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theBlackman
10th Jun 2009, 22:14
What does Garrett really need?

He needs RUN, WALK, RETREAT, LEAN R/L/F, CROUCH, STAND, JUMP.

He has that. Smoother controls could be implemented, but the current set works.

Equipment:
A bow. The one he has works fine if you learn how to use it. No upgrade needed.

Arrows:
Broadheads. Useful for distracting AI, testing surfaces, exploding mines, and of course, Killing beasties. No improvement needed.

Water arrows. Useful for putting out flame, cleaning up the crime scene. And, with a blessing of holy water, useful for the extermination of undead. No improvement needed.

Moss arrows. Almost useful. Nice for carpeting tile, stone, and marble for clumsy thieves. No improvement needed.

Noisemakers. Not a necessity as a broadhead can substitute. But, recoverable and handy. No improvement needed.

Fire arrows. Handy for exploding powder barrels, doing in some undead, relighting fires and torches. No improvement needed.

Gas arrows. Handy for removing AI without killing. Not really an absolute necessity, but very useful in some situations. No improvement needed.

Rope arrows. Nearly indispensible. Handy for reaching difficult areas; bypassing the anticipated route of travel; can be used in place of broadheads against enemies. Allow the player to use imaginative solutions to some problems. No improvement needed.

Miscellaneous tools:

Lock picks. Fine as portrayed and used.

Mines:
Explosive. No improvement needed.
Gas. No improvement needed.

Mines are retrievable if not exploded. The system as it is needs no improvement, including visibility. The should be small, hard to see and no more powerful than at present.

Miscellaneous:
Flash bombs. OK, but should not effect Garrett's vision. The reasoning on that is, he knows he is using it and would shield his eyes from the blast. What idiot would knowingly blind himself in the midst of a bunch of enemies. OH! I forgot. The idiot that put that in TDS.

Scouting Orb. A bit on the "Huh?" side, but ties in with the Mech Eye that Garrett has, and the loosely defined science of the era.

Flares. Handy in dark corners, and to explode powder barrels.

Major upgrades in these would really be overkill.

Potions:
Speed
Health
Slo-fall
Invisibility (never did like this one, but it's ok)

All are fine with the current limitations in length of efficacy. No improvement or changes needed.

Hand Weapons:
Blackjack. Fine as is.

Sword. Also fine as is. A useful tool for bashing doors, cutting various things and bashing down obstacles.
Obviously, a killing device if you choose.

Again, no improvement is needed with either of the above.

Hello? It seems that Garrett has everything he needs. The player just needs to LEARN to use them to the best advantage.

What Garrett really needs, is for the textures, and structures to be well designed and implemented with consistancy.

No phony obstacles to prevent the player from exploring (or dieing), such as a three foot wall you can mantle or jump to or over in one place and a similar wall that acts like it is a hundred feet high.

Garrett needs to be able to jump ACROSS as well as UP.

The game needs a good plot (time in Garrett's history of no consequence) and could be a series of individual ventures not necessarily a major campaign against a "BIG BOSS" or conspiracy.

Note I said COULD BE. The game also needs to recapture, as much as possible, the original tension and immersion that was there in TDP and TMA.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 22:26
Flash bombs. OK, but should not effect Garrett's vision. The reasoning on that is, he knows he is using it and would shield his eyes from the blast. What idiot would knowingly blind himself in the midst of a bunch of enemies. OH! I forgot. The idiot that put that in TDS.

[...]

Hand Weapons:
Blackjack. Fine as is.

Sword. Also fine as is. A useful tool for bashing doors, cutting various things and bashing down obstacles.
Obviously, a killing device if you choose.

Again, no improvement is needed with either of the above.


While I agree with nearly everything you said, I noticed an error. In the first 2 games Garrett was effected by his own flashbombs, because you were supposed to be Garrett, and if you looked away before it went off he would be unaffected (something I only perfected while playing the second game). In TDS the flashbombs have no effect on him, even if you throw one at your feet and stare straight at it. I think they were better when they could blind you because you had to have enough trust in your throw to look away, and then look back if you wanted to double check it had the desired effect. It also meant that if you were in a tense situation and had to throw one near yourself in order to stop the guards from attacking, you had to escape a little blind, which I found to be kind of fun. Whether or not it should effect his vision is a debate of the player controlling what Garrett does, vs Garrett controlling himself. Some situations demand one or the other.

I see you ignored the dagger completely in your list of weapons, and while I agree that for fighting purposes the sword is vastly superior as the combat is engaging and fun, the dagger could serve much better as a tool, and open many possibilities for the developers if used as such. (A quick jimmy for doors if you're in a hurry, cutting out paintings from their frames, prying gems out of statues, etc.)

And one thing I think needs to be improved movement wise is his ability to mantle consistently. unlike in all 3 previous games where mantling was on-off whether it would work or not.

Other than that, I'd say the game doesn't NEED anything else, everything else is just extra trimmings.

theBlackman
10th Jun 2009, 22:29
I referred to what he HAS not what he MIGHT have.

As for the Flashbomb. Yes, but you were told to LOOK AWAY. And as Garrett has that ability in the games, you did and did not get blinded. But in TDS it makes no difference, or at least, I've not been able to not be blinded, even turning away.

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 22:31
He didn't seem to get "blinded" per se, at least not like in the first two games. There was just a major flash of bright white light--no aftermath. I agree that I like TDP/TMA's system better, though.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 22:35
In TDS it was impossible to be blinded by your own flash bomb (I just threw 20 at my own feet to check) >_< or do you mean TDP?

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 22:36
I think he just means the white flash.

Crypto
10th Jun 2009, 22:44
Original post is win. We don't need more arrow types. Seriously, some of those suggestions are appalling.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 22:45
I think most of the arrow suggestions are complete jokes, or at least I hope so... Maybe the benny arrow could be hidden as a little easter egg much like the indestructible arrow in TMA.

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 22:48
Yeah! My Benny arrow was a serious suggestion!

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 22:55
Seriously though, I was joking about the Benny arrow, although it is quite awesome. If it was included, I would thank the Builder through a month-long fast.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 23:00
maybe the benny arrow would be like a talking sword... you find a note next to it by a necromancer who got so sick of the guy he was torturing that he just bound his soul to something he could get rid of (I.e. the arrow). You find the benny arrow by listening for it to locate it.

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 23:06
It would be an honor.

Caranfin
11th Jun 2009, 01:05
Agreed almost completely with the first post. I don't really care about the potions and would be fine with leaving them completely out, though. But on the other hand they are already in and I can just choose not to use them if I want to challenge myself.

Also, theBlackman: I find your use of capital letters entertaining. It makes all of your posts seem really angry, or at least very passionate, to me.

MasterTaffer
11th Jun 2009, 01:07
Weird, I was never blinded in Thief Deadly Shadows and I rarely looked away from the blast.

Nate
11th Jun 2009, 02:00
AGREED with theBlackman's first post! But I have some additions:

-Maps NEED to actually resemble realistic architecture....I hate lame maps that are designed either by crazy people or 5 year old kids! Also, artificial 'blockers' on maps totally break immersion!

-I need CHOICE in regards to how much equipment Garrett can carry. So people who want to carry 10 tons of equipment can do so, and I can play a 'Thief simulator' where I can only carry a small amount.....I know the argument against a 'carry capacity slider' is that I just limit myself to carrying a certain amount (sigh).

-Guards need to have almost lifelike intelligence. Sounding an alarm should actually mean something if you screw up. Probably the best option would be for the city guard to send reinforcements each time the Alarm is sounded.

-I want the devs to focus on the campaign STORYLINE and MAPS instead of putting effort into a City Hub or Multiplayer. Don't get me wrong, I would be happy with a City Hub and Multiplayer.....but not at ANY expense of the single player campaign.

-Things like Guards waking up from BJ after 10-30 minutes, Guards waking up from GAS after ~15 minutes, Guards being able to wake up unconscious NPCs, shortswords having a stealth penalty (while both carried AND drawn) compared to a dagger, glint, CAN ALL be managed with on/off options.

hellwalker
11th Jun 2009, 02:09
animations that does not suck

DarthEnder
11th Jun 2009, 02:11
OP could have saved himself a ton of time typing out that post if he'd just said "Make Thief Gold again but with better graphics!!"

Thieffanman
11th Jun 2009, 03:02
Blackman: For the most part, I agree with what you say. The truth of it is, the equipment that Garrett had in TDS worked well enough; it was just a matter of how the player was able to successfully employ them.

Now, where I disagree with you:



Equipment:
A bow. The one he has works fine if you learn how to use it. No upgrade needed.


Sword. Also fine as is. A useful tool for bashing doors, cutting various things and bashing down obstacles.
Obviously, a killing device if you choose.

The bow-and-knife, or bow-and-sword combination is a pretty standard weapon setup in the fantasy universe. Thief is a little different in that the character can also employ a blackjack, and is encouraged to use it.

Personally, I think it would *rock* if Garrett had access to different types of missile and bladed weaponry. In addition to his shortbow, a player could have access to a take-down bow, pistol bow, or crossbow. Any advantages or disadvantages for each weapon I'll leave up to the devs to figure out, but if there was a way to implement a broader range of missile weapons instead of the standard shortbow, I think it would help the game. Likewise, it would be cool if Garrett had access to different types of bladed weaponry, for the same reasons as stated for the bow.

The trick is, to do this without making the game more combat intensive and still focus on stealth as a primary goal. Is it possible? Sure, if the game is designed right.

--Thieffanman

Hypevosa
11th Jun 2009, 03:28
To an address of this whole thread... I'd say really, there's nothing Garrett NEEDS to have that he doesn't already... but I'd say that having new things would bring more people to the game. You're dealing with the ME generation, where everything can be customized to fit what YOU want. That's what upgrades and weapon selection bring is a kind of customization. It's the kind of thing you put on the back of the box "Customize your arsenal" and people are like "OOOOOooo customization". No, Garrett doesn't need any of it, but some of the consumers feel they do... and that's why the game will probably include things like upgrades or weapon selection or a sandbox city hub etc.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
11th Jun 2009, 04:11
I pretty much agree with the first post. Garrett already does have everything he needs..and then some.

I wouldn't mind if he had more, but he has more than he needs as it is. Anything else is extra.

