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Helgeran
16th Jun 2009, 07:52
Seriously. Night vision, high speed, sense of smell and worst of all: panting and barking. Huge rotweiler type watchdogs could even make for a horror element. Also you could put an arrow in them without feeling sorry.

Pieter888
16th Jun 2009, 08:04
Good idea!

Let's say dogs will start in a sleep-mode. you can sneak past them. but not touch them.
When you make some noise (or by some other event) and they wake up. You have to watch out, they can smell you, when your close enough, you can't hide in shadows from them. and when they find you they start barking to alert nearby guards.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 08:07
Night vision=no go You can't do that to people... it would just be cruel. Sense of smell could lead the dogs to you if you don't dip in water or give them something better to sniff after like meat, and if they touch you with their nose they'd know you're there... no night vision.

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 08:12
Quadrupeds are something the Thief teams have not been able to implement before. This should be rectified by now. There would have to be lots of climbable areas and means of escape from the dogs, the owners, and other AI in the area. Occasionally, lights should come on too, in nearby buildings. There should be deer legs to toss them and make friends if we revisit the area. A noisemaker should send them off before they know you are there, but they should not stay away as the humans do.

DarthEnder
16th Jun 2009, 08:40
I say no on the Night Vision also.

But yeah, tracking by scent definitely. Garrett should always leave a scent trail, but water and moss arrows should both cover his tracks.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 08:44
Maybe dog's ability to track scent could be disabled by shooting a water arrow in their nose :D having a nose full of water is SO ANNOYING.

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 09:12
If we're gonna have a lot of dogs, then I'd like to see or hear puppies (angry protective mother), territorial males, and an old dog that can barely "woof!" or walk. A rabid dog would be freaky. An overly-friendly dog would be so out of place and I'll bet people will shoot it before finding out it's friendly (unless it's yapping wit excitement and then there's a problem), kinda like all the people who blackjacked or killed Raoul before realizing he's harmless and helpful.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 09:33
Who's Raol?

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 09:37
Played Song of the Caverns in Thief Gold?

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 10:27
yeah I played through thief gold (remind me about song of the caverns though)

esme
16th Jun 2009, 11:40
rich landed gentry preferred peacocks loose in the grounds as they make a god awful racket when roused and they don't rip the legs off visitors and children so it's safe for them to wander the grounds, plus they are nice to look at

the dogs are then brought by servants on leads and if necessary they are loosed on the trespassers once children and visitors are safe

Flashart
16th Jun 2009, 17:41
I mentioned in another thread that Pagans could use "tethered" animals as a sort of "camera" warning system, so you could use almost any animal that makes a noise.

Captain567
16th Jun 2009, 17:47
Ugh, I'd hate leaving a scent trail and sneaking by dogs.

Maybe I'm biased because I have a phobia of them... but still. It would be REALLY frustrating, to the point of not being fun, even.

jermi
16th Jun 2009, 18:59
Also you could put an arrow in them without feeling sorry.Could you?

fayfuya
16th Jun 2009, 19:03
Dogs is a great idea, great indea indeed...

lefty
16th Jun 2009, 22:31
if dogs were implemented, they wouldn't be able to be too realistic, otherwise you could be across the street and the dog would be able to smell you and start barking. Maybe if guards didn't investigate as soon as a dog barks, but if it keeps yapping on and off, they'd get suspicious. Like three strikes, though probably more.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 23:23
the dog has no reason to smell you out when you could just be a normal person... after something has alerted the dog that you're out of place (like pulling any weapon while it sees you, or entering a place you aren't supposed to be while it sees you) then it could track you by scent. before then it shouldn't react to the player... allow the player to be the one to screw themselves over.

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 04:12
Who is Raoul? Go to the 3:25 mark to hear another Stephen Russell character:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkVOoxfKMBE


Man, just the sound of a dog that starts barking furiously at full volume without warning, while it presses its slobbering face against the door, the glass, the fence, is truly a shock.

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 04:22
THAT GUY. I knocked him out afterwords... but I let him help me first.

jay pettitt
17th Jun 2009, 11:33
Quadrupeds are something the Thief teams have not been able to implement before. This should be rectified by now.

Convincing AI behaviour is much less to do with technology and much more to do with psychology and player's readiness to project lifelike attributes onto AI. Until Eidos release a patch for your brain, canine AI won't be as successful as human AI or creatures with human attributes.

lefty
17th Jun 2009, 16:43
the dog has no reason to smell you out when you could just be a normal person... after something has alerted the dog that you're out of place (like pulling any weapon while it sees you, or entering a place you aren't supposed to be while it sees you) then it could track you by scent. before then it shouldn't react to the player... allow the player to be the one to screw themselves over.

