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Thread: A Question In Regards To Kain

  1. #1

    A Question In Regards To Kain

    Hello. A stranger on these boards, but no stranger to the LOK Series.

    I have one question.

    What was exactly the whole point of Kain's mission? The idea that I had was that he was bored with the way things were and wanted change, as in restoring the pillars completely and giving back Nosgoth, although not completely, since her innocence was lost. But I've read through various sites that provided major information on the game (as in fan sites and Q&As) and it is said that Raziel, through his choice, allowed Kain to fulfill his destiny and bring back the pillars for the vampires to rule once more.

    So is he really a good guy in all this or a bad guy still? What is exactly his whole point?

  2. #2
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    Good? Bad? The terms are all relative, it depends on your point of view. He wants to restore Nosgoth, but also survive, Beyond that, his motivations are unclear.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by KainFanatic192 View Post
    and it is said that Raziel, through his choice, allowed Kain to fulfill his destiny and bring back the pillars for the vampires to rule once more.
    The only thing Raziel did was purifying Kain at the end of Defiance. The pillars still lie in ruin and Kain's task is not yet fulfilled, yet Raziel's is.

    So is he really a good guy in all this or a bad guy still? What is exactly his whole point?
    He is no good guy or bad guy. Every character in LoK is a different shade of grey.

  4. #4
    I just thought of him as a bad guy turning good when he's trying to restore the pillars and give back Nosgoth, but he could still be a bad guy if he wants to give back the pillars to the vampires.

  5. #5
    Kain is a complicated creature. He starts off with your basic "out for revenge" in Blood Omen 1, which is understandable, but as the series progresses his near complete indifference to the fate of Nosgoth (there are plenty of quotes in Blood Omen 1) turns to what appears to be some actual care. He risks complete expulsion from history to save Raziel, all for the hope that he can change history and break the cycle which leads to the dying Nosgoth of Soul Reaver 1.
    Help out with the effort for a new Legacy of Kain game! (list updated on December 6th)
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  6. #6
    I still live people buwahahaha <cough> ahem sorry hehe.


    The point of Kain's mission in my opinion was at first mere revenge and self preservation, only after the events of Blood Omen did Kain begin to see the bigger picture of what was going on in Nosgoth. We dont know alot about the events after BO and before BO2 (shuffled time line or not) for all we know Kain could have found the chronoplast chamber already and saw the events he needed. Upon seeing the bigger picture he formulated his plan on restoring Nosgoth the way he felt it needed to be.

    As for Raziel he was needed. While it did seem Kain was a bit bored I think he was more bored of waiting for Raziel to show up in his "needed" state. Raziel did need to be around and (I believe) expertly manipulated by Kain to not kill Kain.

    As for good guy bad guy or grey guy hes neither of them and all of them from certain points of view. The thing is in Kain's mind he is doing what he feels is right. That doesnt make him good bad or grey. Kain makes no illusions of his views of his actions or reasons behind them and is quick to drop any moral self posturing.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziel'sRevenge View Post
    He risks complete expulsion from history to save Raziel, all for the hope that he can change history and break the cycle which leads to the dying Nosgoth of Soul Reaver 1.
    Yeah, I always found his genuine concern for Raz strange. He let his other sons die withouta second thought. Maybe it's just the fact that he knows he's pivotal to the future.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by KainFanatic192 View Post
    I just thought of him as a bad guy turning good when he's trying to restore the pillars and give back Nosgoth, but he could still be a bad guy if he wants to give back the pillars to the vampires.
    I think every single character should act in a way he/she thinks is right. Not because it is good or bad.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Linikratyo View Post
    I think every single character should act in a way he/she thinks is right. Not because it is good or bad.
    I suppose so, I guess that makes him an interesting character in my eyes because he's only doing what was right.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by KainFanatic192 View Post
    I suppose so, I guess that makes him an interesting character in my eyes because he's only doing what was right.
    I think every good character should have this type of motivation. Doing what is right.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Linikratyo View Post
    I think every good character should have this type of motivation. Doing what is right.
    I kept on thinking that he didn' t want to trouble Nosgoth no more by restoring the pillars and sacrificing himself, but if he's restoring the pillars only to allow the vampire guardians to reclaim it, then I think it's a bad thing. Still, either way, he does what he is doing right and that's commendable enough.

  12. #12
    good?? bad?? even grey??? what do you think this is??? I've always believed that those labels are an oversimplification which can only work in "star wars" and the like (the fact that "the like" is a vast majority of fictive worlds makes no difference at all)

    What I like about the series is that their characters have their own personal agendas, regardless of goodness or badness as concepts... I guess you can use those labels to certain momentums of the story, but if you think about it, not even Moebius is bad, he thinks he is serving god for goodness sake!!!!

    hahahahahaha... sorry I simple have to agree with Kain telling Raziel to "not be simple"... would you hate me if I say the same to you???

    I also think Kain does care for Raz, based upon the monologue on Defiance before he encounters Moebius talking to Squidy... we don't really know what their relationship was like during the millennium Raz served him as a vampire... but Raz does said "as before" when he declares being Kain's right hand, which can't stopped being significant... don't you think?
    "Truth that's told with bad intent Beats all the Lies you can invent."
    William Blake

  13. #13
    Conclusion: There is no good and evil in the real world. In LoK there is no good and evil. So LoK = realistic in that perspective and that makes the story good.

