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Platinumoxicity
5th Jun 2009, 20:32
Absolutely no-one can deny that the maps of the missions in TDS suck. They are horrendous pieces of crap. They looked like a 5-year old was told to draw a map of the place while wearing a blindfold. None of the maps in TDS made any sense. They were disorienting and misleading, and had different floors drawn on the same paper combined with other floors. They were drawn based on the level*, not based on the building. The moment when I heard that I'd be getting a real set of blueprints for a huge mental institute from the grave of the designer of the place before entering, I almost thought that I could get a real map. But no. I got a messy set of random lines, no doors or rooms marked, and no separate maps of different floors. It's impossible to draw a real map of a 2-storey building when you need to cram both floors on the same picture. The result can be viewed in every mission of TDS.

T1 and T2 had maps that were either sketches from criminal informants or real blueprints from the City planning department. They had separate papers for each floor and they showed different areas clearly in addition to the doors leading to them. You could also write your own notes to the maps.

This is a good subject because no-one can honestly say that the TDS maps were better, and I don't like getting butthurt when people have different opinions, obviously :D. But by all means try! For the lulz! :nut:

*The level means the part of the mission that has been split in two in the game because of "you know what".

Belboz
5th Jun 2009, 21:01
in thief 1 and 2 we had automaps which would highlight when you were in an area of the map, for thief 3 maps were so awful and didn't match any area you were in that whoever drew them should have been locked away in craigscleft in a pit of spiders.

ToMegaTherion
5th Jun 2009, 21:12
I wonder whether if Dark Project and Metal Age had no map highlight and then Deadly Shadows had introduced it, we would have lots of complaints about dumbing down :D

I thought the Deadly Shadows maps were broadly similar to the Dark Project ones in terms of utility: some were pretty useful, and some were pretty useless.

Platinumoxicity
5th Jun 2009, 21:18
I wonder whether if Dark Project and Metal Age had no map highlight and then Deadly Shadows had introduced it, we would have lots of complaints about dumbing down :D

I thought the Deadly Shadows maps were broadly similar to the Dark Project ones in terms of utility: some were pretty useful, and some were pretty useless.

You've got a point there, but the TDS maps would have only been useful if they'd even vaguely represented the missions. Even if there wasn't a highlighting in T1 and T2, you'd still know quite easily where you were and where to go. The maps in TDS were completely useless in every aspect except the "North" -direction arrow. (Even that was fubar in some missions, such as St. Edgars)

Hamadriyad
5th Jun 2009, 21:47
. You could also write your own notes to the maps.
.

Maybe you will laugh to me but I must ask this:HOW? :D

Neb
5th Jun 2009, 21:51
Maybe you will laugh to me but I must ask this:HOW? :D

I think I only bothered once, but if I remember correctly, you simply click where you want and then type.

Hamadriyad
5th Jun 2009, 21:54
I think I only bothered once, but if I remember correctly, you simply click where you want and then type.

Thanks

Terr
5th Jun 2009, 22:16
I wonder whether if Dark Project and Metal Age had no map highlight and then Deadly Shadows had introduced it, we would have lots of complaints about dumbing down :D
It seems quite plausible. Half of user-interface success is doing what people already expect.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
6th Jun 2009, 02:02
I agree with this thread.

Also, I loved being able to type my own notes or add my own markers in games. It may not have been used much by me in the Thief games, but I did use it sometimes. I think in that warehouse level in Thief 2 I used it to mark doors and their codes on the map. I also used it to say where a locked door was in case I eventually found the key and forgot where it was. I'd love to see the note making feature make a return. This time though, I'd like to be able to add markers like X's or arrows, maybe even draw lines. I'm getting ahead of myself, but I think it would be neat

Neb
6th Jun 2009, 02:10
It may not have been used much by me in the Thief games, but I did use it sometimes. I think in that warehouse level in Thief 2 I used it to mark doors and their codes on the map. I also used it to say where a locked door was in case I eventually found the key and forgot where it was.

I kind of feel silly for never bothering to do that.

I.....erm......think you've just created a reason for me to play both games AGAIN.

(Thanks) :D

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
6th Jun 2009, 02:39
heh. It is a nifty feature. They should've mentioned it in the tutorial missions. I don't think it was mentioned at all in the game. I only learned of the typing on map thing by accidentally clicking on it and noticing the line that let me type.

DarthEnder
6th Jun 2009, 03:43
Oh yeah, I always used the map page to write down combination codes and whatnot.


The maps in T1 were pretty ****ty too. They didn't light up room by room like alot of the maps in T2 did, sometimes they just gave you a vague "Your in this...quarter of the building."

Hell half the time it only bothered to tell you what floor you were one.

