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Hamadriyad
14th Jun 2009, 18:44
Opening doors from long distance always comes to me weird. We should able to open the doors when we near them only.
And keys, there should be doors that need keys, like TDP and TMA. In TDS, keys were useless If I am not wrong. All locks can be picking.
And we need a key circle like in COSAS.
These are my requests.Any addition about doors and keys?

Platinumoxicity
14th Jun 2009, 19:06
-Doors should be lockable with the keys you have like in T1 and T2.
-There should be combination locks that guards use and you need to observe them and see what combination they punch in to open the door.

Hamadriyad
14th Jun 2009, 19:14
Combination is a good idea. But these doors should be special.Combination for every door may be boring.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 20:19
I like the ability to relock doors, but I did like how in TDS they emphasized master thief by allowing every door to be pickable... instead do what you said, and have different locking mechanisms, like in TMA where they had the gears and stuff. Instead of the game going "No, you can't pick this despite being a master thief" the player can go "Oh, there's nothing to pick, so how do I open this door..." and let them figure it out.

Nate
14th Jun 2009, 20:24
Some locks were just beyond Garrett...just like today there are some locks that can't be picked.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 20:28
There are no locks that can't be picked today except those that use a different mechanism than a normal key. Like how some car keys have microchips in them as well that start the car when you put the key in. If it uses a key (and just a key, meaning a jagged oddly shaped piece of metal), it can be picked by one means or another .

jtr7
14th Jun 2009, 20:32
Like I said, there's a reason Garrett kept Basso around.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 20:34
Hahaha, I wonder how basso and his wife are doing... Wait, in TMA we didn't have lockpicks in that level, I thought that's why we kept basso around?

jtr7
14th Jun 2009, 20:36
I like to think that after Jenivere's rescue, Basso taught Garrett his special tricks, and that's why Garrett is getting into more doors and safes! :D

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 20:37
That could be the "favor" that he owed us for doing the job in the first place. That would also explain why we magically have our picks in the next level.

Nate
14th Jun 2009, 21:15
In my youth, when challenged to get through a door without using the key, I used a chainsaw instead with good results......probably not exactly stealthy though.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
15th Jun 2009, 00:02
-Doors should be lockable with the keys you have like in T1 and T2.
-There should be combination locks that guards use and you need to observe them and see what combination they punch in to open the door.

word.

And I did kinda hate how far you could be from stuff to 'use' them. It's really easy to pick a pocket in the old thief games, but I'm finding that in TDS I have to get REALLY close to actually take what's on them. I don't know if it's a mod or if it's just like that, but I like it. And of course the lockpicking, in TDS you have to get right on it. In the others I could usually get in a nearby shadow or behind something while I pick a lock.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 00:08
the pickpocketing makes sense to me, because even if you could cut the purse from a full arm's length, you couldn't catch it without someone noticing... in TDS you have to get close enough to actually make the cut as well as grab it silently.

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 08:35
We should able to open doors slowly (like DarthEnder said in another thread) If we want open like previously games then we click twice right mouse button. If we want open slowly, we click once, then move mouse wheel forward/backward(open/close).

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 08:45
The game probably won't be for just PC, which is why you can't depend on a mouse wheel...

I had a suggestion for opening doors slowly as well, and only opening them a crack. I basically made any action you used in combination with the creep button a cautious action. Example, you hold the creep button and right click a door, you only open the door half way, and very slow, you can then lean around the door to look inside, then release the creep button to open the door the rest of the way, or you can right click again to slowly shut the door.

Using the run button had the opposite effect, like if you're running from guards you see a door and right click holding run to fling the door open quickly and loudly.

Creep=cautious action
walk=normal action
run=quick and dirty action

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 09:14
You are right, I like that solution. But I wish Thief will be just for PC.;)

Platinumoxicity
15th Jun 2009, 09:17
the pickpocketing makes sense to me, because even if you could cut the purse from a full arm's length, you couldn't catch it without someone noticing... in TDS you have to get close enough to actually make the cut as well as grab it silently.

Yeah, but the pickpocketing distance for the money purse was hard coded to the model so if there was one of those purses in a high chest it was (impossible) to frob.



