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View Full Version : The overlapping concepts between Thief 4 and Assassin's Creed 2



SteamEng
4th Jun 2009, 17:43
I just saw the demo of Assassin's Creed 2 during E3 and it was awesome. Come to think of it, reminded me of how I also want Thief 4 to be, I mean they roughly took place in the same period of time. The hero is an outlaw, the only different is that one is a thief and another an assassin.In AC2 the freedom seem limitless and I am really hope that Thief 4 would give us an even better freedom allowing for more possibilities in gameplay.

Direlord
4th Jun 2009, 17:48
I have never played AC or seen much of AC2 but from what i do know it is far more action oriented with fancy acrobatic moves and such correct?

While more freedom is great fancy moves like backflips or odd stuff along with action does go against the old thief games. While you could fight most of the game was avoiding fighting or even being seen. There is a thread even going with you are a thief not a murderer objective in the higher difficulties of the older games.

Maybe you can give more examples of specific things from AC you would like added into thief?

Also might want to wear a flame suit too.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 17:56
While I loved Assassin's Creed dearly, I'm going to have to say no. Assassin's Creed is geared straight towards fast thinking and speedy gameplay. Thief ont he opposite token is very methodical and patiently slow.

The only thing I'de like to take from Assassin's Creed is its massive open environments. Leave the parkour with Assassin's Creed.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 18:09
And... I wouldn't know, having never played it, but doesn't Assassin's Creed strongly encourage KILLING? Confrontation? Mingling in crowds? Parkour?

He meant use Assassin's Creed as a design model, not make a carbon copy. :hmm:

a_taffer
4th Jun 2009, 18:29
I am against the whole sandbox freedom thing, and here's why:

Thief is a stealth game. It's not about collecting items and upgrading your character or running around a city choosing where you want to go. It's been done a hundred times and if I want a truly submersive open world game, I'll play GTA. In my opinion, they focused too much on the city aspect in Thief 3 and the gameplay suffers. Thief is about using what you have in the situation you are given. This creates a provocative play style that allows for multiple ways to deal with any situation.

Freedom =/= gameplay. I would perfer a solid game instead of an OK playground, if you know what I mean. The beauty of Thief 1 and 2 is the smooth control and balanced items that give you the option to take the game to new levels if you have enough skill. In Thief 3, I always felt that the controls were working against me, and for most of the game, I was fit to take any threat with ease. I could litterally go around on expert mode killing at least 5 guards with just my bow before things got out of my control. If you recall Thief 1, just 1 guard is usually enough to take you down, depending. It's like this in any other good stealth game, such as MGS.

Another great thing about Thief 1 and 2 wa the story. Call me a die-hard fan, but the story telling in Thief 1 and 2, with the shadowy characters and really cool looking art, really set it apart from any other game - even games from today. Thief 2 set the bar even higher by adding conspiracies and showy characters to the mix.

If there's one game I want Thief 4 to be like, it's Thief 1. Not to say your idea is a bad one OP, but it's games like Assassin's creed that I feel work AGAINST the stealth genre; giving your character too much freedom and power so that there is very little challenge.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Jun 2009, 18:37
I just saw the demo of Assassin's Creed 2 during E3 and it was awesome. Come to think of it, reminded me of how I also want Thief 4 to be, I mean they roughly took place in the same period of time. The hero is an outlaw, the only different is that one is a thief and another an assassin.In AC2 the freedom seem limitless and I am really hope that Thief 4 would give us an even better freedom allowing for more possibilities in gameplay.

Yeah, the demo is fab. :cool:

I agree with you that the sense of freedom in AC is something that I hope T4 will have, I have always liked how fluid the character's movement is too. Lets hope Garrett is just as fit when he needs to be. ;)

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 19:41
If elements in AC are taken, which will not affect Thiefs gameplay or style, or roots in any way, then why not?

