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oberon_dog
15th Jun 2009, 11:51
Even though Thief is one of the best stealth games to ever come out....it could probably draw some inspiration from some others.

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Splinter Cell : Chaos Theory

Mouse wheel controls speed.
This was such an intuitive way of controlling the speed of your sneaking. More speed created more noise. If there was no ambient noise at all you rolled the mouse wheel back and crept around at a snails pace. Nice.

Ambient noise
Your HUD showed how much ambient noise there was at any given time, and how much noise you were making in relation to it. It was simple and introduced an interesting game-play element.

Stealthy use of the environment
You really felt sneaky when climbing up a poll shimmying across a ledge and zip lining down a wire so that you could drop in behind some guards. Levels were much more like puzzles which could be solved in different ways...they weren't just about crouching and moving slowly.

More realistic environment sounds
One of the few things I hated about thief was the sound you made when walking on a tiled floor. Suddenly I'm wearing tap-shoes and guards came running from miles away to watch the show. It's quite simple...if Garret is wearing tap shoes in Thief 4, I'm not buying it. Splinter cell had great environment sounds.

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Oblivion

Customizing your character
It gave oblivion such great replay because you could create different types of sneaky characters each time you played through the game. Thug-thief, nimble thief, poison thief....and so on.

Open world
I actually don't think Thief 4 should try to go open world...but if it must than Oblivion sets the bar.

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Hitman

Hitman 2 was my favorite.

Unique weapons/items
If you wanted to, you could explore the levels a little more than necessary and find special items which you could use through the rest of the game.

Customizing weapons
I think this was in Hitman Bloodlines. It was fun spending your cash to customize your weapons at the end of each level and it also helped with replay. You could blow your cash creating the ultimate arsenal of heavy weapons to play the game through as a thug...or upgrade you gadgets to create the perfect ghost.

Limited save
Bit controversial this one....but I actually like only having 5 save games per level....it made the game more intense and was more engrossing...when you screwed up you had to make a plan...and sometimes those 'plans' were the most fun you had in the game.


What other games do you think Thief 4 might borrow from ?

Platinumoxicity
15th Jun 2009, 12:47
1.There are many different speed levels in Thief, running, walking, crouching and slow crouching, but I do like the wheel idea. :P
2.No. If you need this, you're too stupid for Thief.
3.Of course, more complexity and puzzles. But no time-based platform-jumping puzzles. Not thiefy.
4.This is where game meets realism and game wins. Anything besides carpet, grass or moss arrows that make you completely silent has no place in Thief.

5.Nooo. You decide with your skills and playing style how your "character" plays. There are no varying statistics that determine your strenght or stealth. No exceptions.
6.Good and huge missions first, open world second if at all.

7.I actually like the idea of being able to pick up a crossbow, but you should not be able to take them with you to the next levels. Learn to use your basic equipment well, don't expect any upgrades.
8.(Hitman Blood money) Learn to use your basic equipment well, don't expect any upgrades.
9.You can do this yourself, it doesn't have to be enforced.

oberon_dog
15th Jun 2009, 13:20
just going to comment on some of these.


1.There are many different speed levels in Thief, running, walking, crouching and slow crouching, but I do like the wheel idea. :P

Yeah the four speed levels were fine in Thief but the mouse wheel felt so much more organic. Your finger was constantly on it adjusting it slightly,up and down, as you played. It's a stealth game after-all and it could use more of this type of control.



3.Of course, more complexity and puzzles. But no time-based platform-jumping puzzles. Not thiefy.

Agreed. The dexterity in Assassins creed was FAR too much in my opinion...but Splinter cell was just right. You were human ..just more agile than most humans. You could vault up a wall and wait for guards to walk underneath you. It lent itself to more game-play decisions.



4.This is where game meets realism and game wins. Anything besides carpet, grass or moss arrows that make you completely silent has no place in Thief.


Really? I though this would be something which everyone would be in agreement with. Surely there are better ways of forcing you to be careful of the sound you are making than changing the 'laws of nature'. If anything, walking on tiles would be quieter than a carpet...especially if you are wearing soft boots. This is a level design issue IMO....like in T2 when you had to walk on creaky wooden floor boards....far more believable.



9.You can do this yourself, it doesn't have to be enforced.