Creep=cautious action
walk=normal action
run=quick and dirty action

What's creep? I only had "Run forward" and "walk"
P.S I'm ignoring the "creep" funtion of TDS because it was the stupidest thing ever.

kin
15th Jun 2009, 09:20
Any addition about doors and keys?
Just keep keys in their real size. I will not stand it if I hear that there are huge keys floating and rotating after you blackjack someone.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 09:20
Aww, but what about us console owners who probably won't have the rig to play it? I want to play it on my laptop, but I can barely handle TDS, not to mention what thief 4 will hopefully be. It doesn't make sense to exclude an entire audience just cause they can't afford what's necessary to play it. :(

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 09:22
Yeah, but the pickpocketing distance for the money purse was hard coded to the model so if there was one of those purses in a high chest it was (impossible) to frob.

yeah, again, thank the stupid devs for that one. I remember jumping up and down to get the right angle for one. What's hillarious is that some items can be taken out of chests before they're unlocked. I stole that special cat statue from the gold smith's chest before I even picked it XD

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 09:24
QUOTEAww, but what about us console owners who probably won't have the rig to play it? I want to play it on my laptop, but I can barely handle TDS, not to mention what thief 4 will hopefully be. It doesn't make sense to exclude an entire audience just cause they can't afford what's necessary to play it. QUOTE



You are right again, sorry.I am a little bit of selfish I guess.:flowers:

ToMegaTherion
15th Jun 2009, 09:25
What's creep? I only had "Run forward" and "walk"
P.S I'm ignoring the "creep" funtion of TDS because it was the stupidest thing ever.

There is a creep mode in Metal Age (not sure about Dark Project). It was unbound as a default, for no apparent reason. It isn't broken like Deadly Shadows creep.

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 09:27
yeah, again, thank the stupid devs for that one. I remember jumping up and down to get the right angle for one. What's hillarious is that some items can be taken out of chests before they're unlocked. I stole that special cat statue from the gold smith's chest before I even picked it XD

How did you pick goldsmith chest?:scratch:

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 09:31
There's that goldsmith in auldale who's being randomed by jimmy the knife. His shop has alot of gold inside, and in the chest in his room is a special cat figurine with turquoise eyes or something like that... I right clicked at the chest to pick it open, but instead grabbed the cat idol from it first... I picked it afterwards anyways to not feel like a cheat >_>

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 10:43
Sorry but I can't understand exactly., you didn't use lockpicks? I can't open it with lockpicks, no matter how hard to try. That was a strange lock. Lock circles always turning around each other. I don't know, maybe that was a bug.

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 11:09
if you weren't using your mouse, I don't believe some of the sweet spots were accessible, you needed to use your mouse.

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 13:27
Thanks, I will try.

Aristofiles
15th Jun 2009, 16:19
alot of diffrent doors add to the variaty of the game, pick pocketeble, keyholes, combination locks, no locks at all and so on.... will make the levels more fun and intresting

Belboz
15th Jun 2009, 16:23
lockpicking in tds took you out of game, the guards couldn't see you even if you were standing in bright light and they were looking at you, once you opened the lock you would be put back in game just for the guard to instantly kill you.

for keys they should have a keyring for said keys, and the keys on that keyring should disappear from it if there's no need to return to the level where the keys were found unless they are needed later on.

And there are locks around that cant be picked, the locks in question are usually so deep inside a door that the locks can only be reached via very long keys, and picks cant reach them.

I also think keyholes should go back to where they should be on a door and not where they were in tds, the locks in tds placement seem to just be a convient place for the lockpicking mini game, and rather odd for lock construction in a real world type element.



Creep exist in both thief 1 and 2, dont know about tds it didn't work as far as I know, in thief 1 and 2 there were actualy 4 forward speeds, W, Shift+W, S, Shift+S, but Shift+S is a very slow creep, and the X key was for backwards.

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 18:39
I have a question:how should be vault key mechanisms and security systems?

TheEye
15th Jul 2009, 18:17
for some extra special kind of doors, yes definitely keys
otherwise the lock picks become useless
Balance

xDarknessFallsx
15th Jul 2009, 18:42
I like the unlock door (+ open door/close door) distance. Can more often stealthily open/close them from the shadows. A little closer would be fine and understandable... but I don't want it to be as close as what's required for you to lockpick in T2. For lockpicks, specifically, I don't mind needing to be close like in T2.

