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Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 23:20
Simple query, should the arrows remain the magic disintegrating rope that they were in the first games? Or should we move to actually having a rope attached?

A magical rope is more convenient, because the arrows are recollectible, and remove all trace of being there.

A mechanical rope arrow allows us to easily tie the rope to things, and assures we never fire the rope too far for it to fall (we can stand on the end of it), but interferes with making the shot (the arrow is significantly slowed, and the rope would throw off accuracy drastically).

A magical arrow could be primed to release the rope first, allowing us to do all the things the mechanical one does, but still allow for quick and evidenceless collection.

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 23:31
If you could please refrain from adding commentary to the poll itself, you'd get more cooperative responses. :lmao:

You left me no choices but refraining or old school style.

With magic and alchemy in a FANTASY game, you have more freedom to express yourself in the game. Having it trail a rope, or connecting one end to anything tethers it to stricter rules and is also not realistic. The power to propel that arrow needs to be more than his bow could produce, and it still wouldn't bear his weight. Freedom of movement is a higher priority than imposing false reality on a fantasy element.

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 23:35
I like the idea of creating a zipline and having horizontal movement, instead of strictly vertical movement. While it is limited in terms of feasibility, it allows for maximum player movement, which I would like.

I thought these were the primary options and reasons for said options

If you want I'll delete the thread and make one with more diverse options?

DiegoFloor
19th Jun 2009, 06:49
A really dynamical rope would be incredibly fun! Swing.. slide from a side to the other.. pull things with it :)

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 08:07
Not more diverse options, just stop adding your personal opinion to the choices, hahaha. Magical, Mechanical, Both. Make it multiple choice for Horizontal and vertical movement or Vertical movement only, as well.



I don't think the rope arrows necessary for horizontal movement, and you'd have to change how you retrieve it for when the player screws up. A zipline won't work without Garrett's side being higher than the other, unless you work in hand-over-hand movement, sound, animation. Every new thing you want to use the rope for requires it's own set of programming with it's own bugs, glitches, and quirks, and once again, means a great deal of time spent making things to the detriment of the basics. But if you wanna brainstorm without limitations... The rope-climbing programming could be used for giant spider webs, fish nets, gig lines, mooring ropes, crane cables, power-lines (yes, there are power-lines in Thief, just not the kind with poles), clothes lines, tree vines, Subjective Effect's tripwires, booby-trap mines, tying up hostages, building a raft, hanging a man, tying a dog to a tree, laying down a long fuse to light to give you cover from an explosion you're about to cause.

Espion
19th Jun 2009, 09:15
I'd like to see dog tying in the game. Very few games really give you a good opportunity to tie up dogs. Especially to trees :D

I like the idea of being able to use rope arrows horizontally. Maybe hand-over-hand instead of ziplining though.

I think it's fair to say that the team will have a set amount of time to make additions to the basic mechanics. This is something that I think fits with the game well enough to be looked into... And to be honest, I'd like to see Garrett have the ability to climb objects in the environment, so long as it makes sense that he could do so. (Without the need for "special" gloves.)

DiegoFloor
19th Jun 2009, 09:33
I was working at a casual game prototype that used rope physics. Of course, keep in mind that it's nothing like Thief at all! but just to give a general idea of how much fun a more dynamical rope can be. :)

I've made these videos as a work in progress log, so they are not only showing different aspects but are also in different stages of development.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utIVUDVGLkU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-CnYr2jSoo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eehUli9B-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efM1-tzjf5A

esme
19th Jun 2009, 10:58
tie rope arrow to dog, aim rope arrow at bottom of chasm, fire, dog looks on with interest then rope goes tight, YIIIIIIKKKKKkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee................

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 18:59
Spider-Taffer, Spider-Taffer...

13LACK13ISHOP
20th Jun 2009, 12:43
How could it be mechanical. It cannot store that much rope in one arrow. Nor could it be fired.

Also zip lines would be cool. Could only work in small spaces though unless the rope goes on till it touches a surface.

esme
20th Jun 2009, 14:11
Spider-Taffer, Spider-Taffer...

OH YESSSSSS tie rope to spider shoot rope arrow up high, use spider as piƱata http://www.ttlg.com/forums/images/smilies/ebil.gif :thumb:

esme
20th Jun 2009, 14:30
How could it be mechanical. It cannot store that much rope in one arrow. Nor could it be fired.