I liked the way the map worked in Casing the Joint best. Where the map was the outline of the building, and as you moved from room to room Garrett drew each room in.

kaekaelyn
6th Jun 2009, 06:09
Ugh...I know, even with the allegedly smaller missions (not saying I don't believe you, just that it's impossible for me to tell) in TDS I can't ever hope to find my way around without a decent map. In the Rutherford Mansion mission I usually end up running from the kitchen to the courtyard back to the kitchen into the dining hall over and over and over again for about 30 minutes until I finally stumble into the area that can take me up to the master bedroom. I am serious; I simply cannot do it with the TDS map. Now you know why I don't ghost; it isn't because I lack the patience to slip from room to room without being noticed--it's because I lack the patience to creep and stalk each room 500 times while I try to figure out where I'm going. Better just to knock them all out so I can make stumbling around blindly less unnecessarily painful. Seriously, my 90-year-old grandma was watching me play that level (I think it was about the 2nd or 3rd time I'd played it, actually) and she said, "I wouldn't think this is fun. It's just all about running around. All you do in this game is run around." Because that's all I'd been doing for the last half hour, just running around randomly because the map couldn't point me in the right direction.

OK, enough complaining/wallowing/ranting about off-topic stuff. The point is, the maps weren't enough to serve my needs, and I had no idea where to go. Yes, bring back the old maps, yes, yes. For the love of God, yes. I thought it was probably just me, and most people could understand those maps, but now I realize I probably just had a more extreme version of the problem other people had.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
6th Jun 2009, 07:22
Hey Kae, you may want to try making markers for places you've been to so you remember not to wander there again.

In that example you provided, you may have been able to grab a box/candle/whatever and keep it with you to place at the doorways you've been to. This way you know you've already been there and not to go there again. You can make this a habit so that after you clear a room you place something at the entrance/exit to remind you that you've cleared it. Or on areas with torches, you can put one out and use it as a marker. I did this recently in the old Thief mission Assassination (i think) when I came to the upstairs part. I noticed it was like a big square of hallways with torches all the way. To remember which exit/entrance I came from, I put out the torch right next to it. Helped me bunches.

May not be very useful advice, but if I have trouble navigating a game I try to make markers out of whatever or try to remember landmarks. In more extreme cases I may even draw my own crude maps. May be obvious, but the situation you described is something I've seen many gamers go through. Part of the reason why I think the 'guiding arrow' was invented in games.

obvious edit. Beware that guards will hear you 'place' things if they are close enough.

kaekaelyn
6th Jun 2009, 07:29
Hey, that's a good idea. It could probably really help me out if I did it right. Thanks for the tip! My situation is probably a little different than that of most other gamers' though, because I can't even find my way to my own house through the neighborhood I've lived in for 20 years. Markers that I place myself could probably help, however. Wish I could place some around my own city!

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
6th Jun 2009, 07:38
Oh jeez. I'm the same way. I can't drive for crap because I keep forgetting where to go. I was thinking of getting a gps thingy. You may want to try that too:D I try to avoid driving whenever possible. Sometimes I feel like everybody else has a super great memory and I don't. Like reading, I often have to read the same thing over and over to get a good grasp of what it's about. argh and I have trouble remembering names and all kinds of things. You should see my desktop and pockets. Full of notes, things I want to remember.

Anyway, lets hope the maps in Thief 4 are more coherent/useful and allow me to jot down notes and draw on them. I remember in Raven Shield, the planning before a mission felt like it was half the game. I always hated when the AI would manage to get themselves killed following my 'master plan', but when I did the same plan I would rock it. Silly AI.


Markers that I place myself could probably help, however. Wish I could place some around my own city! lol start spray painting some mailboxes and trees.

DarthEnder, I was pissed at the bonehoard map. Especially when I got to the last area of it. All the ramps and rooms. I was wandering around a lot and looking at the map did nothing to help me. I understand that Garrett would'nt really have a map of the place, but man that was annoying. I found the exit before hand and it took me so long to find it again when I was ready to leave ><

Platinumoxicity
6th Jun 2009, 10:14
DarthEnder, I was pissed at the bonehoard map. Especially when I got to the last area of it. All the ramps and rooms. I was wandering around a lot and looking at the map did nothing to help me. I understand that Garrett would'nt really have a map of the place, but man that was annoying. I found the exit before hand and it took me so long to find it again when I was ready to leave ><

The Bonehoard map pissed me off too. The TDS maps were drawn exactly like that one. No indications of how many floors, no idea what height I was according to the map and no paths to follow to reach my goal. :mad:

