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Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 01:44
I do think that upgrades are reasonable given the following conditions:
1. The game be designed so that you never need an upgrade to a) proceed forward in story or plot or mission or b) collect all the loot from a level
2. Upgrades be kept in the Thief spirit, they should focus primarily on things a thief would need, like stealth, speed, keeping distance from threats and removal of threats undetected, and secondarily on combat with increased ability to defend or damage. If Garrett is ever walking around with a 2 handed sword or some uber crossbow, it better be to f***ing sell it.
3. A fully upgraded Garrett should still die in full frontal combat against 3 guards on normal, 2 guards on hard and maybe come out with 1 health against 1 guard on expert.

These would be the upgrade choices I would want (though I probably wouldn't use all of them).

If the sword is used:
1. Black Forging 500 gold: Blade is reforged using techniques to make the metal black, meaning no increased visibility while wielded.
2. Slimming 500 gold: The Blade is reforged to be thinner and lighter weight, meaning no speed loss while wielded
3. Disarming teeth 500 gold: Blocking allows the player a split second chance to snap a user's blade out of his hands/ in half, blade does decreased damage.
4. Sharpening 500 gold: Blade does increased damage

Swords can only have black forging with any one advantage. Disarming teeth don't work on a slimmed or sharpened blade because the teeth would have to be made too thin to be of use or compromise the integrity of the blade. A sharpened and slimmed blade would be too thin to have enough weight to do damage and would compromise the integrity of the blade. These balances make sense, aside from not making the weapon uber.

If dagger is used:
1. Spring Blade 200 gold: the blade is in the hilt in front of a powerful spring, allowing it to be perfectly concealed even while wielded so no one is alerted because you have it out.
2. Resevoir 100 gold: Hilt now is hollow, and when the blade is thrust into someone it pushes in a side valve, allowing a resevoir to inject some contents into the open wound.
RESEVOIR CAN CONTAIN ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:
Corrosive Acid: Mainly used for backstabbing machines, can be refilled from vials (50 gold each)
Holy Water: Mainly used for backstabbing undead, can be refilled from flasks or fonts
Paralyzing poison: Makes a backstab silent by immobilizing him (his diaphragm) can be refilled from vials (150 gold each)

It's either-or, as both cannot fill the hilt. Essentially the dagger becomes a blackjack for undead and machines when used with the resevoir.

Blackjack upgrades:
1. Lengthening (100 gold): makes the blackjack another 4 inches longer, allowing for a slightly more distanced knockout.
2. Black Ink (100 gold): the blackjack is filled with lead pellets, and the empty space is filled with black ink, and it's leather has small holes put into the front of it, allowing one to blackjack turrets/cameras and blackout their eyes. Meaning a silent removal of the threat, as opposed to a fire arrow or something else noisy.
3. Extra lead (100 gold): puts a larger amount of lead in the head of the blackjack, meaning a more powerful penetrating hit. This results in a slightly slower swing, but more damage in combat, along with the ability to knock out opponents with heavy helmets on.

Lengthening and extra lead are incompatible, due to compromising the integrity of the handle.

Bow upgrades:
1. Silk strings (100 gold): The twang of your bow is now inaudible
2. Sight pins (50 gold): Bow sight now has pins marking different distances up to 50 yards
3. Higher pull weight (100gp/10lbs increase gold, linear price increase): Decreases arc, increases damage, decreases pull time before atrophy. Starting at 30 lb pull, up to 70lb pull, only can be bought 10lbs at a time. So total from 30 to 70lb is 1000gp total.
4. Compound pully system (750gp): Pully system decreases draw weight at full draw to half, (i.e. you pull back 70, but you only hold 35lb) allowing for you to hold a readied shot longer (at 25lbs or less a shot can be held forever)

Pins change with increased draw weight. These are the main upgrades I would want because I love archery (I admit I have an extreme bias towards it, even though I also fence).

Yotun
7th Jun 2009, 01:57
No, no upgrades whatsoever. We've had this argument before. Thief is not an RPG, its not meant to have upgradable weapons, your tools are not meant to get better, and you should not be able to get 'better' at doing something other than by your own abilities.

It's not about turning Garret into a fighter!!! Garrett is not the 'Thief' class in an RPG that gets better at his 'thieving' by spending money, or experience or whatever at 'upgrading' his weapons. Your sword at mission 1 should be just as effective as your sword at the final mission. Your bow at mission 1 should be just as effective as your bow in the final mission. Look at your suggestions! Take 'Silk Strings' as a bow upgrade - it means that, with all this options, I will finish the game at the final mission knowing that in absolute terms Garrett is more 'powerful' in terms of his thieving than he was at level 1!

Thief is a first person sneaking adventure, its not an RPG and I don't want to have to bother with choosing upgrades from option screen and all of that. Thief is a very -pure- experience at what it does. You have a specific toolbox of tools and abilities, and your challenge comes from knowing how to use it.

theBlackman
7th Jun 2009, 02:15
Agreed.

Hype really doesn't get it and should stick to Doom, Diablo, or whatever other mindless pursuits he/she/it engages in.

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 02:20
No, no upgrades whatsoever. We've had this argument before. Thief is not an RPG, its not meant to have upgradable weapons, your tools are not meant to get better, and you should not be able to get 'better' at doing something other than by your own abilities.

It's not about turning Garret into a fighter!!! Garrett is not the 'Thief' class in an RPG that gets better at his 'thieving' by spending money, or experience or whatever at 'upgrading' his weapons. Your sword at mission 1 should be just as effective as your sword at the final mission. Your bow at mission 1 should be just as effective as your bow in the final mission. Look at your suggestions! Take 'Silk Strings' as a bow upgrade - it means that, with all this options, I will finish the game at the final mission knowing that in absolute terms Garrett is more 'powerful' in terms of his thieving than he was at level 1!

Thief is a first person sneaking adventure, its not an RPG and I don't want to have to bother with choosing upgrades from option screen and all of that. Thief is a very -pure- experience at what it does. You have a specific toolbox of tools and abilities, and your challenge comes from knowing how to use it.

did you read the stipulations I gave? The fact that they shouldn't be required to move on in the game, they should be thiefly upgrades, and they shouldn't turn Garrett into a fighting machine? I'm not arguing to give Garrett a 2 handed bloot letting sword and an automatic repeating crossbow, I'm really not, because those serve no good purpose other than to fight and kill other people. The upgrading I'm talking about is the kind a thief would desire, not a fighter. Upgrading in no way shape or form would detract from the player needing to be the one to become more skilled. The player still needs to learn to sneak, to learn to time guards patrols and what distance is close enough to reach something while leaning, etc etc. That's why I suggested WEAPONS upgrades, not just general upgrades. Suggesting he get sponge soles for his shoes so he's silent even on metal or tile is the kind of upgrading your talking about, where it makes the player not have to play the game. Giving him a magical self camouflaging cloak and what not. I don't understand your argument if the upgrades are the kind I described.

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 02:23
Agreed.

Hype really doesn't get it and should stick to Doom, Diablo, or whatever other mindless pursuits he/she/it engages in.

No I don't, because I don't see how it's detrimental to the game given the qualifications I made. It's not making the player not have to sneak anymore, or not beware what surface they walk on. The thieving part of the game, sneaking, the need to explore, to find loot, to read where things are, to time guards' patrols, nearly everything that (at least I hold) is core to thief gameplay is left unaffected. What is the horrid sin that as you said, I cannot see here?