Zahr Dalsk
4th Jun 2009, 19:44
Assassin's Creed was about running around spamming that counterattack thing.

It was not a challenging game, it was not a complex game.

I don't want to see anything from it make its way into Thief 4 because it would be a downgrade.

DarthEnder
4th Jun 2009, 19:56
I've said it before in other threads, I think AC's running and climbing gameplay would fit Thief perfectly. Yes. I realize, Altair is far more nimble than Garrett ever was, but I strongly believe that that is because game engines straight up couldn't DO that **** back then, and if they'd have been able to Garrett would have moved like that from the beginning.

I also think AC's sword combat is really good and I think it would work great for Thief if the AI wasn't completely retarded like is it in AC. AC's melee combat is all about countering and having good rhythm and timing. It's even great the way enemies automatically encircle you when they have you outnumbered. The problem, and the reason Altair can kill 10 guys at a time, is that the AI behaves stupidly and attacks one at a time, Even when he's doing a long killing animation, the other guards just stand there, staring. If they actually made the guards that are behind you slash you accross the back every time you tried to do a killing blow on one of the other guards, it would quickly become impossible to beat more than 2 or so guards at a time. If you take that combat though, factor in AI that attacks when it should, and factor in the fact that Garrett's health doesn't regenerate, AC's melee combat all of a sudden becomes perfectly balanced for Thief's gameplay. Where fighting a lone guard is easy, but one or two more and you'll scrambling for the flash bombs to save your ass.

Where AC fails as a Thief game is of course the stealth, which is terrible by comparison. All that trying to blend in with crowds in the middle of the day instead of hiding in the shadows just isn't nearly as satisfying. And of course, the storyline and setting of AC isn't nearly as interesting as the Thief world.


What it boils down to is I think if you combined the stealth gameplay, and the story/setting of the Thief series, the parkour movement and melee combat of Assassin's Creed, the in game physics of Half-life 2, with enemy AI that's improved past any used previously, you'd have the perfect Thief game.

Yotun
4th Jun 2009, 20:06
I liked AC1 surprisingly, though most of its criticisms are true - especially about repetitiveness and ease of combat. However I loved the setting, the feel, and the open ended nature of the cities.

Having said that, I watched the 15 minute interview and video of AC2, and this is a rare case of me being excited about a game. They seem to have really taken into consideration the key failures of the first game, especially mission variety and structure and the game looks awesome.

Having said THAT, Assasin's Creed is NOT Thief, and I would not like the 2 to come together. Garrett does not have the level of flexibility and acrobatics that Altair and the new guy (what's his name again?) have. Perhaps he could be slightly more flexible, but not to the extend that you see in AC. Thief is a completely different game, Garrett is the guy who moves slowly and deliberately, never seen, unmoving. the character's in AC are the really fast, really acrobatic kind of characters. The Thief world and the way the levels are designed do not fit in such a scheme. Garrett works in huge mansions, factories, banks, churches, in huge but enclosed spaces, hiding in the corners of shadows, and in small unobserved places away from guard patrols. The characters in AC work in a huge open world, in the exterior rather than interior, rushing through rooftops, jumping from ledge to ledge and hiding in huge crowds. The gameplay dynamics are different.

Also the characters in AC are not hesitant to kill, which is to be avoided in Thief. Of course that's not a weakness of the game - you are supposed to be an assasin after all - but it would be a weakness if it was implemented in a game like Thief which is a completely different style of game.

Finally, I would not like to see the city modelled completelly, like the cities in AC. Though I do think the AC cities were modelled to a relatively realistic size given the time period of the game, I would prefer the full extend of the city to be a mystery, and to remain a seemingly huge vast metropolis. Also, frankly, unless you give Garrett the same kind of acrobatic movements that the AC characters have, then traversing the city would take far too long, and would be a pain in the ass.

