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View Full Version : ARROWS / Arrowheads - New Ideas & General Discussion Thread



Inspector Drept
3rd Jun 2009, 04:49
Smoke arrow: Makes a big black smoke where it hits. Good to make guards temporarily blind if they are inside it. Or to avoid bowmen firing at you. Or to draw attention to the smoke while you´re far away from it.

Web arrow: If it hits a door it won´t open (unless you clean it with a water arrow). If it hits the floor then guards will be stickied to it if they pass by. If it hits a window you can break it with your blackjack and it won´t make a noise. If it hits a wall you can climb it.

Scout arrow: An arrow with some sort of scout arrow at the point. Good for spying.

Blackout arrow: An anti tesla arrow. Fire it at any machinery and it will stop.

Portal arrow: Shoot it. Wherever it lands you get transported there instanctly.

Shock arrow: Shocks and kills your target if you hit him directly. Or you can shoot at metal floors to temporarily incapacitate everyone stepping on it.

Necromancer arrow: It kills with one hit. Whoever the body comes back as a zombie (or haunt if you kill a hammerite)

Barf arrow: Made of burrick barfs. Hitting a spot with this will make it smell so badly everybody will get away from it. If you hit a guard everyone will flee from him.

Mine arrow: Like a fire arrow but it can stick to walls and will only explode on contact, pressing a button or with a time limit.

Morphine arrow: Like a gas arrow. It has an area of effect where everybody that gets hit gets his alert level back to 0.

Ice arrow: Freezes water so you can walk on it (just like T2X) but you can also shoot at a guard to freeze him. And break him to pieces with your blackjack.

Puppet arrow: Shoot an arrow at a target. Now you can control all his moves.

Oblivious arrow: Shoot at a target. It will ignore you forever, even when alerted by other guards.

Rage arrow: Hit a target. It will attack his allies until taken down.

Benny arrow: Hit target. It becomes drunk.

Rust gas arrow: Destroy anything organic nearby.

PS: This is mostly for fun. Don´t take it too seriously with "NO NOT IN MY TH4 AARGH"

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 05:01
Inspired by blade hunter (Serious suggestion):

Thunder arrow - Causes a massive bang, deafening and disorienting those around the blast.

sapud83
3rd Jun 2009, 07:59
This is not good option to have so many different arrows, should be as always few basic arrows available.

Qazi
3rd Jun 2009, 08:42
An Arrow Arrow: An Arrow that fires more arrows once it hits something.

DarthEnder
3rd Jun 2009, 08:43
Copied this from my post in the Armory thread:

Ammo:
Crossbow Bolt

Water Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Water Crystal) - Douses fires, cleans blood, leaves pools of water that remove scent trails etc.
Ice Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Water Crystal + Winter Resin) - Freezes Enemies, Turns puddles into ice patches, makes platforms on water etc.

Flame Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Fire Crystal) - Ignites flamable objects, burns zombie bodies, replaces flares from previous games
Sunburst Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Fire Crystal + Summer Resin) - Explosive fire, replaces fire arrow of previous games

Moss Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Earth Crystal) - creates sound and scent absorbing patch of moss, will also silence a target if shot in the face, hides scent trails
Vine Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Earth Crystal + Spring Resin) - Creates a rope of vine that can be climbed when fired into a wooden surface, will also bind and crush a target, replaces Rope arrows

Wind Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Air Crystal) - Creates a blast of air that pushes over objects and briefly knocks guards off their feet
Lightning Bolt - (Crossbow Bolt + Air Crystal + Autumn Resin) - Creats a burst of electricity that knocks out guards and machines

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 10:28
make a arrows and bow the same,make completely new set of bolts,that go hand in hand with a crossbow,and its arrows serve a completely different purpose as compared to the bow/arrows.some of the ideas i liked are:

Portal arrow: Shoot it. Wherever it lands you get transported there instantly. (Should be very rare,not bought,only given before missions,or found in mission (there was already a portal in the bonehoard,so it can be done..))

