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hellwalker
10th Jun 2009, 09:46
First off all watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW-CEfKNd0c

My question is do you think Garrett and Thief universe has dramatically changed at the end of thief trilogy?

EDIT: had to fit poll options in 100 character limit :(

Yaphy
10th Jun 2009, 09:54
I hope he hasnt changed to much. Its good if Garrett still is how we remember him. But its bad if he is exactly the same. Somehow he must have changed through all that happend to him. About the ending of T3, it might just have been fun for him to say those words to the girl because its almost the same thing that happend to himself. He dont have to mean that he wants to kidnap her and make her a thief.

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 09:56
Do you mean that the events of TDS have dramatically changed Garrett or has he slowly changed during the events of the entire trilogy? I won't vote before I get that one clear.

hellwalker
10th Jun 2009, 09:56
He has become Keeper, the way I see TDS last cutscene.

@Platinumoxicity
Events of the trilogy culminating in TDS ending

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 10:08
Garrett hasn't become a keeper. He was "the True keeper"(Which has nothing to do with a normal keeper) all the way from the day he left the keepers. He has been the center of the prophecies the entire time, but now that all of the keeper stuff is gone, he's free to live his life again. Garrett has seen how the world has tried to tear itself apart, and the City has had to rely on sinister forces to keep itself from getting destroyed. Garrett has always been the center of events, and he's really grown tired of it. He has learned to care about the world more than he used to, but since he seems to be the only one who does, he has realized that it's futile. Evil prevails.

P.S ("True keeper" means everything that the "real keepers" never were. The keepers never got anything done, they were worthless, so the only man who ever shaped the events, got anything done, was the only true keeper there ever was.)

So I voted for 2.

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 10:17
Garrett has been on a journey through the three games that has certainly changed him, but exactly what he has changed into is not clear.

I don't really have an option to vote for here.

Flashart
10th Jun 2009, 10:54
It's a slightly strange question. Garrett will still be Garrett but events must have affected him. However the city has changed greatly. Would Garrett react to the changes by reverting to type or following a new path.
I think he would reluctantly have to follow some of the changes, he has now a responsibility of "True Keeper" of the Balance. I hate to say it but a lot of these sort of narratives end with the "hero" sacrificing themselves for the great good. This should not happen. Garrett's wiser than that.

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 12:51
It's a slightly strange question. Garrett will still be Garrett but events must have affected him. However the city has changed greatly. Would Garrett react to the changes by reverting to type or following a new path.
I think he would reluctantly have to follow some of the changes, he has now a responsibility of "True Keeper" of the Balance. I hate to say it but a lot of these sort of narratives end with the "hero" sacrificing themselves for the great good. This should not happen. Garrett's wiser than that.

He didn't suddenly change to "True keeper", don't you understand? He always was the only true keeper, the only person who affected the prophecies. The "real keepers" were "false" keepers since they were corrupt and ultimately powerless. Garrett isn't the "True keeper" because of the things he's done, Garrett has done the things he's done because he is the "True keeper".

hellwalker
10th Jun 2009, 13:08
He didn't suddenly change to "True keeper", don't you understand? He always was the only true keeper, the only person who affected the prophecies. The "real keepers" were "false" keepers since they were corrupt and ultimately powerless. Garrett isn't the "True keeper" because of the things he's done, Garrett has done the things he's done because he is the "True keeper".

yes you have a good point there, but realizing and accepting this must have changed him some way imo.

Flashart
10th Jun 2009, 13:10
Yes, I understand perfectly, but I think he's had it made abundantly clear to him that for all the Keepers facade he is truly "alone" in his duty (Having it "branded" on him). Seems to to me he was happy to let them tinker about with the ways of the city while he got on with his life. The Keepers may not have been "ultimately powerful" but they had power, now he has all the responsibility dumped on his shoulders. (Not that it was never there in the first place).
What I was trying to suggest that Garrett would most like to return to his secretive life, but I'm guessing the changes of the city won't/ can't allow that. Do you understand that? Or are you of the opinion he's "the chosen one" and his "destiny" is to be "standing up for truth and justice" wherever "evil may rear it's ugly head"?

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 13:16
Yes, I understand perfectly, but I think he's had it made abundantly clear to him that for all the Keepers facade he is truly "alone" in his duty. Seems to to me he was happy to let them tinker about with the ways of the city while he got on with his life. The Keepers may not have been "ultimately powerful" but they had power, now he has all the responsibility dumped on his shoulders. (Not that it was never there in the first place).
What I was trying to suggest that Garrett would most like to return to his secretive life, but I'm guessing the changes of the city won't/ can't allow that. Do you understand that? Or are you of the opinion he's "the chosen one" and his "destiny" is to be "standing up for truth and justice" wherever "evil may rear it's ugly head"?