Yotun
4th Jun 2009, 20:09
I've said it before in other threads, I think AC's running and climbing gameplay would fit Thief perfectly. Yes. I realize, Altair is far more nimble than Garrett ever was, but I strongly believe that that is because game engines straight up couldn't DO that **** back then, and if they'd have been able to Garrett would have moved like that from the beginning.

I also think AC's sword combat is really good and I think it would work great for Thief if the AI wasn't completely retarded like is it in AC. AC's melee combat is all about countering and having good rhythm and timing. It's even great the way enemies automatically encircle you when they have you outnumbered. The problem, and the reason Altair can kill 10 guys at a time, is that the AI behaves stupidly and attacks one at a time, Even when he's doing a long killing animation, the other guards just stand there, staring. If they actually made the guards that are behind you slash you accross the back every time you tried to do a killing blow on one of the other guards, it would quickly become impossible to beat more than 2 or so guards at a time. If you take that combat though, factor in AI that attacks when it should, and factor in the fact that Garrett's health doesn't regenerate, AC's melee combat all of a sudden becomes perfectly balanced for Thief's gameplay. Where fighting a lone guard is easy, but one or two more and you'll scrambling for the flash bombs to save your ass.

Where AC fails as a Thief game is of course the stealth, which is terrible by comparison. All that trying to blend in with crowds in the middle of the day instead of hiding in the shadows just isn't nearly as satisfying. And of course, the storyline and setting of AC isn't nearly as interesting as the Thief world.


What it boils down to is I think if you combined the stealth gameplay, and the story/setting of the Thief series, the parkour movement and melee combat of Assassin's Creed, the in game physics of Half-life 2, with enemy AI that's improved past any used previously, you'd have the perfect Thief game.

You would have 'a' 'thief' game, but you would not have 'a Thief' game. The Thief franchise and brand is based on gameplay dynamics and game structures that do NOT include parkour movement and effective swordsplay. A stealth game that is a mixture between AC and Thief is definitely possible, BUT it would not be a Thief game, and if they want to do that, they should do it away from the Thief franchise.

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 20:10
now hold up, sure there's alot from AC that shouldn't go into the game... but there are a few elements that I don't think would be detremental to the thief experience.

Mainly the simple parkour moves like Rolling from a fall and Up wall running - for that extra 2 feet that it actually affords, it could be useful, and isn't a move that would require intense training to master. Some moves like the sideways wall run are rediculous and I don't think Garrett would even bother training... he's in places with stairs and elevators, not with floors that'll collapse beneath you, and he travels on roof tops. If he falls more than 20 feet he could try to roll out of it, and still would be hurting alot, but at least he wouldn't be dead. And if it's more than 30 feet there's no way he'd not break his legs or his face on impact anyways. But the 10 foot buffer zone wouldn't hurt.

However, the counter attack system is a big fat NO. Garrett is supposed to avoid combat at all costs, not be a master of it. He isn't in enough fights to have mastered learning how to counter attack, so why bother paying someone to learn?

Yotun
4th Jun 2009, 20:19
Well for me, as I said, some extra flexibility would be nice, but not to a huge extend. I can see how it would fit with Garrett's character, or even more easily with a new one if they decide to go that route. But again nothing to fancy.

One example I would like for example is for Garrett to be able to slide down ropes faster. He does it in the intro to Thief 1 for example. But you can also see from that video how I imagine Garrett moving - slowly, deliberately, as if he's just a shadow passing buy, and no fancy running stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpBJrKZcS2I

DarthEnder
4th Jun 2009, 20:38
The Thief franchise and brand is based on gameplay dynamics and game structures that do NOT include parkour movement and effective swordsplay.If your good enough at the using the sword, you can cut your way through any level in T1 and T2 easily. The sword is extremely effective in those games. Too much so in fact.

And like I said, I thnk the Thief gameplay WOULD have included parkour if such a thing even existed or was possible in a game back when the original games were made. You would expect a master Thief to be very agile, but he's anything but in the Thief games. He has to stack up three crates just to reach the high shelf.

