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Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 05:02
It's a simple question, should Garrett carry flares, or something more permanent.

Just a query for the community. I figure that way people wouldn't have to just turn the brightness all the way up so they could see everything if you gave them something more permanent. They could keep the darkness inherent in the game while still being able to see in the dark if they had to.

Maybe Guards could carry lanterns as well? Lanterns would be easily relit after a few tries with a tinderbox, allowing the player a crack with the blackjack or to sneak by quickly. Torches would still remain in the game, but maybe on higher difficulties lanterns would be more common.

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 05:04
The return of flares would be welcome. I've always considered it cheating to crank up the gamma while playing.

As for guards carrying torches and lanterns, it's always been a good idea. Keep it in.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 05:09
mainly it's the fact that lanterns would be a new concept in thief, as we have not seen them before.

As for cranking the gamma up all the way, the original game didn't give you flares, so sometimes I did there, and TMA didn't always give them to you, and it was annoying to use them. I think they would have been cooler if you could throw them and a guard would go check them out.. "ooooh, glowey thingy... *clunk* ughhh mama..."

jtr7
9th Jun 2009, 05:24
Never used flares for more than experimentation. I only turn up the gamma when I can't play in a darkened room.

DarthEnder
9th Jun 2009, 06:57
I don't think Garrett needs a lamp or torches. Mainly because he has a mechanical eye that sees in the dark. Flares are fine because they have other uses such as setting off powder kegs.

Guards on the other hand...

Basically, any guard whose patrol route regularly takes him through areas of pitch darkness should be equipped with a lantern.

Also, guards standing watch with areas of pitch darkness nearby should have lanterns onhand, rather than on their person. So if there's a commotion, they go get the lamp, light it, and then inspect the darkness. Rather than just walking off blind and expecting everything to turn out all right.

My first instinct was to suggest that they just have normal lanterns, but then I thought about it and realized that, from a purely gameplay standpoint, that would just be a pain in the ass for the player.

I think a better choice is to use a shuttered bullseye lantern. The guard would walk around with it lit all the time, but when he's in lit areas, he keeps the shutter closed, and when he walks into dark areas, he opens the shutter and it just illuminates a cone in front of him, rather than everything around him.


mainly it's the fact that lanterns would be a new concept in thief, as we have not seen them before.The guard on top of the submarine in Precious Cargo carries a lantern.

In fact, that guy is pretty much a test bed for obnoxious guard equipment. Diving helmet that makes him immune to blackjacking AND gas arrows, and on top of that, he carries his own waterproof light source.

That guard is my archnemesis...

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 07:08
Dude, I know... He was the only person in that level outside the ghost of the captain that I didn't knock out, and it made me ANGRY >_< I would murder him if it didn't autofail me, just for being evil.

Actually I'd like to see both types of lanterns.... bullseye you can't put out, but the general area lights are more like davey lanterns so they have holes (davey lanterns were used by miners, when the flame went out it meant the gases in the mine lacked oxygen and they should leave... that's why there was an exposed flame). The davey lanterns would just be easily relit, and the guard would probably be a aware of you.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
9th Jun 2009, 08:57
lol @ the submarine superguard.

I'd like a light source for Garrett, at the least I'd like my flares back. Might help me identify loot in the dark.

DarthEnder
9th Jun 2009, 10:12
Dude, I know... He was the only person in that level outside the ghost of the captain that I didn't knock out, and it made me ANGRY >_< I would murder him if it didn't autofail me, just for being evil.Frog egg is your friend.

Platinumoxicity
9th Jun 2009, 10:16
I don't think Garrett needs a lamp or torches. Mainly because he has a mechanical eye that sees in the dark. Flares are fine because they have other uses such as setting off powder kegs.

Garrett doesn't have a nightvision eye. :mad2: If you mean the effect in TDS where the screen got slightly lighter when you activated the zoom, I just found out this: TDS has a bug in the graphics system. When there is a very dark area in the background and you position a translucent brighter sprite or layer between the dark area and the observer, the bright layer in between lightens up the dark area. It works the same way with the zoom. You know the messy static background you get in TDS when you activate zoom? That works as the bright layer in between. It's an unintentional feature, and you can test it yourself by looking through the window light shafts in TDS => Nightvision lightshafts! It's a bug in the graphics, not a nightvision.

I think the flares should return, and with a little longer burning time. But please, if the flare is a 2-component chemical flare like in TMA, you can't light up torches with it. How about real burning flares with magnesium or something. They could also work as a temporary subsitute to flashbombs when you are in a very dark area and an enemy is chasing you. ;)

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 10:20
I also propose that stupid guards be facinated by the glowy thing they just saw fly by and go over to it to pick it up and look at it until it goes out. "Awww.... it died... *CLONK* ugh...mama...."

EDIT: and yeah, Garrett's eye is not really night vision... at best it's low light vision. It's the same tech used to make the cameras in TMA, so there's no way it's night vision (or those cameras would be ALOT HARDER to get by...)

Yaphy
9th Jun 2009, 10:23
Guards shouldnt be able to carry torches. Make them carry lanterns instead. I hate when you blackjack someone and they fall on their own torch and die. If they do have torches in their hands in Thief 4, Garrett should be able to pick the guard up before ne reaches the ground.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 10:25
Guards shouldnt be able to carry torches. Make them carry lanterns instead. I hate when you blackjack someone and they fall on their own torch and die. If they do have torches in their hands in Thief 4, Garrett should be able to pick the guard up before ne reaches the ground.

Aww, but they have to carry torches so they can light ones that you put out :D

But I do agree, in the 4th game I hope when we blackjack someone we can be prepared to lul them down, and drag them into the shadows.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
9th Jun 2009, 10:30
wow, were guards actually able to die by their own torch in TDS? I never saw it happen. Sounds hilarious though!

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 10:33
yeah if they sat there for a while... I haven't had one do it to me this playthrough though cause I'm quick to pick em up.

huzi73
9th Jun 2009, 10:40
Wouldnt it just be simpler if Garret's eye had nightvision?But a lantern would be cool in the sense that allowing you to see in the dark made you stick out like a sore thumb to enemies.(similar to the flashlight vs gun thing in Doom3)

Platinumoxicity
9th Jun 2009, 10:45
Wouldnt it just be simpler if Garret's eye had nightvision?But a lantern would be cool in the sense that allowing you to see in the dark made you stick out like a sore thumb to enemies.(similar to the flashlight vs gun thing in Doom3)

I think we should leave shine-eyes to Richard R.i.d.d.i.c.k.

BTW could some moderator please let us use the word ****? I mean it's just a name. Everytime someone tries to say Rid**** or **** Cheney or **** Tracy or something all they can say is ****

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
9th Jun 2009, 10:50
hah it never gets old.:D **** Van Dyke

I don't like the nightvision eye. Besides, having Garrett's light attract unwanted attention would be part of the fun.

DarthEnder
9th Jun 2009, 22:31
But I do agree, in the 4th game I hope when we blackjack someone we can be prepared to lul them down, and drag them into the shadows.Totally agree. I've wanted this since the very first Thief game.

kaekaelyn
9th Jun 2009, 22:51
Can I say "Wa****a County"?

EDIT: Apparently not, haha. :( Here's a hint: It is a county located in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. As of 2000, the population was 11,508. Its county seat is New Cordell. It was formerly located in Cloud Chief, Oklahoma.

Terr
9th Jun 2009, 22:53
If a guard falls on his own torch/lantern and takes damage, IMO that's a gameplay bug. Same as if their ragdoll would fall against the edge of a table and somehow become turned into a dead pretzel.

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 23:14
Cranking up gamma when you can use in-game lighting sources is pretty cheap. I liked flares; they were one of those cool little things that added to the immersion. I also liked how they were temporary, so you had to use them wisely. That aspect, I suppose, puts them over lanterns in my opinion.

Terr
9th Jun 2009, 23:19
The only problem with limited flares/lights is that it makes you limit your exploration. IMO if the player wants to check every dark corner for a dropped coin, they should be able to.

I can easily imagine Garrett with a little hand-cranked flashlight. Probably one of the easier possible Mechanist devices. ;)

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 23:32
I have a hand-cranked flashlight! Cool as hell. But it's awfully noisy. :(

It'd be slick, but would it be too advanced? I mean, you can only take steampunk so far.

DarthEnder
9th Jun 2009, 23:40
Does the flashlight have a boiler in it?

Terr
9th Jun 2009, 23:59
Does the flashlight have a boiler in it?
I'm sure some Mechanist stuff wasn't boileriffic ;) Maybe a viktrola?

MasterTaffer
10th Jun 2009, 00:25
The flashlight could have a captured "Will O The Wisp" inside and be activated by taking the cap off the front.

theBlackman
10th Jun 2009, 00:37
The flashlight could have a captured "Will O The Wisp" inside and be activated by taking the cap off the front.

You can't "capture" a "Will-O-The-Wisp". :) Depending on the area you live in the Willy is swamp gas, or phosphorescent fungus.

If the gas, no chance. If the fungus (found on rotting logs), you can take it, but you don't capture it. You could carry some in your scrip (purse to you modernists), and bring it out when you needed it. But as used in some FMs, you could easily have a lantern that turns on and off.

Check Lady Rowena's Curse for example. But then it's not really needed. I like the time limits with the old flare system. You learn not to waste time or motion and the flares also work to explode the barrels if you need to open a door etc.

If you want authenticity, then make it a "Bulldog" lantern. The candle inside is constantly lit, the light itself is allowed to escape by opening the door. But then you have the problem of the odor of hot metal which an alert AI could smell. Hell, if they smell Garrett, they will/should surely smell the hot lantern.

MasterTaffer
10th Jun 2009, 00:38
You can't "capture" a "Will-O-The-Wisp". :)

Now you done challenged me... ;)

DarthEnder
10th Jun 2009, 00:41
Pagan guards carry firefly swarms in jars.