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Blade_hunter
6th Jul 2009, 13:09
IS DEUS EX 3 AN RPG/FPS/TPS?
Deus Ex 3 is FIRST person, but switches to third person for some contextual elements, after which it quickly returns to first person. DX3 still has a component of action, a component of RPG, and a component of open-ended gameplay. You can play it the way you want - just as in the original game. If you want to be a stealth agent, or if you prefer to be a John Rambo, the choice is yours. You can play the entire game using combat... or you can play using stealth. Or, you can play the entire game going back and forth between both. The key is CHOICE. As the player, you are able to play the game the way you want to play it.

It’s an RPG and a shooter, with different ways to solve an objective, different people to talk to and lots of extra little things to do beyond the main path - just like Deus Ex 1. There is no one way to play; there are multiple ways depending on your style. DX3 will not lack RPG elements because of a couple other game design choices - it remains an action/RPG like the first game even with the changed aspects. It's still based around making decisions which have consequences, selecting from a multi-path, multi-solution approach in a non-linear space.

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After reading a test about James bond quantum of solace I'm getting afraid of this much more than before, since that thing isn't related with the conversations, because they are in first person.
What is the "contextual" elements here ?

K^2
6th Jul 2009, 13:24
I believe, we've been pretty much told that the specific contexts are use of cover system and use of specific augmentations. So if you want to avoid going into third person, you pretty much have to abandon cover system, which isn't a big deal if the stealth system is fair, and avoid a certain set of augmentations. Don't know how many you'd have to blacklist, though.

I do think that the whole idea of forced 3rd person is bad, regardless of other limitations, but at least it seems like it could be circumvented.

Blade_hunter
6th Jul 2009, 14:12
Third person autoswitch during the action crap ...

I was more afraid if this affects the melee/unramed combat as well as the augmentations
But I think forced 3rd person view is bad. I preferred that as a choice.

Because if some persons prefers 3rd person view they can enjoy DX 3 as the ones who wants to play a first person game, but mixing the views is the worst thing to do, but this is in the trend crap ....

René
6th Jul 2009, 14:44
So if you want to avoid going into third person, you pretty much have to abandon cover system, which isn't a big deal if the stealth system is fair, and avoid a certain set of augmentations.

Spot on.

InGroove2
6th Jul 2009, 16:08
Spot on.

so basically, you can play the game, hiding and stealthing, hacking, talking, shooting, the whole shot without ever going into 3rd person and eperiencing the whole game in terms of story and information and items etc...

all one would miss is the use of those cover-system-specific augs?

Jerion
6th Jul 2009, 16:59
so basically, you can play the game, hiding and stealthing, hacking, talking, shooting, the whole shot without ever going into 3rd person and eperiencing the whole game in terms of story and information and items etc...

all one would miss is the use of those cover-system-specific augs?

In a word, Precisely.

gamer0004
6th Jul 2009, 17:02
so basically, you can play the game, hiding and stealthing, hacking, talking, shooting, the whole shot without ever going into 3rd person and eperiencing the whole game in terms of story and information and items etc...

all one would miss is the use of those cover-system-specific augs?

No, because (some of) the third person augs are not related to the cover system, AFAIK.

Absentia
6th Jul 2009, 17:21
No, because (some of) the third person augs are not related to the cover system, AFAIK.

Exactly. This is were it starts getting stupid. How would I know which augmentations switch to third person anyway? I doubt it's going to mention it as part of the description, so for a player who wants to always stick with first person (a playstyle that is apparently possible) then every single augmentation choice is a gamble over whether it will engage third person or not.

