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Thread: The balance guardian DOES die!

  1. #1

    The balance guardian DOES die!

    So I was just thinking about the "rules" of the world of nosgoth and how the pillars operate. It seems that Kain is born at the moment of Ariel's death. It happens instantaneously, as soon as the current balance guardian dies, the pillars appoint another.

    Kain's death occurs at the beginning of BO1, and one would think his role were transfered to another newborn. Unless the pillars could somehow reverse the polarity upon Kain's revival. But then that would mean that there is someone roaming around nosgoth who WAS the balance guardian for a time, for however long it took Mortanius to revive Kain. Sort of like a failed guardian, I guess.

    It also means that should Ariel be revived, the pillars would have no choice but to let her re-inherit her powers aswell, and leave Kain's role empty. A little food for thought I guess. I'm working on a fanfic so I'm just finding ways to be creative. Any input would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    The Pillars were corrupted at that time, I think because of the corruption no new guardians were born.

  3. #3
    Yes, besides the Pillars being currupt, meaning no Guardian would be born during, I remember reading somewere that after the death of a Guardian, the Circle would remain broken for a time until a new Guardian would be born. It wasn't that instantaneous. I think Kain read this in a book belonging to Willendorf's Library.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrykull View Post
    Yes, besides the Pillars being currupt, meaning no Guardian would be born during, I remember reading somewere that after the death of a Guardian, the Circle would remain broken for a time until a new Guardian would be born. It wasn't that instantaneous. I think Kain read this in a book belonging to Willendorf's Library.
    yes, but we don't see anything of any new time or death guardian being in Nosgoth after Blood Omen and with Kain having still his powers, I think that untill the corruption is over no new guardians are born...

  5. #5
    That's what I said. We should all know that; until the corruption passes, no new Guardians will be born. And that's precisely the change that happens in the end of Defiance: now, new Guardians will be born and Kain or someone has to make vampires out of them since the goal in all this is to return the Pillars to their rightful owners, the vampires.

  6. #6
    don't know how I missed that actually =-/

    well, thanks guys in any case. Question resolved lol

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrykull View Post
    That's what I said. We should all know that; until the corruption passes, no new Guardians will be born. And that's precisely the change that happens in the end of Defiance: now, new Guardians will be born and Kain or someone has to make vampires out of them since the goal in all this is to return the Pillars to their rightful owners, the vampires.
    No not at the end of Defiance! Then KAIN gets purified NOT the Pillars. The Pillars remain corrupt

  8. #8
    But the Guardians are the embodiment of the Pillars, they are simbioticaly bound. So the Pillars also represent the state of mind of their Guardians and therefore you can't say that for sure! Supposedly now the Pillars could rise again or some sort.

  9. #9
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    The Pillars are totally destroyed by young Kain's refusal. Elder Kain getting purified means nothing. Pillars corrupted is one thing; Pillars destroyed into a pile a smoldering rubble and broken remnants of their columns is quite another.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    The Pillars are totally destroyed by young Kain's refusal. Elder Kain getting purified means nothing. Pillars corrupted is one thing; Pillars destroyed into a pile a smoldering rubble and broken remnants of their columns is quite another.
    true, though Kain will have to find a way to restore the binding: with or without the pillars.

  11. #11
    There really is no reason to restore the binding past the blind rage of Elder God worshippers. Don't forget its the vampires that started the war. We don't know that the Hylden did ANYTHING evil, really, past casting a self-defensive curse on their attackers. Though the feud between them wouldn't just go away after so much agony, I'm sure. I guess one party will have to disappear.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazame View Post
    There really is no reason to restore the binding past the blind rage of Elder God worshippers. Don't forget its the vampires that started the war. We don't know that the Hylden did ANYTHING evil, really, past casting a self-defensive curse on their attackers. Though the feud between them wouldn't just go away after so much agony, I'm sure. I guess one party will have to disappear.
    really read The Latter Days. The binding is a way to restore THE LAND and without it Nosgoth is a wasteland

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    The Pillars are totally destroyed by young Kain's refusal. Elder Kain getting purified means nothing. Pillars corrupted is one thing; Pillars destroyed into a pile a smoldering rubble and broken remnants of their columns is quite another.
    And you know everything? We haven't seen any evidence, so none of us can claim anything.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrykull View Post
    And you know everything? We haven't seen any evidence, so none of us can claim anything.
    Oh just take a look:


    really Pillars are destroyed = evidence enough

  15. #15
    lol how does that apply here? In that time Kain was corrupted, so obviously the Pillars are destroyed. How is that evidence to anything??? geez...

