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Platinumoxicity
13th Jun 2009, 10:27
Let's say that the City hub is removed and the classic loadout screens are back. Now, how do we give the impression of a large world where the missions take place? Make every mission like the "Life of the Party" in T2. With a huge area outside the mission itself, full of secrets and additional places to visit. "Assassins" had it too except that the city part was just buildings without means of entry, but it still had a surrounding City area. Imagine remaking "Ambush" so that you start from your own aparment and you need to rob the large inn, north of the marketplace, also there are numerous other buildings and homes you can break into.

So, if there is always a new part of town around each mission, the City never gets boring, but each mission introduces a fresh part of the city, and perhaps some classic parts previously seen in T1 ;), or maybe even areas outside the City.
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/480/mapsx.png
P.S The summer home mission would be beautiful and awesome! :D

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 10:47
If I'm going to be taffin around, I'd rather be doing it on purpose than be forced to do it during a mission. I liked life to the party, but once I got to the party, I found it to be small, but only because the part outside the party was so insanely huge. The city was more of life of the party was than the actual party. It would be like having TDS sized levels attached to the city hub if they were all built that way. I'd rather have a hub where the thieve's highway was a quick way from mission A to mission B, than have a forced hub with TDS sized mansions at the end. This way people who want to get from A to B quick can do so, and those who like to loiter on their own time, and do missions when they're AT a mission get to do so

BTW, nice maps...

Herr_Garrett
13th Jun 2009, 11:06
A goodly idea, Platinumoxcity.

Additionally, the last objective of some missions would be to traverse that district of the City and get to the nearest fence - when you enter, the mission's finished, and your loot is sold. You see the cutscene, the next mission loads in, you buy your gear and the mission starts right in front of the shop, just outside of the door.
Not all missions, certainly, but it would a nice change in the more human-city-normal-cat-burglar-oriented missions, like Assassins.

Nothke
13th Jun 2009, 11:43
heh, nice suggestion and drawings, I just wish if they make the city, it should be like in Ambush, lots of streets, back alleys, canals, sewers, market place, and all that in one huge level

BoldEnglishman
13th Jun 2009, 12:27
I was also thinking on similar lines as Platinumoxicity. Having large areas of city to explore before you actually reached your destination would help give a feeling of place and location. Taking this one step further, would be making Garrett actually reach his destination on foot, from outside his house, for each level (a bit like how "The Lost City" started in TDP). Each new level, you would start outside of your house, and then have to reach your destination on foot - opening up a new area of the city each time (and possibly closing off unnecessary areas). It would be interesting to see how the neighborhood develops as the story develops.

Imagine trying to get to the Mages' Towers from your house :S

Nate
13th Jun 2009, 13:43
I like the idea of much bigger/more developed levels insted of a city hub.

ToMegaTherion
13th Jun 2009, 13:50
I suspect that I wouldn't like to do this for every level, but it would be good from time to time, and anyway I don't mind the idea that some missions are big and some missions are small.

Edit: To expand, although Life of the Party is a lot of fun, and Ambush is quite fun too, I think if these ideas were repeated too much it would get a bit boring. The thing about these missions is that they are of the "sprawling adventure" types instead of the inside-a-building missions. I find the latter more fun; while they might be smaller in area and scope, they can seem larger because there are more connections between everything. The first part of Life of the Party is just a sequence of independent encounters. I think these sorts of levels are harder to design well, and so we shouldn't force too many of them.

Flashart
13th Jun 2009, 15:00
I originally thought the idea of a city hub was the game wouldn't "end" after the last mission. There would be something extra to do. What I'm going to suggest might not be possible and may turn out to be very laborious. What if the city had "spawnable, generic mini-missions" in one building that change every so often? So you'd have something (slightly) new every time you went back to the city.
Failing that I like the "big mission idea", but howabout being able to return to the "wider area" but not the final destination once it has been completed. That way you could "unlock" the city in say, 4 parts.

xDarknessFallsx
13th Jun 2009, 19:08
If you're saying no city hub idea whatsoever, Platinumoxicity, but to instead flesh out some levels by having areas outside the main mansion you're thieving then yes, of course that sounds nice. This would be like in T2, right? T2 had a nice mix of 'extra areas' like this, but could've been done on more levels. I don't think I'd want it as extensive as you're dreaming of, but maybe something in-between, yet closer to T2.