The game needs a good plot (time in Garrett's history of no consequence) and could be a series of individual ventures not necessarily a major campaign against a "BIG BOSS" or conspiracy.
To be honest, I would much prefer a 'series of individual ventures'. I never much cared for 'big boss' fate of the world type stuff in any story. And yea, could be any time in Garrett's history. I'm so sick of everybody assuming it continues after TDS, even more so, I hate that they assume the player will be some little girl.

Nate
11th Jun 2009, 04:45
....who is assuming the main character is going to be a little girl?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jun 2009, 07:49
What does Garrett really need?

He needs RUN, WALK, RETREAT, LEAN R/L/F, CROUCH, STAND, JUMP.

He has that. Smoother controls could be implemented, but the current set works.

Equipment:
A bow. The one he has works fine if you learn how to use it. No upgrade needed.

Arrows:
Broadheads. Useful for distracting AI, testing surfaces, exploding mines, and of course, Killing beasties. No improvement needed.

Water arrows. Useful for putting out flame, cleaning up the crime scene. And, with a blessing of holy water, useful for the extermination of undead. No improvement needed.

Moss arrows. Almost useful. Nice for carpeting tile, stone, and marble for clumsy thieves. No improvement needed.

Noisemakers. Not a necessity as a broadhead can substitute. But, recoverable and handy. No improvement needed.

Fire arrows. Handy for exploding powder barrels, doing in some undead, relighting fires and torches. No improvement needed.

Gas arrows. Handy for removing AI without killing. Not really an absolute necessity, but very useful in some situations. No improvement needed.

Rope arrows. Nearly indispensible. Handy for reaching difficult areas; bypassing the anticipated route of travel; can be used in place of broadheads against enemies. Allow the player to use imaginative solutions to some problems. No improvement needed.

Miscellaneous tools:

Lock picks. Fine as portrayed and used.

Mines:
Explosive. No improvement needed.
Gas. No improvement needed.

Mines are retrievable if not exploded. The system as it is needs no improvement, including visibility. The should be small, hard to see and no more powerful than at present.

Miscellaneous:
Flash bombs. OK, but should not effect Garrett's vision. The reasoning on that is, he knows he is using it and would shield his eyes from the blast. What idiot would knowingly blind himself in the midst of a bunch of enemies. OH! I forgot. The idiot that put that in TDS.

Scouting Orb. A bit on the "Huh?" side, but ties in with the Mech Eye that Garrett has, and the loosely defined science of the era.

Flares. Handy in dark corners, and to explode powder barrels.

Major upgrades in these would really be overkill.

Potions:
Speed
Health
Slo-fall
Invisibility (never did like this one, but it's ok)

All are fine with the current limitations in length of efficacy. No improvement or changes needed.

Hand Weapons:
Blackjack. Fine as is.

Sword. Also fine as is. A useful tool for bashing doors, cutting various things and bashing down obstacles.
Obviously, a killing device if you choose.

Again, no improvement is needed with either of the above.

Hello? It seems that Garrett has everything he needs. The player just needs to LEARN to use them to the best advantage.

What Garrett really needs, is for the textures, and structures to be well designed and implemented with consistancy.

No phony obstacles to prevent the player from exploring (or dieing), such as a three foot wall you can mantle or jump to or over in one place and a similar wall that acts like it is a hundred feet high.

Garrett needs to be able to jump ACROSS as well as UP.

The game needs a good plot (time in Garrett's history of no consequence) and could be a series of individual ventures not necessarily a major campaign against a "BIG BOSS" or conspiracy.

Note I said COULD BE. The game also needs to recapture, as much as possible, the original tension and immersion that was there in TDP and TMA.


At last, a hero to rescue us from our wanderings! :cool:

QFT :thumb:

ToMegaTherion
11th Jun 2009, 08:26
You lose all credibility if you think the implementation of the cheatsword in previous games is "fine as is".

The factual inaccuracy about the flashbombs is also funny :)

theBlackman
11th Jun 2009, 08:30
"Cheat sword"? It's magic. Constantine, ne The Woodsie Lord gave it to Garrett. Don't quite consider that a Cheat.

And I meant to say TMA and blew it. Life has things like that happen now and then. Not important enough to really rant about. Too petty, and a error on my part that was corrected, by testing and by mention of TMA by Hypevosa

ToMegaTherion
11th Jun 2009, 08:57
Clearly you haven't been reading my rants in the sword vs dagger threads :)

Hypevosa
11th Jun 2009, 09:42
To TheBlackMan:

It's called the cheatsword by some because of it's all powerfulness... some players can effectively fight off 5 or more guards at once using the sword, and as you're a thief, you shouldn't be able to do that is the argument. While sword fighting was more in depth and fun in TDP and TMA, lots of people say it's broken because of the extreme effectiveness of it, where as in TDS, you can take on 1 guard and be ok, but multiple people seem to be out of question, as it should be. With increased AI, and with a little tweaking we could still have the sword, but combat wouldn't be so easy as in TDP and TMA.

ToMegaTherion
11th Jun 2009, 10:13
To be fair though, even though it's horribly broken, kicking everyone's ass with a sword is plenty of fun, it's just a little unfortunate that if you get caught and cornered, the conclusion isn't an exciting fight that you barely escape from alive, but is instead a fairly exciting fight that you walk away from at full health (or encounter Mission Failed if you're playing on expert -- boo to groups of guards not fleeing even when they're getting owned).

AbysmalGale
11th Jun 2009, 11:06
What does Garrett really need?

He needs RUN, WALK, RETREAT, LEAN R/L/F, CROUCH, STAND, JUMP.

He has that. Smoother controls could be implemented, but the current set works.

Equipment:
A bow. The one he has works fine if you learn how to use it. No upgrade needed.

Arrows:
Broadheads. Useful for distracting AI, testing surfaces, exploding mines, and of course, Killing beasties. No improvement needed.

Water arrows. Useful for putting out flame, cleaning up the crime scene. And, with a blessing of holy water, useful for the extermination of undead. No improvement needed.

Moss arrows. Almost useful. Nice for carpeting tile, stone, and marble for clumsy thieves. No improvement needed.

Noisemakers. Not a necessity as a broadhead can substitute. But, recoverable and handy. No improvement needed.

Fire arrows. Handy for exploding powder barrels, doing in some undead, relighting fires and torches. No improvement needed.

Gas arrows. Handy for removing AI without killing. Not really an absolute necessity, but very useful in some situations. No improvement needed.

Rope arrows. Nearly indispensible. Handy for reaching difficult areas; bypassing the anticipated route of travel; can be used in place of broadheads against enemies. Allow the player to use imaginative solutions to some problems. No improvement needed.

Miscellaneous tools:

Lock picks. Fine as portrayed and used.

Mines:
Explosive. No improvement needed.
Gas. No improvement needed.

Mines are retrievable if not exploded. The system as it is needs no improvement, including visibility. The should be small, hard to see and no more powerful than at present.

Miscellaneous:
Flash bombs. OK, but should not effect Garrett's vision. The reasoning on that is, he knows he is using it and would shield his eyes from the blast. What idiot would knowingly blind himself in the midst of a bunch of enemies. OH! I forgot. The idiot that put that in TDS.

Scouting Orb. A bit on the "Huh?" side, but ties in with the Mech Eye that Garrett has, and the loosely defined science of the era.

Flares. Handy in dark corners, and to explode powder barrels.

Major upgrades in these would really be overkill.

Potions:
Speed
Health
Slo-fall
Invisibility (never did like this one, but it's ok)

All are fine with the current limitations in length of efficacy. No improvement or changes needed.

Hand Weapons:
Blackjack. Fine as is.

Sword. Also fine as is. A useful tool for bashing doors, cutting various things and bashing down obstacles.
Obviously, a killing device if you choose.

Again, no improvement is needed with either of the above.

Hello? It seems that Garrett has everything he needs. The player just needs to LEARN to use them to the best advantage.

What Garrett really needs, is for the textures, and structures to be well designed and implemented with consistancy.

No phony obstacles to prevent the player from exploring (or dieing), such as a three foot wall you can mantle or jump to or over in one place and a similar wall that acts like it is a hundred feet high.

Garrett needs to be able to jump ACROSS as well as UP.

The game needs a good plot (time in Garrett's history of no consequence) and could be a series of individual ventures not necessarily a major campaign against a "BIG BOSS" or conspiracy.

Note I said COULD BE. The game also needs to recapture, as much as possible, the original tension and immersion that was there in TDP and TMA.

I could not agree more with you Blackman. Garrett does NOT need more stuff than he already had in the first two games. Definitely not!

Belboz
11th Jun 2009, 12:10
garretts a thief not an assassin, he uses his equipment to avoid getting seen, and not a gunho ninja assasin that kills everyone and everything that gets in his way, go play metal gear solid for that.

He does not need a vast array of weapons just a short bow and black jack, he doesn't need a long bow which are used as seige weapons over large distances, nor does he need a crossbow which use bolts and not arrows and are noisey too use, nor a vast array of weapons who's only use is to kill things. dont want you xbox kiddies to turn the game into some ninja assasin game that has nothing to do with the actual style of the game, go play assasins creed, i think that fills that void, dont want a female thief as lora croft fills that niche.

esme
11th Jun 2009, 12:44
yep the TDP/TMA toolkit and ability set is pretty much perfect

in order of usage the kit I use most is

blackjack, lock picks, rope arrow, water arrow & some sort of distraction device that makes a noise

I very rarely use the others unless I'm up against undead, robots, very large numbers of AI or have a powerful need to blow something up like it's an objective or I really want to know what's behind a door that won't pick and there isn't a key

it would be nice if the engine can support other tools and abilities for fan missions but it's not essential

Fire_Is_Born
11th Jun 2009, 13:24
Whether or not it should effect his vision is a debate of the player controlling what Garrett does, vs Garrett controlling himself.
Or maybe something that would change based on difficulty level...
Also I'd like to see the climbing gloves return... Made the game much more fun in terms of exploring. Some kind of jump attack would be cool too, like in splinter cell where if you're above them you can snap necks/drop on them etc.

Fire_Is_Born
11th Jun 2009, 13:27
garretts a thief not an assassin, he uses his equipment to avoid getting seen, and not a gunho ninja assasin that kills everyone and everything that gets in his way.

Isn't the point of having lots of tools that you can choose your own style of play? I'd get bored trying to use the same creeping tactics over and over, what I loved about TDS was the opportunity for variety.

Thieffanman
11th Jun 2009, 18:26
Isn't the point of having lots of tools that you can choose your own style of play? I'd get bored trying to use the same creeping tactics over and over, what I loved about TDS was the opportunity for variety.

