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Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 00:57
One of the many tools of a thief is deception... one way to deceive your attackers is to make them think their job is done when it is not...

I was wondering how the community would feel about having the ability to feign death. Let's say you're being attacked and you don't want to use a tool to get out of the situation. After the guard hits you, you can attempt to feign your own death (if you do it without him hitting you he knows what's up, or if you take too long after a hit he knows as well). The guard subsequently sheaths his sword and gives his victory speech like in TDS, and moves on to his normal rounds, if that includes where you "died" and your body isn't there anymore he's instantly on high alert, and it won't work again.

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 01:03
Play possum? Cheesy and gonna be overdone for the laughs. Hopefully no one would love to see his head on a platter! :p

More fuel for those who don't play Garrett as a coward to crap on.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 01:13
It's just an idea :P I would just have really enjoyed the guard sheathing his sword and walking away going "I showed that taffer what - " and then I konked him on the head. It would be satisfying :D

I have no serious investment in this idea, I really was just wondering what other people would think of it.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
16th Jun 2009, 01:25
Yea I don't like it. We have enough ways to escape the guards.

Even in Tenchu it was more of a novelty.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 01:31
I just hope they put in plenty of great quotes for people to be knocked out on like in TMA and TDP...

Vae
16th Jun 2009, 01:34
Yeah, sorry hypevosa no good.

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 01:38
Hmmm... I sense a pattern. :p


At first I thought it was going to reference Garrett's unused objective to get a potion from Doc Waverly's apothecary shop, and drink it to feign his death to get the Enforcers off his back.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 01:59
Really? Too bad I don't delv into code XD I guess they figured it was too cliche, the "fake death" potion has been used a thousand times since romeo and juliet...

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 02:12
Yeah. It's also in the Books folder and Garrett folder, but I got more of the bigger picture from finding a dev quote on TTLG about it, and later found the TriggerScripts in T3Ed. Whew! It was an Auldale objective.

fayfuya
16th Jun 2009, 19:40
Now it's really too much, feign death is just...awful, even in the real life you can't feign the death, cause people and creatures can check your heart and breath, if you would run after some1 then he falls and doesn't stand up anymore i would think he's dead, come on don't be silly.

BlooferLady
16th Jun 2009, 20:47
Yeah, works right up until someone sticks a sword in your chest.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 21:02
Now it's really too much, feign death is just...awful, even in the real life you can't feign the death, cause people and creatures can check your heart and breath, if you would run after some1 then he falls and doesn't stand up anymore i would think he's dead, come on don't be silly.

You can feign death with people in real life... it's just never met with kindness when you start laughing in their face for making them panic. If someone hits you with a sword and you collapse and don't move or speak, they'll probably think you either passed out or are dead. And honestly I don't think many of the guards would be smart enough to check a pulse...and if they are they're definitely close enough for a stab or a flashbomb in the face.

Anyways, I feel the others got it right, it would just be a novelty and probably detract from the game, because there are enough ways to escape as is.

MasterTaffer
16th Jun 2009, 21:09
Nah, cheesy idea. Try again next time.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 21:12
I wonder if they'll make a level where we have to steal some priceless cheese...

Platinumoxicity
16th Jun 2009, 22:23
Ok, from now on every time someone trolls these forums with suggestions of cheesy RPG-ish elements, RPG-skills, equipment upgrade systems or something like that, post this pic:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3471/ff7garrett.png

Aristofiles
16th Jun 2009, 22:32
terible idea. Ok that guards tend to be stupid in games but not that stupid. besides, we wont get caught and we dont need escape options.

lefty
17th Jun 2009, 16:49
What happens after you feign death? The guard calls over a buddy to carry your corpse to a wall to throw over, or drags you into a pond. They're not gonna leave a bloody corpse in the middle of a mansion hallway :P

Hamadriyad
17th Jun 2009, 16:57
If I was a guard and I killed(or I saw somebody's death)somebody, I would make sure he will stay death way.