Of course. Come to think of it (and this is going back about 10 years...so I may be wrong) but didn't Thief 2 enforce a limited number of saves.

ToMegaTherion
15th Jun 2009, 13:29
For the surface sounds, I suppose it is simpler to understand having the surfaces make the same relative noise for the guards as for the thief. Sure, it may be more realistic if marble is noisiest for guards and fairly quiet for thieves, but I like the concept of surfaces making the same relative noises for guards and thieves.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 13:35
I don't understand why they don't just take a guy about the size of Garrett, put Garrett's shoes on him (probably hard leather), and have him parade around on the surfaces they're simulating in the game. Have him run, have him walk, have him creep, have him crouch run, crouch walk, crouch creep, and record the noises and use them for the game. Then have someone the same general size of a guard walk around in their boots on the surfaces walking, running, and walking with suspicion.

I'd also like to see something where we can time our steps with the guard's so they don't know we're there :D

esme
15th Jun 2009, 13:47
I stealthily use my environment so that I can go over or around an AI and drop down behind them using rope arrows I am not limited to creeping in shadows

unless of course I'm playing Deadly Shadows

the other games pretty much learned everything from TDP & TMA
...I'd also like to see something where we can time our steps with the guard's so they don't know we're there :DI do that anyway, despite it not working :lol:

oberon_dog
15th Jun 2009, 13:53
For the surface sounds, I suppose it is simpler to understand having the surfaces make the same relative noise for the guards as for the thief. Sure, it may be more realistic if marble is noisiest for guards and fairly quiet for thieves, but I like the concept of surfaces making the same relative noises for guards and thieves.


I guess I just felt the loud CLICK CLACK of walking on tiles a bit too much. It was almost ridiculous how loud it was... I thought Garret was wearing stilettos at one point. He's supposed to be a thief..


I like the idea of the 'timed steps'.

oberon_dog
15th Jun 2009, 13:58
Some other things I liked from Hitman and Splinter cell.

The ability to grab people from behind and interrogate them (or using them as a meat shield)...before knocking them out.

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 14:06
I like that in splinter cell. But I can't be sure for Thief.
And timed steps will not work probably. Because If you timed your steps, it will create a echo effect which is suspicious. But If there are 2 two guards and you knock out one, you can do that in my opinion. (Maybe we can whistle like guard who knocked out.:D)

esme
15th Jun 2009, 14:06
Some other things I liked from Hitman and Splinter cell.

The ability to grab people from behind and interrogate them (or using them as a meat shield)...before knocking them out.

that actually put me off SC

oberon_dog
15th Jun 2009, 14:08
that actually put me off SC

Why ?

esme
15th Jun 2009, 14:15
Why ?well that and the killing, just didn't feel right

dark_angel_7
15th Jun 2009, 14:18
One of the best more 'modern' (in terms of settings) stealth games is Hitman so maybe they can look a bit at that since they're both owned by Eidos. I don't want them copying too much though. Try something fresh on their own.

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 14:25
Hitman NPCs are idiot.(At least they were idiot in Hitman 1.I've never played other Hitman games.)

oberon_dog
15th Jun 2009, 14:49
One of the best more 'modern' (in terms of settings) stealth games is Hitman so maybe they can look a bit at that since they're both owned by Eidos. I don't want them copying too much though. Try something fresh on their own.

It will take a lot to make Thief feel 'copied'. It blasts every other stealth game out the water in terms of lore, story-telling, plot and just plain character.

Some of the other games mentioned here are also very good though. IMO, Most of the games I mentioned are better than Thief DS (although DS is still a cool game) . It's not really fair to compare them to Thief 2 because that was released in the late nineties(if I remember correctly)....but still ...it going to take quite a bit for Thief to revitalize itself with these other games as a backdrop.

Necros
15th Jun 2009, 14:51
Splinter Cell : Chaos Theory

Mouse wheel controls speed.
Yes, this would be good.

Ambient noise
No need for this, it doesn't belong in a Thief game.

Stealthy use of the environment
Yes, I'd like to see something like that too but only if it fits in the game.

More realistic environment sounds
The sounds were fine, it's your boots making those noises. And I think they shouldn't change this.

Oblivion
Customizing your character
NO.

Open world
Only something like in Thief 3, just done better. Though it's not necessary at all, it would be a nice addition.

Hitman
Unique weapons/items
:thumb:

Customizing weapons
Not necessary.