Nate
15th Jul 2009, 19:42
For unpickable locks, maybe the devs can make them pickable.....but they would take an insanely long time to pick = makes far more sense to find another way.

Yeah, Garrett should have to get right close to pick a lock....no arguments there.

xDarknessFallsx
15th Jul 2009, 22:14
I don't mind unpickable locks, if they're number of occurrence is rare. Sometimes more creative means to get through doors should be necessary. For example, the door you had to blast thru with the 'sun burst' (or whatever it was called) in Life of the Party(?); the doors that could only be opened with gears in another T2 mission (as indicated above); doors that require a very special key.

Having some unpickable doors promotes exploration and it can also be effectively used as another method for bringing 'some' linearity (must do "A" before "B") to an an otherwise pretty non-linear game (i.e., the gears to open doors in T2).

fayfuya
12th Aug 2009, 23:43
We should be able to pickpocket the keys from the guards if we really have to, and with a harder lockpicking system, without a HUD, we just use the voices of the lock.

Shadow Blade
13th Aug 2009, 09:13
I just had this idea and I was wondering what people would think about it.

Maybe some doors could be magically locked. This could mean that the only way to unlock the door is to steal the sorcerers wand or knock out the sorcerer who is keeping the door locked. The magic user would have to be nearby the door. There could also be a way of Identifying which magic user is locking the door maybe he/she could give off a subtle glow or something like that?

jtr7
13th Aug 2009, 09:20
Something between the Glyph doors, many Keeper locks (Elemental Wards and Talismans, Lost City Key, etc.), and Mage Tower keys, combined with stealing the Necromancer's Wand, performing the Ritual of the Root, placing Rubies on the Woodsie Lord's eyes, reciting the Wallbuilder's Prayer... Yep. Perfectly doable and fitting.

Platinumoxicity
13th Aug 2009, 09:52
Take the plain lockpicking in T1 and T2, and add "dynamic hands". In Far Cry 2 the character had dynamic hands that grabbed things that you wanted to frob by calculating where the object is on the screen and how far it is from the player. This could be used for lockpicking in Thief, where the game calculates where the lock is located on the screen and positions Garrett's hands & picks onto the lock. You need to get to arms reach, and the game doesn't lock the player to the position in front of the door. You can use the "frob" -key (And maybe some other lockipicking-specialized keys) to manipulate the lock, but you can cancel the lockpicking at any moment you wish by simply stepping away from the door or turning around so that the lock is no longer "frob highlighted" -and the dynamic hands let go of the lock.
http://old.filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/183638a3f745f1283884308004292684.PNG (http://old.filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/#183638a3f745f1283884308004292684.PNG)

jtr7
13th Aug 2009, 09:59
Nice! Another doable!


Is there a game where the arms for such an action are actually dynamic and can be moved at the shoulder and elbow from side to side, up and down, as the player maneuvers the body in relation to where the hands are?

Vae
13th Aug 2009, 10:22
This is good. I like the interactive freedom combined with the lock picking animation. Great work as usual Platinumoxity. :)

Shadow Blade
13th Aug 2009, 10:27
I Like the drawings:D

The way Farcry 2 used the characters arms and hands was actually pretty good. You could actually see that your character physically grabbed hold of the ammuntion,health packs, water bottles ect.

Platinumoxicity
13th Aug 2009, 13:18
In Mirror's Edge the dynamic arms were used to create dynamic "wall hugging" where the character physically placed her arms to the wall when you were close enough. Using that kind of wall hugging is not only possible for Thief4, but it should be implemented if wall hugging is a planned feature. the "wall-hugging mode" that was activated by using the "drop item" -key :rolleyes: sucked in TDS.

PJMaybe
13th Aug 2009, 13:57
:thumb: I like those dynamic arms! :thumb:

Hamadriyad
13th Aug 2009, 19:32
Platinum, forgive my ignorance but what are dynamic arms? I've never played mirror's edge or farcry. Is there a video about dynamic arms from those games?