The following,could replace,or be used as an alternative to oil flasks,mine,or even noisemaker arrows,or a combination of all 3,as they distract,and damage enemies..

Rage arrow: Hit a target. It will attack his allies until taken down.(Very rare,expensive)

Necromancer arrow: It kills with one hit. Whoever the body comes back as a zombie (or haunt if you kill a hammerite)=(noisemaker+...anything that does damage)

Wind Bolt - Creates a blast of air that pushes over objects and briefly knocks guards off their feet=(noisemaker+oil flask)

Thunder arrow - Causes a massive bang, deafening and disorienting those around the blast
=(noisemaker+flash bomb)

Ice arrow: Freezes water so you can walk on it (just like T2X) but you can also shoot at a guard to freeze him. And break him to pieces with your blackjack.=(oil flask+water arrow)(if shot on the ground makes slippery)

Zahr Dalsk
3rd Jun 2009, 12:49
Gatling RPC Arrow - Once fired, the Gatling RPC Arrow's barrels begin to spin and fire multiple Rocket Propelled Chainsaws.

ToMegaTherion
3rd Jun 2009, 13:44
I think that there should be special arrows designed for individual forum members. All meant in good fun of course!

GManPro arrow: Any object hit by this arrow reverts to however it looked and acted in Thief 2.

DarthEnder arrow: Creates illusionary zombies at impact. Nearby guards shriek and run away.

ZylonBane arrow: When fired at a group of guards, causes one to utter a memorable one-line insult and everyone else to attack him.

NewHorizon arrow: Garrett takes damage until he learns from his mistakes.

Platinumoxicity arrow: Kills little girls. The big meanie!

ToMegaTherion arrow: Upon striking an object, opens a console that allows the object's properties to be edited in any way the player sees fit. Also allows editing of other objects, objectives, game mechanics, plot, and the player's real life.

Vasanx arrow: Pastes screenshots from T1 and T2.

I want an arrow that causes whatever struck to gleam like loot, but I couldn't find anyone who likes the TDS loot glint, so if you are such a person, stand up, be counted, and have an arrow named after you!

Blade_hunter
3rd Jun 2009, 13:58
I like your sense of humor ^^

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 14:34
I think that there should be special arrows designed for individual forum members. All meant in good fun of course!

GManPro arrow: Any object hit by this arrow reverts to however it looked and acted in Thief 2.

DarthEnder arrow: Creates illusionary zombies at impact. Nearby guards shriek and run away.

ZylonBane arrow: When fired at a group of guards, causes one to utter a memorable one-line insult and everyone else to attack him.

NewHorizon arrow: Garrett takes damage until he learns from his mistakes.

Platinumoxicity arrow: Kills little girls. The big meanie!

ToMegaTherion arrow: Upon striking an object, opens a console that allows the object's properties to be edited in any way the player sees fit. Also allows editing of other objects, objectives, game mechanics, plot, and the player's real life.

Vasanx arrow: Pastes screenshots from T1 and T2.

I want an arrow that causes whatever struck to gleam like loot, but I couldn't find anyone who likes the TDS loot glint, so if you are such a person, stand up, be counted, and have an arrow named after you!

DOnt forget the THI4F arrow,causes all guards in immiediate vicinity of arrow to start sp4aking L33t....

Direlord
3rd Jun 2009, 15:45
out of all the arrows in the OP i'd just say a lightning arrow causing a short stun on a living creature (much like a tazer) or shorts out machines and electric lights.

Blade_hunter
3rd Jun 2009, 16:53
I think the water arrow is the arrow that allow us to disable machines, no ?

DarthEnder
3rd Jun 2009, 17:00
Only if they have exposed boilers.

A lightning arrow would work on things like cameras and turrets as well.

Also, maybe you could use it for the opposite purpose as well. Like you find an old broken down lift where the motor is dead and shooting it with a lightning arrow charges it up long enough for you to ride it up to wherever it goes.

Direlord
3rd Jun 2009, 17:04
I think the water arrow is the arrow that allow us to disable machines, no ?

