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Thread: Thief Deadly Shadows vs Thief reboot

Thief Deadly Shadows vs Thief reboot

  1. #1

    Thief Deadly Shadows vs Thief reboot

    I didn't notice a thread like this which is why I decided to create one.

    For both good and nit-picky reasons the reboot has received a ton of negative response, mostly due to its modernization and simplification.

    The thing is the majority of criticisms I see for the reboot are the exact same ones that I saw for Deadly Shadows, for example: too many loading screens, levels not large/sprawling enough, dumbed down AI, terrible cutscenes etc. Yet TDS has a metascore of 85.

    So I'd like to know what do people generally think when comparing the two games, which one is overall better?

    Honestly, my pick would be the reboot. Now while the plot and storytelling is nowhere near as well told as it was in TDS, I think the actual city felt much larger and more filled out than the TDS version, and most missions I also thought were generally better (except when it comes to the obvious comparison between The Cradle and The Asylum, in that case I'd definitely agree that Cradle wins).

    While the AI is less consistent, I definitely thought it was more unforgiving on the reboot (comparing both games on normal difficulty). I actually used to shout at my computer while playing TDS not believing the guards didn't actually see me, it's like they had no self esteem, everything to them was a rat or a shadow even when I was literally inches away from their faces.

    TDS got rid of the rope arrows and introduced climbing gloves, which to me now appears to be somewhat equivalent of having pre-made points to shoot the rope arrows at in the new game. Climbing gloves most of the time seemed incredibly useless, except for very few and specific areas where there was a pretty linear path you could climb to actually achieve something, and even then the controlling of it seemed a bit off (at least for me). The new game doesn't even pretend to give you complete freedom anymore, which may be disappointing but it also removes a lot of consistency, and no more terrible platforming and constant falling to your death.

    Also, I definitely think the 1st person view feels way more natural in the reboot, I always felt like I knew where I was, while with TDS I would sometimes think I'm considerably far from something (like a guard) only to learn that I am literally in their faces. Or the opposite.

    Overall, while I don't think the reboot did very well when it comes to plot, character development, storytelling or dialogue, I did definitely think it exceeded in level/city design, AI and 1st person view.

  2. #2
    I don't have anything to add other than to say that I agree with you on pretty much everything you said. Good post.

  3. #3
    TDS is masterpiece for this new Thief POS!

    And don't play any Thief on normal difficulty.

  4. #4
    Naah, all Deadly Shadows has on NuThief is better storytelling and The Cradle. And far fewer audio bugs, of course.

  5. #5
    I prefer Thief over TDS, even if I like TDS and despite I have a few problems with the new game.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by ClashWho
    Naah, all Deadly Shadows has on NuThief is better storytelling and The Cradle.
    I don't know... for some reason I did not enjoy the story of TDS that much. It lacked the spice of the first two, both in atmosphere, continuity and story-telling. While I have many issues with the new game's story telling, it has one huge redeeming quality: it's a totally new age with a new character and not the ending of a story-cycle, but the very first chapter of one. Also I dig the new setting where all the old events and places are part of history, it gives a nice connection to the rest of the saga, yet it gives new way for new stories to tell in the Thief universe.

  7. #7
    Most of my issues with TDS were still present in Thief... but at the same time, Thief improved a lot of things as well. The City hub was a lot better, the visuals were much nicer (and I don't mean graphics, I really dislike TDS's art style), and the upgrade system was great. However, Thief has worse writing, story, and voice acting, and there are no Hammers or Pagans, so I'm gonna say they're about equal. I prefer Thief for the gameplay, and Deadly Shadows for the narrative/lore side. But they both pale in comparison to the originals.

