PDA

View Full Version : Ho, hum, Oldtaffers v. Newtaffers



Crypto
8th Jun 2009, 23:05
Just out of curiosity because I'm getting tired of all the forum drama. This is as simple as it gets, folks.

nydusordos
8th Jun 2009, 23:09
Just out of curiosity because I'm getting tired of all the forum drama. This is as simple as it gets, folks.

Good poll! I am personally insulted by the people who think DS is a superior game to the original 2 and I hope the Hag devours them in the middle of the night (kidding, kidding!!!) but I do think Deadly Shadows was decent. Decent plot, decent missions overall (with one of the best thief missions EVER mixed in).

So they didn't have rope arrows. Yeah, that was stupid, but I am willing to overlook a couple things here and there.

- NO

Crypto
8th Jun 2009, 23:13
Yup.

I do believe TDS is a good number of notches below TDP and TMA, but while people are right to point out individual shortcoming, I'm tired of the factional "TDS sucks and Newtaffers have no idea what Thief is all about" drivel, because it simply isn't true. (Yes, I know most "Oldtaffers," myself included, don't literally say this, but I've seen it enough to want to put a wrench through my computer screen.) And I do believe TDS' plot was on par with if not better than the first two.

Platinumoxicity
8th Jun 2009, 23:36
The title of this poll is false. This is all about the good aspects of TDS. There is not option: "There were some good aspects in TDS, but the game is still bad"

Oldtaffers v. Newtaffers poll would be like:
-I played the game in "oldest to newest order" but I liked TDS the most.
-I played the game in "oldest to newest order" and I liked T1 and T2 the most.
-I played the game in "newest to oldest order" and I liked TDS the most.
-I played the game in "newest to oldest order" but I liked T1 and T2 the most.

Then the oldtaffers should start messing with the newtaffers and so on... :D

imported_van_HellSing
8th Jun 2009, 23:44
How about "I played the games in order, liked TDP best, then TDS, and TMA the least?"

MasterTaffer
8th Jun 2009, 23:53
How about "I played the games in order, liked TDP best, then TDS, and TMA the least?"

I'de be in that option.

Nate
8th Jun 2009, 23:59
I doubt there will be a single vote for TDS being a completely crappy game. I mean, it had some issues, but I really enjoyed playing it (as did everybody else here). It also got great reviews.

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 00:01
I doubt there will be a single vote for TDS being a completely crappy game. I mean, it had some issues, but I really enjoyed playing it (as did everybody else here). It also got great reviews.

I sort of think that's the point of the poll. Too see how many people just completely despise the game so much that they consider it a vile excuse for a game.

theBlackman
9th Jun 2009, 00:03
For a game TDS was not bad. The plot was OK, the general tenor workable. I have played it more than once, and will again.

But... THIEF it is not.

That said, it had one of the best missions in any game (THIEF or other), that I have had the pleasure to play.

As for "Old-New", the difference is mainly in the conflict between the "Kill em all and let God sort 'em out", and the "Think I can sneak around the back and not get caught". The bulk of the games available to the Xboxers and other Console players are "If it moves KILL IT" , "Use the biggest gun you can find", and "Hey! just get to that door, and you will be SUPERMAN".

It's no wonder most who saw TDS as their first THIEF game, don't get the theme. And it's no wonder there is a slight (Hell LARGE) difference in view points.

As a game TDS is ok. As THIEF it sucks.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 00:12
the difference is mainly in the conflict between the "Kill em all and let God sort 'em out", and the "Think I can sneak around the back and not get caught".

I agree, I was playing the pagan sanctuary level yesterday, and I got to a point where there was a Gear overhanging a bunch of pagans, and Garrett made the comment about it being precarious and that "someone might get hurt...". I found myself for at least a couple seconds completely disgusted with the game for suggesting that I murder these people... Luckily I was able to find another path around, and the best part is that path led to finding more treasure and to getting to my objective quicker than if I'd killed them. I felt somewhat rewarded for it, but the fact that Garrett suggested killing people still made me hate it. The only thing I don't mind removing is undead, and spiders, but I don't think Garrett should ever suggest the murder of people. It's even in the title "Deadly shadows".

Nate
9th Jun 2009, 00:12
Well, once again today, theBlackman cuts right through the crap and highlights the issue.

Yeah, TDS was a fun game, but isn't Thief 1 or 2.

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 00:33
As for "Old-New", the difference is mainly in the conflict between the "Kill em all and let God sort 'em out", and the "Think I can sneak around the back and not get caught". The bulk of the games available to the Xboxers and other Console players are "If it moves KILL IT" , "Use the biggest gun you can find", and "Hey! just get to that door, and you will be SUPERMAN".

I didn't play TDS like a barbarian. I either ghosted or played with a well-balanced mix of ghosting and clubbing. Your assumption that none of us get the theme is exactly what I'm talking about when I take a stab at the factional mentality of these forums. I get the theme, thank you very much. Guess what, pal: TDS introduced me to the series. And I do prefer TDP and TMA.

So few people believe TDS is on par with the others that there's no point in including that as an option. We've highlighted it in other polls and the difference is stark.

I originally had a layout like what Platinumoxicity wrote, but decided to simplify it because my point was that TDS does have a number of good aspects and shouldn't just be thrown out the window when the devs consider T4, as I believe I've seen some members suggest. The way I see it, so many posts underline TDS' flaws that it appears as though it's utter crap—most people are focusing on the negative aspects a tad too much. With this poll we see that it does possess some merit and must not be ignored. Of course, when I changed the poll options I forgot to change the thread title, so it is a little messed up.

"Deadly Shadows" does not imply that Garrett is out to kill. It implies that his profession is dangerous. There's nothing in there that suggests Garrett is a deadly shadow. The gear instance is of course a con for TDS, but I think you're exaggerating those rare cases where Garrett alludes to killing simply to prove your point. Did TDS (subtly) put forward less "thiefy" play styles? Absolutely. But that's not all there is to the game, and TDS does not deserve as bad a name as many of us seem to be giving it. Period.

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 00:38
I didn't play TDS like a barbarian. I either ghosted or played with a well-balanced mix of ghosting and clubbing. Your assumption that none of us get the theme is exactly what I'm talking about when I take a stab at the factional mentality of these forums. I get the theme, thank you very much. Guess what, pal: TDS introduced me to the series. And I do prefer TDP and TMA.