Platinumoxicity
13th Aug 2009, 20:07
Platinum, forgive my ignorance but what are dynamic arms? I've never played mirror's edge or farcry. Is there a video about dynamic arms from those games?

In Far Cry 2, when there is an object in the game world that you can pick up, like a weapon or a water bottle, when the object is on the screen it's highlighted real console like: "Pick up: Water bottle" and if you press the "activate" -key, the character's arm comes out and he picks up the object no matter where it's located on the screen. It seeks the object in the game world dynamically.

In Mirror's Edge when the player get's close enough to a wall to rub a shoulder, the character places her hand on the wall, leans on it -so to speak. It's like a "seamless transition to wall hug mode." -that definetily deserves a place in T4 instead of a wall-hugging mode that needs to be activated by pressing a button.

Hamadriyad
13th Aug 2009, 20:13
I got it, thanks. :)

13LACK13ISHOP
14th Aug 2009, 23:38
Well we are on the subject of doors so I might mention these. We should be able to lean into doors to listen to what is on the other side. Also maybe it would be possible to pinch the idea of looking through locks and keyholes from the hitman series? We should also be able to block doors with chairs, bolt doors and if you press up against a door like you do against a wall you should be able to block it but if its wooden guards can stab through it and damage you. The range on opening doors should be made more realistic and it should have a proper animation. As for locks I say remove the HUD for more immersion but keep it similar to TDS. We could even with the TDS system have to switch between triangle and square picks. I agree that doors should be lockable becouse it adds more interesting gameplay. Some weak doors could be blown up with fire arrows and the like? Wood elementals or wood goleams or whatever they are called should be able to charge strait through weak doors. Some doors should require differant means of opening them such as codes,magic,electronic locks ect.

jtr7
14th Aug 2009, 23:49
Thief adequately provided player feedback for ascertaining the presence of AIs behind doors, and a return of pressing the ear to the door would provide that greater edge. Anything to reduce tension shouldn't be taken way in poor implementation no matter what, so I'd hope they wouldn't add too many ways to gauge what's behind a door. How many ways to interact with a lock do we need? Anyway, I'd like to be able to step away from the lockpicking as instantly as in the older titles, by simply moving, and under no circumstances getting pulled in and aligned automatically. Garrett should continue getting more proficient with it from title to title, so increased efficiency and a return of hassle-free player freedom of movement should come back to any extent they can make it. Switching between picks isn't necessary, just rapid disengagement from the picking action, and not being locked into a single specific position. For increased tension, just add more inextinguishable lighting in some places, and increased lighting that can be doused or switched off, too.

xDarknessFallsx
15th Aug 2009, 03:27
We should be able to lean into doors to listen to what is on the other side.
They already do this. Well, at least T2 does and maybe T1. Not sure about T3.


I had a suggestion for opening doors slowly as well, and only opening them a crack. I basically made any action you used in combination with the creep button a cautious action.
I agree. I've always wished the creep button would let me do things, including open doors and drop items, more quietly than normal.

I hope the default walk speed for Garrett is a pretty slow pace, like T2. Nothing fast. I use Shift to run (go faster than normal speed), and Alt to creep (go slower than normal speed). Works well for me.


Take the plain lockpicking in T1 and T2, and add "dynamic hands".
I'm not really desiring this. I'm okay with seeing lockpicks hover in front of my view, but I bet 90% of the gaming world won't accept such minimlization these days. Since I like to be able to unlock doors from what most would consider "afar" (like T2), then the dynamic hands wouldn't work very well. Many times I am peering from behind a corner wall picking locks, and the hands would look funny as they clip through the wall.

Platinumoxicity
15th Aug 2009, 06:47
I'm not really desiring this. I'm okay with seeing lockpicks hover in front of my view, but I bet 90% of the gaming world won't accept such minimlization these days. Since I like to be able to unlock doors from what most would consider "afar" (like T2), then the dynamic hands wouldn't work very well. Many times I am peering from behind a corner wall picking locks, and the hands would look funny as they clip through the wall.

They wouldn't clip through walls because you could only frob-highlight the lock from a distance where it is possible to pick it.

darkmagicasorseer
15th Aug 2009, 09:42
That could be the "favor" that he owed us for doing the job in the first place. That would also explain why we magically have our picks in the next level.