InGroove2
6th Jul 2009, 17:34
No, because (some of) the third person augs are not related to the cover system, AFAIK.

it seems not, accoring to Mr. K.

seems like rene and others could have figured a more precise way of describing this whole thing, cause it has sparked to much controversey. "cover system" "stealth system" etc are all very subjective.

i'm gonna continue thinking that, basically, if you use a certain few off the augs, you'll do some 3rd-personing... i'm guessing in the vein of that alternative combat system in FO3, which i've never played and don't care to.... and if i did i wouldn't use that system... it's called VATS or something, right?

seems to me, while it doens't bother me to avoid a few augs... that all these games are trying to cater to EVERYONE possible... FO3 seemed to me, to be ambivalent (i.e. you COULD do this, or not, you COULD do that... or not... eitherway, whatever you want).... DX is not.

anyway, i'm glad this 3rd person business is relegated to a certain avoidable piece of the game.

gamer0004
6th Jul 2009, 17:37
it seems not, accoring to Mr. K.

i'm gonna continue thinking that, basically, if you use a certain few off the augs, you'll do some 3rd-personing... i'm guessing in the vein of that alternative combat system in FO3, which i've never played and don't care to.... and if i did i wouldn't use that system... it's called VATS or something, right?


"It seems not" that using certain augs will be shown in third person, and yet "if you use a certain few off the augs, you'll do some 3rd-personing"? I don't see much of a difference here...

InGroove2
6th Jul 2009, 17:49
"It seems not" that using certain augs will be shown in third person, and yet "if you use a certain few off the augs, you'll do some 3rd-personing"? I don't see much of a difference here...


'it seems not' was separate and relating specifically to what you said. in that it does NOT seem to me that there are non-cover related augs that go into 3rd person in terms of gameplay... though i get the feeling we might turn on a certain aug and get a camera whip around to show us the aug in 3rd person, which is hokey... which might be axactly what you're saying, but i'm not considering it true 3rd person if you don't actually play that way... you know.. if it just SHOWS you the aug in 3rd person... though, again, it's hokey and seems like it might rip you out of the moment. though 3rd person convos in DX didn't detract from the immersion for me.. so whoknows how i'll feel about it.. if in fact THAT is the case.

obviously this is all speaking from how i understand it, not as fact.

gamer0004
6th Jul 2009, 17:55
'it seems not' was separate and relating specifically to what you said. in that it does NOT seem to me that there are non-cover related augs that go into 3rd person in terms of gameplay... though i get the feeling we might turn on a certain aug and get a camera whip around to show us the aug in 3rd person, which is hokey... which might be axactly what you're saying, but i'm not considering it true 3rd person if you don't actually play that way... you know.. if it just SHOWS you the aug in 3rd person... though, again, it's hokey and seems like it might rip you out of the moment. though 3rd person convos in DX didn't detract from the immersion for me.. so whoknows how i'll feel about it.. if in fact THAT is the case.

obviously this is all speaking from how i understand it, not as fact.

I believe the devs did somewhere say that some augs would be shown in third person because they look awesome/cool/etc.

PenguinsFriend
6th Jul 2009, 18:05
Remeber the Spy Drone aug? You activated and it launched a small spy bot and just for a few seconds, you had an out of body experience before you jumped into the forward facing camera of the drone.

Maybe it will be something like that?

InGroove2
6th Jul 2009, 18:19
I believe the devs did somewhere say that some augs would be shown in third person because they look awesome/cool/etc.

right, that's true, i remember now. PenguinsFriend noted the spy drone thing...
there are some variables/options there.

KSingh77
6th Jul 2009, 20:54
I believe the devs did somewhere say that some augs would be shown in third person because they look awesome/cool/etc.


Like the tentacle aug?

InGroove2
6th Jul 2009, 21:08
Like the tentacle aug?

that rumor was dispelled long ago.

K^2
6th Jul 2009, 21:09
Exactly. This is were it starts getting stupid. How would I know which augmentations switch to third person anyway? I doubt it's going to mention it as part of the description, so for a player who wants to always stick with first person (a playstyle that is apparently possible) then every single augmentation choice is a gamble over whether it will engage third person or not.
We can start up a thread as soon as the game comes out where the augs are listed along with which force 3rd person. If you care about this sort of thing, just check the thread before playing through.

