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Inbred Pageboy
18th Jun 2009, 04:13
Aside from the discussions about guard routes deviating and better AI, after some thought it came across to me that fitting to the game would be corrupt guards.
For e.g. - if one caught you on the street or wherever, instead of trying to kill/arrest they would bribe/tax the player instead with a wide range of cost depending on your location. Maybe more if you get caught on the rooftops, and not limited to money alone.
All depending on T4 and how money is distributed and AI. Also inkeeping with a non-violent outcome.
Just another idea to discuss.

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 04:19
AIs of any faction could be a source of bribery, blackmail, information, etc., and have been but only in the fiction. It's just not something the player has had a chance to set up for him/herself, and the player has only reaped the benefits of it after it happened between missions, or before the game.

Inbred Pageboy
18th Jun 2009, 04:28
AIs of any faction could be a source of bribery, blackmail, information, etc., and have been but only in the fiction.

Yes, of course, I agree. Don't want to sound narrow minded in that respect.

Might be able to impliment it as a player setting also.

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 04:35
No worries. :)

Hmm... An interactivity toggle?

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 05:32
The question is would garrett really part with gold, or just run away/flashbomb the guy.... I think garrett's not parting with that gold personally

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 05:35
He bought tips and information all the time, we just weren't controlling him when he did. :)

Nate
18th Jun 2009, 06:57
It should go beyond just 'tips' though. I would like to see the ability to buy off guards/workers so that they call 'a sick day', or leave a door unlocked, or leave loot out unsecured, or leave torches unlit.

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 07:46
Right, but Garrett should not approach these people himself, and there's always the chance of betrayal. Certainly there's a price on his head, and any character would heave to believe it's more profitable and worth the risk. It could simply be for the thrill of it, too, but I'd like to see a smarter Garrett who never works directly with cops. Disgruntled guards and servants, sure. Damp and cold and always potato, potato, potato.

huzi73
18th Jun 2009, 08:48
Right, but Garrett should not approach these people himself, and there's always the chance of betrayal.I'd like to see a smarter Garrett who never works directly with cops. Disgruntled guards and servants, sure.

Great idea!!! Thats where the girl from TDS comes in!! She could be Garretts err... representative:nut:

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 08:51
Make her a shoe-shine girl / informant.

Hamadriyad
18th Jun 2009, 09:16
Great idea!!! Thats where the girl from TDS comes in!! She could be Garretts err... representative:nut:

Maybe she sould be villian:)

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 09:43
Viki's wood-nymph daughter in her human form! Dyan & Larkspur raised her until she was ready to go woo Garrett to follow him to the ultimate Keeper secret only he can unlock, because both Viki and Dyan had visions about something that would restore what was lost, and they thought it could bring their Woodsie Lord back and maybe The Lady of the Green, too.

esme
18th Jun 2009, 10:12
the only problem I see is that it involves Garrett getting caught

Garretts whole reason for existing in Thief is to avoid detection and thereby to avoid capture

any guard AI approaching me doesn't really have time to get into their spiel and say something like "I'll let you go if you give me money" because as soon as they say "OI" or "Come here you" I'm either doing a runner or they're shortly to be unconscious

Fire_Is_Born
18th Jun 2009, 10:43
and not limited to money alone.

Jeez, how corrupt are they? What else were you thinking of bribing them with? ;)

Inbred Pageboy
18th Jun 2009, 10:43
the only problem I see is that it involves Garrett getting caught

Well as i see it, in all the series, generally if you get caught you have 2 options:

1 - Run away and hide (Good ai would just eventually find you as the awareness would be on full, maybe bringing in other ai).
2 - Fight - not what was originally intended for the series but its a choice the player needs/has.

In DS, if you got caught, City watch put you in prison at a certain stage which you duly escaped from. Partly a scripted scene and part story setting.

Inbred Pageboy
18th Jun 2009, 10:52
Jeez, how corrupt are they? What else were you thinking of bribing them with? ;)

You could bribe them with anything in your inventory. I'm sure they know most of the fences to flog it to. ;)

fraten
18th Jun 2009, 14:43
This is a good idea, but I believe this would be hard to implement into the game. You see, the guard catches you and then he has to stand by until the player has decided what to do. A menu would pop up and the player klicks whatever button he wants.
I think this would break immersion.