Also zip lines would be cool. Could only work in small spaces though unless the rope goes on till it touches a surface.

modern interpretations of rope arrows like this one at http://www.saa-intl.com/crossbow.htm have a very light trailing line attached

it's not beyond the bounds of credibility to have a more heavyweight version with a light trailing line that is looped through the arrow so you can fire it into a tree have it catch and use the loop to pull a climbing rope through the arrow so you can climb the tree easily

the rope isn't stored in the arrow though its coiled on the floor by the archer

--EDIT--

found a launched climbing grapnel on the same site DOH ! 2 seconds after I posted too

http://www.saa-intl.com/climb.htm

Subjective Effect
20th Jun 2009, 14:33
What about Mechanical but can also use as a zip line?

Captain567
20th Jun 2009, 15:45
Who cares whether it's mechanical or magical? The real question is do you want to be able to create ziplines or otherwise lateral movement, no need to complicate it

CurtX
20th Jun 2009, 16:03
I prefer "mysterious", which is what all the special arrows were and how they should remain. We need no explanation of how exactly everything works. That's like the new Star Wars explaining how the force works. Not a good idea.

Flashart
20th Jun 2009, 16:12
I always assumed rope arrows were mechanical and vine arrows (slightly) magical.
I was one that initially thought of using rope arrows horizontally, but the more I think about it, the more problems I can see. You'd have a problem retrieving them if you'd tied one end. Or, I suppose you could have two arrows, one on each end of the rope, take two shots and retrieve as normal. I thought also as using them as tripwires but I think it might cause too many "pathfinding" problems for the guards AI.
I still like the idea of using a moss arrow then a vine arrow to allow the vine to "take" to a wider variety of surfaces. (I've mentioned a suggested "Airship" mission, this would be a great way to move on the outside of the craft, as you couldn't use arrows that would pierce, it'd be very tense.)

Blade_hunter
20th Jun 2009, 17:50
I don't know but we could have different "rope" arrows or ropes depending on the utility

-The standard rope arrow would work like the old games.
-A new arrow I think that could be called the link arrow, we need two of them to form a rope that connects the two arrows, where we can walk or slide on it depending how we use it, we need wooden points to place arrows.
-Also an item that could be a repel cord, thieves doesn't need always to use rope arrows

13LACK13ISHOP
20th Jun 2009, 18:40
modern interpretations of rope arrows like this one at http://www.saa-intl.com/crossbow.htm have a very light trailing line attached

it's not beyond the bounds of credibility to have a more heavyweight version with a light trailing line that is looped through the arrow so you can fire it into a tree have it catch and use the loop to pull a climbing rope through the arrow so you can climb the tree easily

the rope isn't stored in the arrow though its coiled on the floor by the archer

--EDIT--

found a launched climbing grapnel on the same site DOH ! 2 seconds after I posted too

http://www.saa-intl.com/climb.htm

Yea but it would be a bit ugly with all the rope dangling while its in the air. Not as fancy as the theif rope arrows.

Zahr Dalsk
21st Jun 2009, 01:15
I refuse to answer vague poll.

However: I'd like vine and rope to be just the same as they were in TMA.

jtr7
21st Jun 2009, 02:28
Yes, but a vine arrow requires Viktoria or someone with her magic, so something has to be changed or introduced or resurrected. Yeah, I like the vine arrows, too.


It should be noted, again, that there are limited slots for weapons key-binds, and different kinds within the same categories would mean forcing the player to choose one or the other before a mission or, Builder forbid, force the player to scroll through the weapons as with inventory items. Not very quick and easy.

Hypevosa
22nd Jun 2009, 05:10
In TMA they just had rope arrows completely replaced by vine arrows. I didn't mind it so much as they were better, but I remember after a certain level they were transformed into rope arrows... don't remember which. You could just press the rope arrow button again to toggle vine vs rope arrows.

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 05:22
Wait. What? :)

Hypevosa
22nd Jun 2009, 05:28
TMA.... sorry.

in TMA the levels had either vine or rope arrows, never both. I'm saying if you wanted to include rope and vine arrows at the same time, making vine only one use and rope multiple use but less surfaces can use it, then you could have the player just hit the 8 key (traditional rope arrow key) once to select rope arrows, and another time to select vine.

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 06:25
Yes, but the number of rope types mentioned were more than two, nad as you know, no more than one were ever available in a mission. And to choose between about four different types needs to be a single tap of a single key for those moments when the player doesn't have a second to lose.