So few people believe TDS is on par with the others that there's no point in including that as an option. We've highlighted it in other polls and the difference is stark.

I originally had a layout like what Platinumoxicity wrote, but decided to simplify it because my point was that TDS does have a number of good aspects and shouldn't just be thrown out the window when the devs consider T4, as I believe I've seen some members suggest. The way I see it, so many posts underline TDS' flaws that it appears as though it's utter crap—most people are focusing on the negative aspects a tad too much. With this poll we see that it does possess some merit and must not be ignored. Of course, when I changed the poll options I forgot to change the thread title, so it is a little messed up.

"Deadly Shadows" does not imply that Garrett is out to kill. It implies that his profession is dangerous. There's nothing in there that suggests Garrett is a deadly shadow. The gear instance is of course a con for TDS, but I think you're exaggerating those rare cases where Garrett alludes to killing simply to prove your point. Did TDS (subtly) put forward less "thiefy" play styles? Absolutely. But that's not all there is to the game, and TDS does not deserve as bad a name as many of us seem to be giving it. Period.

I like him. He makes me smile. :D

jtr7
9th Jun 2009, 00:48
Really poor choices there. It's as if you aren't tired of the drama at all.

I don't like TDS overall, but there are many things I really do like a lot, and they have nothing to do with playing it.

Slither
9th Jun 2009, 00:55
I'm as old of a taffer as you could get. I remember the days of anxiously following the online dev diary while LG was creating TDP. I bought it on the day it was released and did the same for T2 and TDS. In spite of the "old taffer" opion you expect me to have, TDS was certainly the weakest of the three -- clunky movement, HUGE FONT, tiny levels, etc. In spite of these shortcomings, the story was good, The Cradle was fantastic; the lockpicking was cool. To expect old taffers to say there was "nothing good" about TDS is a bit cynical.

A weak Thief game is a good game by any other measure.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 00:57
A weak Thief game is good game by any other measure.

That's a good testament to the series.

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 00:57
I like him. He makes me smile. :D
Really, man? :mad2:

Jtr7, it's not that the choices are poor (well, maybe it is, but that's not the point). It's that YOU ARE NOT GETTING THE POINT. The options are clear and reasonable. You either like the game, you appreciate certain aspects, or you don't like the game at all. That covers everything. I deliberately used two options instead of three to attack the flat "**** TDS" attitude. This poll isn't intended to grade TDS. It isn't intended to compare it to the first two games by way of a vote. It's intended to define TDS as a game that deserves acknowledgment not only for where it erred, but also for where it succeeded.


To expect old taffers to say there was "nothing good" about TDS is a bit cynical.
That's precisely not what I'm expecting.

Myth
9th Jun 2009, 01:06
Thank you for copying my thread from TTLG, title and all...

lefty
9th Jun 2009, 01:06
I've never actually played TDS other than a few minutes of demo. So my opinion is probably invalid.

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 01:10
Sorry, Myth, I don't know what you're talking about. Thank you for jumping to conclusions, though.

EDIT: Myth, I just checked. Your thread is not even close to making the same point as mine. Did you actually read what I wrote here?

Myth
9th Jun 2009, 01:25
Not really, i apologize for that. But the wording is so similar.. I guess we had the same source of inspiration, although you seem to be against "oldtaffers" and our so called elitism. Honestly, i don't have anything against new players. Even if it's an 11 year old kid that played TDS on his xbox and pumped every single moving thing with broadheads. I just don't want players like that influencing the series' future.

Thief is not Assasin's Creed, Garret is not Altaier, he does not need his clothes, weapons, moves, 3rd person, headshot movies etc etc. And it seems that most of the "newtaffers" who are mesmorised by Assasin's Creed and similar games, are the ones who are suggesting changes that are completely out of place for a Thief game. With risk of repeating myself, Thief is a dark noir steampunk first person sneaker, with chilling sound, perfect light/dark propagation and a City and setting that has a life on it's own. Garrett is the protagonist - not Altair, not the little thief riding hood girl, not Duke Nukem, not Sam Fisher.

Myself and so many of the older players love these games and have devoted countless hours in playing them. We are scared that today's market and audience might ruin a great series, hence our coments.

Nate
9th Jun 2009, 01:41
Hi Myth, from what I've seen of mod posts, it would seem you shouldn't worry too much. They all seem to be pretty hardcore Thief DP/MA fans.

But, you are right in that if enough fan voices make enough noise, things could change.

DiegoFloor
9th Jun 2009, 01:44
Not really, i apologize for that. But the wording is so similar.. I guess we had the same source of inspiration, although you seem to be against "oldtaffers" and our so called elitism. Honestly, i don't have anything against new players. Even if it's an 11 year old kid that played TDS on his xbox and pumped every single moving thing with broadheads. I just don't want players like that influencing the series' future.

Thief is not Assasin's Creed, Garret is not Altaier, he does not need his clothes, weapons, moves, 3rd person, headshot movies etc etc. And it seems that most of the "newtaffers" who are mesmorised by Assasin's Creed and similar games, are the ones who are suggesting changes that are completely out of place for a Thief game. With risk of repeating myself, Thief is a dark noir steampunk first person sneaker, with chilling sound, perfect light/dark propagation and a City and setting that has a life on it's own. Garrett is the protagonist - not Altair, not the little thief riding hood girl, not Duke Nukem, not Sam Fisher.

Myself and so many of the older players love these games and have devoted countless hours in playing them. We are scared that today's market and audience might ruin a great series, hence our coments.

I couldn't have said it better.

Assassin's Creed is a great game. But it's another game! I hate to be the one pointing the obvious here but, the idea of making a Thief sequel, I belive, is to make a THIEF SEQUEL. A sequel, by definition is essentially "more of the same". If it's totally different, but still a good game, why not give it a different name?

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 01:49
Not really, i apologize for that. But the wording is so similar.. I guess we had the same source of inspiration, although you seem to be against "oldtaffers" and our so called elitism. Honestly, i don't have anything against new players. Even if it's an 11 year old kid that played TDS on his xbox and pumped every single moving thing with broadheads. I just don't want players like that influencing the series' future.