That's what I was driving at in my post. A player can choose to make Garrett a 'gung-ho assassin' no matter how the player arms him-- last I checked, how Garrett is played by the player determines his course of action; not by the amount, or type, of weaponry :).

Personally, I enjoy the stealth and low-to-no-kill aspect of the game, and I have faith in Eidos that they'll make that the primary way to play T4, no matter how Garrett is equipped.

--Thieffanman

BoldEnglishman
11th Jun 2009, 21:12
I think the only change I would make to Garrett's initial arsenal is the flashbomb. As is mentioned in the "flashbomb being overpowered" thread, the flashbomb would not be just an easy get-out-of-jail-free card if blinded guards could not be knocked out from the front. As it stands, the original flashbomb not only lets you blackjack opponents who may have been fully aware of or chasing you, but it also eliminates the necessity of going behind your opponent to blackjack them - all you need to do currently is blind them and then just hit them anywhere.

Hypevosa
11th Jun 2009, 21:57
I think the only change I would make to Garrett's initial arsenal is the flashbomb. As is mentioned in the "flashbomb being overpowered" thread, the flashbomb would not be just an easy get-out-of-jail-free card if blinded guards could not be knocked out from the front. As it stands, the original flashbomb not only lets you blackjack opponents who may have been fully aware of or chasing you, but it also eliminates the necessity of going behind your opponent to blackjack them - all you need to do currently is blind them and then just hit them anywhere.

well assuming we have to hit them in the head in T4, that's fixed, because really you could hit their big toe and apparently the pain would render them unconscious in the first games...

kaekaelyn
11th Jun 2009, 22:24
Hmm...how come the TDS guards don't just fwap themselves on the head when Garrett tosses a flashbomb? They'd snap right out of it!

DarthEnder
12th Jun 2009, 05:05
We've never had to go behind them to blackjack them at all, anyway, flashbomb or not, so there was no elimination of necessity.But you SHOULD have. The fact that you could jump up in down in a dark room next to a room full of guards, then beak each one as they stick their head it, was stupid.

Flashart
12th Jun 2009, 07:44
Garrett needs to go prone, and commando crawl. Hiding under beds, moving through grass, hiding in 12" of shadow etc. I'd do it so the penalty was an inability to use weapons but I think it would expand the invention during level design, and be a great way of developing tension. Hiding on the roofs of sheds or trains etc, I see no minus side.

theBlackman
12th Jun 2009, 10:01
Garrett needs to go prone, and commando crawl. Hiding under beds, moving through grass, hiding in 12" of shadow etc. I'd do it so the penalty was an inability to use weapons but I think it would expand the invention during level design, and be a great way of developing tension. Hiding on the roofs of sheds or trains etc, I see no minus side.


Garrett needs this like I need a .44 magnum slug between the eyes. Garrett is not, and should never be another commando freak. There are enough of these ninja/Green beret/military pseudo games and characters already.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2009, 10:55
^
So true. *sigh*

Flashart
12th Jun 2009, 10:56
All those scary Green Berets hiding under beds....

Or! Make the underneath of beds and all grass at least 3' high then he can crouch under them. Brilliant!!

It's just another way of exploring his surroundings it wouldn't have any negative impact, even if you retrofitted it into T2.

esme
12th Jun 2009, 11:00
Garrett needs this like I need a .44 magnum slug between the eyes. Garrett is not, and should never be another commando freak. There are enough of these ninja/Green beret/military pseudo games and characters already.

true but it would be nice to be able to squeeze through smaller openings ... there's me and my claustrophobia asking for smaller gaps to squeeze through :eek: what am I thinking I get vertigo from the game as it is I don't want 'coffin dreams' after playing

ignore me leave it as it is

xDarknessFallsx
13th Jun 2009, 19:23
Garrett really needs to feel like Garrett again. After experiencing TDS, he's lost some of his confidence. He forgot how to swim. He was hallucinating loot sparkles. He couldn't find any secret passageways. When he turned to his left he would lose his balance and fall off ledges. He was seeing light trails behind arrows (although this one might be from smoking too many glowing shrooms).

Poor guy. He just needs a good taffin' experience again. He misses it, and needs it to build his thieving confidence back up.

13LACK13ISHOP
13th Jun 2009, 19:28
Prone(I would use it, in fact I have noticed places in the original theif were it would be useful). And besides anyone who uses prone is not a commando freak or whatever just a very smart man. The blackmans right,hiding under beds and stuff would be cool.


Knock on walls(less silly than banging a sword on a wall). Also knock on windows and doors to lure guards over.

Also bring lean forward back or even better let you look through keyholes like in hitman. If I can do it then why cant Garret?

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
13th Jun 2009, 19:53
I totally forgot about this, but I think Garrett needs to be able to stealthily open and close doors. It sucks when I close a door behind me and a guard goes "huh?" In reality I would not slam doors shut if I was in Garrett's loud shoes. I'd also like if he could look through keyholes. :whistle:

I might also say he needs quieter footwear, but loud shoes are part of the game I guess. Sometimes it's hard to tell when I should draw the line between gamey and practical.


The blackmans right,hiding under beds and stuff would be cool.

:D

MasterTaffer
13th Jun 2009, 19:55
I totally forgot about this, but I think Garrett needs to be able to stealthily open and close doors. It sucks when I close a door behind me and a guard goes "huh?" In reality I would not slam doors shut if I was in Garrett's loud shoes. I'd also like if he could look through keyholes. :whistle:

Agreed. :thumb:

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
13th Jun 2009, 21:58
Those oil flasks were pretty funny. I didn't really use them before though. On my current play through TDS I'm trying to use them more. I feel like I may have missed something good because I ignored them before. They might be good to stop pursuing guards. I only ever really used them for laughs, trying to make guards slip down stairs and stuff.

akalest0s
13th Jun 2009, 23:12
Maybe you are interested in reading my post here :
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1025411&postcount=225

Shouldn't these forums be better structured btw? Seems even moderators tend to help in the mess (don't take it offensively, I'm new here and trying to figure out your style :P)

theBlackman
13th Jun 2009, 23:58
When I first heard of the oil flasks, I wondered if one application might have to do with oiling squeaky hinges, but I realized that wasn't really workable, since you'd have to know a door was squeaky before opening/closing it, and that was also before I found out the player throws and shatters them noisily.


Actually, jtr, most pros often carry oil for doors. You don't need to know it squeaks. You oil it before you even try it.:)

Sierra Oscar
14th Jun 2009, 00:01
What he does not need is a third person view mode.

theBlackman
14th Jun 2009, 01:08
Agreed the addition of the oil added nothing to the game play and the available choices for use were laughable.

I remember old text only games that gave you more options to use oil. And, as it happens, one use was to free a rusted gate. :)

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 01:17
Hahaha, ah back to the time of Zork, where all you needed was an imagination.

MasterTaffer
14th Jun 2009, 01:51
What does GARRETT really need
A hug.

theBlackman
14th Jun 2009, 02:02
Maybe not a hug. But certainly people to stop messing with his tools and abilities at the expense of the game.

Nate
14th Jun 2009, 02:42
Agreed the addition of the oil added nothing to the game play and the available choices for use were laughable.

You mean having guards falling down all over the place Benny Hill style (just missing the music) wasn't in the spirit of the Thief series? Are you saying that oil flasks didn't add to the immersion of the game...hehe.

For me, those oil flasks used to break immersion each time I'd cycle through my items. Oil flasks would come up and I'd say to myself 'what were they thinking?' and then I'd cycle to the next item.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 02:48
yeah I've never used an oil flask this game... See, the idea of sealing off a corridor was a good one, BUT the fact you had to throw the oil and fire the fire arrow quick enough before the person got past the oil, meant that it was too complicated or took too much time for the player to bother with. If they were more like moltovs, where it's one action to seal the corridor, then they probably would have seen more use.

Nate
14th Jun 2009, 03:35
If the game was called 'Pyro: The Bright Project' or 'Pyro: Deadly Flames', then I could understand oil flasks being a central part of Garrett's tools.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 04:48
There's no reason he couldn't use the oil, like I said, it was just too inconvenient. Just because he's a thief doesn't mean he can't use fire, hence the arrows. Really caltrops are alot more thiefly by design for sectioning off a hallway so that no one follows you as you run... they'd also be a good warning if you used them kind of like a motion sensor... except it's the person screaming because there's a caltrop in their foot that lets you know someone's there.

xDarknessFallsx
14th Jun 2009, 08:03
Garrett needs a mission where he can blow his subtle bird-call whistle again to signal a friend.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 08:08
XD I'd like to see a tribute to that in T4.

13LACK13ISHOP
14th Jun 2009, 11:40
That bird call could be used lure guards over without revealing yourself. I think he should keep it.

Nate
14th Jun 2009, 16:05
To lure guards over, Garrett could always just go 'Pssst, hey you! Come here!'....I mean, the average intelligence of Thief guards is rather low.

DustinEchoz
14th Jun 2009, 16:18
The Noisemaker Arrow is useless, I never used it before, and I think it would benefit everyone if the developers came up with a way to do without these. Such as, using broadhead arrows to clang off of something metal. The fewer arrow types the better. I had 30 different types of arrows in my quiver during Oblivion and they were all mostly useless and served only to bog down my inventory system.

13LACK13ISHOP
14th Jun 2009, 18:14
The Noisemaker Arrow is useless, I never used it before, and I think it would benefit everyone if the developers came up with a way to do without these. Such as, using broadhead arrows to clang off of something metal. The fewer arrow types the better. I had 30 different types of arrows in my quiver during Oblivion and they were all mostly useless and served only to bog down my inventory system.

Couldnt agree more.

fayfuya
14th Jun 2009, 18:26
Alright i got 3 things to say:
1. Slo-fall potion is a bit...stupid, try a slo-falling cloak you can buy in an illegal shop or in the "back-room" of a shop, drinking a potion that makes you fall slower is a bit...silly, a cool cape-cloak with a hood would be nice.
2. Invisibility potion in a sneaking game is the dumbest thing i ever heard, you are supposed to sneak! not to become invisible as the air, it ruins the WHOLE point of the game, no invisiblity potion in Thief 4 plz.
3. A sword maybe gives some sort of confidence for the player, but a swift thief carrying a sword....it just doesn't fit...Garrett is supposed to crouch, run jump land lean and sneak, a sword is heavy for those, it's just not comfortable or cool, but i believe there should be the option for us to buy a sword from the shop if we want to...but i don't like the sword in that game, dagger is more...thievy...

