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Thread: Temporal distortion during SR1?

  1. #1

    Temporal distortion during SR1?

    Shouldn't there be one when Raziel dukes it out with Kain for the first time? Its Soul Reaver vs. Raziel, and so before the reaver breaks, it seems as if the gloves would be off.. meaning Raziel just might have been able to change history at that moment, such as killing Kain even before SR2, and not shattering the soul reaver.. ever. Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Yes, there should also have been one in Blood Omen when Kain battles William.
    The distortion effect simply hadn't been come up with yet for either game. None of the fatalism and destiny stuff was imagined until SR2's original concept was revised.

  3. #3
    Thing is, I'm not so much worrying about the distortion as I am about the actual possibility that Raziel might change history.. It could still happen, you know. Time loops itself around and around. In the loop in which we played the game, nothing happened. But.. dun dun dun!

  4. #4
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    Actually, I think there still wouldn't have been the vertigo at that point because there wasn't another Soul Reaver there. I think there needs to be a Soul Reaver itself there and not just Raziel and the Soul Reaver. I'm not really sure how it all works.

  5. #5
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    Yeah, there wouldn't be a distortion in SR1, just like there isn't a distortion constantly with Raziel having his own soul bound to his arm. That same soul is in the blade. He would need to have another one in the room in close proximity for a distortion to occur.

    As far as the distortion effect being absent in BO1: first, it doesn't really matter, considering that the shot is overhead and a bit further from the action, and yeah, it hadn't been thought of yet, probably (or could be implemented with the graphics, were it to have been thought of). The paradoxical change when time strains to correct the monumental change is still there as a loud rumble and shaking of things, just as it is when the paradox shatters the sword in SR1, or when Raziel refuses to kill Kain in SR2, etc. Of course, that same rumble and shaking happens after every Guardian or boss death in BO1 too lol, so yeah, the imagination has to be used a little more to tie the visuals together with later things in BO1.

    Oh, and to the point, there are no distortion effects in both times Raziel faces going into the sword in Defiance either, further evidence you need two Reavers, not just Raziel and one of his Wraith Blade versions to cause a distortion. I will state again that my view is you need two Wraith blades, both with free will and the potential intent to feed on and destroy the other, to cause a paradoxical moment like that, where anything can happen and time is in flux. Raziel, while having free will, isn't an unfettered, pure soul. He's not yet the Wraith Blade.

  6. #6
    The reason that you use in your last paragraph Hylden is moot because there ARE two wraith blades during the end of defiance. Just like in SR2, when Raziel's soul is hovering both in and out of the blade, the distortion occurs long enough for Kain to change history. In Defiance, the exact same circumstances are set up again, yet no distortion takes place. I've always held that it is simply because the writers chose not to show it, because then you'd have to go through another explanation in defiance, much like in SR2. They try to make each game self contained that way, so that newcomers to the series aren't bombarded with nostalgic information that they cannot understand.

    Now your theory holds that it should be the two wraith blades, instead of Raziel and a wraith blade, that cause the distortion. Before I begin, lets just disect the term wraith blade into two distinct names. One being wraith blade, the other being soul reaver. Because there are never two wraith blades together in the game, rather just 1 and 1. My theory holds that it is Raziel and Soul Reaver that creates the paradox. Yours is that it is Soul Reaver and Wraith Blade (or two soul reavers). It obviously cannot be Raziel and Wraith Blade, because a) the game wouldn't work and b) the Soul Reaver is in "between" these two so logically would have to be affected as well.

    If your theory holds true, I find there to be a discrepancy in SR2 when Raziel goes into the blade (or almost anyway). The whole point of that "edge of the coin" business was that Kain knew there was just a minute amount of time that the distortion would take place. As stated before: when Raziel hovers both inside and outside of the blood reaver. However, if all it takes is a soul reaver and a wraith blade, then Kain should be able to wait it out confidently until Raziel were to be in the blade completely. Why? Because the wraith blade would stay back and just sit there, as it did in SR1 before Raziel grabbed it. It wouldn't go anywhere, at least not fast, and so as soon as the Blood Reaver would become the Soul Reaver, a distortion would take place and remain there for as long as the Soul Reaver were to remain in that room.