I wouldn't want this going too overboard because then you're just exploring areas for the point of exploring areas, and it would get pointless and tiresome after a while if overdone.

I'm not sure if you're saying each mission's map would then butt up against the next mission's map, but if so... I'm not down with that. I personally prefer each level being completely separate and independent of each other in terms of location. Autonomous. I don't want to know where they are in relation to each other. Having this context in TDS was one reason I didn't like the City Hub (aside from the fact it was boring, repetitious and you couldn't skip levels very easily). I like my world to be more abstract. I don't want or need to see that "Mission A" is two corners west of "Mission B".. and that the Pagan Village mission is a stone's throw from the clock tower mission. The universe seems larger and more mysterious to me when each mission is it's own module. I just don't want to see and know everything about the universe... leave some to the imagination.

DarthEnder
13th Jun 2009, 19:16
I agree. All those missions should have at the least the surrounding neighborhood included in the level.

I always liked for example, rummaging through the houses across the street from the Truart estate.

Or the bar outside Shoalsgate Station. :p

Platinumoxicity
13th Jun 2009, 21:27
I'm not sure if you're saying each mission's map would then butt up against the next mission's map, but if so... I'm not down with that. I personally prefer each level being completely separate and independent of each other in terms of location. Autonomous. I don't want to know where they are in relation to each other. Having this context in TDS was one reason I didn't like the City Hub (aside from the fact it was boring, repetitious and you couldn't skip levels very easily). I like my world to be more abstract. I don't want or need to see that "Mission A" is two corners west of "Mission B".. and that the Pagan Village mission is a stone's throw from the clock tower mission. The universe seems larger and more mysterious to me when each mission is it's own module. I just don't want to see and know everything about the universe... leave some to the imagination.

I didn't mean that. I meant that those huge T2 levels with a significant outside area around them with lots of places to visit and secrets to be found. You could observe your target building from the rooftops of buildings next to it and in that "summer home" example, you could go to the fisherman's peninsula and zoom in to the cabin to scout for guards etc.

jtr7
13th Jun 2009, 21:36
What's wrong with designing city sections like a real city, where each district has the means for self-sustaining, but with a few large marketplaces for bulk and and import/export items? Provide for each mission without having to have Garrett travel from section to section to make a purchase he needs sections away.

LightWarriorK
14th Jun 2009, 00:27
I don't know.... probably the most frustrating parts of Thief to me were the parts in the city (in all three games) where the devs just said "yeah, we're not making any more, so you can't go any further."

I'm not saying I want a limitless city, but rather I don't like having a taste of freedom but it be artificially constrained. Like in TMA when you couldn't go into the graveyard the first time you were in the city, but the gates were up the second time.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but personally I'd almost rather have a fully-built city or no city at all except for certain missions, unless they can figure a way to restrict the level environment without making it seem fake like amusement park theming.

LordGervasius
14th Jun 2009, 00:47
I think that if there was more....well, thievery... in thief it would be good. City levels need open room to sneak around. While I find Its fun hiding in the shadows and casing a huge ominous castle gate looking to the eaves for wood beams or watching when for the just right moment when the security's back is turned, its even better when the city rooftops are all dark and you can sneak around with impunity. Thats my .02. Making a level with 8 different objectives and having 1 of them be to snag loot while doing the other 7 does not a great thief level make. The thievery is the draw.

Belboz
14th Jun 2009, 01:29
the problem with hubs is that the size of the map for a mission isn't the same size as the area in the hub, it makes the hub seem a really strange place. eg t3 stonemarket proper, why is there a passageway under the hammerite church, by reasoning, that passageway wouldn't be there, the massive foundations and crypts of the church would be there.

jtr7
14th Jun 2009, 01:31
Tying all the city sections together will make for a tiny city again. The old style took us out beyond the city, and all over, leaving plenty of places to explore later. The missions were spread out over a year, so there was no wandering around being a petty thief, and long boring walks that compelled the player to amuse themselves to break up the boredom. It was story-centric, not everyday thieving all the time. There's no reason for the city sections to be totally enclosed now, and that's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for cohesion to the plot and not a lot of unnecessary time ignoring the objectives. It makes sense that at night a fortified city with walls and gates would be closed to traffic without stating one's business. Too free-form and the game is no longer Thief, but there should be more fleshing-out per mission. It makes sense that one night has different activities than another. The cemetery was open the second time because it was weeks later and that's where the Pagan courier came from. He literally starts from the cemetery in that mission and walks all the way to get the letter. I welcome that kind of realism.

