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gamer0004
7th Jun 2009, 18:13
I am getting more and more worried about DX3. Even if I ignore the details that have been released so far (which might be changed). Here are some DX3 facts:

1. Style over Substance:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/ares7777/Eidos_Arcadia_03.jpg

Deus Sx 3. Right.

2. The Ghost in the Shell look:

Random fan quotes:
-“I'm definitely getting a Final Fantasy/Ghost In The Shell feel from this”
-“I see a lot of influence by Ghost in the Shell”
-“It seems like a lot of the mech technology has been inspired by ghost in the Shell”
-“I'm getting a "Ghost In the Shell" vibe”
-“Looks sorta like what a Ghost in the shell game should be”
-“Looks like GitS: SAC a lot.”
-“It looks like it took some inspiration from Ghost in the Shell”

If we combine that with this Warren Spector quote:



GameSpy: Would you ever consider adopting, say, a more anime-style look to better appeal to console gamers?
Spector: That's a great question. I would never... (Okay, never's a big word... &c)

… then we can kind of understand that the look of Deus Ex 3 isn’t exactly in accordance with Warren Spector’s vision of Deus Ex.

3. The Target Audience:

A DX3 fan on HDTP:

"Seriously what the **** is the point of this mod in 2009 when DX3 is on the way why the **** woud anyone want to play the same game over andover again .

Are you adding any new levels [no, they don’t] ? if not what a ******* waste of time."

4. The Developers:

Deus Ex 3:

David Anfossi, producer:
-Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (SHOOTER)
-Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones
-AND 1 Streetball

Total amount of games: 3.
RPGs: 0.
Shooters: 1.

Deus Ex:

Warren Spector, producer:
-Ultima VI: The False Prophet (RPG)
-Ultima: Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams (RPG)
-Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (RPG)
-Shadowcaster (Action-RPG)
-Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds (RPG)
-Ultima VII (RPG)
-System Shock (Action-RPG)
-Thief (Stealth)
-Some space sims
-Some action games.

Total amount of games: 18.
RPGs: 7 (and one game with “RPG elements”).
Shooters: 1.



Deus Ex 3:

Jean-Francois Dugas, lead game designer:
-Far Cry: Instincts, (SHOOTER)
-Far Cry: Instincts – Evolution (SHOOTER)
-Far Cry: Instincts – Predator (SHOOTER)
-Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas (SHOOTER)
-Some racing games.

Total amount of games: 7
RPGs: 0.
Shooters: 4.

Deus Ex:

Harvey Smith, lead designer:

-Ultima VIII: Pagan (RPG)
-System Shock (ACTION-RPG)
-Wing Commander (Space sim)
-CyberMage: Darklight Awakening (Shooter with RPG elements)
-Fireteam Rogue (action game)

Total amount of games: 5.
RPGs: 2 (and one game with “RPG elements”).
Shooters: 1.



Deus Ex 3:

Francois Lapikas, senior game designer:
-Splinter Cell: Double Agent (SHOOTER)
-Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (SHOOTER)
-Knight's Apprentice, Memorick’s Adventures (Adventure)

Total amount of games: 3
RPGs: 0.
Shooters: 2.

Deus Ex:

Marshall Andrwes, game designer:

-Ultima VII: The Forge of Virtue (RPG)
-Ultima VII, Part Two: The Silver Seed (RPG)
-Ultima VII: Part Two - Serpent Isle (RPG)
-Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds (RPG)
-Shadowcaster (Action-RPG)
-Ultima: Runes of Virtue II (RPG)
-System Shock (Action-RPG)
-Fade to Black (Shooter)
-Ultima Online (MMORPG)
-Some action games

Total amount of games: 13.
RPGs: 8.
Shooters: 1.



Deus Ex 3:

Jean-Arthur Deda, Senior 3D programmer:
-Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Double Agent (SHOOTER)

Total amount of games: 1.
RPGs: 0.
Shooters: 1.

Deus Ex:

Scott Martin, programmer:

-Jane's Combat Simulations: 688(I) Hunter/Killer (Simulation)
-Jane's Combat Simulations: Fleet Command (Simulation)

Total amount of games: 2.
RPGs: 0.
Shooters: 1.

I'm starting to see a pattern here... (Developers of DX were much more experienced and had an RPG background, whereas most of the developers of DX3 come from the FPS/TPS-scene).



Then there's the "Senior narrative game designer", Mary Demarle.
She wrote - among other things - the storyline of Myst IV. Myst IV is a prequel.
She now works on the storyline of DX3. DX3 is (going to be) a prequel.
-“The storyline loses major points from me for being a complete retread of previous Myst games”
-“No significant story value”
-“In terms of the story it wasn't much”

That isn't looking very good either...


Sources:
1. Style over Substance: Photo by René, Festival Arcadia.
2. The Ghost in the Shell look: This forum, some random comments on random sites found by random googling.
3. The Target Audience: Offtopicproductions forum, HDTP section (http://offtopicproductions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2509&start=0)
Gamespy interview with Warren Spector (http://archive.gamespy.com/interviews/february03/spectordx2/)
4. The Developers:
-Warren Spector entry Wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Spector)
-Harvey Smith entry Wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Smith_(game_designer))
-http://www.mobygames.com/ (Mobygames)
-EidosMontreal.com - Testimonials (http://www.eidosmontreal.com/en/testimonials.html)
-EidosMontreal.com - Team (http://www.eidosmontreal.com//en/team.html)

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2009, 20:14
I don't know but I think there is some persons that will came up on this thread and would say "Bat Nipples", "the new Bethesda" and "The industry as a whole has grown up" ...

SageSavage
7th Jun 2009, 20:30
The absence of RPG-experience is indeed interesting but what is it with those quotes?



3. The Target Audience:

A DX3 fan on HDTP:
Quote:
"Seriously what the is the point of this mod in 2009 when DX3 is on the way why the woud anyone want to play the same game over andover again .

Are you adding any new levels [no, they don’t] ? if not what a *** waste of time."

What does a single quote about HDTP tell about the "Target Audience" of DX3? And we don't know what Warren Spector thinks about the visual style (which seems to have changed anyway) today.

LatwPIAT
7th Jun 2009, 21:21
gamer0004, that people compare DX3 to GitS is not necissarily a bad thing. The way I interpret it, Warren Spector was unwilling to use the art style of japanese animation to appeal to gamers. (Huge eyes! Huge hair! Oddly flat noses!) That doesn't mean that "looking a bit like" GitS is a bad thing, becuase what people have compared are the general design aesthetics, such as cityscapes and augs, which are fairly general and universal across all media, rather than character design. (Believe me. If a DX character has eyes wide than 16.66_% of their face or a chin sharp enough to cut cheese with, I will personal seek you out so we can propel a copy of DX3 to a speed of 90000m/s at the Eidos Montral HQ) Besides, much of GitS was liberally borrowed from Neuromancer and Blade Runner, and parts of DX are similar to GitS already, so this is not a worrying trend, but in fact people claiming it looks much like the old game. Myself, I cannot actually see these GitS-similarities at all, and you of all people should know I'd spot those fairly quickly. I see the design of DX3 as being reminiscent of Blade Runner and pretty much Blade Runner only.

Also, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory is not as much a shooter as a stealth game. While guns are present, guns are also present in Deus Ex and System Shock, and it would be a grave error in judgement to ever call those games "SHOOTERS"

But the fact that Deus Ex had a lot more experienced developers who'd actually made RPGs at one point while DX3 mostly has less experienced developers who haven't worked on RPGs... Let's hope they listen to their underlings, and that those underlings have worked on or at least played a lot of RPGs.

itsalladream
7th Jun 2009, 21:55
What is there to compare, other than, what, 2 pictures?

Lo Bruto
7th Jun 2009, 23:06
Right.

But I have the impression that all (at least the majority) comments about Ghost in Shell came from one or a couple of guys.

I hope.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
7th Jun 2009, 23:19
I really like the banner and the font/title design. :thumb:

I have to disagree about the GITS 'look'.... I certainly don't see any resemblance there. :scratch:
Nope, none at all. I did try.
I bet there are many gamers out there that compare DX3 art to other games too. Inevitable I guess.

As for the dev team and writers etc. A good compilation there of their work history, thanks. That doesn't say to me, however, that we should worry or definitely expect their efforts on DX3 to be somehow similar to their previous work. Most artists are, by their very nature, creative and quite capable of expanding their talents beyond what they have previously achieved. They're always pushing the envelope. I'm not going to worry too much about this myself. I'll wait and see.

With regard to Mary Demarle, why is this a worry for you? She is an accomplished writer, is she not? I appreciate that you've included some quotes there, but I'm sure there are people who think the exact opposite. As far as I know, the Myst games were received positively by critics and the games seem to average around the 80%+ on most ranking sites. Incedentally, is she also responsible for the upcoming SC: Conviction? Not sure myself but if so, the narrative seems pretty good from what I've seen on the trailer. :cool:

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2009, 23:50
I stay with a same statement
Deus Ex 3 would be a sort of Deus Ex in between dumbed down in some parts and screwed up in some others, but the overall would be the DX in between
Also Deus Ex 1 got many things that came from Gits in a certain form the thermoptic camo, the stealth pistol design, etc ...

Nathan2000
8th Jun 2009, 00:46
GameSpy: Would you ever consider adopting, say, a more anime-style look to better appeal to console gamers?
Spector: That's a great question. I would never... (Okay, never's a big word... &c)

Funny. I've been accused several times of quoting other people's words and omitting vital phrases. They seemed much more trivial that these ones. The more complete quote is:

GameSpy: Would you ever consider adopting, say, a more anime-style look to better appeal to console gamers? More generally, have you made any conscious design decisions or concessions since you're now designing with consoles in mind?
Spector: That's a great question. I would never... Okay, never's a big word. I don't like the idea of making decisions to appeal to a particular kind of audience. Obviously we want the maximum number of people to play and enjoy our games. But fundamentally, we make the games that we want to play, we make games that satisfy us, and that please us. And we hope there's a large enough audience out there that agrees with us.
You can see what's the question Spector was answering. It was about design choices and conforming one group at the expense of another. It has nothing to do with anime-style.

One more thing.

I am getting more and more worried about DX3.
I've heard it so many times, on so many occasions (not all of them justified such statements, in my opinion), that it has no effect on me.

Blade_hunter
8th Jun 2009, 02:00
Arf I suspected there was something omitted to that quote -_-'

thomasaquinas
8th Jun 2009, 02:42
I've heard it so many times, on so many occasions (not all of them justified such statements, in my opinion), that it has no effect on me.Really? When I see a rather large number of people taking the opposite position to me, I tend to give my current stance some reflection time. Novel idea, I know.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Jun 2009, 08:20
A "rather large" number of people? No doubt there is an equal amount of people who hold the opposite view (myself included).
I guess that should explain why some don't need to waste their time on reflection. Not an idea, just common sense, you know.

Nice work there on the quotes, Nathan. :thumb:
It all figures now. It was a conspiracy from gamer0004! :eek:
:D

imported_van_HellSing
8th Jun 2009, 08:30
I have to disagree about the GITS 'look'.... I certainly don't see any resemblance there. :scratch:
Nope, none at all. I did try.

:lmao:

There's HEAVY influence from GitS: Innocence. And it's a good thing.

And I know it's been pointed out Spector wasn't talking about anime, but: even if he were - SO WHAT? The last we've heard from this guy he was teaming up with John Woo to make a game about NINJAS!, And also, an EPIC MICKEY MOUSE GAME!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Jun 2009, 08:33
Are you talking about the 'look'/art style? Because that's what OP was refering to, and what I responded to.
I still don't see any similarity at all, no. Oh, and I'm not the only one you know. :p

imported_van_HellSing
8th Jun 2009, 08:50
Stay tuned for side-by-sides.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Jun 2009, 08:55
Thank you very much, that could be helpful. :)

PS. I want that banner for my games room wall! :D

Ashpolt
8th Jun 2009, 09:07
Good post, gamer0004. I've posted about my worries over Jean-Francois Dugas as lead designer before, but I didn't know about the rest of the team as well.

With Dugas, it's not the genre of his previous games that worries me so much as the trends with them. The Far Cry: Instincts games were average console versions of a great PC game with "cool" features ("feral powers") added. Rainbow Six: Vegas is an incredibly dumbed down iteration of what was once a heavily tactical series. It's still a great game in it's own right, IMO, but it's definitely not a Rainbow Six game, as they completely stripped out the planning sections and made the in-"action" sections a lot less tactical - and how did they do that? By adding regenerating health and a third person cover system. Hmm.

imported_van_HellSing
8th Jun 2009, 11:04
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3608/fetal1.jpg

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6674/screensk.jpg

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4200/rundown.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7655/armgun.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4674/apartment1.jpg

More coming still.

Nathan2000
8th Jun 2009, 11:22
Really? When I see a rather large number of people taking the opposite position to me, I tend to give my current stance some reflection time. Novel idea, I know.

It's not a large number of people but a few people constantly repeating it every second post and and a whole bunch of other guys using their right to express uninformed opinion. And I usually look at my opponents' arguments, not their quantity. I know it may be a surprise.

EDIT:
They both look cool.

Sabretooth1
8th Jun 2009, 12:11
I wouldn't mind a GitS vibe myself, I've always associated GitS and Deus Ex closely, so that's not a con in my opinion.

Also, a slight error in the analysis: Splinter Cell is not a Shooter game, it's a third-person stealth game where if you try to go guns-blazing, you're going to get your ass handed back to you. One of the very few stealth franchises, really. I'd actually like Splinter Cell team members working on Deus Ex too, Splinter Cell has some of the best stealth I've seen and has a reputation for being very polished and professional. Playing SC really reminded me of the stealth moments in Deus Ex.

As for the Style Over Substance point, 'Thi4f' shows that that's a favourite with Eidos Montreal. :p

K^2
8th Jun 2009, 13:24
I'm not sure why they even try to use Greek letters in a Latin phrase. Then again, DEVSEX is sure to be misread by some people.

Behindyounow
8th Jun 2009, 13:38
Deus ex 3 isn't turning into an anime POS. Anime is mostly the ridiculous looking people (granted, Barett looks stupid, but in the Anime way).

Nathan2000
8th Jun 2009, 14:05
I'm looking for sources of the quotes according Mary Demarle.

-“The storyline loses major points from me for being a complete retread of previous Myst games” - Lora's Adventure Game Reviews: Myst IV Revelation (http://www.geocities.com/ataniel/revelreview.htm) - on his site, the guy tells us more what he didn't like in the game:

Plot twists happen. I don't really care what they are. The point is this: what was great about Myst was discovering the plot for YOURSELF. THAT was why this game sold however many million copies it did. Not Rand Miller's acting skills. Not the backstory novels about the history of the D'ni Empire. It was the feeling of being there, not knowing what to do, and then figuring it out bit by bit by clicking on this and clicking on that and examining the clues scattered around, without any NPC's appearing in the first scene to give you a quest, recite the backstory for you, or give you a hokey tutorial on how to use the game interface.
-“No significant story value” - MYSTcommunity (http://www.mystcommunity.com/board/index.php?showtopic=33396&st=0) - some random guy on the Internet, creating new thread called "Was I the only one who really disliked this game?". Sounds familiar?
-“In terms of the story it wasn't much” - MYSTcommunity (http://www.mystcommunity.com/board/index.php?showtopic=33396&st=0) - the same thread

I wouldn't be myself if I didn't look for my own quotes. Here they are:

Myst III: Exile

http://www.tap-repeatedly.com/Reviews/Myst_3/Exile.shtml


An amazing characteristic about the design is that the story is developed throughout gameplay. And the game is entirely nonlinear. So it seems as though it was quite a trick to develop the story in such a way that pieces of it can be uncovered and assimilated in a number of different orders, just as the player is allowed to explore the ages and puzzles within them in varying order.

http://www.elecplay.com/reviews/view/?article=6519&full=1


Story: Aah, the story. It can be a difficult task to infuse a game that is primarily about solving puzzles with a strong story, a story that doesn't seem tacked on to give the puzzles an excuse for existing. The storyline is probably the strongest feature of Exile, and the main reason I gave it such a high score.

Myst IV: Revelation

http://www.justadventure.com/reviews/Myst4/Myst4.shtm


The story is marvelously interwoven with the game. As you explore the prison worlds you learn more about what has happened to the boys through their writings and achievements. You also learn a little more about what happened to people and places from the other Myst games.

http://www.worthplaying.com/article.php?sid=20741&mode=thread&order=0


Revelations is certainly the most story-based Myst so far, so if you're fond of plot in your adventure games... well, you're still playing a Myst title, so don't expect a The Longest Journey, unfortunately.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/553/553920p1.html


It boasts mind-bending, yet logical puzzles, graphics the likes you've never seen in a game of its class and a story worthy of its own novel.

...aaaand you have an idea why the guy from the first quote didn't like the game.


i'm not sure why they even try to use greek letters in a latin phrase. Then again, devsex is sure to be misread by some people.

MДИУ PЗФPLЭ HДVЗ STЯДЙGЭ IDЗДS (it's "many people have strange ideas" in case you can't read faux Cyrillics)

K^2
8th Jun 2009, 14:39
MДИУ PЗФPLЭ HДVЗ STЯДЙGЭ IDЗДS (it's "many people have strange ideas" in case you can't read faux Cyrillics)
I wouldn't have gotten it without the remark. I keep trying to parse it as actual Cyrillic. Now, if you wrote it like, "Мэни пипал хэв стрэнж айдиас", maybe I'd get it.

imported_van_HellSing
8th Jun 2009, 15:14
That's because you're a Vulcan.

gamer0004
8th Jun 2009, 16:00
Okay, quick reply:
The "DX3 fan" thingy was of course a joke.

The Warren Spector wasn't a conspiracy, if you read carefully he answers to the question "Would you ever consider adopting, say, a more anime-style look to better appeal to console gamers?" Say, to appeal to... Really, I don't think the rest of what WS says matters in this case, but I suppose that someone might miss some of the details.

Calling Splinter Cell a shooter might've been wrong, but I was under the impression that only the first couple of games were stealth games, and the rest were mere shooters. I might be mistaken, though.

And then there's Myst IV.
The topic was, indeed, "Was I the only one who really disliked this game?". So when I first saw the htread I thought "nice, turns out she is rather good". Then I read things like "now you mention it, the storyline really was rather bad" I found some quotes. The rest of the topic wasn't about (whether or not they liked) the storyline.

LatwPIAT
8th Jun 2009, 16:12
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3608/fetal1.jpg
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6674/screensk.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4200/rundown.jpg
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7655/armgun.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4674/apartment1.jpg
More coming still.
1) Between Stanley Kubrick and my English teacher, I'm pretty sure a fetus, especially floating ones, predate GitS:Innocense by, oh, at least 36 years.
2) I'm sure Marumo Oshii has a patent on the colour orange. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochrome_monitor)
4) Arm cannons. I've never seen those before. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArmCannon)
5) Have I mentioned Blade Runner yet? Or the entire genre of Film Noir?

imported_van_HellSing
8th Jun 2009, 16:25
1) Between Stanley Kubrick and my English teacher, I'm pretty sure a fetus, especially floating ones, predate GitS:Innocense by, oh, at least 36 years.