Platinumoxicity
14th Jun 2009, 19:16
2. Agreed. Invisibility potions were a major continuity error and a form of hand-holding. I didn't like that they were available to anybody, yet obviously no one ever used them. Garrett was supposed to be a Master of the shadows. I doubt there will be any excess potions in Thief 4, unless they are planning on making a child's game.

There were places in T2 where I had to use Invis potions, like when there is a place where you need to go to accomplish an objective but there are no shadows and the place is full of guards or there is a mecha-cherub. :( Or kidnapping Cavador without being seen and without knocking anyone else out.

They should make T4 so that every objective can be completed by ghosting.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 20:06
Alright i got 3 things to say:
1. Slo-fall potion is a bit...stupid, try a slo-falling cloak you can buy in an illegal shop or in the "back-room" of a shop, drinking a potion that makes you fall slower is a bit...silly, a cool cape-cloak with a hood would be nice.
2. Invisibility potion in a sneaking game is the dumbest thing i ever heard, you are supposed to sneak! not to become invisible as the air, it ruins the WHOLE point of the game, no invisiblity potion in Thief 4 plz.
3. A sword maybe gives some sort of confidence for the player, but a swift thief carrying a sword....it just doesn't fit...Garrett is supposed to crouch, run jump land lean and sneak, a sword is heavy for those, it's just not comfortable or cool, but i believe there should be the option for us to buy a sword from the shop if we want to...but i don't like the sword in that game, dagger is more...thievy...

A slo-fall potions served their purpose a few times when I played, not enough times to justify paying 1000 gold for a cape that does it though. The invisibility potion served for times where you CAN'T sneak... like remember when there was that little golden cherub dude that was always in places with bright lights and no where else to go? times like those called for an invisibility potion for those who didn't want to be seen. There's no reason it shouldn't be in the game as long as they put a good time cap on it (like 10 seconds maybe 15). Garrett was trained as a KEEPER, not as a thief. He was trained with a sword, how to use it, and how to conceal it when it wasn't in his hand. A sword is not heavy enough to effect his mobility. The sword made for better more fun combat, and none of the primary aspects of a truly good game should not be fun. Make the player not want to get into combat because the results of it suck, not because the combat itself sucks.

Myth
15th Jun 2009, 20:12
Alright i got 3 things to say:
1. Slo-fall potion is a bit...stupid, try a slo-falling cloak you can buy in an illegal shop or in the "back-room" of a shop, drinking a potion that makes you fall slower is a bit...silly, a cool cape-cloak with a hood would be nice.
2. Invisibility potion in a sneaking game is the dumbest thing i ever heard, you are supposed to sneak! not to become invisible as the air, it ruins the WHOLE point of the game, no invisiblity potion in Thief 4 plz.
3. A sword maybe gives some sort of confidence for the player, but a swift thief carrying a sword....it just doesn't fit...Garrett is supposed to crouch, run jump land lean and sneak, a sword is heavy for those, it's just not comfortable or cool, but i believe there should be the option for us to buy a sword from the shop if we want to...but i don't like the sword in that game, dagger is more...thievy...

1: No. You haven't played the first two games, said so in another thread right? So why keep throwing uneducated opions around? You haven't seen the secrets as they were, you haven't used the slow fall potions, yet you suggest magical trinkets to make Thief kid friendly and similar to games like Zelda?

2. It was added mainly for those who did not have the skill to sneak around the harder places. Same with the gas arrow. This contradicts your suggestion of adding a permanent slow fall magic trinket that would make the game very easy.

3. I don't care much for the sword apart from it's door bashing capabilities but you know nothing of real swords IRL i guess and make assumptions on weight. They are NOT heavy for a grown male, especially if trained well. Go to THEARMA.ORG and read some articles, don't use fantasy games as a reference for sword weight.

aStrangeAlien
15th Jun 2009, 20:40
Give him a pry bar and a ferret, he'll be good to go.

Skaruts
25th Jun 2009, 02:33
Walk slowly. No one needs to crouch to make even less noise. Walk slowly shouldn't work while crouching, though.

I'd take out bow zoom. But that's me. Ever since TDP I felt that it wasn't right. But I'll survive with it anyway.

Sword. Don't forget the combat system from TDP. If the sword was to the left of the enemy in sight he would swing it one way, if it was to it's right he would swing it the other way. I always thought of that as a very good implementation as it provides you control over how to attack the enemy and also as to block their attacks depending on how they attack.
And he could use some more ability to use it aswell, while keeping the fights really hard as to induce the player to stealth instead of wreck havok.

Most of the items are useless in my opinion. Or at least they were in all the previous games. I hardly ever used any of them. But since they will most likelly be there still, it'd be good to still be able to complete missions without them, for I will still want to keep them aside. Then again, that's just me. I'll survive.

As for obstacles I think low hight obstacles should be easily climbable (faster than before). I have this opinion from my personal experience on walls of up until my own hight. If the wall is half my hight, I just do a little jump and I'm on the other side with no effort at all. If the wall is of my hight I jump and the effort is almost null aswell.
But in all thief games I always saw garret climbing things with considerable effort and slowlyness, like if he didn't have much agility.
Of course, a wall higher than garret can take some effort to climb.

The conspiracy on plot tends to be good, as it fills the plot with content and events and, to some extent, interest (provided that the conspiracy is interesting). If there's any better ideas I think it'd be good. But I still would like to see some conspiracy.
The "BIG BOSS" however, in my opinion is somewhat a cliché already, making the series starting to look padronised and predictable.

Garret needs friends and foes from the "underground" scene as well as from the "mainstream" scene. I'd go for a majority in the underground scene, so that garret can be that unknown person that causes headaches for the mainstream. But a foe in the maistream, for example, can be a good reason for garret to do some blackmail or something that suits the plot or the side mission.

I mentioned in another thread that garret could use thief kids as his informants or to provide him with little tasks while he would be in the "big" mission.
He was a thief kid once too.

Nate
25th Jun 2009, 04:31
Yeah, taking out Bow Zoom would be nice. I wouldn't miss that feature at all.

Hypevosa
25th Jun 2009, 04:53
I liked it, especially when you need to run the game on a lower resolution bow zoom helped to increase accuracy for things like shots through slits or barely around corners, because you could get the extra judgment the pixelation denied you.

Nate
25th Jun 2009, 07:16
Well, I won't go into realism and immersion over the Bow Zoom feature....

Besides, it could easily be argued that the Bow Zoom feature is simply Garrett's mechanical eye zooming in for increased accuracy.

Hypevosa
25th Jun 2009, 07:26
well I'm just arguing for the usability/gameplay side of it. There has always been a toggle to turn it off anyways if I remember right.

Platinumoxicity
25th Jun 2009, 08:35
Besides, it could easily be argued that the Bow Zoom feature is simply Garrett's mechanical eye zooming in for increased accuracy.

It's not Garrett's eye zooming. It has been around all the way from TDP. It's main purpose was to give players who played in low resolution a better view of what they were shooting at. That feature is a relic and serves no purpose today. In fact, in TDP the bow zoom actually bothered me quite a lot. I could never hit anything with that zoom, but without zoom I could snipe from very long distances. :confused:

kin
25th Jun 2009, 09:50
What does Garrett really need?

Only what has been taken away from him in TDS.

Skaruts
25th Jun 2009, 13:20
I liked it, especially when you need to run the game on a lower resolution bow zoom helped to increase accuracy for things like shots through slits or barely around corners, because you could get the extra judgment the pixelation denied you.
Well that's the other side of the coin. I feel sympathetic to that. Having it in options would be good then.


well I'm just arguing for the usability/gameplay side of it. There has always been a toggle to turn it off anyways if I remember right.
I never noticed having that option, but if it was there then I think it would be good to still have it.

Sebra
1st Jul 2009, 17:16
Yes, it was in options from the begining.

Tool set was good in first game.
From second game I don`t like invis & slowfall potions.
Thief 3 had more bad tools but lost some good.
One thing I want from thief 3 is a hiding near walls. I think it can be made without any control, just auto, when your back turns to a wall.

Also I think Garrett need a small control key:
A key (button) "next key". When you press it, Garrett takes a next key from his inventory and tryes to use it on a lock in front. Would be useful to try all keys you have on unknown lock.

Want an option to place used key on a hook/shelf/desk/guard where it was.

Don`t want 3rd person view, but want to see own hands/feet/corpse in action. Not an "items in the air".

Want a summary loot counter to trace game progress for estets. Ability to take your equipment to the next mission, sell it (arrows/bombs/mines/potions...) or buy additional.

I want an option to go on mission with empty hands and use only found tools if needed.

I want an option to use magic crystalls without a bow:
A water cryslall to douse a fire I can touch.
A moss crystall to make a carpet under my feet.
A fire crystall as a tiny lamp to see nearest things around. There is no shadows if you hold the light source.
I don`t know how to use a gas crystall. May be to turn a water/vine into a sleep potion. :)

It will not ruin the game.

Platinumoxicity
1st Jul 2009, 17:28
Also I think Garrett need a small control key:
A key (button) "next key". When you press it, Garrett takes a next key from his inventory and tryes to use it on a lock in front. Would be useful to try all keys you have on unknown lock.

Want an option to place used key on a hook/shelf/desk/guard where it was.



The key controls sound like a very good idea indeed. :)

Fatherwoodsie
1st Jul 2009, 18:32
"One thing I want from thief 3 is a hiding near walls. I think it can be made without any control, just auto, when your back turns to a wall."

hmm i duno i think that could be annoying. then you would have garrett leaning against a wall when you wouldnt want him to and it could get annoying if he automatically does it. i like the button to do it better...or maybe hold the direction against the wall and then he does it?

Sebra
1st Jul 2009, 19:01
Yes. Turn your back to wall and press backward direction.
I don`t want special key for this like T3.

Platinumoxicity
1st Jul 2009, 19:23
Yes. Turn your back to wall and press backward direction.
I don`t want special key for this like T3.

You don't even need that. It's prefectly possible to make him lean against a wall when you get close to it without interfering with the player's movements at all. The player model just goes to "wall-hug" position but it doesn't "stick" to the wall. You only get closer to it.

Herr_Garrett
1st Jul 2009, 19:34
The key controls sound like a very good idea indeed. :)

No, we need a keyring, which has been featured in a number of FMs ever since Mission X (if I'm correct).