I was walking this morning and a dog in a house across the street went up to the window and started barking at me. Depending on the personality of the dog, they will bark at anything they don't recognize as part of the household they live in. That's why a couple barks from a guarddog might not make a guard suspicious, but if it's been barking for an hour then it's time to start looking around, because what's the point of having the dogs if you don't listen to them.

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 17:22
Convincing AI behaviour is much less to do with technology and much more to do with psychology and player's readiness to project lifelike attributes onto AI. Until Eidos release a patch for your brain, canine AI won't be as successful as human AI or creatures with human attributes.

Separate issue from the fact they couldn't MAKE the quadrupeds or articulated AI work at all and had to drop them.

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 19:41
I was walking this morning and a dog in a house across the street went up to the window and started barking at me. Depending on the personality of the dog, they will bark at anything they don't recognize as part of the household they live in. That's why a couple barks from a guarddog might not make a guard suspicious, but if it's been barking for an hour then it's time to start looking around, because what's the point of having the dogs if you don't listen to them.

I'm not trying to make the dogs real... My last words summed it up, you need to let the player screw themselves over - don't make dogs react until the player does something stupid, or else you're just creating an extreme annoyance and you'll just piss people off. If the player pulls a weapon that the dog can see, or enters an area they're not supposed to be in that the dog can see/hear, then let it go berserk.

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 19:46
Right. The pressure is on the player to be stealthy. After learning the mission maps, a gas arrow would be the cheap way to remove the threat.

13LACK13ISHOP
18th Jun 2009, 19:51
The dogs would make an intereting change in gameplay. Using food to distract them. Running away from them and have the owners get annoyed at them. Better vision in the dark but not so it is overpowered. A good sense of smell and using water to douse yourself so you dont smell as much.

Myth
23rd Jun 2009, 03:53
I wasn't sure weather dogs can see at night nor not (I know cats can). I googled the answer and http://ask.yahoo.com/20021209.html yes apparently they can, and are pretty good at it as well. Also, one can't outrun a healthy adult dog (not even Garrett).

Also their awareness and keen senses would indeed pose trouble. Most guard dogs nowadays are trained not to take food from strangers (so they can't be poisoned), and will bark and attack and generally be a pain in the butt to any aspiring thief.

Garrett, spending an expensive gas arrow on a dog? Man that would make him cranky.. Still, dogs have very keen hearing. So keen, in fact, that a noismaker arrow would drive them away in an instant, especially if the nosimaker emits ultra sound that can't be heard by the human ear (like a dog whistle. A really loud one)

jtr7
23rd Jun 2009, 04:08
I'd put the dog out with a gas arrow. It's effectively a neighborhood alarm. That is, if I can't toss it a deer leg and make friends. You don't use a noisemaker, because you don't want the barking.

massimilianogoi
24th Jun 2009, 03:37
Seriously. Night vision, high speed, sense of smell and worst of all: panting and barking. Huge rotweiler type watchdogs could even make for a horror element. Also you could put an arrow in them without feeling sorry.

BHWAHAAHAH :lol: poor beasts!! I would shoot them as I would do with any other taffers human, if they're attacking me. And I would feel sorry for them. I prefer ghosting indeed, that's the true game.

Belboz
24th Jun 2009, 10:52
You'll have to add gloves of garlic and poisoned meat to the shop then, or the thief could half-inch it from some other shop, or that strange looking square bread in tds, the stuff you could bounce if you hit it right.

So these watchdogs, they be like guard dogs by any chance. Garrett could wee on them from a great height, that will stop them from smelling anything but rancid wee.

So if there were 2 dogs, then garrett could wee on one of them, then the other dog would think that garrett smelt like the dog that had been weed on, and then could get past the dog he hadn't weed on.

PJMaybe
24th Jun 2009, 18:28
Maybe a phial of poison could be bought and used with meat found in the kitchen to kill a dog silently. Otherwise the non-poisoned meat could be used only act as a temporary distraction.

edit: oops just seen Belboz's post above about the poison too.

massimilianogoi
24th Jun 2009, 18:56
Nooooooooooooooo :lol: poor beasts!

Myth
26th Jun 2009, 03:26
Let me repeat myself - guard dogs are trained to not eat food from strangers. The dog would literally stare at the raw stake you throw it's way, and not take a bite. I've seen this myself.

