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View Full Version : The battle between Old and New



protoss.Ecorin
19th Jun 2009, 08:26
I just had to make this topic after seeing countless others battling over what thief 4 should look like. Also the flamewars and dissing of Thief : Deadly Shadows.
In my opinion many of you don't know that the "real hardcore thief fans" are lower in numbers than the more casual players and people new to Thief series. If they just make a game to appeal only for T1 and T2 fans, they will get no profit from game sales at all.
I liked Thief DS! Sure, there were some minor things that I noticed, but I sure wont start to whine about it like a ***** on a Thief 4 committed forum.
What I'm saying is, they have to remodel the series to the current game market to appeal for a broader audience (including console platforms) if they want to survive.
Instead of forcing your own opinions what the game should look like and whining what Thief DS did wrong, I think they already know. Just let them do their job.
Hundreds of thousands > Thousands - You should figure this out on your own.

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 08:36
You've said absolutely nothing new and have just now whined the same whine we've heard for five years. We KNOW this. I have no tolerance for ideas that appeal to children more than adults. I have no tolerance for hardcore Thief fan haters. I have no tolerance for those who think TDS is entirely dismissed by most hardcore fans. I have no tolerance for anyone who perpetuates myths about the games, the development, and the fans. If someone thinks I'm wrong, all they have to do is give me the facts. Every idea that respects the heart and soul of Thief is welcome. Every idea that dismisses any of it to allow less thinking and more killing is no good, but once the game comes out, the player can bend and break the game to force it to conform all they want.

Myth
19th Jun 2009, 08:43
In my opinion many of you don't know that the "real hardcore thief fans" are lower in numbers than the more casual players and people new to Thief series. in my opinion your opinion is not a valid source of statistical information


If they just make a game to appeal only for T1 and T2 fans, they will get no profit from game sales at all.and how many game companies have you lead? How many games have YOU sold? Why do you presume and speak with such certainty? tl;dr What makes you such an expert?


I liked Thief DS! Sure, there were some minor things that I noticed, but I sure wont start to whine about it like a * on a Thief 4 committed forum. There is a difference between whining and pointing out the bad sides of a product. We push for a T4 closer to T1/T2 because the CONCEPT (look it up) was superb and made history. TDS failed to follow in the greatness of the first two games. TDP and TMA were liked by everyone because of what they are, and if Thief 4 follows in their footsteps it will be liked just as much.


What I'm saying is, they have to remodel the series to the current game market to appeal for a broader audience (including console platforms) if they want to survive. Eidos's survival is hardly based on Thief 4, but then again, you're the expert. Even so, appealing to a "broader" public suggests you can compare to the public the first two games appealed to. Care to elaborate?


Instead of forcing your own opinions what the game should look like and whining what Thief DS did wrong, I think they already know. Just let them do their job.
Hundreds of thousands > Thousands - You should figure this out on your own. Last i check no one was forcing things around here. This is a forum. Also, we are not impeding the work flow of the dev team ("let them do their job" thank you, we'll stop breaking knee caps now).Hundreds - thousends, etc. big words, big numbers. Show me the statistics behind your astonishing research.

Hamadriyad
19th Jun 2009, 08:43
You've said absolutely nothing new and have just now whined the same whine we've heard for five years. We KNOW this. I have no tolerance for ideas that appeal to children more than adults. I have no tolerance for hardcore Thief fan haters. I have no tolerance for those who think TDS is entirely dismissed by most hardcore fans. I have no tolerance for anyone who perpetuates myths about the games, the development, and the fans. If someone thinks I'm wrong, all they have to do is give me the facts. Every idea that respects the heart and soul of Thief is welcome. Every idea that dismisses any of it to allow less thinking and more killing is no good, but once the game comes out, the player can bend and break the game to force it to conform all they want.

Oh man! You are right but... calm down.

Nate
19th Jun 2009, 08:52
Well Protoss, I am a 'hardcore' fan. I also liked Thief Deadly Shadows.

It did have some flaws in terms of 3rd person view, half finished City Hub, insane income, insane carry capacity, dumbed down objectives, dumbed down map navigation, herky jerky controlled movement, puplish color on everything, arrow trails, loot glint, half done climbing gloves, rubber band ragdoll body physics, lame faction quests to get on Pagan/Hammerite good sides, and guards who ran out of breath after 10 seconds of running.

On the other hand, it had an amazing stealth/sound detection system, an excellent story, some extremely cool missions, some extremely cool opponents, cool Fences/Stores, a taste of city life, and decent graphics for the time.

Thief DS had some good points for sure. And it was fairly successful in terms of sales.

Now, there really isn't anything to argue at this point because you FORGOT to explain your view of how the devs need "to remodel the series to the current game market to appeal for a broader audience (including console platforms) if they want to survive".

Seriously, you made a grand statement without any substance....are you a politician or a lawyer? So, please enlighten us on with your ideas.

Considering how you REPRESENT a hundred thousand gamers who want to buy this game, I know the devs want to hear what you have to say.

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 08:56
I'm not fired up! Hahahaha! Like I said, this is five years of the same ignorant thing, so this is just years of experience coming out. No worries!


I find a strange commonality among those who really prefer TDS (no, not all, but many): they have a higher concentration of the unobservant among them, and blame others for their underdeveloped opinion. They see nothing wrong with parroting each other year after year instead of trying something unorthodox to make a point, like gathering facts, not feelings and perceptions.

protoss.Ecorin
19th Jun 2009, 08:58
Haha my test worked. I tried to see how many ignorant posters would reply with hate after posting that. The world is not empty of idiots yet. Thank you for participating.