Floating cyborg fetuses?



2) I'm sure Mamoru Oshii has a patent on the colour orange. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monochrome_monitor)

He does seem very fond of using monochrome amber monitors. Innocence, Avalon, the remastered GitS... Also, the amber palette is not only applied to screens but locations too. Compare the vistas of Innocence with DX3's Shanghai. And speaking of lifting color palettes, I notice you conveniently skipped no.3.


4) Arm cannons. I've never seen those before. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArmCannon)

Also arms that unfold into distinct panels supported by small pistons?


5) Have I mentioned Blade Runner yet? Or the entire genre of Film Noir?

Have I? I think I did. In fact, I'd say DX3 invokes Blade Runner via Innoncence. And I'm not sure Deckard had big-ass vertical windows at his apartment.

K^2
8th Jun 2009, 17:15
That's because you're a Vulcan.
No, I'm pretty sure this one's because I'm Russian. And what is it with all the hints or direct mention of the Vulcans wherever I post?

Well, whatever. Live long and prosper.

AaronJ
8th Jun 2009, 17:52
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3608/fetal1.jpg

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6674/screensk.jpg

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4200/rundown.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7655/armgun.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4674/apartment1.jpg

More coming still.

Oh my dear god.

Spyhopping
8th Jun 2009, 19:48
Oh my dear god.

That was my reaction. The understated comments here don't make sense to me.

I knew of the visual similarities... but bloody hell.

SageSavage
8th Jun 2009, 20:06
Right, bloody hell... I like it.

KSingh77
8th Jun 2009, 20:40
Guess many deveolpers including Jean-Francois Dugas are fans of Ghost in the Shell,right?

Spyhopping
8th Jun 2009, 20:51
It's not just the similar image structure and theme but the colour schemes are very like one another too :-S.
Although now I look at it, I'm not so bothered with the colour of the monitors or the fetus.

LatwPIAT
8th Jun 2009, 21:38
Floating cyborg fetuses?
I will have to correct you here. That's an android fetus.*[/geek]
Cyborg fetuses? Maybe not... Still, "cyborg + fetus" is not a very huge leap of imagination and... THE MATRIX!


He does seem very fond of using monochrome amber monitors. Innocence, Avalon, the remastered GitS... Also, the amber palette is not only applied to screens but locations too. Compare the vistas of Innocence with DX3's Shanghai. And speaking of lifting color palettes, I notice you conveniently skipped no.3.

Couldn't think of an argument for #3... I will have to agree. There is an abundance of amber shades in DX3, not quite unlike Innocence. While it could be a coincidence, it sure doesn't look like it...


Also arms that unfold into distinct panels supported by small pistons?

I don't actually have very good memory prior to 2005, so I'll have to pass on answering this.


Have I? I think I did. In fact, I'd say DX3 invokes Blade Runner via Innoncence. And I'm not sure Deckard had big-ass vertical windows at his apartment.
His house doesn't look like DX3 at all. I was thinking more of the Police Chief's office or Tyrell HQ. Now, I've only watched Innocence once, so maybe you're right, it does look a bit like GitS, but the visual spectrum I was subjected to upon watching that movie was so wide I couldn't really make any consensus on what it look like. In one moment, dark. The next, red! Then amber! Then green! Then bluish-white with a little amber on the side!

*Don't ask me how an android fetus works, OK...

MagnumJoe
8th Jun 2009, 21:39
So Deus Ex 3 is going to be a japanese shooter :P?

KSingh77
8th Jun 2009, 21:45
I hope not

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Jun 2009, 22:02
Thanks, van_Hellsing, I do appreciate the time you've put into finding those images. :)
I think I initially misunderstood the meaning of 'look'. I can see now you are comparing general concept and specific environments/images, rather than that of a particular "art style". My bad. At the time, I couldn't understand why you were comparing DX3 art direction to anything anime/manga.

They are interesting comparisons, I have to say. Whilst I do see similarities, I don't think it is an unusual situation. Even the GITS movie screenshots were compared to that of the Matrix movie and plenty of similarities were found. Nevertheless, these two movies are both masterpieces in their own right. So, it could be that DX3 will be a masterpiece in its own right. You know I've always hoped for that. :p

A cyborg fetus/body and suggestion of 'birth' has been done way back in early fiction writing. Rossum's robots were all biological creations and his book was written in the early 1900s, I believe. I see some yellow and black screens. Same colour, I agree, but I don't find that such a shocking coincidence. I guess all sewers are going to look pretty much the same, though the DX3 sewer looks strangely more appealing, hehe. As for Batou & Barrett with their guns, I think such a view from the gun-barrel and character isn't unusual. Even Lara likes to do that. Dukey's (still forever) is another that comes to mind. Finally, we have an apartment with windows on the same wall. This is probably the least "convincing" like-for-like, for me anyway. I mean, isn't it inevitable for a side-built apartment? We are going to see walls to interior section and windows on the exterior wall. Either side, it doesn't matter. Other than that, its a totally different residence. Just another apartment really.

This is fun though. :D Did you say there were more to come? Looking forward to the next lot of pictures. :thumb:

imported_van_HellSing
8th Jun 2009, 22:34
I'll post the second batch tomorrow, along with more in-depth analysis. Going to sleep now.

itsalladream
9th Jun 2009, 02:20
Of course some of those screen shots are going to look similar - they are both animated, dark, and dreary with similar themes.

PlasmaSnake101
9th Jun 2009, 02:36
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3608/fetal1.jpg

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6674/screensk.jpg

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4200/rundown.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7655/armgun.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4674/apartment1.jpg

More coming still.

Just one word...
DAMN! Someone got shot DOWN!


On that note, I don't think it is a big deal. If the design reflected anime then I would be upset, but it does not. It has similarities with an anime. While they may take ideas from Ghost in the Shell, I'm not too worried. People hear anime and think Pokemon and Yugioh (bright locations and kiddy looking characters), when dark anime has it's moments. Shows like Death Note, Hellsing, and others I haven't got to watching reflect gritty, dirty locations, with gritty dark characters.

Ghost in the Shell and Deus Ex have a theme in common, that;s why you see similarities. Gunther kind of reminds me of that one felllow with no pupils. He has a picture above. Not personality but appearance, at least with the solid colored eyes.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Jun 2009, 06:52
Yeah, I've seen the GITS movies and I have never once thought of Deus Ex 1, IW or DX3. :D
I think (in any comparison between whatever game or movie etc) the similarities will be there, but only if you want to look for them.

a house
9th Jun 2009, 09:21
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5741/sanstitreem4.jpg
These guys look very much like the police from the first GITS film, don't have their picture though.

imported_van_HellSing
9th Jun 2009, 09:53
Now that's a bit of a stretch. That's just semi-realistic tactical gear.

Daedalus Ciarán
9th Jun 2009, 10:57
I've gotta say most of this discussion around GITS and DX3 seems to be firmly wrapped in anti-anime viewpoints. Yeah DX3 has some stylistic similarities in its representation of physical areas, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing; Anime has some fantastic animation and artistic style. At its best it can surpass most American animation, and rival anything put out by Disney. Honestly, when I first bought the PCZone issue with the article regarding DX3, I really loved the locations pictured. I thought it looked superb. The only reason people are complaining about the way the game art looks is because they can compare it to GITS, which is immediately influenced by anti-anime sentiment.

How many ways can you draw or create a guy with a giant gun for an arm? Someone who carries a ridiculously big gun immediately conjures up certain images; He's going to have to be extremely strong and muscle-y. Since he's able to get weaponry like that and has the time to work out he's probably in the army or some military group; hence the shaved head. Then when you combine these things you start thinking of brawn over brain. Maybe it's a cliché to create a character thus, but to say it comes from GITS is laying too much credit at its feet. They didn't come up with the image, that's been around for years. DX3 is simply utilising the same image that they did. As for the pictures of the offices? The similarities pretty much end with there being a desk, chair, four walls, a roof and large windows. The style of the room is completely different. GITS is straight, linear and new. Its only use is in being a room, to provide an enclosure. DX3 has architectural embellishments meaning the room was made to be both aesthetically pleasing and provide comfort, and to function as an enclosure. It also implies that the room has history since we assume future buildings will be minimalist and purely functional. I mean, if we're going to compare the two rooms we might as well compare the apartment from Friends because as we all know, that had large windows as well. And as for the sewer? Its a sewer. How different can you possibly make it from everything we've seen before? It's green from grime and perhaps some fungus growth, it's shadowy because there is only a small, artificial light. And it's underground because it's a sewer.

I agree that the fact that the Devs have so little experience in RPGs is worrying, though it does not mean they're less capable of creating an RPG. You wouldn't say that Christopher Nolan is incapable of doing a comedy, an epic or a romance film just because he's only done drama. Nor would you say that Chuck Berry is incapable of creating a heavy rock song. Perhaps the Devs are better able to create an action shooter, but that doesn't mean that they're going to, trying to or even interested in making one. This is one of the problems with this forum, there's no way to ask a developer what games they like and what they prefer to play. Thus we don't know if they were contractually obliged to create only action games by higher ups, or were perhaps simply in that line of game development because they couldn't get into Ion Storm's RPG department. What we don't know is more worrying for me than what we do know since we know so very little.

Irate_Iguana
9th Jun 2009, 11:22
Anime has some fantastic animation and artistic style. At its best it can surpass most American animation, and rival anything put out by Disney.

Some people like the animation and artistic style. There are also people who absolutely hate that style. It is a very personal thing. Perhaps DX attracts more people who dislike anime than people who like it.



Thus we don't know if they were contractually obliged to create only action games by higher ups, or were perhaps simply in that line of game development because they couldn't get into Ion Storm's RPG department.

Dugas calls DX "kind of slow," saying that "there weren't enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience." That is a bad sign. It doesn't depend on his previous projects, it is an all-round bad sign.

imported_van_HellSing
9th Jun 2009, 11:33
that style

Which style? Please describe the visual similarities between, say, Ghost In The Shell and Pokemon.


Dugas calls DX "kind of slow," saying that "there weren't enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience." That is a bad sign. It doesn't depend on his previous projects, it is an all-round bad sign.

If they take the inspiration for pace from Ghost In The Shell as much as the visual style, we don't have anything to worry about.

a house
9th Jun 2009, 11:47
Now that's a bit of a stretch. That's just semi-realistic tactical gear.
It's definitely GITS silly tactical gear. I think they even had those collars in GITS, but I don't know for sure.

imported_van_HellSing
9th Jun 2009, 11:59
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6756/bulletprooftacticalvest.jpg

Stranger than fiction, no?

Malah
9th Jun 2009, 12:24
If they take the inspiration for pace from Ghost In The Shell as much as the visual style, we don't have anything to worry about.

That actually makes sense :thumb:

If action is mixed into the huge cauldron of story, it will definitely make it memorable. I don't want to add too much pessimism, but sadly I have little faith in their ability to judge what the correct ratio is.

Blade_hunter
9th Jun 2009, 12:25
Actually there is a body armor called the Dragon skin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYaSRIbPWkM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_HRQNd84ZA

Look at this :)

Malah
9th Jun 2009, 12:32
Cool, but ineffective. I hope body armor is DX3 will be liquid based. Then regen and whatnot would be plausible..

Daedalus Ciarán
9th Jun 2009, 14:07
Cool, but ineffective. I hope body armor is DX3 will be liquid based. Then regen and whatnot would be plausible..

Liquid based? How would you go about creating that?

I think you could take the Dragon Skin, add basic nanites to the composition which would be programmed to repair damage over a period of time. Hell if twenty years later they can be programmed to repair skin, surely fabric would be a basic, first test taken? Adam could be around that successful basic test. Then you can utilise it in the field.

Irate_Iguana
9th Jun 2009, 14:13
Which style? Please describe the visual similarities between, say, Ghost In The Shell and Pokemon.


There is a difference between GitS and Pokemon. Just as there is a difference between say Punisher Max and Garfield. General body proportions and character build-up from GitS do follow a typical structure from anime. It might not have the huge eyes and lack of noses, but you know that it has to be a Japanese cartoon.



Actually there is a body armor called the Dragon skin

Which had problem with the individual plates letting go of the armor. Not something you want in a bulletproof vest.

a house
9th Jun 2009, 14:30
Stranger than fiction, no?
I didn't say ballistic collars are fiction :hmm: The color and composition of the armor simply remind me of the GITS police armor.

...now **** off :)

Malah
9th Jun 2009, 14:43
Liquid based? How would you go about creating that?
Magnetorheological fluid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetorheological_fluid)

Non-Newtonian fluids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid) might also have military applications beyond shock absorption in the future. see Orange Goo Goes Ballistic (http://www.nano.org.uk/news/march2009/latest1808.htm)


+ How Liquid Body Armor Works (http://science.howstuffworks.com/liquid-body-armor1.htm)

LatwPIAT
9th Jun 2009, 14:45
I didn't say ballistic collars are fiction :hmm: The color and composition of the armor simply remind me of the GITS police armor.

...now **** off :)

It's black and white! Black and white and grey! SAS wears black and white and grey! The Combine wear black and white and grey (and the occasional blue) The Schutssaffel wore black! The main character of Killzone wears black and grey! The main character in Jin Roh wears black and grey! German WWI soldiers in trench coats in were grayish.

Blade_hunter
9th Jun 2009, 18:00
I found something like this on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vetyGCqJ_rU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c40t-YLVPJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plM6Pp1St6I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-j7n0AnIGM

I don't know if the things I found are very well or not but enjoy watching ...

Malah
9th Jun 2009, 19:38
OK I found the presentation I was looking for -- Dragon skin does not meet required protection standards (http://militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/dragon_skin_release_000121may07.pdf)

Step-by-step guide to how the tests were done and the results.

Dresden
9th Jun 2009, 19:50
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4674/apartment1.jpg

more coming still.

omg a room with tall windows on the side what a ripoff!!!!111!!1

I love the style they're going with, but it seems way too futuristic to be set before DX1.

imported_van_HellSing
9th Jun 2009, 21:33
OK, sorry about no update today, but I'm still working on it. Might take a few days, it's indepth stuff rather than just images.

FrankCSIS
9th Jun 2009, 22:01
Dugas calls DX "kind of slow," saying that "there weren't enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience." That is a bad sign. It doesn't depend on his previous projects, it is an all-round bad sign.

That the action bits of the game are sometimes more epic, I have no real problem with. What I'm more worried about is the idea of "always having a choice to talk or shoot". I don't want to constantly be in a situation where shooting the sh"t is an option. I hope the game respects the adventure/rpg part of DX, which was that in many scenes or parts there simply was no action at all. Exploration and investigation are an integral part of this hybrid style, and a wonderful style of game that hasn't been seen in nearly a decade. Adventure fans will understand why I miss this genre so much in games, nowadays.

So if this is the part about the pace Dugas finds to be too slow, then I just may cry in silence. If it's the action he thought was too much of a simulation, I think it's silly, but at least I see his point, and could live with a bit of a faster pace.

KSingh77
9th Jun 2009, 23:29
Boy Adam's apartment is a mess,doesn't he ever clean up.Maybe if he's mother was around to yell at him.

itsalladream
10th Jun 2009, 01:57
It's definitely GITS silly tactical gear. I think they even had those collars in GITS, but I don't know for sure.

He goes from "definitely," to "I think," to "I don't know for sure." Absolutely beautiful argument.


I mean, if we're going to compare the two rooms we might as well compare the apartment from Friends because as we all know, that had large windows as well.

Holy crap dude! I thought the exact same thing as you, but couldn't find a good picture, so I left off trying to compare them.

WhatsHisFace
10th Jun 2009, 05:26
[innocence/dx3 comparisons]

more coming still.

noooooooooooo!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Jun 2009, 07:38
I love the style they're going with, but it seems way too futuristic to be set before DX1.

You're kidding, right. Which bits look too futuristic?
My bf's apartment looks very much like that, including the large projection screen.



Boy Adam's apartment is a mess,doesn't he ever clean up.

Yeah, my bf's apartment is like that too. :D

DXeXodus
10th Jun 2009, 11:15
Does your boyfriend have a hexagon on his forehead?

Daedalus Ciarán
10th Jun 2009, 11:18
Magnetorheological fluid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetorheological_fluid)

Non-Newtonian fluids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid) might also have military applications beyond shock absorption in the future. see Orange Goo Goes Ballistic (http://www.nano.org.uk/news/march2009/latest1808.htm)


+ How Liquid Body Armor Works (http://science.howstuffworks.com/liquid-body-armor1.htm)

According to the Wiki article for Magnetorheological fluid the substance could theoretically be used in mechanical augmentations. It is used in prosthetic limbs as it is. So it would make sense. The only problem with it being used as body armour is that the tech is still deep in development so it may turn out to be impossible, which would suck as the game would be dated then in two or three years. Of course if the game's still in development when the research will be released, they may be in a better position to incorporate it into the game.

But good find. Very interesting stuff.

Daedalus Ciarán
10th Jun 2009, 11:23
You're kidding, right. Which bits look too futuristic?
My bf's apartment looks very much like that, including the large projection screen.

:eek: What does your boyfriend do that he can have a giant apartment from the future?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Jun 2009, 11:57
Does your boyfriend have a hexagon on his forehead?
Not yet. Is there such a thing as a hexagonal shaped saucepan? :D


:eek: What does your boyfriend do that he can have a giant apartment from the future?

Builds/mods computers. ;)
Umm, I was likening the apartment layout though. His is long with windows on the right, and his projection screen is on the exact same wall. :)

Daedalus Ciarán
10th Jun 2009, 12:30
Builds/mods computers.
Umm, I was likening the apartment layout though. His is long with windows on the right, and his projection screen is on the exact same wall.

Awh... my dreams of finding a giant apartment from the future are shattered once more.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Jun 2009, 13:58
Why?
There's nothing 'futuristic' about an old apartment with windows, or a projection screen.

The DX3 image is a typical apartment in a mere 18 years time, not 500 years. So, if you want it, go get it! :D

KSingh77
10th Jun 2009, 18:01
I want a huge ass flat screen tv like what the apartment has.

I wonder if it is HD?

Necros
10th Jun 2009, 19:30
It's not a large number of people but a few people constantly repeating it every second post and and a whole bunch of other guys using their right to express uninformed opinion. And I usually look at my opponents' arguments, not their quantity. I know it may be a surprise.
:thumb:

And Mary DeMarle is a great writer, gamer0004, check out this page: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/mary-demarle/4/401/332
About your rant: I disagree, so far it looks like DX3 could be a very good game. Yes, the regen health is bad, but it's not a deal breaker for me, it could be done well, so it won't bother me much. And a developer's bakground is not everything, just look at Sheldon Pacotti's game credits. :)

I love the style they're going with, but it seems way too futuristic to be set before DX1.
:rolleyes: Oh boy, here we go again...

thomasaquinas
10th Jun 2009, 22:06
Why?
There's nothing 'futuristic' about an old apartment with windows, or a projection screen.