Belboz
18th Jun 2009, 14:47
yes, but afterward garrett would just steal the money back from the guard, or whack him over the head and leave him someplace weird.

Trouble is that corrupt guards would be working for the thieves guild, and the lords that run the thieves guild, and they hate garrett just as much as the city guard do.

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 17:33
This's sounding too GTA to me.

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 21:57
see it's one thing to pay for information, but I just don't see Garrett EVER handing over gold to a single guard so that the guard will go back to his patrols. Plus, what guard is going to just let him go when he probably has a bounty on his head around 50000 times what the guy makes per hour... seriously?

Inbred Pageboy
18th Jun 2009, 22:33
he probably has a bounty on his head around 50000 times what the guy makes per hour

I've never heard/seen any bounty being put on his head ingame.


garrett would just steal the money back from the guard, or whack him over the head and leave him someplace weird.

That can be easily sorted out.


. A menu would pop up and the player klicks whatever button he wants.
I think this would break immersion.

Thats only one way of handling the situation. Who's to say you get a choice!

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 22:44
The posters in TDS say there's a reward for getting him, and I don't see how there wouldn't be one anyways.

Inbred Pageboy
18th Jun 2009, 22:54
There maybe a few who'd turn him in but there would still be some who couldn't give 2 hoots about it, apart from a quick profit without the hassle and maybe not getting the reward anyway.

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 23:00
I've never heard/seen any bounty being put on his head ingame.



That can be easily sorted out.



Thats only one way of handling the situation. Who's to say you get a choice!

Quince & Jacow probably went after him for the usual pay, either out of fear of Ramirez and losing their jobs, or gladly.

g5_crime_wanted1: "Hey! You know there's a reward for you? I'm gonna be famous!"
g4_crime_wanted1: "I'm gonna get me a reward for you!"
s3_crime_wanted1: "I saw him on that poster!"
s3_crime_wanted2: "There's a reward for him!"

Not really a "bounty", but I think Thief could use a bounty hunter. Too many people have lost everything that know his name and face and the near extent of his crimes.

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 23:05
There maybe a few who'd turn him in but there would still be some who couldn't give 2 hoots about it, apart from a quick profit without the hassle and maybe not getting the reward anyway.

I think if we're talking about guards, they'd all give 2 hoots about it.. other criminals just know too well his abilities for getting out of sticky situations are unmatched and it is nowhere near worth the effort.

Inbred Pageboy
18th Jun 2009, 23:15
I think if we're talking about guards, they'd all give 2 hoots about it..

Not all guards will as some may have issues with their employer (i'm sure Benny does quite often ;) )

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 23:23
they give a hoot because they can retire if they collect the reward on Garrett, I think that's a universal want in a guard's line of work. And if they are glory hogs, they're even more interested for the bragging rights.

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 23:25
Benny could get his nice warm clothes, and eat spider-steak 'til the burricks come home!

citywolfdreams
18th Jun 2009, 23:35
the only problem I see is that it involves Garrett getting caught

Garretts whole reason for existing in Thief is to avoid detection and thereby to avoid capture

any guard AI approaching me doesn't really have time to get into their spiel and say something like "I'll let you go if you give me money" because as soon as they say "OI" or "Come here you" I'm either doing a runner or they're shortly to be unconscious

I agree with this. I like the idea of bribing guards, but I just don't like the implemented that this thread initially suggested. And yeah, it doesn't make sense for Garrett to approach them directly. He's just not that stupid.

I think the best way to implement it (if it's done at all) would be in the pre-mission buying screen. Buy weapons, arrows, items, tips, or pay to have the side door left unlocked, or a certain patrol route left empty.

Inbred Pageboy
18th Jun 2009, 23:35
if they collect the reward on Garrett, I think that's a universal want in a guard's line of work.

I can forsee some employers not paying up for a few reasons. Even City Watch bosses - like Sheriff Truart who was seriously corrupt.

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 23:40
Truart isn't in power anymore, Morgan is (I think that was her name) and she's a non-corrupt official.

Employers aren't paying the reward, the city watch is. The person would get enough renown as well for doing so, that shafting them would cause a severe backlash from the community... it wouldn't be worth the trouble it would cause to not actually pay the reward.