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 17:10
Actually, in Thief, the guards are stupid and will totally ignore the body after a couple of minutes, never saying another word, nor acting like there's a corpse blocking their pathfinding. :lol:

kabatta
17th Jun 2009, 17:12
Ok, from now on every time someone trolls these forums with suggestions of cheesy RPG-ish elements, RPG-skills, equipment upgrade systems or something like that, post this pic:
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3471/ff7garrett.png

Mana points? I wanted energy points. Anywhoo...Garrett allready plays dead in thief. Just look how quick he collapses. And in only 2 secounds. :D

esme
17th Jun 2009, 17:16
I 'it 'im and 'e fell down dead .... so I hit 'im some more ... then stabbed 'im a bit fer practice .... then set the dogs on 'im 'cos they was 'ungry ... then we set fire to 'im as it were a bit cold and we needed a warm ... but 'e went out so we doused 'im in oil an tried again an' d'you know the bugger were only pretending! 'e made a 'elluva racket when we lit 'im up the second time so we 'it 'im some more until 'e stopped 'e made a lovely fire once 'e were goin'

kabatta
17th Jun 2009, 17:17
Ok, stop that. You're creeping me out. Edited the third time: finnaly got it. No need for translation :P

esme
17th Jun 2009, 17:30
sorry :o

Hamadriyad
17th Jun 2009, 17:33
Actually, in Thief, the guards are stupid and will totally ignore the body after a couple of minutes, never saying another word, nor acting like there's a corpse blocking their pathfinding. :lol:

So we hope Thief IV give us clever guards.:)

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 17:43
Not too clever, that could break the game. They are really puzzle pieces moving on a game board, both predictable, and surprising when the player introduces new elements that get unexpected reactions.

kaekaelyn
17th Jun 2009, 17:58
What would a real guard do when he finds a corpse? Probably just never give up searching for the remainder of the night... Guess he wouldn't move it or anything, since he knows there's someone in the building and he can't afford to give up his guarding duties just to remove the body.

Hamadriyad
17th Jun 2009, 18:11
Yes, he never give up, until he die toooo....:D
But this is Thief right? We don't want to kill anybody.:p

kabatta
17th Jun 2009, 18:21
We'll just give him his much needed rest. :P

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 18:29
Wouldn't the City Watch be alerted about it?

Maybe Garrett would be carted off to the Shoalsgate Morgue.

kabatta
17th Jun 2009, 19:28
Hm...an extra escape mission. Sounds fun.

Hamadriyad
17th Jun 2009, 19:50
Morgue? Sounds creepy.

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 19:57
In Thief 2 Gold's version of Framed, the dead Pagan looks freshly killed on the autopsy table. There is more blood, and a bloody cleaver is resting near his head. The report still says he died of Paganism, but cutting him with a meat cleaver doesn't corroborate that.

Hypevosa
17th Jun 2009, 19:57
escape from the shoalgate morgue... you take a feign death potion and they decide to skip the autopsy and just bury you... you wake up in the coffin in some graveyard, and have to escape... without any equipment MWAHAHAHAHAHA, sounds like a Halloween release mission they should make.

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 20:06
It would be even sicker if they pulled out his mech eye, and he had to go on a mission to get all his stuff back, only to find his eye in pieces, so he has to reassemble it, find the special fluid for it, and destroy the notes written in the study of it, then give the scientist amnesia.

Then in true Thief spirit, he learns of other things as he does this that tie into the greater plot.

13LACK13ISHOP
17th Jun 2009, 20:19
Good idea. I wanted this in to but only if it is implemented well like next to corpses or in blood and stuff. We should have full control over Garret instead of being put in a box. I think it will give people more ways of dealing with the current circumstances.

kabatta
18th Jun 2009, 05:21
The ideea of Garrett getting burried alive remind me of the shovelheads.

Yaphy
18th Jun 2009, 11:56
But the guards shouldnt leave a corpse in the middle of the hallway.

ToMegaTherion
18th Jun 2009, 13:22
When you die, some imps should carry your corpse to a graveyard, where you have a chance of rising as Vampire Garrett.

lefty
18th Jun 2009, 17:04
When you die, some imps should carry your corpse to a graveyard, where you have a chance of rising as Vampire Garrett.