Skaruts
1st Jul 2009, 19:36
Yes. Turn your back to wall and press backward direction.
I don`t want special key for this like T3.
I'd rather have the special key. Anything else could become annoyingly unpredictable at times. Even pressing the back key.

For example, if you are adjusting your position close to the wall so a guard can go past you, and there's no need to "hug" the wall, you'll find yourself pressing the back key to keep the view focused on the guard. If pressing the back key would "hug" the wall, you'd be "hugging" it against your will in this situation.

I'm not averse to having lots of keys to play with, and I prefer to control whatever my character does, at all times.

Sebra
1st Jul 2009, 20:40
No, we need a keyring, which has been featured in a number of FMs ever since Mission X (if I'm correct).Sorry, I don`t play FM yet. How it works?



Yes. Turn your back to wall and press backward direction.
I don`t want special key for this like T3.You don't even need that. It's prefectly possible to make him lean against a wall when you get close to it without interfering with the player's movements at all. The player model just goes to "wall-hug" position but it doesn't "stick" to the wall. You only get closer to it.

I'd rather have the special key. Anything else could become annoyingly unpredictable at times. Even pressing the back key.
Just "hug" by moving "backward into wall" and "unhug" by moving to open space.
Easy and user friendly. :)

Skaruts
1st Jul 2009, 20:45
What if you don't want to hug the wall?

Skaruts
1st Jul 2009, 20:56
The Wall needs love, too.

loooooool :D

esme
2nd Jul 2009, 11:22
No, we need a keyring, which has been featured in a number of FMs ever since Mission X (if I'm correct).
Sorry, I don`t play FM yet. How it works?

you pick up a new key it gets added to the keyring, when come to a locked door you can unlock it if you have the key on the keyring just by frobbing it with the keyring or picking it open if it's pickable

and I strongly urge you to try a few FM's you are seriously missing out on a lot of fun for free, there are gigabytes of the things out there, there are a couple that are not so good (like the one I did) but there are quite a few that surpass the original missions, have a look at TTLG in the fan missions forum

kin
2nd Jul 2009, 11:36
It is more realistic for me to search the key in the inventory than having an automated key ring that automatically unlocks the door by pointing it on. I never liked the key ring in FMs because it took allot of the tension searching for a key when a guard approached slowly. Although I would accept a key ring that I would have to search which key corresponds to a door. It is the way it would be done in real life.

esme
2nd Jul 2009, 11:36
less is indeed often more unless basic functionality is removed rather than improved upon ;)

Skaruts
2nd Jul 2009, 12:04
I was a fan of the tension of looking for the right key. But I agree with the key ring aswell.
Maybe make the keyring something you can purchase or steal from somewhere and limit the keyring to like 10 keys (and having a key to drop unused keys would be usefull too).

ToMegaTherion
2nd Jul 2009, 12:56
Not having played an FM with a keyring, does it tell you which of your keys was used? It's a nice feeling when you discover that the important door was opened by the key you discovered in a hard-to-reach area.

Hypevosa
2nd Jul 2009, 13:04
maybe when using the key ring on a door, right clicking the first time would turn it into the key like you saw in the old games, with its name under it, and then you could use that key on the door (simulating rifling through the keys and finding the right one).

esme
2nd Jul 2009, 15:42
Not having played an FM with a keyring, does it tell you which of your keys was used? It's a nice feeling when you discover that the important door was opened by the key you discovered in a hard-to-reach area.

not unless the author gives the key a special name so you know where it''s for when you pick it up, otherwise it's a "find a door you can't open, find a key, try the door again" trial and error job

Fatherwoodsie
2nd Jul 2009, 18:21
i think if you have lets say 3 keys, and you happen to have the RIGHT key for the door you are trying to open, i think it should automatically be the first key you try instead of having to fumble and cycle. the most realistic aspects of life may lessen the games fun. its a GAME!

Skaruts
2nd Jul 2009, 19:33
If I have 3 or even 6 keys I think it's not painstaking to cycle them in search for the right one. If I have 20 keys it is, however.

But in the "cycle through" case it would be good to get keys discarded at the end of the misson, and it would be good to have a perceivable padron of shapes and colors associated with certain purposes (rooms, kitchen, whatever else). This way the player could learn to distinguish which keys are worth carrying,

kabatta
2nd Jul 2009, 19:43
Yes. Like I said, efficiency (good thing) and simplification to improve

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6017/picks1.jpg

Great image. But why were there less lockpicks in the real life guide than in the image? (my knowledge of locks is very poor)

Skaruts
2nd Jul 2009, 19:56
Great image. But why were there less lockpicks in the real life guide than in the image? (my knowledge of locks is very poor)

Actually, there are even more lockpicks than in the image. :) Not much more, but there are.

kaekaelyn
2nd Jul 2009, 22:00
i almost wish you could bind a..."key" key, for lack of a better term, that will take you to the first key in your inventory, so you can cycle from there.

Hypevosa
2nd Jul 2009, 22:09
i almost wish you could bind a..."key" key, for lack of a better term, that will take you to the first key in your inventory, so you can cycle from there.

brilliant... Maybe it could be the key ring key. It brings up the key ring, you right click and it brings up the keys in the order you found them during the level and tries them on the door (tab will skip a key and move to the next, shift tab will go back a key, or whatever you bind really). Then when you get the right key, and open the door it stores that key as your new First key, that way if you want to relock the door or if that's a commonly used key it's more easily accessible. It's back to the main inventory and a keyring after successfully using it on the door.

Flashart
3rd Jul 2009, 07:50
When the key gets used correctly for the first time it automatically becomes "identified" (Kitchen, Bedroom 1 etc), then you only need do the guesswork once per door.

Fatherwoodsie
3rd Jul 2009, 07:53
thats basically what im tryin to say

Sebra
3rd Jul 2009, 15:30
you pick up a new key it gets added to the keyring, when come to a locked door you can unlock it if you have the key on the keyring just by frobbing it with the keyring or picking it open if it's pickableThanks.
But this way you don`t know which key unlock a lock and placing keys back where taken also impossible.

and I strongly urge you to try a few FM's you are seriously missing out on a lot of fun for free, there are gigabytes of the things out there, there are a couple that are not so good (like the one I did) but there are quite a few that surpass the original missions, have a look at TTLG in the fan missions forumYes. I will try them. Just after replaying TG now.
My TG has a little problems with directx not founding dx6 or 8 as I have 9. Not much a problem.

esme
3rd Jul 2009, 15:45
Thanks.
But this way you don`t know which key unlock a lock and placing keys back where taken also impossible.true but you don't need to know which key unlocks a lock as the keyring will manage it for you

and yes you can't put keys back which kind of messes up an ultimate ghost attempt, but there again if an AI carries a key on their belt you can't put that back either

Sebra
3rd Jul 2009, 16:15
brilliant... Maybe it could be the key ring key. It brings up the key ring, you right click and it brings up the keys in the order you found them during the level and tries them on the door (tab will skip a key and move to the next, shift tab will go back a key, or whatever you bind really). Then when you get the right key, and open the door it stores that key as your new First key, that way if you want to relock the door or if that's a commonly used key it's more easily accessible. It's back to the main inventory and a keyring after successfully using it on the door.I want such keyring. ;)

true but you don't need to know which key unlocks a lock as the keyring will manage it for you
and yes you can't put keys back which kind of messes up an ultimate ghost attempt, but there again if an AI carries a key on their belt you can't put that back eitherToo easy first and too bad second.
And yes, I want to be able to put any key back at shelf/desk/hook/guard.
I hope it will be possible in T4, not only in one place in T2.

esme
3rd Jul 2009, 16:23
it would be a challenge to put a key back on a guards belt

kaekaelyn
3rd Jul 2009, 17:02
Could you put the wrong key back on his belt?

esme
3rd Jul 2009, 17:31
not in the original TDP, TMA or TDS it might be possible in an FM, sorry if I gave the impression that it could be done in the original missions I was sort of thinking out loud

it could make a good challenge if it were done in T4 though

Sebra
3rd Jul 2009, 17:37
Yes. And I want this challenge.

kaekaelyn
3rd Jul 2009, 17:39
I know, I understood. I'm just asking about your idea...in your idea, would it be possible to put the wrong key back on a guard's belt, or would it be impossible, kind of like trying to open a lock with the wrong key?

Belboz
3rd Jul 2009, 18:49
dont think it was possible in tdp or tma as you would usually give the guards two keys, one kept internally to unlock doors on a patrol, else they would just constanly walk into a locked door, and then the mission would be broken, and impossible to ghost as you would have to knockout the guard to get past the door, the second key would be on the belt to be picked by the player.

[PT] Garret [PT]
13th Jul 2009, 09:53
While I agree with nearly everything you said, I noticed an error. In the first 2 games Garrett was effected by his own flashbombs, because you were supposed to be Garrett, and if you looked away before it went off he would be unaffected (something I only perfected while playing the second game). In TDS the flashbombs have no effect on him, even if you throw one at your feet and stare straight at it. I think they were better when they could blind you because you had to have enough trust in your throw to look away, and then look back if you wanted to double check it had the desired effect. It also meant that if you were in a tense situation and had to throw one near yourself in order to stop the guards from attacking, you had to escape a little blind, which I found to be kind of fun. Whether or not it should effect his vision is a debate of the player controlling what Garrett does, vs Garrett controlling himself. Some situations demand one or the other.





in TDS garret wasn`t affected by the flashbomb because he had a mech eye

Hamadriyad
13th Jul 2009, 09:58
Garret [PT];1059369']in TDS garret wasn`t affected by the flashbomb because he had a mech eye

So, he had not a mech eye in TMA?

Pieter888
13th Jul 2009, 10:30
Garret was simply not blinded by the flashbomb because of the 3rd person view, as you would normally look away from the blast by moving your mouse to turn your head away, you would just move the camera around garret. So I guess it was replaced by the short white flash because of that reason, not because of the story-line with the mech-eye, he also had the mech-eye in TMA anyway.

Sebra
13th Jul 2009, 14:24
And his left eye is alive anyway.
It is 3rd person mind problem.

marc780
18th Jul 2009, 04:21
Easter eggs? Did someone say easter eggs? There is one, kind of, in theif 2. It is at the start of the mission where you go into the police station to frame the cop "Framed" i think the mission is called...when the mission starts, to your left is a wall, to your right is the building with the door you will pick, open the hatch and jump into the water. Dont do any of these things to see the easter egg - just throw a scouting orb over the wall to the left and look into it, you will see some guy doing a weird little cha cha dance for no apparent reason.

gryphos
18th Jul 2009, 05:07
When I played the prison level of TDS, I used the birdcall whistle in lieu of a harmonica to play the jailhouse blues...

gryphos
20th Jul 2009, 02:55
Alas, it got swiped from the safety deposit box I had it stored in, during a bank heist... :(

Hamadriyad
25th Jul 2009, 17:16
What does Garrett really need?



