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Flashart
19th Jun 2009, 19:05
Regardless of plot, should the T4 story end abruptly or provide a hint of stories to come (T5, T6 etc)?
Is it important for fans and FM creators to have a future framework to guide them, or would you like T5 etc to each start with "a blank sheet of paper"?
An abrupt end seems to provide a wide scope for invention, but a continuation seems to be more immersive, and helps build the legacy.
Personally, I'd like a continuation, but would concede that the TDS end did no-one any favours in this regard. So what can T4 do to stop a similar situation happening again?

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 19:07
Another trilogy would be ideal, but I won't hold EM to that monumental task.

Hamadriyad
19th Jun 2009, 19:13
Should be end. Otherwise, may turn to Tomb Raider.

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 19:15
It probably will be anyway, if the non-hardcore get their way. :P

Thieffanman
20th Jun 2009, 04:32
Regardless of plot, should the T4 story end abruptly or provide a hint of stories to come (T5, T6 etc)?

The story should continue on with hints of the future, and with common elements in place: the Pagans, the Hammerites, and the Keepers, for starters. Great games like "Half-Life 2" and its episodes end with a cliffhanger that keep you wanting more.


Personally, I'd like a continuation, but would concede that the TDS end did no-one any favours in this regard. So what can T4 do to stop a similar situation happening again?

Hell, the story could *easily* continue from TDS: the Keepers are in disarray, the Hammerites and the Pagans are still fighting with no clear resolution, and Garrett has a new scar on his hand that may, or may not, affect him on a greater level. There are many plot points from TDS that EM can develop and inject new life into for T4. It's just a matter of how they do it.


It probably will be anyway, if the non-hardcore get their way. :P

I've always found 'hardcore' to be a subjective term. One player has played the game since TDP came out; they're hardcore. But wait! Another player has played only TMA, but they've been doing it *weekly* since the game came out. But wait, there! Another player has played all three games and has a custom-made Garrett figurine-- they're more 'hardcore' compared to the first two. But hold on a minute-- player #4 has played all three games night-and-day since TDP came out, and named their first *kid* Garrett . . .

Nah. The term 'hardcore' applied to computer gaming makes me laugh.

--Thieffanman

jtr7
20th Jun 2009, 04:54
Oh good! I was being sardonic, there, about having that term thrown at me by very impassioned and hardcore hardcore-fan haters. Too many assumptions and trigger-happiness. :lmao:


Yeah, the story should be open-ended to show that life existed before and life will go on after, but the main plot should be tied up, with a thread running through the whole thing that would continue on if there's another sequel in the same timeline.

Flashart
20th Jun 2009, 08:41
The reason I started the thread was that a lot of people have got into a frightful tizzy because "you know who" appears at the end of TDS. I thought if each story/game came to a definite end it might
allay the prophets of doom, and offer more freedom for expansion.
I'd like another trilogy, but do wonder that as the stakes get ratcheted up it will end up with Garrett saving the world, not a great prospect.
A slightly separate issue but I wondered to the value of an "Add-on" expansion disc that would only contain separate missions (no connective story). I thought of "The Heist Series" a selection of Banks, Mansions, Museums, etc with really complicated security features. I realize that this is heading into FM territory, but mused upon whether it might provide an outlet for ideas that wouldn't fit into the main story.

Platinumoxicity
20th Jun 2009, 09:01
The story should end mysteriously, without any hints of a next game. The end should look like the series is over, so that "continuity-junkies" won't shoot themselves if a sequel isn't made, but they also wouldn't whine if a sequel is made. This is exactly what they did with the ending of DS. All loose ends tied up, no unfinished business, and the story that started from The Dark Project finally got an end. Now there are endless possibilities on how to continue, or in other words, where to start.

jtr7
20th Jun 2009, 09:11
Hahaha! Can't stop the whiners! They've been whining since the end of TMA! Hahaha!

"Tell me..." (Black screen)

What?!? It ends just like that?!

The girl, the girl, the girl, the girl, you think that's a girl?, the girl, the girl, the girl, the girl, the boy, the girl, it's a boy, the girl, the girl, the girl.... BLECH!

And over a hundred "Will there be a Thief 4?" threads later, we finally are going to see one.

huzi73
20th Jun 2009, 10:04
Hahaha! Can't stop the whiners! They've been whining since the end of TMA! Hahaha!

"Tell me..." (Black screen)

What?!? It ends just like that?!

The girl, the girl, the girl, the girl, you think that's a girl?, the girl, the girl, the girl, the girl, the boy, the girl, it's a boy, the girl, the girl, the girl.... BLECH!

And over a hundred "Will there be a Thief 4?" threads later, we finally are going to see one.

Word

Pieter888
20th Jun 2009, 11:32
Hahaha! Can't stop the whiners! They've been whining since the end of TMA! Hahaha!

"Tell me..." (Black screen)

What?!? It ends just like that?!

The girl, the girl, the girl, the girl, you think that's a girl?, the girl, the girl, the girl, the girl, the boy, the girl, it's a boy, the girl, the girl, the girl.... BLECH!

And over a hundred "Will there be a Thief 4?" threads later, we finally are going to see one.

That quite nails it:thumb:

Flashart
20th Jun 2009, 12:16
I'm not being pixieish, but ending "mysteriously", as if the series is at an end? Surely this is a contradiction in terms? Fueling the very debate it is meant to avoid. (Although speculation helps keep the forums alive)
I wouldn't dismiss continuity completely, it helps with the context of any given narrative, but I accept the fact that for some may read more into what is happening than what is actually there.
Personally, I would like to see a few characters introduced in T4 that, may not play any part of the game's story but just help to "populate" the surroundings. So there could be the odd Fence, Priest, Civic Dignitary, etc. That with perhaps a mention of the City's status within the wider region.

Platinumoxicity
20th Jun 2009, 12:51
I'm not being pixieish, but ending "mysteriously", as if the series is at an end? Surely this is a contradiction in terms? Fueling the very debate it is meant to avoid. (Although speculation helps keep the forums alive)
I wouldn't dismiss continuity completely, it helps with the context of any given narrative, but I accept the fact that for some may read more into what is happening than what is actually there.

What I meant by ending mysteriously (Falsely worded points, sorry :) ) is that there should be no direct implications to the events in the next sequel. Not the kind that TDP had in the end where the Keeper said: "...Beware the dawn of the Metal Age." -There should be none of that, because if one of those hints could be interpreted as something that strays too much away from the basic essence of the series, it would be a VERY BAD thing if the devs of the sequel would misunderstand those implications that way. Although the end of TDS did pretty well and left us nothing to go with, this could be the case with T4 but all we can do is hope that the worst case scenario doesn't come true. I'm not saying which is worst case scenario, you decide yourself.