Blade_hunter
6th Jul 2009, 21:32
The spydrone have nothing related to third person you keep your view and have a windowed view from the drone's camera this is nothing related to third person


We can start up a thread as soon as the game comes out where the augs are listed along with which force 3rd person. If you care about this sort of thing, just check the thread before playing through.

There is an other solution don't buy the game if you can't enjoy it as it is ... :(

K^2
6th Jul 2009, 23:38
There is always that option, yes. But it is one that I'm planning to keep in reserve. No need to commit to something that drastic until we see a demo or at least some gamepay footage. I pretty much gave up on waiting for a game that is worthy of DX ancestry, but if the game is fun to play, I won't hold the misnomer against it.

Blade_hunter
6th Jul 2009, 23:53
Idem but 3rd person autoswitch is for me and that's my point the worst thing I see in actual FPS for me ... (there is a lot of persons who like that)
now saying DX 3 will be a poor game just for that; no ...
I don't know what part of the game that thing affects the game, but I'm worried about that and more when I see what quantum of solace have as a gameplay

K^2
7th Jul 2009, 00:27
Wait. Worst part about first person game is the third person view? 0.o I'm not sure how to interpret that.

I do think that 3rd person switching would break flow. And it is completely unnecessary. Look how marvelously the Darkness dealt with the concept.

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2009, 00:46
Not the third person view, but the fact it switches between the views, the autoswitch during the action
When you do a special action like using cover, using a rope, an augmentation, a melee weapon or even when you execute an attack
some games mixes the FPS / TPS like that breaking the view points just because you do something
Normally I want to play a first person game without to change the view when I infiltrate, when I do my gunfights, when I use my powers or something else.
Just look to some FPS with a cover system, they switch each time when you use the cover and this breaks the immersion by changing view all the time ...

If you press a button just for changing the views that will be ok
but if it's when you use the cover an aug or something special, no (for me ...)

If they want to make a third person game they can do it, as a first person game but the mix of the two (I mean when you play your view change each time you do something) I think this one would be ugly :(

thomasaquinas
7th Jul 2009, 06:33
There is always that option, yes. But it is one that I'm planning to keep in reserve. No need to commit to something that drastic until we see a demo or at least some gamepay footage. I pretty much gave up on waiting for a game that is worthy of DX ancestry, but if the game is fun to play, I won't hold the misnomer against it.Don't you think the mainstreaming of a franchise (representative of the artistic deterioration of an industry) is something to be voted against, even if the game turns out to be tolerable? I'm not suggesting you can't play the game, of course. I just can't justify financially supporting a dumbing-down, on ideological terms. I get the impression a lot of people here (not necessarily you) will even decry the game after it's release and then still vote in its favour by paying for it.

LatwPIAT
7th Jul 2009, 08:03
Don't you think the mainstreaming of a franchise (representative of the artistic deterioration of an industry) is something to be voted against, even if the game turns out to be tolerable? I'm not suggesting you can't play the game, of course. I just can't justify financially supporting a dumbing-down, on ideological terms. I get the impression a lot of people here (not necessarily you) will even decry the game after it's release and then still vote in its favour by paying for it.

Well, I'm fundamentally against doing what you're insinuating, so I really hope they release a demo.

There's also the fact that even if the game is not a good prequel to DX, it's slightly-more-expansive-than-COD4 gameplay will inspire, if the game sells a lot, other companies to make similar games that are new IP, and will perhaps inspire some companies to make more advanced, Deus Ex like games. Besides, unless DX3 completely blows me away, I will be laying down flowers pretty soon, and then they can make it an isometric dating sim and I wouldn't care because to me, it's dead.

Ashpolt
7th Jul 2009, 08:39
I always read it that it's going to work like Rainbow Six Vegas: first person while you're walking, flick to third person when you dig in against cover (hence them saying it only happens if you press a button - they mean the dig in button.) And then, as an added "bonus," we'll get it to show off Adam's "cool moves."

