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View Full Version : We don't want our hand held through the game!



Corvin25
4th Jun 2009, 07:17
The gaming industry is slowly declining. One of the reasons is the distinct lack of gameplay in favor of graphics and cutscenes, meant to give players an instantaneous thrill, rather than a long-term, rewarding gaming experience.

Look at System Shock 2, for instance. The game never held your hand through anything. Your character never had any "help" of any sort. You were completely on your own, armed with only your wits, and what you could find on the ship. Hell, that was pretty much the point of the story. There were no ridiculously overpowered weapons, and as your character grew more powerful, so did the enemy, thus keeping a strong challenge. There were multiple menus and stats for you to pay attention to, and the game didn't have to "dumb anything down" for new players, especially after the very clear, concise tutorials.

Now, let's compare the gameplay the clone, er sorry, successor, which was created a decade later, Bioshock. The graphics are undeniably better, the physics engine vastly superior, no doubt. But after playing through it, I felt deeply unsatisfied. I'm not what one would consider a "hardcore" gamer, but I managed to play through the whole campaign without ever having to do any careful consideration or thinking, and when my character became a raging powerhouse near the end, everything just got juvenile.

I didn't need to reload to defeat the last boss, as it was ridiculously easy to figure out. The interface itself felt somehow... pathetic. It's like the game itself didn't expect gamers to be capable of understanding anything more complicated than a Halo mission.

Remember that although you may be trying to appeal to new fans, most of the people who are truly interested in Thief 4 are hardcore fans of the old games... Games from the late 90s and early 2000s, the golden age of PC gaming. These weren't just "interactive movies" that nudged you along as you went with minimal effort. These games were MEANT to be challenging. THey did it with System Shock 2, They did it with Thief, they did it with Baldur's Gate.

So please, Eidos... Don't make the game an easy one, and don't pull us through the story by removing the challenge. That's what happened with Thief 3, and it's what's been happening with games everywhere.

We don't want our hand held. It's just... weird. o_o;

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 07:57
agreed... if my hand is being held in thief, it better be because whoever is doing it plans to chop it off.

ToMegaTherion
4th Jun 2009, 08:30
As long as we're not talking X-COM hard here, I'm all for it :)

Yotun
4th Jun 2009, 10:33
You though X-Com was hard?

Which one are we talking about?

esme
4th Jun 2009, 11:32
what Corvin25 said :thumb:

you want to do something never done before ?

then give us a challenge, make it difficult, let us feel we've achieved something by finishing

why do you think there's such a strong fan mission community when FM's can't do things the modern engines can ? like the pre scripted ballet's of mayhem to dispatch opponents or "pick a direction and let the engine do the hard bits" type parkour

it's because they are challenging and difficult

and that's what makes them fun

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 11:46
You wanna make it difficult? Make it WAY harder than TDP on expert, TMA and TDS were walks in the park

ToMegaTherion
4th Jun 2009, 13:30
You though X-Com was hard?

Which one are we talking about?

UFO Defense. X-COM hard works like this:

First encounter - shoot a sectoid
Second encounter - shoot a few more
Third encounter - shoot a few more, take some losses because your silly soldiers can't open doors without walking into overwatch fire
Fourth encounter - All hell breaks loose and your entire squad, tank included, is annihilated from offscreen on your own first turn.

LightWarriorK
4th Jun 2009, 13:57
TDP was really only more difficult because the levels weren't designed as well as in TMA, I've come to believe. TDS, yeah, was just too easy.

Think about "The Sword" in TDP. Near the end you had all these long tiled hallways with no shadows, and some of the guards never passed through a shadowy area. That's not to say it was an impossible area, since a few well-timed Noisemaker arrows could lure them to a place where you could take care of them, but it was reallly very hard to ghost that level as a whole.

As I said in the AI thread, most of the difficulty from Thief comes not from the enemies, since they're pretty much all the same. The difficulty comes from the increasing number of enemies, the placement and routes of the enemies, and the increasingly difficult environments (less shadows, tile floors, etc).

So for me, increasing the difficulty of TMA, which had supurb level design, would require an increase in the difficulty of the individual enemies. But you really need both. Poor level design would make a game with harder AI almost impossible, just as good level design with junk AI is too easy.

I'm with the OP that the less we're given to go on the better. As much as I loved Bioshock, I had hoped that it would have been more open-ended and exploratory, but it ended up being very linear, and I just wanted the other characters to shut up and let me find out things on my own.

Direlord
4th Jun 2009, 16:56
not[/I] from the enemies, since they're pretty much all the same. The difficulty comes from the increasing number of enemies, the placement and routes of the enemies, and the increasingly difficult environments (less shadows, tile floors, etc).

So for me, increasing the difficulty of TMA, which had supurb level design, would require an increase in the difficulty of the individual enemies. But you really need both. Poor level design would make a game with harder AI almost impossible, just as good level design with junk AI is too easy.



Along with increasing AI type of monster or the amount of enemies; the game also never gave you the uber weapons of DOOM! In bioshock big daddys were a joke when i got the x-bow especially trap arrow. The splicers stopped being any sort of challenge with a few plasmids and weapon upgrades. Thief we got some more gear but all it did was add some options and were not end all weapons.

Level design was huge in all the Thief games and for the most part they were extremely well done. I think a few reasons for this was 1 the layouts were realistic to me I can imagine this being an actual building and not some group of hallways and small rooms linked together by a few openable doors. The atmosphere was also there.

The biggest thing I think though is the enviroment was part of the challenge. most games the enviroment is mostly what provides cover and where i'm going not much thought. Thief you have to worry if that floor is carpeted or marble tile, how well lit this hallway is and what kind of light source it is coming from.

What added to the challenge I though from MA and DP was you never seemed to have enough money for the next mission. You had to make hard choies on what you would buy with your previous loot and it never seemed enough. To I get 2 more water arrows or pick up that gas arrow. Stuff like that I would like to see again. In DS I have said before money came to easily and i had full stock of every item just because I had so much coin.

Tushaar
4th Jun 2009, 17:24
Yeah i agree, Thief is a game where you must think, read books and notes and figure stuff out, listening on guards conversations. There aren't many games like that nowadays, i hope eidos wont dissapoint us on this chance.
Today's games are meant for dumb teenagers who want to shoot something or kill monsters.
Hard to find an intelligent game now :P

a_taffer
4th Jun 2009, 18:37
I'm tellin you games are way too easy these days. The hardest I've played lately was MGS4. Now THAT'S a good game...

But for Thief, challenge is a big thing. Not only for the gameplay, but also for the MOOD.

If you're caught, you better make damn sure you have a backup plan, or else you're screwed. Having an escape tool for EVERY encounter like in T3 (flashbombs) makes you NOT WORRY about getting caught - which totally RUINS the stealth atmosphere!!

Give me guards that kill in 2 or 3 shots please. Give me more levels that work against you - instead of controls that work against you.

muteki13
4th Jun 2009, 19:05
I wouldn't say that graphics are being emphasized that much anymore either. Casual games and bilge for the Wii seem to be dragging down the quality and difficulty of games in general. Even grandiose games that should have had complicated combat systems like The Witcher and Assassin's Creed just had an icon that told you when to press a button.

Yotun
5th Jun 2009, 13:50
UFO Defense. X-COM hard works like this:

First encounter - shoot a sectoid
Second encounter - shoot a few more
Third encounter - shoot a few more, take some losses because your silly soldiers can't open doors without walking into overwatch fire
Fourth encounter - All hell breaks loose and your entire squad, tank included, is annihilated from offscreen on your own first turn.

Okay, okay, I know this is COMPLETELY unrelated to the thread, BUT I'm sorry, I think UFO Defense is a very easy game. If you were talking about Terror From the Deep, I'll admit that's much harder (though hardly impossible), but the first X-Com is not hard at all if you ask me. You get potentially some of the best weapons in the game extremelly early on (laser rifle), as soon as your second or third crash site potentially - and can get the plasma weapons equally as fast from there.

HellionKal
5th Jun 2009, 14:06
^^
"Terror from the Deep" was substantially difficult if played above the "Veteran" difficulty. Lobstermen appearing before you have the technology to face them properly, mind-controlling aliens making the entirety of my crew shoot each other, the entire civilian populations of terror sites being completely annihilated in the first 3-4 rounds...

Hm. Nostalgia. Reinstalling ASAP.


Back on-topic, I completely agree with the OP. Lack of challenge, power-playing, GPS map and compass...not in my THIEF.

ToMegaTherion
5th Jun 2009, 16:00
It doesn't really matter what guns you have if your entire squad can be eliminated from offscreen on your first turn :) The thing about XCOM is that some of the mechanics are really weird and not explained anywhere in my manual (such as why aliens can shoot at you even though you're out of their sight range). It's really quite confusing and non-intuitive why your squaddies are constantly being killed by things offscreen.