Yotun
7th Jun 2009, 03:31
did you read the stipulations I gave? The fact that they shouldn't be required to move on in the game, they should be thiefly upgrades, and they shouldn't turn Garrett into a fighting machine? I'm not arguing to give Garrett a 2 handed bloot letting sword and an automatic repeating crossbow, I'm really not, because those serve no good purpose other than to fight and kill other people. The upgrading I'm talking about is the kind a thief would desire, not a fighter. Upgrading in no way shape or form would detract from the player needing to be the one to become more skilled. The player still needs to learn to sneak, to learn to time guards patrols and what distance is close enough to reach something while leaning, etc etc. That's why I suggested WEAPONS upgrades, not just general upgrades. Suggesting he get sponge soles for his shoes so he's silent even on metal or tile is the kind of upgrading your talking about, where it makes the player not have to play the game. Giving him a magical self camouflaging cloak and what not. I don't understand your argument if the upgrades are the kind I described.

Yes I've read your stipulations. And you have to understand that the problem we have is not about the possibility of making Garret into a better fighter. Its about turning him to a better THIEF. As I said, the game is NOT meant to be the 'Thief' class in an RPG, where you can upgrade your 'thieving' abilities and become better at thieving activities. An increase in ability should only come from the player becoming more skilful in understanding how to use the abilities he has and the tools available to him, not by giving him the option of making any of those tools technically more efficient in an absolute way.

I do NOT want my sword to become more 'invinsible' if I spend money on it. I do NOT want my bow to become more silent, or my blackjack to have a greater reach if I spend money on it. I want ALL my tools to be just as effective in the first mission I use them, as in the last mission I use them because THAT'S the kind of game Thief is, those are its gameplay dynamics and the genre the brand was established in. Its a first person sneak adventure, NOT an RPG. I do not want to have option screens, or upgrades, or improvement purchases at stores or anything of the sort - its unrealistic, its artificial, and it breaks away from the type of game Thief is. I do not want to load my game at mission 13 and find a Thief who somehow has more efficient tools, than if I load my game at mission 2, and I do not want to start a new game thinking to myself 'I can get Garrett to his full potential my mission 5 once I've purchased the sword and blackjack upgrades'. This does not change if its possible you can complete the game without getting the upgrades - in the end it will just mean the game gets too easy for those who choose the upgrades, and the whole thing just becomes a messed up tacked on game mechanic. What's the point of having the options if you expect the designers not to take them into consideration when thinking of the challenges they'll be putting in the levels?

But at the end of the day, its just a gameplay dynamic that does not belong in the Thief franchise. In Thief I do not want to 'develop' a character, OR his arsenal. I want to slip into the character's skin, and use the tools of that character in a variety of missions.

Look, I get that you want this gameplay dynamic and its your opinion and you've got every right to express it, BUT I personally do NOT agree with you. Its not that I don't understand your suggestions, I do understand them perfectly, and I do not want them implemented. So lets see what the poll says, but don't assume that those who answer no do so because they don't understand what you are proposing.

MasterTaffer
7th Jun 2009, 03:39
I'de rather get better with the tools I have then waste money on upgrading them.

So I vote no.

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 03:48
Yes I've read your stipulations. And you have to understand that the problem we have is not about the possibility of making Garret into a better fighter. Its about turning him to a better 'Thief'. As I said, the game is NOT meant to be the 'Thief' class in an RPG, where you can upgrade your 'thieving' abilities.

I do NOT want my sword to become more 'invinsible' if I spend money on it. I do NOT want my bow to become more silent, or my blackjack to have a greater reach if I spend money on it. I want ALL my tools to be just as effective in the first mission I use them, as in the last mission I use them because THAT'S the kind of game Thief is, those are its gameplay dynamics and the genre the brand was established in. Its a first person sneak adventure, NOT an RPG. I do not want to have option screens, or upgrades, or improvement purchases at stores or anything of the sort - its unrealistic, its artificial, and it breaks away from the type of game Thief is. There is no difference at the same time if you can complete the game without getting the upgrades - in the end it will just mean the game gets too easy for those who choose the upgrades, and the whole thing just becomes a messed up tacked on game mechanic. What's the point of having the options if you expect the designers not to take them into consideration when thinking of the challenges they'll be putting in the levels?

But at the end of the day, its just a gameplay dynamic that does not belong in the Thief franchise. In Thief I do not want to 'develop' a character, OR his arsenal. I want to slip into the character's skin, and use the tools of that character in a variety of missions.

Look, I get that you want this gameplay dynamic and its your opinion and you've got every right to express it, BUT I personally do NOT agree with you. Its not that I don't understand your suggestions, I do understand them perfectly, and I do not want them implemented. So lets see what the poll says, but don't assume that those who answer no do so because they don't understand what you are proposing.

I guess I just see thieving abilities separately from you. Garrett's abilities are already unmatched, there is nothing that can improve except what he uses. Garrett to me, would be the same skilled thief at the end of the game if I bought these upgrades, because nothing about him has changed, he's still fundamentally the best thief to ever walk the streets of the city. Your tools are already effective... your blackjack knocks people out, your sword/dagger still kills people/undead and cuts banners and what not, your bow still shoots arrows pretty far. If you're opposed to options screens then should there not be an equipment purchase screen before levels? Why is upgrading equipment unrealistic? It's not a breakaway from thief so much as it's simply something new. It doesn't betray the core game mechanics, but is simply something that's on the sidelines for those who want to use it. The upgrades would be more of a convenience thing. Yes it would make the game easier, but it would never make it any easier than someone who mastered their skills. It doesn't matter if you can shoot the lit torch from a quarter mile away when someone can just relight it. And it doesn't matter that your blackjack is able to knock out the helmeted guard if you can't get close.

Mainly my point in having weapon customization is it's a selling point that may influence whether or not someone buys a game. When someone picks up a box they look on the back and see "Weapon customization, Cool" and go buy it. We are the generation of customization. Everything from phones to computers, clothes to cars, and even the television we watch (thanks to DVR) can be customized. It actually matters to some people.

If you want to challenge yourself to playing the game without upgrading, I commend you on that. But like I said, other people might enjoy the customization, the extra power they exert by controlling at least that part of their experience. Really, even if it only influenced 1/5 people who picked up the box to purchase, I think it would be worth it.

theBlackman
7th Jun 2009, 04:24
You still don't get it. NEW is not an improvement. The game(s) as they stand are EXACTLY what they should be.

A new story, a new "Quest" more ventures, but not a NEW UPGRADED GAME. If you want that, play FMs, many of them offer the player much of what you suggest.

The equipment is adequate. What you do with them is where the "inventive" player IMPROVES Garrett and the game.

As for your argument about "attracting" new players. The DEVS and the company do want that. But I hope not at the point of deconstructing or ruining the best game of its type ever made.

Here is a game that is over 10 years old that is still viable, attracting new players all the time, and except for the TDS fiasco has maintained a loyal player base for longer than nearly every game on the market. The reasons have been stated by many posters in nearly every thread on this T4 forum, as well as those on the TTLG "Anticipation" forum.

You are entitled to your opinion (as I am mine, and those who agree or disagree with both of us), but you have reached the point of "BEATING A DEAD HORSE". More argument from you, or should I say "affirmative" dissertation is boring, to say the least.