Hypevosa
26th Jun 2009, 04:39
There's a difference between guard dogs and house pets. Let us assume there's both. The nice golden lab will eat your steak gladly, while the rottweiler will only be satiated by YOUR flesh.

maddermadcat
26th Jun 2009, 04:49
I think dogs aren't weird enough for the City.

Like the ideas in this thread, though.

jtr7
26th Jun 2009, 05:27
Pet CobraBeasts?

Secondary
1st Sep 2009, 01:57
great idea, if you want a challenge, try sneaking past a dog. great idea.

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 11:46
Servants have dogs. The nobility have BURRICKS! (I am being very generous with my description of Ramirez here)

13LACK13ISHOP
1st Sep 2009, 13:33
Dogs have better night vision than humans but they are not that good(they cannot see in pitch black). You could still sneak past a dog in the shadows. Dogs night vision stems from the fact they see silhouettes very well. Garret crouched with a cloak would be very hard to recognise with a dog. They recognise foes by their silhouettes not there colour becouse they are inclined to hunt in dusk where it is to dark to see the foe but you can see their silhouettes. So if you were to camoflage your silhouette you would be almost invisible to a dog(if you are in darkness silly).Garret takes measures to camoflage his sillhouette from humans(cloak) as well so it will give better defense against dogs eyesight. Smell can easily be dealt with. http://www.atafa.com/sports/products/Ghillie-Suit-Ghost-Human-Scent-Neutralizer-219370.html See the description.

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 14:26
Hmm, do this mean that Garrett is now going to have to carry around 'dog spray' in his backpack next to his holy water and healing potions? If dogs are included, will they respond to a swift bop across the bonce?

13LACK13ISHOP
1st Sep 2009, 14:38
Hmm, do this mean that Garrett is now going to have to carry around 'dog spray' in his backpack next to his holy water and healing potions? If dogs are included, will they respond to a swift bop across the bonce?

Hmm. We would have to stand right behind them and lean forward because of the length the dog. Unless we are behind it and stood to the left or right or it we could get it if it was facing the front. As for the dog spray maybe or maybe not. Depends on how it is implemented. Garret could apply it between missions for gold. We could carry it. The ghost scent stuff lasts longer than a full day but this depends on game balance and fun.

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 14:45
I wouldnt mind seeing this idea implemented if it added utlity to the game. Get it wrong, and dogs would become very annoying, and would mean that the player would be forced to 'deal with them' quickly before proceeding. Sneaking around the shadows and then having a dog start barking might mean an immediate alert spike. However, the guards might just kick the dog and tell it to shut up. Maybe just one or two would be quite fun.

In the past, the game used 'watchers' as a security system (even present in Cragscleft Prison), and complex alarm systems are used throughout mansions/homes as deterents for Thieves. Guards are already fairly responsive to intruders (they know each other after all). A dog might become scared by another guard in the distance that it didn't recognise.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
1st Sep 2009, 14:55
Could also lead to some easy ways to distract dogs and leave scent trails to keep them and their guard handlers occupied for a long time outside while you sneak around inside the house.

PlumsieTaker
1st Sep 2009, 15:00
Could also lead to some easy ways to distract dogs and leave scent trails to keep them and their guard handlers occupied for a long time outside while you sneak around inside the house.

Here's one for you arrow inventing aficionados: Sausage Arrows, fire a long chain of sausage links to distract the dogs.

Or instead of flashbombs, you have biscuit bombs, which explode dog biscuits.


Disclaimer: That was obviously a joke, and in no way to be taken seriously.

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 15:19
Here's one for you arrow inventing aficionados: Sausage Arrows, fire a long chain of sausage links to distract the dogs.

Or instead of flashbombs, you have biscuit bombs, which explode dog biscuits.


Disclaimer: That was obviously a joke, and in no way to be taken seriously.

Heres one. Instead of noisemaker arrows, how about cat arrows? They sit in the corner meowing.

Secondary
1st Sep 2009, 17:10
in order to avoid scent tracking, Garret might in some cases stick to swimming or wading in deepr water. this might be a good niche to inlcude the swim feature that people are talking about.

of course theres not alot of deep water inside a castle or a cathedral, so there would ahve to be other ways.