If there are no hints to a sequel, it doesn't matter if a sequel doesn't happen to come out afterall. If there are strong hints about following events, the devs of the sequel are "trapped" to build the sequel around them. Especially if those "hints" are stupid and they suck. That means that without substantial retcon, the sequel will be exactly like those hints implied. It will suck.

clock12345
20th Jun 2009, 13:52
T4 "Garret had a dream that he walk's after a dark figure it leads him to a distruction of the city after garret woke up a glyph door has been opened with the power of the dead's the evil came back but this time garret became foe or enemy some faction's to stop the one and only ..... and his group after the game ends garret answers to his fellow .... "i live on Evanescence all my life my life is the Evanescence and my life will stay as it is because every beggining has a new ending every new ending has a new beggining so you should be ready in any moment. hope you liked my storyline on and when i said "his fellow ...." the evil ...." i meanted that there needs to be someone new of someone from the past games. T5 "save the destiny... save the destiny... life isnt good as it is as always as human becomes live like a trash die like a trash what god gave us? god gave us nothing god only gave us what we had to see and we ruined it but sometimes... he gives you a second chance spoof. and the game begins <--- this was what i want garret to say at the start of the game of T5 it shows you the ending you die while someone shoots an arrow in ur heart after that you wake up in your bed you realize this is a second chance to fix everything everything seems normal but its not at that night the city gets burned by army of (someone) your house gets burned and the door and the windows are stuck and on fire there is one window behind the building you jump of from there because its your only chance at that moment the building fells down and you lose consciousness after that your at the prison of (someone's) army its the biggest prison ever created you'll have to escape behind all of that evil your friend is the one that is behind all of this at the finall level his on big mechanical machine you run,hide your only way to deafeat him is to destroy the electronical light's first that is what makes him work after he fells garret runs away outside before there will be an explosion but before that he realized that someone is going to shoot him in his heart by his dream his friend takes a bow and shoots him but garret realized that before garret disapeared before the arrow hit him after the big explosion all of the glyph door's are being destroyed there was a spell that maked them all to work garret disapears in the shadows and never being seen in anyones eye the end. i think thief series should be till 5.

esme
20th Jun 2009, 13:54
it doesn't really matter, I mean I'm still waiting for the sequel to buckaroo banzai to come out, the end credits said there would be one and gawd knows how many years later nada, zip, zilch

if there's thief 5 as a sequel one day it will be plotted in somehow and if there are continuity errors it'll give us all a chance to indulge in chats,debates and flame wars over whether we think it was deliberate, accidental, good, bad, ruined/improved the storyline, was/wasn't canon, set in an alternate thief universe, yadda yadda blah

so it doesn't really matter as long as it is a good game

so my vote goes with the soprano's ending, halfway through a word, mid sentence cut to black screen and end credits let everyone wonder what the rest of the sentence was

Hamadriyad
20th Jun 2009, 13:59
I hope they won't decide to make T5. I don't want to see endless Thief series.

esme
20th Jun 2009, 14:04
I hope they won't decide to make T5. I don't want to see endless Thief series.

you don't play fan missions then ? ;)

Hamadriyad
20th Jun 2009, 14:12
Come on, this is different. Fan missions are separate from original story. And fan missions serve this purpose: endless Thief. Original series should not be endless.

esme
20th Jun 2009, 14:38
but we'd never get new engines for the fan missions :lol:

or more seriously new taffers hooked into the series if it just stopped

I love Thief I do not want it to die

I don't agree with the "all good things must come to an end" tenet

Hamadriyad
20th Jun 2009, 15:46
But "all good things must come to an end" agree or not.

And what about dark mod? That has been made with an old engine?

Besides, I love Thief too and If they make endless sequels( or prequels, doesn't matter) then believe me Thief will die. They will kill it without mercy. Say goodbye to your favourite game series.
If they know to stop, then Thief will live forever.
System Shock died?

Flashart
20th Jun 2009, 15:59
Does a continuing story give "hope" to fans that there would be a sequel, and or a chance to put right any wrong or rights with the game? Or is not knowing if there would ever be another game a better prospect?

Thieffanman
20th Jun 2009, 18:35
Oh good! I was being sardonic, there, about having that term thrown at me by very impassioned and hardcore hardcore-fan haters. Too many assumptions and trigger-happiness. :lmao:

Hey-- If you ever want to sabotage a thread, when someone brings up the term 'hardcore', or say that "they're hardcore" about game XYZ, do this:

1) Ask the board to define 'hardcore' in terms of the game, and
2) What makes them more hardcore than the other people on the board who claim they're hardcore.:)

I guarantee that the thread will spiral out of control like a Mexican bottle rocket with each person trying to define the vague terms of what 'hardcore' is, say how 'they're hardcore' or more hardcore than everyone else, and not to mention the people who will jump in just for the potential humor-- myself included :).

--Thieffanman

P.S. . . .because if you haven't had the game's title tattooed somewhere on your anatomy, you're just not hardcore :D .

jtr7
20th Jun 2009, 19:09
Hahahaha! :thumb:





Cross-linking:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=93517

esme
22nd Jun 2009, 13:20
But "all good things must come to an end" agree or not.why ?
And what about dark mod? That has been made with an old engine?yes it has but it's new to thief which is the somewhat frivolous point I was making, the graphics are good and it supports everything thief needs so no need for one of the newer engines just ask the dark mod guys if we can have the Dark Mod SDK for Thief 4 it's multiplatform and will play on pretty much any OS or machine
Besides, I love Thief too and If they make endless sequels( or prequels, doesn't matter) then believe me Thief will die. They will kill it without mercy. Say goodbye to your favourite game series.
If they know to stop, then Thief will live forever.
System Shock died?on the other hand they could completely reinvent the franchise while staying true to the core values as in the movies with batman, superman and even star trek (though Simon Pegg as Scotty and Spock shoving his tongue down Uhura's throat every chance he gets is taking a bit of getting used to)

Hamadriyad
22nd Jun 2009, 16:59
Why? Because it is. Flowers wilt, people die, youth passes...
I know new lifes begin but not same lifes, they are different.
Batman and Superman? You mean Nolan's Batman and Singer's Superman?
Batman movies are really good but they are not Batman. They are something else. Nolan's Gotham is not Gotham. Not fantastic, creepy(filthy but not creepy), cold. Nolan's Batman is too realistic If you ask me.
Burton's Batman movies are real Batman.
And for Superman: this movie is a disaster, nothing else.
Maybe Prince of Persia trilogy is a good example as reinvent. They made a really good job.(except Warrior Within. I hate WW.) But I have bad feelings about Prince 4.(though I haven't played yet) I think they should stop too.
And Silent Hill 4: what the hell was that? Completely junk.
Did you play Clive Barker's Undying? There is only one Undying game. Not 2, 3, 4... And what a perfect, undying game indeed.

TheEye
4th Jul 2009, 10:44
T4 should probably have a continuation - the saga is just awesome. one thing eidos can do is to make the T4 ending a bit less nailed-down like TDS.since the glyphs are gone they should probably find a new way to detect the new dark ages or maybe just try guess at them - this may be a part of t4's plot -i dunno.

jtr7
4th Jul 2009, 13:18
...........................

hexhunter
4th Jul 2009, 14:16
I do think that T4 shouldn't end on a big cliffhanger, but there should be hints of future events or enemies and maybe side factions, like the Necromancers, could slowly grow through the games, adding mystery now that there are supposedly no prophecies.