Aristofiles
4th Jun 2009, 20:43
Garrett is a thief, not a fancy blood acrobat. He may be strong but he is a normal person. Sandbox would be ruining the game aswell. I see the thief games missions as a serie of obsticles and riddles.

first mission in thief 2 was amasing though, very open and great details in all the shops. The city in thief 3 was the oposite, Huge unpersonal, empty, very few intresting places and houses.

also while assasins creed is a very easy "speedy game" Thif is a VERY slow game about patiance witch only gets better the Harder it is. Make Thief insanĀ“to finish and i will love it forever

DarthEnder
4th Jun 2009, 20:49
Garrett is a thief, not a fancy blood acrobat. He may be strong but he is a normal person.Parkour is done by real people.



also while assasins creed is a very easy "speedy game" Thif is a VERY slow game about patiance witch only gets better the Harder it is.Well, the think about Assassin's Creed style parkour is that yes, it's a very fast and fluid way to move around, but it should be noisy as hell. You're pretty much running flat out the whole time your doing it. It's not something your going to be able to use to climb up to a balcony that has a guard standing on it. It's more of a "there's no guards out in this alley, time to do some fancy footwork to get me onto the roof" or "Crap, I set off the alarm, time to beet feet across these rooftops".

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 20:54
I have a lot of respect and envy for practitioners of both Parkour and Free Running. Those guys are so in shape, it's psychotic. That being said, it's also very high profile and attention grabbing, something Garrett is not.

DarthEnder
4th Jun 2009, 20:58
You mean except when he's throwing bombs and shooting flame missile arrows at at people and shooting holy water on zombies that makes them go off like bombs right?

It'd be like everything else in Thief. It's there for the folks that aren't subtle, but the true expert players just wouldn't use it.

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 21:02
As I said, simple parkour moves like vertical wall running and rolling after falls isn't that flashy, so fits thief in my opinion, the other more flashy and intensely difficult stuff though definitely would seem out of place to me.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 21:04
As I said, simple parkour moves like vertical wall running and rolling after falls isn't that flashy, so fits thief in my opinion, the other more flashy and intensely difficult stuff though definitely would seem out of place to me.

That would be the difference between Parkour and Free Running. Parkour is based around moving from one location to another as fluidly as possible. Free Running is based on moving from one location to another as stylishly as possible. One is showing off, the other is functional.

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 21:10
interesting, I always thought they were synonyms... just that one was the proper name and one was an americanized name.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 21:13
interesting, I always thought they were synonyms... just that one was the proper name and one was an americanized name.

Nope. While Parkour was the original, it was based on speed and efficiency while moving through a environment. Free Running came later and is more of a performance art, based around stylized street stunts.

DarthEnder
4th Jun 2009, 21:23
Free Running is like the X-Games version of Parkour.

Yotun
4th Jun 2009, 22:29
If your good enough at the using the sword, you can cut your way through any level in T1 and T2 easily. The sword is extremely effective in those games. Too much so in fact.

And like I said, I thnk the Thief gameplay WOULD have included parkour if such a thing even existed or was possible in a game back when the original games were made. You would expect a master Thief to be very agile, but he's anything but in the Thief games. He has to stack up three crates just to reach the high shelf.

Perhaps they would have, perhaps they wouldn't. The fact is, parkour wasn't in the first games. So Thief was established as the game it is, without it. If they want to include it, start a new franchise - not in Thief.

The sword was never meant to be n effective weapon. In fact if you're a good player, and thus want to play on expert, you're forbidden from killing. As for using flash bombs and firing a few fire arrows, I would hardly call that 'flashy' moves.

Thief is not a game where there are different styles you can use to play the game. Its a game where you have one style, and the options come from having different possibilities of how to use that limited style and set of tools to achieve your objectives. Its not full of options 'just for the people who want to use them'. And parkour would definitely not be something 'for the people who want to use it' - it would be impossible for a level designer to create environments that are just as playable for the players that 'choose to use parkour' as for players that 'choose not to'. We're not talking about a 'choose to use a dagger/sword' option here, we're talking about an option that dramatically changes the entire gameplay concept of Thief.

Perhaps a stealth game with parkour is a nice idea, and perhaps you think that it would be a great game to play, but its NOT a Thief game, and it would NOT be well-received.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Jun 2009, 22:46
Thief is not about combat, it is predominantly about stealth.
There are so many other games that can accommodate parkour in a stealth game - and I kindly beg anyone who wants this to go play those instead, please, and let Thief remain true to the original concept.

I agree with Yotun, parkour would not be well received. :(

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 23:22
Garrett's a master thief because:

He knows how to slip into the shadows at an opportune moment.
He's cunning.
He knows his enemy.
He knows how to exploit his surroundings to his advantage.
He's got the tools of his trade, and he knows how to use them. And when he doesn't have those tools, he knows how to improvise.

He's not a master thief because he can run faster and do all sorts of crazy acrobatic moves that the guards can't hope to keep up with. Those skills are great and all, but they'd take the important emphasis away from the game. It would require a complete overhaul of the game, which I don't want to see, and for me, it would change Garrett way too much. That's not what he's about.

Caranfin
4th Jun 2009, 23:36
Assassin's Creed is all about going fast and flashy, which doesn't fit in Thief at all. I would also prefer to have set missions in their own areas like TDP and TMA had than a big open "Grand Theft Loot: The City" style game.


As I said, simple parkour moves like vertical wall running and rolling after falls isn't that flashy, so fits thief in my opinion, the other more flashy and intensely difficult stuff though definitely would seem out of place to me.
I agree. I would hate to have Assassin's Creed or Mirror's Edge style big jumps and huge, flashy movement in Thief. But that is not the only way you can do parkour. I think it's entirely possible to make Garrett a bit more agile while keeping the minimalistic style of movement.

A vertical wallrun (though I disagree with the name; one step is the most effective, and "wallrun" seems to imply there are many) is a good example of this. You'd need to gather up a bit of speed, which makes noise, but you'd be able to get on top of higher walls than with just mantling. I'd also like to be able to quietly vault over low obstacles, and do a landing roll to reduce the damage and the noise of falling. Also, a thing I think the earlier games didn't have was hanging on ledges. If Garrett can jump to a wall and then climb on top of it, surely he should also be able to just hang on the side and observe his surroundings, and perhaps move along the wall to a better climbing position, before pulling himself up?

Hypevosa
5th Jun 2009, 00:01
Yes hanging on ledges and mantling to the side would be nice, just don't overdue it and make huge complex puzzles around hanging on ledges... really it's been done too many times.

kaekaelyn
5th Jun 2009, 00:15
Yeah, and if you get too complex, you might have to be in third person to realize what's going on. And I know how much love third person gets around here.

GmanPro
5th Jun 2009, 00:33
All the wall climbing and acrobatics may look nice, but it doesn't really make the game any more challenging. In my opinion it is not an unjustifiable position that instead of implementing fancy moves, the developers should instead focus their attention on creating more in depth puzzles. I'd rather that Thief 4 be full of challenging moments where you need to stop and think for several minutes to come up with some clever solution to a problem, as opposed to challenging moments where you need to be really quick and execute a series of button combinations in order to overcome some obstacle.

xDarknessFallsx
5th Jun 2009, 00:54
When I play Th4f, I hope the last thing I think about is AC. I don't want the two to have any similarities whatsoever.