The DX3 image is a typical apartment in a mere 18 years time, not 500 years. So, if you want it, go get it! :DI'm not so sure. Remember the discussion with Leo Gold in the Statue? The underclasses, that is, 99% of the population never saw the technological advances. The average apartment in Deus Ex, set after Deus Ex 3, looked pretty much like apartments today. Of course, Bob Page owned some impressive tech, but the everyday person in the Deus Ex world had less than they do in 2009.

Blade_hunter
10th Jun 2009, 22:22
The only thing I see about the shots they are very close to GitS, just the atmosphere is almost equals
About the dragon skin I can't tell if it's effective or not because it seems to have a great controversy about the tests ...

K^2
11th Jun 2009, 02:39
According to the Wiki article for Magnetorheological fluid the substance could theoretically be used in mechanical augmentations. It is used in prosthetic limbs as it is. So it would make sense. The only problem with it being used as body armour is that the tech is still deep in development so it may turn out to be impossible, which would suck as the game would be dated then in two or three years. Of course if the game's still in development when the research will be released, they may be in a better position to incorporate it into the game.

But good find. Very interesting stuff.
There are some serious limitations which make me think that we won't see any bullet-resistant armor from this stuff. Maybe if you add some fibers as well... But it seems unlikely.

You might come up with smart working suits, however, that protect worker from slower moving but heavier object.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jun 2009, 09:10
I'm not so sure. Remember the discussion with Leo Gold in the Statue? The underclasses, that is, 99% of the population never saw the technological advances. The average apartment in Deus Ex, set after Deus Ex 3, looked pretty much like apartments today. Of course, Bob Page owned some impressive tech, but the everyday person in the Deus Ex world had less than they do in 2009.

The "technological advances" Leo was discussing included audio/visual entertainment systems?
Underclasses or not, the majority of people who had an apartment in DX1 appear to at least be able to afford a television set and/or a computer etc.
In terms of the current image, when I say 'typical apartment', I obviously mean one lived in by someone who is employed and receiving a salary, as Adam does. It is pretty normal to want to spend your hard-earned money on tasty gadgets. :)

thomasaquinas
11th Jun 2009, 10:06
The "technological advances" Leo was discussing included audio/visual entertainment systems?
Underclasses or not, the majority of people who had an apartment in DX1 appear to at least be able to afford a television set and/or a computer etc.
In terms of the current image, when I say 'typical apartment', I obviously mean one lived in by someone who is employed and receiving a salary, as Adam does. It is pretty normal to want to spend your hard-earned money on tasty gadgets. :)Point stands. Even Maggie Chow's apartment looked less futuristic than this.

PenguinsFriend
11th Jun 2009, 10:20
boats with holo images on top, cities on "stilts," futuristic high-tech subways, and you guys are quibbling over whether his apartment is too fancy for 20 years time? lol lol :nut:

Daedalus Ciarán
11th Jun 2009, 11:35
There's nothing 'futuristic' about an old apartment with windows, or a projection screen.

The DX3 image is a typical apartment in a mere 18 years time, not 500 years. So, if you want it, go get it!

I would but I'm poor. Plus it's 95% houses over here. There's a general dislike of apartments so there's nothing as big as your boyfriend's apartment being made. I was hoping I could get in there with you two. I'd be like the third wheel you've always dreamed of. I'd be like the gay best friend. Except I'm not gay. And I'm a complete stranger...

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jun 2009, 12:49
Point stands. Even Maggie Chow's apartment looked less futuristic than this.

Maggie Chow has her own tastes. Perhaps she was a minimalist. Who knows...

Okay, perhaps you could list for me what elements in the apartment you deem as "too futuristic". Only, I can't really see anything in there that isn't already current today, or would not be around in a decade or so from now. That's my point. :)


boats with holo images on top, cities on "stilts," futuristic high-tech subways, and you guys are quibbling over whether his apartment is too fancy for 20 years time? lol lol :nut:

Hehe, I'm not quibbling though. :D I really don't see anything too fancy in there 18 years from now, do you?

BlazeL
11th Jun 2009, 22:30
Maggie Chow has her own tastes. Perhaps she was a minimalist. Who knows...

I hope you are kidding... Maggie Chow? A minimalist? Have you ever heard what May Sung (the maid) was mumbling? That the floor coverings are handmaiden and are from Tibet? And that they have many prized Buddhas? Have you ever looked around there? Hers is one of the most richly decorated apartments in the whole game! Let's see, she has the penthouse part of a luxury living tower building with a private elevator in one of the most expensive districts of Honk Kong. She has there a piano, gallery, huge bathroom (tough not with a bathtube or a pool) and a small conference room with paintings, statues, flowers, lampions; a whole bunch of decorative elements and ornamentic textures. Definitely not like a minimalist! Oh, she doesn't have a huge plasma TV. That's correct.

About minimalism. Deus Ex's whole style was minimalist. Of course, it was partly because technical limitations of it's age, but still, if sy nowadays say that one of its mostly decorated part belonged to a minimalist, it means something. I think it was intentional. And i really liked in it. That's why the excrescent renaissance shi... visual elements of DX3 bothers me much. And besides, yes, it looks more futuristic. The whole visual style. I can't put a finger on it, it just looks like that way. (There are futuristic things today like furnitures etc, and you don't judge them futuristic because they are from the future or feasible only in the future. It's just an impression. DX3 images gives me this impression. So far.)
Deus Ex looked like something from its era (early 2000's) with some futuristic elements (computers etc). An average apartment looked like an actual average one. Adam's apartment not looking like an actual apartment today. And I know that retro is really fashioned in video games, but it wasn't part of the DX graphical style. So if they want some retro, why don't they create a '90's look. It's not that recognisable, but not a BioShock ripoff, at least. So, if Adam is rich to some extent, his apartment is OK. But if he's an average guy...

lumpi
11th Jun 2009, 23:29
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3608/fetal1.jpg

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6674/screensk.jpg

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4200/rundown.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7655/armgun.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4674/apartment1.jpg

More coming still.

OK, if they deny developer's GITS love at this point, it would simply be ridiculous. It's the same damn art style. Personally, I don't mind, it looks excellent. I hate big, kitschy anime eyes as much as the next guy, but GITS is one step above that criticism. It simply an amazing, imaginative work of art (and look how tiny those eyes are).


boats with holo images on top, cities on "stilts," futuristic high-tech subways, and you guys are quibbling over whether his apartment is too fancy for 20 years time? lol lol :nut:
lol, well put. I never understood why they went with the "obvious non-obvious choice" and made... A PREQUEL!11 (OMGWZ, it's not a sequel!)...
If DX2's endings weren't as ridiculous, I would have preferred a sequel set in 2100 or so. 2027... think today compared to 1991. Alright, we got the internet and cell phones. But streets and clothing basically look the same.

Deus Ex 1 was amazingly realistic (although in a flipped out way). It was a perfect rendition of what the world might look like 50 years from 2000. DX3 seems to trade realism for style which is indeed a bad sign. The number, 2027, simply doesn't add up.

KSingh77
11th Jun 2009, 23:49
Found another similarity between DX3 and GiTS

http://internetservices.readingeagle.com/blog/moviehouse/ghost%20innocence.jpg

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2009/04/shanghai2_01.jpg

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Jun 2009, 23:58
I hope you are kidding... Maggie Chow? A minimalist? Have you ever heard what May Sung (the maid) was mumbling? That the floor coverings are handmaiden and are from Tibet? And that they have many prized Buddhas? Have you ever looked around there? Hers is one of the most richly decorated apartments in the whole game! Let's see, she has the penthouse part of a luxury living tower building with a private elevator in one of the most expensive districts of Honk Kong. She has there a piano, gallery, huge bathroom (tough not with a bathtube or a pool) and a small conference room with paintings, statues, flowers, lampions; a whole bunch of decorative elements and ornamentic textures. Definitely not like a minimalist! Oh, she doesn't have a huge plasma TV. That's correct.

I'm not kidding. I think you misunderstood us.
We are actually talking about technological advances, ie gadgets and stuff - not household textiles or property status. It's quite normal for people to mingle various lifestyle tastes and preferences.
My comment was to suggest (I did say, 'who knows?') that perhaps she held a minimalist attitude toward technology, which would go some way to explaining to thommy (whose question I was specifically replying to) why her property may seem less 'futuristic' than Adams does.

BlazeL
12th Jun 2009, 00:12
I'm not kidding. I think you misunderstood us.
We are actually talking about technological advances, ie gadgets and stuff - not household textiles or property status. It's quite normal for people to mingle various lifestyle tastes and preferences.
My comment was to suggest (I did say, 'who knows?') that perhaps she held a minimalist attitude toward technology, which would go some way to explaining to thommy (whose question I was specifically replying to) why her property may seem less 'futuristic' than Adams does.

I got that, that's why i implemented the plasma TV line. She wasn't a technological minimalist neither. She had a security computer and alarm system, doors opened by button pressing. That's not minimalistic technologically neither at the very least. You are just not right about this possibility.

If i misunderstood you, than it was in a part that wasn't completely clear in itself. (Conversation was about visual style basically, and a subtopic was the technological things. 'Minimalist' as an expression has a strong meaning in a discussion about graphics too, so you weren't just 100% clear, i think. Or at least i hope that my understanding of English language is not that bad...)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2009, 00:30
I got that, that's why i implemented the plasma screen line. She wasn't minimalist technological way neither. She had a security computer and alarm system and doors opening with button pushing. That's not minimalistic technologically neither at the very least. You are just not right about that possibility.

Yes, we already said that many residences in DX1 had computers. As for lifts, doors, alarm systems etc, these things were probably included with the property portfolio. Most high-class, expensive residences come with elevators and good security features by default, I doubt she had to buy and install this stuff herself. So, that still means that her 'personal' taste for technology may have been minimalistic, it is still a possibility. Again, we don't really know. I never said I know. It was just a consideration to explain the difference between her residence and Adam's.

Anyway, to return to the main point again, let's backtrack on this discussion. It was suggested that Maggie's apartment looked less futuristic than Adam's. I am trying to understand why this is so, as I cannot see anything in Adam's residence that would confirm his apartment looks too futuristic. I am still waiting for a list of items that would help explain. Perhaps you can help here?

IOOI
12th Jun 2009, 00:34
One thing is for sure. I wasn't expecting it to had Steampunk or "Medieval fantasy" references. :rasp:
I like what they're trying to accomplish, having references/influences from GitS is the most natural thing that should be expected by now.:hmm:

BlazeL
12th Jun 2009, 01:06
Anyway, to return to the main point again, let's backtrack on this discussion. It was suggested that Maggie's apartment looked less futuristic than Adam's. I am trying to understand why this is so, as I cannot see anything in Adam's residence that would confirm this. I am still waiting for a list of items that can be deemed as too futuristic. Perhaps you can help here?

Sorry, substantialy i can't. I don't agree completely with that statement neither. Actually i have never said that his apartment looks more futuristic. On that picture, it is not really. What i said was that the overall graphical style of the game is futuristic.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj392/KOLMod/deusEx3_conceptArt_v04.jpg

I dont know if this picture shows his apartment or not. If so, that tank on the left wall looks a bit out of place and gives a bit strange (retro-futuristic?) feeling. And oh yes, i got something now on the cited image too, there are at least two things that gives it the same strange feel. The hexagonal lighting in the ceiling, and yes, the plasma screen. They are just strange in the overall renaissance environment and it sets off their futuristicness... (Addition to the television: It looks futuristic because in DX, we usually see 'normal TVs and i can't recall any of the big plasma TVs with the constant news broadcast from any of the apartments. But as i said, it's ok if Jensen is rich.) Plus the floor is way too shiny and the reflections on it are too sharp, like if it would be glass.

So after this, hopefully you can also return to the main argument, which is: why is the DX3 art style problematic...


As for lifts, doors, alarm systems etc, these things were probably included with the property portfolio. Most high-class, expensive residences come with elevators and good security features by default, I doubt she had to buy and install this stuff herself. So, that still means that her 'personal' taste for technology may have been minimalistic, it is still a possibility. Again, we don't really know.

I still insist, that she can't be a technological minimalist. A tech minimalist would hate japanese type sliding doors that can be opened only by buttons... and thinking about it, it's hilarious. (Moreover, there is no alarm buttons in the other parts of Queen's Tower neither...)
But because this whole argument starts to get ridiculous, i'm stopping here.

teknikal-vision
12th Jun 2009, 01:08
Those comparisons between GITS and DX3 display an uncanny resemblance.

As much as I love the art style of DX3 for what it is, there is still a awful feeling in my gut that it just isn't the Deus Ex I know and love. Too much style is a good point. Reality isn't uniformly stylish when you look at it on the macro level.

And I miss the trademark Deus Ex blue! Now we have to get used to yellow. Hmmm.

BlazeL
12th Jun 2009, 01:11
One thing is for sure. I wasn't expecting it to had Steampunk or "Medieval fantasy" references. :rasp:

Me neither, and i don't like them. But probably this is a warm-up project for thiaf.

dixieflatline
12th Jun 2009, 01:23
Found another similarity between DX3 and GiTS

http://internetservices.readingeagle.com/blog/moviehouse/ghost%20innocence.jpg

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2009/04/shanghai2_01.jpg

I think this one is defintely a stretch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears you are saying the use of pillars shows some sort of influence. I dunno about that dude.

Perhaps the artists took some inspiration from Innocence, but in my mind , and from the image comparisons shown so far, I'm cool with it. Considering that Ghost in the Shell is one of the foremost and influential visual examples of the modern cyberpunk style, and that the artists haven't COPIED anything -- at most they are just sort of working what is has already been done, (which pretty much all artists do) -- I think overall, everything is copacetic in my books.

Let's get back to talking about our collective fears that the game will be turned into a cyberpunk styled Gears of War clone with tacked on, after-thought RPG elements again :)

Yargo
12th Jun 2009, 02:37
I enjoyed the GitS movies a lot and seeing how DX3 uses similar themes (mechanical Augs, distopian future, etc.) I personally don't see a problem using and drawing inspiration from GitS' concepts.

Back to Gamer004's argument I don't think you can truly judge the design team until they've shown more of their concepts and attributes in full form (ie. in-game stuff) :D

KSingh77
12th Jun 2009, 03:05
So it is true all developers are fans of Ghost in the Shells.

I hope they don't screw this up,hell hardly any of them never worked on RPGs.Why not just rehire some members of the old team that worked on the old Deus Ex.

BlazeL
12th Jun 2009, 03:24
Why not just rehire some members of the old team that worked on the old Deus Ex.

:hmm:
Because they are working on other titles for other companies...

Besides, it wouldn't guarantee anything, remember: they were who messed up IW.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2009, 08:05
Sorry, substantialy i can't. I don't agree completely with that statement neither. Actually i have never said that his apartment looks more futuristic. On that picture, it is not really. What i said was that the overall graphical style of the game is futuristic.
I dont know if this picture shows his apartment or not. If so, that tank on the left wall looks a bit out of place and gives a bit strange (retro-futuristic?) feeling. And oh yes, i got something now on the cited image too, there are at least two things that gives it the same strange feel. The hexagonal lighting in the ceiling, and yes, the plasma screen. They are just strange in the overall renaissance environment and it sets off their futuristicness... (Addition to the television: It looks futuristic because in DX, we usually see 'normal TVs and i can't recall any of the big plasma TVs with the constant news broadcast from any of the apartments. But as i said, it's ok if Jensen is rich.) Plus the floor is way too shiny and the reflections on it are too sharp, like if it would be glass.

So after this, hopefully you can also return to the main argument, which is: why is the DX3 art style problematic...


Glad to hear that because neither can I, thank you. :thumb:
Umm I think you are confused. I never said you did say it was too futuristic - it was thommy who said that and to whom I have asked for further clarification. I was just trying to condense our discussion (thommys and mine, not yours and mine) so you could see where I am coming from.

Thank you, however, for offering up your own reasons why you think Adam's apartment might be too futuristic. I disagree about the hexagonal lighting and the screen, they don't look too futuristic or out of place at all. I think the floor is just polished, so not glass.

I do agree that we didn't really see many plasma/projection screens in DX1 households but obviously we have to allow for the fact that the devs in 2000 may not have considered the commercial viability and widespread use of plasma screens OR perhaps they were deliberately omitted (future energy conservation policy, perhaps?). Either way, you can't judge devs today on previous devs work - we have to allow for artistic freedom, not to mention the obvious utilisation of new technology. Consider the wind turbines in the city streets (see image thread), for example. You don't see them in DX1 either.

Yes, we should return to the main discussion (not argument), but if you don't mind, I intend to continue to patiently wait for thommys reply and list of items in Adam's apartment that he thinks are too futuristic.


So, back to the main discussion, ie. the comparison between DX3 and GITS. I have already stated my opinion earlier in this thread. The latest image from KSingh doesn't suggest to me any similarity... in fact, it is so NOT similar that I hope some people here are not just going to post up random images for the sake of it now. :(

Sabretooth1
12th Jun 2009, 08:17
omg look I found a new art resemblance between GitS and Deus Ex 3 check it out guise:

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/10/06/ghost_in_the_shell_2_051006021922499_wideweb__375x500.jpg
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2130/811617-adam_jensen_deus3_large.jpg

they're both looking in the same direction !!!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2009, 09:52
omg look I found a new art resemblance between GitS and Deus Ex 3 check it out guise:

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/10/06/ghost_in_the_shell_2_051006021922499_wideweb__375x500.jpg
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2130/811617-adam_jensen_deus3_large.jpg

they're both looking in the same direction !!!



LMAO Too funny! :thumb:

Trouble is, some people actually will see a similarity there. That's what worries me, hehe. :D

FrankCSIS
12th Jun 2009, 22:21
I'm trained in facial recognition and analysis, and I have to say, they're frighteningly similar!

Either that girl's a drag, or Adam's true identity used to be Eve.

Holy sh"t that's it, that's the conspiracy! Sabretooth, you're a genius.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2009, 23:19
Hehe, you're the genius for figuring it out. :D

PlasmaSnake101
12th Jun 2009, 23:24
The flower and the hexigon are roughly in the same area...

Yargo
12th Jun 2009, 23:58
The flower and the hexigon are roughly in the same area...

Very Roughly :D

dixieflatline
12th Jun 2009, 23:59
Haha :) You're a funny guy, SabreTooth.

KSingh77
13th Jun 2009, 01:33
omg look I found a new art resemblance between GitS and Deus Ex 3 check it out guise:

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/10/06/ghost_in_the_shell_2_051006021922499_wideweb__375x500.jpg
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/2130/811617-adam_jensen_deus3_large.jpg

they're both looking in the same direction !!!


That girl has no cigarette.

Laokin
13th Jun 2009, 02:32
Thanks, van_Hellsing, I do appreciate the time you've put into finding those images. :)
I think I initially misunderstood the meaning of 'look'. I can see now you are comparing general concept and specific environments/images, rather than that of a particular "art style". My bad. At the time, I couldn't understand why you were comparing DX3 art direction to anything anime/manga.