Also I don't want the same thing that happened with the Mechanists happening again, no faction should completely disappear if it offers more variety in gameplay, and the main enemy faction in T4 could become an ally (or atleast less of an enemy) in T5.

FriendlyStranger
4th Jul 2009, 14:19
I'm an enemy to an end that would be absolute - I don't think that's necessary. Just create a game which has a story and an end for this specific story. Don't end the whole series, don't do a completely open ending.

Thief games are only released every few years, there ain't the danger to become Tomb Raider. And since nowadays even single releases are split up into a series of parts...(like Starcraft 2)

LordGervasius
4th Jul 2009, 14:44
I would love to see a few more thief games. This series isn't dead by any means yet.

I find it kind of sad however that a new generation gamers will have no clue what a joy it was to play TDP And TMA.

They should make theif 4 then remake 1 and 2 exactly with the engine.(yeah right)

Hamadriyad
4th Jul 2009, 15:05
You guys are greedy as devs are.

hexhunter
4th Jul 2009, 15:08
I was hoping Konami would do MGS1 in MGS4s engine, I imagine such expansions could be possible as downloadable content, lots of DLC will help spread the games out a bit, and support for FMs...

Actually, if someone sorts out TDP and TMAs rights the old ones could be refitted for modern OSs and sold on sites like Good Old Games. Maybe included in future box sets.

LordGervasius
4th Jul 2009, 15:49
I was hoping Konami would do MGS1 in MGS4s engine, I imagine such expansions could be possible as downloadable content, lots of DLC will help spread the games out a bit, and support for FMs...

Actually, if someone sorts out TDP and TMAs rights the old ones could be refitted for modern OSs and sold on sites like Good Old Games. Maybe included in future box sets.

That sounds more realistic than my suggestion and It would be a good solution to the problem of running these games on modern OS.

Platinumoxicity
4th Jul 2009, 16:00
Every Thief game has introduced new mysteries but TDS was the only one that really did explain all of these mysteries, thus leaving the continuation of the series open.

Thief 1 = "Beware the dawn of the Metal Age", The Eye, Viktoria =>Thief 2, Mechanists, pagans, TDS, The Final glyph.
Thief 2 = Gamall, Caduca, keeper library, prophecies, "Was it written? In your books?!"=>TDS keeper stuff
TDS=Kurshoks, the artifacts, glyph magic, Lauryl,=> TDS, Compendium, The Final Glyph, glyphs were destroyed, Gamall was defeated.

The first 3 games were a trilogy where the first game started a chain of events that led to the end 3rd game. There are no unexplained mysteries left for T4 to start from, so the devs can really make the story unique and new and they don't have to limit their imagination. :)

FriendlyStranger
4th Jul 2009, 17:26
I think there are plenty of mysteries still unsolved

-does the Builder exist like the Trickster
-what's up to our pals the mechanists
-what happened to the eye

and so on. Stop declaring TDS as the end of days plz.

jtr7
4th Jul 2009, 21:04
...........................

Platinumoxicity
4th Jul 2009, 21:28
I think there are plenty of mysteries still unsolved

-does the Builder exist like the Trickster
-what's up to our pals the mechanists
-what happened to the eye

and so on. Stop declaring TDS as the end of days plz.

I didn't declare TDS as the end of days. I meant that TDS concluded the events of the trilogy which means that the end allows a new sequel but the lack of one would have made sense if one was never made. ;)

Kold
4th Jul 2009, 22:33
I would love another trilogy, I just hope the plot for Thief 4 is just as good as DS... The necromancer idea sounds good.. Maybe the Keepers find more unfulfilled prophecies in "lost" books? Maybe there are more lost things like the glyphs in the Kurshok underground kingdom in DS, and it starts by you seeking those lost items, and those lead to discoveries?

Kold
4th Jul 2009, 22:35
Wait, maybe the Kurshok should play a bigger role in Thief 4? The Pagans and Hammerites could still be warring with each other, and that could add length to the game, but maybe the Kurshoks are on the verge of making a comeback or something? Maybe former Keepers give knowledge to them? I dont know.... lol.

Sierra Oscar
4th Jul 2009, 23:03
Should be end. Otherwise, may turn to Tomb Raider.

You can continue to develop games, and bring fresh concepts into the gameplay without always having to go back to the same old tried concept.

That is where the real challenge lies for developers.

Hamadriyad
5th Jul 2009, 08:18
I would love another trilogy, I just hope the plot for Thief 4 is just as good as DS... The necromancer idea sounds good.. Maybe the Keepers find more unfulfilled prophecies in "lost" books? Maybe there are more lost things like the glyphs in the Kurshok underground kingdom in DS, and it starts by you seeking those lost items, and those lead to discoveries?

What Keepers? No more Keepers now.(except Garrett.)
And I don't want to see Kurshoks again.

Platinumoxicity
5th Jul 2009, 08:50
What Keepers? No more Keepers now.(except Garrett.)

No, I don't think that Garrett is a keeper either anymore.

From my understanding the keepers' status as real keepers ended when Gamall's corruption entered the order. Garrett's status as the true keeper started when he entered the order and ended when he got rid of the corruption and the source of it, the glyphs.

Hamadriyad
5th Jul 2009, 09:10
No, I don't think that Garrett is a keeper either anymore.

From my understanding the keepers' status as real keepers ended when Gamall's corruption entered the order. Garrett's status as the true keeper started when he entered the order and ended when he got rid of the corruption and the source of it, the glyphs.

I don't agree with you.

Platinumoxicity
5th Jul 2009, 09:17
I don't agree with you.

Well I guess we'll only see when T4 comes out. :D

Personally I will facepalm if it goes the way you have interpreted. Not because I mind, but because then I believe the devs have not paid attention to the story. Jtr7, help me out here. Text quotes please! :p

Hamadriyad
5th Jul 2009, 09:27
Well I guess we'll only see when T4 comes out. :D



Yes.:D

FriendlyStranger
5th Jul 2009, 09:53
I think you shouldn't display such a narrow perspective on story and story development. It could be that the glyphs aren't really gone - there is no rule that everything which disappeared in one point of a storyline can't reappear in later stories. Especially in the Thief world.

The Keepers reached their destination in TDS? Well then give em a new one.

Hamadriyad
5th Jul 2009, 10:00
This is not a narrow perspective, this is fact. Glyhps are gone forever, Keepers are gone forever. Every effort to bring them back is cheap way to continue the story.

FriendlyStranger
5th Jul 2009, 10:05
This is not a narrow perspective, this is fact. Glyhps are gone forever, Keepers are gone forever. Every effort to bring them back is cheap way to continue the story.

Says who? - just because you want it to be that way? Listinig to you people could make one believe there are "10 commandments for writers and computer game stories" hidden somewhere in the bible.