I really wanted to like AC1, and gave it a chance... but I just got tired of the very repetitive need to go the birds-eye-view towers (it was fun a few times, but after a while all I could do is shake my head in 'are you serious?' disbelief); the very repetitive and annoying dialogue and speech of NCPs; the poor AI where the whole city is somehow alerted of your presence at once and 50 guards come after you; the poor AI in general; the "raised alert" status mechanic being poorly implemented; etc. It's really a poorly executed game, imo. So many shortcomings and repetitive gameplay features that I can't finish it no matter how hard I try; I get sick of it.

In watching the AC2 gameplay, I fear more of the same AC1 shortcomings.

Caranfin
5th Jun 2009, 01:06
All the wall climbing and acrobatics may look nice, but it doesn't really make the game any more challenging. In my opinion it is not an unjustifiable position that instead of implementing fancy moves, the developers should instead focus their attention on creating more in depth puzzles. I'd rather that Thief 4 be full of challenging moments where you need to stop and think for several minutes to come up with some clever solution to a problem, as opposed to challenging moments where you need to be really quick and execute a series of button combinations in order to overcome some obstacle.
I completely agree with this post. However, I feel that expanding Garrett's range of movements could, if made well, increase the depth of puzzles by creating more possible ways to get to places. Being able to hang on the side of a wall instead of immediately climbing it, or having the opportunity to climb a bit of a higher wall while making a large amount of noise wouldn't necessarily turn Thief's excellent slow and careful style of play into fast reflex-based running around, either.

Hypevosa
5th Jun 2009, 01:29
All the wall climbing and acrobatics may look nice, but it doesn't really make the game any more challenging. In my opinion it is not an unjustifiable position that instead of implementing fancy moves, the developers should instead focus their attention on creating more in depth puzzles. I'd rather that Thief 4 be full of challenging moments where you need to stop and think for several minutes to come up with some clever solution to a problem, as opposed to challenging moments where you need to be really quick and execute a series of button combinations in order to overcome some obstacle.

Why shouldn't there be both? Maybe there's a hallway, with traps that you can see coming out the wazoo. A careful thinker takes a piece of junk, puts it on a pressure plate in front of him setting of the trap, and it doesn't go off again, so he proceeds using that piece of junk and just replacing it every time he steps... the kneejerk reaction person can run through, and if they're quick enough mantle up the last wall and out of harms way. Remember how there was that pressure plate on the floor in the keeper place in the old quarter, and if you stepped on it the wall behind you started coming in to squish ya? The thinker would have observed, stepped to the side to pick the lock and then hopped through, or walked through. The kneejerk reaction person can look behind them, look up, fire a rope arrow into the wood and climb over the wall before it crushes them. (or you can just keep picking the lock if you're fast about switching and it's JUST enough time to get through, making for an almost indiana jones style finish)

I don't want my thief experience to be 90% thinking and 10% doing, I want a good mix of puzzle play and reactionary gaming.

GmanPro
5th Jun 2009, 01:33
A more realistic outcome would be

*The kneejerk reaction player rushes through the spinning blades and gets cut up and dies. Punishment for not thinking carefully.

The really smart player turn to his left and notices a small brick protruding from the wall and presses in to reveal a secret passage. That's more in keeping with the traditions of Thief imo

Thieffanman
5th Jun 2009, 01:36
I just saw the demo of Assassin's Creed 2 during E3 and it was awesome. Come to think of it, reminded me of how I also want Thief 4 to be, I mean they roughly took place in the same period of time.

I saw the demo too-- pretty nice :). I disagree about the time period references, though. Thief 1-3 is medieval-themed steampunk fantasy; Assassin's Creed 2 is about Renaissance-era Italy.

I see *great* possibilities about Thief 4 possibly being Renaissance-era fantasy/steampunk themed; but it would have to be done right: specifically, how the medieval/steampunk/gothic look would evolve in terms of clothes, buildings, setting, etc.


The hero is an outlaw, the only different is that one is a thief and another an assassin.In AC2 the freedom seem limitless and I am really hope that Thief 4 would give us an even better freedom allowing for more possibilities in gameplay.