Hypevosa
22nd Jun 2009, 06:28
I honestly can't ever recall a situation where my use of a rope arrow was high pressure enough that I couldn't double tap the 8 key >_>

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 06:38
Haven't put yourself in that situation, then. Easy to do if you intentionally gain attention and get AIs chasing you, and you want them to cluster around beneath you to take them all out with a gas arrow--not necessary, but it happens, and all for fun, plus it hones skills that increase sneaking proficiency as a side benefit. Anyway, what if you accidentally triple tap? Or if you have stacks of equipment on more than one key? Dialing up the one you want and not overshooting it will be critical for the enjoyment of gameplay. It would be similar to scrolling through a bunch of keys in the inventory, and that got old for just about everybody.

Hypevosa
22nd Jun 2009, 06:44
that's why I made it simply as a suggestion for rope/vine arrows... see, I agree that having too much equipment to cycle through makes using the cycles annoying, and you need keybinds for high pressure situations, but that's why I only make the suggestion for an item where 2 of it serve the same function. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone when I say I'd rather have some things bound to the same, easy to reach key, than have to look at my F keys to make sure I hit the correct one.... I almost NEVER use the f keys because there are too many items to be assigned, and I inevitably hit the wrong key.

1. Sword/Dagger
2. Blackjack
3. Broadheads
4. Water
5. Fire
6. Moss
7. Gas
8. Rope/Vine
9. Noisemaker
0. Portable doom laser

ok, I'm just having fun here on the last one, but you get the picture. I'd just rather not have to look at the keyboard and make sure I hit the correct F key for a vine arrow, when I actually can hit the 8 key without looking. Actually, I just noticed from normal typing hand positions, I can't even reach the F keys on this keyboard, so I'd have to move my hands and look anyways...

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 07:11
I can agree with that, and that's more what I would like to see. I still think dynamic rope arrows for vertical and some side swinging movement is a basic for the new game, and that should be working great before looking at player-placed horizontal ropes.

And hey, for that last one... even Constantine had particle beams! Okay they were special effects, not injurious.

esme
22nd Jun 2009, 11:58
Yea but it would be a bit ugly with all the rope dangling while its in the air. Not as fancy as the theif rope arrows.
true, so I'm prepared to accept a rope magically issuing from a fired rope arrow or even issuing from a mechanical arrow that tears open the fabric of the universe and pulls a rope out of a different dimension as a simplification

as long as there's a rope arrow I really don't care how it works .... unless this somehow affects the plot in a way I can't think of an example for at the mo

Direlord
22nd Jun 2009, 19:11
I agreed with flash where i thought rope arrows were mechanical and vine were magical. That makes no difference to me really.

i would like to see horizontal use as a zip line or even a tight rope kind of deal. Would be cool to have to sneak up a building then use a rope/vine arrow to zip down onto a lower building that is your actual target.

To have to slide down an arrow to a secret alcove since due to roof ceiling materials you couldn't shoot the arrow vertical and climb up.

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 19:26
Yes. I will be very surprised if the devs could work horizontal in without it looking cheesy or gimmicky. If they can, and it doesn't screw with the key-binds, then I'll be fine with it.

The nature of the rope arrows annoys people for being too magical (I don't have a problem, myself. There's way too much that is far more magical for me to have a concern. I have no intention of trying to replicate it in real life). There's too much unnatural about them, and even the TMA Intro movie made a point of showing them work mainly like they do in-game, but with the emphasis on how odd they are. Only the very tip of the arrowhead taps and splinters the wood in the ceiling. Then it jiggles and becomes rigid. Then the rope leaps out of it, while the barely-sunk arrow doesn't move at all, and it holds Garrett as he descends.

Platinumoxicity
22nd Jun 2009, 19:48
Yes. I will be very surprised if the devs could work horizontal in without it looking cheesy or gimmicky. If they can, and it doesn't screw with the key-binds, then I'll be fine with it.


OMG, I just realised... I've been pro horizontal rope movement all this time but now I realised that if you move by hanging by your legs and arms on the horizontal rope, your vision is upside-down! This will make sensitive people puke their entrails to the screen! This could mean only one thing: 3rd person mode! Maybe even forced 3rd person. :eek:

http://filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/6096a76b21c8c2223b7ea62dcd817c95.PNG

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 19:53
It would have to be hand-over-hand, legs cycling like he's on a small crappy unicycle, and although the rope should bounce, sway, and sag, that too should probably be disabled when shutting off head-bob.