Hamadriyad
5th Jul 2009, 10:18
Says who? - just because you want it to be that way? Listinig to you people could make one believe there are "10 commandments for writers and computer game stories" hidden somewhere in the bible.

Bring back Keepers, bring back glyphs, Viktoria, Mechanists, Constantine and happily ever after then. Just like nothing is happen.

FriendlyStranger
5th Jul 2009, 10:25
It doesn't have to be like nothing happened, but if you want to view it that way so bad there is no point in arguing.

Hamadriyad
5th Jul 2009, 10:35
Old persons, old factions don't come back just because people love them.There was a trilogy and it ended.There is a new fresh game that we are looking forward for it. New things should be happen, fresh things. Devs shouldn't stuck in old things. That's what I mean, that's what I want.

FriendlyStranger
5th Jul 2009, 10:41
Old persons, old factions don't come back just because people love them.There was a trilogy and it ended.There is a new fresh game that we are looking forward for it. New things should be happen, fresh things. Devs shouldn't stuck in old things. That's what I mean, that's what I want.

Maybe they weren't gone initially...

Platinumoxicity
5th Jul 2009, 10:44
The most interesting thing in the end of TDS was the moment when the keeper was looking at the empty books and asked: "They’ve all... gone. What will we do? What will become of The City without us?"

Frankly, I really was getting bored of the keepers and I feel somewhat relieved now that they and their writings have no authority in the City anymore. The most interesting thing, the one thing that everyone would like to know is what will become of The City without the keepers?

jtr7
6th Jul 2009, 06:37
........................

Platinumoxicity
6th Jul 2009, 08:29
I dismiss the one line at the end of the trilogy as meaning that the entire rest of the trilogy is a lie or unimportant.

I've been trying to say that but I couldn't do it without your expertise, sir. :)

Hamadriyad
6th Jul 2009, 09:21
Hamadriyad: You want an entirely different game then. Similar mechanics, loot goals, and nothing else, but called Thief. The trilogy's wrapped up, but why leave that world we've barely begun to explore? Entire populations don't disappear just because you don't want them around, so you are asking for another world or another continent.
.

Noo. Why do you think that? Because I said not old things, I want fresh things? When I said old things I meant completely passed away things. Viktoria, Mechanists etc. Besides you said what I said: Keepers and glyphs are gone.(because this is fact.) Am I wrong? I meant no need to bring them back. Again, am I wrong?
And thanks for another good post.:)

FriendlyStranger
6th Jul 2009, 09:23
If everyone would be like that, we would never get any surprising, refreshing storyline - if you always limit yourself to every single sentence once spoken in a book, movie, game when making a sequel...

Whats if the glyphs most keepers knew where a kind of conspiracy, induced by a group within the order. They forged glyph, manipulated them by magic, to set the world to the balance THEY deemed right. They are the real keepers using the order for their purpose maybe are in possession of the real prophecies.

Voila and the Keepers could continue, in a yet smaller number, to do their stuff in T4. Maybe more in secrecy like in T1,2 - but they could be present. That's no break with the canon, that's just a way of building it on.

In storywriting as in real life anything can happen and opposing to what some said: Claiming otherwise is narrow minded.

Hamadriyad
6th Jul 2009, 09:25
Why do you love keepers so much?

Anyway, mechanists wasn't new? Didn't you surprise? I am not narrow minded, just I don't like cheap resurrection stories. Whenever they stuck they bring back dead ones.

FriendlyStranger
6th Jul 2009, 09:29
Why do you love keepers so much?

I don't love em, I hated TDS for it's storyline. I just say: Don't exclude something or say it ain't possible, when it actually still could be used. I don't need the keeper order back, I don't want it to be that way... I just say its not impossible.

And lets face one thing: The glyphs belong to Thief ... they appear in the intros of every game, in some levels... They are part of the Thief brand like the three stripes are for adidas - you don't take em away wghen making new shoe designs.

Hamadriyad
6th Jul 2009, 09:38
Ahh, sorry man, I will never agree with you in this argument. (I really love TDS storyline.) I hope we find what we want in Thief IV. :)

FriendlyStranger
6th Jul 2009, 09:40
Ahh, sorry man, I will never agree with you in this argument. (I really love TDS storyline.) I hope we find what we want in Thief IV. :)

Yeah that's perfectly ok, that's a matter of taste - I didn't mean to attack you.

Hamadriyad
6th Jul 2009, 09:41
Yeah that's perfectly ok, that's a matter of taste - I didn't mean to attack you.

Hey, I completely agree with you.:D

jtr7
6th Jul 2009, 09:56
Hamadriyad, you are correct, I misunderstood you. I skipped something and didn't realize it and thought you were saying the old things didn't have to come back and you wanted something not old. I blew it, and I apologize.:o:flowers:



If the Keepers and Glyphs come back, then TDS really was nothing for the Keepers to be scared of, and the whole main story of TDS was for nothing, and the Final Glyph only targeted a single person named Gamall (not including giving Garrett a key scar), and all the prophecies about the Dark Age were a lie. This is suggesting there was nothing FINAL about it, merely a hiccup, nothing for the Keepers to DREAD for centuries.

I love the Keepers, myself, but I can also write my own fan-fiction.


Yes. The trilogy was drowning in Glyphs, and we loved them, and they were woven into the fabric of the universe. And now they are gone--for a long time. We need to see that world bereft of the Keepers and the Glyphs to see exactly how powerful and important they were, to appreciate what it was all for to begin with, to watch Garrett realize his desire for it to all go away was misguided, while we watch The City change into a place where the people become scarier than ever with how they treat each other.

If the new game starts a long time after TDS, then we can see the Glyphs coming back and the beginnings of a new Order because the time is right. No, I'm not suggesting a modern Thief, just an extended timeline for The City to be in a state screaming for balance.

Hamadriyad
6th Jul 2009, 10:16
It's ok jtr. :) Just I wanted to know that I am wrong or not in your view. (sometimes I can miss some points.) Thanks for your post, it's really informative. (just like your every post.)
:wave:

FriendlyStranger
6th Jul 2009, 10:35
If the Keepers and Glyphs come back, then TDS really was nothing for the Keepers to be scared of, and the whole main story of TDS was for nothing, and the Final Glyph only targeted a single person named Gamall (not including giving Garrett a key scar), and all the prophecies about the Dark Age were a lie. This is suggesting there was nothing FINAL about it, merely a hiccup, nothing for the Keepers to DREAD for centuries.

I love the Keepers, myself, but I can also write my own fan-fiction.


Yes. The trilogy was drowning in Glyphs, and we loved them, and they were woven into the fabric of the universe. And now they are gone--for a long time. We need to see that world bereft of the Keepers and the Glyphs to see exactly how powerful and important they were, to appreciate what it was all for to begin with, to watch Garrett realize his desire for it to all go away was misguided, while we watch The City change into a place where the people become scarier than ever with how they treat each other.