  8. #8
    I'll try to give my opinion on both games logically.
    Stealth Focus - Deadly shadows was much more stealth focused than the reboot. You were never scripted to be caught red handed and then dash to safety, which happens too much in the reboot.
    Cut-scenes - the reboot obviously looks much better, but Deadly shadows actually managed to further the story with the cut-scenes in a less ham-fisted way (in my opinion).
    AI - I've found the AI slightly buggy in both, but neither were game breaking. I've crept around guards completely unnoticed when I should've been seen and quickly minced in both games. I do like that guards notice open doors and containers in the reboot though, and that they relight put out fires. Very nice addition.
    Rope arrow vs Climbing gloves- I barely used the climbing gloves even when i probably should have, so the lack of freedom wasn't as noticeable, in the reboot it's practically shoved in your face that rope arrows can't be shot anywhere, they can only be done in certain blue glowing areas.
    Loading Screens - they were less annoying in Deadly Shadows, there was no button mashing to open windows or push bits of wood around, they don't even pretend that its anything other than a loading screen. The reboot looks nicer and more seamless but there are just too many of them. It's too repetitive.
    1st person view - not sure why that is a consideration because I always play all Thief games in 1st person. Was it not possible to play in anything other than 3rd person in the console version of Deadly Shadows, or something?
    Objective Marker - I hate this in the reboot. I feel like the dev's don't trust me to ever find the objective - like they expect the players to be wandering lost around the level like idiots for hours instead of using our heads. Deadly Shadows didn't have this, the levels were linear but you were at least trusted to get from point A to B without a huge arrow and distance counter.
    Difficulty - I really love the custom difficulty option in the reboot, its definitely a step up from 'easy - get 40% of the loot, hard - get 60%, master - get 90%', especially since I always tried to get 100% in whatever difficulty I played.
    Story - Probably a little unfair to add this Deadly Shadows wins hands down, its really fulfilling and intriguing. It teases and gives clues throughout. The reboot just doesn't expand on its story line until its almost over. If it had devoted a few more story missions in there before the end then it might be different, but it didn't. It just feels unfinished and not in a good 'I wonder what comes next' kind of way.
    NPC's - Neither game handles these very well. Deadly shadows mostly used characters that had been introduced in previous games and the new ones like Inspector Drept were picked up and dumped quickly. Rather like ALL NPC's in the reboot. There is no expansion on their personalities, pasts or motivations, they are simply there to say a line, then gone.
    Side Quests - Deadly Shadows had 'shoot rust mites, kill undead and shoot pagan corner stones' which was interesting and gave you the nice bonus of walking unmolested through Pagan and Hammer territory, while the reboot has actual thiefy quests. The side quests in the reboot are easily the best part of it.
    Player Character - Garrett. Deadly Shadows had the easy job because they didn't have to try to sell the audience to Garrett because we already loved him from playing the first games. They also didn't really expand on his character (other than the OTK part, which is more of a plot point than a characteristic.) He was an established character, the pre-mission narratives filled in his opinions on things and SR carried his attitude in the voice over brilliantly. Deadly Shadows carried the established character admirably. The reboot has the hard job of introducing a new guy and... doesn't. We don't really know anything about the new Garrett. It doesn't even carry his personality (what there is of it) because what it shows isn't consistent (don't use the claw, -then- oh this claw is really useful!). The reboot is very lazy.
    Level Design - I actually think Deadly shadows had levels that were more like 'places' than 'levels', even though they were small. The reboot however is almost one long corridor, with the notable exception of the baron's mansion. It's been a while since I played DS though and I haven't played the Bank Heist DLC for the reboot, but I doubt one level is enough to redeem the generalness of all of the reboot's levels. That was the overriding thing for me about the reboot, everything looks the same.
    Overall I prefer Deadly Shadows. It has more replayability and a more engaging and satisfying story.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by LevanaFay
    I'll try to give my opinion on both games logically.
    Stealth Focus - Deadly shadows was much more stealth focused than the reboot. You were never scripted to be caught red handed and then dash to safety, which happens too much in the reboot.
    I can see what you mean, the chase scenes feel a bit too scripted and forced (like hey, hey, you excited yet?), but most of the time I found they still remain stealthy, rather than full of fast paced action, regardless of how loud and fast the music gets (with some exceptions) so I guess it didn't bother me too much.

    Originally Posted by LevanaFay
    Cut-scenes - the reboot obviously looks much better, but Deadly shadows actually managed to further the story with the cut-scenes in a less ham-fisted way (in my opinion).
    I definitely agree, even though some cut-scenes in TDS were phenomenally bad, it still managed to present the story and atmosphere far better than the reboot.