Basso steals Garrett's lockpicks to persuade him to help save his damsel in distress.

xDarknessFallsx
17th Aug 2009, 00:29
Platinumoxicity -
I had said I like to unlock doors from afar (beyond realistic distance; see T2), so your feature wouldn't work for me. The hands would, indeed, clip through the wall in my scenario where I'm standing back a ways. And even if a 'realistic' pick distance was incorporated to try and prevent the clipping, what would happen if you walked straight up into a wall, looked to your right to see the side or 3/4 view of a doorknob in front of you, and then tried to pick. Either (a) it wouldn't let you because you'd have to be near-directly in front of it (to give you elbow room), or (b) your left arm would clip into the wall because there wouldn't be enough room for it. Of course, they could code the arm animation so the left arm would bump into the wall and drop the elbow down so you could pick it in a contorted sort of manner, or they could preven the lockpicks from working at that angle to force you to stand directly in front of the doorknob... but I'd still just prefer seeing the lockpics only (no arms/hands). It'd be easier for EM to code; there was nothing wrong with the T2 style, imo (I actually like); and the player would have more flexibility to unpick how/where/what angle they want.

Platinumoxicity
17th Aug 2009, 05:42
Platinumoxicity -
I had said I like to unlock doors from afar (beyond realistic distance; see T2), so your feature wouldn't work for me. The hands would, indeed, clip through the wall in my scenario where I'm standing back a ways. And even if a 'realistic' pick distance was incorporated to try and prevent the clipping, what would happen if you walked straight up into a wall, looked to your right to see the side or 3/4 view of a doorknob in front of you, and then tried to pick. Either (a) it wouldn't let you because you'd have to be near-directly in front of it (to give you elbow room), or (b) your left arm would clip into the wall because there wouldn't be enough room for it. Of course, they could code the arm animation so the left arm would bump into the wall and drop the elbow down so you could pick it in a contorted sort of manner, or they could preven the lockpicks from working at that angle to force you to stand directly in front of the doorknob... but I'd still just prefer seeing the lockpics only (no arms/hands). It'd be easier for EM to code; there was nothing wrong with the T2 style, imo (I actually like); and the player would have more flexibility to unpick how/where/what angle they want.

I have nothing against the T2 picking style. I would want the old system to return because the TDS system was way too easy and fast. I'm just throwing around compromises that try to satisfy the old fans as well as the TDS fans. If EM could figure out a way to make the TDS lockpicking more dynamic, it would satisfy the old fans too. ;)

Vae
17th Aug 2009, 06:18
I liked the T2 picking style as well, other than being too easy. I viewed platinum's illustration as way to make things more difficult, and not locking the player into place (which I hate...:mad:). Perhaps an audible mini-game could help add to the difficulty.

xDarknessFallsx
17th Aug 2009, 06:43
I only want T2's style. Nothing more, nothing less. TDS' system wasn't my cup of tea, and it's highly likely that no lockpicking system mini-game beyond T2's will make me happy. T2's is simply perfection for me and to quote theBlackman from the cutscene thread, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." If a TDS'esque lockpicking interaction is implemented, I pray I have the option for a T2 style.

Vae
17th Aug 2009, 07:02
The feel of the T2 lockpicking system is perfect. The reason I mention an audible mini-game is that it is the only way I can think of to keeping you freely immersed (like T2), while adding more challenge and variety. Basically, in effect, a logical evolution of the of the T2 system. Are you telling me that you wouldn't want a more varied range of difficulty in that relatively simple and redundant T2 system? The T2 locking system ain't broke, but it isn't the best it can be.

Hamadriyad
17th Aug 2009, 17:00
If it can be better, it should be.

CerraMorgan
17th Aug 2009, 22:38
Keys do exist in TDS, you just don't have to select them. If you have the right key for a door, it opens automatically. If you don't, you get the lockpicking screen.