If the new game starts a long time after TDS, then we can see the Glyphs coming back and the beginnings of a new Order because the time is right. No, I'm not suggesting a modern Thief, just an extended timeline for The City to be in a state screaming for balance.

Now for most Keeper who would not belong to the inner circle, it still would have been a big scare, since they believed and still believe in the glyphs provided to them... for them the order IS over. This could also become somekind of new faction... I'm just talking about what COULD happen. Everything speculation. Only some ideas.

jtr7
6th Jul 2009, 11:15
Okay cool, Hamadriyad! And thanks!

FriendlyStranger
7th Jul 2009, 10:20
Why limit yourself within the canon, when you can expand it in a legitimate way? Did T2 break the rules cause it introduced the mechanists and robots? I feel here is a lot of arbitrary restricting going on.

jtr7
7th Jul 2009, 20:33
....................

FriendlyStranger
8th Jul 2009, 09:47
So basically there are unlimited possibilities, but some of the possibilities (reappearance of glyphs) are not possible?

jtr7
8th Jul 2009, 10:32
........................

FriendlyStranger
8th Jul 2009, 12:25
You cannot move along the x axis or the z axis, but can move infinitely along the y axis...You can move in one direction infinitely along the x axis, a finite amount in both directions along the z axis, and forever in any direction along the y axis.

Open up to the possibilities that fit within the established rules.

Yeah and that's where our pov splits up - I think everything is allowed in arts, writing included. There are non of these rules (x,y,z) - they just represent what you think is best for Thief, that's ok, but I won't follow you with that.

If its done nicely you can introduce the ewok treepeople with the next Thief, I don't care. If its done nicely you could bring up an alternative development to the happenings in T3.
--> Similar to a "what would have been if Germany won WW2" scenario story. You need to differ between what can be done and what you personally want to see. What if the glyphs didn't disappear... What if the mechanists never split from the hammerites.

Above all as I always said: TDS did in no way respect T1,2 - why should so respect it and it's story. Screw TDS, if you want to, lets pretend it did never happen.

There is a slight differnce between saying "I don't like your idea" and saying "it ain't possible".



This profound need to rip the trilogy apart for favorite chunks and graft them onto chunks of other games to make a non-Thief gaming experience but with the same brand name is baffling and worrisome.

You always talk about inventing straw man's arguments...


Are you a Thief enthusiast or just a gamer that wants a new game, regardless?

I just liked the Thief games - my favourite games besides DX, Gothic.

What you maybe should consider is, that you jtr7, do not have the monopoly on Thief interpretation and "fandom". I didn't spend nearly as much time scientifically exploring every line of text within these titles as you obviously did. I don't know half as much about Thief's background as you do. I will give you that - but I DO realise: It's just two good games. It's not a revelation of some kind, worth to be lifted up onto a pedestal of admiration, which goes far beyond healthy measures. And most importantly - I just want T4 to become a good game, but I recognize the ways to that are plentiful, and much easier and opener than you might think.

Half of the laws you and others invent upon the creation of "canon Thief content" are nothing else then mere inventions of your mind.

---

Tutonic Drone
8th Jul 2009, 16:04
Don't mean to bust up a perfectly decent argument but your guys positions are rather hazy to me. Tell me if I got this right.

jtr7: You want the game to move forward in a new direction allowed by the Mythos of Thief to this point including TDS.

FriendlyStranger: You are pretty much keeping an open mind as far as plot goes as long as it is done well.

So pretty much you guys are arguing about whether this should be a reboot or not? Am I right? I'm against reboots most the time, they give too much chance for criticism and comparison of the original. Sometimes like in the case of Batman Begins, they are done well but they can be horribly messed up and I don't like taking a risk like that.

If I were to pick a direction for Thief I would work more with the City Wardens the Brotherhood of the Hand (the mages from TG) and a new order of Keepers. I would have the Trickster have a guest appearance like in TDS but I would save him up for hopefully a 5th game.

All this talk of glyphs confuses me. Did they say the glyphs are gone forever anywhere? I figured it was the glyph "magic" that was destroyed not the glyphs themselves. I mean a glyph destroyed the glyphs? Seriously? The glyphs are super powerful and as they say a house divided... The way I see it everything the glyphs had done up to that point had been erased leaving Gamar too weak to use a door glyph even. Like Orland said the glyphs and their prophecies had become the Keepers keepers so this makes them have to relearn everything the hard way.

Platinumoxicity
8th Jul 2009, 16:45
All this talk of glyphs confuses me. Did they say the glyphs are gone forever anywhere? I figured it was the glyph "magic" that was destroyed not the glyphs themselves. I mean a glyph destroyed the glyphs? Seriously? The glyphs are super powerful and as they say a house divided... The way I see it everything the glyphs had done up to that point had been erased leaving Gamall too weak to use a door glyph even. Like Orland said the glyphs and their prophecies had become the Keepers keepers so this makes them have to relearn everything the hard way.

I think the most obvious interpretation is that the final glyph was made as a failsafe that would destroy all the glyphs if someone used the glyphs for wrong purposes.

What came to my mind:
The earliest keepers wanted to "try out" the glyph magic as potential tools that the keepers could use. Back then Gamall noticed the power of those glyphs and started the conspiracy that erased the fact that the glyphs weren't meant to be final. Gamall masked the presence of the final glyph until she could find it and destroy it herself. As centuries passed, the keepers forgot that the glyphs were only meant to be tested because Gamall removed the records of that. The final glyph was there from the beginning to be used to erase the glyphs if they would prove to be worthless or too dangerous.

Tutonic Drone
8th Jul 2009, 17:11
That still doesn't make sense to me. If they were trying it out how were they able to make that first glyph the most powerful? To me the glyphs seem more like a part of nature like fire and air not a creation of the Keepers. Course this whole conversation is somewhat pointless as we have no clue how exactly the glyphs work. There are a billion different ways you could interpret them, you could even give them a sentience of their own. We will probably just have to wait and find out how Eidos M interprets it.

FriendlyStranger
8th Jul 2009, 18:21
There are a billion different ways you could interpret them, you could even give them a sentience of their own. We will probably just have to wait and find out how Eidos M interprets it.

Yeah and that's one of the things I was trying to communicate. I just wanted to oppose the fixed story interpretations. There are differnet approaches how to recept what happened in Thief and it's not fair to put one above the others.

jtr7
8th Jul 2009, 21:51
........................

Tutonic Drone
8th Jul 2009, 22:23
Dude I don't know where you are getting some of this mystic thief knowledge but I see no basis for some of them. As far as I know the most amount of information on the Sentients is in the book Caduca was reading before she snuffed it. That book says they are old they have minds of their own and they cause strife. Nothing about being more powerful than gods. Also I can't find anything on the relation between the Keepers and the Glyphs. The keepers do seem to pray to the Glyphs but that doesn't mean much.