Breaking into a warehouse for easy pickings was beneath Garrett in TMA--and I agree--and constantly trying to empty the city of loot all night long is not something I as a player want, nor should Garrett.

xDarknessFallsx
14th Jun 2009, 08:12
Good call jtr7. That's exactly what I mean; and I hadn't yet gone into the time aspect, but you're right.

The game feels bigger when it's not tied down into a city map that you zoom in/out on and traverse across. I like the feeling as though you're in one part of the world for one mission, then a completely separate part of the world in another one. When using a city hub'ish design, everything seems too close together. The world all the sudden feels like a city block.

The feeling of time (days, months, years) passing is more palpable when having independent missions.. One job could be this week, the next job might not be for 3 months later. I don't want it to feel like you're playing over the course of "3 days, Thief time." I want it spread out over a year or two. Give the game time to unfold. I want to feel time changes by way of season changes, weather changes, etc. All of this feels more powerful when not tied down to a city hub that serves as your base. Having individual missions allows the imagination to feel a sense of belonging in the world because you live there for a year and see so many parts of the world. And I much prefer that feeling.

Platinumoxicity
14th Jun 2009, 09:04
The world all the sudden feels like a city block.


It was actually smaller than a city block. The entire city area in TDS is smaller than Angelwatch. And as a pretty good comparison, Angelwatch was less than 1/5 of the LEVEL that it was in.

So there was a mission, in the mission was a tower that was about 1/5 of the size of the level itself, and the entire City of TDS could have been placed inside that building without touching the outside walls.

That is the difference between the size of the levels in mod.Unreal2 engine on xbox (2004) and the size of levels in Dark engine on PC (2000).

Flashart
14th Jun 2009, 12:38
I realize this isn't exactly the theme of this thread, nor is this my favoured option, howabout the loadout screen is actually a huge map of the city?
Have it tabbed to take you to a fence, a shop, a church, a noticeboard, and Garrett's house.
So you sell your loot, stock up on equipment, check out any rumours, then go home to organize your kit.
The map serves a the mission "start" screen and takes you to the briefing. Then each mission starts along 1 highway so you get a rooftop highway/sewer before the mission starts. If there were 4 highways with 4 missions in each would that be good enough? Each highway unlocks as the game progresses. This means that after finishing the game you'd have a 4 way rooftop highway that permanently exists.
The huge starting map could also be the way of highlighting where FM's begin

Herr_Garrett
14th Jun 2009, 13:45
The feeling of time (days, months, years) passing is more palpable when having independent missions.. One job could be this week, the next job might not be for 3 months later. I don't want it to feel like you're playing over the course of "3 days, Thief time." I want it spread out over a year or two. Give the game time to unfold. I want to feel time changes by way of season changes, weather changes, etc. All of this feels more powerful when not tied down to a city hub that serves as your base. Having individual missions allows the imagination to feel a sense of belonging in the world because you live there for a year and see so many parts of the world. And I much prefer that feeling.

I think the phases of the Moon changed during MA.

Aristofiles
14th Jun 2009, 13:51
1. G is no ordinary burglar. He is a pro and only hits big targets. It always feelt kinda wierd stealing everything you saw in T3.

2. T3 destroyed so much of the game spirit. Thay stole all of Gs mystic feeling. Thay killed of the awsome videos and thay smashed my ide of the city. Lets hope T4 reclaim someof that carm.

the game should be made simple and well!

Yotun
14th Jun 2009, 14:57
I like this idea a lot. And I vastly prefer it to having a city hub. But I would say, make sure that once you do reach the objective building/area, that that is also just as large as the original missions - so perhaps levels now could be twice as large as those in the original games, or even larger. I would seriously and honestly NOT mind that at all... imagine having both cathedral levels from TDP tied to each other...