I do think it would be nice in T4 if not every single lock was pickable. I don't want to make every mission a keyhunt but sometimes it would be nice to actually have to work for it.

esme
17th Aug 2009, 23:43
in T3 fan missions, it's possible to have a door which cannot be picked open, in which case it rattles when you try it, unless you have the key in which case it opens

and without their glint, which I don't like, keys in T3 are near impossible to spot, especially if they get dropped by a blackjacked AI and there's any kind of ground cover

Hypevosa
18th Aug 2009, 16:06
Take the plain lockpicking in T1 and T2, and add "dynamic hands". In Far Cry 2 the character had dynamic hands that grabbed things that you wanted to frob by calculating where the object is on the screen and how far it is from the player. This could be used for lockpicking in Thief, where the game calculates where the lock is located on the screen and positions Garrett's hands & picks onto the lock. You need to get to arms reach, and the game doesn't lock the player to the position in front of the door. You can use the "frob" -key (And maybe some other lockipicking-specialized keys) to manipulate the lock, but you can cancel the lockpicking at any moment you wish by simply stepping away from the door or turning around so that the lock is no longer "frob highlighted" -and the dynamic hands let go of the lock.
http://old.filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/pics/183638a3f745f1283884308004292684.PNG (http://old.filesmelt.com/Imagehosting/#183638a3f745f1283884308004292684.PNG)

This sounds like it would work perfectly with my environmental interaction thread, where I talked about actually picking up loot instead of just having it instantly disappear. Someone told me it wasn't a reasonable expectation, but someone apparently already made the item seeking code that I said was possible. HA, whoever you were. lol... now I need to go find that thread...

Either way, that's sweet, and I'd love to see it in the game.

Hamadriyad
18th Aug 2009, 17:37
In that way, we should close to loot to steal it. Sounds good to me.

Hamadriyad
23rd Aug 2009, 15:04
Keyring please! To press tab repeatedly to find the right key is very annoying.

Hypevosa
23rd Aug 2009, 18:10
Keyring please! To press tab repeatedly to find the right key is very annoying.

I still think this is too easy though... I liked the old games because, despite a key ring not being explicitly shown, cycling the keys was a way of showing someone going through a keyring and trying each one till they found the one that worked. I LIKED it this way - if I were someone who didn't knock every person in a level out, I can see where this would cause some nice, tense situations, trying to find the right key while a guard is getting ever so close to your location.

My idea in some other thread (can't find it) was to have the key ring hold all the keys, but when you selected it for use the keys on it came up instead. You'd try one, and if it didn't work, it would automatically cycle to the next until you found one that did work. After you found the working key, it would bring up the correct key every time (for that door). This way you can still have some moments where jumbling through your janitor's key ring would be tense, but still allows for player ease of use. If you didn't have a key that worked it would deselect itself automatically as well (and you'd only go through new keys when trying the door again).

(note, this idea is modified somewhat from my original which still made you always cycle through keys, where this one will automatically cycle, as well as automatically use the correct one from then on. Originally I wanted players to cycle through keys still, and when the correct key was used it would change to the first on the key ring - and this way the player still had to remember what key went to what door if they wanted to unlock/relock things. I don't know which is better - making the player remember what key to use, or having Garrett remember (another argument of player control vs controlling the player))

Yaphy
23rd Aug 2009, 18:32
The fallout 3 lockpick system is quite good.

Sebra
23rd Aug 2009, 19:04
No!
No auto useing right key!
Player must know which key he is using!
And _think_ where and when to use it.

Hamadriyad
23rd Aug 2009, 20:04
No!
No auto useing right key!
Player must know which key he is using!
And _think_ where and when to use it.

I see your point but come on, key system in Thief is frustrating! You try to find keys between other items. (letters, mines, potions etc.) At least they should give us another key for keys. They should seperate from other items.
I like Hypevosa's idea by the way.

PJMaybe
23rd Aug 2009, 21:57
I see your point but come on, key system in Thief is frustrating! You try to find keys between other items. (letters, mines, potions etc.) At least they should give us another key for keys. They should seperate from other items.
I like Hypevosa's idea by the way.

I agree it was frustrating sometimes, especially when different keys looked the same. If they had just made them different colours it would have made selection much easier but I really don't want an auto-use for keys. I agree that a hot key for keys would be a good idea though.

Hypevosa
23rd Aug 2009, 22:23
I see your point but come on, key system in Thief is frustrating! You try to find keys between other items. (letters, mines, potions etc.) At least they should give us another key for keys. They should seperate from other items.
I like Hypevosa's idea by the way.

