View Poll Results: Sleeperhold or Blackjack or Both?

Voters
43. You may not vote on this poll
  • Blackjack only

    37 86.05%
  • Sleeperhold only

    0 0%
  • Both

    6 13.95%

Thread: Sleeperhold vs Blackjack

Sleeperhold vs Blackjack

  1. #1

    Sleeperhold vs Blackjack

    I just thought of this, why not have Garrett (or whoever is the protagonist) do a sleeperhold on enemies instead of smashing them over the head with a blackjack. Apparently its not that easy to knock some out but blunt force which is why I think a sleeperhold would be better. I remember my crazy friend demonstrating it to me and I began to black out within seconds lol. Plus most guards in the thief games have helmets so it would also be more realistic.

    Blackjacking has always been too easy anyways. Every time I play I find myself knocking all the guards out then I have free run of the place. With the sleeperhold you would need to get right behind them, and have the time to put them out because its not instentanious.

    Personally I think its much better. Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Theres actually already been a discussion on this from a few weeks ago...

    Check it out http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=109606

    Personally I would vote to stick with the blackjack. A choke hold would be some kind of cinematic takedown, and I've found that kind of takes away from the immersion. If your not carefuly you can actually screw up hitting people with the blackjack, and I think that helps add to the tension of trying to get close and knock someone out instead of just slipping by.
    This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment. Remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

  3. #3
    I supose to keep the blackjack would be ok, only if it is more difficult to use.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Albi
    I supose to keep the blackjack would be ok, only if it is more difficult to use.
    I thought the way the had it in T1 and 2 was pretty solid (I wasn't a fan of having it auto raise in TDS). How would you suggest making it harder?
    This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment. Remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

  5. #5
    I'm unsure really. Perhaps you have blackjack immune characters such as helmet wearing guards, heavies. Inaility to blackjack from the front. Thats all I got but has anyone else have any ideas?

  6. #6
    Quoting myself from the previous thread:
    Originally Posted by DJ Riff
    It [BJ'ing] should be easy IMO. It's all about balance. If you're going for combat, It'll be loud and you risk that your opponent will flee for help and/or set off the alarm. If you take your time to find a hiding place from where you can aim for the head with an arrow, you are rewarded as your opponent won't run away, but it's still loud and messy. If you have even more patience to sneak up on him from behind, you are rewarded as you can get rid of your opponent quickly and silently, but you still have to hide a body. If you manage to sneak past him, you just have no problems at all. So, making blackjacking more difficult and unreliable you just make killing comparatively more attractive.

    I think two things are enough to make blackjacking less cheat-like:
    1. Reliable BJ'ing from behind only. You still can BJ into the face, but it should be as difficult as 'Aerial BJ' in first two games: you need to jump out of the shadow and hit at the same time otherwise an AI will see your blackjack at close distance and dodge the attack.
    2. If the guard is aware of your presence before he was blinded by a flashbomb, he will swing his sword in random directions making it diffucult to sneak up on him for BJ.
    I don't like the idea of choking hold mostly because it will take the control from the player for a significant amount of time (that's what I didn't like in Hitman).

    Originally Posted by The Atrophy
    I wasn't a fan of having it auto raise in TDS
    Just crouch and hit their butt. No auto-raise, no helpful body placement, no death animation, just weird ragdoll.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3,518
    It's a game, so the blackjack works 100% of the time.

    It's like how in real life when you shoot at a car with a gun, 99.999% of the time, you won't cause it to catastrophically explode. But games and movies do this because it's fun and entertaining.

    I don't mind having AI who'll look over their shoulders when they hear running footsteps behind them to prevent sprinting-jacks.

    I wouldn't mind having to hit AI on the head instead of their feet, and not having the game automatically line the shot up for me.

    I wouldn't mind guards waking up their buddies who they think just passed out in the middle of the hall since there's a wine bottle next to them.

    I'd rather have improvements to the challenge of blackjacking come from the AI side of things, instead of having a different weapon/technique to explain its effectiveness, or nerfing it unnecessarily.
    signature image
    signature image

  8. #8
    Theres are ways of giving player control during a choke. Perhaps you can pull and push the victim around and cancel the choke if you want.

    I agree with you hypevosa somwhat but some changes to the way you knock someone out would be nice. Also knocked out guards (however it is done) should wake up after a certain amount of time, no doubt. That puts pressure on the player to be quicker and would be insentive to leave a guard alone.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Body zones and a blackjack. That should be adequate when the ol' helms aren't neutering it. Less gas weapons, too, in all-human maps.

  10. #10
    Body zones?