Stephen Russell.

kabatta
25th Jul 2009, 17:30
What does Garrett really need?

More loot. To quote him: "I want my money." ;)

thefatsnowman
28th Jul 2009, 18:09
Hi guys!
This is my first post, so be nice! I can't profess to have read this entire thread, but am really just adding my own two cents a Thief lover. Apologies for any repetitions on ideas.

I agree a lot with the lead post, however I would add the following comments:

1) Knife v Sword - I have to say the knife is the most logical tool for a thief - carrying a large sword under the cloak is neither stealthy nor conducive to subtlety. I would proffer that a knife or at least a short sword makes most sense as the weapon for a thief

2) Bow - I have always loved stealthing from afar. However, the mechanic whereby it takes more kills to drop an active guard than not is just silly. Lets just introduce a decent mechanic that has damage effects based on limbs shall we, and dispense with this farce?

2a) alternative to bow (as suggested somewhere above) - I like the idea of say a pistol crossbow being used, if say some missions required much more limited arsenal of tools (e.g. infiltration missions, or ones that require more mingling with the populace) - a bow is hardly a subtle thing that can be shoved under the codpiece! A small crossbow assembled from clothing and mundane items concealed on the person, or that is small enough to be stashed innocuously is a good solution to this. Adds perhaps some more realism. However, it must have a different feel than firing a bow - e.g. shorted range, longer reloading, but more power (i.e. mimic real life differences)

3) Blackjack. MAKE IT WORK SENSIBLY. I am pretty sure whether you are facing someone or not, the cosh to the head will send you out cold. I can see the argument for hits from behind being 1 hit KO vs multiple from an awake, attacking guard. BUT, if this is to be the case then a) hits on alerted/searching guards from behind must be instant KO as well and b) alerted guards should at least real from the blow and not laugh mercilessly at my pathetic triceps/. It just never felt real.

4) rope vines/wall glove argument - Either a) implement both, and limit use of each to specific terrain types (e.g. wood vs stone etc) or b) a grappelling hook. like action. I favour the latter as it would mean buildings could be scalled by shooting an arrow over the top of a building/ledge and pulling it back till it digs in. Seems more logical to me. In addition, ability to climb down from on high to lower place via a rope without having to shoot an arrow. In other words, tie a rope to solid object and rappel down. Something like the splinter cell double agent approach (but a **** load better implemented, for the love of god, with much more freedom to use it) of using anchor points. A limited supply of rope adds realism/difficulty to this.

That's all for now, more thoughts later I am sure.

negative_len
28th Jul 2009, 18:38
Four working limbs, a bow and a blackjack.

thefatsnowman
29th Jul 2009, 17:09
An alternative to mines:

What do people think about the idea of caltrops? A low tech simple solution to slow guards down on regular paths, cause some commotion that doesn't involve killing and allows our cloaked protagonist to sneak around?

thefatsnowman
29th Jul 2009, 17:17
Well I understand that you think the equipment is fine and shouldn't be changed at all. Fair enough. To me however, this is not Thief 4 - Cloned, but Thief 4 - a new game.

I am merely trying to suggest alternative concepts. Don't dismiss a concept because it wasn't in Thief 1 and therefore requires new animation! Its a new game; it will ALL require a new animation. and gaming technology has moved on somewhat.

It does in no way encourage being caught - dropping a few caltops in a patrol route, stealthing to the more heavily guarded section and waiting for a scream and the hapless idiots to go running whilst I loot their stuff sounds good to me.

Personally I always thought mines completely ridiculous, and out of place in a the Thief arsenal.

theBlackman
29th Jul 2009, 17:53
Fatsnow This is not a SHOOT "N SCOOT series. "Cool" crap that only makes Garrett a better "Killer" is not in the theme of the series.

Your "new game" is actually a re-run of all the other such, with a minor twist. You can lure the guards away with tools Garrett already has.

Garrett has everything HE needs. Mayhap not enough new toys for you but more than enough for his own purposes. If you learn to use them and think like Garrett.

A new game is what we want, but that means new ventures, new antagonists, new challenges. Not THIEF becomes CALL TO DUTY.

thefatsnowman
29th Jul 2009, 18:06
Firstly, please drop the patronizing tone – my reply was not in any anguish at your rejection, for I care not that you disagree. I replied merely to highlight my own argument and critique yours. I just found your reply to read like a knee-jerk “it wasn’t there before so we don’t need it now” hence my reply. Apologies if I seemed ‘testy’ – I am only retorting to create constructive dialogue, and found your wholesale rejection ill-considered/explained.

I understand that you are arguing for avoiding having ‘unnecessary’ items here. My retort was that you define necessary by the standards of inclusion in the earlier games – though perhaps I didn’t make this clear. I agree that the games were successful and great, but I am suggesting here a significant change to the arsenal to accomplish the same kinds of outcome. I always found some significant elements of the arsenal overly complex to achieve simple results, or somehow not fitting with the character.

That said:

I would agree with you in part. There is already a large range of equipment that is at the disposal of Garrett. My argument here is that much of it is redundant already – or fails to really fit. I think that the majority of the extra equipment is primarily single use – a mine is a mine with a sole purpose, water arrows were for putting out lights etc. The only real extra use is alternative noise creators. I am not sure that aspect of your argument holds water.

I follow that you agree with me that mines are strange, and I also follow that mines are ‘at-a-distance’ weapons (in essence). I do not however follow the problem with putting an obstacle in the path of the guard. It is hardly difficult to place caltrops on the floor compared to say, a mine on the adjacent wall.

Could you explain the logic whereby you say “Get rid of the mines, then” – it doesn’t follow on from any preceding statements, unless this is implying they are in essence, mines, and is sarcasm?

Finally –I disagree that they cause combat or confrontation. They are meant to incapacitate not kill, be used to avoid actual combat and face-offs and are merely a subtler approach than say flash bombs/mines (equally one use items).

"Smoother and more effective mantling is something Garrett could use more of, for instance....We want more City and more to do in the City."

I agree completely with this. I am here talking about items in the arsenal. I am arguing for simplification of items to flow more with the concept of a thief.

thefatsnowman
29th Jul 2009, 18:11
@TheBlackman

Again - you are missing the point! I am not suggesting it has more action, and becomes Call to Duty. Compared to mines, caltrops are hardly high tech,combat brining items. They have been in existence, unchanged, and used defensively for several thousand years. I am trying to address the items that I think don't fit thief - I.E. objects like mines. A low-tech equivalent is the caltrop (cited as the earliest mine). It's hardly a gadget in comparison - it's more low tech and has the same effect. It's more suitable to a thief's arsenal. To me it addressed the floors in existing equipment.This is stripping down the equipment, not some shiny gadget. A caltrop is basically small sharpened metal. It involves no killing, no long term damage to the guards, and merely slows/injures/causes a commotion.

If you want to argue for say, wholesale removal of the mines fullstop, then I agree. If they are kept, this is a more elegant, more fitting and less confrontational alternative.

Explosive vs caltrop

You tell me which is more call of duty?

theBlackman
29th Jul 2009, 22:53
Given the Steampunk setting either mines or Caltrops could appear. The point you are missing is that the world of Garrett, his interaction with it, the "Tools" HE NEEDS are already at hand.

There are probably horses, carriages, caltrops, mounted cavalry and other medieval accoutrements in his world.

But none of those really need to enter into the game structure, nor to augment or substract from the tools, AI and general settings.

We may well see new "beasties", after all, the nature gods did give us the Bugbeasts, ratmen, treebeasties etc. So new problems, antagonists etc. will probably appear.

But the question is WHAT DOES GARRETT REALLY NEED in the way of tools. The answer is NOTHING HE DOES NOT ALREADY HAVE.

"Realism" is not the name of the game. The setting, the interaction of magic, technology, and physics are not "Real". Adding things for "Realism" is laughable. The world of Garrett, is NOT REAL and has no need to attempt to be.

So back to square one. Garrett NEEDS ABSO-DAMN-LUTELY NOTHING, IN THE WAY OF TOOLS, HE DOES NOT ALREADY POSSESS.

Fatherwoodsie
29th Jul 2009, 23:05
yes, and garrett doesnt need half the stuff he already has. you can probably beat the game emptyhanded without ever pulling a blackjack

theBlackman
30th Jul 2009, 00:04
yes, and garrett doesnt need half the stuff he already has. you can probably beat the game emptyhanded without ever pulling a blackjack

Too true! Many, myself included have done many of the missions in exactly that fashion, using NONE of the tools on hand, including the good old bean basher.

Another point I rant on: You should not try to "Beat" the game. You should "Play" it, enjoy it, finish it, of course, and improve your skills to "beat" your self. Thief, played as intended, is excellent for making you think, plan, develop patience and self discipline.

thefatsnowman
30th Jul 2009, 08:51
I would certainly agree with that - the less equipment the better! For me, most of the fun comes from using as little as possible other than thieving tools (lockpicks!).

As for more City - yes bloody please!

Flashart
30th Jul 2009, 12:22
There's been new pieces of equipment introduced or removed in each game. New isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if it replicates an older piece of gear, it just helps to keep things "evolving". A birdcall might lure AI towards you, a noisemaker arrow away from you (unless you fired it at your feet). But it's no hardship to have both available, or a version of either.

esme
30th Jul 2009, 12:47
I find jumping up and down on a noisy surface is an effective lure, I found a use for Garretts jimmy choos :D

Fatherwoodsie
30th Jul 2009, 15:31
can we do this democraticaly. can somebody please turn this thread into a poll asking what does garrett need? and one of the choices being absolutley nothing more

the_steved
30th Jul 2009, 16:14
Too true! Many, myself included have done many of the missions in exactly that fashion, using NONE of the tools on hand, including the good old bean basher.

Another point I rant on: You should not try to "Beat" the game. You should "Play" it, enjoy it, finish it, of course, and improve your skills to "beat" your self. Thief, played as intended, is excellent for making you think, plan, develop patience and self discipline.