Limited save
HELL NO! ****

huzi73
15th Jun 2009, 15:35
If I were 10 years younger... Than maybe, just maybe, I'd agree with the oblivion inspiration part. Dude, this just aint thief. Maybe the SC moves. Like the wall split, but nothing else

kaekaelyn
15th Jun 2009, 15:42
I actually like the idea of sound cover, but I don't think there should be a graphical sound meter.

Belboz
15th Jun 2009, 16:07
well basically thief is thief it isn't something that it made up of the worst points from other less stealthy games.

HellionKal
15th Jun 2009, 16:29
With the exception of the decibelometer, everything oblivion-related (don't even get me started), and the limited saves number, the rest of your ideas could probably work if tinkered-with a bit.

oberon_dog
15th Jun 2009, 18:25
I actually like the idea of sound cover, but I don't think there should be a graphical sound meter.

Yeah . I think people are being a bit close minded about the ambient sound thing. It does not have to have a graphical representation but it really brings in a great game-play feature to consider the sound you are making in relation to the sound around you. It's exactly what you wold do if you were a thief. For example, In SC you might switch on a radio to disguise the noise you were about to make.

It does not need a graphical representation but remember, they managed to work your light sensing jewel into Thief lore....nobody complains about that.

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 18:44
Shadows may misleading. You think is pitch black sometimes but actually it isn't. Sound is more clearly noticable than shadows.That's why we need a light gem and we don't need a some kind of sound meter.

kaekaelyn
15th Jun 2009, 19:19
It's a pretty cool thought...timing your footsteps with the thunder, letting machinery mask the noise you're making. And beyond that, it just makes sense. A graphical display would probably cheese it up too much, so let's just have it the way the Keepers teach: Listen to the sound of your own footsteps. With a few screwy exceptions, sound in Thief has always been pretty intuitive--you can usually tell if you're making enough noise to attract attention. This would be a good improvement to a good system.

esme
16th Jun 2009, 11:12
why a graphical sound meter ?

you have ears, if you can hear yourself over the ambient noise then so can the AI

well depending on how far away they are they can

if you can't hear yourself over the ambient noise then you are covered

AbysmalGale
16th Jun 2009, 12:12
Mouse wheel controls speed.
This was such an intuitive way of controlling the speed of your sneaking. More speed created more noise. If there was no ambient noise at all you rolled the mouse wheel back and crept around at a snails pace. Nice.

This could be a good idea.


Ambient noise
Your HUD showed how much ambient noise there was at any given time, and how much noise you were making in relation to it. It was simple and introduced an interesting game-play element.

Thief isn't about cool technology. My ears worked fine as a noise detector in the previous Thief games. This idea would kill the immersion.


Stealthy use of the environment
You really felt sneaky when climbing up a poll shimmying across a ledge and zip lining down a wire so that you could drop in behind some guards. Levels were much more like puzzles which could be solved in different ways...they weren't just about crouching and moving slowly.

I'm all open for more puzzles in Thief 4, so yeah, why not?


More realistic environment sounds
One of the few things I hated about thief was the sound you made when walking on a tiled floor. Suddenly I'm wearing tap-shoes and guards came running from miles away to watch the show. It's quite simple...if Garret is wearing tap shoes in Thief 4, I'm not buying it. Splinter cell had great environment sounds.

I see your point with this, but Thief would be much too easy if tiles wouldn't make so much sound. So no need for changes on this subject.


Customizing your character
It gave oblivion such great replay because you could create different types of sneaky characters each time you played through the game. Thug-thief, nimble thief, poison thief....and so on.

BIG NO!!!


Open world
I actually don't think Thief 4 should try to go open world...but if it must than Oblivion sets the bar.

Maybe. I haven't decided what I think about this idea. I was kind of supporting this thought before, but now I'm quite unsure. I think it worked pretty poorly in TDS, but then again TDS was packed with disgusting loading zones which ruined 50% of the game.


Unique weapons/items
If you wanted to, you could explore the levels a little more than necessary and find special items which you could use through the rest of the game.

This could work, but I don't think it will be necessary. IF it will be possible to find some equipment during a mission, I hope it will disappear when the mission is finished.