The ability to prophecy is a tricky one as it passes through time, or we must assume so, to receive the future. If we were to accept my idea that the final glyph didn't destroy glyphs but merely reset them then the glyphs trying to go past that point would also be reset by the final glyph making the following age dark. You seem to be set on your way of thinking. The "facts" you are presenting, 'The keepers didn't create the glyphs' 'The keeper magic is not accessible' are just as plausible as ours. Unless you can give some text from Thief or a conversation your whole argument turns about upon itself.

I am perfectly happy to be correct as I have said I am new to this series and have only played through the games once but I fail to see these facts you are so adamant about.

jtr7
8th Jul 2009, 23:17
....................

Tutonic Drone
9th Jul 2009, 03:10
I don't know where you figure that I think the keepers are being lied to. The whole deal with the Final Glyph maybs? Let me restate my opinion of this matter. I am not stating any of this as fact merely as an alternate take on the story.

Tutonic Drone's Theory on Glyphs:
The Final Glyph was the reset button on the Keepers. It reset all glyph magic taking everyone back to square 1. The glyphs themselves were not destroyed, all the magic they had worked to that point merely erased. My reasoning with why the prophecies could not by pass that point in time I have made already clearer than I could here. I could talk more on that, matters to deal with time is one of my favorite subjects, but I don't like to be a bore.

There is of course no direct support for my theory but in Chronicles of Daegar: Epilogue it says, talking about the glyph Gamall uses to shape shift: "With no way to destroy it," I don't know how long apart Daegar was from the creators of the Final Glyph but since Gamall knew what it did they must have at least had the means to find out. And Gamall says about the Glyph of Unbinding: "You are like the Last of All Glyphs" It could be implied that these two glyphs are related although she does say after this " - a terror to me." but the link has been made. The shape of these two glyphs is also slightly similar but not enough for any iron clad argument.

I enjoy arguments and like good arguer am emotionally detached when I engage in them so I don't mind people being blunt. Ad hominem attacks are irritating but when one argues on the internet they are common enough. So you don't need to explain yourself to me.

jtr7
9th Jul 2009, 05:48
......................

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 09:38
One who spends too much time with something, may it be person or subject, loses vast amounts of objectivity regarding it. That is also what happens here - you are over-protective and lost the touch with the "gamers" with actions like this one. Posting more than 30 (!) quotations is so far from anybody reading them... Thief 4 should not be a game for the masses, but I think it should be a game for more than a group of 10 people who made it their it their icon.

Take one step back from this exegetic crusade jtr, it won't help. As far as I remember we had the exact same discussion back in the TTLG forums, our discussions repeat since none of us is likely to change his position. You say I don't know Thief, I say you took it much too serious in the last decade.

If you really think you will get a Tom Clancy - like, 700 pages, desert-dry storyline about the Barons political endeavour, which is liked by more than a handful of people... I think you should reconsider. Your demands are so hardcore and so strict that hardly anything new can come up. You always stress you don't want a reboot, but I have to ask: What else should be possible?

Thief never was about the smart ass story "Badie wants to destroy city, Garrett opposes"
The thing why T1,2 was great, was the way they presented the game and its story. Additionally great missions, a unique design and setting melted together to a marvellous game.

You fly so high jtr, that you can hardly see the basics anymore.

Its senseless for me to continue this, because for every point I bring into discussion two counter "facts" are beeing invented, its like a fight with the Hydra.

Everyone can decide, if he or she wants a story as I am suggesting, where anything could happen from cyborg mechanists to a robot city - or a story which is trying to obey the canon word for word and therefore can never provide anything new except the Baron having struggle with his shoe laces - uhmm no sorry reverse that, shoe laces have not been mentioned till today, they can't happen. sry

ToMegaTherion
9th Jul 2009, 10:06
I think jtr7 has every right to try to persuade the world to make Thief 4 like he wants it to be. That's basically why we're all here after all.

But yeah, I also hope they ignore him.

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 10:12
I didn't say he shouldn't point out his opinion - I was only defending my view. I personally hope they find a moderate solution which fits into the middle.

Herr_Garrett
9th Jul 2009, 11:13
It's only that your ideas totally are out of thouch with the way things work, FriendlyStranger. This kind of thinking led to the new Star Wars trilogy, the new Star Trek, and couple of other crappy stuff which wanted to make something "new and cool and popular and all around nice", ignoring the background, and miserably failed. When you have something established - be it in the real world or in an imaginary one - you can't ignore it. Bringing back the Keepers or Mechanists as they were is just simply stupid. It's like reading a book where one of the characters gets killed, and then suddenly up he pops again, without any explanation whatsoever. Now, is he alive or not? What the heck is going on? So you read on, with horrified fascination as you see that more and more of this crap happens, and there is absolutely no explanation in the end. Because there can't be one. Because the Mechanists are gone, and the Keepers are done for without Glyphs. Yes, as individuals they might go on (members of both factions), they could even start the Most Worshipful Tea Society of Ex-Keepers Former Mechanists, with bots as waiters, but you can't have them as their former selves.

They are impotent, totally looted, leaderless, and facing a City which would mug them the first possible moment. Sure, you can go on pursuing dreams of world domination and practice your evil laugh, but you gotta get food, a roof over your head, and so forth. That sort of thing gets you down after a while.

jtr7
9th Jul 2009, 11:24
..........................

Flashart
9th Jul 2009, 11:30
Part of the difficulty in all of this is that the trilogy story wasn't written all in one go (I'm guessing, Maybe T1 + T2 were). TDS seems to be a result of a conversation that went along the lines of "Right, how do we tie up all these story ends?".
We'll never know what was predetermined, moments of genius inspiration, or sheer convenient expedience. Then to try and justify all this as the "solemn" word is really problematic, but it's all we've got to work with.
I've advocated often for the introduction of several new characters and factions etc. They don't have to play big roles in T4 but it's just so there's a bit of "elbow room" in the direction that any future stories or FMs might take. While I think T4 should embrace all that has gone before (including TDS) it shouldn't be forced into one direction.The problem with the "one direction" is that the stakes will keep getting raised till Garrett saves the world. As I say, don't ignore any facts, but if taking a sudden left turn opens up greater possibilities then I'd be willing to accept that whatever changed occurred in the space between TDS and T4, providing of course, that it's not complete lunacy.

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 12:14
My invention is based on in-game materials. Where yours comes from, I cannot tell. But since you don't believe the canon matters, this is not a conversation that you can participate in. You could start a thread and state what you expect from participants, and continue this existentialist Matrix world approach.


1+1=2. I'm sorry you think that's a matter of belief. 1?2?3?A=4444, pick a solution, but ignore no operatives.


My ideas like reappearance of glyphs and/or Mechanists are based on imagination and the fact it was NOWHERE SAID EXPLICITLY that

A) There ain't gonna be a prequel to T3, which can contain stuff mentioned

B) That it's absolutely impossible after the events in TDS that Mechanists and or Glyphs/Keepers reappear.

--- You think in circles, ever on the heed to find any slight hint within the games, that you think supports your view. And you then use it as "proof", which of course is again nothing than your interpretation.