Espion
19th Jun 2009, 09:02
I can't give figures, but I can point out the sheer quantity of FMs made for the first two games. To be fair though, that's just because people have been making them for ten years and TDS hasn't been out as long... Then again, the fact that people have been making them for ten years kind of demonstrates the longevity and appeal of the first two games.

How about the fact that in the many years since their release a number of people have been trying to mod modern engines to play like the original two games? That's a pretty good indicator that there's a powerful following for the first two games. I haven't seen any mention of people trying to make a game play like TDS.

I think your claim that the true hardcore fans are a minority is based soley on your opinion and has no basis in fact. Prove me wrong?

Also, game reviews are about as trustworthy as politicians. Dont' go throwing those numbers around because they mean very little and they aren't about to change anyone's opinions.

Lastly, those of us that dislike TDS have consistently given detailed arguments as to why we don't like it. This is not whining. If you'd like to see an example of whining, take a good look at the first post in this thread... Oh... That would be your post.

Personally, I think this is probably just a troll. But if TDS fans want to give a list of arguments as to why the third game is better than the first two then I'm sure we'd all love to sit around and discuss it. So far, all I've seen are people complaining that we don't like TDS and that we keep saying so.

Myth
19th Jun 2009, 09:04
Haha my test worked. I tried to see how many ignorant posters would reply with hate after posting that. The world is not empty of idiots yet. Thank you for participating. call the WAAAAMBULANCE, your e-penor just shrunk didn't it? :D:D:D It was a test now, when you saw what a failure you are. Better abandon this account and register a new one, to hide the shame and all.

Nate
19th Jun 2009, 09:05
Estonia? Do they have power stations there for running computers to play games? I thought it was a 3rd world country = not many gamers there. Glad to see that there are some to join in our discussions.

Anyway Protoss, if you are only here to Troll, then you have my pity. I know something must have happened to you when you were younger, and you need to make others pay now. If you ever want to talk about it, I'll listen. It might make you feel better.

Espion
19th Jun 2009, 09:09
Haha my test worked. I tried to see how many ignorant posters would reply with hate after posting that. The world is not empty of idiots yet. Thank you for participating.

:rolleyes:

Yeeeeeah, your "test" was a resounding success. A whole four people, including myself, disagreed with you and all of us asked you to provide the argument you failed to give originally.

Also, I don't think ignorant means what you think it means.

Nate
19th Jun 2009, 09:14
Hehe, he is ignorant of the meaning of ignorant!

It is unfortunate though. I would certainly have considered his argument if he had actually had one.

Hamadriyad
19th Jun 2009, 09:15
Haha my test worked. I tried to see how many ignorant posters would reply with hate after posting that. The world is not empty of idiots yet. Thank you for participating.

I agreed with you first, later I changed my mind. But I am an idiot now? What a shame!:D

Nate
19th Jun 2009, 09:19
It was almost like dealing with Clock12345 but with a better grasp of English.

ToMegaTherion
19th Jun 2009, 09:21
You know, this place would work much more pleasantly if people would express and explain their opinions without accompanying it with casual insults and/or a sneering tone of superiority.

Nate
19th Jun 2009, 09:25
True! Sometimes it is hard to be perfectly civil when someone comes at you with 'Troll Logic' and rage....but firing back doesn't really help make the world (or Thi4f) any better.

ToMegaTherion
19th Jun 2009, 09:29
Well, firing back is not necessarily a bad idea, but it ought to be done right. So if someone is being an ass and deserves a short sharp flame, take aim at him and not a broad group who might share some of his opinions, but haven't acted like asses.

fayfuya
19th Jun 2009, 13:07
Stop arguing about ****, The previous Thief games were good, so Thief 4 will be, unless you would stop suggesting stupid lame ideas the game would be excellent, you just have to stop being so lame, of course i'm not talking about all of you, but most of you just vote for stupid things in the polls.
Eidos should take the good things from TDS and the good things from T1 & T2, and if you guys wants so much Thief 4 to be like T1 & T2 so go play these games yourself, Thief 4 is gonna be a bit diffirent from the previous Thief games for sure, cause we are more advanced with the technology and we can create better things than a "magical rope arrow" or a "quick launch mission" .
We should create City HUBs, mechanical arrows, Garrett is not a mage, he's a thief.

jay pettitt
19th Jun 2009, 14:07
Wha? I thought voting for stupid things in polls is what this forum is for.

ToMegaTherion
19th Jun 2009, 14:09
I think fayfuya was just kindly demonstrating what I was complaining about.

jay pettitt
19th Jun 2009, 14:19
oh. his parody was so good I thought it was for real.

jermi
19th Jun 2009, 14:47
His parody is so good even he thinks it's for real.

On the topic: there is no battle between old and new, only a battle between good and ridiculous.

Aristofiles
19th Jun 2009, 18:17
ehh... sure we are thief fans and there aint that many of us but this is a fan forum. We have no intrest in what the mainstream audiance want. Im sure the new developers know that mutch better. All we can do is speak ouer minds and say why we liked the first games.

No one is counting on them to listen to us but atleast thay get the general feelings from players who have played all 3 games.

Also we might even have some ideas that thay think is intresting although i admit most sugestions are kinda... strange...

Nate
19th Jun 2009, 21:29
Yeah, 'strange' might be a good description (I think one guy in particular loves to come out with orignal, but strange ideas/suggstions). But I am looking at it as just tossing ideas out there for people to consider...I certainly don't get mad about it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
19th Jun 2009, 22:18
Haha my test worked. I tried to see how many ignorant posters would reply with hate after posting that. The world is not empty of idiots yet. Thank you for participating.

If your thread was just a test, then I assume you never intended to invite good discussion.
As you say it has worked, then I must also assume that the purpose of the thread has been achieved.

I don't need to comment on the 'ignorant posters' and 'idiots', as it already provides an explanation for closing this thread.