    I think it would be complicated to try limit certain items on cetain maps but perhaps make gas weapons highly expensive. They are probably the most overpowered and usefull items so it would make sense.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Albi
    Also knocked out guards (however it is done) should wake up after a certain amount of time, no doubt. That puts pressure on the player to be quicker and would be insentive to leave a guard alone.
    Thief player? QUICKER?! o_0

    You're clearly punishing the player for leaving the guard alive - good way to encourage killing or exploiting the engine. If a guard wakes up, it should have nearly zero negative consequences for player: a shallow investigation near that place (good distraction event) or just a guard going back to his duty or even to have a rest. Of course, if he wakes up in a pile of bodies, his reaction will be different, but it's another issue.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Originally Posted by Albi
    Body zones?

    I think it would be complicated to try limit certain items on cetain maps but perhaps make gas weapons highly expensive. They are probably the most overpowered and usefull items so it would make sense.
    You have to hit the head on lower difficulties, the back of the head on higher difficulties, and the base of the skull on Master difficulty. The animation for the blackjack should be adjusted so the arc is not overhead, but swinging right to left at a natural angle as if drawing a line through the right ear to the left shoulder if the target AI is standing in the right position relative to Garrett.


    Limiting items is not anymore complicated than the older titles and FMs, unless one adds open-world, and then it screws everything up. If the maps are self-contained but much larger, then there will have to be limits on what Garrett can purchase and then no excessive amounts placed around the map to find. If it's open-world, then Garrett will have to have limits on what he can carry, while the world placement of items is planned as usual.

  13. #13
    Yeah I forgot about limiting item capacity. I am assuming it will be open world though.

    I think trying to accurately blackjack someone in a small target area will be pretty dam hard, escpecially in a first person perspective.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by DJ Riff
    Thief player? QUICKER?! o_0

    You're clearly punishing the player for leaving the guard alive - good way to encourage killing or exploiting the engine. If a guard wakes up, it should have nearly zero negative consequences for player: a shallow investigation near that place (good distraction event) or just a guard going back to his duty or even to have a rest. Of course, if he wakes up in a pile of bodies, his reaction will be different, but it's another issue.
    Agreed. I think it would make sense for guards to be able to be woken up, but only by other guards, not after a set amount of time. I also think that guards who are woken up shouldn't go into supercrazypwn search mode. Even if they saw you before they were blackjacked, chances are after getting hit on the head your not going to remember much

    But yeah, I don't necessarily think that giving guards the ability to revive thier knocked out comrades would support more lethal action. There are still way more consequences to killing a guard, he screams, leaves blood and you still have a body to worry about. If a guard were to find a corpse I would assume it would raise greater alarm than someone who is knocked out. I mean it could definitely make n00bs think killing it better, but for most it could probably make sneaking by a better option. What do you guys think?

    Actually while we are on the subject, I also want to express a wish I've had since Thief one. Wouldn't it be nice if guards didn't automatically know a person was knocked out if you put them on a bed?
    This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment. Remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Originally Posted by Albi
    Yeah I forgot about limiting item capacity. I am assuming it will be open world though.

    I think trying to accurately blackjack someone in a small target area will be pretty dam hard, escpecially in a first person perspective.
    It's not as difficult if the more horizontal swing of the arm puts it in the zone for more of the arc than the usual overhead bonking swing that would only hit the zone if the AI was looking down. Also, when swinging the blackjack while moving forward, Garrett shouldn't slow down quite as much as he has in the games, especially if it was only to increase the difficulty artificially. Ballplayers lose little to no speed when running forward and twisting in mid-stride to throw a ball back behind them, and if the slowing down was just to balance gameplay and make blackjacking harder, then body zones negate that need since they increase the difficulty overall.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,157
    I usually find hitting specific areas with a melee weapon in a video game to be somewhat annoying. It would be curious that this representation of a master thief would be less adept in some way at doing something that he's done for years than I actually would be if I tried it myself. Having what the swing hits determined entirely by facing direction, as in a video game, isn't well-suited to precision blows. But I'd be willing to give it a try.

    Other than that, save our beloved blackjack. We, and therefore presumably the designers unless they're muppets, know how blackjacking works when combined with all the other elements of Thief. Therefore we can be more confident about blackjacking than we can be about an alternative. I'm in favour of being careful rather than being brave. Some people will probably take that to mean I just want a remake of Thief 2
    Follow the fortunes of the Thi4f Forum!