Yeah in MA you had to shoot 2 water arrows in the back of the golems hitting their boiler grate to take them out.

If they do update the machines have them not have the grate or in a place you can't easily shoot a water arrow into. You would then need a lightning arrow to take them out. Possible still needing 2 for a golem.

I think it should also be used on electric lights much like a water arrow for torches.

kin
3rd Jun 2009, 17:59
The stinky arrow. Shoot in the room from the window everyone runs out.

xDarknessFallsx
4th Jun 2009, 01:25
TDS arrow: Everything you shoot it at gets messed up.

Good work ToMegaTherion. I also cracked up at your post.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 01:29
Flash Arrow - Equiped with a flashbomb style arrow head, causes creatures and guards to be blinded when standing next to the impact area. Also damages undead like a flashbomb.

massimilianogoi
4th Jun 2009, 01:31
Ice arrow: Freezes water so you can walk on it (just like T2X) but you can also shoot at a guard to freeze him. And break him to pieces with your blackjack. <-------------- this.

massimilianogoi
4th Jun 2009, 01:34
Barf arrow: Made of burrick barfs. Hitting a spot with this will make it smell so badly everybody will get away from it. If you hit a guard everyone will flee from him.


BWHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAH http://www.ttlg.com/forums/images/smilies/laff.gif

Thieffanman
4th Jun 2009, 02:00
I like the shock, mine, and rage arrows. I think those could work :).

--Thieffanman

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 02:33
Flash Arrow - Equiped with a flashbomb style arrow head, causes creatures and guards to be blinded when standing next to the impact area. Also damages undead like a flashbomb.

I'd call it a light arrow just to keep with the elemental theme in thief's arrows. It should kill an undead instantly instead of how flashbombs always take multiple shots. And it could behave like light, I.E. travel really fast all the time, and always travel in a straight line.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 02:34
I'd call it a light arrow just to keep with the elemental theme in thief's arrows. It should kill an undead instantly instead of how flashbombs always take multiple shots. And it could behave like light, I.E. travel really fast all the time, and always travel in a straight line.

Noisemaker arrows and rope arrows aren't elemental, so flash arrow is perfectly fine.

xDarknessFallsx
4th Jun 2009, 04:11
Flash Arrow - Equiped with a flashbomb style arrow head, causes creatures and guards to be blinded when standing next to the impact area. Also damages undead like a flashbomb.

9 times out of 10 I don't like the thought of more/new arrows... nay, 99 times out of 100. Most arrow ideas seem gimmicky beyond Garrett's standard selection. However, this is the one new arrow I wouldn't mind having in my arsenal. I'd actually prefer using it to the flash bomb grenades because I wouldn't have to risk getting as close to the enemy and I'd enjoy using it more than the grenade. Then again, I hardly ever use any weapons except for blackjack and broadhead arrows, so I wouldn't be pining for this... but it'd be nice to have the option especially if it's useful for undead. This, or the smoke arrow... but I'd prefer this one I think. I'd be okay with sticking with the flash bomb, but if they have to make a new arrow, this would be my choice.


It's spelled Garrett, with two "Ts." Not Garret with one. It's in scrolls, box art, instruction manuals, everything, so let's get it right.
Garret would love this aroww in his arsinal.

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 05:30
Benny Arrow - Anyone you shoot with this, be they male or female, guard or civilian, human, undead, or beast of any kind, begins talking in Benny's voice and using Benny phrases.

I would personally use this arrow constantly. Especially on burricks.

Alex50
4th Jun 2009, 12:07
Collaider arrow - Creates micro black hole. Involves in itself all environmental subjects and people. It is possible to establish the filter for flying by loots.

massimilianogoi
4th Jun 2009, 13:21
Benny Arrow - Anyone you shoot with this, be they male or female, guard or civilian, human, undead, or beast of any kind, begins talking in Benny's voice and using Benny phrases.

I would personally use this arrow constantly. Especially on burricks.

No, this is a nigthmare!!

Blade_hunter
4th Jun 2009, 13:56
Wow when I see that thread I see some humoristic things :P
Just for fun:
Laxative arrow: makes the infected guards farting (combined with the fire arrow you obtain a random rocket guard)
Whiskey arrow: make the guards completely drunk
Ass seeking arrow: an arrow that tracks the guard's ass an make them running and screaming because they can't remove that hurting arrow
Cupid arrow: make the target in love of the first creature on its sight
Virgin arrow: creates a beautiful nude virgin to distract the guard (combined with the Cupid arrow you got some devastating results.)
Chastity belt arrow: an arrow that put a chastity belt into the target
Bee swarm arrow: an arrow that releases a cloud of furious bees that attacks guards

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

esme
4th Jun 2009, 15:22
hole arrow - shoot it at the floor and you have an instant bottomless pit that guards can fall into, shoot it at a wall and instant way to the other side, shoot it at the bottom of a boat and the boat sinks, shoot an AI with it and they walk around with a big hole in them and all the other AI throw up when they see it, after 30 seconds the hole closes
tile arrow - shoot it at a soft surface and a patch of noisy tiles spread over the surface, perfect for tap dancing and locating invisible patrolling AI
anosmia arrow - shoot it at guards who make the "what's that smell, it's like rotting meat" comment they lose their sense of smell for 30 seconds
awareness arrow - shoot an AI with it and they become acutely aware that they are just an AI in a video game who could be turned off at any second and are paralysed by existential angst

kin
4th Jun 2009, 16:56
Don't forget the normal broadhead.

MasterTaffer
5th Jun 2009, 07:50
Jackson arrow - Fire at a group of undead to force them to dance to Thriller.

TafferPants
5th Jun 2009, 07:52
Jackson arrow - Fire at a group of undead to force them to dance to Thriller.

oO;
interesting Easter Egg that would be.....

esme
5th Jun 2009, 13:21
Jackson arrow - Fire at a group of undead to force them to dance to Thriller.

:lmao: I would SO pay good money to see that :lmao: :thumb:

kabatta
5th Jun 2009, 15:31
burrick arrow- it's tip is an burrick egg that hatches a full grown burrick on the spot. npc run in fear
nude arrow-makes the guard's clothes dissapear. other guards laugh at him as he runs home
furry arrow-makes the guard go postal and ravage all in the way until he is tired
pheromone arrow-makes the target loveable by burricks (lethal with the burrick arrows)
pie arrows-blins an opponent with a tasty desert
oil arrow-makes of puddle of oil on the selected location.

Hypevosa
8th Jun 2009, 07:30
I actually already suggested that be the case Jtr, but it's nice to see I'm not alone. I suggested it over in the 20 arrow quiver test thing, saying that if they limit us to 20 arrows, make it 20 broadheads, then let us carry the accessory heads separately. You in essence only get 20 arrows per level outside those you find, but I liked the idea of having all my options open during a mission as long as I had the heads. Difficulty could also tie to the arrow cap, or maybe the option to buy a larger quiver. Most players could probably do with 20 though.

Here's the link: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=89186&page=2

lefty
8th Jun 2009, 17:24
I liked the web arrow idea, and the blackout + shock arrow could be combined. Make 'em noisy as a downside.

Yeah, I know it's a joke thread, but those ones could actually be useful

KSingh77
8th Jun 2009, 21:41
Thief's arrow:Fire it once at a guard,he'll get pissed and come chasing after you.

Crypto
8th Jun 2009, 22:20
Inspired by blade hunter (Serious suggestion):

Thunder arrow - Causes a massive bang, deafening and disorienting those around the blast.

It's called a flash bomb.

The trouble with these ideas is that so many options make the game too easy. The web arrow, for example—guards can't open the door to the room you're fishing around in? Where's the risk in that?

I'd rather stick with what we've got.

Hypevosa
8th Jun 2009, 23:06
It's called a flash bomb.

The trouble with these ideas is that so many options make the game too easy. The web arrow, for example—guards can't open the door to the room you're fishing around in? Where's the risk in that?