Customizing weapons
I think this was in Hitman Bloodlines. It was fun spending your cash to customize your weapons at the end of each level and it also helped with replay. You could blow your cash creating the ultimate arsenal of heavy weapons to play the game through as a thug...or upgrade you gadgets to create the perfect ghost.

Absolutely not!


Limited save
Bit controversial this one....but I actually like only having 5 save games per level....it made the game more intense and was more engrossing...when you screwed up you had to make a plan...and sometimes those 'plans' were the most fun you had in the game.

No saving limits! I think the saving concept has worked fine in previous Thief titles.

JohnnyB_©
16th Jun 2009, 16:15
I was playing Oblivion like i was playing THIEF.
Made a Stealthy Dark Elf to resemble my character in Lineage 2 (Ghosthunter) and played everywhere with Dagger and Bow.
The Open World gameplay thrilled me to the point of no return.
Especially when i read that they incorporated stealth features that were influenced from Light and Noise.
I really wish that THIEF could be have such a vast enviroment to explore.

Platinumoxicity
16th Jun 2009, 16:35
I really wish that THIEF could be have such a vast enviroment to explore.

Vast environments are hard to make so that every little place is made with extreme detail. The only game that I have seen with that feature has been Far Cry 2, but that was all thanks to a brilliant level editor, and it's also a quite simple game. In a game like Thief there are so many more things to consider that making an 82 square kilometer area would take forever.

TheMasterBuilder
16th Jun 2009, 17:43
I seriously can't stand the ability to save at will. It reminds me of what 12 year olds would do. 'cause i'd be saving the game every time i knocked out a guard successively when i was 12 or 13 years old myself.

A game that allows saving in moderation is much better in my opinion. The sense of accomplishment is that much greater. 'Cause you can't just hit f7 to reload a game when you're spotted by a guard and wait the millisecond for it to load up again.

I know it's an issue of willpower, but there are some people that are "power gamers" and play to perfection trying to find EVERYTHING, have max amount of consumables, and full health the entire playthrough. I'd imagine they'd actually have more fun if they barely scrape by.

kaekaelyn
16th Jun 2009, 18:20
I quicksave/quickload constantly during undead levels because they scare me so much I want to be able to reload every time an undead sees me. I just can't help it. Sometimes I pay for my constant frantic quickloading by accidentally mashing both F11 and F12 at the same time while I'm being chased by an apparition or Haunt or whatever. That's when I have to evade them for real.

I'd probably have a lot more fun if I weren't allowed to save so damn often. It's like I can't stop myself because I'm so scared, but if I couldn't, I'd have to face my fears. I guess that makes me one of the few to support limited saves.

ToMegaTherion
16th Jun 2009, 18:23
I don't really enjoy playing the same bit of the game many times in succession, so I appreciate being able to save whenever I want. Also being a casual gamer I don't necessarily want to play for too long in a single session.

kaekaelyn
16th Jun 2009, 18:35
Yeah, I understand that. It can be really frustrating.

AbysmalGale
16th Jun 2009, 18:35
The fact that real life will interfere with Thief gaming makes a "save-whenever-you-like"-option almost inevitable. What if I have to visit the bathroom, give someone a hand, do some work etc all of a sudden. I know at least I won't be able to play a game many hours in a row in the future, like in the days of my golden youth. I'm getting married this summer and who knows if I have a kid when T4 comes out. In that case I won't be able to sit by the computer more than 30 minutes in a row, tops.

I see the point with saving restrictions, but will it work practically? Not everyone who enjoys Thief will be able to sit glued to the screen for long periods of time. Most of us have a lot of other things going on in real life at the same time. Thief is a game that requires a lot of time, thus it is important to be able to save frequently.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 20:57
you could just have a save system where there's 5 optional save slots per level, and there's one for whenever you quit the game it stores a temporary save there until you start playing again.

esme
16th Jun 2009, 22:01
you could just have a save system where there's 5 optional save slots per level, and there's one for whenever you quit the game it stores a temporary save there until you start playing again.

which means once all five slots are used people would just quit the game to make a save point before trying anything risky and get extremely frustrated with the game and eventually sell it to second hand game stores

let people save when they want as often as they want, then if you want to iron man a level it's your choice and not forced on you

Platinumoxicity
16th Jun 2009, 22:07
Since I don't like playing the "no-save" style, I prefer ghosting, every time I'm detected and realize that the last time I saved was 45 minutes ago, I turn off the game, stab someone with a screwdriver and go have a cigarette. :mad: So making players "save their saves for later" doesn't add anything but frustration to the gameplay.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 22:12
which means once all five slots are used people would just quit the game to make a save point before trying anything risky

it's temporary, it gets deleted when you reenter the game.