They are interesting comparisons, I have to say. Whilst I do see similarities, I don't think it is an unusual situation. Even the GITS movie screenshots were compared to that of the Matrix movie and plenty of similarities were found. Nevertheless, these two movies are both masterpieces in their own right. So, it could be that DX3 will be a masterpiece in its own right. You know I've always hoped for that. :p

A cyborg fetus/body and suggestion of 'birth' has been done way back in early fiction writing. Rossum's robots were all biological creations and his book was written in the early 1900s, I believe. I see some yellow and black screens. Same colour, I agree, but I don't find that such a shocking coincidence. I guess all sewers are going to look pretty much the same, though the DX3 sewer looks strangely more appealing, hehe. As for Batou & Barrett with their guns, I think such a view from the gun-barrel and character isn't unusual. Even Lara likes to do that. Dukey's (still forever) is another that comes to mind. Finally, we have an apartment with windows on the same wall. This is probably the least "convincing" like-for-like, for me anyway. I mean, isn't it inevitable for a side-built apartment? We are going to see walls to interior section and windows on the exterior wall. Either side, it doesn't matter. Other than that, its a totally different residence. Just another apartment really.

This is fun though. :D Did you say there were more to come? Looking forward to the next lot of pictures. :thumb:


You miss the point. I'm not going to address them all since your going to come back with just another wannabe witty reply about how ignorant you really are.

Take the apartment for example.... nobody said it was the same apartment. Yes, it looks like a totally different apartment.... but if that apartment was in GITS it would look canon to the series. Why? because the artistic direction is almost a 100% match.... It just looks newer. Those apartments look like the exist in the same world... except they belong to two totally different "Intellectual Properties".


My point is done. And I win.

serrath
13th Jun 2009, 04:58
You miss the point. I'm not going to address them all since your going to come back with just another wannabe witty reply about how ignorant you really are.

Take the apartment for example.... nobody said it was the same apartment. Yes, it looks like a totally different apartment.... but if that apartment was in GITS it would look canon to the series. Why? because the artistic direction is almost a 100% match.... It just looks newer. Those apartments look like the exist in the same world... except they belong to two totally different "Intellectual Properties".


My point is done. And I win.

Ahh, but you just lost the game!

LatwPIAT
13th Jun 2009, 06:49
You miss the point. I'm not going to address them all since your going to come back with just another wannabe witty reply about how ignorant you really are.

Take the apartment for example.... nobody said it was the same apartment. Yes, it looks like a totally different apartment.... but if that apartment was in GITS it would look canon to the series. Why? because the artistic direction is almost a 100% match.... It just looks newer. Those apartments look like the exist in the same world... except they belong to two totally different "Intellectual Properties".


My point is done. And I win.
Personal insults and arrogance... Not to mention faulty arguments. What has these forums come to?

Sabretooth1
13th Jun 2009, 12:21
Take the apartment for example.... nobody said it was the same apartment. Yes, it looks like a totally different apartment.... but if that apartment was in GITS it would look canon to the series. Why? because the artistic direction is almost a 100% match.... It just looks newer. Those apartments look like the exist in the same world... except they belong to two totally different "Intellectual Properties".


My point is done. And I win.

To be fair they aren't very far in setting either, both discuss hard sci-fi topics such as transhumanism, artificial intelligence, experimentation etc. : both include body augmentation (the Batou/Barrett screens, for eg.), and both are set in a well-researched futuristic environment. I'd expect enough similarity between the two to make some assets interchangeable.

Don't mind me though, you've already won.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2009, 12:31
Laokin, go back and read everyone's comments, not just mine. In case you haven't noticed, others here are pretty much discussing the same thing, viewing the images and looking for similarities, or non-similarities, as the case may be... not just me. We've even enjoyed some humour too. So why single me out and call me ignorant because I express my opinions like everyone else?
As others have already noticed, this appears to be just a personal insult directed toward me. I wonder why, hmmm.

But let's clear this up, I never said that anyone declared it was the SAME apartment! If anything, you are saying that with your "almost 100% match" declaration. There's your faulty argument, right there.

I don't agree that the artistic direction is an almost a 100% match. Like I said, the only element that comes close to "100%" is the fact that the apartment layout (ie. walls and windows) are the same. That's it. Other than that, it is totally DIFFERENT, in every aspect. If you wish to consider it canon to GITS, that is up to you of course. I don't share your point of view on this because, in that case, just about all in-game apartments set in the future will "look like they exist in the same world".



That girl has no cigarette.

LOL, if she had a cigarette - I might have been convinced!!! ;) :D

PenguinsFriend
13th Jun 2009, 16:49
You miss the point. I'm not going to address them all since your going to come back with just another wannabe witty reply about how ignorant you really are.

"Wannabe witty?" She sounds smarter than you, you just sound like some douche as*hole. :thud:

serrath
13th Jun 2009, 17:33
http://i.media-imdb.com/images/youwon.gif
Now go home and leave us alone.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2009, 17:41
Thanks guys, but back on topic now please. :)

KSingh77
13th Jun 2009, 19:39
Yes back on topic

Anyway that DX3 banner looks awsome,I would love to have that hanged up in my room.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2009, 20:04
It is awesome, isn't it!?! :cool:

I asked first though. It's mine, all MINE! Mwaahahhahaa! :naughty: :D

Pyronox
13th Jun 2009, 20:43
@OP:Anime influence? Are you retarded? Making a sequel to a game world that was most likely ripped off by those animes in the first place.

And please these photos are nothing like each other.

INFLUENCE is not INFLUENCE if the people that make the game likely haven't SEEN stuff like that anime crap in the first place.

Try and find a game, show, movie, w/e that does a New Renaissance theme.

There are some games where you can protest the direction, but this is a completely new and unique setting, you douchebag.

Stop ******* exaggerating everything, omitting details that would make you wrong, or changing the final signification of a detail to serve your purposes.

gamer0004
13th Jun 2009, 20:46
@OP:Anime influence? Are you retarded? Making a sequel to a game world that was most likely ripped off by those animes in the first place.

And please these photos are nothing like each other.

INFLUENCE is not INFLUENCE if the people that make the game likely haven't SEEN stuff like that anime crap in the first place.

Try and find a game, show, movie, w/e that does a New Renaissance theme.

There are some games where you can protest the direction, but this is a completely new and unique setting, you douchebag.

Stop ******* exaggerating everything, omitting details that would make you wrong, or changing the final signification of a detail to serve your purposes.

You're a funny little man, aren't you?

Pyronox
13th Jun 2009, 20:57
You're a funny little man, aren't you?

Do I really have to nitpick at every little word of your posts just to show how full of **** you are?

No, I don't. You did it for me.

You fail, good day sir.

SageSavage
13th Jun 2009, 21:12
No need for name-calling though... :hmm:

Pyronox
13th Jun 2009, 21:30
No need for name-calling though... :hmm:

Technically it's not a name... Although I know it's not really necessary at this point, I just felt I had to make him taste my internet justice.

You know how it goes...

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2009, 22:04
Being called "ignorant", "a funny little man", "an as*hole" etc are altogether unnecessary. :(
So let's stop this downward spiral and return to topic, otherwise the thread will have to get closed.
Thank you.

ArcR
14th Jun 2009, 00:19
Outstanding. Ghost in the Shell is an excellent source of inspiration. I hope those screenshots are in game. My concerns are whether or not we have freedom of choice in actions and dialogue and will it change our immediate results and storyline. Also will it be as dark and conspiratorial with twists and turns like the original (I hope even more so). If it's always as bright as those screen shots then I'll have to pick up JCD's shades.

serrath
14th Jun 2009, 01:34
I'm not sure Ghost in the Shell was the inspiration here (but if you've read above, we'll keep that debate quiet), but there are definitely some similar influences on both styles.

As for your comment about the dark and conspiratorial with twists like the original... Well it wouldn't be DX without that, would it? That'd be like JC without sunglasses. (e.g. Paul; wussy, unable to stand on its own right)

The freedom of choice in actions and dialog I would expect to act much like the original Deus Ex: it might influence "who you are" (e.g. are you seen as vicious or empathetic, a tank or a commando), or what items you get (GEP Gun vs. rifle vs. tranq dart minicrossbow), but in order to have a large, well-developed plot you can't make the game branch at every decision.

ArcR
14th Jun 2009, 02:54
I'm not sure Ghost in the Shell was the inspiration here (but if you've read above, we'll keep that debate quiet), but there are definitely some similar influences on both styles.

Aww shucks... thermoptic camo, cybernetics, and existentialism... ok ok I'll keep quite. Can I bring up blade runner? It's not like Deus Ex had a film noir vibe and a guy in a trench coat running around chasing after a conspiracy involving robots and... I give up. :D

I very much agree with your last point. One cool thing about the original DX is that conversations had a direct effect on your approach. The fact that you could squeeze intel or earn it from someone etc etc. I don't remember much of that in the second.

But yeah.... I can't even imagine the amount of work they would have to put in if the plot actually split. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for some SOLID sub plots that bring the characters to life and immerses you into atmosphere.

teknikal-vision
14th Jun 2009, 09:11
When I look at Deus Ex 3 I don't wanna think Ghost in the Shell.
I wanna look at Deus Ex 3 and see the brilliant style and aesthetics of Deus Ex brought to their full visual fruition!

Deus Ex already had an aesthetic style (a brilliant one!) , I don't see the need to change it.

ArcR
14th Jun 2009, 19:04
tek-vision I agree. The only thing that we have to reconcile here are the capabilities of modern graphics vs what was available 10 years ago. How do you keep the character alive? How do you make the leap from polygons to polished and realistic without betraying the style. I get the impression that they are trying to showcase how far they've come while losing the flavor.

You are the artist (I think you Bale/JCD work is great!) so maybe you can describe the aesthetics (something i really don't understand) of Deus Ex.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt because all we have seen are enclose areas... halls, rooms, and labs which are well lit in the original. The image of the sewer is troubling though. Show us an urban night shot!

KSingh77
15th Jun 2009, 03:18
Ahem:

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6440/robob.png
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9923/deusex3cop.jpg

Jerion
15th Jun 2009, 03:24
...So?

Two suits of full body armor. And one is designed to use arm augmentations. I could grab pictures of a dozen other suits of futuristic armor similar to those.

KSingh77
15th Jun 2009, 03:27
Yeah

Well basically both are Detroit cops

Ashpolt
15th Jun 2009, 08:10
Well basically both are Detroit cops

This just in: one of the factions in Deus Ex 3 is OCP. Confirmed!

Now that's a game I would buy.

dixieflatline
15th Jun 2009, 22:06
^^^^ I would buy 5 copies if a fictional OCP was in the game. EM should totally tie in Deus Ex 3 with the new Robocop movie, they are probably coming out around the same time :)

KSingh77
15th Jun 2009, 22:50
I thought it was a great homage to Robocop in my opinion.

Blade_hunter
15th Jun 2009, 23:03
I always thought the Giant robot in DX was inspirated by ED 209, also they have similar weapons
chainguns and rockets ...

FrankCSIS
15th Jun 2009, 23:22
If a corporate hawk like D"ck and an insanely awesome villain like Clarence are in it, it would redeem most anything.

MOST ANYTHING

Igoe
16th Jun 2009, 08:21
There is always a peak before a fall, and there are always signs of affluence before poverty.

DX3's timeline comes across as the perfect time for a DX game to me. It's before all of the sht has hit the fan, and society has reached its height of decadence. California is still firmly attached to the US, AIDS hasn't ravaged half of India, and nano-viruses are a pipe dream. What do the people have to worry about? Nothing really. That's why they make all kinds of rabble about the mech-augs.

Look at society today, sure the economies of most countries aren't doing well, but gameshow viewers are at an all-time high and the market for computer-related goods is on the up and up (yes, look at it, it's actually going up)

At the time DX3 occurs we should see MASSIVE advertising and home electronic booms. I would fully expect the metropolises of the future to have large LCD screens broadcasting ads on monumental scales.

Now where have I seen large crowded urban architecture accented with context-sensitive advertising and mass media infiltration....oh yeah, JAPAN.

Ghost in the Shell isn't just an influence on the DX lineage, it's NECESSARY. Dark brooding gritty city landscape with cybernetic highly mechanical stylized combat units? Sound familiar? If DX3 doesn't draw from the same artistic pool that GitS does, then they have FAILED to reproduce the environment they seek to clone.

Ok, ok, so you think I'm talking crap, that's fine. Let me examine Max Payne 3 for reference. Max Payne 1 was a film-noir styled shoot-em-up. No one denies that. MP2 was a film-noir romance that took the elements from MP1 and re-envisioned them as an older cinemesque love story. Now look at Payne 3. They have radically changed the character and taken him out of the setting that defined the previous games. Some people see this change as bad, some people see this change as a logical progression. How do you feel?

Would you rather they totally reinvent DX as they see fit, or build upon it in a redesigned universe?

EM has obviously chosen to do a little of both, but artistically they are sticking to the atmosphere that set DX apart from all other games in its time. Ghost in the Shell just happens to mimic this same design and did a (in my opinion) very good job of it. I think most fans should be flattered DX3 is mature enough to accept that it's design has all ready been duplicated and should be happy they are taking advice from the people that did it right.

As Daria's sister once said, You can't judge a person on how their parents act. Of course we can't say that DX3 will suck because GitS was this, or was that, but it's hard not to think back on GitS without remembering the atmosphere and setting it created for itself and in the end isn't that the same reason we all love the original Deus Ex so much?

If DX3 borrows on the themes GitS is known for, we should all be happy in knowing at least the developers have a solid grounding in what it means to have a unique atmosphere. In a world where 'dark' and 'gritty' are buzzwords in the gaming community, wouldn't it be nice if someone could look at a game screenshot and INSTANTLY recognize the style as "DX3" just like trench coats and sunglasses make DX1 iconic?

Shouldn't we be happy that DX3 is choosing to add flair to their design as well as mainstream appeal and that the flair is firmly planted in at least 2 successful franchises? (DX and GitS)

Halo is just Halo. You don't look back on Halo and remember the style or the flair, it's just a mainstream game. Wouldn't it be nice to have the masses look back on DX3 and remember it as you did GitS, for it's design and atmosphere and NOT it's action sequences and contemporary blood and gore?

Ashpolt
16th Jun 2009, 12:49
Now look at Payne 3. They have radically changed the character and taken him out of the setting that defined the previous games. Some people see this change as bad, some people see this change as a logical progression.

How on earth could what they've done with Max Payne 3 be seen as a logical progression? I'm not trolling here, please explain it to me. As far as I'm concerned, the noir feel is the defining feature of the first two games, so removing that is removing what made them "Max Payne" in the first place. I'll stick by what I said in the "other games" thread: what they're doing to Max Payne is equivalent to turning Deus Ex into FarCry.


Would you rather they totally reinvent DX as they see fit, or build upon it in a redesigned universe?

I'd rather they did neither, and built upon the universe that's already been established, like a good sequel / prequel should do. Your point about boom then bust is fair enough, but high technology doesn't just disappear, even during times of economic crisis. If the world of Deus Ex 3 looks as it does in the art / screens we've seen, that technology would still be around in the time of Deus Ex - sure, it might be a bit run down, a bit worse for wear, but it would still exist, and there would be at least remnants of it everywhere.

gamer0004
16th Jun 2009, 12:56
1. If there really was a peak then what are those "highly mechanical stylized combat units" for?
2. Why would the police be augmented, if those augs cost millions of dollars per officer and can actually be a danger for other government officials?
3. I don't care if DX3 and GitS share certian themes (even DX did so), but the art style shouldn't resemble each other. GitS looks more like some kind of fantasy setting rather than our world (in fact, is it actually supposed to take place here on Earth?).


Would you rather they totally reinvent DX as they see fit, or build upon it in a redesigned universe?

Neither. I want DX3 to elaborate on DX, so to say. I just want it to be the predecessor of DX. You know, like what a prequel is supposed to be. I don't want them to reinvent or redesign anything. They should stay true to the original.

teknikal-vision
16th Jun 2009, 14:24
Ghost in the Shell isn't just an influence on the DX lineage, it's NECESSARY. Dark brooding gritty city landscape with cybernetic highly mechanical stylized combat units? Sound familiar? If DX3 doesn't draw from the same artistic pool that GitS does, then they have FAILED to reproduce the environment they seek to clone.

Now look at Payne 3. They have radically changed the character and taken him out of the setting that defined the previous games. Some people see this change as bad, some people see this change as a logical progression. How do you feel?

Ok, I love DX3's style for what it is, don't get me wrong. As soon as they release an artbook with the concept art I'm buying it! I'm just sad to see so much of the style of the original lost, because it had potential to be something amazing.

And there's nothing wrong with EM drawing from the same inspirational pool as GiTS. I would just expect them to interpret that inspiration differently to how GiTS interpreted it. And if GiTS did directly inspire DX3's visual style I'm thinking... shouldn't Deus Ex itself inspire DX3's aesthetics before and more than GiTS?

About Max Payne 3? I have no problem with the new location. Any location can be done in a noir style. So they have no need to drop the style. The story seems cool; feels like Man on Fire. And my inital impressions for Max Payne's new look? Well, I instantly got Sam Fisher vibes. Sam and Max (hahaha! :lol:) should attend the same post-profession rehab together.


You are the artist (I think you Bale/JCD work is great!) so maybe you can describe the aesthetics (something i really don't understand) of Deus Ex.

Oh man... put me on the spot!

Well to make it simple... Children of Men is set in 2027. Deus Ex 3 is set the same year.

The movie Children of Men is more Deus Ex to me than Deus Ex 3. More gritty reality and less fanciful stylisation. The world and people looks the same as today, but the technology has improved and is more apparent. I always saw DX's visuals as a highly plausible look for the future. Spector summed up DX as 'real-world role playing' after all.

I think the number one question to ask when it comes to conceptualising the look for DX is... how different will the world look in 20 years time, honestly? I can't imagine anyone adopting heavily renaissance-inspired fashion except for catwalk models. You wont find the renaissance influencing the design of the military's uniforms that's a given. Bots should look industrial; function considered before form. Although I'd expect any Japanese built robot in a DX reality to be heavily designed with minimalism and clean forms and lines in mind, just like the wacky robots their building now.

But there's a significant part of DX that owes itself to the 90's when things were done for the sake of looking cool.
For example... Gunther and Anna's mech augs look cool; all shiny and chrome like the terminator.

But that's not to say the choice to design them that way was not without deeper intentions. The seams between flesh and metal are intentionally made hideous to emphasise how much humanity was stripped from heavily mechanically augmented agents. Comparatively Gunther and Anna had to look extremely inhuman alongside Paul and JC. Nano-augmentations were being developed to fix that problem.

Now, DX 3 from what we've seen has opted to base much of the mech augs on present-day prosthetic limbs which in my opinion are visually not that cool, but logically yes they probably would look more like that (unless you go by the same logic, in which their function (as part of military/armed developments) would probably be considered first, and no they wont be designed to look appealing like an ipod)

Actually, the prosthetic-limb inspirations of Deus Ex 3 seems to undermine the important factor of the loss of humanity. Some of the DX3 mech augs are trying to imitate the appearance of a normal human as much as they can. In DX the design of the mech augs never bothered imitating the appearance of a normal human. Function first; form second.