--- The glyphs may have ended, wiped out - but like with some plants, they could regrow, even if you have cut away the visible part above the ground... but the parts in the soil, the roots, bulbs remain. Its called imagination. Start using your own instead copying the ones from LGS ad nauseum.



It's only that your ideas totally are out of thouch with the way things work, FriendlyStranger. This kind of thinking led to the new Star Wars trilogy, the new Star Trek, and couple of other crappy stuff which wanted to make something "new and cool and popular and all around nice", ignoring the background, and miserably failed.

No, wrong. What made Star wars 1-3 bad, Indiana Jones 4 sad, and TDS flawed, was NOT the reappearance of old characters/groups. What made em bad was the introduction of new, bad characters.

Example: Indiana Jones 4:
- LeBeouf (or whatever this person is called)
- Russians instead of the Nazis (which just belong to Indy)
- Alien storyline badly done

Star Wars:
- Jar Jar Binks
- crappy and cheesy dialogue (Padme + Guy talking about democracy)
- children playing heroe

---

If Star Wars would have sticked to the formula shown on 4-6...

Indeed, you are getting the Thief formula wrong, spoiling it with made up restrictions and rules. Unimaginative thinking lead to the IJ,SW disasters, a lack of inspiration, and that's what you are showing, not I... I'm trying to think stuff up, you are just trying to contain and kill any new thoughts.

ToMegaTherion
9th Jul 2009, 13:27
Well, i guess I was being unnecessarily rude by saying I hope they ignore jtr7, he shouldn't be ignored, but I hope that if the designers have a fun idea that happens to contradict an unused conversation in a previous game, they do not hesitate to use their fun idea.

Tutonic Drone
9th Jul 2009, 14:48
Hey I'm going to make another point in my argument here but if peoples are getting tired of this please tell me an I'll move this to PM's. Like I said I love good arguments but I want to try to be as gracious and kind as I can here so if I am irritating people with this go ahead and say the word and I'll stop.

It would be nice if you stripped these quotes to the bare essentials. A good percent have little to no impact on the argument what so ever. The rest are open to interpretation as is, this being my main point in this argument, the whole game.

I would like to start with your most 'convincing' argument but first I will address the use of glyphs. If you remember in TDS in order to use the door glyph you must go through the "The Acolyte Ritual" as the glyphs have been reset so have all use of them by the keepers. Only those who remember these rituals will regain use of them. I do not know where you get the word "crippled" maybe from this quote: My hand falls useless to my side. Doubly cursed in living death.
That is Caduca correct? This word 'My' could of course be applied to the Keepers, but there is again another interpretation. The man/woman who wrote this is a prophet trying to gain access to the future, but all his attempts are not merely deflected but absorbed by the Final Glyph being used by Garret. This is the living death the prophet could feel the power leave him and head into the future and he knows the glyphs are working but past that point it is as if death has over taken them. Besides this verse would contradict the others that speak about the unwritten times if it were in fact speaking on the state in these ages.
I just noticed it could also be from this quote: Your Hands will be Crippled, and you will Perish as the Wretched Outcast in the Bleak Unwritten. This is pretty obviously talking about the events in TDS not outside it. The crippling is what Gamall does to them it speaks nothing of what is to come in the Unwritten times.

Now for the more persuasive arguments you gave. "All will be darkness and shadow, and the future shall be unwritten forever." Notice these two words. There position is very important. If they were switched I would agree with you but that is not the case. Again this is written from the past and is read to Garret. The word future is a vague word, it comes from the Latin futurus "about to be," and what part of the future it pertains to is unclear. It could be that it pertains to the entire future like you suppose but it could merely be in reference to the dark ages to come. But how would they be able to prophecy about the future since they can not see the future? In this case you seem to believe the prophecies lie, or at least Orland.

Besides this I see little in your quotes in reference to this argument. A lot of witty saying and basic info on TDS but nothing substantial. Yes I think the Glyph of unbinding is not the same as the Last Glyph but their shape and usage are similar. What else... There really isn't anything substantial here... You point out another location where the Glyphs are personified. As they seem to be tempters and seem to cause good men to lose their balance I find it hard to believe they would commit suicide in order to stop Gamall. I'm going to stop here. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you somewhere but next time stick to the subject please and don't flood this with so many quotes it is hard to wade through them to find your main points. Thank ya.

Oh and in reference to the whole bad reboots you guys are forgetting 1. Batman Begins, oh wait that one rocked! :) Not saying I am for rebooting thief I am not. I'm just saying they aren't always bad and none of this is worth pulling your hair out over. In the words of Bob Marley "Don't worry about a thing. Cause every little thing is gonna be all right"

P.S. Another great reboot is the Italian Job, most you kiddies are probably to young to remember the original. I suggest renting it. It is different from the new one but has a killer ending.

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 15:01
Some very interesting points.

And Batman is a nice example. I loved the 60's TV series for it had unbeatable trash, slapstick character. And I also liked the new Batman films with Christian Bale. The Batman series did very much right, from change to change, it preserved the core aspects and yet invented itsself always again and again. From fun to coolnes. From a happy mood to a more serious noir setting. And why? Because to some extend they had the courage to change things.

The newest Batman installment could never have existet, if you put things the way some people here do... since the Joker already died with Jack Nicholson in "Batman" from 1989. How can he reappear in Batman The Dark Knight?!?!

You see open up a bit people.

Flashart
9th Jul 2009, 15:11
No story is ever going withstand such forensic scrutiny as the Latin definition of a single word. Similarly, believing one's own opinions (even if gathered from a number of facts) don't necessarily make the "definitive" truth. As I've said elsewhere, you get what you're given, the dev's decide how it plays out. When I stared this thread I meant it examine whether people wanted the story to begin either straight after TDS and continue, or acknowledge TDS but move into a completely new area.

Tutonic Drone
9th Jul 2009, 15:39
And I don't mean to prove my theory beyond a shadow of a doubt or delve to a ridicules depth into the text. My main point is that stories are left to be interpreted. Each person reads their life experiences into a story and come out with a different idea. Take these two sentences for example.

The man paused and looked around. Something was wrong, the world was far too quiet.

What you see in your minds eye is far different from what anyone else sees. And what happens next is even less clear. We could debate on what we know here in these two sentences for hours but we will never guess what the writer will say next until we read it. Stories aren't facts, there is never only 1 conclusion. It is why we humans as a race are so interested in them because they do different things for each of us and with our own imagination we can create our own ending. I find it comical researching this video game just like scholars I know research the bible in order to make my point but I hope I have made it. It isn't a question of 1+1=2 but a question of what does 1 mean to you and what happens after it equals 2. Does it turn back to 1? 2/2=1 or does it join with ten to create a greater number? 2*10=20 Anything can happen next in Thief you can't limit yourself or squash another's imagination.