This though perhaps should not be used in all missions. Some missions should avoid the section of approaching the objective from the city - and just make even LARGER central areas for you.

xDarknessFallsx
14th Jun 2009, 16:11
I was playing Life of the Party last night, and it really is amazing how your journey takes you through the town, and little side and secret areas long before you get to your final destinatin. It's all just part of the T2 journey, and I love it. So, yes, having more missions like this in Th4f would be great, Platinumoxicity.

I just hope the devs don't find it necessary to link all the missions together via a city hub. Or to consistently show us sneakpeeks of the "next areas/missions to come" through iron fences and over rooftops.

New Horizon has my feelings spot on.

I want Thief to feel like a Thief 'world' or 'universe' again, like it did in TDP/TMA -- not a 'city'.

huzi73
15th Jun 2009, 10:55
I got an idea! How 'bout a big city, as well as a different part of the city enclosed within the level, like life of the party style? Hardly possible, but would be cool though...

Platinumoxicity
15th Jun 2009, 12:26
I know many people including me are strictly agains dynamic day/night cycle, but how about something in between,? Like in Crysis, where you start the level in sunset, you are pretty far from your target area, and you can view the level from the high point or something and see a beautiful vista. When you start making your way to your target, the sun starts setting until it's night and it stays that way, so you can do your job. I think that would be cool.
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1475/compr.png

Hypevosa
15th Jun 2009, 12:35
not a bad idea at all.

xDarknessFallsx
15th Jun 2009, 16:19
I like this idea for a level or two. It was mentioned in another thread as something I'd like to see (start in twilight/sunset, then go to dark), but seeing the visual may help more be okay with the idea. I think it'd be cool. Good job on the art if you did that...

Platinumoxicity
15th Jun 2009, 16:52
Yep I did. With MS Paint. :D

Herr_Garrett
15th Jun 2009, 17:59
Yep I did. With MS Paint. :D

As sweet as the sirens' song! :)

Fire_Is_Born
15th Jun 2009, 19:03
I personally loved exploring the city hub in TDS, simply because it added continuity to the gameplay: Garrett has to get from one mission to another somehow, he can't just teleport!
Also there were a few side quests in TDS, in various parts of the city. I'd like to see those return, but in a bigger way, (think Oblivion style side quests,) and for that the city hub would have to return.

jtr7
15th Jun 2009, 19:18
"Garrett has to get from one mission to another somehow, he can't just teleport!"

Ah, but he did teleport. Most of the city sections were not directly connected, and in fact were often separated by the distance of several city sections. The whole TDS city was hub-sized compared to the older titles. The continuity of the gameplay was necessary in TDS because it all took place in 9 consecutive days in only the heart of the city.

In the older titles the missions were spread apart by weeks and months and miles.

Platinumoxicity
15th Jun 2009, 19:24
I personally loved exploring the city hub in TDS, simply because it added continuity to the gameplay: Garrett has to get from one mission to another somehow, he can't just teleport!
Also there were a few side quests in TDS, in various parts of the city. I'd like to see those return, but in a bigger way, (think Oblivion style side quests,) and for that the city hub would have to return.

How do you make Garrett go on a mission outside the city, like Cragscleft was back in TDP? TDS City hub jammed every mission inside a 1 square kilometer area (Except Overlook) and everything was way too close together. Like when you went a bit further from your backyard and you were suddenly in a derelict wild zone full of monsters and forest bums. If there is going to be a City hub, Garrett should be able to visit there between missions but making him go "to the location" of the mission doesn't really add anything to the gameplay, and it makes the "routes" to more distant missions hard to make.

And there could be some side jobs in the City hub if there's going to be one. Not side "quests" as you refer them to. Garrett doesn't do quests. Quest is something where an old bearded guy tells you to go kill 9 rabbits and bring him their skins. Garrett does jobs, which could be like, he reads, eavesdrops or overhears about some valuables in a certain place, and then he can go steal them. No witnesses, no trust.

jtr7
15th Jun 2009, 19:46
The games had bonus objectives as a superior form of side-quest, which just added to the exploration of a level. If The City is expanded, then there could easily be more of these (except for having to make custom objects and write more texts). I love when Thief does not play like so many other games.