But help yourself.

Shadow Blade
7th Jun 2009, 08:32
I chose no because personally I wouldnt use most of those upgrades to begin with. Maybe they can add more thiefy tools though :/ nothing to extravigant though

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 09:08
I chose no because I'd like to spend money making the game harder, not easier. :p

I think game designers have missed the point in today's games. The games give you better equipment and abilities as the game progresses, like new weapons and gadgets, while the AI doesn't get any better. Just like TDS: You have immortal opponents in the last levels, and then the game give you something that kills them in one hit? Why?! :mad2:

I recently played through "Assault on Dark Athena" and the first half was beautiful. Vin Diesel sneaking through shadows and introducing steel to internal organs, breaking lights to create more darkness and so on. But then the game started giving him guns and it got boring and stupid. I always try to use the guns in the minimum but sometimes it doesn't work.

Vae
7th Jun 2009, 09:22
You still don't get it. NEW is not an improvement. The game(s) as they stand are EXACTLY what they should be.

A new story, a new "Quest" more ventures, but not a NEW UPGRADED GAME. If you want that, play FMs, many of them offer the player much of what you suggest.

The equipment is adequate. What you do with them is where the "inventive" player IMPROVES Garrett and the game.

As for your argument about "attracting" new players. The DEVS and the company do want that. But I hope not at the point of deconstructing or ruining the best game of its type ever made.

Here is a game that is over 10 years old that is still viable, attracting new players all the time, and except for the TDS fiasco has maintained a loyal player base for longer than nearly every game on the market. The reasons have been stated by many posters in nearly every thread on this T4 forum, as well as those on the TTLG "Anticipation" forum.

You are entitled to your opinion (as I am mine, and those who agree or disagree with both of us), but you have reached the point of "BEATING A DEAD HORSE". More argument from you, or should I say "affirmative" dissertation is boring, to say the least.


I agree completely. Having weapon upgrades would go against the THIEF core design philosophy. Again, Hypevosa these sound like really good ideas in another game. That being said, I appreciate your creative efforts.

Vae
7th Jun 2009, 09:29
I chose no because I'd like to spend money making the game harder, not easier. :p

I think game designers have missed the point in today's games. The games give you better equipment and abilities as the game progresses, like new weapons and gadgets, while the AI doesn't get any better. Just like TDS: You have immortal opponents in the last levels, and then the game give you something that kills them in one hit? Why?! :mad2:

I recently played through "Assault on Dark Athena" and the first half was beautiful. Vin Diesel sneaking through shadows and introducing steel to internal organs, breaking lights to create more darkness and so on. But then the game started giving him guns and it got boring and stupid. I always try to use the guns in the minimum but sometimes it doesn't work.

Yes, Garrett should always be struggling to pay the rent and to buy just enough supplies for the next mission. This keeps every thing interesting and engaging.

vowdy
7th Jun 2009, 09:42
upgrading the arrows perhaps. nothing more :/

AbysmalGale
7th Jun 2009, 10:55
I chose "no" because "if it's not broken, don't fix it".

huzi73
7th Jun 2009, 15:42
did you read the stipulations I gave? The fact that they shouldn't be required to move on in the game, they should be thiefly upgrades, and they shouldn't turn Garrett into a fighting machine? I'm not arguing to give Garrett a 2 handed bloot letting sword and an automatic repeating crossbow, I'm really not, because those serve no good purpose other than to fight and kill other people. The upgrading I'm talking about is the kind a thief would desire, not a fighter. Upgrading in no way shape or form would detract from the player needing to be the one to become more skilled. The player still needs to learn to sneak, to learn to time guards patrols and what distance is close enough to reach something while leaning, etc etc. That's why I suggested WEAPONS upgrades, not just general upgrades. Suggesting he get sponge soles for his shoes so he's silent even on metal or tile is the kind of upgrading your talking about, where it makes the player not have to play the game. Giving him a magical self camouflaging cloak and what not. I don't understand your argument if the upgrades are the kind I described.

Well, if your upgrades dont really affect the game/gameplay in a way which enhances the gameplay, whats the point of having them? Besides, all your upgrades do affect either stealth or combat.(the thwang of the bow? Ffs! That wasnt audible in the entire series! More damage, slower swing? The end result of that upgrade STILL ends up encouraging combat). Maybe these ideas will work in Assassins Creed 2. Your suggestion is flawed. When suggestions like these are adhered to, games like TDS are produced.

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2009, 16:46
I don't know If I can bring something to this debate be I won't vote.

I think upgrades for better damage shouldn't appear but Upgrades for using a new tool

I think for
The sword:
Only the black forging should appear

If you want a thiner blade you should replace your sword with a rapier, but it does less damage than the sword but it's faster and lighter.

The blackjack

A "super blackjack" is theoretically a mace, it's heavier and needs a longer time to reach full power, but I'm not certain this is a great thing even if I expect the guards uses an heavy version and us a light version ...

The Bow
I just have two upgrades

Endurance, this gives you the ability to keep you bow fully charged much longer
Eagle eye, this gives you the zooming ability from Thief 2

I think Upgrades should be limited but I'm not sure some players would even accept this...

Vae
7th Jun 2009, 16:54
I think Upgrades should be limited but I'm not sure some players would even accept this...

And you would be right.

DarthEnder
7th Jun 2009, 17:50
I don't mind weapon upgrades. Because the Thief series has always HAD weapon upgrades. (Constantine's Sword over your regular sword, the Glyph Blackjack over the normal blackjack).

I just don't like the idea of having to buy them. Either make them come automatically as part of the story, or make them well hidden secrets like the bow upgrade.

It's as Hype said, people didn't really read the poll before they voted.

News flash folks, if you didn't vote option 2, you voted against Constantine's Sword.

agrash
7th Jun 2009, 17:56
A bow upgrade brings up some memories.. :D

MasterTaffer
7th Jun 2009, 18:00
I don't mind weapon upgrades. Because the Thief series has always HAD weapon upgrades. (Constantine's Sword over your regular sword, the Glyph Blackjack over the normal blackjack).

I just don't like the idea of having to buy them. Either make them come automatically as part of the story, or make them well hidden secrets like the bow upgrade.

It's as Hype said, people didn't really read the poll before they voted.

News flash folks, if you didn't vote option 2, you voted against Constantine's Sword.

Those upgrades are relevant to the stories of their respective games, and therefore I didn't mind.

Caranfin
7th Jun 2009, 18:04
I feel it would just place unnecessary attention to the weapons. No weapon upgrades works fine in the earlier games, so there's no need to have one in the next one. Would just feel unnatural and gimmicky. Besides, most of these things would pretty much require you to buy a completely new weapon anyway.

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 19:07
I still don't understand how it feels unnatural to save money and get better equipment.... Imagine like how you could save money to buy the practice locks in TDS? that didn't feel wierd at all to me... idk.

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2009, 19:27
Arf I failed to encounter the middle point; Upgrades but that doesn't change too much things :( ...

Yotun
7th Jun 2009, 19:31
I still don't understand how it feels unnatural to save money and get better equipment.... Imagine like how you could save money to buy the practice locks in TDS? that didn't feel wierd at all to me... idk.

Because it makes it feel like a video game. Its not like the purchase of this arrow instead of that. Its a case of having a sword and then having a sword+1 which is better in absolute terms to the previous sword.