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 19:42
I like the idea about using water to mask your scent. However, maybe we are looking to much into the idea of scent. This seems to be one aspect of the game that hasn't existed before (Constantines rat-men sniffed but this was just a sound effect). Maybe it should be simplified, so that the dogs act like there sniffing but in reality are not? This could easily be simulated by having the dogs search like guards, but with the animation of sniffing the air and following there noses along the floor. That way the player doesnt need to worry about smell (since this sense cannot be simulated like vision and hearing), and the dogs seem realistic (adding to immersion)

Helgeran
1st Sep 2009, 21:02
Convincing AI behaviour is much less to do with technology and much more to do with psychology and player's readiness to project lifelike attributes onto AI. Until Eidos release a patch for your brain, canine AI won't be as successful as human AI or creatures with human attributes.
This is why Half-life is considered to have great AI but Half-life 2 has meh AI. Human soldiers in HL1 just around like crazy, yell commands and insults and just never let you rest by flushing you out with a hail of grenades and flanking you, Combine soldiers just bum rush. Headcrabs behaved like the simple parasites they were and sound dogs really mimiced cowardly dogs well.

Helgeran
1st Sep 2009, 21:08
I wasn't sure weather dogs can see at night nor not (I know cats can). I googled the answer and http://ask.yahoo.com/20021209.html yes apparently they can, and are pretty good at it as well. Also, one can't outrun a healthy adult dog (not even Garrett).

Also their awareness and keen senses would indeed pose trouble. Most guard dogs nowadays are trained not to take food from strangers (so they can't be poisoned), and will bark and attack and generally be a pain in the butt to any aspiring thief.

Garrett, spending an expensive gas arrow on a dog? Man that would make him cranky.. Still, dogs have very keen hearing. So keen, in fact, that a noismaker arrow would drive them away in an instant, especially if the nosimaker emits ultra sound that can't be heard by the human ear (like a dog whistle. A really loud one)
That would be a great little thing that would make them very lifelike.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
2nd Sep 2009, 02:23
If you're going to implement dogs, you have to implement scent. It's the sense that they rely on most and to not include it is unrealistic and also removing another dimension of detection that the player has to be aware of and actively be conscious of.

I can see why some folk would find it irritating, intimidating and out of place to include dogs in The City scape and I believe that they should not be a regular occurrence. Their presence though, or else of some sort of creature that is used in a similar manner, could be scripted carefully into some unexpected situations that could cause some nerve racking tension and force the player to really think on their feet.

I wouldn't like to see killing the mutts to be the best option to evade them either. Creatively giving the player options to avoid them without violence would be far more entertaining. Someone has said that dogs won't take food from strangers, but it's giving the player oppurtunities like these that could make for a more interesting stealth experience, rather than just the realistic approach of just straight out killing the sentry dogs.

If a dog is killed, the guards should notice that its presence has been removed. In Splinter Cell, AI interaction between hound and man meant that killing a dog straight off the bat was easy and completely removed the threat, even if the dog was straight behind a guard. IMO, a dog and guard should be linked (as if they had been patrolling the premises regularly for quite some time together) and the accompanying guard should be always conscious of their four legged partner.

But again, I don't think dogs are mysterious or interesting enough for the Thief Universe. I'm sure the art directors and supporting team could come up with something far more mind tickling than Dobermans or Rottweilers...

Davehall380
2nd Sep 2009, 10:03
If you're going to implement dogs, you have to implement scent. It's the sense that they rely on most and to not include it is unrealistic and also removing another dimension of detection that the player has to be aware of and actively be conscious of.

I can see why some folk would find it irritating, intimidating and out of place to include dogs in The City scape and I believe that they should not be a regular occurrence. Their presence though, or else of some sort of creature that is used in a similar manner, could be scripted carefully into some unexpected situations that could cause some nerve racking tension and force the player to really think on their feet.

I wouldn't like to see killing the mutts to be the best option to evade them either. Creatively giving the player options to avoid them without violence would be far more entertaining. Someone has said that dogs won't take food from strangers, but it's giving the player oppurtunities like these that could make for a more interesting stealth experience, rather than just the realistic approach of just straight out killing the sentry dogs.

If a dog is killed, the guards should notice that its presence has been removed. In Splinter Cell, AI interaction between hound and man meant that killing a dog straight off the bat was easy and completely removed the threat, even if the dog was straight behind a guard. IMO, a dog and guard should be linked (as if they had been patrolling the premises regularly for quite some time together) and the accompanying guard should be always conscious of their four legged partner.

But again, I don't think dogs are mysterious or interesting enough for the Thief Universe. I'm sure the art directors and supporting team could come up with something far more mind tickling than Dobermans or Rottweilers...

The main problem with having dogs is that they dont think like Humans. Human AI's firstly provide vocal clues were are essential in Thief, because it lets the player know at what level of alert the guards are at. The introduction of dogs complicates matters, firstly because they are less likely to have self-doubt, and secondly because are more attune to their enviroment than humans. Knock over a vase in the dark and the dog is more likely to raise all hell than a tired, grumpy guard.