I agree that if my system is not implemented as stated, it would be courteous to at least have all the keys be grouped on the same object and have a quick key to get to it, instead of having to sift through flashbombs potions and everything else you find to get to the keys...

Press F10 for key ring, and then it's a separate "inventory" to tab through than the normal one.

At very least something like that...

ToMegaTherion
24th Aug 2009, 09:09
For reference, are there any other games that require you to select the key and they use it on the door?

Platinumoxicity
24th Aug 2009, 10:29
For reference, are there any other games that require you to select the key and they use it on the door?

Real life? :rolleyes:

Oh, Fallout 1, 2, Tactics, they all required you to "equip" and "use" a key on a door to open it. But they're not completely real-time, so it doesn't matter that it's slow.

Davehall380
24th Aug 2009, 14:11
I think one of the things that the developers wanted to create the most in the original two games were situations that the player had brought about by there own doing. I used an example in a previous thread of the player forcing to decide between exposing himself to a guard or letting the recently dropped, knocked out servant continue on his downward journey into a bath of water (thus drowning and ending the mission).

For me, Keys and Doors represent another set of variables that exists within the game that contribute to the unique experience of each player. The fumbling for the right key whilst being chased, or hearing a guard patrolling ever closer as you pick open a door is priceless.

Thus, I suggest no automatic lockpicking, key recognition etc. If you need animation in front of the player for immersion (like arms), then fair enough (and that will probably come down to the 1st/3rd person arguement again anyway), im not to fussed. But down over complicated a relativley simple system that was perfected from the Assasins level onwards

Sebra
24th Aug 2009, 15:11
I suppose player must think and remember where he took which key from and which door it open.
So never auto use key.
Of course all different keys on map must look differently.

I already suggest key "Next key" which should select next key in cycle. So player can see it and remember (think) would it open whis door? (I'm not english languaged, sorry for grammar).

Alternatively, programmers can make keyring so player use it from items selection, then scroll between keys to select one to use.

If it is possible to use several keys to open lock, I don't want to program Garrett wich key to use.

Secondary
25th Aug 2009, 23:08
the only locks ive ever heard labled as unpickable are digital ones, and thats hopefully not going to happen in Thief 4.

im all for being able to steal keys if you need to go through a door without taking the trouble of picking it, there are practical sides to re-locking doors too. but being uanble to pick a door or open it without keys period...that takes alittle fun out of being a master thief
(plus garret is the one keeper now, what if he can make glyph doors?)

jtr7
25th Aug 2009, 23:17
There are no glyphs, no glyph magic "forever".:hmm:

Vae
25th Aug 2009, 23:41
As it stands, yes. But there could be a story twist to that. Glyph magic could be restored by unknown or unexpected means.

esme
25th Aug 2009, 23:46
the ex keepers have ink, pens and lots and lots of blank parchment now all they need is a prophet and someone to go pick those glowing mushrooms for 'em and hey presto instant prophecies written in a strange incomprehensible language :lol: ;)

jtr7
25th Aug 2009, 23:51
"Forever". I would like that to be generations after TDS, so "forever" would seem to be such for the ex-Keepers and their children.

It opens up a whole new set of possibilities and conflicts that I get excited to think about. Don't forget, there's a lot of magic users and prophets to fill in that storytelling device. There's a lot the ex-Keepers can do with all their non-Glyph skills.


I also think that if the next game takes place too soon after TDS, the whole main plot of the trilogy, Garrett's longing to have his freedom and not have his every step foretold, and the events of TDS would be for naught, a dismissal of everything critical to Garrett's journey and the forces that propelled him against his will and/or to his great distaste, and his victory at the end. I wouldn't want all the corrupt Keepers to get their jobs back. It's too soon if it's not at least a generation later with new blood. So much has yet to be tapped that was all set up already for a natural continuation.


Resurrecting the Glyphs within Garrett's lifetime would be like resurrecting Artemus. It'd be nice to see him again, but...