Why would a master Thief start with 'inferior equipment' and only upgrade in the space of the 10 or so missions the game is bound to have? And don't these upgrades feel 'artificial' anyway, obviously designed for a 'game'?

But in the end of the game, this is not the gameplay that Thief as a game is desgined around. Perhaps another franchise could do something like this, but it does not belong in Thief.

Nate
7th Jun 2009, 19:54
I voted 'NO'. It doesn't make sense for weapons/equipment selections to get more advanced somehow as Garrett goes through the game. It is 'forced' RPG and is so unoriginal I am sick of having to play it in games. Garrett has been a MASTER THIEF for 20 years in the game....it would be worse than silly to pretend he suddenly figures out he can get better equipment at the store.

THAT SAID, I do believe that Garrett should be able to FULLY choose what weapons he wants to bring with him on a mission (or leave behind)....with his choices giving him advantages and disadvantages.

For example, a dagger is weaker than a short sword, but the short sword gives a penalty to stealth (regardless of it is drawn or sheathed).

Or, Garrett can choose to leave both the dagger and short sword behind and gets a tiny stealth bonus for being less encumbered (~5% bonus).

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 20:02
It's the same reason you start out with a jalopy for a car when you're a teenager. (or at least alot of people do). It's because you didn't have the money to begin with, or maybe it was the only place close by that you could buy a car. The only service that has always been available nearly everywhere is prostitution. New services can easily open up, or more specifically open up to the type of crowd garrett is in. You don't always start with the best stuff in life, and you often have to save up or work hard to come to get it.

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 20:04
THAT SAID, I do believe that Garrett should be able to FULLY choose what weapons he wants to bring with him on a mission (or leave behind)....with his choices giving him advantages and disadvantages.

For example, a dagger is weaker than a short sword, but the short sword gives a penalty to stealth (regardless of it is drawn or sheathed).

Or, Garrett can choose to leave both the dagger and short sword behind and gets a tiny stealth bonus for being less encumbered (~5% bonus).

Again, the same argument I've brought up many times in different subjects. I want to play a very hard Thief -game. That's why I would leave the dagger AND the sword home if I could, but if it makes me stealthier, it's like the game makes itself harder for those who want to make it easier and makes itself easier for those who want to make it harder.

Thugo
7th Jun 2009, 20:12
Alright Platinumoxicity...I can agree with what you just said. Short Sword's should give a stealth penalty. Dagger is weaker but no stealth penalty. Leaving both weapons behind just means you don't have either weapon (no bonuses).

I know Nate wants no dagger = a stealth bonus....but I mean even looking at that realistically, a dagger is pretty compact. It wouldn't really have an effect on stealth more than 1% anyway. If you really need that 1% bonus for not having the dagger, then fine, I won't stand in your way.

As for Hypevosa's comment in support of RPG style equipment levelling, Garrett isn't a teenager starting out in life. Garrett has been at it for 20 years!!!!

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 20:15
Alright Platinumoxicity...I'll meet you halfway. Short Sword give a stealth penalty. Dagger is weaker but no stealth penalty. Leaving both weapons behind just means you don't have either weapon (no bonuses).

As for Hypevosa's comment in support of RPG style equipment levelling, Garrett isn't a teenager starting out in life. Garrett has been at it for 20 years!!!!

Oh, I forgot to accentuate on the "constant penalty" They should only have the penalties when they are drawn, and you shouldn't get any bonuses if you don't take them with you.

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 20:19
Again, the same argument I've brought up many times in different subjects. I want to play a very hard Thief -game. That's why I would leave the dagger AND the sword home if I could, but if it makes me stealthier, it's like the game makes itself harder for those who want to make it easier and makes itself easier for those who want to make it harder.

I don't think garrett would abandon the dagger or the sword as long as they're utilized well as tools in thief 4, instead of as weapons.

DarthEnder
7th Jun 2009, 20:25
I don't think Garrett would abandon the sword or dagger period, because, once again, there's nothing in the the storyline that actually suggests that Garrett isn't a killer. If anything, the cutscenes show that Garrett IS a murderer.

But as usually, elitests like to try and push their super-high difficulty setting limitations on all players.

Nate
7th Jun 2009, 20:26
Ok Thugo, I can see your point, I can live with only a 1% stealth bonus for leaving both the short sword AND the dagger behind while going on missions.

As for Platinumoxicity's comment about only drawn weapons giving penalties. I think the dagger should have no penalty while sheathed, and the short sword should still have a small penalty while sheathed. Once drawn, both weapons would incur further penalties.

And Hypevosa, I like the idea of the dagger and sword being usable as tools.

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 23:34
I don't think Garrett would abandon the sword or dagger period, because, once again, there's nothing in the the storyline that actually suggests that Garrett isn't a killer. If anything, the cutscenes show that Garrett IS a murderer.

But as usually, elitests like to try and push their super-high difficulty setting limitations on all players.

Oh, sorry I didn't present my opinion too clearly. I meant that I personally would leave both blades at home, if there was that option in the start of the mission. I didn't mean that they should remove the sword and dagger altogether. ;)

But I still stand behind the opinion about the "equalization". No stealth penalties caused by encumberance or sheated weapons. The ones who want to play the hard way without killing enemies don't want their job to get any easier with stealth upgrades. Also those who want to go around stabbing everyone don't want their job to get harder with constant stealth penalties. Equalizing all difficulties into one medium difficulty by these changes makes the game too hard for noobs and too easy for pros.

Nate
7th Jun 2009, 23:56
Yeah, but the problem is that it is too easy to sneak up on your victim, THEN pull out your dagger or sword = stealth penalty of an unsheathed weapon is pointless.

Where if Garrett is carrying a short sword, it would be possible for the scarbard to scrape against a surface or brush against his bow or loot bag. The short sword should have a slight stealth penalty sheathed or drawn.

theBlackman
8th Jun 2009, 00:32
Not forgetting that there already is a penalty. If you have your sword out, and on some occasions your bow, you become more visible.

Nate
8th Jun 2009, 01:03
Yep, I hope they continue to do that with Thi4f.

I am just saying that IF you can choose to carry the short sword OR the dagger, I would like it if Garrett suffered and ADDITIONAL stealth penalty for simply having the short sword. So the sword would give a 'cumbersome' stealth penalty for simply being on Garrett's person AND would give an additional stealth penalty when drawn.

It would be the price a player pays for choosing to be a warrior-thief.

Hypevosa
8th Jun 2009, 01:05
I still don't understand the logic behind a 4 lbs sword causing someone to become encumbered... or the reason you'd want to penalize someone for being cautious (as a thief should probably be).

Having a sword =/= using it. I might want to just pry some planks off a door so I can gain side entry.

Nate
8th Jun 2009, 07:37
It isn't the weight of the sword that is the problem for the thief (although it does add to the total). It is having a 2'+ piece of metal strapped to the thief that is the problem.

Regardless of where he carries it, there is a chance it will hook up on or rub up against stuff. This happens VERY easily. The end result is usually noise or awkwardness while you have to untangle yourself.

This is where the stealth penalty would come in.

Hypevosa
8th Jun 2009, 07:40
A thief would simply push his hilt forward to make the sword parallel with the ground... it isn't that difficult. I agree a penalty should be there for drawing it, but just having the tool on your person shouldn't hurt the player - pulling it out in the wrong circumstances should. I don't want to be penalized for carrying around my banner cutter and plank breaker.

mister_riz
8th Jun 2009, 08:22
God no, retarded idea.