Thief is not Assasin's Creed, Garret is not Altaier, he does not need his clothes, weapons, moves, 3rd person, headshot movies etc etc. And it seems that most of the "newtaffers" who are mesmorised by Assasin's Creed and similar games, are the ones who are suggesting changes that are completely out of place for a Thief game. With risk of repeating myself, Thief is a dark noir steampunk first person sneaker, with chilling sound, perfect light/dark propagation and a City and setting that has a life on it's own. Garrett is the protagonist - not Altair, not the little thief riding hood girl, not Duke Nukem, not Sam Fisher.

Myself and so many of the older players love these games and have devoted countless hours in playing them. We are scared that today's market and audience might ruin a great series, hence our coments.

Pfft. I'm an "old taffer" and I still think a decent portion of us have an elitist prick attitude.

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 02:03
A little clarification, Myth: I'm not against the vets, but yes, I am against elitism, especially when it encourages a fallacious, black-and-white attitude. Fact is that TDS did some things right.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 02:04
Pfft. I'm an "old taffer" and I still think a decent portion of us have an elitist prick attitude.

Ditto

Thieffanman
9th Jun 2009, 02:16
Did TDS (subtly) put forward less "thiefy" play styles? Absolutely.

Your entire post makes sense, however, I'll only disagree with this portion of your post, in that *how* Thief is played --as a silent thief or a dagger-wielding killer-- is solely up to the player. I didn't think that TDS, subtly or outright, encouraged any particular playing style.


But that's not all there is to the game, and TDS does not deserve as bad a name as many of us seem to be giving it. Period.

Amen! But then, I'm one of the few people on this board who think T3 was a great game, and at least *on par*, if not better than, TDP or TMA.

Eh, so call me heretic :).

--Thieffanman

Zahr Dalsk
9th Jun 2009, 02:20
Oldtaffer here.

I love Thief 2, far more than the other games.

Thief DS has positive aspects, mainly environment and music (first two had no audible music, of course).

By the way, combat is easier to play through in 1 and 2 than it is in DS.

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 02:25
Oldtaffer here.

I love Thief 2, far more than the other games.

Thief DS has positive aspects, mainly environment and music (first two had no audible music, of course).

Wrong on that one. They were just subtle to the point where they seemed like environmental sounds. But it was there. A good example is in Assassins, one can here the same music int he credits sequence for the game if you venture into the crawl space behind Ramirez's library.

Not dissing you, just pointing that out.


By the way, combat is easier to play through in 1 and 2 than it is in DS.

That's always the thing that makes me laugh when people say Deadly Shadows was more aciton oriented. If someone is looking for fighting in a Thief game, it's a lot easier to play that way in the first two.

Myth
9th Jun 2009, 02:28
A little clarification, Myth: I'm not against the vets, but yes, I am against elitism, especially when it encourages a fallacious, black-and-white attitude. Fact is that TDS did some things right. Aye that it did. But fundamental things were changed for the worse - the clumsy movement, the removal of rope arrows and swimming, loot glint.. If i continue reposting these issues i think i will make someone's head explode, as they have been grind to dust in this forum already. Bottom line is, TDS was inferior (IMO) to the first two games, and if the trend continues, Thief 4 will be something drastically different (hence the fear of newtaffer's wishes for unneeded additions that deviate from the series)

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 02:29
Your entire post makes sense, however, I'll only disagree with this portion of your post, in that *how* Thief is played --as a silent thief or a dagger-wielding killer-- is solely up to the player. I didn't think that TDS, subtly or outright, encouraged any particular playing style.
I don't know, I guess we're seeing it differently. *shrug*

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 03:13
Actually, I find combat alot easier in TDS than in any of the other thief games... I just went on a killing spree and the only thing that killed me was it not mantling correctly and throwing me in deep water.

But that's not due to the combat mechanics... that's due to the fact that I have an unlimited resource due to the ability to buy all the supplies I could ever want from the stores. (I plan on making a thread about merchants in a minute and supplies).

Personally, I prefer the combat in the first 2 games, not because it "made the game easy" but because it was fulfilling, it was in depth. In TDS it's you running close to someone holding the attack button, and they basically do the same thing to you. In the other games people would block, parry, occasionally the guards would try a 123 combo (I think it's side slash, pommel to the head, side slash) and you had to be quick to intercept it. Since combat is the direct penalty for failing at the primary focus of the game (stealth), it deserves to also be as fulfilling an experience. None of the primary facets of a good game should be not fun like the combat in TDS is. Instead of making combat itself not fun, make the consequences for entering combat be more dire. Instead of having instant health potions like in TDS (also a reason combat is easier), bring back gradual health restoration. But make it so that as long as you're below half health you leave a trail of blood, and as long as you're below a quarter health you limp, meaning more noise, and half running speed, so other guards will catch up with you more easily... A trail of blood can be followed by the curious, leading to your discovery. This way the game remains fun in every aspect, but those who engage in combat more often will have a more difficult time with success.

Zahr Dalsk
9th Jun 2009, 03:17
Wrong on that one. They were just subtle to the point where they seemed like environmental sounds. But it was there. A good example is in Assassins, one can here the same music int he credits sequence for the game if you venture into the crawl space behind Ramirez's library.

Not dissing you, just pointing that out.

You're wrong, actually. I can hear the music if I turn the volume extremely high, but it's not playable because then any normal sound, even faint footsteps, is thunderingly loud.

When on normal volume, the music is simply too quiet.

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 03:27
You're wrong, actually. I can hear the music if I turn the volume extremely high, but it's not playable because then any normal sound, even faint footsteps, is thunderingly loud.

When on normal volume, the music is simply too quiet.

I can hear it clearly without turning my volume up. Weird.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 03:58
I feel ignored...

Zahr Dalsk
9th Jun 2009, 04:09
I can hear it clearly without turning my volume up. Weird.

It might be a hardware/software issue on my computer that stops it from working correctly.

lefty
9th Jun 2009, 04:13
It might be a hardware/software issue on my computer that stops it from working correctly.

Are there separate sliders in the menus for music levels and sound levels?

Zahr Dalsk
9th Jun 2009, 04:30
Are there separate sliders in the menus for music levels and sound levels?

No.

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 04:54
Are there separate sliders in the menus for music levels and sound levels?

Negative. I think there's something wrong with his hardware, as I can hear the music in game just fine.

jtr7
9th Jun 2009, 05:56
A little clarification, Myth: I'm not against the vets, but yes, I am against elitism, especially when it encourages a fallacious, black-and-white attitude. Fact is that TDS did some things right.

Correct, TDS did get some things right. The fallacy comes from putting those who appreciate the games (on multiple levels, some of which are rarely discussed by the majority) and study what works and why--heh, Thief Scholars--in the same group as those who flat-out hate TDS and shout the same lines over and over--often ignorant of the facts, and an embarrassment to all but themselves. The vets who separate what the game is from their own impressions and emotions are being included with trolls, and it's sad the difference isn't perceived. Both sides accuse the other of a black & white mentality.

I continue to be dismayed by the disdain for the game and for those who love the game by those who demonstrate only cursory or superficial knowledge of either. The ad hominem and straw man arguments are not constructive, either.

Myth: Garrett is who the player wants him to be.
Fact: Garrett is Garrett, but controlled in-game by the player, who can break his character and ignore the story on a whim. Recognizing who Garrett is should be as "simple" as recognizing a friend, relative, store clerk, anyone you've seen before many times in widely-varying situations, so that you know when they are acting out-of-character. Knowing where Garrett stops and you begin is critical to serious debate.

Myth: The game is what the player wants it to be.
Fact: The game has rules, and the player can bend and break those rules, thus, changing the game to something else, even destroying the designers' intent, rendering it not-Thief. To bend or break the game becomes the bigger game, and to say you are still playing Thief is incorrect. You are not playing the game that was designed, but the game you yourself have created from pieces and parts of another.

You are allowed to do these things, but it is simply incorrect to imply you know better than the game what Thief is. A game of any kind is defined by its rules, which include what a player is allowed to do as well as not -- barring the person's skills. A video game has even more rules that come from the limitations (built with intent, or restricted by the developers' skills, time, and technology) of a virtual world and virtual interaction of any number of variables.

The many many rules that are added to a game over its history--long or brief--are often to control crafty or rebellious players that are not comfortable following the spirit of the original rules. If Thief is to see rule changes, it should be to "correct" wayward players who are not content with the definitions and do things that demean the game. There are things about all the games that should be repaired, and there are things that make Thief what it is and separate it from any other game. Blurring the lines will be seen as a sin.

imported_van_HellSing
9th Jun 2009, 06:05
It might be a hardware/software issue on my computer that stops it from working correctly.

Usually this sort of problem means your speakers aren't set up correctly, as in using a surround sound setting with 2.1 speakers etc.

ToMegaTherion
9th Jun 2009, 08:41
In the other games people would block, parry, occasionally the guards would try a 123 combo (I think it's side slash, pommel to the head, side slash) and you had to be quick to intercept it.

I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat that blocking in Thief is bad play. To be honest, I'd go so far as saying that losing health in melee in Thief is bad play. Unless you're fighting ten treebeasts; I'll allow you to lose some health in that battle.

It's clear that melee is a lot more fun in the first two games, but it's also dreadfully broken and undermines the whole point of the game. I think that is more serious a failing.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 09:02
It's clear that melee is a lot more fun in the first two games, but it's also dreadfully broken and undermines the whole point of the game.

While I agree it's somewhat broken, I think we can agree that it was at least fun. In TDS, although the combat isn't so broken, it is not fun, and consists of holding a button and running at someone, while they do the same. Since combat is the direct result of failing at stealth, it should also be fun, because chances are the player will engage in it occasionally (your average player). You should not make that part of the game NOT fun. Instead make it undesirable. Make consequences for entering combat, like bleeding at half health and leaving a trail for others to follow, limping and making more noise and being slower at quarter health, and healing is gradual like the first 2 games. Make the consequences of combat undesirable, but make combat fun and dynamic like the first game.

ToMegaTherion
9th Jun 2009, 09:07
Having only participated a few times in knife combat in Deadly Shadows, I don't feel I have sufficient expertise to comment on whether there is skill to it. From what I did play, I have a suspicion that one can indeed battle with more subtlety than just clicking in a frenzy, but I don't really have the inclination to test that hypothesis.

It'd be good to have fun combat, of course. It would be interesting to see what would happen in the first two games if the guards were actually capable of fighting properly.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 09:11
I think mainly the problem is that in the first 2 games they'd often wince at their pain and you could just chain them wincing to death... they'd also just dance around you instead of actually fighting...

ToMegaTherion
9th Jun 2009, 09:18
The principal problem I noticed is their inability to move and attack at the same time. This makes them almost completely useless.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 09:23
that as well... although I did find their back and forth in fencing stance kind of charming.

esme
9th Jun 2009, 10:43
I like Deadly Shadows as a game I just think it's not an evolution from the earlier games and therefore not a good sequel

vowdy
9th Jun 2009, 12:38
I doubt a lot of people will choose the 2nd option. There's always A FEW good things in a thief game.

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 13:30
I doubt a lot of people will choose the 2nd option. There's always A FEW good things in a thief game.

No kidding.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Jun 2009, 15:02
This is as simple as it gets, folks.

Too simple, perhaps?
It encourages a forced vote for option 1, imo - simply because option 2 is very matter-of-fact and unlikely to be anyone's definite choice of answer. Particularly as many appreciated the Cradle level.
There should have been some sort of neutral choice, and the answers should have been worded accordingly.

Here's my predicament. I appreciate some of the game's aspects, BUT I wouldn't go as far as saying "I like it", no.
So I can't vote for the first option - unless I just want to participate in the poll for the fun of it, without serious thought to what I am agreeing to.
As I did appreciate some aspects of T: DS, option 2 isn't open to me either.
If there had been some sort of neutral choice, eg.: "I neither like or dislike T: DS - it had good and bad aspects", this would have got my vote.

Anyway, I have not voted. Obviously. :)

Tushaar
9th Jun 2009, 15:15
There is no way hardcore thief fans can vote the second option, they must not be thief fans at all if they do that. TDS had Stephen Russell's voice and already with that feature, voting 1st option is a must.

AbysmalGale
9th Jun 2009, 15:34
I voted #2 just to protest against the alternatives that would force you to vote #1 ;) Of course no hardcore fan of Thief would hate TDS thoroughly, so the alternatives doesn't make any sense at all.

Zahr Dalsk
9th Jun 2009, 16:28
How about "I played the games in order, liked TDP best, then TDS, and TMA the least?"

My order would be: TMA is completely awesome, TDS is nice for the environments, and TDP is... blargh, don't even play it anymore.

ToMegaTherion
9th Jun 2009, 17:01
My order would be: TMA is completely awesome, TDS is nice for the environments, and TDP is... blargh, don't even play it anymore.

I can't really imagine playing Dark Project again either.

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 19:13
I voted #2 just to protest against the alternatives that would force you to vote #1 ;) Of course no hardcore fan of Thief would hate TDS thoroughly, so the alternatives doesn't make any sense at all.

You. Are. Not. Getting. The. Poll. I give you your choices. If you're going to vote, vote rationally. If you don't like the setup, don't fudge with it by trying to bend it to your agenda. The whole point is that unless you absolutely hate everything about TDS, you should be voting for the first option. It's not hard to understand. You have no reason to squabble about the construction of this poll.


Too simple, perhaps?
You either enjoy/appreciate TDS, or you do not. That's the point of this poll. It's not too simple. You (and others who have objected to its design) are insisting on looking at it with a slant that is neither necessary nor applicable.


Here's my predicament. I appreciate some of the game's aspects, BUT I wouldn't go as far as saying "I like it", no.
So I can't vote for the first option - unless I just want to participate in the poll for the fun of it, without serious thought to what I am agreeing to.
As I did appreciate some aspects of T: DS, option 2 isn't open to me either.
Option 1 is, "I like Thief: Deadly Shadows or at least appreciate some of its aspects." Keyword: or.

Or, according to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, is "used as a function word to indicate an alternative."

So yes, the first option is very much open to you.


There should have been some sort of neutral choice, and the answers should have been worded accordingly.
No, there shouldn't have been a neutral choice. That's not the point of this poll. If someone wants to make a poll like that—a poll with an entirely different objective—then he or she should by all means go for it. But that's not what I'm getting at.

hellwalker
9th Jun 2009, 19:49
-I played the game in "oldest to newest order" and I liked T1 and T2 the most.
I like Thief: Deadly Shadows or at least appreciate some of its aspects.
I have played TMA more then 20 times, on every custom level of difficulty I could think of
I love stealth action Genre
I love beer
I have black hair like Garrett so I'm truer fan
Generalization and stereotypes are fun if you lack intelligence.<_<

Platinumoxicity
9th Jun 2009, 19:50
Then what's the meaning of this poll? Everyone who seriously votes, votes 1. The ones who vote 2, do it for the lulz because the 2nd alternative is ridiculous. You would have to be a blind and deaf quardiplegic to not like aything about TDS because blind and deaf quadriplegics can't play it at all.

Why make a poll that's only got one real option? It's like an election in Burma.

I want one of those who honestly and with a straight face voted for 2, to mention 10 random things in TDS that were bad, and if we can refute any of these claims, they're busted and we'll know that they just voted for the lulz. :D

Zahr Dalsk
9th Jun 2009, 19:59
I want one of those who honestly and with a straight face voted for 2, to mention 10 random things in TDS that were bad

I voted for 1, but I'll take this challenge anyways.

1. No widescreen option. In TDP and TMA it could be gotten working widescreen; in TDS it could not.
2. Uncomfortable WASD movement.
3. Retarded cutscene at the end with the little girl.
4. Graphics engine actually looks a bit worse than TMA and is more jarring.
5. Where are my rope/vine arrows?
6. You're silent when crouching. COMPLETELY SILENT.
7. Small missions devoid of all wonderful TMA details.
8. Frequent load times as opposed to the nigh instantaneous TMA load times that only took place at a level's start.
9. Revealed too much about Keepers, ruined a lot of mystery.
10. Squeaky Pagan voices.

That said, here are a few good things about TDS:

1. Nice soundtrack that I can actually hear.
2. Areas like Pagan Sanctuary, St Edgars, and Clocktower are pretty nice, though the bad engine ruins them somewhat.
3. The Cradle.

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 20:35
Why make a poll that's only got one real option? It's like an election in Burma.

To prove a point. It appears as if a lot of players are hoping that Eidos ignores TDS or treats it like crap. I can't off the top of my head remember specific instances, but I have seen people say, "Don't look at TDS. Look at TDP and TMA." That's terrible advice.


3. Retarded cutscene at the end with the little girl.

When I first watched this scene, without thinking about what it might do for the future for the series, it sent chills down my spine. I thought it was very cool.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Jun 2009, 20:44
Keyword: or.
Or, according to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, is "used as a function word to indicate an alternative."



With respect, Sir. I do understand the meaning of 'or'.

The fact that the 'or' forms part of and/or continues immediately after a matter-of-fact statement is what worries me. The two statements do not belong together, that is why I think the option is flawed and it cannot apply to me.
Also, as already said, allowing just two options makes the poll quite pointless indeed. Not many will vote for 2 for reasons already given.

The poll should really have these three options, imo:

I like T: DS, I appreciate everything about it. (positive)
I neither like or hate it, I appreciate some things and not others (neutral)
I dislike T: DS, I don't appreciate anything about it.(negative)


But please do not worry. As I have said, I feel that I am unable to vote. Everyone else can do so if they wish, of course. :)

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 20:57
The "or" thing was a :p

Again, the poll isn't intended to define TDS on terms of like/dislike. It's to define it on terms of appreciate/depreciate.

DiegoFloor
9th Jun 2009, 21:35
I like this poll. It shows that old hard core thief fans, like myself, are reasonable people. I consider TDS to be a unworthy sequel, not a bad game.

theBlackman
9th Jun 2009, 21:44
The "or" thing was a :p

Again, the poll isn't intended to define TDS on terms of like/dislike. It's to define it on terms of appreciate/depreciate.


What does "appreciate/deppreciate" mean. Do I appreciate the addition to the thief series? Do I deppreciate (not even certain that is a word), the clumsiness introduced in TDS?

A clear statement defining your query would be of great value.

Viktoria's addition makes more sense. Your explanation of your intent is more confusing than the poll query.

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 23:17
"Depreciate" is a word, but I won't quote Merriam-Webster again because I've made enough of a jerk of myself already, but essentially, it's ... the opposite of "appreciate."

This poll is intended to separate the players who


like Thief: Deadly Shadows or at least appreciate some of its aspects

from the players who believe


there's nothing good about Thief: Deadly Shadows.