For me from the first demo of Thief the dark project to Thief 2, I played both ways setting the difficulty to normal killing everybody in sight and playing on expert where you can't kill any human but it Thief 2 you could always disabled the mechanical beasts... so to me what was fun was trapping the guards sometimes by putting well place mine on the ground and killing 3 or 4 guards at the same time... but I do realise that we do not want necessarily more action its just if your looking for action well you should be able to find it somewhere in the game either in a mission where your force to kill someone by poisoning it's drink and you need to force your way out or something... YOU GUYS NEED TO PUT BACK GARRET'S SWORD ITS A MOST THAT LITTLE DAGGER YOU PUT IN THIEF 3 SUCKS HARD... I didn't even like the sneaking behind mechanics and killing people with the dagger thats for the blackjack... Go get the people from looking Glass their vision for the game was exquisite... I lived in Montreal and unfortunately I work in finance but I aslo worked for Ubisoft 3 years ago. I would love to be part of a discussion group on how to make this game the best in the series...

gryphos
30th Jul 2009, 16:41
I find myself largely in agreement with jtr on the majority of issues discussed in these threads, but I have to say, I think fatsnowman has a point here.

As has been noted by many, counter to suggestions about nastier weapons/killing moves/combat options, Thief is not supposed to be a combat game, but a stealth game. Again and again, in TDP and TMA, Garrett's code of honor (such as it is) includes not killing, or only killing in self defense. But obviously, he has to be prepared for the possibility that the stealthy routine goes south and he has to make a run for it. There are several ways this can be accomplished by old means: just outrunning the foe (and he's a superior sprinter), flashbombing and running, climbing, fighting, or dropping a mine. Each of these shows an increasing level of violence. Now I'm OK with violence being incorporated in the game in a pinch, but if there is a way that it can be reduced great, and if there is a tactical way to limit confrontations great. To whit, the idea of caltrops - an item in a spread pattern that blocks the progress of oncoming enemies without killing them. It hampers but doesn't kill. I think this is well within the spirit of the game, and actually more in line with Garrett's character than mines which should really only be used as last resorts, or for blowing up gates as per T1.

Furthermore, I'm operating from the assumption that as great as T1&T2 were (still two of my all time fav games), I don't think that they can't be improved. I think that ideas of improved mantling and vertical movement design go hand in hand with the idea of improved AI pursuit capabilities as have been noted in other threads. As such improved balancing factors like pursuit limiters (eg. caltrops) is well within the scope of the game without just adding new superfluous killing toys. As for subing caltrops for mines, I'd say it depends on what the mission calls for as to what is available for the loadout. Human guards warrant caltrops as a pursuit deterrent, while iron beasts would call for mines. Or mines might be the required tool for an armored steam wagon heist, while caltrops would be useless. Does the game need them? No. But then, the same could be asked of mines.

Fatherwoodsie
30th Jul 2009, 16:47
all garrett needs to kill is a sword, for close combat in which there is no other escape. and a carefully placed broadhead arrow to the head. and thats it

Flashart
30th Jul 2009, 17:03
I agree that the Stealth elements should always take precedent over the combat. Really I'd like to see "defensive" only type weapons. It seems to me ludicrous that Garrett, who is scrupulous about stealth would want to use a mine that makes a big bang. Obviously, he doesn't have to be near it when it goes off but it would still attract attention. Howabout substituting the explosive mine for a fast acting "Acid Mine" it would stop the living and the mechanical, yet be silent, emitting say a cloud of extremely corrosive acid. The living choke so they can't scream, and the mechanical just shut down.
Caltrops again, seem to make sense, you're being pursued, throw those down and it immediately stops the guards in their tracks.
I'm currently replaying Deus Ex. A lot of guards run to sound alarms. I did think if this occurred in T4 how about Bolus as a non lethal way of bringing them down at a distance, then blackjacking them?
It's not really a serious suggestion, but I reckon it would be fun to do.

esme
30th Jul 2009, 17:39
you don't use mines everywhere because of the loud noise they make attracting attention

however in some circumstances that same loud noise is a useful distraction

also mines can be used to open unpickable doors

mines are useful but you need to be aware of their drawbacks when using them

and if we have caltrops are we also going to have priests - metal insoles for boots that "save our soles"

a standard bolas is a pretty lethal weapon in the right hands too, a head shot will first strangle you preventing you from calling for help and then either smash your skull with the weights or break your neck, either way it's hardly non lethal

Humphery Kynaston
30th Jul 2009, 21:49
What does Garrett really need?

He needs RUN, WALK, RETREAT, LEAN R/L/F, CROUCH, STAND, JUMP.

He has that. Smoother controls could be implemented, but the current set works.

Equipment:
A bow. The one he has works fine if you learn how to use it. No upgrade needed.
Arrows:
Broadheads. Useful for distracting AI, testing surfaces, exploding mines, and of course, Killing beasties. No improvement needed.


Rope arrows. Nearly indispensible. Handy for reaching difficult areas; bypassing the anticipated route of travel; can be used in place of broadheads against enemies. Allow the player to use imaginative solutions to some problems. No improvement needed.



concerning these two arrows I think they need a bit of refining just a suggestion here I would like to see the cutting effect of an arrow implemented ie cutting a rope that maybe a heavy object is attached
I would love to see an ability to string the rope arrow between two points and the ability to hand over hand across it would prevent having to rope hop in a lot of places and give a interesting way to access places previously un explorable

theBlackman
30th Jul 2009, 22:03
concerning these two arrows I think they need a bit of refining just a suggestion here I would like to see the cutting effect of an arrow implemented ie cutting a rope that maybe a heavy object is attached
I would love to see an ability to string the rope arrow between two points and the ability to hand over hand across it would prevent having to rope hop in a lot of places and give a interesting way to access places previously un explorable

The idea of a rope between two adjacent trees, rooftops and so on is one I would also like to see.

The "cutting" broadhead is not a bad idea, but is not a true-life physical possiblity. But then GARRETT and THIEF are not "True-Life". So, I wouldn't complain if it showed up.
In reality, the "cut the rope" trick has been used in movies, but when tried by experts with both guns and bows, has proven to be a two or four shot operation. The "cut with a single shot", bullet or arrow, has never worked.

It works with string or a thin wire but not with a rope sturdy enough to hold a few hundred pounds. Common rope that is. Not speciality climbing or rigging nylon/dacron braids that are 3/8 to 1/2 inch woven cored. And at that, stranded core climbing ropes with woven dacron sheaths probably would not cut with a single shot either.

Vae
31st Jul 2009, 00:12
I like the idea of the THIEF world becoming more manipulable and it responding dynamically and naturally to the elements and other inanimate objects. Ropes on fire, water responding to gravity and the like would be great. Think of all the fun, creative options it would give you. An enhanced physics environment in THIEF is a natural extension of its core design, and is a perfect example of something new and wonderful for THIEF whilst preserving its sanctity.

Vae
31st Jul 2009, 01:36
:lol: That would be great...think of all the unique mini-stories players would have to share, along with huge replay value. Don't worry about important infrastructure being burnt down. The devs could just make that critical wooden beam just burn for a while and then become charred. This should be one of the select ideas where the devs focus a lot of attention. Imagine the possibilities.

LordGervasius
31st Jul 2009, 02:12
great post.

FWIW I agree 100%.

The flashbombs were and upgrade in TDS but aside from that I agree.

Flashart
31st Jul 2009, 07:46
You could still use acid to burn through a lock silently rather than an explosive. Using a mine to "attract" attention is a little overkill as Garrett has a number of ways of doing that anyway.
I take the point about bolus being lethal, I imagined just aiming at the legs, but at the head, strangulation and KO all in one go, what's not to like? (It was never meant for serious consideration)
Hasn't "Alone In The Dark" experimented with fire starting/ controlling ? I only saw the bad reviews.
As for cutting ropes, maybe a large "4 edged" broadhead would cover any angle, or there's an acid arrow, "batarang", maybe even a chipmunk lashed to a shaft....

Pedrovsky
5th Feb 2010, 20:23
My Personal thought is that Thief 4 just need to have the thief 2 Weapons and Gadgets, no gloves to climb walls. Thief 2 is for me aside from presently the outdated graphics and sounds, the perfect game.

:thumbsup::thumb::thumb:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Feb 2010, 22:56
My Personal thought is that Thief 4 just need to have the thief 2 Weapons and Gadgets, no gloves to climb walls. Thief 2 is for me aside from presently the outdated graphics and sounds, the perfect game.

:thumbsup::thumb::thumb:



^
To put it briefly: I agree.

weaponswinger
26th Dec 2010, 06:44
What does Garrett really need?

He needs RUN, WALK, RETREAT, LEAN R/L/F, CROUCH, STAND, JUMP.

He has that. Smoother controls could be implemented, but the current set works.



I would add TIPTOE to this. Here's what I envision:

RUN - should be about as fast as anybody else in the game running after Garrett (presumably with modern technology they can make some guards faster than others), is noisy because you bump into things, equipments clatters around, and so on

WALK - should match the walking speed of other characters but be a good deal quieter because Garrett doesn't stop around and ask when someone's going to bring him his dinner, that's what he'd like to know.

TIPTOE - should allow Garrett to move soundlessly across all floor types and be considerably slower than a walk.

Most people can tiptoe silently. Also in TDP it is possible to move soundlessly across any floor type by tapping the walk button without holding it long enough for the first footstep; I would just want to add the option of simply holing a button down. If Garrett can't tiptoe any faster than you can move him by lurching around with that method I don't think it makes the game easier, just more ergonomic.

weaponswinger
26th Dec 2010, 06:55
The idea of a rope between two adjacent trees, rooftops and so on is one I would also like to see.

The "cutting" broadhead is not a bad idea, but is not a true-life physical possiblity. But then GARRETT and THIEF are not "True-Life". So, I wouldn't complain if it showed up.
In reality, the "cut the rope" trick has been used in movies, but when tried by experts with both guns and bows, has proven to be a two or four shot operation. The "cut with a single shot", bullet or arrow, has never worked.

It works with string or a thin wire but not with a rope sturdy enough to hold a few hundred pounds. Common rope that is. Not speciality climbing or rigging nylon/dacron braids that are 3/8 to 1/2 inch woven cored. And at that, stranded core climbing ropes with woven dacron sheaths probably would not cut with a single shot either.

I think the fire arrow rather than the broadhead arrow would be better for this purpose.

xDarknessFallsx
26th Dec 2010, 22:13
--

weaponswinger
27th Dec 2010, 06:41
Garrett needs "retreat"? What would that be?