    Now I'm acknowledging the fact that it would defeat the purpose of saving raziel from the blade if we were to have him sucked in fully anyway. But what I'm saying is that the way Raziel describes it, it really felt like he was saying that the distortion occurs as a result of RAZIEL himself being both inside and out. As if the distortion would cease to exist as soon as he were fully assimulated into the blade. Raziel and Soul Reaver, as opposed to Wraith Blade and Soul Reaver.

    Its still a thoery nonetheless, becuase it is never specified in the game exactly which two components are used. "Raziel" is the only hint given, but as we know there are many versions of him.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazame View Post
    The reason that you use in your last paragraph Hylden is moot because there ARE two wraith blades during the end of defiance.
    but maybe you see it out of Kain's point of view and you don't have the effect...

  8. #8
    History cannot change during the fight between Raziel and Kain in SR1 even with a reaver paradox no matter how many times history loops (except possibly an enormous fatal paradox that erases all events in all games).
    If the soul reaver is not destroyed here then the wrath blade is not released from the physical blade, as such Raziel never bonds with it and therefore it cannot exist to cause any of the events in the series. The soul reaver's existance, creation and paradoxical powers are all the same thing and inviolable in the timeline. No matter what changes are created in the timeline by the reaver it's own existance is assured. Kain's doomed empire will always occur simply to bring it into existance just as Raziel cannot escape being drawn into the blade. SR2's paradox may have been massive enough to release the hylden but the timeline essentially swallowed them up and corrected itself then carried on.

    PS. Maybe there was no distortion when he entered the blade in defiance because he was not fighting it. As it happened more quickly there was no time for the distortion. Also by the time a distortion could occur the decision was already made, he had already tricked Kain into impaling him.

  9. #9
    I don't think it really matters how many soulreavers, wraith blades, reaver of souls, blood reavers etc are there. I think what is happening is the potential for the one spirit needed to purify the blade/kain and eventually nosgoth to set things right to be entombed is what is causing the paradox.
    In Soul reaver when Kain broke the Sword over Raziel this threat was instantly nullified as there was no longer a tomb. The soul (Wraith Raziel) could still achieve what it needed to.

    Soul Reaver 2 at the cathedral: The did not take place until the reaver had been repaired.
    The scene where Raziel was supposed to kill Kain, he then would have been drawn into the blade by his older dimented self. Entombed and no one to wield the sword Time would be able to correct what was undone. (The older dimented self might in time gain consciousness only to be drawn in by the younger version)

    When Kain meets Janos: The blade does not yet have a soul imprisoned in it but the older self recognizes what it is. Potential for being entombed = paradox which was ended by Janos saving Raziel.

    The scene with Raziel killing the Sarafan warriors: This could have been one of two things. Either Mobius was still lingering around with his staff or the elder soul was not sure which one needed to enter the blade. The one it was attached to or the one encased in the human body. One the human version was disposed of you got the potential to be entombed again.

    I forget some of the other events but each had the potential for time to strain to find yet another means to settle events should Raziel be entombed. Raziel outside of the blade until the end of Defiance was simply the easiest way for this to be achieved.

  10. #10
    Actually perhaps the distortions only occur when Raziel is consciously and willingly attempting to rebel against the course of history, which he doesn't do at all in Soul Reaver. In Defiance history is never threatened once - the characters all follow out the new timeline as written at the end of SR2, and Raziel never really attempts to change it even with Kain's goading.

    There's no excuse for Blood Omen 1 though. Kain can definitely perceive the distortions and I bet anyone near Raziel, when they happen, can do so as well - he even comments on them in SR2 ("Not (my sorcery), Raziel, yours. You hold all the cards"). If the game is ever remade, this ought to be added in.

  11. #11
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    Hm, I hate it when I forget something...

    Forget what I said about there needing to be two Wraith Blades. No, and I will go back to my original theory on this that there simply are two Raziels intent on destroying, potentially, themselves. For, there's one moment when there aren't two Wraith Blades causing the temporal distortion. It's a briefer moment, but it's when Raziel is impaled by the blade, Wraith Blade forcing it into him, at the end of SR2. There are only two Raziel's there. Raziel the Wraith, and Raziel the Wraith Blade. It's only when an equal amount of Raziel inside and outside of the Reaver blade, both equally fighting each other, that the distortion begins and Kain has his moment to pull out the sword.