Ha... dungeon keeper.

kabatta
18th Jun 2009, 17:26
That was funny. =))

fayfuya
19th Jun 2009, 16:21
And honestly I don't think many of the guards would be smart enough to check a pulse....
That's your mistake my child, Thief 4's AI are gonna be much smarter, they are better to be, i'm sick of dumb opponents.
If i were a guard and i would stab somebody then he falls to the ground i would take him to the City Watch station to get a fat bonus...then Garrett would be in a city watch station, come on it's non-sense, although it could be fun to do so.

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 18:25
They are supposed to be dumb, otherwise the game is unplayable for most. The guards of the originals were made more challenging, and had to be dialed back to find a balance. The balance was that the game was pretty hard for some, enjoyably challenging for some, and too easy for some. That's how it has to be.

You want multi-player, and will have to wait for the Ultimate Difficulty Mod.

Hypevosa
22nd Jun 2009, 05:01
That's your mistake my child, Thief 4's AI are gonna be much smarter, they are better to be, i'm sick of dumb opponents.
If i were a guard and i would stab somebody then he falls to the ground i would take him to the City Watch station to get a fat bonus...then Garrett would be in a city watch station, come on it's non-sense, although it could be fun to do so.

There's a difference between AI, and actual intelligence. Most people back then hadn't the slightest idea how the body actually works, so not knowing to check for a pulse is really a reasonable expectation (think about how even the doctors were prescribing things like taking less baths, and drinking ox blood for an infected finger (in TDS), and how they were burning people with dry heat to get rid of emotive humors in the cradle).

Terr
22nd Jun 2009, 21:47
No way.

You know the first thing the guards will do is try to loot your corpse (perhaps indirectly and deniably stealing from their own employer) and then pull out anything that looks shiny inside your mouth.

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 22:43
Behead you, put your head on a pike, and hang your body over a City Gate with the word "THIEF" painted on a placard hanging from your ankles with your own blood.

Zahr Dalsk
23rd Jun 2009, 00:01
Here's an idea.

Don't get caught in the first place.

When I get spotted, I just go ahead and quickload, simple as that.

jtr7
23rd Jun 2009, 00:49
Hahahaha! Of course, but that's considered a cheat! It's the players' prerogative, though, and really defeats the point of being able to play possum, which isn't a good idea, anyway.

Zahr Dalsk
23rd Jun 2009, 02:00
Quickloading is hardly cheating. If I've been spotted at all, I consider that having lost, just as bad as actually dying. Same with killing humans. I consider that a loss. Thus, reload.

Hypevosa
23rd Jun 2009, 02:05
Quickloading is hardly cheating. If I've been spotted at all, I consider that having lost, just as bad as actually dying. Same with killing humans. I consider that a loss. Thus, reload.

See the game just ends for me when I kill people. Loading isn't cheating so much as it is just a means of allowing the player to not have to play the same level 50 times before they can do it perfectly. Most people just don't have that sort of patience, and that much patience shouldn't be expected of them.

jtr7
23rd Jun 2009, 02:09
Actually it kills your chance of learning how to escape if you don't at least try that first, and it does allow you to perfect playing a level by working through the tricky spots until you get it right or better.

It's a cheat if you prevent consequences rather than learning from your mistake. If you ACTUALLY fail, you can still reload your quicksave.

catelee2u
28th Jun 2009, 03:33
It could be okay if there was a limit on its use, say you can only do it once per level otherwise it's a get out of every situation type move. It would add a little variation.
I'm not really sure about it but open to the idea. Depends on implementation.

lyssyder
29th Jun 2009, 15:16
I say no because it can detract from the high tension of the game.
Are you about to die ? Then run ruunn ruuuuuuuuuun or fight.
I want to be the maker of my own doom, leaving my life/death
at the hands of chance ??...mmm...I prefer to run =)

I think that feign death is a nice idea but maybe not for thief.

TheEye
4th Jul 2009, 09:54
nope. we have flash bombs, oil flasks, climbing gloves etc.introducing a fake death option will make the game WAY TOO easy and make it unnecessarily complicated as well. besides, how do you know that if the pagans "kill" you they wont try , oh i dunno - EATING you alive, being primitives and all?!?! :lol: