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View Full Version : Archery and Arrows: TDS vs Originals



Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 07:50
TDS made alot of changes with regards to arrows compared to the first 2 games, mainly:

1. Tracer trails - each arrow fired had a tracer trail... It was a flashy theatrical feature that wasn't realistic or necessary even, and I didn't find make the game any better, and shouldn't be in T4.

2. Elemental arrow heads were EVERYWHERE. In the original games you had a set amount of supplies to start with, and could buy more... then you could find maybe a few elemental arrows in each mission, but in TDS they were thrown at you at every turn practically, and the stores had infinite supplies. Because of the quantity there were, they needed to impose arrow restrictions, and nerf their abilities somewhat (mainly the gas arrow, whose effect was toned down dramatically, and wouldn't have to have been if they didn't want to justify making a gas bomb). In thief 4 I'd rather have heads be more sparse, than strict limitations on what I can carry. Maybe instead of a limit of each arrow type, we can carry 20 of each arrow head, but we can only carry X number of broad heads in our quiver, and we can use the arrowheads as we see fit. Reward the player for exploration and conserving their tools, by allowing them to keep arrow heads they find instead of "oh, another one that I don't need...".

3. The flight patterns of the best arrows were altered. Fire arrows and Gas arrows used to have a flat flight arc, not that I am complaining about having to aim, but the point was they were so expensive and so rare that the player was given a better chance to not waste them. I also liked the idea that the fire arrows created enough updraft to not have arc, and that the gas arrows had neutral buoyancy in air (or at least that's how I thought about it), because it was a cool idea. It was also fun to race your own arrows when you didn't draw back all the way, or even try to time hitting two people at the same time by firing one slow and then pulling all the way back for the second.

Something I did like was the guards choking on moss arrows, and the more complete looking spread they had. Maybe if they still choke people in T4 we can see other guards help by trying to do the Heimlich or something XD

Archery was something I held dear in thief, and was one of the reasons I took up the bow and actually competed in archery for a few years. I didn't like the flashy tracer trail the arrows left, liberal use of elementa heads, the caps put on them for their extreme availability, or the unnecessary changing of the cool and original flight patterns of the rarer arrows (fire and gas). what do you think?

Herr_Garrett
10th Jun 2009, 07:57
TDS made alot of changes with regards to arrows compared to the first 2 games, mainly:

1. Tracer trails - each arrow fired had a tracer trail... It was a flashy theatrical feature that wasn't realistic or necessary even, and I didn't find make the game any better, and shouldn't be in T4.

2. Elemental arrow heads were EVERYWHERE. In the original games you had a set amount of supplies to start with, and could buy more... then you could find maybe a few elemental arrows in each mission, but in TDS they were thrown at you at every turn practically, and the stores had infinite supplies. Because of the quantity there were, they needed to impose arrow restrictions, and nerf their abilities somewhat (mainly the gas arrow, whose effect was toned down dramatically, and wouldn't have to have been if they didn't want to justify making a gas bomb). In thief 4 I'd rather have heads be more sparse, than strict limitations on what I can carry. Maybe instead of a limit of each arrow type, we can carry 20 of each arrow head, but we can only carry X number of broad heads in our quiver, and we can use the arrowheads as we see fit. Reward the player for exploration and conserving their tools, by allowing them to keep arrow heads they find instead of "oh, another one that I don't need...".

3. The flight patterns of the best arrows were altered. Fire arrows and Gas arrows used to have a flat flight arc, not that I am complaining about having to aim, but the point was they were so expensive and so rare that the player was given a better chance to not waste them. I also liked the idea that the fire arrows created enough updraft to not have arc, and that the gas arrows had neutral buoyancy in air (or at least that's how I thought about it), because it was a cool idea. It was also fun to race your own arrows when you didn't draw back all the way, or even try to time hitting to people at the same time by firing one slow and then pulling all the way back for the second.

Something I did like was the guards choking on moss arrows, and the more complete looking spread they had. Maybe if they still choke people in T4 we can see other guards help by trying to do the Heimlich or something XD

Archery was something I held dear in thief, and was one of the reasons I took up the bow and actually competed in archery for a few years. I didn't like the flashy tracer trail the arrows left, liberal use of elementa heads, the caps put on them for their extreme availability, or the unnecessary changing of the cool and original flight patterns of the rarer arrows (fire and gas). what do you think?

I pretty much agree with this. Especially what you said in the last paragraph, I did the same :)

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 08:30
The arrows trails made it harder for me to see where my arrows went, which was annoying.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 08:33
The arrows trails made it harder for me to see where my arrows went, which was annoying.

YES that's very true. I also didn't like how broadheads didn't stick out of wood. the only thing you could shoot and retrieve your arrow was the archery target in your room (correct me if I'm wrong, I tried shooting at wood and it didn't work, maybe it was a fluke)

jtr7
10th Jun 2009, 08:43
In TDP/Gold, elemental crystals were often found in clusters, while in TDS they seemed evenly spread throughout each section.

In TDS the arrows made whistling noises as well as the trails, the noisemakers were firecrackers and bottle rockets in one plus irretrievable, the moss arrows made noise and got AIs' attention, the water arrows cracked open as well as splashed. Although I thought wine-glass tones for the crystals was a nice and interesting choice for a sound effect, I don't want the crystals to sing and glow to beckon me--no hand-holding!

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 08:57
I hated the way every elemental crystal glowed and they were everywhere. Water crystal should be like the ones in T1 and T2 and they should only be found in watery areas, preferably underwater. Fire crystals should give only a slight glow and they should only be found rarely in fireplaces and furnaces. Moss crystals should have a moldy and muddy pattern and they should only be found rarely on decaying wood and between moldy bricks, and also if they can choke the guards like in TDS, don't make the projectile sharp and deadly-looking like that, use the old "blob" style. Gas crystals should be like they were in the originals, with a slight haze around them, and they should only be very rarely found in varying pressure areas, like high altitudes and airvents.

Yaphy
10th Jun 2009, 09:49
I hated the way every elemental crystal glowed and they were everywhere.

absolutely! Even if they keep elemental arrows in the world to pick up, make them harder to find. It actally was even more visible then the loot glint. You could see them everywere in the dark.

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 10:20
Not to mention the reliable respawning all over the City. In fact, the more I think on it, the more I put the City Hub idea in that category of ideas that initially sound natural and obvious but after some thought cause all sorts of problems.

Flashart
10th Jun 2009, 10:46
I agree with most things said. I'd like more realistic looking elementals available in appropriate places and perhaps chests. No "arc" graphics. Limited arrow quivers. I'd also like a more "perpendicular" view if the bow sight rather than the isometric style of TDS.
If there's going to be a "horizontal" use for rope arrows (zip lines etc) it'd be cool to turn the bow to 90 degrees to facilitate this. (If say there was a tower with an open window that had a wooden beam above it you could a: Use the rope arrow conventionally from the courtyard below, or b: Create a zip line from a neighbouring tower. Ah, I just thought of a problem, if you'd secured the other end you wouldn't be able to retrieve it.Hmmm.
I liked the idea of a "firecracker" noise arrow but I know it wasn't popular so any type would do.
The only arrows that I'd like retrievable are rope arrows. Vine arrows that stick to a variety of surfaces I think would be real expensive/rare items so I'd like to have to work to obtain them.
Hopefully, if the levels are of suitable size I'd like archery done like Morrowind/Oblivion where you can get some serious distance shots.

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 20:25
See, the rope arrows in Thief gold and TMA I always believed to be magic, which was why the rope disintegrated when you pulled it out, and why that rope was able to be changed into a vine by viktoria. A simple little magic spell from our hand friends, ya know? I actually like that idea more than tying a rope onto an arrow, because that's not practical. ROPE IS HEAVY, and it would drastically effect your shot, especially vertical ones. I would prefer if in T4 the rope arrows returned, but kept their magical disintegrating rope property from the previous games when pulled. Think of the rope more as turning to dust and floating away (it would be a cool graphic as well).

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 23:10
See, the rope arrows in Thief gold and TMA I always believed to be magic, which was why the rope disintegrated when you pulled it out, and why that rope was able to be changed into a vine by viktoria. A simple little magic spell from our hand friends, ya know? I actually like that idea more than tying a rope onto an arrow, because that's not practical. ROPE IS HEAVY, and it would drastically effect your shot, especially vertical ones. I would prefer if in T4 the rope arrows returned, but kept their magical disintegrating rope property from the previous games when pulled. Think of the rope more as turning to dust and floating away (it would be a cool graphic as well).

There are things that you don't need to know, but you just had to wonder about that. Had to keep asking questions about the rope arrow, hmm? Now we're going to have to kill you. :naughty:

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 23:20
You'd fail your mission automatically if you did :P

Thieffanman
10th Jun 2009, 23:54
1. Tracer trails - each arrow fired had a tracer trail... It was a flashy theatrical feature that wasn't realistic or necessary even, and I didn't find make the game any better, and shouldn't be in T4.

The question then becomes, how to see where they travel in the dark? Or, if it's even necessary.

Personally, I liked seeing an arrow's trajectory. Without light, or in low or poor light, you can only hazard a guess as to where it landed, especially if you missed.


2. Elemental arrow heads were EVERYWHERE. In the original games you had a set amount of supplies to start with, and could buy more... then you could find maybe a few elemental arrows in each mission, but in TDS they were thrown at you at every turn practically, and the stores had infinite supplies.

. . .and they were expensive if you decided to buy them. In TDS, you had the option to buy them or find them, if you knew where they re-spawned in between each mission. I wouldn't say they were *everywhere*, but they were available if you knew where to look for them. This was handy for the times I was short of funds in the game.


Because of the quantity there were, they needed to impose arrow restrictions, and nerf their abilities somewhat (mainly the gas arrow, whose effect was toned down dramatically, and wouldn't have to have been if they didn't want to justify making a gas bomb).

There already existed a limit to the amount of arrows and types you could carry in TDS; are you suggesting limiting them even further?


3. The flight patterns of the best arrows were altered. Fire arrows and Gas arrows used to have a flat flight arc, not that I am complaining about having to aim, but the point was they were so expensive and so rare that the player was given a better chance to not waste them.

Arcing adds realism, though. Without getting into arguments about the possible poundage of Garrett's bow, it's pretty simple: the further you are from the target, the more arc you have to account for. As for gas and fire arrows: in the end it's up to the player to consider how they're best used. Me, I went through them enough to need to replenish them, which required stealing more loot to have cash to buy them.


Something I did like was the guards choking on moss arrows, and the more complete looking spread they had.

Agreed. Rather than looking at random green splotches appearing on the ground in T1 and T2, TDS actually made the moss arrows look like they sprouted *moss*. Plus, they were effective against people, too.


Archery was something I held dear in thief, and was one of the reasons I took up the bow and actually competed in archery for a few years. I didn't like the flashy tracer trail the arrows left, liberal use of elementa heads, the caps put on them for their extreme availability, or the unnecessary changing of the cool and original flight patterns of the rarer arrows (fire and gas). what do you think?

For the most part, I like the way arrows were handled in TDS. The expensive arrows made the player guess how to best use them, rather than waste them knowing they'd be easy to find. Arrow trails I found handy to guess how my broadhead flew when I aimed at a target in poor and/or no light. As for flat flight patterns: In the end, I could take them or leave them. Arcing provided for more realism, but a flat flight pattern would be a handy effect for 'magic' arrows like moss, fire, and water arrows.

I know I'm going against the popular thought, here, but then, I've admitted in several posts that I'm a fan of TDS. Should T4 be exactly like it? No. But there are some positive aspects that T4 could take from TDS-- and *if* the devs tune up archery, it would be interesting to see how they improve it.