Unlike other people on here, I don't think saying "well, just don't do x, y and z if you don't want the immersion to be broken" is an acceptable solution.

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2009, 09:23
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=84188

I did that post I also suggested body awareness for a few reasons ....

gamer0004
7th Jul 2009, 10:34
I always read it that it's going to work like Rainbow Six Vegas: first person while you're walking, flick to third person when you dig in against cover (hence them saying it only happens if you press a button - they mean the dig in button.) And then, as an added "bonus," we'll get it to show off Adam's "cool moves."

Unlike other people on here, I don't think saying "well, just don't do x, y and z if you don't want the immersion to be broken" is an acceptable solution.

Exactly. However, third person in cover is like wallhack (i.e. CHEATING FOR XBOX TARDS).

Sorry. Didn't mean to be so rude.

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2009, 15:02
I wanted that thing being in first person as well ans the other actions we do

There is FPS when lockpicking/hacking is in 3rd person
There is FPS where vehicle driving is in 3rd person
There is FPS when you use cover movements your are in 3rd person
There is FPS when you use your powers you do that in 3rd person
There is FPS when you use melee / unarmed combat; you are in 3rd person.

Some FPS got that and I think this isn't a part of FPS, a FPS needs FIRST PERSON VIEW FIRST
If we want third person, we need a playable third person view, for the ones who like 3rd person games not that crap of autoswitch all the way ...

I want to preserve the View integrity

K^2
7th Jul 2009, 19:14
I hold HL/HL2, Darkness, and Mirror's Edge as good examples of how first person needs to be done. All of these games have stuck to first person in situations where most other games assumed a need for third person for situation to make sense. And none of these games have lost any aesthetic aspect to achieve that, either.

I see no need for third person for dialog, combat, power moves, or acrobatics. All of these things have been done in first person, and the games that did that were better for it.

KSingh77
7th Jul 2009, 19:30
I hope this game doesn't end playing like Rainbow Six Vegas or Quantum of Solace.

Abram730
7th Jul 2009, 19:54
<---crosses fingers
options>game play>3rd person = uncheck

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2009, 20:13
http://supersquadra.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/crossed-fingers.jpg

LatwPIAT
7th Jul 2009, 22:37
I hold HL/HL2, Darkness, and Mirror's Edge as good examples of how first person needs to be done. All of these games have stuck to first person in situations where most other games assumed a need for third person for situation to make sense. And none of these games have lost any aesthetic aspect to achieve that, either.

I see no need for third person for dialog, combat, power moves, or acrobatics. All of these things have been done in first person, and the games that did that were better for it.

I have yet not seen a game with a complex hand-to-hand system that wasn't Oni that didn't use third-person view. Zeno Clash looked promising, but it seemed to have a very limited set of strikes when compared to Oni.

I don't think it's impossible, but I'd like some complex hand-to-hand from a first person perspective. From experience I know that real people don't spin or flip much when fighting, so there shouldn't be an issue with the First Person Perspective camera. I'd really like to see Oni 2 a game that uses complex H2H combat yet remains in FPP.

Cookie to whoever guesses what one of my favourite games is.

Red
7th Jul 2009, 23:23
Chronicles of Riddic.k

Blade_hunter
8th Jul 2009, 00:38
"Complex" hand to hand combat can be well made in first person view, also it can be very immersive
I think body awareness is the best for that because the moves of your enemies are detailed as your owns

And sword duels can be more interesting than before, the ones who doesn't want sword duels they can sneak and attack without being detected ...

OuttaZyme
8th Jul 2009, 07:36
I hope this game doesn't end playing like Rainbow Six Vegas or Quantum of Solace.

More likely it'll resemble RSV2, which used a 3rd-person cover POV, and also "had a component of action, a component of RPG, and a component of open-ended gameplay."