Okay... I better stop. Should've just explained myself by drawing. XD

Oh one more thing. The bland reality that saturated most of Deus Ex's visuals made all the fancy sci-fi technological elements that much more believable. The fantastical becomes a lot more tangible when placed within the dullness of reality. That's exactly what Guillermo Del Toro did for much of Pan's Labyrinth.

PenguinsFriend
16th Jun 2009, 14:43
^ Beautiful post! :thumb:

teknikal-vision
16th Jun 2009, 14:56
^ Beautiful post! :thumb:

Thanks! Took a load out of me! PHEW!

PenguinsFriend
16th Jun 2009, 15:08
Thanks! Took a load out of me! PHEW!

Well it was worth it - I loved reading it!

Sabretooth1
16th Jun 2009, 15:39
Actually, the prosthetic-limb inspirations of Deus Ex 3 seems to undermine the important factor of the loss of humanity. Some of the DX3 mech augs are trying to imitate the appearance of a normal human as much as they can. In DX the design of the mech augs never bothered imitating the appearance of a normal human. Function first; form second.

To be honest, I find the augs that resemble human hands and stuff creepier (I find prosthetics creepy in general, even if they do cool stuff).

I think there will be some distinction in aug look, if you look at the augs for the Detroit cop concept art, his arm is shiny steel and looks smaller than a human arm. I'd guess market augs were more cosmetic to not alienate their users or so. It fits in with the idea that people want added functionality without necessarily looking like freaks. So I guess there is some sort of a divide between military and commercial augmentations or something.

lumpi
16th Jun 2009, 17:05
GitS looks more like some kind of fantasy setting rather than our world (in fact, is it actually supposed to take place here on Earth?).

You can argue whether technological progression on GitS levels makes sense for a game set 25 years before a much less futuristic looking one... but GitS isn't fantasy. It's what can happen in a society that isn't afraid of machinery dictating our every life (Japan today, maybe us later).

I agree with the timeline argument, though. There are games that can get away with just doing hyper-futuristic sceneries for fun... but part of DX' appeal is that it always stayed so attached to real-world logic for the science fiction bits. That seems to be lost completely with a lot of the new concept work.

Irate_Iguana
16th Jun 2009, 17:15
So I guess there is some sort of a divide between military and commercial augmentations or something.

Take a look at the concept art for the Barrett character. His arm has a camo pattern. For the rest it looks very similar the the other concept art that we have seen for the augs. Because of the lack of detail on the DX models it is hard to see how much machinery should be visible. If they made the augs they have in DX3 silver or chrome instead of skin tone it would make them appear to be much more like the ones in the previous games.

dixieflatline
16th Jun 2009, 21:11
Some great posts... just going on what teknikal said, I also thing they shouldn't make things too radically different. That seems to often be a problem with science fiction: so many games and movies set 20 years in the future look like they should actually be set 80 years in the future.

In 20 years there will of course be some crazy tech out there but cities will not look radically different then they looked today. I don't really remember what cities looked like in 1989 but I feel pretty sure saying most of them don't look all that much incredibly different than they do now, in 2009 -- they just look bigger.

serrath
16th Jun 2009, 21:22
Aww shucks... thermoptic camo, cybernetics, and existentialism... ok ok I'll keep quite [sic].

Now I don't know "GitS" personally, but I'm finding it highly unlikely that a cartoon correctly portrayed existentialism.

lumpi
16th Jun 2009, 21:27
Now I don't know "GitS" personally, but I'm finding it highly unlikely that a cartoon correctly portrayed existentialism.

Now think a second about how the rest of the non-gamer world thinks of "videogames for the kids" and how "Deus Ex can't possibly portray important social and political issues in a convincing way". :D The Japanese do a lot more with "cartoons" than us Westeners. GitS is as existential as it gets. Some argue too much...


If they made the augs they have in DX3 silver or chrome instead of skin tone it would make them appear to be much more like the ones in the previous games.

BTW, That reminds me of how much the huge, ugly, blue(?!?) augmentations always bothered me. Even if it's cheap, reasonable or chic to get them... would you want to look like Anna Navarra or Gunther?

As I see it, augs aren't just used by hyper-dedicated military personnel, but random people on the streets have it. That always struck me as strange. Mainly for the 3 reasons mentioned above: Cost, purpose and... looks. I'm not sure if I want to see EM solving this by just covering the "looks" part with more natural materials. I'd rather see crome arms and the 2 remaining issues (price and purpose) being explained as well.

Eww: http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/5/4470/thumb_620x2000/53392.jpg

imported_van_HellSing
16th Jun 2009, 21:34
What's with "a cartoon"? It's just the medium. GitS is not some saturday morning kids show - it's a serious movie which happens to be animated instead of live-action.

On an interesting note, Mamoru Oshii's live action films in the Kerberos Saga, though just as philosophical, are much more (deliberately) wacky than his completely humorless animated GitS movies.

@lumpi - eww indeed, it's the HDTP model.

Pyronox
16th Jun 2009, 21:50
You know, there's creativity and then there's creativity.

To be perfectly honest, when I first saw DX3 concept art and screen shots, I instantly fell in love with it because having read the time lines in the DX universe, additional explanations, and almost every single additional piece of info (in-game and otherwise), I formulated in my head what a realistic progression of the world would be like in those circumstances. Basically, I saw it and thought: "Yeah, that's pretty similar to how I'd do it given the opportunity." And that's when you know something's going to be good.

So can everyone stop speculating on crap and actually ask the devs weather it was mostly inspiration or creativity?

Irate_Iguana
16th Jun 2009, 22:24
I'm not sure if I want to see EM solving this by just covering the "looks" part with more natural materials. I'd rather see crome arms and the 2 remaining issues (price and purpose) being explained as well.

Agreed. A large part of Deus Ex was the replacement of the obvious mech-augs with the almost covert nano-augs. A lot of questions were asked about what the mech-augs gave up in exchange for power. Why they did it. Even the conversation between the NSF soldiers in the Statue talks about this:

Terrorist 1: That's the difference right there. Just take a look at him.
Terrorist 2: Bad?
Terrorist 1: They cut off his arm, replaced half of his face.
Terrorist 2: Hermann, right? He's a good soldier. Killed three of our men.
Terrorist 1: They'd have replaced his whole body if it would've improved performance. If that's how you judge a man -- by performance -- then eventually it's not about people but upgrades, versions, functionality...
Terrorist 2: All I know is we could use a few mechs for ops like this.
Terrorist 1: Soon as we buy into the cult of the machine we're just like them.
Terrorist 2: Rhetoric, always more rhetoric.

Not everyone saw the mech-augs as something worthwhile. I'd really like them to explore this more. Even let us feel the consequences. Sure it might be nice to mech-up, but what do you loose in the process and do you even care?



So can everyone stop speculating on crap and actually ask the devs weather it was mostly inspiration or creativity?

You must be new here. That is not how we roll. First of all, we don't get new information. You ask a question here in the forums. If you are very very lucky René will post in the thread. If you are jackpot-lucky he will answer your question with a vagueness that would make the sphinx jealous. The luck needed to actually get Dev-info can not be put into words.

Pyronox
16th Jun 2009, 23:12
I got 2 posts from Rene already akshully.

FrankCSIS
16th Jun 2009, 23:56
So can everyone stop speculating on crap and actually ask the devs weather it was mostly inspiration or creativity?

Speculation is the bread and butter of this board. Without it, there would be nothing to discuss. Do not shun upon it. What you consider crap is the only thing keeping this place alive.

Jerion
16th Jun 2009, 23:57
Speculation is the bread and butter of this board. Without it, there would be nothing to discuss. Do not shun upon it. What you consider crap is the only thing keeping this place alive.

Truer words were never said.

serrath
17th Jun 2009, 03:46
Truer words were never said.

Nah, it's really about the tiiiiny little details that slip through the cracks.

For you NDA-sealed-inside-scoop guys truer words were never said. For us bottom-feeders it's all about the little slips.

Sabretooth1
17th Jun 2009, 05:20
If you are jackpot-lucky he will answer your question with a vagueness that would make the sphinx jealous.


What walks on four legs in the morning, two at mid-day, and on three legs before evening?

Me. My legs are augmented. :cool:

teknikal-vision
17th Jun 2009, 05:46
I'll write up a more detailed response to everyones thoughts later.

In the meantime. I was shuffling about on Deus Ex Archives (http://deusex-archives.freehost.pl/) and found something that pretty much sums up everything I love about the aesthetics of the original Deus Ex.

(it's from 1999 and as you can see the character designs hadn't yet been finalised)
http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs48/f/2009/167/8/3/1999_OldSchoolDeusEx_by_teknikal_vision.jpg

But dammit it's so cool could I could cry. :D

Blade_hunter
17th Jun 2009, 08:23
The girl should be anna navarre :D
Funny that hair brush

Sabretooth1
17th Jun 2009, 08:53
Dammit JC looks terrible with normal eyes and no sunglasses. :D

SageSavage
17th Jun 2009, 10:15
JC looks a bit too much like 70's-Travolta and needs his shades back but I actually like Navarre's Betty Page-look better then the one that made it into the game.

Spyhopping
17th Jun 2009, 10:21
I always loved this pic with it's ribbed skyscrapers. Was never too sure about the big Buddha in the sky though. I guess it's a reference to it being multicultural- specifically Hong Kong and Chows apartment.


JC looks a bit too much like 70's-Travolta and needs his shades back but I actually like Navarre's Betty Page-look better then the one that made it into the game.

Hah, yes he's got some serous sideburns going on :D. I liked Anna's final design though, she was more cold and scary that way.

SageSavage
17th Jun 2009, 10:31
She still looks (and more importantly: sounds) cold but more sexy which makes her all the more dangerous in my eyes.

IOOI
17th Jun 2009, 11:55
@ teknikal-vision

I have good vibes about this poster.
It feels like Matrix (trenchcoat, green characters, MiB) meets The Replacement Killers (action posture, the overall orange tone mixed with green windows) meets Blade Runner (multicutural allusion with the Statue of Liberty and the Buddha) meets GitS (cyborgs). Its a great mesh. Oh yes, and I like those glowing red eyes (and lights)... *good vibes* :cool:
If that is Anna Navarre I could imagine her also with an extended pony tail.
This only poster if properly croped could be a source for multiple posters.

Thanks teknikal-vision. I'm refreshed :cool:

imported_van_HellSing
17th Jun 2009, 12:20
The Buddha relates to the Deus Ex concept, I think - JC can become sort of a godlike being ("technobuddha" - expression from an article on the anime Akira) when he merges with Helios.

Personally, I find there's an interesting similarity between this pic and one of the scenes in the movie Casshern (http://mandiapple.com/snowblood/casshern.htm): the protagonist is fighting one of the (tragic) villains in an asian village, with a similar ethereal statue looming in the sky above, implied to be the titular Casshern, who in the movie is a deity watching over the opressed. Or something. The movie is a glorious mess (still quite good if you like epic imagery). To top this off, this scene precedes a literal Deus Ex Machina moment, when the protagonist gets inexplicably teleported just to where he needs to be, in an act of apparent divine intervention. Did I mention the movie is a mess?

Note: unlike the GitS inspiration, I'm not implying any direct connection (the movie was made in 2005, but is a reimagining of an older anime franchise I'm not familiar with honestly), these are just my random thoughts.

SageSavage
17th Jun 2009, 12:52
The movie is a glorious mess (still quite good if you like epic imagery).
That describes it appropriately, IMO.

Blade_hunter
17th Jun 2009, 13:02
There is some terminator inspiration in Deus Ex just see JC Denton and Schwarzenegger from the first terminator
http://hermiene.net/img/heroes/jcd.png
http://www.dvdrama.com/imagescrit2/t/e/r/terminator_br_imp_haut.jpg

LatwPIAT
17th Jun 2009, 19:55
3. I don't care if DX3 and GitS share certian themes (even DX did so), but the art style shouldn't resemble each other. GitS looks more like some kind of fantasy setting rather than our world (in fact, is it actually supposed to take place here on Earth?).
It looks like a fantasy setting rather than our own world? You're on a Deus Ex 3 forum arguing that Deus Ex 3 shouldn't look like GitS because GitS looks like a fantasy setting when everything that makes GitS a "fantasy setting" are THE EXACT SAME ELEMENTS THAT MAKES DEUS EX NON-CONTEMPORARY!


Now where have I seen large crowded urban architecture accented with context-sensitive advertising and mass media infiltration....oh yeah, JAPAN.

Ghost in the Shell isn't just an influence on the DX lineage, it's NECESSARY. Dark brooding gritty city landscape with cybernetic highly mechanical stylized combat units? Sound familiar? If DX3 doesn't draw from the same artistic pool that GitS does, then they have FAILED to reproduce the environment they seek to clone.
I can't find my copy of Neuromancer, but Gibson had that wonderful description in one of the earlier chapters about how the neon-lights illuminated the steets at all times, filled with advertisments of all kinds.

BlazeL
17th Jun 2009, 21:25
Great posts above! :thumb: You guys (especially teknikal-vision and dixieflatline) said everything and more i wanted to in a much better way i would be ever able to.

Just some minor additions.

Firstly, i'm glad that blade_hunter came up with the Terminator. There is more similarities between DX and Terminator (mainly the first one) than one might first think. I just watched the first two movies this weekend agian (after more than 8 years), so i had a fresh look on them.
The T100 character just felt really familiar. Its whole behaviour is so similar to JC's. Little talking without emotions, expressionless/serious face, firm motions. Thinking back, controlling JC felt a bit like controlling the terminator. [We even see how it choses dialogue options :)] And those gags with the sunglasses. (The terminator wore sunglasses at night too...) The visuals were pretty close too. Dark, dirty places, just like in DX, unlike any of the concept arts form DX3. I think that this movie had more common with DX than most of its recognised sources of inspiration.

About GitS. In this discussion, we should differentiate between the first movie and Innocence. Their art stiles were quite different. (So different, than even DX is much closer to the first movies visuals than Innocence.) The first was more realistic/cyberpunk, Innocence really leaves some fantasy impression. Let's just mention that in the first part, we didn't see any architectural elements and ornamentics clearly from western art styles. The second is full of them.
And here it goes the renaissance. Deus Ex didn't had a really distinctive look. And particularly not one dominant ornamentical visual style, a clearly recogniseable part of the western culture. It was a mix. Like every other cyberpunk stuff. (And i think that there is no place for renaissance in this cocktail.) It is something else: BioShock. Yes, it was successful and its identical and uniform art style has a great part in its success. It differentiated the game from the crowd. But its philosophy doesn't fit Deus Ex and it isn't a new thing anymore neither, so it shouldn't be recreated.

imported_van_HellSing
17th Jun 2009, 21:44
About the GitS movies: I specifically mentioned Innocence from the start. On the other hand, DX1 has influences from the first movie.

As for the style difference between the movies - this is pretty much standard for Oshii works based on a license. The first movie is usually more faithful to the source, in the second Oshii takes full control and turns the thing into a more personal affair. This happened to the Urusei Yatsura films, the Patlabor films and GitS. The inclusion of western (european) stylings is one of Oshii's trademarks - it can be seen in his Kerberos Saga, the live-action Avalon (filmed in Poland) and, of course, Innocence.

Here's an interesting thing about this: Innocence is explicitly aknowledged by Oshii to be a visual homage to Blade Runner. But while a lot of Blade Runner's unique aesthetic came from flooding the Los Angeles of the future with asian elements, Innocence reverses this by including european elements in an asian setting.

Now, as for the style of DX1: it did have a distinctive look. And the Terminator comparison is spot on. Basically, DX always struck me as eighties/early nineties gritty sci-fi in the vein of The Terminator, or John Carpenter flicks like Escape from New York (gee, wonder why) (http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3932/escapefromnewyork272803.jpg). And it's not just the visuals either - a lot of the music evokes those somewhat corny synth sounds prevalent at that time too.

hem dazon 90
21st Jun 2009, 00:57
did you call splinter cell chaos thereoy a shooter?! splinter cell is the complete opposite of a shooter it is a stealth game and a damn good one at that

Sabretooth1
21st Jun 2009, 06:14
did you call splinter cell chaos thereoy a shooter?! splinter cell is the complete opposite of a shooter it is a stealth game and a damn good one at that
Exactly what I said, I'm actually glad Splinter Cell people are working on Deus Ex 3, throughout the SC series, I just kept thinking how awesome it'd be if Deus Ex had advanced stealth like it, or maybe even just that SC level of polish.

gamer0004
21st Jun 2009, 08:38
I've already mentioned it was a mistake, because I thought only the first splinter cells were stealth games. But I have no idea whether this is one of the first.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
21st Jun 2009, 20:11
So, did we reach a conclusion as to what the 'signs' are? :scratch:

Nathan2000
21st Jun 2009, 20:33
So, did we reach a conclusion as to what the 'signs' are? :scratch:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5931/signso.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/signso.jpg/)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
21st Jun 2009, 21:00
Hehe, those kind of signs...I get it now. This could be fun. :naughty:

Here's one from Jock:

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc159/eternaltreasure/sign2.jpg

:D

BlazeL
22nd Jun 2009, 12:21
So, did we reach a conclusion as to what the 'signs' are? :scratch:

Not literally speaking, my conclusion based on the info we got so far (may be called 'the signs'?) is that this could be a good game on its own, but shouldn't be labelled as Deus Ex.

K^2
22nd Jun 2009, 14:22
Common view point these days. Not unfounded, either. I'm trying to figure out if that's a good reason to be annoyed at publishers. On one hand, they are just exploiting the title. On another, if game is enjoyable, I don't really care what it's called. As for odds of a proper successor to Deus Ex being made, I don't think it'd make a difference one way or another.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
22nd Jun 2009, 14:43
On another, if game is enjoyable, I don't really care what it's called. .

Exactly. :thumb:

I think it should be labeled Deus Ex, if the screenshots and general FAQs are anything to go by. :cool:

Terr
30th Jun 2009, 19:22
I think I get a feeling of from the DX3 screens which I'd define as "opulence". And I think it makes a lot of sense, if you consider DX3 to be set in the "gilded age" before DX1, before you get the Northwest USA trying to secede, etc.


did you call splinter cell chaos thereoy a shooter?! splinter cell is the complete opposite of a shooter it is a stealth game and a damn good one at that

IMO Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory was one of the best stealth games I've played simply because it is possible (if not always easy) to ghost your way through 99.9% of the game... without even knocking enemies out. (Double Agent doesn't deserve to be part of the series.)



But that's not to say the choice to design them that way was not without deeper intentions. The seams between flesh and metal are intentionally made hideous to emphasise how much humanity was stripped from heavily mechanically augmented agents.

Another way to look at it is that Gunther and Anna's augs may have been intentionally designed for a maximum of battle-effectiveness and psychological impact on enemies. Your average prosthetic-arm user, while stronger, still might not require the ability to crush skulls with his bare hands. Or, for that matter, to have a gun integrated into their arm which is self-cleanable (with one arm) and operates underwater and in dirty environments, etc.