No I'm for the opinion "The keepers try to convince Garrett that he's some sort of chosen one but Garrett doesn't give a rat's ass and wants to be left alone for a change. And there's no more "responsibility" to be had because the keeper stuff is over. The supernatural "fate" stuff and prophecy BS is gone. Garrett is a normal person for the first time in his life."

Flashart
10th Jun 2009, 13:19
The branding of his hand is meaningless?

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 13:33
The branding of his hand is meaningless?

It was just "In your face" thing to the keepers to point out that Garrett was always the one and they didn't realise it until it was too late.

Zahr Dalsk
10th Jun 2009, 14:36
Bugger TDS' attempted character changes. I'd rather see Looking Glass Garrett than Ion Storm Garrett when it comes to Thief 4.

Hamadriyad
10th Jun 2009, 14:53
He is a keeper now.Garrett said it, not someone else.

DarthEnder
10th Jun 2009, 16:39
Yeah, the end cutscene makes it pretty clear that Garrett considers himself a Keeper.


It was just "In your face" thing to the keepers to point out that Garrett was always the one and they didn't realise it until it was too late.What are you talking about? The Keepers always knew he was the one. Or at least, Artemis. It was Garrett that refused to believe it.

Thieffanman
10th Jun 2009, 16:42
Has Garrett changed? Yes. There are many subjective interpretations about the brand on his hand, and what it could signify now that the Keepers are in disarray. Frankly, I hope this is expanded upon in T4 to some degree.

Has the Thief universe changed? Absolutely. The city layout was exposed to be a giant super-glyph; this had to have been noticed by its citizens, from the craziest Pagan to the most righteous Hammerite (at least, the ones who are up at night ;)). I hope this gets expanded upon as well.

My own hope is that T4 goes beyond the boundaries of the city into other cities; possibly other countries. I think it's time Garrett expanded his business out into the larger world :).

--Thieffanman

DarthEnder
10th Jun 2009, 16:43
city layout was exposed to be a giant super-glyph; this had to have been noticed by its citizens, from the craziest Pagan to the most righteous Hammerite (at least, the ones who are up at night ;)),. I hope this gets expanded upon as well. How would they have noticed? Even if they were up and about then, all they know is the street lit up for a second. What would make them think the street was actually part of a giant city-wide glyph?

Thieffanman
10th Jun 2009, 18:11
How would they have noticed? Even if they were up and about then, all they know is the street lit up for a second. What would make them think the street was actually part of a giant city-wide glyph?

I'll explain: You're right-- no one would know it was a city-wide glyph, in the sense that the player knows it's a glyph. Would they notice the streets lit up? Yes. Some would eventually figure out that they lit up in a design, which is frankly the word I should have used in lieu of 'glyph' when referring to the city's people noticing it.

Me theorizing, here: Only after some time had passed would people figure out that certain streets lit up, and some didn't. Word would get out, as word often does in small towns and cities. Some would eventually figure out that they lit up in a pattern. Would they figure out it was a 'glyph' in the way that the player knows it? No-- that's for the player to know. But I'm assuming that they would figure out that the streets lit up in a pattern, and some, possibly finding the reason why they lit up (*possibly*, word would get out about glyphs, but that is unknown). Where that could possibly go in T4 is anyone's guess.

. . .and of course, some people in the city would notice, and just not care :).

--Thieffanman

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 18:54
Yeah, the end cutscene makes it pretty clear that Garrett considers himself a Keeper.

What are you talking about? The Keepers always knew he was the one. Or at least, Artemis. It was Garrett that refused to believe it.

And it would be nice if he still kept refusing to believe it and not change his behavior in any way, thus irritating the keepers, just like he always does. ;)

Garrett shouldn't change his life in any way now that he knows the truth. I mean, being a freelance keeper (librarian) doesn't bring any food to the table. Garrett has changed, but slowly, through the entire trilogy. His character didn't just suddenly jump in any direction as you can see. He was mocking the keepers till the very end and nothing should make him hate them any less than he's hated so far.

That branding in his hand doesn't change anything. I don't want Garrett to become any more keeperish. The way Garrett always mocks the keepers and doesn't take them seriously never gets old. :) And now that the keepers' powers are gone and they were found corrupted, Garrett should take their job even less seriously. The City doesn't need the keepers anymore. The City doesn't need a keeper anymore. The City has been destroyed or almost destroyed numerous times when the keepers have been around. We should see whether that happens now when they're gone, and welcome a new faction to save the City, if it chooses to drive itself to the brink of destruction again. The unwritten times aren't necessarily a bad thing. Saving the world has started getting old.

"At first we lived without hope, for a hopeless future was written for us. The future never came, but instead of it, doubt but also the hope that was missing. We decided to stay and watch."
--former keeper Artemus

Captain567
10th Jun 2009, 19:35
It's true, Garrett thought the Keepers ways were wrong and did not like them. He did leave them, after all. And now that it turns out he's the true keeper, the shining (well, kind of) example of what a keeper should be, he'll resent them and their order even more.