(As explained by the poll options.)

That is all.

Terr
10th Jun 2009, 00:04
Clearly anyone saying there's "nothing" good about TDS is blind. (cue "...You insensitive clod!") because the graphics improvement was nothing to sneeze at.

There are other things I'd put forward as obviously-better, but almost any sequel is going to be better than the original in terms of basic tech/representational improvements.

theBlackman
10th Jun 2009, 00:17
"Depreciate" is a word, but I won't quote Merriam-Webster again because I've made enough of a jerk of myself already, but essentially, it's ... the opposite of "appreciate."

This poll is intended to separate the players who


like Thief: Deadly Shadows or at least appreciate some of its aspects

from the players who believe


there's nothing good about Thief: Deadly Shadows.

(As explained by the poll options.)

That is all.

Thanks. I would not have known or added that to my vocabulary. It just "sounds" wrong. I should correct the misspelling I did, but...

And I can't say you are or were a "jerk". You just have an opinion and asked (somewhat foggily) for others.

Myth
10th Jun 2009, 01:34
To prove a point. It appears as if a lot of players are hoping that Eidos ignores TDS or treats it like crap. I can't off the top of my head remember specific instances, but I have seen people say, "Don't look at TDS. Look at TDP and TMA." That's terrible advice. That is very sound advice IMO. The things that made TDS good when compared to other games, are the things it held true to from it's predecessors. 99% of the so called innovations in TDS were made of fail and AIDS. And just so you don't call me a fanboy i will do an unnecessary thing - back up my words with examples:

1. - TDS is about a charismatic master thief, stealing and living in a dark noir city - consistency
2. The Cradle - consistency (see Return to the Cathedrall, TDP)

3. Adding auto-aimed blackjacking that makes the enemy turn towards Garret. - retarded "Improvement"
4. Loot glint / fairy dust - retarded "Improvements"
.. you know i can go on for a page or so right?

Crypto
10th Jun 2009, 01:56
And I can't say you are or were a "jerk". You just have an opinion and asked (somewhat foggily) for others.
No, I'm saying I'm aware that I was coming across aggressively. That had nothing to do with you.

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 02:38
I can think of plenty of non-graphical things that I think were improved in TDS, though you are most probably not going to agree with me.

Music (This is very noticeable to me as a composer, and I consider it important. You might find it superficial, but to me great music is essential.)

Being able to find maps for subsequent missions

Not being able to blackjack guards while standing RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. (Many disagree with me here, but to me this is definitely against the spirit of the game. TDS' auto blackjack shift was not cool, but it represented a change in the right direction--sneak up behind people to blackjack them. Is it realistic that you wouldn't be able to blackjack someone in the face? No. But to me it makes for better gameplay.)

Faster zombies (Personally, I'm terrified of the T1/T2 zombies, but even I know that if I make a run for it, I probably won't end up with one in my face because they're so slow and stupid. I guess traditionally, zombies are slow, but I think they did a good job in TDS making them look reasonable while moving fast.)

The Cradle was not a rehash of The Haunted Cathedral. (It had its own story, and broke the routine of "steal the loot, steal item X, get out" in its own unique way. A twisted, warped past where everything is just slightly wrong, and you appear in the body of a mental patient? Shades? A leap of faith? No, this level stands alone, and has nothing to do with The Haunted Cathedral.)

Shooting moss arrows at people's faces. (You have to admit, that was hilarious.)

Garrett makes notes of things that he overhears, etc. (I like this. In a game, you're never sure what's important and what's not. I would have never thought of bringing a junk item up to the top of the Seaside Mansion if it were not for the note, "The widow would like some wine.")

Better mechanical eye. (I've heard it was an accident, but I don't know if I believe it. It's sort of night-vision, but blurry. It seems very steampunk!)

I actually believe a lot of things were improvements that would be a lot more controversial than this, so I deliberately left them out. And even still, there's a lot more, but I haven't played TDS in a little while so I'm drawing a blank. TDS tried to be innovative. It went too far in some ways, and actually took some steps in the right direction. T1 and T2 are great games, but they too have their flaws, and while TDS did not fix all of them, it actually did build upon them in many ways.

Oldtaffer...sort of. I played the first two games a long time ago, never got into FM's or anything. Then I picked up TDS with only a vague memory of the first two. I'm going back and replaying TDP and TMA right now, with the terrible graphics caused by Parallels Desktop 4, loving every second of it, and looking at all the games in a critical way, like any taffer with half a brain should.

kabatta
10th Jun 2009, 06:40
Why every day comes one person who want to show oldtaffers they are wrong and he is right? Alltough I started playing thief from new to old abouth 2 years ago and I am considered a newtaffer, I must agree with the oldtaffers. You have to take the good with the bad, however that raggdoll body really ired me. It is fun to hit a guard in the face with a blackjack in TDS, run and never be caught, but it is wrong.
It's a pretty easy game. It can be fun too. I allwas torture the npc's in the sandbox city. Good times.
Now returning to the topic: that poll is as black as white as the oppinios Crypto says that the elites have. I respect his oppinion, but I believe that there should be room for diplomacy. We are here only to debate, not dispute.

AbysmalGale
10th Jun 2009, 12:53
I played the first two games a long time ago, never got into FM's or anything. Then I picked up TDS with only a vague memory of the first two.

I think this might be the reason why you look a bit too positive on TDS ;)

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 13:50
No, I think I would have been the same way had my memory been clearer. If you read many of my posts, you will find that I do not like TDS nearly as much as the first two installments, and have no problem criticizing it. The point is, however, I thought TDS was a fun game, because I didn't get all wrapped up in all this "It's a disgrace to the franchise" business. I don't think I would have thought so much into it had I recently played TDP or TMA when I picked up TDS, because I play games to have fun. Now it's time to criticize, because Thief 4 is being made and we want it to be the best game possible.

TDS is different; it attempted to take the game in a new direction, and it succeeded in some points, and failed in others.

I hope you don't discard my opinion because of my history with the games, because that would be quite misguided. It kind of sounds like you're willing to trash what I've just said because of some bias or whatever, and I wish you wouldn't.

AbysmalGale
10th Jun 2009, 14:11
I hope you don't discard my opinion because of my history with the games, because that would be quite misguided. It kind of sounds like you're willing to trash what I've just said because of some bias or whatever, and I wish you wouldn't.