  16. #16
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    The Kain that is healed of corruption is the Elder Kain from Soul Reaver 1's era. That era is far, far later than the moment this screen shot was taken. Healing that Kain in the past doesn't mean anything to restoring the Pillars then, nor certainly even in the future, as Kain is still from the time far after the Pillars' destruction. His younger self is still corrupted and still damns the Pillars (as seen in Defiance before Elder Kain even wakes up in the Demon Dimension) to total ruin. We SEE the big bang happen with the Pillars utterly destroyed in Defiance, still before Kain is healed. Why would healing the Kain from thousands of years later matter to restoring the Pillars?

    And hold up:

    Quote Originally Posted by Linikratyo View Post
    really read The Latter Days. The binding is a way to restore THE LAND and without it Nosgoth is a wasteland
    The Latter Days is a fan fic, Linikrayto. Fan fics and cannon are far different matters. You can't pull a fan fic out of the fryer and say here, look, this proves such and such.

    No, the Binding was set up to keep the Hylden from returning using the Hylden gate. The Pillars used all manner of energies from the land of Nosgoth to do this. Once they were destroyed, the land seems unable to channel its energies properly again, so corruption and decay sets in. However, this doesn't mean that the land needs the Pillars restored and the binding as well to be restored, itself. There was a time before the Pillars were ever raised that the land, presumably, got along quite fine. Moebius described the Pillars decaying and the world decaying with them in such a way as the two elements being possibly linked. Rather, Moebius' illusion told Raziel this, so it might not be totally accurate, but let's just say for a moment it is. It may just be that the remaining parts of the Pillars need to be removed so the land can channel its own resources itself again. However, the binding -- as in the lock on dimensional travel from the Demon Realm -- really isn't needing to be restored for the land to heal. Kain does need to restore the world from decaying. Restoring the Pillars is not necessarily the means to do this, nor in my mind should it be. After all, the Pillars were raised to keep the Hylden out, period. But their link to the land and, as we can see, the land's subsequent fate to their own, was completely irresponsible on the Ancients' part. They turned the natural world into what amounts to a being that once thrived on its own, to one that's controlled by a parasite. That parasite being the Pillars. The land now either thrives, or dies with them. Irresponsible and foolish. And, lets not forget, it was the Ancients that started the wars and persecuted the Hylden, then banished them to a realm that turned them all into deranged, deformed things. I'd say, if anything, Kain has to find a way to restore the world without these parasitic edifices, and to find a way that the different realms can coexist without anymore war, or breaches where Demons, or Hylden, come through to destroy things/take revenge. As Kain says quite eloquently, though, he could "restore the world, perhaps, but never again could I give Nosgoth back her innocence." The sins of the past can't simply be swept under the rug, and just raising the Pillars again, making the land live, or die by their linkage, and/or restoring the binding that does nothing but continue the atrocity against the Hylden race, is NOT the right way to go about things. It's only perpetuating the wrongs of the past further and, as we know in our own world, only will inevitably lead to a repeat of these events, as history does repeat itself. It does so, especially, when the same wrongs are repeated. I can foresee a Nogoth restored with Pillars raised again, and new Guardians, and over time, all forget what happened here, and then, WOOPS! Here comes another murder of another Balance Guardian the mind Guardian loves, and look out! Repeat City!

    Yeah... There's got to be a better way than this.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazame View Post
    We don't know that the Hylden did ANYTHING evil, really
    The Mass, the Mass, the Mass.

  18. #18
    Escaton, I meant BEFORE they were banished. Everything afterward is basically an act of revenge against those who wrongly condemned them - there is no evil in that, though its not nessesarily benevolent either.

    And if you're refering to them building the device to USE the mass (which takes place before their banishment) this too happens during the war. Once a war ignites, obviously all gloves are off and you must do anything in your power to keep yourself from getting wiped out. Though this can't really be used as evidence, the device was never finished while the construction of the pillars were. One could argue that the ancient vampires attacked first and hence has more time and resources to mount their attack.