Platinumoxicity
15th Jun 2009, 19:49
The one mistake that the devs should NEVER make is make a complete map of the City that shows the city limits. As long as we don't know how large the City is, it's vast beyond imagination.

kaekaelyn
15th Jun 2009, 20:05
If we want some idea of how big the City is, just think about how important it is. Enemy factions battle it out there. A secret society has dedicated itself to the City's balance and welfare. Ancient ruins lie beneath the surface. Great powers rise and fall--even gods have lived and died there. Holy wars take place. Prophecies are fulfilled, and even "ages" can be said to come and pass within its walls. In many ways, it seems to be a nation, or a world in and of itself.

The City is not like my city. It's not like any city on Earth. It's something very special, very mysterious, and judging from its obvious significance, something very, very big.

jtr7
15th Jun 2009, 20:56
Yes, and it's a crazy and wonderful amalgam of a thousand different things, many of which are usually contradictory or unrelated at all, but here, it works, and it transcends.

xDarknessFallsx
16th Jun 2009, 00:25
If we want some idea of how big the City is, just think about how important it is. Enemy factions battle it out there. A secret society has dedicated itself to the City's balance and welfare. Ancient ruins lie beneath the surface. Great powers rise and fall--even gods have lived and died there. Holy wars take place. Prophecies are fulfilled, and even "ages" can be said to come and pass within its walls. In many ways, it seems to be a nation, or a world in and of itself.

Yes, and isn't it amazing all this takes place in a city block? :scratch: (a reference to TDS, of course)

I hated feeling in TDS that the pagans were in my backyard, the keepers were in my front yard, a harbour was in my side yard, and an overlook manse was in my other side yard. Whatever. City hubs and maps showing the entire area of the game are just wrong.

citywolfdreams
16th Jun 2009, 05:44
Yes, and isn't it amazing all this takes place in a city block? :scratch: (a reference to TDS, of course)

I hated feeling in TDS that the pagans were in my backyard, the keepers were in my front yard, a harbour was in my side yard, and an overlook manse was in my other side yard. Whatever. City hubs and maps showing the entire area of the game are just wrong.

Complete and Total Agreement!

"What happens when we take 5 Hammers, 5 Pagans, and force them to live in the same neighborhood for a month? This is the true story of 10 strangers... picked to live in the same city-hub zone, and have their lives taped... to find out what happens when people stop being polite... and start Getting Real. The Real World."

Nate
16th Jun 2009, 05:52
Hehe! Remember in Thief 2 how Karas was going to bring destruction and death to the city...all 2 blocks of it along with it's entire 100 inhabitants.

I gotta say, the City Hub from TDS really took the epicness out of the Thief Metal Age story for me.

esme
16th Jun 2009, 13:01
TMA : First City Bank and Trust did actually pay attention to the passage of time, if you were patient enough the vault time lock would open on it's own, it took about 8 hours real time tho

wasn't really a day/night cycle tho

LordGervasius
21st Jun 2009, 17:25
I think the only way a hub will work is if it is HUGE and filled with tons of hidden stuff. That becomes the world basically. It would be cool to see it have a realistic look. Maybe adding some outskirts of town or rural areas would be cool. Exploring till you hit a brick wall gets old.

It would be very cool to see a greater degree of non-linear missions to thief. Make multiple sections open at once with some areas being vastly too difficult for garrett too access from the beginning without loot to buy good gear. This will make it so that all level of players will enjoy it and give it replayability

LordGervasius
21st Jun 2009, 17:26
The vault opened by itself?

Are you serious? I never played that mission for 8 hours before.

Flashart
22nd Jun 2009, 06:45
I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this discussion, but here goes...
If we assume that Game Devs can do the "large area maps" (Oblivion etc). Then what is it that people actually want?
A perpetual world, populated, day/night, every house explorable, with "in-level" missions (no-loading screen) etc?
Or, a place to return between missions, shop, and launch missions from? (Sort of TDS without the load-zones, although "Far Cry 2" might be a better example)
Or, a series of "tabbed" static screens, shop, stats, maps etc to launch missions from?
Or, something else...?