It also used a checkpoint-only save system, which is why I stopped playing after about forty-five minutes.

<cue ominous music now>

Anyone want to take bets on the similarities between DX3 and RSV2 crossing over into more than just the aforementioned cover POV and RPG "components"? I can forgive a lot of flaws, but checkpoint-only saves isn't one of them.

Ashpolt
8th Jul 2009, 08:54
I don't think it'll have checkpoint only saves. Progression in RS:V is very linear, so checkpoint saves work - though you say they're apparently too far apart (I've only played it for about an hour, so I couldn't say) but Deus Ex has you going back and forth constantly, so they couldn't really do checkpoints unless they're time based, say every 5 minutes (which would be fine by me, I used to forget to quicksave quite a lot) or load zone based, which again is fine. I really doubt that'll be the only form anyway.

And LatwPIAT: As Red said, Chronicles of Riphallus does FP hand to hand quite well (though bizarrely flips into TP when you're climbing a ladder...go figure.) Mirror's Edge shows that first person combat is feasible, but they've made a mess of it, mainly by having it in there at all (I just wanted a first person free running game, dammit!)

K^2
8th Jul 2009, 09:37
DX3 could do with checkpoint autosaves, but I really would like to see free save and load capability.

Blade_hunter
8th Jul 2009, 11:44
Depends Snowblind uses checkpoints to make your saves but it's a room specifically made for that
I hope the save sytem will be like the first deus ex with auto saves when you change level

lumpi
8th Jul 2009, 12:57
So if you want to avoid going into third person, you pretty much have to abandon cover system, which isn't a big deal if the stealth system is fair, and avoid a certain set of augmentations.

Yea, just don't think of it. Soon, you will hardly mole it. I mole, hardly notice it. Oh, sorry. I didn't mole to ARGHH!!!

http://www.leftspot.com/blog/files/images/AustinPowers_Mole.jpg

imported_van_HellSing
8th Jul 2009, 13:51
Just don't mention the (invisible) war!

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9590/dontmention2.jpg

KSingh77
8th Jul 2009, 17:14
As for the hand to hand combat in FP there was an old game for the Xbox call Breakdown.

Great game,controls take time getting use to,too bad it didn't get enough attention for a worthy success but still it's a great game.

Ninjerk
9th Jul 2009, 03:55
I have yet not seen a game with a complex hand-to-hand system that wasn't Oni that didn't use third-person view. Zeno Clash looked promising, but it seemed to have a very limited set of strikes when compared to Oni.

I don't think it's impossible, but I'd like some complex hand-to-hand from a first person perspective. From experience I know that real people don't spin or flip much when fighting, so there shouldn't be an issue with the First Person Perspective camera. I'd really like to see Oni 2 a game that uses complex H2H combat yet remains in FPP.

Cookie to whoever guesses what one of my favourite games is.

I liked Jade Empire's combo system. I can hardly remember anything about it, but I remember liking it.

gamer0004
9th Jul 2009, 08:32
I liked Jade Empire's combo system. I can hardly remember anything about it, but I remember liking it.

Yeah, but it can hardly be used in Deus Ex 3... It's a third person action system, not an FP RPG (which is what DX3 is supposed to be anyway).

El_Bel
9th Jul 2009, 08:35
What contextual elements means?

It means we are Ef'd!!!! :rasp:

ps: in the A.

ps2:by game developers who dump down games?aaaaaa whatever..

Blade_hunter
9th Jul 2009, 19:11
I think the Trend of gaming is highly responsible of what happen on Deus Ex

Regenerating health and BE are on the trend
3rd person cover too
low amount of RPG elements cf mass effect and bioshock

Games like STALKER, DEUS EX 1, BLOODLINES, SYSTEM SHOCK 2 and such aren't the Trend

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8177/trendofgamingnaughtydem.jpg (http://img510.imageshack.us/i/trendofgamingnaughtydem.jpg/)

K^2
9th Jul 2009, 23:18
How did gaming become that market where you can sell anything, and by the time you are ready to sell something new, the audience is absolutely unaware of your previous disaster, and you can sell just about anything again.