Tiptoe? I think the Creep modifier is good enough. You're aware it exists, right? Just making sure. I don't think there should be a perfectly silent function.

I would like a crawl ability to hide under beds and stuff.

Right, Creep is what I meant and as far as I could tell it made Garrett perfectly silent. I just wanted to pick a name that wasn't associated with TDS, it conjurs strong feelings in this community.

Blackman was very specific with what he thought Garrett needed and that particular move was absent from his list, but I think it's necessary. The player can remain unseen in bright areas by moving while a guard isn't looking. You are not, however, free to make noise while the guard isn't listening. Instead, Garrett has to have some ability to act without making noise, and he had in TDP and TDS.

weaponswinger
27th Dec 2010, 20:45
I never played TMA. Can I borrow yours? :)

I absolutely agree, but I also think that the player should get to move slowly and silently without a disposable tool so that one is never at an impasse if they didn't save their moss arrows for an unforseen obstacle later in the level.

Vae
27th Dec 2010, 22:46
I never played TMA. Can I borrow yours? :)

You're really missing out...Buy it (http://www.amazon.com/Thief-II-Metal-Age-pc/dp/B000KNCV36/ref=pd_sim_vg_14)


I absolutely agree, but I also think that the player should get to move slowly and silently without a disposable tool so that one is never at an impasse if they didn't save their moss arrows for an unforseen obstacle later in the level.

That's the equivalent of saying that the player should be able to snuff out torches just in case they run out of water arrows. This would circumvent the sonic challenge, just like TDS did with the auto-silent crouch.

Part of playing THIEF is effectively managing ones inventory, and improvising a solution when necessary. THIEF should encourage the application of creative intelligence, rather than allow one to take the easy way out.

weaponswinger
28th Dec 2010, 05:33
Thanks for the link! I'll let you know how it goes.

The thing about torches is you can move through the light while a guard's back is turned. This is not the same as shrouding the entire the level in darkness. There must always be a risk of being heard, but you must always be able to sneak past guards somehow. The game could do this by, for instance, always starting Garrett with just enough moss arrows to squeak by or putting a silent path in the game but these give linearity to the game by making a certain path the "right" one. As you said, you need to be able to improvise a solution. I would do this in areas such as Constantine's tiled hell by shooting an arrow down the hall and then moving very slowly. The only problem is that the biggest risk is I would hold the button down too long and make a footstep, then get heard. In my opinion the challenge should come from the timing - will I make it to the shadow before he turns around? - rather than working with the interface. I would have preferred a button that I could hold down which would give me the same speed but more reliability.

You can try it yourself too - see how quickly you can move without make any noise (footsteps, jingling keys, whatever). I think Garrett should be ably to move that silently that quickly.

Platinumoxicity
28th Dec 2010, 09:42
I would do this in areas such as Constantine's tiled hell by shooting an arrow down the hall and then moving very slowly. The only problem is that the biggest risk is I would hold the button down too long and make a footstep, then get heard. In my opinion the challenge should come from the timing - will I make it to the shadow before he turns around? - rather than working with the interface. I would have preferred a button that I could hold down which would give me the same speed but more reliability.

The place where everything is tiled floors is one where you need to use all your moss arrows to get around undetected. The silent crouch mode where you slowly wiggle your way forward is a bug exploit, not a gameplay feature. If you don't have enough moss arrows to pass that part without being detected, you need to think of a different strategy. As noisy as the tiled floors are they aren't infinitely noisy, and when guards are sufficiently far away no one can hear you.

weaponswinger
28th Dec 2010, 12:13
Yep, I think I have to agree with that one. I've never found myself in a position where there was no way through. Guess Garrett really does have everything he needs!

Platinumoxicity
29th Dec 2010, 18:57
Yeah, even playing the Bank for the first time, having started with TMA, I never found the tile paralyzing or insurmountable with the timing of the patrols and overall resources, etc.

Especially since the level was designed to only require you to finish the main objective. There was no loot requirement. That made it possible to ghost the mission on expert even though the level was filled with noisy floors and excessive security. If you wanted to get all the loot, you'd need to sacrifice some amount of discretion in your strategy.

Now, Masks... that's a different thing. The highest loot requirement of the entire series in a level filled with patrols and security. The only difference was that navigation was easier and with more options.

clock12345
3rd Jan 2011, 13:09
Maybe the flash bomb should blind half of the screen because garret only has one human eye and the second one is mechanic eye.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jan 2011, 13:48
I think the way the flashbomb was made in TDS was good. There's no reason for Garrett to have his eyes open when the flashbomb activates. It makes throwing the bombs bad for the player. In T1 and T2 you either needed to drop the bomb when looking away or throw the bomb and immediately turn your head away. That's not good gameplay in my opinion.

JFSOCC
3rd Jan 2011, 15:07
What Garett really needs is his cynicism/sarcasm, his cloak, and a dump he calls home.

You could argue he needs his Lockpicks but he's done without them in the past
You could argue he needs his blackjack, but the best players will argue that it's a crutch for inexpert players
You could argue he needs his bow with special arrows, but *I* argue that if other tools are available to do the same those could replace the bow.

But really, that's all Garett needs. (personally I'll include all the equipment I just mentioned, however)

Nate
4th Jan 2011, 04:12
I've mentioned before that I liked the idea of having the choice of leaving your bow at home and just throwing crystals at MUCH shorter range...but that you would get a tiny stealth bonus for not having carrying a bow.

Hypevosa
4th Jan 2011, 09:07
I wonder how many people have managed to spike a moss crystal through their foot while walking through a garden XD.

Platinumoxicity
4th Jan 2011, 11:12
I wonder how many people have managed to spike a moss crystal through their foot while walking through a garden XD.

None, because you can fire them with a bow right into someone without harming them. :D Only when you apply strong enough force on them they release their energy that accelerates growth of any stray spores or seeds in their immediate area. That's my theory anyway. Or that's how it should be. Water, Air and Fire are elements, moss is not. The world is not composed of water, fire air and moss. Earth is an element and moss, mushrooms and plants use the power of that element to grow. There is no moss within the crystal, it's just the power of that element that allows spores of moss to grow in places where it's normally not possible. And spores are everywhere.

sorry, got a little of topic there. :)

Nate
7th Jan 2011, 19:14
I liked how in TDS if you nailed someone with a moss arrow, they would chock on the stuff for a moment.

Nate
8th Jan 2011, 01:07
Yeah, I did it to just try it out....but then stuck to ghosting most of the time. Flashbombs really don't do much for me....well, except when I got fed up with the creepy puppets and killed them off.

GarrettSoul
5th Feb 2012, 14:57
Hi, just want to make a quick wish for this thread. I havent read all the replies as I just joined but when i saw this thread, I had to say it.

A GOSH DARN CAPE! and one that sways in the wind naturally, not blocky.

I meant for the in game 3D model. It was the very first thing i wanted Garrett to have eversince TDP. In TDP I was slightly dissapointed as we were unable to see garrett in a mirror with the cape on. But at that time the game was already revolutionary in many aspect so it didnt matter. Then T2, just blocky characters, but still loved it and the cape didnt matter. Then TDS came out Garrett still hasnt a cape in the third person view! What the heck.

Excuse if anyone has already posted this but it will take sometime for me to go through all the posts. I'm reading them all now but just wanted to get this out for a very.. very.. long time now.... eversince my internet was downloading through my expensive $300 28.8k dial up modem. yeah... Hardcore. Take for instance assassins creed models the cloths were well done in my opinion..

kamilavalamp
20th Feb 2012, 18:55
He Only needs what was in the first 2 games, the tools, the arrows, the potions, he needs nothing extra, Garrett never needed a ton of equipment because he always used his wits to outsmart the bad guys. Almost all the original missions were ghost-able where you never needed any item. The Game Is A First Person Sneaker, where the point of it is for them to never know you were there. I will be mad if any items get added unless they are for lore (like the talismans, the Books, the keys, The Notes, The Scrolls with Riddles and things, fruit, boxes to throw and distract guards) those sorts of things. Keep It so that you can drop boxes and stuff on the guards heads because that was always fun the first 2 games haha.

tarvis79
20th Feb 2012, 18:58
I don't think Garrett's (or the new protagonist's) suite of equipment and abilities needs much if any tweaking. What I'm really interested in is the limits to which modern technology can push the size and scope of new levels, and some serious upgrades in the sophistication of the AI. I'm also very interested in pulverizing what little linearity there still is by having some huge City hubs with real meat on their bones. The ones in TDS were skeletal, but even they were nice. I think Hengsha in DX:HR is a great starting point for the style I'm looking for.

Reliant
24th Feb 2012, 21:39
I fully agree with the opinion to leave every item as it is.
But to be honest, the player should have the possibility to play the way he liked/used to. you could choose e.g. at the start of a mission if you want to take that handy daggers, that maybe allows you to crack some doors where your lockpicks failed or provides any other advantages like moving a little faster. Or you take that fat longsword allowing you to devastate that nasty group of guards that crossed your way like in Thief 2. Giving the ability to choose your equipment and your playstyle (not doing both at once!) should satisfy most players.

Tryst
25th Feb 2012, 08:22
I fully agree with the opinion to leave every item as it is.
But to be honest, the player should have the possibility to play the way he liked/used to. you could choose e.g. at the start of a mission if you want to take that handy daggers, that maybe allows you to crack some doors where your lockpicks failed or provides any other advantages like moving a little faster. Or you take that fat longsword allowing you to devastate that nasty group of guards that crossed your way like in Thief 2. Giving the ability to choose your equipment and your playstyle (not doing both at once!) should satisfy most players.

If they did change anything about the game, I would really like a legacy option so we could opt to play the game as if it were a a mission pack for TMA.

While I'm on mission packs, it would be nice to have some sort of editor to create FM's easily. Many games are including that option now as it sells the title for far longer. Some people don't like the game itself but buy it purely to play a FM that may not even be true to lore, (Garrett has a gun and the City watch are gun toting KGB style police for example).

If we could mod everything from clothing styles, body meshes and even weapons as well as maps, it would be an awesome game with so many mods that it would be going for years. Just check out the Skyrim modding community on the Nexus Forums to see what I mean, everything from new character and NPC models, clothing styles and weapons to HD texture upgrades and even new animations.

Xalxitz
18th Mar 2012, 16:18
I would love if thief got more realistic AI behavior. You need to get a hard punishment if you aren't able to stay undetected.