As for me, I don't want to not be able to save when I want, but I realize my experience in thief would be more tense and suspenseful if I didn't get to save before every risky situation.

lefty
16th Jun 2009, 22:24
I seriously can't stand the ability to save at will. It reminds me of what 12 year olds would do. 'cause i'd be saving the game every time i knocked out a guard successively when i was 12 or 13 years old myself.

A game that allows saving in moderation is much better in my opinion. The sense of accomplishment is that much greater. 'Cause you can't just hit f7 to reload a game when you're spotted by a guard and wait the millisecond for it to load up again.

I know it's an issue of willpower, but there are some people that are "power gamers" and play to perfection trying to find EVERYTHING, have max amount of consumables, and full health the entire playthrough. I'd imagine they'd actually have more fun if they barely scrape by.

Forcing a completist to use limited saves would be like forcing you to find every piece of loot and item in the game. Personally, I hate hate hate doing **** over in games, so I save often. Usually I only use one slot per level anyway and override that save a few minutes later, but that's not the point.

esme
16th Jun 2009, 22:38
it's temporary, it gets deleted when you reenter the game.

As for me, I don't want to not be able to save when I want, but I realize my experience in thief would be more tense and suspenseful if I didn't get to save before every risky situation.
even worse, I'd probably throw my PC out of the window by the second mission if I had limited saves

I occasionally forget to save then do something stupid and realise I haven't got a save for the last half hour, times like that you do not want to be in the same room with me, and you definitely don't want to suggest that limiting my saves might be a good idea if you want to get out of the room alive

so instead of "tense and suspenseful" I'd say "frustrating and annoying"

I once played one of the Tomb Raider games and was extremely p*ssed off to be told by the machine that I was not allowed to make a savegame at a point I wanted to make one

I never bothered finishing the level, in fact I don't think I pressed another key except to exit the game, the game was subsequently deinstalled and sold to to a shop presumably to be purchased by someone who likes being told what to do by something they've paid for

lefty
16th Jun 2009, 22:40
even worse, I'd probably throw my PC out of the window by the second mission if I had limited saves

I occasionally forget to save then do something stupid and realise I haven't got a save for the last half hour, times like that you do not want to be in the same room with me, and you definitely don't want to suggest that limiting my saves might be a good idea if you want to get out of the room alive

so instead of "tense and suspenseful" I'd say "frustrating and annoying"

I once played one of the Tomb Raider games and was extremely p*ssed off to be told by the machine that I was not allowed to make a savegame at a point I wanted to make one

I never bothered finishing the level, in fact I don't think I pressed another key except to exit the game, the game was subsequently deinstalled and sold to to a shop presumably to be purchased by someone who likes being told what to do by something they've paid for

This is me, basically. The sole reason I've never beat the cragscleft mission is because I keep forgetting to ******* save.

TheMasterBuilder
16th Jun 2009, 23:14
I don't get why people reload after they do something stupid. It's alot more fun to mess up. That's the only point i'm making. I think it makes you a better player knowing that the only reason you'll reload is at death, not just 'cause you have 1% health and 20 guards after you.

You'll escape and now you have the remaining hour left of the level with 1% health and no consumables. Now you're a master thief!

ToMegaTherion
16th Jun 2009, 23:31
I think some people have objectives other than getting better at the game.

esme
17th Jun 2009, 00:11
I don't get why people reload after they do something stupid. It's alot more fun to mess up. That's the only point i'm making. I think it makes you a better player knowing that the only reason you'll reload is at death, not just 'cause you have 1% health and 20 guards after you.

You'll escape and now you have the remaining hour left of the level with 1% health and no consumables. Now you're a master thief!the only reason I reload is because I've just impacted the floor or got stuck under an elevator or died in any of a hundred different ways, I just don't want to play through the last 25 minutes again if I can avoid it

one of my more embarrassing deaths was in a T2 FM, I climbed up a ladder in a deep sewer, opened the top and climbed out, I started scanning the rooftops for likely spots to place a rope arrow as there was lots of wood up there and took a step back so I could see a bit better :o

and my last save was a good 20 minutes previously as well

if I merely lose health then I'll tough it out

Terr
17th Jun 2009, 01:29
I like everything on the list except...
Character customization: No, just have loadout customization. It could also add story complexity issues.
Limited saves.