    Originally Posted by LevanaFay
    Loading Screens - they were less annoying in Deadly Shadows, there was no button mashing to open windows or push bits of wood around, they don't even pretend that its anything other than a loading screen. The reboot looks nicer and more seamless but there are just too many of them. It's too repetitive.
    The button mashing might be repetitive, but I found seeing Garrett's terrible looking mug on each loading screen even worse so, and the loading times seem to be faster on the new game ironically. I don't know, I think I appreciate the variation between actual loading screens and opening windows.

    Originally Posted by LevanaFay
    1st person view - not sure why that is a consideration because I always play all Thief games in 1st person. Was it not possible to play in anything other than 3rd person in the console version of Deadly Shadows, or something?
    I tried out TDS in third person just because it was an option, so I did both, and I can't put my hands on what it was specifically, but the 1st person just felt unpolished to me.

    Originally Posted by LevanaFay
    Objective Marker - I hate this in the reboot. I feel like the dev's don't trust me to ever find the objective - like they expect the players to be wandering lost around the level like idiots for hours instead of using our heads. Deadly Shadows didn't have this, the levels were linear but you were at least trusted to get from point A to B without a huge arrow and distance counter.
    There were actually quite a few cases where I seriously appreciated the marker (especially in side missions) but I can see what you mean, on the other hand you are free to turn it off so at least it's not forced upon you.


    Originally Posted by LevanaFay
    NPC's - Neither game handles these very well. Deadly shadows mostly used characters that had been introduced in previous games and the new ones like Inspector Drept were picked up and dumped quickly. Rather like ALL NPC's in the reboot. There is no expansion on their personalities, pasts or motivations, they are simply there to say a line, then gone.
    I appreciated the characted progression in TDS, like the vendors that slowly fell in love with you (with the exception of Heartless Perry) as well as The Guards that also had progressing conversations etc. Sadly it didn't seem that the reboot had even that.

    Originally Posted by LevanaFay
    Player Character - Garrett. Deadly Shadows had the easy job because they didn't have to try to sell the audience to Garrett because we already loved him from playing the first games. They also didn't really expand on his character (other than the OTK part, which is more of a plot point than a characteristic.) He was an established character, the pre-mission narratives filled in his opinions on things and SR carried his attitude in the voice over brilliantly. Deadly Shadows carried the established character admirably. The reboot has the hard job of introducing a new guy and... doesn't. We don't really know anything about the new Garrett. It doesn't even carry his personality (what there is of it) because what it shows isn't consistent (don't use the claw, -then- oh this claw is really useful!). The reboot is very lazy.
    It does make me sad also, essentially all you get to know about new Garrett is that he is a good thief and a loner. Also that he is not interested in being in a Circus. What also bothered me was that he NEVER FREAKS OUT. Mad people escaping the asylum? Erin just shoving some magic in his face? Seeing people do weird stuff in the House of Blossoms? Essentially nothing that isn't directly plot related makes him talk. TDS and the other games didn't exactly make Garrett chatty, but he would definitely comment on things more often providing him with much more character.

    Originally Posted by LevanaFay
    Level Design - I actually think Deadly shadows had levels that were more like 'places' than 'levels', even though they were small. The reboot however is almost one long corridor, with the notable exception of the baron's mansion. It's been a while since I played DS though and I haven't played the Bank Heist DLC for the reboot, but I doubt one level is enough to redeem the generalness of all of the reboot's levels. That was the overriding thing for me about the reboot, everything looks the same.
    Overall I prefer Deadly Shadows. It has more replayability and a more engaging and satisfying story.
    I replayed TDS just a few months back, and honestly while the game wasn't as terrible as I thought, it was definitely quite linear and lacked exploration opportunities. On general I'd say even the worst reboot levels are worse than TDS ones on a general level.

    I did play the Bank Heist mission, it made me quite sad that it is the size of a side-mission rather than a proper one, however it was nicely made. Honestly I thought all levels in the reboot were quite okay, at least until it got to the point where you suddenly must run away!

    But I do wish they would have more variety, essentially every level in TDS was radically different, portraying the characteristics of whatever you're invading at the time (pagans, keepers, museums), sadly enough everything in the reboot looks the same as you said, there's very little individuality regarding who are you robbing, except for the Asylum and House of Blossoms I guess.