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 07:02
It's crazy to think that one mission the size of four TMA missions (with one big TMA mission alone being bigger than all of TDS)--with more access to buildings, rooms, grounds, sewers, and having more detail in every space, more objects and people in general--would not be sufficient for many here. Even multiplying "just" that huge piece of City by 15 missions...would not suffice. To build all that alone in less than 2.5 years with a modest team would be a triumph. Compared to many here, I'm not asking much. Each huge mission containing all a taffer needs and more somehow is not enough.

kaekaelyn
22nd Jun 2009, 07:27
I've made up my mind on this 100% now. I don't care how well it's done; open city environments/city hubs kill my perception of the City. Knowing how to get from Auldale to Stonemarket Proper is akin to learning how a magic trick is done. It's just...not mysterious or significant anymore.

CaptainObvious
22nd Jun 2009, 08:13
The City hub was a good idea, just constrainted by the engine. It gave a sense of continuity to the gameplay and gave you the feeling that there's more out there. Though in TDS it was merely adequate and served the intended purpose, but it wasn't really a fun addition because of the constraints in level size. Things felt cramped and small. However, with the new game I doubt it's going to be affected as hard by crossplatform constraints, so it's entierely possible to have a better, bigger hub area withouzt loading zones every few meters.

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 08:24
The point is, there doesn't even need to be a hub at all when what you need is found elsewhere, naturally.

simlan
22nd Jun 2009, 10:17
for me it was all about all the possibilities and ways of breaking and entering that makes things like this good

fayfuya
22nd Jun 2009, 10:28
I prefer a city, with 80% of the time is night and 20% of the time is day, something like that.
I want to be able to break into any house, and to many other places, have much more access to the rooftops, i would like a river that we can swim in, and, as it was at the end of TDS, the Hammerites and the Pagans faught each other, it was beautiful, i would like to see that sometimes, but the Faction changed too fast, i stole the Builder's Chalice from the hammers, and to make the forgive me i just need to kill few rustmites....and i really really would like to get some side missions from the Hammerites and Pagans.
But plz, no "quick launch mission button" it just too lame, we should be able to walk in the city to where the mission is located and start it.
And, in TDS we weren't always in missions but we still had objectives, for example, after we stole the bloodline opal and went to heartless perry, he told us he can't buy and that we should deal with Lady Elizabeth and her thugs and head to Stonemarket proper, it wasn't a mission, but it was still in objective, i liked that thing, and i want a better apartment for Garrett!!

Platinumoxicity
22nd Jun 2009, 10:41
But plz, no "quick launch mission button" it just too lame, we should be able to walk in the city to where the mission is located and start it.


This eliminates the possibility to have missions that are located very far, on the other side of the City, for example, or outside the City. In TDS's City hub the distance between the farthest missions apart is about 800m. In Thief 1 it could've been 30 miles, the distance from Cragscleft to the Mages' Towers for example. If the missions are separate but with a lot of outside area in them, it keeps intact the vastness of the City and doesn't make it look like 1 city block like in TDS.

When I saw the first pictures, in the early 21st century, of the pagan sanctuary and Garrett sitting in the bushes, ready to shoot I thought: "Wow, I wonder how the woods outside the City will look like in modern graphics. It's going to be awesome." And then, in 2003. Dissapointment. The pagan sanctuary was located in the back yard of my apartment. And the pagans were living in steelsey, bricksey manfool houses. How lame was that?

Flashart
22nd Jun 2009, 10:46
If a city hub is used, I'd suggest it should be of a comparable size to the missions within T4. That way it would be akin to making just one extra level. Populate it (TDS style, guards, traders etc) but have houses (become pickable) as the game progresses. That way you can't explore the whole lot in one go, or you may want to wait till the game has been completed. Return to it, between missions or in 4 chapters, I don't mind which.
If it is to be returned to I'd suggest it should have randomized guards/loot to keep it a little bit fresh.
Maybe have the initial section as a "neutral zone" with shops and a means to initialize missions (A map, perhaps?)
I suppose you could view it as a "reward" for completing the game that you get the city to runaround in.
I still remain undecided about all of this. I don't see the hub issue as a "resource drain", most games nowadays get "co-op" or somesuch, so there's an argument to be had that says the "hub" is Thief's version of this. But I do think that if you ignored the loading zones TDS did the hub thing as asked for, and it can't be regarded as a great success.
Just a thought, but are people actually saying "We want a city hub, (if we can't have an editor)"

ToMegaTherion
22nd Jun 2009, 10:51
Just making the hub bigger and better and without loading zones doesn't address the fundamental problem that the hub screws up the equipment and loot system, that was quite beautiful in the first two games and quite horrible in Deadly Shadows.