    In Avernus, when Kain and Raziel clash, Raziel fights as much as he can to stay out of the blade, eventually by striking into Kain's chest and pulling out the Heart of Darkness. There wasn't any distortion. Same scenario, almost, but the equal amount of Raziel's fighting each other never got to that level. At the end of Defiance, Raziel willingly enters the sword. No fight against his fate, thus no distortion. It's the fight against, where both souls could potentially either destroy themselves -- which one cannot destroy its own self, of course -- or destroy time's flow, that we have the paradoxical moment, distortion, and then the paradox that time has to course around itself.

    Yeah, stupid me for omitting this crucial moment when talking about this stuff...

  12. #12
    Then how about during SR2 when Raziel first picks up the Reaver before Moebius shows up in william's chapel? Raziel need not fight himself, and everything went down as history was written. Moebius was not meant to die at that moment, and so he did not. And we KNOW when Raziel fights himself because a) if he succeeds, the time reshuffling occurs and b) raziel has those awkward twists and pulls to his body, as if he is trying to stop the reaver from flying out of his hands. He was completely fine in that scene however, and even willingly embraced the reaver to brandish it against moebius.

    I believe that moebius was always there to have a talk with raziel at that time, just like kain was had always fought william in BO1, regardless of who the victor was. I know you believe the same Hylden, out of a different post from way back. So I don't think it could be justified to say that Moebius originally was not there, and so Raziel was actually fighting AGAINST time to fight/scare moebius at that moment. He would surely have done so anyway. But I don't believe he was fighting himself or history in any way.

  13. #13
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    Well, in that instance, and in all instances we see the temporal distortion already happening before Raziel does anything, there are 3 of his souls there. One's already inside the blade, one is on his arm, and one is himself. I believe that the paradoxical moment happens for time when two of Raziel's souls that can devour souls potentially try to destroy each other, and for these moments, because it's like having majorly increased the causality effect, having 3 of his souls which can all choose to destroy one of themselves is many times more serious to flow around. The probability of them being able to do so ups actually exponentially, and time really goes into flux. I would imagine that if we were ever privy to seeing four of Raziel's souls (those that devour souls) present in the same space and time, time would simply give up the ghost and be life, forget it, I quit You may have hit one something with the distortion should always be present thing. Perhaps the paradox is always happening with two Raziel's, one on his arm and one being himself, bound to one another, but the physical effects aren't felt, or visible. Like, only a little bit of time's own dilemma of how to potentially course around the event occurs, not enough to be a problem, or to be physically felt. Raziel is always, apparently, shrouded from Moebius, so this wave, or paradoxical distortion constantly has to be present in some way. However, things start rocking when the two versions of himself start attacking and fighting each other, and when an equal amount of the younger version begins winning against the older version, i. e. an equal amount of Raziel and his Wraith Blade self were inside and outside of the blade at the end of SR2, then the physical waves of distortion get to the point they can be felt. Reality itself starts to bend outward through time and space from this moment, until this moment is resolved. But, you add in another version of the same soul and now you have probabilities for what might happen increasing to the exponent of 3, and time has to calculate a course constantly around their meeting through time and reality that flows along with time, so all distorts a bit.

    Essentially, we're narrowing down a more specific definition of the actuality of these paradoxes and how they start, what triggers them, all the way through to the aftermath of them, but we're only able to speculate so much. We're therefore splitting hairs on these specifics, but it's interesting to think about, nonetheless.

  14. #14
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    Personally, I think it's just a gameplay thing. The developers forgot to put in distortion in Defiance.
    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  15. #15
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    Balogna The developers wouldn't forget something like that. Though a few of the cut scenes could and should have been clearer on other visual points.

  16. #16
    Sure they would, or rather could. The cinematic team was shaken around between SR2 and Defiance. For instance, while he created just about everyone in SR2, Dan Cabuco didn't personally model any of the Defiance characters, they were all remade by others (which is why Kain and Raziel look far worse than they did in the prequel, in my view) since he was moved up to become the game's art director. And the art and animation groups were completely mucked around.