Inbred Pageboy
18th Jun 2009, 23:47
I like the idea of bribing guards, but I just don't like the implemented that this thread initially suggested. And yeah, it doesn't make sense for Garrett to approach them directly.

I never suggestet any kind of implementation or Garret approaching the briber (if thats what you mean) Its meant as more of a instant tax as oppose to fighting/running away if you get caught not Garret bribing guards etc..

Which could be implemented very quickly without ruining immersion.

jtr7
18th Jun 2009, 23:49
We don't know who's Sheriff now. Lt. Mosley was a choice, but it would take continued corruption for her to get the job, since she committed conspiracy to a murder, even though she's fairly liked.

Hypevosa
18th Jun 2009, 23:51
Mosley took the violent, paladinlike approach to removing truart from power. She's probably a less corruptible force than he was.

Inbred Pageboy
19th Jun 2009, 00:00
She's probably a less corruptible force than he was.

Well, having been an accessory to murder i'd say thats about as corrupt as it gets. Money is no comparison. I just get the feeling after the murder she would of milked it for as long as she could.

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 00:05
Of course Mosley's less corrupt. I said she's liked. Her cause was noble but her methods were not. She would have to hide the facts of her culpability, or convince the courts she did the right thing and reduce her punishment, or all the City Watch, nobles, and servants at the Truart Estate would have to conspire for her to hide the facts of the investigation. I like Mosley, but I'm saying she had a lot going against her to get the job. I don't know how often the Sheriffs were elected, since we were never told the terms of office. Maybe she could serve her time in prison, be treated well considering, be a trustee, and be asked to run for Sherrif. This all depends on how much The City knew about Truart's corruption, and if it could be proven that Karras and he conspired against The City. We don't know what Garrett did with the scandalous recording, and I wonder if he would help Mosley at all.

Hypevosa
19th Jun 2009, 01:28
Well, having been an accessory to murder i'd say thats about as corrupt as it gets. Money is no comparison. I just get the feeling after the murder she would of milked it for as long as she could.

Paladins are as incorruptible as they come, and they're violent.

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/6/16/633492349101874112-paladins.jpg

She saw a man who was destroying what the city watch stood for, and removed said man. I have no issue with it personally. (then again, I play a paladin in DnD... *detects evil on sheriff truart, then proceeds to chop him in half*)

Actually she'd be on the fence because she wasn't lawful about her righteousness... she'd probably be considered neutral or chaotic good instead.

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 01:38
Regardless, without corruption she'd not get the job.

Hypevosa
19th Jun 2009, 01:59
I never got the impression it was HARD to get into the city watch... especially given that they probably have a rather high mortality/coma rate.

Inbred Pageboy
19th Jun 2009, 02:04
I never got the impression it was HARD to get into the city watch... especially given that they probably have a rather high mortality/coma rate.

...along with all these damn bribes and backdoor deals :lol:

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 02:05
I didn't say it was hard. In fact, I was being very generous, considering the crime she committed. It would be corruption that got her the job without a trial. It would be entirely unlawful for anyone who knew of her crime to ignore it.

During Truart's time, they were hiring Downwinders! Hahaha! But the better people on the force didn't like that. The corruption included a lot of toying with the criminals, rather than locking them up. We were given the impression that the Baron didn't know what's going on, but now he's back.

Inbred Pageboy
19th Jun 2009, 02:20
I think that was a given as the Baron was away for some reason (i cannot remember). Truart wanted rid of the Pagans ( or at least a serious cutback) which is why Truart started hiring the DW. The rest (or some) of the force started to question Truart and maybe more trust towards Mosely as a result i think.

So as of the end of TDS the CW was getting in a mess like the Keepers.

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 02:35
The Baron was away at war with Blackbrook for T1/G/2, and Truart wasn't working under the Baron's authority as he was supposed to. Karras was backing Truart and it was Karras who pushed the genocidal agenda of the Mechanists and City Watch from behind-the-scenes, while Truart and "his New Age" were seen by some as heroic for it, while others saw through it, though not clearly. He hired Truart to kill Garrett. Truart was taking money to round up the street-people, and Karras gave him cash (10000 per street-person for the Servant project, so we hear during Eavesdropping), as well as outfitted his estate and Shoalsgate. It wasn't out of desperation that Downwinders were being hired, it was hypocrisy, corruption, power, and a false sens of control.

esme
19th Jun 2009, 11:21
the only problem I see is that it involves Garrett getting caught
Well as i see it, in all the series, generally if you get caught you have 2 options:

1 - Run away and hide (Good ai would just eventually find you as the awareness would be on full, maybe bringing in other ai).
2 - Fight - not what was originally intended for the series but its a choice the player needs/has.