Hypevosa
22nd Jun 2009, 20:50
If Garrett can do chinups, he can do hand over hand, or he can have a little handcrank device that he uses along the rope, or he can just use the hand hold of his bow for a zip line. Or we can just have the camera go upside down and risk getting people sick :D It wouldn't make me sick.

jtr7
23rd Jun 2009, 04:27
Check this out:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104828

Garrett animations that were deleted because the devs couldn't get the game mechanics working right.

TheEye
4th Jul 2009, 10:51
you know what i liked about thief - its simplicity. you hide in the dark, you have a sword and a bow, you put out torches, you use simple ROPE arrows which have a limited length of rope attached to them- a good game. and what did they introduce in tds - climbing gloves, oil flasks( i love them but still), vine arrows(TMA)- it took me forever to figure them out

jtr7
4th Jul 2009, 11:01
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Fatherwoodsie
5th Jul 2009, 01:28
i think the only time i ever used the vine arrow was in sabotage

jtr7
5th Jul 2009, 02:37
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Fatherwoodsie
5th Jul 2009, 04:08
yeah i didnt need those nearly as much as i needed the rope arrows

jtr7
5th Jul 2009, 04:16
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Fatherwoodsie
5th Jul 2009, 05:08
rope arrows are cheaper, if i can recall

jtr7
5th Jul 2009, 05:49
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xDarknessFallsx
5th Jul 2009, 07:31
I went with old school. I'm afraid that with lateral zip-lining, the game would become too easy. You'd become too mobile, just zip-lining across entire sections. The only thing I can liken it to is TDS' climbing gloves, even though it's not a good comparison. They allowed too much freedom of movement. If they worked in even more places, they would've been even more disastrous. Similarly, rope arrows with zip-line capabilities would make Garrett too mobile for the game's own good. I don't want to feel like I'm playing Spiderman or that I'm in Cirque de Soleil when playing Thief.

And I really prefer them to be magical, just because. I don't need or want everything to have a real-world explanation. It's just part of the mystique of Thief.

Hypevosa
23rd Aug 2009, 19:01
I don't see how lateral ziplining would make the game too easy unless we're saying you can do it from any angle and to any surface... most walls are stone in the thief world, meaning ziplines wouldn't be possible with rope arrows. As well, you need to have at least a little downward a slope in order to go down the zipline. There are express few situations where it would be useful, but I'm asking if it should be an option for situations like that - or if we don't even want the option there.

jtr7
23rd Aug 2009, 23:25
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Davehall380
24th Aug 2009, 14:00
Keep it simple - just have rope arrows in the good old fashioned sense of the word. Fire into the ceiling, and gravity takes care of the rest. Im sure a case can be made for the lack of vine arrows (they were from Viktoria as I remember). As for zip-linning, its a nice idea but how would Garrett actually do this quickly? Tie one end of the rope to a balcony railing, the other to an arrow, load the arrow and shoot at the wooden wall some feet below? Talk about a specialist situation! Lol im not criticising that much, its a good idea, but should the emphasis be on further specialisation of weaponry as opposed to conservative preservation. 'If it aint broke, dont fix it' comes to mind (look what the f***ing Climbing Gloves did for the game)

Hypevosa
24th Aug 2009, 16:26
I generally agree with if it aint broke don't fix it, but this isn't addressing that. Rope arrows are perfect, and the way they were used for vertical travel was perfect. I'm suggesting a NEW idea, not trying to change an old one. It would be an added mechanic not an alteration. As I said, it would probably seldom be useful, but it would be cool, and fun when it was. Should they bother adding this new movement method? it would appear people would enjoy it judging by the poll so far.

esme
24th Aug 2009, 16:37
basically the poll is asking two different things

do we want mechanical or magical rope arrows - I don't really mind as long as we have them

do we want traditional vertical climb rope arrows or do we want to be able to make zip lines - zip lines would be a nice extra but not essential for me as long as we have rope arrows to climb with

so I've voted for the third option

Secondary
24th Aug 2009, 21:24
If by Magical you mean it operates with the use of Garrets new Glyph powers (one true keeper), then fine. but if its something you can buy than it should be mechanical.

even though water,gas,fire, and moss arrows arent mechanical i wouldnt call them magickal either, those crystals just seem to grow natural in deposits so it would seem that they are a natrual phenomenon in the Thief universe

if they are "vine" arrows that would be something magickal, might bring some balance to Garrets arsenal, he'd havean eye made by hammerites and maybe arrows or a bow made by pagans






and this isnt really part of the thread but they shouldnt be restricted to vertical movement, you should be able to make ziplines, or rappel down buildings, or maybe fire them low across a path to trip enemies