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    7,632
    Originally Posted by ToMegaTherion
    I usually find hitting specific areas with a melee weapon in a video game to be somewhat annoying. It would be curious that this representation of a master thief would be less adept in some way at doing something that he's done for years than I actually would be if I tried it myself. Having what the swing hits determined entirely by facing direction, as in a video game, isn't well-suited to precision blows. But I'd be willing to give it a try.
    It's not melee if you're not fighting, and the blackjack's not a melee weapon, but I know how the term's been adopted for that use, but anyway the animation should be tuned to make the most out of it while looking simple and graceful and "correct". If it was even more "correct", partial blows to the zone could rock the AI, or drop them to their knee(s), with a delayed shout. To make it feel like Garrett's doing what he's really good at at the player's behest, it would have to be automated, but in the sense of animation doing what the player failed to, not the AI posing for the player. It would be like a crude takedown animation in feel, and I would hope the devs wouldn't go for cinematic kewlness but just adjust the angle and distance on a spline, and quickly, and maybe back to the point the automation took over for the player, or halfway, in case the player was intending to move or make a move in the direction they were facing when the automation took over. It should be subtle and supportive, not take from player-skill too much, and not feel like a cheat. And hopefully they wouldn't take too much time messing with band-aid fixes. If we have Garrett going prone, then we need AIs that can attack him effectively if they can get at him at all, so going down on a knee could already be in place and recycled (and tweaking would be less work that a full animation), and if we have drunken AIs already, then a rocked AI animation could go into a clip of existing idle-fidgeting motion (like the one of a tired guard rubbing the back of his neck in TDS) into a combat stance, giving the player a small window to strike again or run off.

    Originally Posted by ToMegaTherion
    Other than that, save our beloved blackjack. We, and therefore presumably the designers unless they're muppets, know how blackjacking works when combined with all the other elements of Thief. Therefore we can be more confident about blackjacking than we can be about an alternative. I'm in favour of being careful rather than being brave. Some people will probably take that to mean I just want a remake of Thief 2
    Haha! That old chestnut.

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by ToMegaTherion
    Some people will probably take that to mean I just want a remake of Thief 2
    Well, considering Thief 2 was the pinnacle of Thief gameplay, at least you would know a remake would be fun But if they take lots of inspiration from TMA and progress it even further in a positive way (keeping what works while refining some aspects) then Thief 4 will be amazing.
    This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment. Remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

  19. #19
    If EM would like help on anything they've made so far, we'd be more than happy to offer feedback. Might help us avoid talking about the same things over and over

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by The Atrophy
    Actually while we are on the subject, I also want to express a wish I've had since Thief one. Wouldn't it be nice if guards didn't automatically know a person was knocked out if you put them on a bed?
    Yes, I am all for improving interactiveness by using creativity. Not only is it already a part of Thief, but it works so well for it.

    This is just one example of many improvements that could be made. (along those same lines)

    I think everyone is on the ball here, we love the Blackjack for obvious reasons but it is a little ridiculous to knock someone out by smacking them in the hip.

    I also think ANY cut scene/kill shot animation would really ruin it. Thief is all about persistent Stealth gameplay.
    Hitting someone on the head with a blackjack should look exactly like that: you swing something blunt and it hits them in the head. Said individual falls down unconscious.

    There's nothing fancy about it.

    That being said, increased kill zone difficulties and possibly some immune NPCs (Like those with helmets) or honestly ANY way to make it more difficult to Blackjack an NPC without muddying up the gameplay is the best choice, I think.

  21. #21
    Originally Posted by Abletto
    Yes, I am all for improving interactiveness by using creativity. Not only is it already a part of Thief, but it works so well for it.

    This is just one example of many improvements that could be made. (along those same lines)

    I think everyone is on the ball here, we love the Blackjack for obvious reasons but it is a little ridiculous to knock someone out by smacking them in the hip.

    I also think ANY cut scene/kill shot animation would really ruin it. Thief is all about persistent Stealth gameplay.
    Hitting someone on the head with a blackjack should look exactly like that: you swing something blunt and it hits them in the head. Said individual falls down unconscious.

    There's nothing fancy about it.

    That being said, increased kill zone difficulties and possibly some immune NPCs (Like those with helmets) or honestly ANY way to make it more difficult to Blackjack an NPC without muddying up the gameplay is the best choice, I think.
    You said it buddy. A kill/KO animation (cutting to third person of course) would MURDER the immersion. Thief was always so interesting because it never (until TDS ) took you out of first person. You really got into Garrett's skin.
    This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment. Remember, we are eternal. All this pain is an illusion.

  22. #22
    Who says it has to go into third person?

    I think everyone has the wrong idea. If it stays in first person and you have some movement control in any such animation it would be great I reckon. It's reminiscent of goldeneye on the 64. I always like first person animations like that and if done right it could be suprisingly fun.

  23. #23
    Dark Messiah also used first person animations that were not unpleasant. But yes, it was fun at the beginning, alas at the end of the game, that was damn repetitive and easy and did not add something interesting to the immersion in stealth mode.
    However, if you make shorter (very quick and quiet as it would be) and more various KO/kill animations when you success an attack, it may be fun. But I am absolutely not sure of the result.

    ...even on reflection, I doubt that it makes something during all of the game.
    "There are only two things infinite: the universe and human stupidity. Except for the universe I am not sure." - Einstein