  10. #10
    Deadly Shadows is a masterpiece compared to this reboot. Better AI. Non linear levels, better story, better movement system, less loading screens, better sound design etc. The only thing this Thief improves upon IMO is the lock picking and body awareness. Other than that, it carries the same flaws as Thief 3.

  11. #11
    TDS' first person is buggy because the third person animations for movement take precedence over the camera. Best way to demonstrate this is stop, turn the camera to behind you and press forwards. In TDS, you will actually veer to one side because your body needs to turn around before you can walk that way.

  12. #12
    I cannot relate to people saying the hub in the new Thief game is better than it was in Thief 3. It wasn't particularly well done in either game, but at least in Deadly Shadows it wasn't a chore to navigate. Deadly Shadows is a way better game than Thief in every way except the graphics. Sound, writing, stealth mechanics, voice acting, you name it.

    This coming from a guy who pretty much hated Deadly Shadows until this year.

  13. #13
    I love TDS, loved it when it was released and love it now. It wrapped up Garretts story and even though it took quite a few design missteps there was no mistake about it, it was a real Thief game. The sound was beautiful in TDS, truly beautiful. It looked good for the time and it had some fantastic missions in it as well as additional exploration that the fans had wanted for a long time. Most of all it presented a coherent plot that wrapped up the story nicely.

    It was hampered badly by the engine that was used - small loading zones etc.. The AI was very good to passable until the whole Keeper Assassin part which just made it all stupid.

    The first person camera was tied to the third person animations, the good effect was that it did make you feel like you had "weight" in the world rather than that ethereal presence traditional of first person games. Of course it was a rather unintended effect at first I imagine as it was complained about quite loudly. It did make the camera in first person a little more difficult to get used to though and could result in some disorientation.

    I enjoy the new Thief, they did some design decisions that impact on the Thief experience more adversely than Ion Storm with TDS ever did, imo.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    I cannot relate to people saying the hub in the new Thief game is better than it was in Thief 3. It wasn't particularly well done in either game, but at least in Deadly Shadows it wasn't a chore to navigate. Deadly Shadows is a way better game than Thief in every way except the graphics. Sound, writing, stealth mechanics, voice acting, you name it.

    This coming from a guy who pretty much hated Deadly Shadows until this year.
    Pretty much this. Also, at least TDS had somewhat proper darkness.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by ResonanceCascade
    I cannot relate to people saying the hub in the new Thief game is better than it was in Thief 3. It wasn't particularly well done in either game, but at least in Deadly Shadows it wasn't a chore to navigate. Deadly Shadows is a way better game than Thief in every way except the graphics. Sound, writing, stealth mechanics, voice acting, you name it.

    This coming from a guy who pretty much hated Deadly Shadows until this year.
    And I must disagree. There was no fun in exploring tiny TDS city, also I have no slightest problems with navigating the city in new Thief. What sort of problems you have? I know that restricted movement may cause some difficulties but only at the beginning of the game: later you're getting used to it. Other things like wondering how to get to this or that window are part of puzzles which I found attractive. No hand-holding on this one.
    I think that poor city map adds some major difficulties in navigation, ie. there are no markers of transition zones or chapter entries, which is bad, but the rest is fine.
    My english isn't perfect, sorry...

  16. #16
    Originally Posted by argan1985
    Pretty much this. Also, at least TDS had somewhat proper darkness.
    Define "proper" darkness. It is a matter of subject. I like new shadow system of Thief and haven't any problems with it.
    My english isn't perfect, sorry...

  17. #17
    Originally Posted by bjshepp
    Deadly Shadows is a masterpiece compared to this reboot. Better AI. Non linear levels, better story, better movement system, less loading screens, better sound design etc. The only thing this Thief improves upon IMO is the lock picking and body awareness. Other than that, it carries the same flaws as Thief 3.
    I agree with almost everything but better movement system in TDS? No. It is very "clunky" movement system which I didn't ever get used to, unfortunately. Explain this because I simply don't understand what do you have on your mind.
    And there was less loading screens in TDS because game was smaller, too. But I'm not defending new Thief on this matter. Game of 2014 shouldn't have ANY transition zones, especially on PC. It is a shame, really.
    My english isn't perfect, sorry...