Platinumoxicity
6th Jun 2009, 10:35
Look at the Wieldstrom map for instance. It's horrible! Not only it's disorienting and mispropotioned, but some of the places are just simply wrong! Especially the area around the main atrium, three floors full of hallways and rooms, all stuck on the same picture with doors leading to wrong places and some doors removed completely. Entire areas missing, 2nd, 3rd and 1st floors combined without any logic? Who drew these? A demented burrick high on ether and shrooms? I'm trying to ghost Wieldstrom in minimalist project on expert, and I have no idea which door leads to where! I'm trying to be a professional here.
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6659/bullshiasdt.png

huzi73
6th Jun 2009, 11:48
No wonder! I always thought navigating missions were kinda wierd! Now i know why! Good point. I recently played the sword mission from tdp,and use potplants skulls etc to mark places. Btw, heres a tip. in the bonehoard, there are only 2 major ramps on the ground floor in the main area. A wooden one, and a stone one. Im not sure which, but one of two major rampr leads to a series of smaller ramps, and at the top, somewhere in the shadows, is a crawlspace which leads to an outer area(similar to the starting outer area,) which acts as exit .. I think

CurtX
6th Jun 2009, 14:17
The original map styles need to come back, with automapping. I liked how the maps were intentionally vague or ambiguous. I don't want maps that show me exactly where to find everything; no challenge, no fun.

Platinumoxicity
6th Jun 2009, 14:38
The original map styles need to come back, with automapping. I liked how the maps were intentionally vague or ambiguous. I don't want maps that show me exactly where to find everything; no challenge, no fun.

Yeah, but it would still be nice to have a map of the building were you are and not a doodle that looks like you've drawn it together by listening someone describing the place on the phone. The TDS maps were not just vague, they were downright false.

The map from the architect that designed the Cradle was the last straw. How can you design a huge stone complex with massive towers based on that mess that looked like a kid's drawing? There weren't even any outside shapes to see. It's like he designed the house to be destroyed in a very specific way because apparently he didn't design the nowadays-unaccessible areas at all.
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/4764/mapshalebridge.jpg

esme
6th Jun 2009, 17:26
I liked the TDP/TMA maps, the current position highlight feature was used in at least one FM to start with a blank map and build it up as you explore

also in TDS, two halves of the same area didn't necessarily line up without some adjustment in the editor (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94013), for example the two halves of the manor in the first mission fit at the points of their loading zones and if the building doesn't link correctly how can the map ?

DarthEnder
6th Jun 2009, 17:42
That's what I always loved about the Bank & Trust map was that is actually LOOKED like it was the one map Garrett actually stole the damn blueprints for the building instead of drawing it himself.

jermi
6th Jun 2009, 17:52
Big deal. TDS missions are so tiny nobody needs maps.

Taffer17
7th Jun 2009, 05:56
I kind of feel silly for never bothering to do that.

I.....erm......think you've just created a reason for me to play both games AGAIN.

(Thanks) :D


it doesnt work in thief 1, only in thief 2. it was a nice feature they added for the sequel, then removed for the third...which makes sense since they did it for multiple platforms. i only played tds on xbox cause i dont have money for a nice graphics card (although i guess it would work on my new computer), and there's no way u could type this stuff with an xbox. it would take an eternity.

anyway, i liked the map filling itself out as u entered new rooms since that would mean garrett is actually filling it out himself.

anyway, maybe its because i have a good sense of direction in real life, idk. but when i play video games i almost always know where i've been already. even in levels like the sword, i know if i've been somewhere before. my problem is finding a way out of that rut cause i dont always see the new direction to go...anyway, its relatively easy to find ur away around in missions if u just pay attention to ur surroundings (which you should be doing anyway since ur sneaking around) and know that some rooms will probably connect to the room that u were just in, especially if its a long hallway. but who knows, maybe thats just some skill i have that other people dont (but i dont think so), so i may be coming across as condescending...which i do not mean to at all so sorry if i am :p

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 06:43
Now TDS did indeed make a mistake with their mapping in terms of cramming 2 floors onto one page... but I think they were more going for realism in terms of the drawing part. A real criminal informant is probably not going to take a ruler to paper, scale all the rooms he saw, and then draw them out in perfect dimensions. He's probably gonna take the parchment you hand him and give the best rendition he can... and since you probably liquered him up for the info, it's probably not going to be looking so good. And people do make mistakes, people think a door is one way when it's really another, and little mistakes here or there.

Gameplay vs realism... for the sake of gameplay I'd say we'd have to go with the better drawn maps on this one. Though it would be cool to have funny little notes in the maps like "Maid's quarters" with little red text next to it "She's a cutie" and stuff like that. I do like the idea of if you don't know explicitly what some place is like, whenever you pull out your map garrett has drawn in the new discoveries. But the ugly anti-informative mapping has to go.