InGroove2
30th Jun 2009, 20:09
Not literally speaking, my conclusion based on the info we got so far (may be called 'the signs'?) is that this could be a good game on its own, but shouldn't be labelled as Deus Ex.

why? if it stinks will you not like the original anymore? will it marr your view of the original? why not? if they don't make a DX game and call it something else, then is there some company out there whom you'd hope would make such a title? i'd say the only way to satisfy all you types is for EM to release the rights to,say, the folks who made the Nameless Mod.... a game made with few resources and limitless blood sweat tears and heart... and for nerds like us who are into every stinking detail of the first game and want it to be as hard as possible. you just can't make games too hard these days... for the same reason that bands like pink floyd and the police and the beatles and the beach boys and bob dylan and neil young etc etc etc etc etc could never make it in todays market...

BUT, that wont happen. so we're taking what we can get.... i'd prefer someone try to make another DX game, even if it stinks.. cause otherwise, there is simply NOT another DX game.... and i'd like to see them try, even if it sucks... it's suck, or nothing.... i'd want suck. IW was a disspointment, but i still love DX, so... if this one sucks... we will always have the first.

thomasaquinas
1st Jul 2009, 04:35
for the same reason that bands like pink floyd and the police and the beatles and the beach boys and bob dylan and neil young etc etc etc etc etc could never make it in todays market... It doesn't have to be like this.

gamer0004
1st Jul 2009, 10:01
why? if it stinks will you not like the original anymore? will it marr your view of the original?

Yes, because we HAVE to accept the developers view of 2027 as canon, and I just don't see how it could fit in with DX.

Ashpolt
1st Jul 2009, 11:26
why? if it stinks will you not like the original anymore? will it marr your view of the original?

No, but it will mar the quality of the brand (something we definitely don't need after Invisible War) thus decreasing the chances of a decent sequel in the future.

Even if it's a good game in it's own right, but doesn't stay true to the values of Deus Ex, that's still a bad thing because, again, it sets a precedent for any future sequels. If Deus Ex 3 does, as some people fear, turn out to be a fairly straightforward cover shooter with very light RPG-esque elements, it'll mean that Deus Ex 4 will most likely also be a fairly straightforward cover shooter with very light RPG-esque elements, so meaning we'll never get another true Deus Ex game.

Example: Rainbow Six: Vegas was a great game in its own right, really fun to play, but it didn't stick true to the earlier games in the series, and there is now next to no chance that there will ever be another Rainbow Six game with the depth of the earlier games in the series, because Vegas set a precedent. If, on the other hand, they hadn't called it Rainbow Six, they would still have had a great game, but could also still have made hardcore, tactical shooters under the Rainbow Six brand.

thomasaquinas
1st Jul 2009, 11:53
The fact that a sub-par prequel would not alter the original is no argument in favour of creating a sub-par prequel.

Ninjerk
1st Jul 2009, 19:32
In red so you can READ it, suckas.

InGroove2
1st Jul 2009, 20:14
The fact that a sub-par prequel would not alter the original is no argument in favour of creating a sub-par prequel.

what are you talking about? what argument. it wasn't EVEN an argument FOR a crappy prequel, it was my view on why i'm not afraid and crying about DX3 possibly sucking. not that i'm saying anyone out there is crying. did i make an argument that it's OK for them to make a crappy game? no, i just said that i don't really care. i'm excited to see a prequel, if it sucks, i'll live and still be just as happy with the original as i was... so it's a can't lose situation.

and yea, if the game sucks then ANOTHER sequel will be out of the question, but, in the reality-based world we live in, there's only 1 shot we have at even THIS iteration, and it's being made by EM. so as long as we have to deal with that fact... then there's only so much i can whine about and wish for.

right now, i just want a game with some inspiration and guts of it's own built on the premise, depth and atmosphere of the original. i just, personally, cannot understand gamer0004's point of view on canon.



Yes, because we HAVE to accept the developers view of 2027 as canon, and I just don't see how it could fit in with DX.

so how does that affect how much you love and love to replay DX? so you're saying if there is some sort of inconsistency, which there will be cause there always is, that you will then play DX and say to yourself "there's no way that this MJ-12 lab could look like this when in DX3 they had way more polygons and much more superfulous detail in them... and these computer screens? am i supposed to believe that alex jacobsen would accept keyboard pants and physical computer screens after DX3's holographic screen and no keyboard whatsoever??!? i mean what is it with this game? it sucks! forget DX! i'm DONE!"??

i mean really. i'm not against not liking some of the screen shots and other things baout DX3 that we know thus far... i don't like health regen etc... but jesus... i will accept whatever explanation they give me, cause they are writing it, they have the position of actually making the game happen... suspension of disbelief... THIS is what it's for. i mean, maybe when DX becomes a reality i can get pissed because EM is not representing reality. but it's a game and it's fake and possibly entertaining... DX3, just as the first, fake and possibly entertaining.

i guess there's only so far, IMO, we can go with either praise or negativity (what would be thge proper opposite of the term "praise"? praise or ______.... i can't think of it). we only know so much, we each have such specific and deep ideas about what would make the game great and whether or not EM seems to be fullfilling that. i like discussing the game... but your recent posts seem like they're really (repeating myself) making an effort to dogg EM... it's gone beyond making points... it's just beating a dead horse... despite that i actually AGREE with many things you talk about.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Jul 2009, 23:02
In red so you can READ it

Funny, I find the red to be much harder to read than the default white. :D

thomasaquinas
2nd Jul 2009, 07:25
what are you talking about? what argument. it wasn't EVEN an argument FOR a crappy prequel, it was my view on why i'm not afraid and crying about DX3 possibly sucking.Saying "oh, it'll do" or "who really cares anyway?" may as well be an argument in favour of a mediocre Deus Ex prequel. You certainly don't appear to be concerned with arguing for the best prequel, anyway.
not that i'm saying anyone out there is crying. did i make an argument that it's OK for them to make a crappy game? no, i just said that i don't really care. i'm excited to see a prequel, if it sucks, i'll live and still be just as happy with the original as i was... so it's a can't lose situation.So... you don't care? Then why are you here? Actually, scrap that, why are you here, on the Deus Ex 3 forums writing essays?


and yea, if the game sucks then ANOTHER sequel will be out of the question,It will? By that argument, Deus Ex 3 wouldn't exist at all because Invisible War failed. Furthermore it is entirely possible for a game to suck but be a commercial success. This is even more worrying because it ensures, not only a Deus Ex 4, but one following the dumbed down design of Deus Ex 3.
but, in the reality-based world we live in, there's only 1 shot we have at even THIS iteration, and it's being made by EM. so as long as we have to deal with that fact... then there's only so much i can whine about and wish for.Yes, and thankfully for the species, not all of us are so content to sit around and watch the devaluation of the music, film and games industries into artistically-devoid corporate mediocrity. But you just continue to not care, if that suits you.


right now, i just want a game with some inspiration and guts of it's own built on the premise, depth and atmosphere of the original.You think Deus Ex 3 is built on guts and inspiration?! EM stripped out innovative design ideas not seen on the market since Deus Ex and replaced them with gameplay mechanics lifted directly out of games currently on the market. Even down to the art-style, which is half-lifted out of GITS and half from BioShock. You're calling this "inspiration"? You must think that "inspiration" means the opposite of its actual meaning, then.

so how does that affect how much you love and love to replay DX? so you're saying if there is some sort of inconsistency, which there will be cause there always is, that you will then play DX and say to yourself "there's no way that this MJ-12 lab could look like this when in DX3 they had way more polygons and much more superfulous detail in them... and these computer screens? am i supposed to believe that alex jacobsen would accept keyboard pants and physical computer screens after DX3's holographic screen and no keyboard whatsoever??!? i mean what is it with this game? it sucks! forget DX! i'm DONE!"??Oh, like I said, it doesn't effect the original Deus Ex. But you're going to have to come up with a stronger argument than that as for why its okay to make a sub-par, mediocre prequel. Furthermore, lack of respect (or knowledge of) canon indicates something about the attitudes and design philosophies DX3 is being created with - poor attitudes we should expect to permeate, and have ramifications for, all areas of the game's design. It's not looking good. Lack of respect for canon indicates that the game will likely be mediocre, because of what it indicates about design attitudes. That's the real problem.


i mean really. i'm not against not liking some of the screen shots and other things baout DX3 that we know thus far... i don't like health regen etc... but jesus... i will accept whatever explanation they give me, cause they are writing it, they have the position of actually making the game happen... suspension of disbelief... I'm sorry, are you familiar with the concept of marketing. You'll trust whatever they say? You believe everything you see on the News, too? Wow. Were you disappointed to find out that Fallout 3 didn't really have "over 300 endings", too?

i guess there's only so far, IMO, we can go with either praise or negativity (what would be thge proper opposite of the term "praise"? praise or ______.... i can't think of it).That would be "criticism", and it's not necessarily a negative word.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Jul 2009, 08:50
All opinions remain mere speculation. :)

I don't believe that EM will make a "sub-par, mediocre prequel". From past interviews, FAQs and art we've seen so far, it seems evident that EM are aspiring to create a great game, They have in their grasp two of the world's finest games ever made (DX and Thief) and I believe they will do a good job, especially as they seem to be taking their time to get it right.

Of course, nobody knows how the game will turn out 'exactly'. But I, for one, will continue to remain positive. :cool:

thomasaquinas
2nd Jul 2009, 12:46
All opinions remain mere speculation."All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."
Douglas Adams

But then what would Douglas Adams know? He's obviously an idiot.

:rolleyes:

SageSavage
2nd Jul 2009, 13:28
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."
Douglas Adams

But then what would Douglas Adams know? He's obviously an idiot.

:rolleyes:

He is dead.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Jul 2009, 13:57
^
Now that is the absolute truth. :cool:

R.I.P. :)

InGroove2
2nd Jul 2009, 14:30
Saying "oh, it'll do" or "who really cares anyway?" may as well be an argument in favour of a mediocre Deus Ex prequel. You certainly don't appear to be concerned with arguing for the best prequel, anyway. So... you don't care? Then why are you here? Actually, scrap that, why are you here, on the Deus Ex 3 forums writing essays?
no, no it may as well NOT be an argument. the fact that you're taking it as such is ludicrous and completely misguided. Get over it dude... i happen to hold the opinion that, given the circumstance of EM actually making this game, it IS happening they ARE doing it... i simply don't care about bashing or praising it to the degree that ya'll seem to be. I simply don't care that much about my own personal, small, mildly-informed opinion on what makes a game better or worse. I'm congniscent of the fact taht i don't know that much about designing a good game, i just know what i like when i see it. I'm not arguing for anything EXCEPT chilling the*&% out because I'm not making the game and because we've already said so much about what we do and do not like. Jesus, get off my case, i've been very clear about this being my own opinion. if you wanna just lambast me personally, do it on a PM so people don't have to deal with your irrational and unfounded rants about things that i'm NOT saying but you seem to think I'm saying. before you take my opinion and turn it into an offense on you and the people who are as genius as you.
your post was filled with judgements about me and my intellect without ANY discussion. it's quite disgusting and ignorant and really makes you look pretty dumb.

how about you discuss with me what i said, if you're so interested... instead of choosing to draw crooked lines between what i'm saying and some other argument which are are CLEARLY predisposed to rebutt.



It will? By that argument, Deus Ex 3 wouldn't exist at all because Invisible War failed. Furthermore it is entirely possible for a game to suck but be a commercial success. This is even more worrying because it ensures, not only a Deus Ex 4, but one following the dumbed down design of Deus Ex 3.Yes, and thankfully for the species, not all of us are so content to sit around and watch the devaluation of the music, film and games industries into artistically-devoid corporate mediocrity. But you just continue to not care, if that suits you.

you're right. i meant "sucks" as in, doesn't doo well commercially. i should have clarified. you're right, it COULD be a bad game and do well commercially and then folow with an even crappier #4. so what?



You think Deus Ex 3 is built on guts and inspiration?! EM stripped out innovative design ideas not seen on the market since Deus Ex and replaced them with gameplay mechanics lifted directly out of games currently on the market. Even down to the art-style, which is half-lifted out of GITS and half from BioShock. You're calling this "inspiration"? You must think that "inspiration" means the opposite of its actual meaning, then.
Oh, like I said, it doesn't effect the original Deus Ex. But you're going to have to come up with a stronger argument than that as for why its okay to make a sub-par, mediocre prequel. Furthermore, lack of respect (or knowledge of) canon indicates something about the attitudes and design philosophies DX3 is being created with - poor attitudes we should expect to permeate, and have ramifications for, all areas of the game's design. It's not looking good. Lack of respect for canon indicates that the game will likely be mediocre, because of what it indicates about design attitudes. That's the real problem.

read again, smart guy. i did not say DX3 was built on those characteristics. i said that's what i would want. i did not, by any stretch say that i thought DX3 was. and, for the record, THE GAME IS NOT FINISHED AND WE KNOW SO LITTLE HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY PURPORT TO SAY THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THE GAME IS BUILT ON? THAT makes two hugely ignorant arguments right there. next?

[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, are you familiar with the concept of marketing. You'll trust whatever they say? You believe everything you see on the News, too? Wow. Were you disappointed to find out that Fallout 3 didn't really have "over 300 endings", too? [/QUOTE]

what the hell are you talking about here?!?!?! marketing has NOTHING to do with what i said. are you nuts? are you familiar with not thinking you're right all the time? i mean youre not even in the ball park of what i was saying.
are you familiar with discussion? jesus man. this was totally uncalled for. you misconstrued just about everything i've said... and then seemed to ignore how much of it was, as i said, my own opinion.



as a lifelong musician with a degree in music i know alot about the devaluing of art and music. and what i know about it is that the freaking audsiences have too much say in what artists do. audiences are finnicky and unloyal and want to be cartered to. EVEN YOU. iuf you haven't noticed already that you clearly think you know what's right and that it should be followed or else the good people of EM are jerks and have ruiined something.

the audiences do not run the show. art and music and games are expressions of the artist. devaluation of art has come because of the audiences, audiences like this who want to run the lives of artists so that the audience can GEt WHAT THEY WANT. it's disgusting. we're never going to avoid popular artists or popular games from wanting to appeal to the largest audience, which generally means dumbed down art.... but the devaluation comes from the audience not valuing art because they want everything new to live up to some unrealistic, crazy standard of the past greats....

so, in light of my thoughts on that, it is my opinion that i do not care if the game sucks because it's more important to me that I respect the makers and respect that they want to make the best game that they can. otherwise we're just trying to make them OUR puppets, which is terrible and further devalues artists.
if it wasn't for this new fangled IPOD age, who do not value music and art because they can get any song at any moment on their shuiffle or from a download, i'd have a living in music right now.

so yeah, i'm really really sensitive to the value of artists. they should be left to do what they think is best and we, as audience members can say that we don't or do like it... but to act like we know what's best is aweful and if i were at EM, i'd ignore those like you because you have no clue what it's like to be where they are.


long enough for ya?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Jul 2009, 14:48
...the audiences do not run the show. art and music and games are expressions of the artist.

Absolutely agree. :thumb:

MaxxQ1
2nd Jul 2009, 15:31
snip of an excellent, but rather long, post

:thumb: :thumb:

GamerX51
2nd Jul 2009, 15:51
Oh, for Christ's sake people! Do you realize just how utterly ridiculous both sides of this argument are starting to look? I can't believe that there are actually people out there in the world who take gaming this seriously. :lol: I think both thomasaquinas and InGroove2 need to just chill out and get down off their respective high horses.

Thomas, while there are some things in your arguments that I agree with (at least in principle), you need to keep in mind that we (as gamers) do not get any say in how a game is made, and EM is in no way obligated to humor us. Eidos owns the franchise, and they both can and will do whatever they want with it. If you don't like the direction they take the game, then vote with your wallet and don't buy it - I guarantee you that EM will most definitely get the message if enough people do that.

And InGroove2, while I have sympathy for your plight (as an aspiring musician myself), you need to remember that at the end of the day, it's the "fickle audience" that ultimately gives us our paychecks; if they don't like what we're offering them, then it is their right to express their displeasure by whatever means they feel is appropriate, be that by not paying for our products anymore, or by posting scathing reviews on a public forum.

InGroove2
2nd Jul 2009, 16:07
Oh, for Christ's sake people! Do you realize just how utterly ridiculous both sides of this argument are starting to look? I can't believe that there are actually people out there in the world who take gaming this seriously. :lol: I think both thomasaquinas and InGroove2 need to just chill out and get down off their respective high horses.

Thomas, while there are some things in your arguments that I agree with, you need to keep in mind that we (as gamers) do not get any say in how a game is made, and EM is in no way obligated to humor us. Eidos owns the franchise, and they both can and will do whatever they want with it. If you don't like the direction they take the game, then vote with your wallet and don't buy it - I guarantee you that EM will most definitely get the message if enough people do that.

And InGroove2, while I have sympathy for your plight (as an aspiring musician myself), you need to remember that at the end of the day, it's the "fickle audience" that ultimately gives us our paychecks; if they don't like what we're offering them, then it is their right to express their displeasure by whatever means they feel is appropriate, be that by not paying for our products anymore, or by posting scathing reviews on a public forum.


hey man, he attacked me... i just wanted to defend myself. of course they have the right, and of course they pay for the product. i said, audiences can say what they want. but i think it's an important thing to point out that while the IPOD generation has made more music more available, it has created a disposition among audiences that "they don't have to put up with crap". which is true they don't.

But, with that attitude comes this idea that... for example at every local band show i am at, or play, the audience has a clear attitude of "go ahead... SHOW me something". with that is this notion that the artist is there to impress them. which the artist SHOULD aim to do, BUT the attitude that an audience is in control like that creates a situation where people are not prepared to see a piece of art for what it is, or see the artists as his/her own person... audiences do not view art, music, games, anything as something special (in general), they view it (because of technology) as either spomething they can do themselves with their garageband program or something that they could find easily via torrents/itunes etc. Artists do not get a fair shake at an audiences attention because of this predisposition and i truly feel that this is the heart of the problem. not that downloading deracts from revenue, that's BS, it's that the fact that almost ANYONE can make music/games etc with very little resrouces that, while by professional standards do not match up, but by consumer standards (that is, standards which are not discerning in terms of quality or craftsmanship), that somehow EVERYONE is an expert and NO ONE is impressed.

we're never gonna get DX again. never. And we've done a good job here expressing what we do and do not like about games and the info about THIS game. beyond that, which i think is respectble and the right of audiences, i cannot standby silently and watch people simply lambast the people of EM and Stephan and Rene etc etc. i've read some pretty scathing insults to Stephan which are totally unfounded, hurtful and ignorant. that kind of thing is what i'm really railling against here. i think that we need to value EM and what they have to offer and not arrogantly equate "we don't like how this game seems to be turning out" with "EM are a bunch of jerks and are stupid and don't know what they're doing". it's too much for me to ignore.

i'm sorry i write so much. my job is boring at the moment.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Jul 2009, 19:01
... if they don't like what we're offering them, then it is their right to express their displeasure by whatever means they feel is appropriate, be that by not paying for our products anymore, or by posting scathing reviews on a public forum.