  14. #14
    You say that returning the Pillars to the Vampires would be a bad thing and therefore make Kain the bad guy? May I ask how you reached such a conclusion?
    History abhors a Paradox - Raziel SR2

  15. #15
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    *Points to Kain's SR1 wasteland empire* Even if the pillarss accounted for some of the decay, the empire was built solely for vampiric supremacy. Humans are cattle, Hylden banished, all other races wiped out. I can't see his new empire being too different.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  16. #16
    The SR1 wasteland wasn't cause by the vampire but the Hylden and the Humans, as Janos said the humans aren't competent to serve. alittle of topic here but the question remains by Ariels speech "you must reunite whats been set asunder". Was that referring to the fragments of Kains soul or between the Vampires/Hylden/Human.

    Kains main agenda was to rule but I think he got wiser and started to realise his own corruption and what was happining to the land. Being a necromantic vampire and each vampire he raises is weaker the one before him as Kain splits his soul, then how does Kain presume to bring about a new Vampire era?

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    That's just Janos being arrogant. And he has a vested interest in convincing Raz of the awesomeness of vampirism. He himself did no better than Mortanius at resisting Hylden influence -in fact, he arguably did worse. Mortanius was able to rebel against the Hylden influence and create Kain, while Janos catastrophically opened the Hylden gate.

    Well, maybe he learned how to create vampires the normal way in the meantime? Or he could just split his soul again, it's not as though the humans are in a position to mount any resistance.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  18. #18
    Disagreed. Vampires are naturally stronger Guardians. It took the Pillars exploding to bits for Janos's body to be possessed at all. Even THEN he continued to resist.

  19. #19
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    He wasn't possessed before then because he was dead.

    Hylden Lord (as Janos): We required the blood of our Ancient enemy,and you delivered Janos Audron

    Note, YOU delivered. He's talking to Raziel, who has nothing to do with the pillar's corruption. Raziel 'delivered' Janos by reviving him, not by doing anything to the pillars.

    Vampires are physically stronger, true, but that just makes them more dangerous Guardians. The Hylden Lord had to be careful not to 'break' Mortanius, so he had more of an opportunity to fight back. Once he possessed the more durable Janos, he could really start doing damage.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  20. #20
    Janos wasn't dead during the hour long interval between Raziel reviving him and the Pillars collapsing. Plus he states "The Binding is failing". How could he magically sense this if he couldn't feel the Hylden Lord's influence trying to get a hold over him?

    If the Pillars didn't collapse the Vampires couldn't have been possessed. If the humans didn't rebel the Pillars most likely wouldn't have collapsed.

  21. #21
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    The Hylden Lord was still busy with Mortanius...his grip wasn't totally secure, as we see Mortanius fighting him in Defiance (and remember, he's been possessed for at least thirty years by this point).

    I don't know about that. Let's say the humans don't rebel. Moebius becomes a vampire. He's formidable enough as a human, but he could do a hell of a lot more damage as a vampire in their inner circle. All he has to do is stab the vampire Ariel. Nupraptor still goes mad, he still corrupts the circle, the pillars still decay.

    And anyway, the Hylden could possess Turel, couldn't they? .

    As for Janos' 'The Binding is failing', it's not that hard to figure out. He can see the grey, corrupted pillars from the room, they were creaking earlier, and they immediately explode after he says it.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dumah's wraith View Post
    I don't know about that. Let's say the humans don't rebel. Moebius becomes a vampire. He's formidable enough as a human, but he could do a hell of a lot more damage as a vampire in their inner circle. All he has to do is stab the vampire Ariel. Nupraptor still goes mad, he still corrupts the circle, the pillars still decay.
    It wasn't Moebius who assassinated Ariel, it was a possessed Mortanius. Mortanius as a vampire would have been extremely hard to possess, so he wouldn't have assassinated Ariel and the Pillars wouldn't have corrupted. Actually Ariel and Nupraptor wouldn't be Guardians in the first place, since those of before the Sarafan Era would still live.

  23. #23
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    Ah, but history takes the path of least resistance, so they'd still die somehow. And I know it was a possessed Mortanius who assasinated Ariel, I was just implying that if he didn't do the assassination, nothing stops Moebius from doing it himself and achieving the same result.

    Mortanius would have been harder to possess, but not impossible. Turel has invaders in his mind, and Raziel comes under Hylden influence in Avernus (glowing green eyes)
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  24. #24
    I thought it was a given that the Ancients are the subject here, not Kain's vampire children, who are pathetic in comparison to the former race. I remember Chris's old quote that even Vorador alone was powerful enough to slaughter any one of the mutated lieutenants in single combat.

    Mortanius is also the Death Guardian, and alone, I imagine, doesn't represent a standard human or even the rest of the Circle of Nine in terms of "possession resistance"

  25. #25
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    And I thought it was a given that we were talking about mental strength, not proficiency in combat. And as far as that goes, Janos loses two of three fights against lesser beings. He beats Raziel, but A) It was the Hylden Lord who was actually fighting, and B) Raziel deliberately spares him. We see him make completely inconsequential resistance to the Hylden Lord in BO2 when he's tossed into the gate. And he loses to six human Sarafan. Yes, they have Moebius' staff, but that didn't stop Kain in the second encounter in defiance.

    Well, anyone could beat the lieut's if they had a meat grinder/furnace handy. I don't think Vorador could beat Rahab if there weren't any convenient windows nearby.

    Regarding Mortanius' resistance, as the death guardian, I'd imagine his possession resistance is far more than most of the rest of the circle, because he deals with that kind of thing. Azimuth and Nupraptor are probably strong against invasion by other minds too.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

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