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 09:26
When I was a kid and played "Assassins" in T1, I was bothered my the pathetic map of Ramirez' mansion. So I took a paper and really drew a realistic map of the building, everything in scale and different floors mapped separately. Then I noticed that this could well be a real house. There weren't any "solid" areas inside the house that you would normally see (not see) in the game. It looked like the house was really built with a plan, and not made by an over-confident level designer that thinks: "Haha, I'll just make huge unaccessible areas in the middle of the house and nobody will even notice!" Yeah, I did notice the yard in Rutherford's Castle, the one that can be seen through the windows next to the level-changey-swirley downstairs. A whole courtyard inside the castle without any means of entry. Or that tower that has nothing inside it? No 1st floor, no second, we can't even get there. Damn you xböx, that could have been a beautiful level. :mad:

CurtX
7th Jun 2009, 12:56
Yeah, but it would still be nice to have a map of the building were you are and not a doodle that looks like you've drawn it together by listening someone describing the place on the phone. The TDS maps were not just vague, they were downright false.
Well I was primarily referring to the maps from the first games; I liked how they were intentionally sketchy. I frankly don't remember the maps from TDS (much of that game was forgettable for me.) But really, the idea of doodling a map from listening to someone on the phone is not far from how it really ought to be. Let's face it, if there is secret loot hiding somewhere, no one is going to be miraculously given a high quality map that pinpoints the location and resembles something made by a professional cartographer. And certainly a (smart) rich person that lives in big mansion isn't going to be publishing a detailed map of the inside's layout for the world to see.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
7th Jun 2009, 13:35
Can we at least have separate maps for each floor?

wow found this link. It seems to show every map from thiefg II and DS.

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/In-game_Maps

edit. hmm if those screens are for real, wtf happened to the text on the maps? TDS just used pictures? Like in the Rutherford castle, there's a picture of a guard where a particular one is posted. The map makes it look like he's a statue or something. Why couldn't it just say 'guard'?

CurtX
7th Jun 2009, 14:09
Showing floors is good. But again I don't expect them to be completely accurate or highly detailed. It should resemble something that was sketched from hearsay, rumors, memory, speculation, legend, etc.

Yaphy
7th Jun 2009, 15:30
I agree with this thread. The T3 maps is a never-again thing. More detailed maps. But I dont want highlights of the room youre in. If you get lost even if you have a detailed map, you deserve to find yourself again.

ToMegaTherion
7th Jun 2009, 15:40
I quite like the location highlighting simply because navigation in video games seems to be naturally harder than navigation in real life, so it's not unreasonable to have a mechanic for countering that.

kaekaelyn
7th Jun 2009, 16:28
Location highlighting! Location highlighting!

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 16:35
Look at this one, it makes no distinction between what is a stairway and what is a quay. It looks like the docks are filled with endlessly circulating staircases. And look at the pagan HQ. Look at it! There's nothing right with this map.
http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/File:TDS_map_Docks.jpg

There's no excuse with this one. North is "up", like... to the sky? And it shows that there are 2 floors and all we got is one room that's full of squares and arrows. ...Or 4 rooms filled with arrows each one separated with 3 meter-thick concrete walls with no doors?
http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/File:TDS_map_Seaside.jpg

And look at this, the 1st floor part that has been jammed in the middle makes no sense at all. It doesn't even show what is open space and what's not. What, the "stairs" in the center lead to... Inside a wall? And we had 2 ways to enter this area, where's the other one?
http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/File:TDS_map_Castle.jpg

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
7th Jun 2009, 17:13
LOL those maps are hopeless. They barely helped at all in that game. I don't mind a map being a little vague. I don't expect perfect blueprints all the time, but these maps shouldn't have been this bad and worthless.

I love how the map is showing the tunnel entrance to the manor. That doesn't help at all. The manor itself doesn't seem to have a map really. I can't stop laughing. WHAT are those lines pointing at the squares for? There's no text at all! It's so comical. Like it's a fake map.

ToMegaTherion
7th Jun 2009, 18:17
Of course there actually is text on the maps in the game, just not on those images for some reason.

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 18:30
Of course there actually is text on the maps in the game, just not on those images for some reason.

Oh, I was stupid again. :nut: Editing post.

That means removing the word "random" from "random arrows"

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
7th Jun 2009, 18:58
ah I didn't know. Thanks for the reminder.

I'll keep an eye out while I play. I'm still early in the game on my current playthrough. I can say that the Rutherford map didn't help me.

Does anybody have a screen of the actual in game seaside manor map? I wanna see what those arrows say.

Yaphy
7th Jun 2009, 19:05
I hate the Seaside map, It should have been 3 maps, one for the down floor, one for the upper floor and one for the sideview. At that map, I got really lost the first time i played it. When you found a note that said that you should go somewhere, you wasnt sure what floor the map said that the room was on.

Hypevosa
7th Jun 2009, 19:12
well, at least the levels were small enough you didn't NEED maps...