Platinumoxicity
8th Jun 2009, 08:42
It isn't the weight of the sword that is the problem for the thief (although it does add to the total). It is having a 2'+ piece of metal strapped to the thief that is the problem.

Regardless of where he carries it, there is a chance it will hook up on or rub up against stuff. This happens VERY easily. The end result is usually noise or awkwardness while you have to untangle yourself.

This is where the stealth penalty would come in.

Again you're trying to use too much realism to remove a feature that worked fine in the first 2 games. No stealth penalty for sheated blades please. How exactly do you think making the sword have instant penalties when carried would make the game better for you? Or do you just want the game to become harder for others?

Moon Hoplite
8th Jun 2009, 12:30
It would be nice to have a uniqe weapon, like some magic sword/dagger/bow... not too many things...

ChrisDS
8th Jun 2009, 19:58
I would only assume a master thief would have some pretty good equipment that he uses all the time so I see no reason that Garrett would need to go buy a better bow or sword. Thief is such a unique game that it is set in what would normally be a role playing environment yet it broke all the typical RPG rules.

A sword is a sword and a bow is a bow... lets say Garrett already did his shopping!!! it's time for him to goto WORK!

PLEASE NO WEAPONS UPGRADES EVER! I love how this is a skill based game and as we the player get better... the tasks and NPC get more difficult.

Nate
8th Jun 2009, 22:47
Again you're trying to use too much realism to remove a feature that worked fine in the first 2 games. No stealth penalty for sheated blades please. How exactly do you think making the sword have instant penalties when carried would make the game better for you? Or do you just want the game to become harder for others?

VERY good point! Like I've said before, I'll listen to well constructed arguments. If the logic is sound, then I'll change my position accordingly.

So, AS LONG AS THE DEVS LET US CHOOSE what equipment to bring with us/leave at home, it doesn't really matter if the short sword has penalties or not (at least for me).

I'll always leave it behind and play Thi4f in a more realistic way than others.

Hell, even if the devs force me to take a short sword on missions...nobody says I have to use it. I could just pretend it isn't there.


A thief would simply push his hilt forward to make the sword parallel with the ground... it isn't that difficult. I agree a penalty should be there for drawing it, but just having the tool on your person shouldn't hurt the player - pulling it out in the wrong circumstances should. I don't want to be penalized for carrying around my banner cutter and plank breaker.

Hehe, okay, so now your sword is pointing out directly behind you 1 1/2'....you really think you can sneak along corridors, hug walls, push your way through bushes, climb balconies, roll around and so on without that getting in your way and making noise???

Seriously, as long as the devs give me the choice to leave the sword behind, I don't really care if you want Garrett to have a 'scabbard of holding' or not. Load him up with as much magic equipment as you want, just please let me play Thi4f hardcore.

Hypevosa
8th Jun 2009, 23:15
Hehe, okay, so now your sword is pointing out directly behind you 1 1/2'....you really think you can sneak along corridors, hug walls, push your way through bushes, climb balconies, roll around and so on without that getting in your way and making noise???

Yes, because it's under the cloak I'm using. Now the cloak itself might present trouble in bushes... and Garrett doesn't roll around in ANY of the games so far, and if he's rolling it should be from a drop at a height where everyone's heard him hit the ground anyways. I think If I'd been using the thing since my early 20s it would be second nature to keep it from making noise. Now someone might bump into it since when I'm crouching my player model is now a foot longer than usual... but other than that there wouldn't be problems until I tried to go into a place where they wouldn't allow swords.

Nate
8th Jun 2009, 23:28
Yeah, I would imagine that Garrett would be very good at minimizing the stealth penalty of using the short sword.....in fact, if you look at some of my earlier posts, I was only asking for a tiny percentage penalty for the short sword.

But, like I said, as long as we can choose to leave it behind, I'll be happy....even if I can't leave it behind, I'll just pretend I don't have it.

Hypevosa
8th Jun 2009, 23:41
Yeah, I would imagine that Garrett would be very good at minimizing the stealth penalty of using the short sword.....in fact, if you look at some of my earlier posts, I was only asking for a tiny percentage penalty for the short sword.

But, like I said, as long as we can choose to leave it behind, I'll be happy....even if I can't leave it behind, I'll just pretend I don't have it.

I don't know how they'll implement the light gem... if they actually use a 100% scale or not. I know in all the previous games it only had (I think maximum) around 10 or 12 shades. I do know I like the old light gem ALOT better than the new one... it turned a muddy green brown and was wierd looking. I'd rather have the black to white shift thanks...

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
9th Jun 2009, 05:59
I'd actually like to try playing without the light gem if the game will let me.


Oh, sorry I didn't present my opinion too clearly. I meant that I personally would leave both blades at home, if there was that option in the start of the mission. I didn't mean that they should remove the sword and dagger altogether. ;)

But I still stand behind the opinion about the "equalization". No stealth penalties caused by encumberance or sheated weapons. The ones who want to play the hard way without killing enemies don't want their job to get any easier with stealth upgrades. Also those who want to go around stabbing everyone don't want their job to get harder with constant stealth penalties. Equalizing all difficulties into one medium difficulty by these changes makes the game too hard for noobs and too easy for pros.

agreed

As for weapon upgrades, I don't much care for it. Thief just isn't that deep of a game and this feature would seem kinda pointless. Everybody would just buy the upgrades, you wouldn't really have to think about it. Besides, I don't think the upgrades seem to change gameplay enough to be meaningful. Better versions of Items though, maybe. Like a 'mega moss' arrow or a longer rope arrow. More expensive than their normal counterparts, but may be more useful in some situations.

I'd like for the game to have more purchasable stuff for the players who generally don't use items (or maybe just a better selection of items?). Like mission hints/tips (that I can read before the mission!). Hmm, here's an example, let's say I buy (and read!) a tip that says there's a window I can get into, but it's really high up. So I shell out for the longer rope arrow and go for that window. Whatever, I've not many ideas, just playing along.

jtr7
9th Jun 2009, 06:05
The older games' weapon selections were geared toward the mission ahead, with a couple of items to take a gamble on. The briefing would clue the player in to what was probably the best choice. THe items available were just what Garrett needed and no new weapons were ever necessary.

kaekaelyn
9th Jun 2009, 06:09
This idea would push Thief in a direction I'm not comfortable with. Sorry, I have to vote no.

jtr7
9th Jun 2009, 06:16
The only upgrades should be subtle expanded use, and not even necessary, and certainly not feel like a power-up. Vine arrows for rope arrows is a good example. Being able to kill rust mites or shatter statues was almost embarrassing as upgrades go.

theBlackman
9th Jun 2009, 06:23
[...] Like mission hints/tips (that I can read before the mission!). Hmm, here's an example, let's say I buy (and read!) a tip that says there's a window I can get into, but it's really high up. So I shell out for the longer rope arrow and go for that window. Whatever, I've not many ideas, just playing along.

You really think these out before you post don't you? To read a mission tip before the mission means you have started play. The original setup about tips during load out should prevail. Which means: you CANNOT READ MISSION TIPS YOU BUY UNTIL YOU ARE IN THE MISSION.
Therefore, you would not know that you need a longer rope until you have purchased all your equipment and left the loadout screen.