It's like the entire gaming industry is targeting the 3-9 age group that's growing out of things faster than you can sell them. Shouldn't the people in the 18+ group make up a big enough portion of gaming demographic by now to, I don't know, actually affect the market?

Irate_Iguana
10th Jul 2009, 06:38
Regenerating health and BE are on the trend

The funny thing is that we've been joking about regenerating BE since we learned about the regen health. Yet, they haven't gone out of their way to insure us that there won't be regenerating BE. That is actually starting to have me worried.

K^2
10th Jul 2009, 08:31
Rene, could you blink once if they have regenerating BE and twice if they don't? We won't tell anyone. People are worried here.

Ashpolt
10th Jul 2009, 08:37
^^ René's already pretty much confirmed it. Regenerating BE I wouldn't have a problem with personally, as long as health didn't regenerate. Heck, you could even pair it with the health regen aug like in DX and IW, so those players who wanted it could have effectively infinite health, but would still have to activate it themselves and have some restrictions to using it (health or invisibility?) It'd get rid of the whole "no scouring for medkits" thing in a much better and more engaging fashion than the current system.

gamer0004
10th Jul 2009, 11:06
^^ René's already pretty much confirmed it. Regenerating BE I wouldn't have a problem with personally, as long as health didn't regenerate. Heck, you could even pair it with the health regen aug like in DX and IW, so those players who wanted it could have effectively infinite health, but would still have to activate it themselves and have some restrictions to using it (health or invisibility?) It'd get rid of the whole "no scouring for medkits" thing in a much better and more engaging fashion than the current system.

It would still suck TBH. I want to be able to enable invisibility and health regeneration at the same time if I have to, at the cost of energy cells.

Ashpolt
10th Jul 2009, 13:14
Oh yeah, the way I see it you'd still be able to enable both at the same time, there'd be no hard lock "1 at a time" rule, but your BE would drain quite quickly, exactly the same as it would with energy cells. Non regen health / regen BE isn't as good as non-regen health / non-regen BE, but it's a damn sight better than regen health / regen BE or even regen health / non regen BE, IMO.

Nathan2000
10th Jul 2009, 13:20
It would still suck TBH. I want to be able to enable invisibility and health regeneration at the same time if I have to, at the cost of energy cells.

Regenerating energy doesn't exclude biocells. It could be that bioelectric storage slowly recharges and batteries instantly fill it. *looks at regenerating health in Sacred*

Irate_Iguana
10th Jul 2009, 13:36
Regenerating energy doesn't exclude biocells.

Seeing as the reason stated for not including medkits is that they don't want people searching for them I'd bet that they don't want people searching for BE-cells. The chances that those are in the game are slim at best. If they are in the game then the whole reason for health regen becomes even more ridiculous and contrived.

Blade_hunter
10th Jul 2009, 14:01
The reason to get regen and resources to manage is the fact
Regenerating is too slow or partial, not a full part of the gameplay but leave you a little chance to pursue the game with a low amount of health.

They said the regenerating health works in tandem with the cover system, that means we have a similar combat gameplay as games like R6 vegas, Call of duty, quantum of solace and such

Also they doesn't want we hunt for medkits, so it means the medkits are excluded from the game

Regenerating resources can work with physical supplies or recharging terminals, but if the regenerating system is sufficient to provide the resources you need, you haven't limited supplies around the game.

This is actually the case of DX 3 they wanted to maintain the player in the action. and avoid the hunt for health kits.

This have some benefits for the developing team, I mean in therms of level design, because level designers doesn't need to balance health supplies in the levels.
The benefit for the player because they doesn't have to care about healing supplies.

But DX Fans wants to manage health because it provided tension in the game