No, not at all. Sorry. I didn't mean to sound rude or anything. I just don't know much enough about your Thief-history I guess, and sort of jumped to conclusions. I mean, I didn't think TDS was a worthless game either. It was a good game, but not really worthy the series in my opinion.

gpagonewest
10th Jun 2009, 15:39
2, 1, 3 in that order for me.

I lost count how many times I have played and finished T2, it still remains my fav game of all time.

There is nothing about T3 that is hateful or so bad its an insult. It was a good game that had a few things that didn't feel right to me, but it didn't stop me from enjoying it.

The only thing that is horrifying is the fact I don't know where my T2 disk is. I want to play it again now.

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 16:47
Nah, I'm just a little jumpy I guess. You're fine. :)

Crypto
10th Jun 2009, 21:07
Why every day comes one person who want to show oldtaffers they are wrong and he is right? Alltough I started playing thief from new to old abouth 2 years ago and I am considered a newtaffer, I must agree with the oldtaffers. You have to take the good with the bad, however that raggdoll body really ired me. It is fun to hit a guard in the face with a blackjack in TDS, run and never be caught, but it is wrong.
It's a pretty easy game. It can be fun too. I allwas torture the npc's in the sandbox city. Good times.
Now returning to the topic: that poll is as black as white as the oppinios Crypto says that the elites have. I respect his oppinion, but I believe that there should be room for diplomacy. We are here only to debate, not dispute.

Okay, you obviously didn't paid any attention to what I said. I don't believe the veterans black-and-white attitudes and I most certainly am not trying to prove their opinions on TDS wrong.

kabatta
11th Jun 2009, 07:23
I believe I have read with care what you have said and I keep my statement. And I must note that most of your statements are against people that didn't share your point of view. It's nice that you have an oppinion. I respect it. But throwing a poll with no real option is a little aggresive. You won't make people think a game is great just because you want so. And it is to the producer's decision to implement things in Thief 4, not the people populating this forum. And that says it. As much as a troll statements as it seems: you, sir, came here looking for a quarrel. No real options in the poll, disregarding other people's remarks and oppinions. Not really nice. I am not going to make a psychological monument to TDS just because you think I should, and I would bet neither other people. TDS has good and bad things together. Let's make the best of this and stop making unsubtle manipulative attempts, shall we? (you blew your cover)

Caranfin
11th Jun 2009, 11:09
I believe you misunderstood his point, kabatta. Correct me if I'm wrong Crypto, but I felt the point of the poll was to drive home the fact that TDS wasn't an utterly horrible game and, in fact, managed to do some things right.

It's an intentionally weighted poll designed to make a point, not to ask if we think TDS was a great game or not.

kabatta
11th Jun 2009, 11:22
I believe you misunderstood his point, kabatta. Correct me if I'm wrong Crypto, but I felt the point of the poll was to drive home the fact that TDS wasn't an utterly horrible game and, in fact, managed to do some things right.

It's an intentionally weighted poll designed to make a point, not to ask if we think TDS was a great game or not.

The fact that TDS wasn't a wreck is mentioned in each and every topic that contains it as a main subject. :lol:

AbysmalGale
11th Jun 2009, 11:25
I believe you misunderstood his point, kabatta. Correct me if I'm wrong Crypto, but I felt the point of the poll was to drive home the fact that TDS wasn't an utterly horrible game and, in fact, managed to do some things right.

It's an intentionally weighted poll designed to make a point, not to ask if we think TDS was a great game or not.

So why even bother to make a poll about it? I think that's what confuses people the most. Sure, he wanted to make some kind of a point, but no one is gonna think "hmm... I think I judged TDS too hard since I can't choose alternative B".

kabatta
11th Jun 2009, 11:34
If each and every person wanted a threath to make a point we would have a forum with 10.000 posts with only a line each and no responses. I believe that I have seen at least 2-3 posts that are similar with this one in content (excluding the poll). Things are really starting to be repetitive.

kabatta
11th Jun 2009, 18:43
I think I have might overreacted at Crypto's posts. Sorry, Crypto. I still hold my ground, but should have not been so agressive. After reading other posts of yours I saw that you're an ok guy.

Crypto
11th Jun 2009, 19:29
Edited out.

kabatta
11th Jun 2009, 19:37
edited out

gpagonewest
11th Jun 2009, 19:42
Well done Crypto, Kabatta says sorry, so you just carry on like a 12 year old.

Nate
11th Jun 2009, 20:03
Well, Crypto there really isn't much more to this topic. You proved that Thief Deadly Shadows had some good points and a lot of bad points (but was overall a decent game). That was your goal, and you achieved it.

There really isn't any need for people here to get so pissed about a non issue...

Crypto
11th Jun 2009, 20:16
Well done Crypto, Kabatta says sorry, so you just carry on like a 12 year old.

Actually, at the time I typed up my response, I didn't see anything below post #78 (Kabatta's argument). I apologize to him for my short temper and for missing his attempt at reconciliation, but not to you for blundering into a debate in which you have no part. And cut the **** with the personal insults; they're not helping.

Kabatta: Really, I hadn't seen what you said. I'll edit out my post if you edit out your retraction of apology. Deal?

kabatta
11th Jun 2009, 20:30
What has been said remains.No point in hiding what I and you have said. I believe we should move on, ponder upon better things and let go on our little arguement.
Oh, well...as an attempt to reconciliation i will edit out the retraction of the apollogy.

Crypto
11th Jun 2009, 20:47
There. Now let's frolic in the meadows.

Nate
11th Jun 2009, 21:06
Thou shall not frolic in my house, Thief!

jtr7
11th Jun 2009, 22:32
I don't believe the veterans have black-and-white attitudes and it's not hard to prove their opinions on TDS, but the plain and obvious of what they are saying is hidden by minds clouded by emotion. My experience with the game is my own, and you can't tell me my experiences are wrong, but I expect you to tell me when I'm incorrect about the the facts. The veteran attitude is not just personal opinion, but a history of a multitude of personal opinions with common complaints and uncommon complaints. A grayscale palette of opinions with a hell of a lot of people in agreement, and a minority who disagree. No matter the plain and well-documented facts, the conflicting emotions are being treated as the facts by the opposition--so it strongly appears.