Adding scent to the game is adding another level of complication - not neccesarily a bad thing, but its something that would have to be masked most likely from the suggestions here by something that you buy. I cant think of any time (please correct me if im wrong :nut:) where the player needed to buy something to get around a guard. Sneaking is based on light and sound. Scent is something that ultimatley GArrett has no control over and would have to address this with an item. This IMO would become very tedious.

Yaphy
2nd Sep 2009, 19:07
How could the dog know wich scent is Garretts? Dont they need something to sniff on first that has Garretts scent on it first?

So if the dog attacks you, it knows your scent and can start to track you if it lost you. But if it just heard a noise, it would just go on the sound.

jtr7
2nd Sep 2009, 23:53
They don't need to know a scent ahead of time. They only need to smell a new and unfamiliar scent, which they can do from hundreds of feet away, but exponentially more if they can get a wet muzzle right up against the source. They also recognize familiar sounds and react to new ones.

theBlackman
2nd Sep 2009, 23:56
Remember "Rowena's Curse". The little old ladies pet burrick reacted when people walked by. :)

CompendiumOf_Reproach
18th Jun 2011, 06:06
Old thread :P

But I will still add that I would like dogs, but not guard dogs. I don't think that in those times there were trained dogs to guard, there were guard dogs in the military though.

I guess people had guard dogs at their houses, but not the trained type. This is how I would picture dogs in the game:

-They would be in the yards of many houses. As you walk the streets some might bark from time to time from the houses, but this shouldn't alert anyone, unless you stay too long there. If a dog barks at you, you leave that area and once the dog does not see you anymore he will stop barking after a bit (dogs should also bark to other passers-by). This should also be kind of random, not every dog barks when they see someone walking down the streets.
-When you are being an intruder dogs should behave more like guards, with the added ability that if you are too close to them the darkness does not help anymore. But in general there shouldn't be too many dogs inside houses/castles/etc, unless a pet dog, and these dogs should be less alert, maybe sleeping, and unless you get too close to them they would bark or attack (depending on its size :P )

But it would definitely be a good idea, as long as they are not too annoying, when I walk down the streets at night I see a lot of dogs and they don't bark at me, unless they would see me getting inside the house :P

jtr7
18th Jun 2011, 06:20
"In those times"

Thief is not historic, nor a parallel of Earth history, nor another dimension of Earth. What matters is how it affects established gameplay and development.


If we could finally get working quadrupeds, it would be something.

CompendiumOf_Reproach
18th Jun 2011, 06:36
"In those times"

Thief is not historic, nor a parallel of Earth history, nor another dimension of Earth. What matters is how it affects established gameplay and development.


If we could finally get working quadrupeds, it would be something.

I don't agree with the first 4 words. Even if it's not historic in the sense of giving you a date of events, you can tell while you play, even if you just have 2 minutes playing, that it's unlikely that you find a submachine gun around, or a small motorcycle. This should also apply to other innovations that came in the last century, unless it's magic, where Thief's world is pretty advanced.

Hamadriyad
21st Jun 2011, 16:53
But still you can't compare those times with those times of ours. So maybe there were trained dogs to guard.

jtr7
21st Jun 2011, 19:17
Cerberus, the three-headed guard dog.

Dogs have been used as watchdogs since humans have had dogs as pets. History of a time period has nothing to do with it, only the existence of dogs as pets in the world, doing what dogs naturally do as contributors to their pack. Thief has no mention of dogs as pets, except for the term "bulldog," a name for a City Watchman, a mean TDS woman named "Mastiff", and Lords Julian and Ember were called "the scared poodle and the whipped cur," but what's really important is the creation of a nice quadruped AI, which no Thief game developer has been able to do, yet. People named after dog breeds is what we've had, but adding them in is rarely done well.

I imagine the effectiveness of just the sound effect of a loud abrupt dog behind a door, and the lights in the house coming on, and that's very easy compared to having a dog in-game that doesn't suck like every dog in every game that doesn't bring anything very dog-like to the experience. Barking, charging, snapping and biting, and then whining when injured, with rudimentary animation, and having more in common with most small monster AIs--boooooring. But dogs as world-building is nice.

DrTariff
23rd Jun 2011, 03:33
Sounds promising… it sure makes good use of all those 'item' foods that you can drop or throw (but never eat). :thumb:

Additionally… does this mean the cats can return (and that we can distract them in a similar way)? Dogs chasing cats on the streets on occasion, since they are (in a fictional context) natural enemies? That might also be a decent method of distraction for a thief.