Garrett will be different, maybe a bit more in tune with the city, but he will not be a keeper.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 21:03
He's not stupid enough to act like the old keepers and make all the same mistakes they did, I.E. abusing glyphs, not taking any action to prevent disaster, attempting to force a balance on everything, etc. He's also not going to start recruiting everyone to become a keeper, or probably really do much aside from what he always has done. I think he's probably become a little more compassionate than he was. It starts out in the first game that he doesn't really give a damn about anyone but himself, and his motive for going against Constantine was revenge for himself. In TMA he does want to prevent disaster, but he doesn't want to get himself or viktoria killed, and so he want's to wait till they have better info, but then he goes back because he cares about viktoria and doesn't want her to die, i.e. he cares for one other person, and revenge for that person is part of his motive. In TDS he activates the final glyph to save the city from an ancient evil, i.e. he is protecting everyone. He gradually goes from selfish to more altruistic motives towards the end of the series so far. I think in T4 Garrett will still be dry, sarcastic, and a master thief, but he'll probably actually give a damn about other people more than in the first games, i.e. if he sees a bunch of men cornering a woman in a back alley he'll take care of them, and then leave... not a word to the lady, just continue making his way back to Noble X's place to steal some pretty trinket.

If they wanted to they could probably make the game such that you could have little choices like this that effect how the game ends. Is it none of your business, or would you step in because you had the ability to? I think the Garrett from the first 2 games would just ignore the situation, but that the Garrett at the end of T3 would take action. At least, that's my view of how Garrett has changed.

Crypto
10th Jun 2009, 21:05
I know everyone wants him to be the same old Garrett, but if you look at the last cutscene of TDS then you really know he has changed and probably become a Keeper. It sucks, but it is what it is until Eidos takes us up on our petition to portray the end of TDS in a different light.

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 21:40
He had changed by the end of Metal Age, in my opinion. It just took him some time to get over his particular version of the I'm-not-the-chosen-one emo rant that all heroes have to go through.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 21:45
I still remember when you find and read the note from the assisstant librarian in masks level. "Ash you are a bastard..."

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 22:41
Garrett's position as the "True keeper" goes like this: He is the balancing influence, never pushing any event towards either extreme, but pulling them towards the balance, without even realising that. He never helps any faction, that's why the factions can't get an uneven advantage over each other. He steals from everyone, which ultimately equalizes the wealth and power status of different parties. He doesn't even need to try to be a keeper when he is. There is only one problem. If he chooses to break his rules, pick a side, or become enemies with some party in particular, he himself becomes the cause of imbalance. This could well be a plot point in T4. ;)

Crypto
10th Jun 2009, 22:43
And it'd be a damn good plot point if the Keepers return, powerless but cunning as ever, in a blaze of cloak-and-dagger glory.

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 22:48
And it'd be a damn good plot point if the Keepers return, powerless but cunning as ever, in a blaze of cloak-and-dagger glory.

They could be a faction of investigators that eavesdrop important meetings and analyze documents, history and keep record on rumors. Then they could combine the gathered information to reveal conspiracies or something.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 22:58
I wouldn't be surprised if they attempted to go on as keepers, just without the glyph magic. Obviously alot would drop out, but some would see maintaining the balance important enough to stay. They would probably also try to inform Garrett if he was ever really needed.

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 23:14
I wouldn't be surprised if they attempted to go on as keepers, just without the glyph magic. Obviously alot would drop out, but some would see maintaining the balance important enough to stay. They would probably also try to inform Garrett if he was ever really needed.

They're also without the prophecies, so they haven't got a future to prevent. They have to investigate and anticipate instead of just reading what's going to happen and sit on their hands.

Thieffanman
10th Jun 2009, 23:19
They would probably also try to inform Garrett if he was ever really needed.

. . . or attempt to kill him (again) for wrecking their lives.

--Thieffanman

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 23:23
Yep, all the ones who didn't want to remain keepers would probably have it in for him. I wouldn't be surprised to have some random old lady assault me on the way to a job because I made her old XD There were others using the glyphs to stay young...

I'd also like to have an ex-enforcer come thank me for relieving them of the torment they had to go through. It's apparently not a happy process to become or be an enforcer...

CurtX
10th Jun 2009, 23:52
I voted for the last option. Let's pretend TDS never happened.

Terr
11th Jun 2009, 00:11
TDS didn't change Garrett much.

All it did was explain what was already happening throughout the series, and say: "Yeah, Garrett had the right idea."

About the only change for Garrett himself is that he can't fully reject all the prophetic/destiny stuff. He still probably doesn't like it, but it's not brushed off as insane mumblings.

ToMegaTherion
11th Jun 2009, 08:51
I liked it when he realised that running away from prophecies and pretending they didn't matter was clearly not being a particularly effective strategy, and that instead it was time to go on the offensive and actively cause the prophecies to come true :)