(Lol for anyone who read my unedited post sorry for that major math mistake. There is a reason I was an English major in college. :))

AngelRose777
9th Jul 2009, 15:42
Ok, I'm definitely not THAT hardcore as to dissect it, but I do think you can't just ignore the background. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE all of the Thief games, but I do think it needs to be more flexible so that more than just the hardcore players will buy it (they have to make a profit, after all). Coming from the average player perspective, it needs to acknowledge the background, but there should definitely be room for interpretation. jtr made an undeniably strong arguement for the end of the glyphs, so there should probably an end to the glyphs. But what to do instead? That's the hard part to figure out. I was really sad since T3 made it a little too clear that the series was at an end. This is why I'm now SO FREAKING HAPPY that a T4 is coming out :D However, they may....and it pains me to say it...need to start a new storyline of sorts, because the ending seemed to say that Garret had passed on the torch to another. But Garret better be in there somewhere!

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 16:35
No story is ever going withstand such forensic scrutiny as the Latin definition of a single word. Similarly, believing one's own opinions (even if gathered from a number of facts) don't necessarily make the "definitive" truth. As I've said elsewhere, you get what you're given, the dev's decide how it plays out. When I stared this thread I meant it examine whether people wanted the story to begin either straight after TDS and continue, or acknowledge TDS but move into a completely new area.

And my initial thought on that would have been, to begin the new storyline after the happenings of TMA. So you could use everything you want for a Thief game, from Keepers to Mechs to Hammerites, to glyphs. It wouldn't break with any story given to that point. That would be my compromise ->for the case some of the fans couldn't live with my ideas. If I would be part of the development team I would do it that way. Opposing even that is almost polemic.

I would like to see a game centered really on the thieving aspect. A series of really legendary jobs maybe which built up Garrett's reputation. I always liked missions like Bafford's best... in the beginning before the storylines really built up. Shipping and receiving and the like... I think the wish for the free roam city hub, somehow comes from this preference for extra-"storial" missions.

jtr7
10th Jul 2009, 01:23
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/thief/images/7/71/Garrett.gif

FriendlyStranger
10th Jul 2009, 09:21
It's a fight for monoculture, not for the good cause, interesting self perspective though - Don Quijote. Reality will most probably get you down from your self-pleasant horse. A little more information about T4 a little more marketing, meaning a little more moderate fans joining up here.

But I have to thank you, you made Thief 4 a granted success for me, because even the things they do wrong, every awful design decision, will give me the warm, cosy feeling that somewhere on earth you sit, hating it. That's my universal compensation.

Flashart
10th Jul 2009, 10:14
I'm certainly not suggesting any cheapening of the story or indeed any ad-hoc narrative used simply for expedience. What I was trying to get at is that TDS could if you wish be used to "wipe the slate clean". No Keepers, immediate inter-faction hostility, no direct threat to the city, Garrett could just start a new day and take it from there. Or, there's a few tiny threads that are left over that could be used. It's not abandoning or ignoring the past it's just how much value you see in continuing it. Was TDS's ending made to purposely end the series, or just end the trilogy? Should a new trilogy start, or should each game end naturally, not assuming any continuation?

Herr_Garrett
10th Jul 2009, 12:41
It's a fight for monoculture, not for the good cause, interesting self perspective though - Don Quijote. Reality will most probably get you down from your self-pleasant horse. A little more information about T4 a little more marketing, meaning a little more moderate fans joining up here.

But I have to thank you, you made Thief 4 a granted success for me, because even the things they do wrong, every awful design decision, will give me the warm, cosy feeling that somewhere on earth you sit, hating it. That's my universal compensation.

So sad. Mommy forgot to teach you that gloating is not nice?

http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs43/f/2009/071/9/2/Spock_Shrug_by_greenpuppy3.jpg

ToMegaTherion
10th Jul 2009, 12:58
Surely you know that mothers are the biggest gloaters of all.

FriendlyStranger
10th Jul 2009, 13:28
So sad. Mommy forgot to teach you that gloating is not nice?

So we are doing the momma joke session right now? Ok my favourite is this one:

"Ur mommas so hairy the only language she speaks is wookie!"

Herr_Garrett
10th Jul 2009, 13:42
Surely you know that mothers are the biggest gloaters of all.

I agree with that :D Nevertheless, they should instill the anicent wisdom into their progeny... Or no?


So we are doing the momma joke session right now? Ok my favourite is this one:

"Ur mommas so hairy the only language she speaks is wookie!"

It was not a "momma joke".
And is yours funny? I am at loss.

FriendlyStranger
10th Jul 2009, 13:46
It was not a "momma joke".
And is yours funny? I am at loss.

No momma joke? Well thx for pointing out Einstein. I would have been really surprised if you would have got it...

esme
10th Jul 2009, 13:49
any danger of getting back on topic any time soon or are you guys just warming up ?

FriendlyStranger
10th Jul 2009, 13:58
any danger of getting back on topic any time soon or are you guys just warming up ?

Back to topic? Anytime - means, as soon as jtr's cringers stop mourning, cause they are no longer alone in their home turf at TTLG, secluded from reality...

smalljil
10th Jul 2009, 14:03
Back to topic? Anytime - means, as soon as jtr's cringers stop mourning, cause they are no longer alone in their home turf at TTLG, secluded from reality...

woah what kind of forum is this here?:scratch:

you guys still sober?

Herr_Garrett
10th Jul 2009, 14:10
any danger of getting back on topic any time soon or are you guys just warming up ?

Is there any topic left to get back to? UnfriendlyStranger will keep on being obnoxious just for the dubious fun of it.

FriendlyStranger
10th Jul 2009, 14:17
Oh, you can have the peace right now. On the other hand, if you/I keep pouring oil into the fire, you/I will have to live with the reactions.

Herr_Garrett
10th Jul 2009, 14:22
Oh, you can have the peace right now. On the other hand, if you/I keep pouring oil into the fire, you/I will have to live with the reactions.


Gaaaaaaarh, the horror of it! Don't punish me please!

Okay, ceasefire.

esme
10th Jul 2009, 14:24
will the people who are disagreeing kindly take it to PM so the rest of us don't have to plough through the personal comments to get to the topic being discussed

tarhiel
10th Jul 2009, 22:28
T4 story would definitely end with the game (T4 game, no "hints" for T5, please). Just from the tiny reason, that those hints may really suck, as somebody wrote before.

esme, you said you disagree wiith phrase: "all good things must come to an end."

But it is true. I do agree with this phrase from my heart, because if they will continue, logically, those games will decrease in quality. You can see that everywhere in film (Alien would be good example- extraordinary first film and *ehm* garbage fourth one- yes, I saw Special Edition, still sucks.) or TV series (it is better to make small series with really great script- Cowboy Bebop, for example, mini series- 24 parts + one movie).

Hamadriyad is right: fan missions are those pieces, which will make game alive. So therefore, EM, be so kind, and release editor with T4.

Hamadriyad
11th Jul 2009, 08:47
Ahh man,thanks. At last. Someone understand me.:)

Flashart
11th Jul 2009, 09:06
But the counter to that if that if you've got a real good story that spans a trilogy then you know that each one is not going to be a complete disaster. (Hopefully)
I like the option for the games narrative to end in every game, but stories of the city carry on.