  17. #17
    Its fine guys, I figured out a way to stay true to the story! just degaus your monitor when killing William or finishing defiance!

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    One thing that confuses me about all this is... the Kain at the start of Defiance... from reading the timeline explanations, is it correct to interpret that he's been there for 30 years (since he went back in time to the time of his birth, when the pillars were corrupted, etc.) or did he just use a time streamer device to go forward 30 or something? I guess playing the end of SR2 would help clarify this, or does it?

    Basically, at what point did it go from the Blood Reaver being shattered in SR1 to Kain suddenly having it again in Defiance? Where does he go to get it?

  19. #19
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    This is complicated. I generally leave these explanations to Hylden.

    But...suffice it to say he gets it at the end of SR2. At that point, it's long before the sword shatters in SR1, from the sword's point of view. How much of the games have you played? I'm not sure how much to say.

    I'd be apathetic if I weren't so lethargic-Peter Griffin

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyciol View Post
    Basically, at what point did it go from the Blood Reaver being shattered in SR1 to Kain suddenly having it again in Defiance? Where does he go to get it?
    The Blood Reaver doesn't get shattered at all, that is the Soul Reaver that get's shattered in SR1.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazame View Post
    Its fine guys, I figured out a way to stay true to the story! just degaus your monitor when killing William or finishing defiance!
    the room actually shakes when you kill him

    I think it is the sense of misplacement that Raziel felt that is animated through the shaking of the room and in the Defiance scene you don't see it out of Raziel's point of view.

  22. #22
    Thinking only about the time Raziel almost enters the blade in avernus, remember that Kain had to wait in SR2 for the exact moment of the displacement to happen, maybe it just didn't occur in avernus because Raz takes Kain's heart out before being both, inside and outside the blade.

    About the ending of Defiance, I would agree with Chocolaterob in that maybe Raziel enters faster, due to his willingness and so no time for the paradox to be felt... though I very much like the simple idea of not making this cryptic for new players too...
    "Truth that's told with bad intent Beats all the Lies you can invent."
    William Blake

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazame View Post
    Thing is, I'm not so much worrying about the distortion as I am about the actual possibility that Raziel might change history.. It could still happen, you know. Time loops itself around and around. In the loop in which we played the game, nothing happened. But.. dun dun dun!
    OOH! I like that idea! There's a theory that the entire timeline of our real-life universe repeats itself over and over, and our souls do everything again and again, which accounts for deja vu. Possibly if we subconsciously (or--erm--sub"spiritually") remember things that have happened to us before we could gradually make little changes to history (e.g. In the next universe Hitler doesn't become an antichrist and kill trillions of people, or Bush doesn't get elected, or LOK games sell many more copies, etc.) Perhaps Raziel and Kain could contrive some new wild plan in a brand new loop that would yet change history again.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazame View Post
    Its fine guys, I figured out a way to stay true to the story! just degaus your monitor when killing William or finishing defiance!
    Works for me

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ghostlion88 View Post
    OOH! I like that idea! There's a theory that the entire timeline of our real-life universe repeats itself over and over, and our souls do everything again and again, which accounts for deja vu. Possibly if we subconsciously (or--erm--sub"spiritually") remember things that have happened to us before we could gradually make little changes to history (e.g. In the next universe Hitler doesn't become an antichrist and kill trillions of people, or Bush doesn't get elected, or LOK games sell many more copies, etc.) Perhaps Raziel and Kain could contrive some new wild plan in a brand new loop that would yet change history again.
    This actually happens in the Xernosaga series? The whole premise of the game, once it becomes evident, is that the world repeats time and time again through time, and everytime the universe restarts itself, there are small tiny distortions in people's decisions. Only in this way does the plot actually move forward, and the actual Xenosaga game trilogy is about the 'LAST' loop. That is to say, the loop that unfolds in such a way that Wilhelm, the main antagonist, never ends up being able to restart the universe. Hope thats not ruining too much. Anyway, the Xenosaga animated series is basically a 12 episode anime that retells the story of the games... except it takes place within a different temporal loop. So some of the characters that were on the protagonist's side are actually against the protagonist, and so on and so forth. Its an intriguing concept, and quite interesting to watch and study differences and similarities.

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