Why not buy a loot location list and a full walkthrough while you are at it.

Good thinking. Keep it up, it amuses me.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 06:40
Actually, I think that tips should be bought and instantly deducted from your loot permanently ... that way people don't just buy tips, go into the mission, read them, and restart the level and buy other things. I think that's largely why they were abandoned in TDS.

theBlackman
9th Jun 2009, 07:13
Actually, I think that tips should be bought and instantly deducted from your loot permanently ... that way people don't just buy tips, go into the mission, read them, and restart the level and buy other things. I think that's largely why they were abandoned in TDS.


You are probably correct. But that's their choice just as your "options" on a dozen things you have posted would be according to you.

Those who do this just miss the thrill of the game. The briefings could give you a mild hint about a "High window" or exotic beasties without ruining the loadout sequence, just as Bonehoard mentions the undead, and Cragscleft mentions the abandoned lower levels.

If a person chooses to "cheat" in that manner that's their choice. Just as most of the unnecessary options you mention would be at the choice of the player.

Not to mention that all the crap options people are asking for would burn up uncounted hours of game development and provide little in the way of game play improvement.

The sentence above is not, nor should it be construed as a slam at you. Your opinions are just as valid as any other. It's your unrelenting pressuring other posters to agree that is annoying. And that last is only my opinion.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 07:18
I just like to make people question their own positions, thus strengthening their beliefs or changing them to ones that they can defend more resolutely. I don't mind if people disagree with me, so much as I want them to question why they disagree at all. Sometimes I've even made people who have the same view as me question their standpoint. Vae called me contrarian, and it's kinda true :) but it's all meant in good spirit.

An example of a hint that would have helped before the mission started would be the one at the Bank in TMA, which talks about the intense number of tile floors... which would have been a nice hint to buy more moss arrows :D

Nate
9th Jun 2009, 07:37
Hmmm, to be fair, how hard could it be to have the load out screen (if we are going back to it) have a tips section, that you can read for a price, and then continue on to choosing your equipment?

The idea that Garrett would buy/bribe a tip from someone without knowing what it is and then only read it once the mission starts = a bit silly.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
9th Jun 2009, 08:34
Hmmm, to be fair, how hard could it be to have the load out screen (if we are going back to it) have a tips section, that you can read for a price, and then continue on to choosing your equipment?

The idea that Garrett would buy/bribe a tip from someone without knowing what it is and then only read it once the mission starts = a bit silly.

yes, I didn't understand why I had to be standing in the level to actually read the tip.


You really think these out before you post don't you? To read a mission tip before the mission means you have started play. The original setup about tips during load out should prevail. Which means: you CANNOT READ MISSION TIPS YOU BUY UNTIL YOU ARE IN THE MISSION.
Therefore, you would not know that you need a longer rope until you have purchased all your equipment and left the loadout screen.

Why not buy a loot location list and a full walkthrough while you are at it.

Good thinking. Keep it up, it amuses me.

? Wow, wtf. I think you were just saying that you preferred not being able to read tips until you're standing in a level. I can see that you very much preferred it that way. That's fine buddy. If a tip told me something that might influence my item selection, then I'd like to be able to read it right after purchase, but that's just me. Calm down.

It also seems that you think I wanted to purchase info on where all the loot is and how to beat the level or something. It's a simple little tip dude. Just something for my loot money. As is I don't really purchase any equipment, but I always purchased the tips. Didn't care how much they were either. If a tip were to mention something I should know during loadout, I'd like to know during loadout. It was just a silly little idea, don't take 'stuff' so seriously.

They could very well keep the 'read tips once you're standing in the level' thing or even remove tips altogether, I don't care. Hell, they could remove briefings entirely and remove my light gem and ban knockouts and being seen=instafail. I would be cool with that. Don't make it sound like I want an easy ass game, I don't. I want a harder game. That thing that I mentioned was just an idea to get me to actually spend Garretts money. I take it you hated the tips? I liked how a tip might tell me that there may be valuables in so and so's part of Building A. Sure I would've gone through the whole place anyway, but it gave me something to look forward to.


You are probably correct. But that's their choice just as your "options" on a dozen things you have posted would be according to you.

Those who do this just miss the thrill of the game. The briefings could give you a mild hint about a "High window" or exotic beasties without ruining the loadout sequence, just as Bonehoard mentions the undead, and Cragscleft mentions the abandoned lower levels.

If a person chooses to "cheat" in that manner that's their choice. Just as most of the unnecessary options you mention would be at the choice of the player.

Not to mention that all the crap options people are asking for would burn up uncounted hours of game development and provide little in the way of game play improvement.

I never cheated a tip. Yes the briefings could do all that, but if the briefings were a bit more vague I wouldn't mind paying for a little clarification. I hope that makes sense, you are too damn sensitive. I can say something stupid on this beach anytime I want.

How about having all the guards and entities around me show up on a 'radar' as blips? That would be a good upgrade. :whistle:

ugh I can't help myself.... theBlackman, **** YOU. You have such a bad attitude around here. I don't mind you slamming the truly horrible ideas, but to see you freak out about a small thing that I said, that was annoying. Now if I started a thread about the tip idea and really said how great it was and how it should be in the game, yeah, I wouldn't mind you slamming my post then. I don't even mind you saying it's a bad idea, but to go out and just say I'm a cheater who wants an easy game, that was just low. **** you.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 08:56
That's how I feel. He keeps belittling me and insinuating I'm not a fan of the thief series, and that I'm trying to transform it into something else. I have alot of ideas, and no, not all of them are great. But I wouldn't even propose them if I thought that they were in the slightest contrary to what should be in a thief game.


Hype really doesn't get it and should stick to Doom, Diablo, or whatever other mindless pursuits he/she/it engages in.

This is what I hate the most. It's not a simple comment it's an insinuation that's meant to be hurtful and shut me up, and to completely discredit anything I say. It basically says "He's not a real thief fan, anything he says is crap and he should go play other games". Really, I wouldn't be here if I didn't love the game. I prescribe to the ECA newsletter, and the instant I saw the thing about thief 4 I clicked on it and was led here, and I joined INSTANTLY (something I normally don't do) because I loved this series, and because I wanted to be part of making the next game as amazing, popular, and well received as it deserves to be. YES, I engage in some mindless pursuit, and I own a console, but that doesn't mean that you love this series A GOD DAMNED BIT more than I do. Let your superiority complex take the back seat. Like doomy said, sometimes you're justified in your response. If someone comes on this forum and suggests that Garrett should get an invisibility cloak, or something like that, which actually would attack the core mechanic of the game (stealth), then we'll ALL probably flame them off the forums, but aside from that you have no right to talk about people being cheaters, or not fans of the game, or that they should go play other games. Really, get off your high horse.

theBlackman
9th Jun 2009, 09:04
No one accused you of being a cheater. But to quote Shakespeare, "methinks thou dost protest too much.

And I suggest, politely, that you moderate your responses. True, the filters handle it, but a Mod, other than myself might not think that's enough.

The briefings and the loadouts told you what the "tips" referred to. So if it was a map, you opened it in game. If it was a hint about something, you could find it yourself in game or, buy the tip/map and make it easier.