    Otherwise, we don't have any evidence that the Hylden did anything wrong, or deserving of the war. What we might surmise about the ancient vampires, however, is that they might have ignited the war because the Hylden did not believe in their god, the elder. However this too falls short in credibility because the humans did not worship the same god either. So it really could have gone either way. There might have been something the Hylden did to instigate.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hylden View Post
    The Latter Days is a fan fic, Linikratyo. Fan fics and cannon are far different matters. You can't pull a fan fic out of the fryer and say here, look, this proves such and such.
    I meant those as two separate points. I know The Latter Days is a fanfic and not the true story, but it shows a very interesting ending which I think would be a very good ending for LoK. I though don't mention the point I want to make to Shrykull, because that would spoil the whole ending of The Latter Days for everyone on the forums.

    No, the Binding was set up to keep the Hylden from returning using the Hylden gate. The Pillars used all manner of energies from the land of Nosgoth to do this. Once they were destroyed, the land seems unable to channel its energies properly again, so corruption and decay sets in. However, this doesn't mean that the land needs the Pillars restored and the binding as well to be restored, itself. There was a time before the Pillars were ever raised that the land, presumably, got along quite fine.
    Okay perhaps I should say A way of restoring the land not THE and have you ever looked to the murals? You might notice that there is no colourful land full of life. Only mountains and rocks, perhaps a bit the wasteland that is seen in Soul Reaver, so you should also consider that the Pillars might have actually brought life to the land.

    and if you don't think restoring the land would (temporarily) restore it watch the non-cannon ending of Blood Omen:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7KuXvmyEYg

  20. #20
    Can't the pillars be used to seal the gate with the hylden on the correct side? The pillars were created to banish the hylden, but the guardians were able to use them for a lot of things over the centuries. I mean someone blew a great gaping hole between the dimensions and so far the pillars have been the only thing that have been able to close it. The pillars have been crucial to the story from the beginning and their ruin has been a constant reminder of nosgoths demise. Seeing them restored would be symbolic that nosgoth had finally been healed.
    "If events are matched closely enough to course, they have a way of restructuring themselves to familiar outcomes." ~ Scorpius, Farscape

  21. #21
    Although I like the winged race, I believe what happened between them and the Hylden was similar to the Crusaders who spread christianity, killing those who refused to believe. I am totally against that and so it would put me on the side of the Hylden until further knowlege of their history. From what is told in Defiance, this was the case: the Hylden refused to believe in the Elder God and all the Weel of Fate bull***** and for that a war was ignited.

  22. #22
    Common guys, we know there was something more going on then who started it. It was a conflict and a conflict usually starts because of two fractions fighting. Not one starting. We don't know how the Hylden refused the Vampire religion. Perhaps they started making fun of vampire pilgrims coming to them to spread the word. A fight broke out and eventually you have a war.

  23. #23
    How is that much different than what I stated?

  24. #24
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    Well, first of all, a new guardian isn't born until Kain's soul returns to the pillars, and Mortanius snagged it before it could, so no new guardian was born.

    The Hylden, AS FAR AS WE KNOW, were victims. Maybe they did something to deserve it, but we can't assume without evidence. The Device doesn't count because it was started after the war had begun, and the Builder repented before he finished it.

    Raising the pillars seems to have been an incredibly vindictive act on the part of the Architects. As far as I can tell, they linked them to the health of the land because they were offering the Hylden a choice similar to Kain's at the end of BO1. Damn yourselves, or damn the land. And the entire series is based around that choice being unfair. Kain wants to find an 'edge of the coin' and so do they. Personally, I think Kain should either break the link between pillars and land or restore them with the Hylden in Nosgoth, just to keep the actual demons out.

    As regards the land's health before the pillars, when you are painting a prophetic mural, you don't pay much attention to flora and fauna. Rock is easier, quicker, and more dramatic. You want to focus on the characters.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrykull View Post
    How is that much different than what I stated?
    that the vampires and the hylden are both to blame.

    As regards the land's health before the pillars, when you are painting a prophetic mural, you don't pay much attention to flora and fauna. Rock is easier, quicker, and more dramatic. You want to focus on the characters.
    sure, sure. I don't say the Pillars did give life to the land, but that they might. I just want to say that the Pillars might not be so negative as you guys start claiming.

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