Agreed. But I guess the difference here is that critique is best offered AFTER the audience has seen you perform, not before.



i've read some pretty scathing insults to Stephan which are totally unfounded, hurtful and ignorant. that kind of thing is what i'm really railling against here. i think that we need to value EM and what they have to offer and not arrogantly equate "we don't like how this game seems to be turning out" with "EM are a bunch of jerks and are stupid and don't know what they're doing". it's too much for me to ignore.


Also agreed.

LatwPIAT
2nd Jul 2009, 19:44
If we're to look at signs, what I find worrying is how Deus Ex seemingly has little to no overlap, thus limiting the possibilities of choice in character customization. While we might be able to chose between hacking, stealth, lockpicking, fighting and whatever, I've yet to see any signs that I have the freedom of choice that Deus Ex let me have. Consider the following:

In DX, there was definite overlap between all forms of resource management. Health could be regained in the following ways:

MedBot
MedKit
Healing Augmentation
Food & Drink
Water Fountains

Where the efficiency of Medkits was affected by the Medicine skill.

In a similar manner, one's accuracy with a weapon could be affected in three (four) ways:

Skill
Targeting Augmentation
Accuracy Weapon Mod
(Alcohol & Zyme)

Even swimming had three independent factors:

Rebreather
Swimming skill
Aqualung augmentation

Where the Environmental skill factors into the use of rebreather. A character who wanted to explore ocean environments or make amphibious assault could fill their inventory with rebreathers, upgrade their Aqualung, upgrade their Environmental skill, and/or upgrade their swimming skill.

Stealth is equally interesting, because stealth consists of more than one factor; Sound & Visibility.

Silencer Weapons Mod
Silent Running Aug
Stealth Camouflage
Stealth Camouflage Augmentation
Stun Prod
Baton (Low-Tech Weapons skill and Mêlée Combat Aug)
Vision Augmentation
Spy Drone Augmentation

There is, essentially no one way to accomplish something in Deus Ex. Locked Doors could be opened by picking the lock (Lockpics & accompanying skill) finding the key, breaking them open with crowbars or explosives, or finding a connected computer. If you were on fire, you could find some water, a Fire Extinguisher or use the right augmentation. Bio-electrical energy could be recharged either through use of an item, or by finding the appropriate 'bot.

Comparatively, Invisiable War (which I haven't finished playing yet, for obvious reasons) had much more limited design. There was no skill system, so there were no skills factoring into anything, meaning that use of lockpicks and multitools war reduced from 3 factors to two (Lockpick+skill+key -> Lockpick+key, etc.) There were no weapons mode either, meaning that player skill was the only factor in gunplay. Former skills were often tied to augmentations, and augmentations were tied not to 10 types of cannisters, but to 2 (or was it 3?) meaning that there was no overlapping areas at all, save between methods of killing people and/or bots.

Now, what we know of Deus Ex 3 is the following: There will be auto-regenerative health. There will be no skills. Experience points will upgrade weapons. There will not be universal ammo.

Now, by removing skills, there is, much like Invisible War, no overlap in that area. Additionally, health is absolutely free, so there is no overlap in any of those areas either. Experience points go towards Weapon Mods. If we now look at accuracy in the game, and assume there is a targeting augmentation, the possibilities have been reduced from 3 (Aug, Mod, Skill) down to 2 (Mod, Aug) which, of course, is if the game actually has a targeting aug. It might not. If we can swim in this game, the only ways to affect that ability is to get a rebreather or an aug. That's from four (Skill, Skill, Item, Aug) to two (Aug, Item)

Being a strong believer in that choice is what makes the best games. (Deus Ex, Planescape: Torment & Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Fallout 1 & 2, Baldur's Gate I & II, etc.) I find this reduction in choice and possibilities a worrying trend.

Ninjerk
2nd Jul 2009, 20:11
A scarily convincing argument.

dixieflatline
2nd Jul 2009, 21:19
Q: What kind of RPG doesn't have skills?

A: A game that isn't an RPG.

No seriously though: Are we sure there aren't skills? I sort of forget now (haven't been here as much... decided might as well wait a while until new info is released.)

[checks FAQ again]

Only have skill points in different Augs could work out okay. I dunno. Again it is too early to say anything. Like if you have augs that help swimming, help hacking etc, then it isn't much different putting skill points in those than it is putting skill points in character personal skills that do the same thing, right?

The team should give us ---1---- screen shot to look at . At least it would give us something to talk about for the next 6 months until the dev blog comes out or something / :)

Icarus AI
2nd Jul 2009, 22:25
as a lifelong musician with a degree in music i know alot about the devaluing of art and music. and what i know about it is that the freaking audsiences have too much say in what artists do. audiences are finnicky and unloyal and want to be cartered to. EVEN YOU. iuf you haven't noticed already that you clearly think you know what's right and that it should be followed or else the good people of EM are jerks and have ruiined something.

the audiences do not run the show. art and music and games are expressions of the artist. devaluation of art has come because of the audiences, audiences like this who want to run the lives of artists so that the audience can GEt WHAT THEY WANT. it's disgusting. we're never going to avoid popular artists or popular games from wanting to appeal to the largest audience, which generally means dumbed down art.... but the devaluation comes from the audience not valuing art because they want everything new to live up to some unrealistic, crazy standard of the past greats....

so, in light of my thoughts on that, it is my opinion that i do not care if the game sucks because it's more important to me that I respect the makers and respect that they want to make the best game that they can. otherwise we're just trying to make them OUR puppets, which is terrible and further devalues artists.
if it wasn't for this new fangled IPOD age, who do not value music and art because they can get any song at any moment on their shuiffle or from a download, i'd have a living in music right now.

so yeah, i'm really really sensitive to the value of artists. they should be left to do what they think is best and we, as audience members can say that we don't or do like it... but to act like we know what's best is aweful and if i were at EM, i'd ignore those like you because you have no clue what it's like to be where they are.


long enough for ya?

But don't you see that we are worried that EM is catering to the mainstream audiance? The fact is that EM can do whatever they want whetever we cry or not. Should we just stay silent and ignore our feelings because we are afraid we might hurt the feelings of the developers? It is not our duty to enjoy everything we are thrown at and I think you are really underestimating the intelligence of the fans if you think we can't recognise what is a bad or a good decision.

EM isn't composed of some video game making gods who know everything about games and we should just accept that they know better than we do. I don't think they necessarily do know better than we do on all occasions. Sometimes they might and sometimes they might not.

Ashpolt
2nd Jul 2009, 22:34
EM isn't composed of some video game making gods who know everything about games and we should just accept that they know better than we do. I don't think they necessarily do know better than we do on all occasions. Sometimes they might and sometimes they might not.

This. There is a vast difference between being able to make a good game, and simply being able to code. The fact that Eidos Montreal are "professionals" in one of these areas doesn't necessarily mean they are in the other.

Also, great post LatwPIAT.

FrankCSIS
3rd Jul 2009, 03:40
I see many of your points, Groovey, but the audience is an easy target. The various industries dug their own tombs by being the first to make a move and start the dance with the audience and the tailored experience. Focus groups is quite possibly the worse possible destroyer of arts, and last time I checked no one in the audience ever demanded this. By being so obsessed about not upsetting anyone, they set themselves for one hell of a fall, and this is where we are now. Artists have been feeding the audience like little babies for over a decade and suddenly you don't like the pudding you're serving? Tough luck, but the situation was created entirely from scratch. Audiences were perfectly content with the masterpieces of yesteryear, and their respective creation process.

Have a look at every single interview given by EM so far. Find me one that doesn't stipulate, in big bold letters, that the fans of the original DX are their top priority. Find me one that doesn't mention how this community was setup, and how they supposedly listen to what we have to say. Whether or not this is actually true is highly debatable, but the fact remains that, even for themselves, it seems to be the one thing they absolutely have to mention in order to look good in magazines.

As for the actual artistic part, what you have to keep in mind is that the mechanical part takes a very large portion of a game, more so than photography or movies, and while I agree that art should not be discussed until the final product is presented, it's perfectly normal for anyone with a bit of logic to be questioning the mechanical choices and structures employed by the team, especially so when the logic behind the choice is debatable, or somewhat dubious. It's not that anyone here knows or doesn't know better, it's just that there are some realities in design no one can escape, whether or not they are artists or pros. Unless we are talking about actual geniuses, which have to possibility to envision something as a whole which none of us here or outside can possibly materialise or compute, many people in here can tell you exactly how their mechanical choices will end up affecting the game, by sheer deduction. Thus the reaction to some decisions.

It's not healthy for the community, this much I will agree. But a lot of decisions taken turned out to be not so good for the group either, so I wouldn't be too quick to pinpoint the fault on anyone.

thomasaquinas
3rd Jul 2009, 07:14
no, no it may as well NOT be an argument. the fact that you're taking it as such is ludicrous and completely misguided. Get over it dude... i happen to hold the opinion that, given the circumstance of EM actually making this game, it IS happening they ARE doing it... i simply don't care about bashing or praising it to the degree that ya'll seem to be. I simply don't care that much about my own personal, small, mildly-informed opinion on what makes a game better or worse. I'm congniscent of the fact taht i don't know that much about designing a good game, i just know what i like when i see it. I'm not arguing for anything EXCEPT chilling the*&% out because I'm not making the game and because we've already said so much about what we do and do not like. Jesus, get off my case, i've been very clear about this being my own opinion. if you wanna just lambast me personally, do it on a PM so people don't have to deal with your irrational and unfounded rants about things that i'm NOT saying but you seem to think I'm saying. before you take my opinion and turn it into an offense on you and the people who are as genius as you.
your post was filled with judgements about me and my intellect without ANY discussion. it's quite disgusting and ignorant and really makes you look pretty dumb.Blah, blah, blah, bark, bark, bark, noise, noise, noise, noise, noise. Let me know when you want to actually say something.

you're right. i meant "sucks" as in, doesn't doo well commercially. i should have clarified. you're right, it COULD be a bad game and do well commercially and then folow with an even crappier #4. so what?Sorry, I was just thinking that the deterioration of the games industry is a bad thing... To be prevented - that sort of thing.

read again, smart guy. i did not say DX3 was built on those characteristics. i said that's what i would want. i did not, by any stretch say that i thought DX3 was. You said you're excited about Deus Ex 3
and followed it closely by a positive idea of what Deus Ex 3 might be. It wouldn't take a genius to infer that you were presenting reasons as to why you were excited. I suggest you word things more carefully in future.
[quote]and, for the record, THE GAME IS NOT FINISHED AND WE KNOW SO LITTLE HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY PURPORT TO SAY THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THE GAME IS BUILT ON? THAT makes two hugely ignorant arguments right there.I have the capacity to infer things. It's kind of like when Ion Storm announced Invisible War was to have Universal Ammo. From this we could have inferred things about the design philosophy underpinning the game's development. Are you going to argue that the same design philosophy that would lead to Universal Ammo didn't permeate the rest of Invisible War and have ramifications for other areas of its development? Clearly, it did. It's the same with Regenerating Health in Deus Ex 3. Of course we can infer things about the design process from specific design decisions. If all we knew about Invisible War was that it had Unified Ammo, and I said the same things about it as I am now about Deus Ex 3, you would have called me cynical and said that we didn't yet have enough information to draw conclusions. You, of course, would have turned out to be wrong in that case.

what the hell are you talking about here?!?!?! marketing has NOTHING to do with what i said. are you nuts? are you familiar with not thinking you're right all the time? i mean youre not even in the ball park of what i was saying.
are you familiar with discussion? jesus man. this was totally uncalled for. you misconstrued just about everything i've said... and then seemed to ignore how much of it was, as i said, my own opinion. You said you "i will accept whatever explanation they give me" regarding why it makes sense for Regenerating Health to be in the game. I was pointing out why this is a silly position.

the audiences do not run the show.Actually, they do. If Eidos Montreal would like to make a profit and exist to see another second release, that is. Given that they're a company, I would say that's a safe bet. Publishers run the show and market research into audiences runs publishers. The problem is that the majority audience is ruling on design decisions. The Halo crowd is bigger than the System Shock crowd. This is effectively why we have Regenerating Health - not as an artistic decision.
we're never going to avoid popular artists or popular games from wanting to appeal to the largest audience, which generally means dumbed down art.... but the devaluation comes from the audience not valuing art because they want everything new to live up to some unrealistic, crazy standard of the past greats.... How many games like Deus Ex existed on the market when Deus Ex came out? Was it an "unrealistic, crazy" standard then, or?

We seem to be agreeing that audiences controlling artists is a bad thing. I would say that if an audience is asking for meaningfulness and quality, rather than specifics , then this audience should be listened to, however. Things like Regenerating Health represent a loss of meaningfulness.


so, in light of my thoughts on that, it is my opinion that i do not care if the game sucks because it's more important to me that I respect the makers and respect that they want to make the best game that they can. otherwise we're just trying to make them OUR puppets, which is terrible and further devalues artists.Pink Floyd didn't write Dark Side of the Moon because audiences requested it. Kubrick didn't write 2001: A Space Odyssey because it's what audiences want. Yes - audiences are a very large factor in the devaluation, but artists don't have to willingly submit themselves as puppets, either. At least ones that are established.



so yeah, i'm really really sensitive to the value of artists. they should be left to do what they think is best and we, as audience members can say that we don't or do like it... but to act like we know what's best is aweful and if i were at EM, i'd ignore those like you because you have no clue what it's like to be where they are.blah, blah, blah, I'm going to tell someone to get off their moral high-chair by throwing my toys out of mine, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. Whatever, man.

Ashpolt
3rd Jul 2009, 09:00
Just to pick up on something FrankCSIS said:

I agree that when it comes to music and, to an extent, movies, we cannot tell the people behind them what to do, because their value is mostly in the art behind them. Games, on the other hand, have the focus pretty much equally on the artistry and the mechanical aspects, and the mechanical aspects are absolutely open to questioning - if they'd said "the game will be a colourful 8-bit 2D sidescroller" would you still be defending their right to do whatever they want?

Also, there's the fact that if Eidos Montreal want to do their own thing, great - but don't do it with an existing brand name, especially one that wasn't created by them in the first place. To give you a musical equivalent, it's like My Chemical Romance announcing that they're making Dark Side of the Moon 2, and it will be played entirely on Moog.

[EDIT] AND there's the fact that the changes we're complaining about weren't made for artistic reasons anyway, but instead because "the industry as a whole has grown up" - yes, they were made entirely because Eidos Montreal was trying to pander to the public, they just got it wrong.

K^2
3rd Jul 2009, 09:16
... it's like My Chemical Romance announcing that they're making Dark Side of the Moon 2, and it will be played entirely on Moog.
There would be blood.

gamer0004
3rd Jul 2009, 11:18
We're repeating and repeating and repeating ourselves. Augmentations instead of skills didn't work out well in IW. No need no be a psychic to see that it won't in DX3. In IW we found canisters in missions to upgrade augs, this time we'll gain skill points -again in missions, in a similar way- to upgrade them, which is nothing better than IW in my opinion, except this time they can say "Oh look skills are back from DX1, so DX3 is an arpeegee with skills amirite" in interviews. Same ****, different *******.

And I don't even understand why we would NEED skillpoints for augs.

InGroove2
3rd Jul 2009, 13:00
But don't you see that we are worried that EM is catering to the mainstream audiance? The fact is that EM can do whatever they want whetever we cry or not. Should we just stay silent and ignore our feelings because we are afraid we might hurt the feelings of the developers? It is not our duty to enjoy everything we are thrown at and I think you are really underestimating the intelligence of the fans if you think we can't recognise what is a bad or a good decision.

EM isn't composed of some video game making gods who know everything about games and we should just accept that they know better than we do. I don't think they necessarily do know better than we do on all occasions. Sometimes they might and sometimes they might not.

i totally see that. in a later post i went on to say that my feelings stem from when people beat the dead horse and/or insult the game devs. it's just stupid. that's what this Thomasaquinas dude doesn't really get... that i'mtalking about DEGREES here. how far i think we should be going with regard to telling EM how it should be. i think we've done enough and some have resorted to insult. i'm with ya on your points though.



blah, blah, blah, I'm going to tell someone to get off their moral high-chair by throwing my toys out of mine, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark, bark. Whatever, man.

tears, man. tears.

Icarus AI
3rd Jul 2009, 13:04
And I don't even understand why we would NEED skillpoints for augs.

Wait a second... There won't be normal skills? Where does it say that?

imported_van_HellSing
3rd Jul 2009, 13:11
A few previews stated you can spend xp on either augs or weapons. No mention of skills.

Ashpolt
3rd Jul 2009, 14:03
^^ It's more than just not mentioning the skills - they have explicitly stated that experience is only spent on weapons and augs. In other words, it may as well be cash. Deus Ex 3 is as much of a role playing game in this regard as Ghostbusters or Resident Evil 5.

Blade_hunter
3rd Jul 2009, 16:40
Some persons seems to forget the combat, there is combat biomods and combat weapons.
Also the augmentations worked poorly because we have only 5 slots for them and 15 biomods + the light aug against 9 slots for 18 biomods + the light aug and 11 skills.
The difference is more on the possibility number rather than the fact there is skills or not

If they made a system with 20 slots it will be much better than that 5 slot crap from DX IW even with 40 - 50 augs you will have some "passive" ones that work exactly like skills, and the active ones would be the super abilities who uses directly energy from our BE supply

We can have a skill with a separate biomod system and get something poor like
having 4 skills and only 3 custom biomods
I'm certain people would find that stupid because they can't develop their character like before

The fact is; a character development system with skills or not can be deep or very simple second the possibilities offered.
if the game propose a lot of options related to some possible abilities in the game, this one is the factor who made the game deep or poor.

There is games who gave to anybody the opportunity to upgrade
-The inventory
-Hit points
-The "mana" or equivalent in the case of deus ex it's the BE
-The hacking
-Your powers
-Your weapon familiarization
-The ability to get a better benefit from some items (medikits, "mana", hacking resources and such)
-Agility
-Strength
-Intelligence
Etc, etc ...

This vary from game to game but the depth of a character development system is made by the possibilities offered by the system, not by the fact it has skills, skillpoints or not.

I will prepare a little post about regenerating health in the appropriate section because really there too much games with that on now days :(

Blade_hunter
3rd Jul 2009, 17:30
I think you got right about that, some game design decisions seems to give to the community that bad feeling about the game ...

Belboz
3rd Jul 2009, 17:46
This is all speculation based on some pictures and some reviews that may have been in part made up, and you maybe all barking up a banana tree.

Ashpolt
3rd Jul 2009, 17:53
This is all speculation based on some pictures and some reviews that may have been in part made up, and you maybe all barking up a banana tree.

It's taken from direct quotes from the Jean-Francois Dugas and Stephane D'Astous. Experience affects only weapons and augs. That's not speculation.