If I were a theif, and if I planned a job, I would of course, get all the info I could before I attempted the "job". That includes buying information and integrating it into my plan. Common sense. But as far as this game series, I would much prefer that such information be included in the briefing in hints rather than flatout "Do it this way".

But then that's my opinion.

And again, no one specifically mentioned that you (or any other poster) cheated. Merely expressed the opinion that using the tip in game and then backing into a restart, was a form there of that did not really help the player enjoy the intent of the game.

But if the shoe fits, put it on.

ToMegaTherion
9th Jun 2009, 09:17
It's quite clearly that Doomy's idea is not in any way controversial. If theBlackman disagrees, he should write a sensible critique. Note: allcaps is not equivalent to a sensible critique.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
9th Jun 2009, 09:32
If I were a theif, and if I planned a job, I would of course, get all the info I could before I attempted the "job". That includes buying information and integrating it into my plan. Common sense. But as far as this game series, I would much prefer that such information be included in the briefing in hints rather than flatout "Do it this way".

But then that's my opinion.

I would've preferred that response in the first place. I took offense to your post because of the attitude. Heck man, I didn't even think my post out. I really just wanted to express that I didn't have much to spend Garrett's money on and I thought more hints might be neat. I also wanted to say how I would prefer reading the tips right away if they told me anything I should know that would influence my item selection. The example was kinda just thrown together because of that and I was thinking of a way to actually use a 'long rope arrow'. Whatever, forget about the idea. I don't much care for it either. I would like more hints though, of some sort, not flatout telling me what to do, but just telling me something interesting. Do you know what I mean? I can understand if you would prefer it all in the briefing.

I'm not interested in cheating or walkthroughs. If people cheat with the hints (buying then restarting) that's their problem. If somebody wants to quicksave every little moment, that's their choice too. I don't think hints should be done away with just because they might be easy to cheat.


"Why not buy a loot location list and a full walkthrough while you are at it.

Good thinking. Keep it up, it amuses me."


That stuff got to me man, sorry. While you may not have actually called me a cheater, I felt like you were insinuating it.

The original setup about tips during load out should prevail. Which means: you CANNOT READ MISSION TIPS YOU BUY UNTIL YOU ARE IN THE MISSION.
And it felt meaner with all the caps you used in the post. You seemed to be telling me that it should be that way. Really man, can you just tone it down and simply say you disagree and why something should or shouldn't be this or that way? That's the whole point of these ideas, we talk about how they might work in the game and why they would or wouldn't work. I wish you wouldn't come on so strong the way you tend to, even more so I wish you wouldn't say things that could easily be taken as an insult.

I thought the censors were enough, I'll erase some of those waggy finger smileys if you think it's best, but only some....

btw, I happen to enjoy Diablo 2 to this day. And I loved the doom games back in the day, Doom 3 was disappointing though.. Jeez, now I know how the console gamers feel.

ToMegaTherion
9th Jun 2009, 09:35
Don't edit that rant, Doomy, it was really funny. One just reaches the end of a fairly waspish but generally OK post and then suddenly all hell breaks loose.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
9th Jun 2009, 09:37
lol sorry but I did. I kept the point though with 'waggy finger-you'.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 09:41
yeah, theblackman just ignores everything I say at this point

huzi73
9th Jun 2009, 10:30
NOTE: Everybody take lesson from this. If you have a point, say it, dont insult anyone or get personal in any way. English was one of two language subjects back in my school days, and my country has 11 (eleven!) official languages. So I hate it how people constantly criticise my errors. Please pm me if you have any corrections. Making remarks about my typos is off topic, unless its a typo thread.(and I use an obsolete phone to post usually)

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 10:34
Wow huzi, your english is pretty damn good. I didn't have the slightest inkling that you weren't a native speaker.

Alex50
9th Jun 2009, 11:09
In the previous games there was a theme modernization of the equipment. The breaking of doors in TDP is accessible from 4 missions and in TMA from 2 missions. The access to gas arrows became possible to middle of game. More modernization became possible in TDS - glove, blackjack against statues, bow against the bugs and marked corners. The sole modernization of the weapon is replacement usual sword on sword Constantine. I not against modernization of clothes and weapon, but owe it is connected with storyline. If you worry about superfluous money, make a children's shelter where it is possible to endow money. Let children in the beginning of game there will be poor and patients, and in the end healthy and thick.

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 11:12
I actually kinda like that idea... I'm running around with 20 grand right now in TDS, and have no where I would want to spend it all...

ToMegaTherion
9th Jun 2009, 11:37
Excess money should be used to buy your own mansion, hire guards, set up their patrols, buy traps, export the level and see if other taffers can rob it :D

Alex50
9th Jun 2009, 12:17
Garrett does not steal from greed. It either call to his professionalism or vital necessity for a survival of city. Probably many buyers краденного have become rich (usual arrow at the price of a jewel)

theBlackman
9th Jun 2009, 19:24
DoomyDoomyDoomDoom

I also enjoy Diablo. But Thief ain't Diablo. Which of course you know.

Flashart
10th Jun 2009, 07:13
I'd like to see something done with, if not all, at least some of the cash from each mission. Whether it's spending it all before each mission or letting it accumulate to afford higher priced gear later on. I like the idea of assembling my own kit before each mission.
As far as tips go I'm not sure, if there's something you "need" to know then include that in the briefing. If there's a particular item you need, include that in the level. However, if there was a rumour of a high value "secret" within the level and you wanted to pay cash for that info then fine, although the "secret" would no longer be secret.

huzi73
10th Jun 2009, 13:52
Wow huzi, your english is pretty damn good. I didn't have the slightest inkling that you weren't a native speaker.

Err no, while English wasnt my great grandparents native language, my one grandad, folks and brothers/sister speak it as if its been in our family for generations.

However, I left school before graduating, and even when I was in school, always surpassed my fellow classmates when it came to english.(im not trying to blow my own whistle here....)

And in all honesty, the bulk of what i've learnt, besides the basic, non fancy household english, has been learnt primarily from gaming/reviews/forums etc.

I hardly ever read anything besides the newspaper...:scratch:

TheEye
6th Jul 2009, 10:55
if by upgradable you mean like TDS where the hammers and pagans did it and later the glyph of unbinding the yeah. other wise there is no point

Fatherwoodsie
6th Jul 2009, 18:35
i change my vote to no. but i still think you should be able to pick up weapons of dead gaurds....with all these swords on the ground and nobody notices

CavaliereNero
6th Jul 2009, 22:10
I don't like the idea of upgradable weapons. I wouldn't mind being able to use things I stumble upon during a mission, maybe even retaining them. But a professional thief is a minimalist by nature. He does the job with necessary tools, nothing that would encumber him. Garrett has been using the sword long enough to know how to carry one sheathed without compromising his stealth. He's not a novice that would have it bump into everything, nor would he carry a blinged out scabbard. And while some of his tools seem a little out there, it's a game! Realism isn't as important as gameplay, and unneccesary upgrades would spoil it, I think.

Hypevosa
6th Jul 2009, 23:07
unneccesary upgrades would spoil it, I think.

see, one of my major points in this thread was NECESSARY upgrades would spoil the game. I was attempting to emphasize that an upgrade system where convenience was provided at a steep cost was instead desirable, because it wouldn't neuter the challenge of the game as you progressed. Shooting your arrows with a little less arc does not make the game less challenging. Adding the ability to run around everywhere in your socks would though... I have a graph a somewhere in here of what I believe the impact of upgrades on difficulty should ideally be in thief.