  18. #18
    Originally Posted by argan1985
    Pretty much this. Also, at least TDS had somewhat proper darkness.
    Well, I hated the hub in TDS and I like the one in Thief. So I can't relate to what you say, but each to their own.

  19. #19
    Originally Posted by bartekb8
    Other things like wondering how to get to this or that window are part of puzzles which I found attractive. No hand-holding on this one.
    I have to respectfully disagree. Almost all of the windows in the reboot could be reached simply by looking for the glowing blue bit of wood waiting for a rope arrow, climbing a few boxes to reach a beam (that doesn't seem to serve any architectural purpose), or dropping down from the roof tops - onto a bit of wood sticking out from the window. If they had actually implemented more variety in how you reached high windows then I could agree with the no hand holding.
    Only one instance readily springs to mind and that is on the hub map with the Sirens' Rest, in which you need to climb through one window, out the other side and cross some beams to reach the target window. I can't think of any others that seemed like a puzzle.

  20. #20
    Originally Posted by bartekb8
    Define "proper" darkness. It is a matter of subject. I like new shadow system of Thief and haven't any problems with it.
    Darkness that is actually dark and hard to see in. Of course it's a matter of taste, but I can't stand the shadows of nuThief.

  21. #21
    Join Date
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    Ah , what a wanderful day !
    i have the sun here

    Thief 3, can do what dromed did. IonStorm choosed that way perhaps ushering in a game console. the maps were small. But Unreal 2.8 engine chart, supports large spaces.Personally I've made gigantic missions. one of them is as if it were 4 of the original missions! gaterhed together!

    me and my freinds are working on a extra patch
    an important thing to the gameplay are in garrett mechanical movements. that have been removed. with another patch PM. If you are interested

    interesting Thread !
    Have a nice DAy!
    ^_^

  22. #22
    What I see when comparing the two:

    TDS - A game with quite a few problems, but overall very enjoyable. Retains, for the most part, the essence of the thief series (maybe because it was still made by some of the original devs, though under a different name), the ambiance of the series, and feels mostly like an actual thief game from the Thief series. Has some amazing maps as well (i.e., the cradle), which despite the loading screens, are often mentioned when someone mentions memorable maps.

    T4- Feels like a spin-off due to its inconsistency with its title. Has an overly modernized and seemingly deserted ambiance (and a late-20th-century compound bow in a medieval/victorian/steampunk world?), retains little of that feeling and essence from the series, which is mocked and/or bastardized with modern cutscenes (where garret's face is unjustifiably disclosed - it was disclosed in TDS, due to it having 3rd person view as well, and I criticize that), pace-braking animations, unjustifiable super powers (yes I know they can be turned off, but that doesn't justify them - nor does the gameplay justification for them). Like I've been saying, it feels like a hollywood sensation (especially due to those whoosh sounds when jumping and swiping things).

    The thing for me is, TDS's pros surpass the cons, while it feels like a thief game on top of that. T4 is basically the inverse of that. I'm of the opinion that even the 1st two games had their own flaws (they had lots of them), much like any other game has flaws. But some games have something or other that just pulls you in a makes you neglect that they're there. T4 just isn't one of them.
    You can hide, but you can't run.

  23. #23
    Overall I realized TDS still requires skill and precision to play. With all the animations and the pitiful sound, Thief 2014 plays itself.

    Press space to auto win jumping from beam to beam. Give me a break I've played video games before.

  24. #24
    Originally Posted by Advocate
    Press space to auto win jumping from beam to beam. Give me a break I've played video games before.
    Seriously? The game is highly flawed, but this is just stupid.

  25. #25
    Originally Posted by ClashWho
    Naah, all Deadly Shadows has on NuThief is better storytelling and The Cradle. And far fewer audio bugs, of course.
    And doesn't have a god awful contextual control mechanism... although I needn't embellish that by saying "god awful", as ALL contextual control mechanisms are broken, it means you've compromised a step too far and your game doesn't work how it should.
    Thief 5 creation instructions: Play thief 2, play again, pay UDK4 or idTech 6 licence, employ engine programmers who are able to code jumping physics, listen to fans not ubisoft

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