"Special weapons" should be a type of special loot ;)


well that and the killing, just didn't feel right
... In Chaos Theory? My pacifist record in it 3 knockouts and 0 kills. There's like, what... 1 game-logic-required kill (Lacerda) and two or three required knockouts. Even on hard, the game gives you lots of opportunities to ghost.


Shadows may misleading. You think is pitch black sometimes but actually it isn't. Sound is more clearly noticable than shadows.That's why we need a light gem and we don't need a some kind of sound meter.
I'd argue the reverse. It's easy to tell how dark it is around you, doubly so if you have a third-person toggle or the light affects your viewmodel. Sound is harder to calibrate accurately, given different sound-systems, output devices, EAX/A3D, etc. Not to mention the difference between "loud" sounds and "distinctive" sounds.

You can intuitively interpret how light propogates through a level. Sound? Not so much.

jtr7
17th Jun 2009, 01:43
I didn't realize this was ever a problem with the games.

Thieffanman
17th Jun 2009, 03:05
Ambient noise
Your HUD showed how much ambient noise there was at any given time, and how much noise you were making in relation to it. It was simple and introduced an interesting game-play element.

This sounds interesting. I think this might have potential in Thief.



Stealthy use of the environment
You really felt sneaky when climbing up a poll shimmying across a ledge and zip lining down a wire so that you could drop in behind some guards. Levels were much more like puzzles which could be solved in different ways...they weren't just about crouching and moving slowly.

This already happened in TDS-- for example, in Stonemarket there were upper-story pipes to run across to avoid guards below, on the street.



More realistic environment sounds
One of the few things I hated about thief was the sound you made when walking on a tiled floor. Suddenly I'm wearing tap-shoes and guards came running from miles away to watch the show. It's quite simple...if Garret is wearing tap shoes in Thief 4, I'm not buying it. Splinter cell had great environment sounds.

TDS's environmental sounds were realistic enough. The way to avoid the "tap shoe" sounds was to creep :).



Customizing your character
It gave oblivion such great replay because you could create different types of sneaky characters each time you played through the game. Thug-thief, nimble thief, poison thief....and so on.

I like this idea. However, to me this sounds like Garrett is defined by how he is armed, or how the player wishes to play him (ie. thug, poison). I'd leave it to the devs to figure how a customizable Garrett would work in the game, but hopefully it would be more than being defined by types of weaponry or playing style.



Open world
I actually don't think Thief 4 should try to go open world...but if it must than Oblivion sets the bar.

No open world. I'd say leave it more mission-specific, like Half-Life 2's layout: You were going in one particular direction on a particular mission, but a *lot* of different events happened during a mission to make it interesting.



Unique weapons/items
If you wanted to, you could explore the levels a little more than necessary and find special items which you could use through the rest of the game.

Sounds cool, but I wouldn't walk to make Thief just a "magic item hunt", the way some fantasy games turn out.



Customizing weapons
I think this was in Hitman Bloodlines. It was fun spending your cash to customize your weapons at the end of each level and it also helped with replay. You could blow your cash creating the ultimate arsenal of heavy weapons to play the game through as a thug...or upgrade you gadgets to create the perfect ghost.

It *sounds* cool . . . but I'm leery of this. I'm all in favor of having different combinations of weapons for the player, but above all, the game should be focused on stealth. Unfortunately, I'd see this worked the wrong way: players would focus on making a weapon that can slay more people, versus trying to remain stealthy.



Limited save
Bit controversial this one....but I actually like only having 5 save games per level....it made the game more intense and was more engrossing...when you screwed up you had to make a plan...and sometimes those 'plans' were the most fun you had in the game.


Disagree. One of the things I liked about TDS was the ability to save at will. I say let that remain; it makes for much more pleasant gameplay.


What other games do you think Thief 4 might borrow from ?

"Half Life 2": The physics engine(s) used in the game rocked, there was the right balance of puzzle-solving and action, the soundtrack was great, and the environment design was just amazing.

Yes, I have much love for that game :).

--Thieffanman