You reward those who explore (I.e. find more gold) and practice moderation (i.e. don't buy everything the store has) with convenience (i.e. upgrades that provide a little benefit without detracting from difficulty)

jtr7
6th Jul 2009, 23:13
.......................

CavaliereNero
6th Jul 2009, 23:15
Now that makes it sound like you're just nitpicking. Changing arrow arcs wouldn't affect how challenging the game is, but there's little point to it either way so long as you know how to aim. Post the graph up. If you have specific things to talk about, we might have a good convo going here. But keeping it vague will lead to sweeping generalizations. And socks? That would help on those tile floors, yea. Might smart some more on those hard landings, though. But I'd rather the dev team spend those development cycles on the basics before putting in little touches like that. Save them for the sequel, if we're lucky.

jtr7
6th Jul 2009, 23:21
.......................

Hypevosa
6th Jul 2009, 23:31
the graph is somewhere amongst one of the other threads... hold on, I'll try to find it.

CavaliereNero
6th Jul 2009, 23:33
We're all nitpicking here! :lmao:



As long as people deny the fantasy of that world, there will be pointless quibbles.

True, good point. :rolleyes:

Still, arrow arcs? Come on! :mad2:

jtr7
6th Jul 2009, 23:41
.....................

Hypevosa
6th Jul 2009, 23:44
Giving an arrow less arc is synonymous to a higher pull on the bow, that's the upgrade I was talking about.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa18/Hypevosa/Difficulty.jpg

That's the graph I made somewhere, when I wanted to emphasize the impact THIEF upgrades should have on difficulty.

If the upgrades made you stealthier in lighter conditions, quieter in normally louder conditions, or anything that dramatically effected normal gameplay, then I don't think those upgrades should be in thief. I also don't think upgrades should consist of carrying around a giant two handed claymore, or anything else that turns Garrett into a fighting machine. Despite what the poll indicates, I still feel that upgrades have a place in thief, it's just that it would be rather hard to have them since they'd have to be balanced to a good degree, where they don't make the game super easy, just make some little facets of play more convenient. While I empathize with the argument that the player needs to become better, not his equipment, I don't see how his equipment can't become better as well. It's not an infallable bow, and a sword that can take anyone out in one hit that I'm suggesting. Simply little conveniences, and a little customization to game play, and while the customization is not minimalistic, not many people buy a game because it's minimalist. But there are people who will be influenced to purchase due to the ability to customize, even if it's only a little.

jtr7
7th Jul 2009, 00:09
...................

Hypevosa
7th Jul 2009, 00:22
Why would having a little convenience as a reward for those who are extremely proficient thieves, be detrimental to the game? I still don't understand that. It's not removing player skill from the game. I actually think that the most detrimental thing to the "need of skill" is the fact that we can save and reload whenever we want. you miss a shot? reload and take it again. You make a not so stealthy move? reload and try again. There is no skill that is inherent because a lack of skill does not force players to become better, only try their luck again. A player chooses to become skilled, it is not inherently forced upon them by game design, especially with thief's save system.

jtr7
7th Jul 2009, 00:33
.........................

CavaliereNero
7th Jul 2009, 00:37
So you want upgrades that are purely aesthetic in nature. :scratch:

:confused:

Hypevosa
7th Jul 2009, 00:52
well look at all the upgrades from T1 and TMA.

1. Constantine's sword - allowed you to draw your sword in darkness without revealing yourself. Was there any change in difficulty when this was implemented? No, none whatsoever. It was merely, a convenience. This one cost you your EYE though if you look at it in the long run...

2. Vine arrows - allowed you to affix ropes to surfaces that weren't wood (still not all surfaces, but metal grates and other things). Did this change the game's difficulty at all? no, none at all. There were no situations where the vine arrow was NEEDED, because good stealth and taking alternate routes could be used, but it was a convenience to not have to take alternate routes to get where you wanted to go, or to hide behind a hulking boiler with an attached cannon so that a camera wouldn't see you...

3. Mechanical eye - allowed you to zoom in. Did this change difficulty? No, it merely provided the convenience of being able to discern patrol patterns and pocket loot from a distance.

All previous upgrades, though never truly bought, were conveniences. I'm merely saying the pattern should continue, but expand to where players have some control over it, and where skills will help in attaining them.

jtr7
7th Jul 2009, 00:58
......................

Hypevosa
7th Jul 2009, 01:02
I can't constantly update my previous statements to my current understandings and gained wisdom and insight. Though I don't remember previously stating anywhere that I wanted things that provided (at least what to me) was more than a convenience?

CavaliereNero
7th Jul 2009, 01:03
Constantine's sword, vine arrows, as well as the mechanical eye were upgrades, sure, but they were ones that were implemented to compliment the story line. You may as well add frog beasts eggs, as they were made available after Garrett's alliance with Viktoria. But having upgrades "just because" is a different matter.

I just feel that customization would take the player out of the immersion a bit too much. It's enough Garrett has an arsenal enough to match Link from Zelda without compromising his sneaksiness. I don't need to pimp my blackjack, it works fine without being a baseball bat.

Hypevosa
7th Jul 2009, 01:07
then you don't have too :D That's the point of providing convenience over necessity, and it allows you to play the game with your play style, the minimalist.

Blade_hunter
7th Jul 2009, 01:08
The first thief games used other items as upgrades.

But in thief the upgrades can give you some benefits but not in therms of power or if you have more power you may loose a benefit that weapon had before.
For example we have a dagger upgraded to a sword it's more powerful and long but it's much slower and isn't good to use in straight corridors ...

Even if in thief we can't upgrade our weapons in thief 2 for example we gain access to new items, this is an upgrade. because second the difficulty you can use new stuff

Arkanis
7th Jul 2009, 04:21
No, Garret, and the Thief series have always been about you using your own personal skill (With some help with tricks), not upgrading and becoming stronger.

Hypevosa
7th Jul 2009, 04:35
hence the bit about them being a convenience not a strength or a necessity. Something that can be opted for or against by prerogative of the player, yet still give some kind of reward for those who're proficient in the art of exploration and conservation.

I couldn't have explained the kind of upgrades better than in the post about how all upgrades to this point have been nothing more than a convenience, and the kind of upgrades I want are just supposed to be that, and nothing more.


well look at all the upgrades from T1 and TMA.

1. Constantine's sword - allowed you to draw your sword in darkness without revealing yourself. Was there any change in difficulty when this was implemented? No, none whatsoever. It was merely, a convenience. This one cost you your EYE though if you look at it in the long run...

2. Vine arrows - allowed you to affix ropes to surfaces that weren't wood (still not all surfaces, but metal grates and other things). Did this change the game's difficulty at all? no, none at all. There were no situations where the vine arrow was NEEDED, because good stealth and taking alternate routes could be used, but it was a convenience to not have to take alternate routes to get where you wanted to go, or to hide behind a hulking boiler with an attached cannon so that a camera wouldn't see you...

3. Mechanical eye - allowed you to zoom in. Did this change difficulty? No, it merely provided the convenience of being able to discern patrol patterns and pocket loot from a distance.

All previous upgrades, though never truly bought, were conveniences. I'm merely saying the pattern should continue, but expand to where players have some control over it, and where skills will help in attaining them.