CaptainObvious
22nd Jun 2009, 10:53
It didn't screw up the equipment system, it had a different one. Thats a difference. It got unbalanced near the end but it wasn't broken.

esme
22nd Jun 2009, 12:12
The vault opened by itself?

Are you serious? I never played that mission for 8 hours before.

ah wuz bawn serious :cool:

have a look at the spoiler in the third post on this link (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13808)

and here (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61025)

and again here (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12745)

there are other references to it but I'll let you have a look for them ;)

Hypevosa
22nd Jun 2009, 20:41
Just making the hub bigger and better and without loading zones doesn't address the fundamental problem that the hub screws up the equipment and loot system, that was quite beautiful in the first two games and quite horrible in Deadly Shadows.

They just felt like the conservative should be rewarded, their problem was not necessarily that you had 40 grand if you were someone who collected all the loot, their problem was there was an INFINITE supply of supplies. There was free equipment that would respawn constantly, and each store never ran out of ANYTHING. Now this is something that appeals to some because of the convenience, but it came at the cost of challenge because it was TOO convenient. What would have been better would be that each store had a certain amount of stock each day, and not all of the same stuff... so you could visit 3 of the stores and not one had the item you wanted, but that last one did... things like that. If the stores had limited stock, and not all of the items... and if elemental crystals didn't respawn every damn day, then the game's equipment system wouldn't have been so broken, and those who bothered to get more than just the loot req would still be rewarded by having the ability to buy what they want, but not necessarily restock all their equipment to maximum capacity.

ToMegaTherion
22nd Jun 2009, 20:45
There is no way for persistent equipment to be tailored to particular missions with the elegance seen in the previous games.

Platinumoxicity
22nd Jun 2009, 20:48
They just felt like the conservative should be rewarded, their problem was not necessarily that you had 40 grand if you were someone who collected all the loot, their problem was there was an INFINITE supply of supplies. There was free equipment that would respawn constantly, and each store never ran out of ANYTHING. Now this is something that appeals to some because of the convenience, but it came at the cost of challenge because it was TOO convenient. What would have been better would be that each store had a certain amount of stock each day, and not all of the same stuff... so you could visit 3 of the stores and not one had the item you wanted, but that last one did... things like that. If the stores had limited stock, and not all of the items... and if elemental crystals didn't respawn every damn day, then the game's equipment system wouldn't have been so broken, and those who bothered to get more than just the loot req would still be rewarded by having the ability to buy what they want, but not necessarily restock all their equipment to maximum capacity.

But wealthy players could still buy everything that's on sale, even if it wouldn't restock their equipment to full. In T1 and T2 the shops had limited variety of items but you still couldn't afford all of them because you couldn't save loot from previous missions.

Hypevosa
22nd Jun 2009, 21:18
But wealthy players could still buy everything that's on sale, even if it wouldn't restock their equipment to full. In T1 and T2 the shops had limited variety of items but you still couldn't afford all of them because you couldn't save loot from previous missions.

And what's wrong with being able to purchase everything on sale, especially if equipment won't carry over? I feel that a person who bothers to search for all the loot they can find deserves to keep said loot. In the old games the amount of things you could buy was normally extremely limited until the last few levels. I don't mind having extremely limited supplies. Not only would it make sense since if the city watch saw them getting crates of flashbombs they'd be investigated and put out of business, but it would make for better gameplay... gameplay like the old games. The thing is, even in the old games if you bought nearly everything in the store, you never would end up using it all (or at least I didn't).

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 21:27
Again, why would Garrett hoard the money all year long, and not spend it on living and other smaller adventures that aren't plot specific? A call for realism!

Hypevosa
22nd Jun 2009, 21:37
I'm not saying he shouldn't spend any of his money for living, but that it needs to be a more consistant amount than the measly, and usually odd number of gold pieces he has after shopping. Like doomy said a while back, it doesn't make sense that he manages to spend the 2000 gold I didn't spend, or that he manages to live off the 2 gold that I leave, after I'm done shopping for my next mission. Not to mention if I'm shopping for my next mission, whatever his living expenses are should already be deducted.