I disagree. I think Aristofile has it right; open sandbox, like AC, would kind of kill the Thief 'obstacle course' feel that made the individual missions so great. :) Nope; no open sandbox.

--Thieffanman

DarthEnder
5th Jun 2009, 04:37
Why shouldn't there be both? Maybe there's a hallway, with traps that you can see coming out the wazoo. A careful thinker takes a piece of junk, puts it on a pressure plate in front of him setting of the trap, and it doesn't go off again, so he proceeds using that piece of junk and just replacing it every time he steps... the kneejerk reaction person can run through, and if they're quick enough mantle up the last wall and out of harms way. Remember how there was that pressure plate on the floor in the keeper place in the old quarter, and if you stepped on it the wall behind you started coming in to squish ya? The thinker would have observed, stepped to the side to pick the lock and then hopped through, or walked through. The kneejerk reaction person can look behind them, look up, fire a rope arrow into the wood and climb over the wall before it crushes them. (or you can just keep picking the lock if you're fast about switching and it's JUST enough time to get through, making for an almost indiana jones style finish)
Or they can do what every player ACTUALLY does, and that's get killed by the trap, then reload their last save and do one of the two things you suggested.

Hypevosa
5th Jun 2009, 05:54
true... I guess another challenge people could impose on themselves is the no saving and reloading challenge ;D

That or they could limit the number of saves we get per level to like 5 saves, and have one option where you get the temporary save until you resume thing. But that would be so evil. I love just f**kin it all up on purpose on occassion

Terr
5th Jun 2009, 06:42
That or they could limit the number of saves we get per level to like 5 saves
I saw that mechanic in some of the Hitman games, but it always struck me as a bit of a lazy way to add challenge.

Now, I'm not too worried about the Thief series having this problem, but with limited saves it's sort of a requirement you already know how long the map is because you've played it before. Ergo, it only makes sense for missions with lots of replayability.

Alex50
5th Jun 2009, 07:37
I did not see a demonstration video AC2. But I played AC. It is valid game the murderer, but not of the thief. Therefore I shall agree with opinion of the majority. That I want to see in T4 from AC:
- Well created costume of the main hero.
- Some elements AI of the opponent. Skill to work with group and ability to block by an circle.
- Some elements sandbox. The city is like TDS consisting from quarters with different style and architecture. The missions storyline should be loaded.
That I do not want to see in T4:
- parkour. Contradicts style of the Thief and completely will break gameplay. Here is necessary conservative approach, with cautious addition of innovations.
- Weak and numerous opponents which possible easily kill
- Huge and empty sandbox. (Even the search of flags does not inspire)

andrewb
5th Jun 2009, 07:42
I'm all for the more enclosed environments for the missions in thief, but having a free sand box area to go to between mission is okay, kinda like in DS, only the city in DS kinda sucked...

I also like the idea of Garret being more flexible. i'm not saying back flips, wall running and all that. just more realistic, which can be achieved now with better engines which they didnt have back in the days of Thief1&2.
i just hate it is all, when i'm playing a game such as thief, and i need to get past an obstacle on, climb along a ledge, climb through a window etc... and because of the game engine and the physics i can't, even if its a simple task i myself (a fairly weak scrawny teenager) could do.

so things such as crawling on your stomach, rolling after a fall, climbing through windows, i don't think they would hinder the game or significantly change the gameplay but would make it more interesting.

if there's one thing to get from AC1 or 2, its a better engine. but i trust T4 will have a good one anyway.

esme
5th Jun 2009, 13:36
Or they can do what every player ACTUALLY does, and that's get killed by the trap, then reload their last save and do one of the two things you suggested.I don't, I find the stealthy way, then when I've finished the level and I'm back for a replay I deliberately set off every trap I can find, being killed horribly and then reloading just to see what happens, the devs put a lot of effort into those traps it would be impolite not to set them off just to admire their engineering and imagination ;)