In DS, if you got caught, City watch put you in prison at a certain stage which you duly escaped from. Partly a scripted scene and part story setting.yep those are pretty much the options I said except I meant KO the guard rather than out and out brawl with them, adding an opportunity for the guard to be bribed is going to be tricky and in my opinion not worth the effort

and in DS I played all the way through and finished the game without even knowing there was a prison escape mission, it was only later when I went on ttlg I found you needed to jump in the water to get to it, I had found that water was deadly why the hell would I voluntarily jump in it without knowing it would lead to a mission, so I reloaded a savegame and drowned myself just to get to that mission

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 18:36
You know you can just get "killed" in a fight with the City Watch, too, and end up there?

Inbred Pageboy
19th Jun 2009, 21:50
adding an opportunity for the guard to be bribed is going to be tricky

Maybe I should of edited my first post as I didn't really mean bribes as such. As bribes have previously been dealt with in mission briefings.
What I mean is that if you get caught (if the guard is close enough) then he may TAX you instead.
This doesn't have to mean you getting a choice in what that may be. That would rule out tricky/complicated and/or immersion breaking, as this can be implemented within a few seconds.
Anything in your inventory can be sold/pawned for cash so you could end up losing an amount of tools you might consider irreplaceable like water arrows. It represents a twist which is inkeeping with the Thief games.

esme
20th Jun 2009, 14:54
You know you can just get "killed" in a fight with the City Watch, too, and end up there?

something else I avoided strenuously, so no I didn't know that, thanks for the info

I mean why put an entire level in the game that you only see if you screw up ?

as a reward for screwing up perhaps ? to encourage you to screw up again ? so much for being master of your art

TheEye
4th Jul 2009, 11:16
you mean to tell me that i've finished busting my ass in some mission and i'm just gonna give them money????!! garret is a thief, not a whiner - he'll kill the guards and then we'll see if they'll want bribes!

jtr7
4th Jul 2009, 11:33
...........................

namron
4th Jul 2009, 12:09
The question is would garrett really part with gold, or just run away/flashbomb the guy.... I think garrett's not parting with that gold personally

that is true he woudlent want to part with his gold so u should be abel to pickpoket them to get it back like you bribe them and when they walk of sneek up and take your gold back

jtr7
4th Jul 2009, 12:18
...........................

esme
4th Jul 2009, 12:22
when I pick up something shiny I have a marked aversion to losing it if there is any alternative

one FM had a fire demon protecting a key, if you gave it a ruby it would give you the key, but if you drowned it in water arrows you could keep the ruby and still have the key even though the ruby had no other value in game, two guesses which I did

Fatherwoodsie
4th Jul 2009, 20:36
Aside from the discussions about guard routes deviating and better AI, after some thought it came across to me that fitting to the game would be corrupt guards.
For e.g. - if one caught you on the street or wherever, instead of trying to kill/arrest they would bribe/tax the player instead with a wide range of cost depending on your location. Maybe more if you get caught on the rooftops, and not limited to money alone.
All depending on T4 and how money is distributed and AI. Also inkeeping with a non-violent outcome.
Just another idea to discuss.

that sounds too much like oblivion though

gryphos
9th Jul 2009, 20:39
>>that sounds too much like oblivion though

I think bribes are perfectly within the spirit of the game, but as part of the up front planning. In the instances where Garrett was caught in a setup before (like that cutscene in the tavern) he made a run for it, as I believe do all players. The only exception is the one prison escape in T3. I'd say that the ability to take a more active role in the planning setup is the sort of idea that does not add any super powers to Garrett but does enhance the heist-y gameplay in a way that resorces allow now. I think that this was sort of the idea with tips in the loadouts of the first two games, but ones that I quickly learned and then re-loaded to spend my money on other equipment. They didn't really change the gameplay. However, a veriety of bribes or paid services at loadout would significantly change gameplay if offered in the loadout while you look over your map.