--Thieffanman

P.S. I competed in archery as well; I was part of a group that practiced 500-year-old (read: European Renaissance-era) archery techniques. I used what basically amounted to a piece of wood with a string attached to it, shooting small sticks with feathers and metal points attached to them :). I wouldn't say I shot the same equipment that Garrett would, but I'd say I was much closer than a modern archer.

Nate
10th Jun 2009, 23:59
1. Lose the flight path trail of arrows.

2. Don't have elemental arrows lying about all over the place....they cost a fortune for some reason, but grow on trees all over the city??? That was just stupid.

3. Flight arcs on arrows should be the same/similar for all arrows...the super duper ones shouldn't fly level forever.

Caranfin
11th Jun 2009, 00:27
I pretty much agree with the first post in everything. I don't really care about the special trajectory for fire and gas arrows, though. I also hated how the crystals were shiny and basically told you they were there from dozens of meters away in TDS.


The question then becomes, how to see where they travel in the dark? Or, if it's even necessary.

Personally, I liked seeing an arrow's trajectory. Without light, or in low or poor light, you can only hazard a guess as to where it landed, especially if you missed.
I don't really care if I can't see where my arrows land. It just makes correcting your shots a bit more challenging. Plus, the arrow trail effect looked like crap.


the times I was short of funds in the game.
You were short of funds in TDS?


There already existed a limit to the amount of arrows and types you could carry in TDS; are you suggesting limiting them even further?
I think he's saying that TDS had the cap and nerfed some of the arrows because you could get insane amounts of them everywhere.


P.S. I competed in archery as well; I was part of a group that practiced 500-year-old (read: European Renaissance-era) archery techniques. I used what basically amounted to a piece of wood with a string attached to it, shooting small sticks with feathers and metal points attached to them :). I wouldn't say I shot the same equipment that Garrett would, but I'd say I was much closer than a modern archer.
Thief was a big reason why I joined my local primitive archery group as well. :D

Thieffanman
11th Jun 2009, 00:49
You were short of funds in TDS?

Yep. I constantly tried to max out the amount of equipment I needed, and I used it as much as possible. Hence, at certain points, I was short of funds.


I think he's saying that TDS had the cap and nerfed some of the arrows because you could get insane amounts of them everywhere.

. . . and here I was thinking the limits were enforced to add some type of limit to the amount a person could keep in a quiver, versus how available they were :).


Thief was a big reason why I joined my local primitive archery group as well. :D

I'll admit that I was in my primitive archery group for several years before I ever played TDP, TMA, and TDS, however the experience I had with them helps me judge games like "Thief" in terms of their portrayal of primitive archery.

Personally, I'd be interested in seeing Garrett wield weapons like a breakdown bow, pistol bow, or crossbow in T4, and the player having a choice of what to carry.

--Thieffanman

Hypevosa
11th Jun 2009, 01:36
I've got 25 grand in TDS right now... >_> I just find all my equipment instead of buying it...

I was implying that there wouldn't need to be odd and extreme caps (5 gas arrows, even though I could carry 15 fire, 25 water, and 20 moss, I'd rather choose my assortment, or just have 20 broadheads that I'd turn into whatever arrow I had the heads for, and have 20 maximum of each head...) if they'd just limit the equipment you could purchase, and not have constant respawns for the elementals, or at least not so many of them.

hellwalker
11th Jun 2009, 02:05
I prefer TDP/TMA style.
BTW u should make polls for topics like this. I like to study statistics about stuff like this

Hypevosa
11th Jun 2009, 02:39
I didn't make it a poll because I wanted to discuss multiple things, as opposed to voting on a single subject like whether gas and fire arrows shouldn't have arc like in the old games.

Yotun
11th Jun 2009, 03:13
I would personally like both crystal limitations AND arrow restrictions - there was an old thread about the possibility of a 20 arrow max per mission.

But personally, out of infinite arrows and limited crystals, and limited arrows (20) and some crystals in the levels to allow a limited restock, I prefer the second option (given the crystals are put in proper, realistic positions)