It's accumulated information (including that from the posts asking for help) versus what appears to be a willing dismissal of the truth (I said "APPEARS", and would appreciate help with having that perspective corrected if it's wrong). When the Hammerite taffers ask the Pagan taffers for the source of their opinion, the Hammerite taffers find ignorance and chaos--slander doesn't help, but evidence and rising above the tone to negate it works a lot better than fighting dirty. We could all be nicer about it, but defensive non-answers ruin any chance for understanding. Tell us how we are wrong without using emotion and impression as the main tools.

We see the calls for more crap to be put into the new game as a call for fertilizer to grow vile weeds over the beautiful foundations of The City. I don't want to cater to the people who aren't interested in non-combat, patience, and deliberate thinking. I would rather they continued to miss out for their narrow mindset. Of course, some of them can't help it and just wouldn't be happy in the Thief family, but others are shooting themselves in the foot. I don't think this should be made our problem. I don't think we should make concessions for them. We are already divided too much, and compromise for profit would make these discussion boards even more combative.

On a tangential note:
If someone has dismissed any aspect of the game as unimportant or irrelevant, the glaring holes in their opinion cannot be ignored, and are much more pronounced than the poster even knows. If this person claims to know what they are talking about, they are not going to be taken seriously, since it's obvious they don't. A person with vague impressions of the story is hardly qualified to speak about where the story should go next. A person with a vague understanding or dismissive attitude of why Thief needs to remain a rich collection of intelligent, rogue, unorthodox concepts is hardly qualified to suggest marketing ideas for a new game (although, there is a slim chance that someone might accidentally create a springboard idea that can be adapted for Thief without sullying it).

Thief should not conform to another market, but should challenge people to try something truly unique. Metaphorically, university textbooks should not be written to be digestible by middle school students, or cater to students majoring in other subjects, or be filled with excess information so learning is actually lost. Thief should be a game that tricks people into being smarter, a deeper thinker, and broaden their horizons. Thief should not be cluttered in a wild attempt to be all things to all people (an exaggeration, yes), but should stay a rich and elegant experience that happens to appeal to an interesting corss-section of society. Thief, as it has been, has appealed to people of all ages across the world, and how it IS has made that happen.

Crypto
12th Jun 2009, 00:44
Thou shall not frolic in my house, Thief!

:(

. . .

:scratch:

. . .

:rasp:

jtr7
12th Jun 2009, 01:00
Heh heh heh.

Crypto
12th Jun 2009, 01:07
Be quiet, jtr7, I saw your dissertation and as of now don't know how to respond. :p

jtr7
12th Jun 2009, 01:40
Factually, or not at all. Hopefully with much-needed humor. :p

Sapare
12th Jun 2009, 04:14
Even if it's an 11 year old kid that played TDS on his xbox and pumped every single moving thing with broadheads. I just don't want players like that influencing the series' future.



Just from my point of view, You guys should really stop blaming your problems on 11 and 13 year old's! I'm sure the guys you try to avoid are 16-19 and not 11 to 13 (and still NOT ALL OF THEM!) the ones that play shooting games.But that is not my point my point is that even to base behavior on age is just dumb. Sure there are the dumb 13 and 11 year old's but just because of that to go around saying that ALL the 11 year old's go around on their XBOX and just kill .... ! Is no better then saying all """" are killers.I find it highly offensive every time I read it and I read things like that allot.(the all 11 year old's are just playing action games part)

Vasquez
12th Jun 2009, 07:41
I have played the series from the beginning, but I also really enjoyed TDS very much. Of course it came nowhere near as an experience as TDP, but then, nothing does, because the first Thief was something completely unseen before for me, and the newness of it can't happen again.

AbysmalGale
12th Jun 2009, 08:30
Just from my point of view, You guys should really stop blaming your problems on 11 and 13 year old's! I'm sure the guys you try to avoid are 16-19 and not 11 to 13 (and still NOT ALL OF THEM!) the ones that play shooting games.But that is not my point my point is that even to base behavior on age is just dumb. Sure there are the dumb 13 and 11 year old's but just because of that to go around saying that ALL the 11 year old's go around on their XBOX and just kill .... ! Is no better then saying all """" are killers.I find it highly offensive every time I read it and I read things like that allot.(the all 11 year old's are just playing action games part)

Of course you are right. No one should be laughed at because of their age.

I think the point people try to make by this statement though is that 11-13 years old were hardly even born when the first two Thief games entered the market, thus could they not possibly have been part of the thief-community very long. And even people who now are 16-19 were probably not there from the start, since TDP was released in -98 and TMA in -00 (even though some might have). In a way it makes sense, because it's not extremely likely that modern kids would pick up an 11 year old PC game now in 2009, to explore the Thief universe. Most kids would be bored by the graphics an probably also by the slow gameplay that Thief requires. Of course there are also kids that would enjoy it, but frankly, many young ones today look for instant action and decent graphics. And that is often easier to find in a modern console game.

But regardless of that you have a good point. Don't turn down people because of age.

Corvin25
12th Jun 2009, 11:27
As I've said before, TDS wasn't a BAD game. It's just that is seemed like a disappointment after we were expecting another masterpiece like Thief 1 and 2.If it weren't for the strange fence system and the general easyness, it might have been looked upon much more favorably.

TheEye
15th Jul 2009, 18:27
simple, a poll. it's perfect

Flashart
15th Jul 2009, 19:28
Trying to please all people is never a satisfactory task, but if you're selling a game trying to please as many people as possible it's probably a more sensible option.
As long as the game allows a degree of "user friendly" combat and "all-out stealth" then that's fine. What is completely objectionable is if certain levels are designed to be played in a particular style. One of Thief's great strengths is that it allows a freedom for a wide variety of playing styles, imposing any extreme will impact everyone. TDP wasn't designed solely for the strict "hair shirt" wearing Ghosters, but it allowed them to do it anyway.

LordGervasius
25th Jul 2009, 09:27
Ouch. There are people out there that actually like TDS better than TMA? Thats amazing to me. I thought it was utter crap side by side.

Karras ruled. He was one of the funniest villains I've ever come across. He was twisted and malevolent but so comedic with his high pitched rambling it was hard to take him seriously.

Crypto
25th Jul 2009, 17:29
Sapare, as a seventeen-year-old I can say that your conclusion is not entirely accurate.