"It's been 2 weeks since my last job... information has not been forth coming...."

So you deduct my living expenses for 2 weeks from my loot before I enter the mission (14X 6 gold=64 gold) and the cost of the information (X gold deducted based on difficulty). then I go to the menu screen and based on the info decide what I need for the job. I have 687 gold left over. I start the next mission, and there's already a purse in my loot with 687 gold in it. that would be more realistic.

Terr
22nd Jun 2009, 21:53
Give each mission (on any difficulty) a "required amount of loot for living". Everything past that can be used for more equipment ;)

Garret! Thief. Keeper. Hero. Certified Public Accountant.

jtr7
22nd Jun 2009, 22:42
Yes. I keep saying that. Thank you. The numbers compensate for everything, so there is never a lack except to encourage thoughtful purchases, and the missions more than make up for any lack. There are no bad restrictions, it's all in the head.

Flashart
23rd Jun 2009, 08:30
I've mentioned in another thread, limit the gold in each level, have extra loot, but gold is all Garrett can spend in shops, so you won't be dealing with vast quantities. You could carry it over, or not it wouldn't matter. Limit the amount (not weight) of gear Garrett can carry, and there is your equation for each mission. If there's a perpetual world or respawning items or whatever, once his inventory is full, that's it. Just assume his "living costs" get taken out of the rest of the fenced goods.

esme
23rd Jun 2009, 10:32
on the other hand if Garrett pays anyone any amount for living costs, what stops him stealing it back later ?

in TDS he stole anything that wasn't nailed down in the other lodgers rooms including the managers room along with the protection money the landlord left in the sewer for the extortioners, technically his rent was in there somewhere

I was rather hoping Garrett would take the protection money a few times and come home to find his lodgings burnt down

Scopeh
25th Jun 2009, 20:30
I would like a mix of linear instanced levels and a HUGE GTA esque city, picking up missions oblivion style. This way we can get the rich, instanced levels with an intricate story line but then the freedom to wander off and explore a vast city, find extra quest givers, initiate secondary story lines etc. That was the original idea in T3, but it was sadly castrated due to the fact console hardware at the time wouldn't be able to handle it. I was not fond of constantly having to switch to a handfull of small city area's, but now consoles can stream data better (again in the same vain as oblivion), I think the idea would work, especially with a day/night and weather cycle.

Obviously a day/night cycle would alter the shadows based around sun/moon position, it would have to be quite slow though and not much quicker than real-time otherwise those shadows would be moving quicker than you are! (using a wait system of course could pass hours instantly, and I know I am borrowing heavilly from oblivion!). Again weather could decrease visibility with things like Fog, snow (possibly a hinderence?), or heavy rain. Lightning would be fun if you were standing in a shadow right by a guard and the area lit up revealing you.
With a system like this you would have to be on your toes and adapt rather than learn all the shadows and get comfy taking the same route time after time.

Being able to stalk a person and learn thier daily cycle, robbing them while they get smashed at the tavern would be quite fun. Pick your targets, during the day and try get em all in one night. It would be fab for any freestyle taffer.

LordGervasius
27th Jun 2009, 17:41
scopeh has some great ideas.

Acorn
27th Jun 2009, 18:36
Rather than a hub with loadable zones just have one big city like its its own mission. So when you're out and about you discover things or witness or over hear something that lead to large or small missions which you can chose to follow up now or not by following the information.
The old mission briefings are fun. The way to combine these is maybe to have in-game links related to your mission.

Like a coach about to leave town. To pursue your mission you need to buy a ticket and board the coach with your contact. Go about town finishing up your business and then board the coach when you're ready and it starts the mission briefing movie. You learn about the area you're going to and people involved from this contact that of course you barely trust, and go over the mission itself.

Or you are told you need to be somewhere tomorrow night when the item you are after is in a known location. So you have the rest of the day/night to go about town collecting gold and equipping up. Go home and go to bed, briefing starts like you've slept already and its the next night.

Or you witness something and that cutscene starts a sort of briefing where Garrett talks about what is happening and then says "I'd better go to area X right now and get item y" and the mission starts.

If one mission gives you clues to another you could have to continue right from that mission to the next though.

jtr7
27th Jun 2009, 19:59
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