;)

Vae
26th Aug 2009, 01:48
the ex keepers have ink, pens and lots and lots of blank parchment now all they need is a prophet and someone to go pick those glowing mushrooms for 'em and hey presto instant prophecies written in a strange incomprehensible language :lol: ;)

Glyph magic is an integral part of the Thief Universe by which the Keepers tapped into and utilized. Their particular usage of the magical school of enchantment used for glyph making ran a certain space/time cycle. The universal energetic source of enchantment/glyph magic remains a constant in the Thief Universe, which is why it remains possible for it to reappear, perhaps in unexpected ways. Thus, magical glyphs could be created by mages familiar with enchantment magic. They may not be Keeper glyphs, but magical glyphs nonetheless.

jtr7
26th Aug 2009, 08:42
I wonder who was next in line to become Translator and Interpreter? Any return of the Glyphs will have to be from square one, all unknown. Don't forget that the Keepers needed strict self-discipline to control the Glyphs, not be controlled by them, including in the sense of addiction to the power and strong attraction to Glyphs forbidden, which was one tenet of the Balance they struck. This would mean lots of accidents, some good, many bad, gruesome, fatal. If the first Glyph discovered was an equivalent to the Glyph of Transmutation, they'd be screwed and corrupted right away.

Davehall380
26th Aug 2009, 17:56
I like the idea of the Glyphs have the potential to re-appear. Now that the Keepers are out of the picture, it does open up the possibility of another faction (maybe multiple factions) finding and experimenting, thus shifting the ultimate balance. This opens up the role of Garrett as the-one-true keeper tasked with keeping the balance.

I like the idea of the 'foreign mages sect' becoming involved. They seemed to disappear of the radar after TG, and they seem to be the one faction that hasnt been involved in the storyline proper yet. Just ideas anyway.

Hamadriyad
27th Aug 2009, 11:17
How about doors with mechanical puzzles? If you want to open the door, you should solve the puzzle. But these doors should be rare and special.

Vae
28th Aug 2009, 03:09
How about doors with mechanical puzzles? If you want to open the door, you should solve the puzzle. But these doors should be rare and special.

I like this idea. The Hammerites could have a gear combination puzzle on special doors...mages, magical symbols that need be touched in a certain sequence, etc..

jtr7
28th Aug 2009, 08:21
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1672914#post1672914

Hamadriyad
28th Aug 2009, 11:29
Thanks for the link. Good thread. :)

There are doors at the tower in devil may cry 3. If you turn the wheel, whole tower start to move and door opens to somewhere else. Like Howl's Moving Castle. I think such doors would be fit in crazy places like Constantine's Mansion.

Davehall380
28th Aug 2009, 13:24
Thats a great idea. I can only think of first city bank and trust that required an element of puzzle solving (with the lock in the basement). This was actually quite easy to solve once you havd played through, but it adds a little extra to the experience.

Hamadriyad
3rd Jul 2010, 10:58
I was playing a fm last night. There was a patrolling guard, he had a key, he always locked and unlocked the door while patrolling (which is ridiculous in my opinion). Anyway, I took his key and he could continue to lock/unlock it.
I think guards should notice If their keys are gone (when they decide to use them). So, If we steal a key from a guard, after use that, we should drop his key on somewhere in his patrol area as soon as possible. If we don't, they should be alert.

jtr7
3rd Jul 2010, 11:32
Yep! :cool: :thumb:

Asadar
3rd Jul 2010, 11:39
Nice idea, I agree with you Hamadriyad.

Hypevosa
3rd Jul 2010, 21:37
put em into "search mode" along their entire patrol path. Really they're looking for the key they assume they dropped, but if they find a taffer who stole it... well they still get their key back XD

Nephthys
3rd Jul 2010, 23:56
mm, good plan :]

jtr7
4th Jul 2010, 00:39
Instant tactics. Taking the key would lead to a delayed sort of noisemaker arrow effect, but the AI would only be able to backtrack to the next door they needed the key for, before growing more concerned.

Asadar
4th Jul 2010, 07:10
Move in silence, hand outstretched. Be cloth of the guard. Stay in his shadow. Having to get the key at the right time, without making noise or be seen. Keep calm... and steal it.
And then, away quickly and quietly, to open the door before the guard noticing that he no longer has the key.

At first personnal view, that would be immersive! :thumb:

Not like TDS where the key was teleported in our hands...