Blade_hunter
3rd Jul 2009, 18:25
Speculation, some persons does, but some things aren't from reviews; they are from official announcements.
The fact the new modification system is poor or rich nobody have this information except, the fact we have approximatively 40 augs
some persons seems to think this is potentially bad but I think it's perhaps a good news.
but how much slots, we have ?
This is a complete mystery.

An unified skill / aug system can be good or bad second the flexibility it offers and the character development possibilities it offer.

An unified system like that can allow you to have more "powers" or abilities second what you want.
in my 20 slot system example

you can have 15 permanent abilities and only 5 "powers"
or 9 permanent abilities and 11 "powers"

Personally I think pretty much systems can be developed or not but it depends what we want to allow to a player and the interactivity inside the game.

The weapons are upgraded by skills for me it depends what the skills can upgrade ...
The Augs too this seems a bit the same as weapons, it depends what we can upgrade ....

Blade_hunter
3rd Jul 2009, 18:49
Hum taking by that way this could be very pessimistic ... But I prefer to make suggestions that I think good and enjoyable rather than talking about things I don't wan't except to add some informations to avoid some mistakes ...

dixieflatline
3rd Jul 2009, 20:18
Another pessimistic theory:

Remember how Fallout 3 was supposed to have 240 endings, and in the end we realized that they were just the combinations of the side quests? Maybe there are 10 augmentations in DX3, with 4 levels each, and they are saying "40 augs".

Ya I could totally see that being the case.
W
hen I heard about Fallout's 3's 300 endings (or whatever the number was ) and Borderlands 500,000+ weapons, I immediately realized what this actually meant --- that the 300 endings where very slightly different, and there would actually only be like 2-5 'actual' endings, like different video endings MAYBE, and that the 500,000 weapons in Borderlands would be built by have maybe randomizing the parts of guns, but there was only actually maybe 50 different parts at most, not 500,000 different models of weapons.

I could totally see the '40 augs' being 10 augs with 4 levels each :( Now you got me worried !

Wow if they have 10 augs and only weapons that you can upgrade with your 'skill points' , I'm going to be shocked that they didn't seem to learn anything from Invisible War.

What the hell is wrong with making Deus Ex 3 an RPG? I don't get it. People would like to play it, and buy it massive quantities, if it was a well done cyberpunk RPG. Why would they be dead-set on shaving off the real RPG elements of the beloved franchise is beyond me. (Not saying this is the case, but sometimes this impression I get , this early on.)

Blade_hunter
3rd Jul 2009, 21:47
Personally I can "create" / imagine approximatively 200 - 250 weapons and some of them are similar to some point (for example assault rifles, assault carbine, OICW, laser autorifle, bullpup assault carbine, etc ...) and this includes some overkill weapons from the hell as well as useless weapons, imaginative and classic weapons.

500 000 for me it's fairly impossible there can be only a ton of variants but 500 000 weapons since some games can't have more than 100 ...
If they say 300 - 400 weapons that can be believable, but 500 000 this is a bit a big lie in front of my nose, this needs a ton of work about modeling, programming, animating that needs a large active community to be done.

In comparison 40 augs are much more possible than the 500 000 weapons of fallout 3 also 200 endings it's a bit too much if they made 10 endings that could be a miracle because rare are the games who features more than 5 endings

Some persons can find myself pretentious but personally, I don't care ...

gamer0004
4th Jul 2009, 09:51
What the hell is wrong with making Deus Ex 3 an RPG? I don't get it. People would like to play it, and buy it massive quantities, if it was a well done cyberpunk RPG. Why would they be dead-set on shaving off the real RPG elements of the beloved franchise is beyond me. (Not saying this is the case, but sometimes this impression I get , this early on.)

Deus Ex sold "really, really well" in 2000 (about 1.1 million copies). If you release the game on the Xbox and PS3 you can easily sell a lot more (there are always idiots who buy games they don't like, and there will be some people who buy the game on a console and like it). Some very small adjustments would be fine to make the game more accessible. Like when you earn skillpoints the log would say "100 skillpoints earned - press F2 to invest them" or something like that, because some people didn't realize they could be used for anything. Same for goal updates.
Besides that, some small adjustments to the aiming system the system should be less extreme - you are a trained agent when you start so you shouldn't have to wait 10 seconds to get a proper shot at the enemy (think OFP or even FEAR).
Also, a Macro for augs would be kind of nice (especially for consoles, but for the PC version as well).

Deus Ex isn't that hard, it can be played as a shooter, it has all kinds of fancy things like battles and explosions and mechs and bots. Even "dumb" gamers could have a lot of fun with it (with some minor adjustments).

However, if you turn it into a BioShock clone, it will be an epic disaster. Gamers will think of it as some lame copy of Bioshock, and it won't be as good as BS anyway. So nobody will buy it, because it doesn't have anything that appeals to gamers.


EDIT: reviews of TNM show that game journalists still like games like DX. By reviving the franchise and actually improving it the developers could score some GOTY prices, and those do sell your game. DX3, however, won't get any price, I'm afraid.

Alex Jacobson
28th Jul 2009, 20:04
Being a strong believer in that choice is what makes the best games. (Deus Ex, Planescape: Torment & Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Fallout 1 & 2, Baldur's Gate I & II, etc.) I find this reduction in choice and possibilities a worrying trend.

You have named the best games in history.
Don't forget The Ultima series. Also TES:2, Arcanum, and Jagged Alliance 2 are a good bit of old school fun.
KotOR and Gary's Mod are much more recent but should be admitted to this pantheon.

P.S.
Those of you that want to see a good game with a ridiculous amount of guns and things should play JA2 with the 1.13 mod.

FrankCSIS
29th Jul 2009, 21:59
Jagged Alliance 2 was some serious pure fun. I reboot it from time to time for some good ol mercenary action.

qJohnnyp
30th Jul 2009, 01:36
I wouldn't mind a GitS vibe myself, I've always associated GitS and Deus Ex closely, so that's not a con in my opinion.


Perfectly put.

Jima B
30th Jul 2009, 02:36
This thread makes me want to cry :(

Its YOUR fault EM, YOURS :'(

justalookinggl
2nd Aug 2009, 15:28
I've gotta say most of this discussion around GITS and DX3 seems to be firmly wrapped in anti-anime viewpoints. Yeah DX3 has some stylistic similarities in its representation of physical areas, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing; Anime has some fantastic animation and artistic style. At its best it can surpass most American animation, and rival anything put out by Disney. Honestly, when I first bought the PCZone issue with the article regarding DX3, I really loved the locations pictured. I thought it looked superb. The only reason people are complaining about the way the game art looks is because they can compare it to GITS, which is immediately influenced by anti-anime sentiment.

How many ways can you draw or create a guy with a giant gun for an arm? Someone who carries a ridiculously big gun immediately conjures up certain images; He's going to have to be extremely strong and muscle-y. Since he's able to get weaponry like that and has the time to work out he's probably in the army or some military group; hence the shaved head. Then when you combine these things you start thinking of brawn over brain. Maybe it's a cliché to create a character thus, but to say it comes from GITS is laying too much credit at its feet. They didn't come up with the image, that's been around for years. DX3 is simply utilising the same image that they did. As for the pictures of the offices? The similarities pretty much end with there being a desk, chair, four walls, a roof and large windows. The style of the room is completely different. GITS is straight, linear and new. Its only use is in being a room, to provide an enclosure. DX3 has architectural embellishments meaning the room was made to be both aesthetically pleasing and provide comfort, and to function as an enclosure. It also implies that the room has history since we assume future buildings will be minimalist and purely functional. I mean, if we're going to compare the two rooms we might as well compare the apartment from Friends because as we all know, that had large windows as well. And as for the sewer? Its a sewer. How different can you possibly make it from everything we've seen before? It's green from grime and perhaps some fungus growth, it's shadowy because there is only a small, artificial light. And it's underground because it's a sewer.

I agree that the fact that the Devs have so little experience in RPGs is worrying, though it does not mean they're less capable of creating an RPG. You wouldn't say that Christopher Nolan is incapable of doing a comedy, an epic or a romance film just because he's only done drama. Nor would you say that Chuck Berry is incapable of creating a heavy rock song. Perhaps the Devs are better able to create an action shooter, but that doesn't mean that they're going to, trying to or even interested in making one. This is one of the problems with this forum, there's no way to ask a developer what games they like and what they prefer to play. Thus we don't know if they were contractually obliged to create only action games by higher ups, or were perhaps simply in that line of game development because they couldn't get into Ion Storm's RPG department. What we don't know is more worrying for me than what we do know since we know so very little.

Hi there.Just my 2 cents worth of opinion...

A lot of people seem to assosiate anything that has the world anime in it with characters super slender,with huge eyes,super spiky hair and some stupendous expressions...Ohhh and guns 10 times the size of the characters...

Oh and i forgot too also some cute fairy animals...pokemons etc...

Yet there are some amazing showcases of japanish anime movies like akira,millenium actress,roh jin,tokyo godfathers,paprika,appleseed(the new one),Gits movies...

Also blade runner is an incredible movie altogether with one of the most surreal looks into the future of any movie i have seen even after so many years....
Both Blade runner and Gits awe their creation to Phillips k ****s nover "Do androids dream of electric sheep" and when phillip k **** saw the movie(before its final theatrical release as he died) he said to ridley scott that that was the way he imagined the book when he wrote it....

That author wrote some amazing stuff(as well as asimov and orson scott and hg wells ) and movies like total recall,paycheck,knowing was based on them...Though total recall was written in the 1970 it actually predicted a hell of a lot of stuff...(like the actuall huge amounts of frozen water undernith mars poles,mars extraterrestial organism existence and even the presence of alien structures)

So excuse me for bubbling so much but really i cannot think of anything bad about the infuence of some of the best movies live or animated to deus ex...

gamer0004
2nd Aug 2009, 17:13
This:
How many ways can you draw or create a guy with a giant gun for an arm? Someone who carries a ridiculously big gun immediately conjures up certain images; He's going to have to be extremely strong and muscle-y. Since he's able to get weaponry like that and has the time to work out he's probably in the army or some military group; hence the shaved head. Then when you combine these things you start thinking of brawn over brain. Maybe it's a cliché to create a character thus, but to say it comes from GITS is laying too much credit at its feet. is the whole problem - there shouldn't be a cliche guy with a ridiculously big gun for an arm.

Malah
2nd Aug 2009, 18:05
This: is the whole problem - there shouldn't be a cliche guy with a ridiculously big gun for an arm.

butit looks so cool :D:D:cool:

mad_red
2nd Aug 2009, 18:24
Yep, DX1 didn't have flashy graphics or anything like that. There was no need to show off how the cyborg has ZOMFG teh GuNs r00lz!!1one. All the characters looked like blockheads anyway. MIB looked like the typical doesn't-fit-in MIB, the cyborg looked like a super soldier, and the big walker like something that belonged on a field of battle. Navarre and Hermann showed the extremes of mechanical augs..

So how would you describe the new guy with the gun? I'd call him the bad ass bad guy. He supposed to look big and mean, and makes you want to waste him. But, he doesn't seem to have a functional role - he's not a character that typifies a certain development in society.

Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe he does have a meaningful role to play?

spm1138
13th Aug 2009, 16:06
David Anfossi, producer:
-Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (SHOOTER)
-Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones
-AND 1 Streetball

Total amount of games: 3.
RPGs: 0.
Shooters: 1.


Francois Lapikas, senior game designer:
-Splinter Cell: Double Agent (SHOOTER)
-Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory (SHOOTER)
-Knight's Apprentice, Memorick’s Adventures (Adventure)

Total amount of games: 3
RPGs: 0.
Shooters: 2.

No.

SC:CT is a stealth game with non-linear levels and reasonably thinky gameplay.

SC:DA is a somewhat dumber steath game but still managed to have some pretty interesting gameplay elements.

If you're going to whine at least get it right.

DX was far more a "shooter" than SC:CT. Good lord :P

Here's a walkthrough:
http://www.5min.com/Video/Splinter-Cell-Chaos-Theory-Walkthrough-Displace-International-39324732

It doesn't show off the non-linearity that well. A better example might be the bank level which has numerous objectives which can be tackled in any order and several routes through. You get given quite open ended problems with lots of different tools to tackle them. Pretty sure I played that level differently (I mean... he's using bullets D: ) . He also insists on using the thermal goggles which is a shame because you miss all the sexy lighting stuff happening.

And how is a strong coherent visual identity a bad thing? DX wasn't even especially good looking by 2000 standards. It also had loads of GiTS looking stuff in it :P AND IT HAD GUYS WITH GUNS FOR ARMS.

GiTS looks pretty good btw. They've got some really good mechanical design going on across it's various incarnations. The clockwork steampunk kinda stuff in the second movie was especially interesting.

It's a much more interesting place to pinch ideas from than... well, what would be the other source of a visual identity for CP stuff? The Matrix? The look of the game is one of the better aspects of it imo.

gamer0004
21st Aug 2009, 18:05
If you're going to whine at least get it right.


If you're going to whine then at least read the rest of the topic.

meaniedevilface
22nd Aug 2009, 01:32
As far as I can see, it can go one of a couple ways.

One, they'll get the balance right. It'll have just enough RPG and shooter elements to feel like a Deus Ex game. This is the ideal, but with the average casual gamer having the attention span of a gnat, I expect it to fall somewhere closer to

Two, it'll continue what began with DX2, and take away even more of the depth, leaving only the shooter elements. This, unfortunately, seems more likely if you look at the gaming trends in the past few years. Gaming has exploded in popularity since DX1, and most people don't want to have to think too much about frivolous things like plot, or depth.

I try to reserve my excitement until there is a lot of information about a game for just this reason. I've come to realize that the games that got me into gaming to begin with are rapidly becoming a thing of the past.

teknikal-vision
22nd Aug 2009, 15:45
This: is the whole problem - there shouldn't be a cliche guy with a ridiculously big gun for an arm.
Yes, a guy with a gun in his arm named Barret of all names. I'm suprised he's caucasian and isn't friends with Cloud Strife! And we also have a bald dude that looks decidedly Hitmanish. Ugh. Come on EM! You can do better than that. If any game should be criticised for being unoriginal I don't want it to be DX3.

Although AJ looking JC Denton-ish is absolutely spot on, especially after we had to endure playing as plain jane Alex D in IW.

Daedalus.
26th Aug 2009, 03:36
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3608/fetal1.jpg

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6674/screensk.jpg

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4200/rundown.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7655/armgun.jpg

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4674/apartment1.jpg

More coming still.


I would say that they have been watching too much Ghost in the Shell.


.

spm1138
26th Aug 2009, 03:48
GiTS2 borrowed from all over too :D

minus0ne
26th Aug 2009, 05:42
Personally I don't understand why people would object to EM taking a little inspiration from Ghost in the Shell: it was, after all, one of the main inspirations of the original (not only the technology and thermoptic camo, but the background and atmosphere / "feel" of the game world).

gamer0004
26th Aug 2009, 09:03
Personally I don't understand why people would object to EM taking a little inspiration from Ghost in the Shell: it was, after all, one of the main inspirations of the original (not only the technology and thermoptic camo, but the background and atmosphere / "feel" of the game world).

DX didn't look like GitS. I only hate the look of GitS, not its themes.

Ninjerk
26th Aug 2009, 20:06
Seburo weapons aesthetic > Deus Ex' weapons aesthetic

IOOI
26th Aug 2009, 22:13
I'm expecting official feedback from the makers... :hmm:

JulianP
27th Aug 2009, 05:25
but the devaluation comes from the audience not valuing art because they want everything new to live up to some unrealistic, crazy standard of the past greats....
What? We should always be striving to best that which came prior, and fully expect other's to strive to it too. Lowering one's standards is a slippery slope.

spm1138
27th Aug 2009, 12:47
DX didn't look like GitS. I only hate the look of GitS, not its themes.

Why?

Which? The film or the manga?

Shoji Kawamori did some good work on it and the overall look of everything was pretty good. It wasn't all that designed imo. There's actually not so much mechanical stuff in it. There's the one spider tank and a couple of helos and that's about it.

The manga might be more of an acquired taste I suppose but I like Shirow's mecha design. He's actually done some research on tank combat and tank design which informs his suits and walking tanks.

DX as created by Ion Storm borrows from GiTS:
The stealth pistol
The AR
The GEP gun
The spider tanks (large and small)
The stealth mods
The templars
Gunther and Anna (they're the fascist dystopian versions of Motoko and Batou obviously... whereas GiTS has a more collectivist outlook on authority and the like)

Slightly at a loss as to why you dislike it so much. :whistle:

I'm much happier with the current look of DX3 than I would be if they just aped the Matrix for example.

thomasaquinas
28th Aug 2009, 01:46
What? We should always be striving to best that which came prior, and fully expect other's to strive to it too. Lowering one's standards is a slippery slope.If the devaluation comes from wanting things to meet the quality of the past greats, then I daresay the devaluation must have already happened years ago.

Daedalus.
28th Aug 2009, 03:54
It appears that the designers are borrowing / stealing from Ergo Proxy, as well.


Ergo Proxy

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae239/JDG-SD/Ergo1.jpg


Notice the camera angles and the text format -- quite similar, if not borrowed / stolen.


.

Jerion
28th Aug 2009, 05:45
...You mean like any number of other similar poses? From all sorts of other movies/games/TV Shows?

Examples:
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd211/jfrolich/5-the-matrix-trinity-dodge-this.jpg
http://troglopundit.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/mal-reynolds.jpg
(Firefly/Serenity FTW!)

Ninjerk
28th Aug 2009, 15:06
What is it with this guy

Red
29th Aug 2009, 00:24
He smoked one too many.

Daedalus.
29th Aug 2009, 05:05
...You mean like any number of other similar poses? From all sorts of other movies/games/TV Shows?

Examples:
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd211/jfrolich/5-the-matrix-trinity-dodge-this.jpg
http://troglopundit.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/mal-reynolds.jpg
(Firefly/Serenity FTW!)


Well, perhaps, everyone in the entertainment / video game industry needs to start thinking for themselves, instead of everyone doing the same things over and over and over again. It gets quite monotonous and boring after the third and the fourth, and on and on .... time.


.

thomasaquinas
29th Aug 2009, 05:59
I like that. People are defending Eidos Montreal by saying "they weren't directly copying someone else, they were just being uninspired and unoriginal in general"

And this is supposed to be a defense?

LatwPIAT
29th Aug 2009, 07:51
I like that. People are defending Eidos Montreal by saying "they weren't directly copying someone else, they were just being uninspired and unoriginal in general"

And this is supposed to be a defense?

A wrongful accusation, no matter what the truth is, is still a wrongful accusation. It doesn't matter if EM are unoriginal, because Daedalus didn't accuse them of that. He accused them of stealing, which they didn't.

Sabretooth1
29th Aug 2009, 08:08
Hmm, in any case, I wouldn't mind an Ergo Proxy influence either, the series had a beautiful depiction of a utopian/dystopian future, and had a strong Renaissance undercurrent to it. The design of the opening theme is one of my all-time favourites, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oT2W3gaUBc