I'd rather stick with what we've got.

no, flashbombs make people blind. Really if they hear which way I went they should run after me... I'm suggesting making them deaf so as long as they don't SEE me they don't know which way I've gone. Thunder arrows could also have a quasi permanent effect, where if you actually get it within a foot of the guard's head they are deaf... period. Much like how the moss arrows could choke people in TDS (which I thought was actually pretty cool...)

Crypto
8th Jun 2009, 23:10
Right, but it's basically the same effect. *shrug*

We don't need a quasi-permanent effect. That would make each level a walk in the park.

Hypevosa
8th Jun 2009, 23:22
Right, but it's basically the same effect. *shrug*

We don't need a quasi-permanent effect. That would make each level a walk in the park.

well if you hand the player 50 of em... yeah it would. You'd just treat them like invisibility potions in TMA, there's only like... what, 12 in the entire game? (nah there has to be more...)

Situation room:

Area with lots of light and a not loud surface, use a flashbomb

Area with little light and a loud surface, use a thunder arrow.

kabatta
10th Jun 2009, 06:52
distress arrow- makes an opponent run in random directions screaming
bot arrow- fills the level with mechanical beasts or cherubs
virus arrow- turn the alive opponent into a zombie (think it was said, i forgeth)

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 20:20
wow, I didn't know there were so many invisibility potions... I guess it's because I only used like 4 in the entire game XD. My point was just as long as you don't shove them down a player's throat there's no problem with giving the player some good powerful items

DarthEnder
11th Jun 2009, 07:48
Soulforge has just the right amount. One to get past the mechacherub, and one to get past him again on the way out of that area. :p

Platinumoxicity
11th Jun 2009, 09:09
Brown-Noise arrow: When fired close to a guard, it immediately makes him crap his pants. If fired past many guards in a row, all of them suffer the same, pants-soiling effect.

lurker667
11th Jun 2009, 16:28
Thief doesn't need specialty arrows. Only specialty arrowheads! Think about the original games: you didn't find a water arrow, you found a water crystal. And so on. Most of garrets tools should be droppable, throwable, or attached onto a broadhead arrow/shaft to be fired.


Broadheads. The ordinary arrow, easily found.

Water Crystal. Can be attached to a broadhead and fired, or used on nearby torches with a cloth. Or dropped on bloodstains and such.

Gas Crystal. Fired from arrow, dropped (mine), thrown (bomb), or applied to cloth and used like chloroform.

Moss Crystal. Fired from arrow, dropped/thrown, applied to boots. Expandable w/water?

Noisemaker/whistle. Can make noise where you are, shot, or attached to some unsuspecting rat/burrick/what-have-you.

Rope. Manually attachable to grills, beams, etc. Fired at wooden surfaces. Used to tie things. Swingable. Fire at some loot/enemies and yank them back?

Vine Crystal. Think vertical moss. Makes walls climbable. Entraps enemies?

Flare. Temporary light, ignites torches and oil. Held, dropped, thrown, fired.

Oil. Slippery and flammable. Floats on water. Poured/thrown/fired. Ignited with flare or mine.

Flash Bomb. Thrown normally, dropped as a mine (timer?), awesome when fired atop arrow. Aim for roof and get a brief glimpse at the whole cavern/room.

Holy Water. Area of Effect splash damage on undead. Thrown or fired. Consecrate/bless things? Usable on sword/dagger/blackjack?

Frogbeast Egg. Dropped, lobbed, or fired at enemy for a nasty surprise.

Scouting Orb. Extraordinary versatility when combined shot with arrow. Fire in second story window, shoot up in the air for birds-eye view, etc.

And so on...


Just trying to expand options, which is what Thief is all about: ingenuity. Perhaps crossbow bolts for short range, bow and arrow for long range, magic arrows unaffected by gravity (so they shoot perfectly straight), cloth for water/gas/oil(?), timers for flashbombs/flares/gas/mines(?). All sorts of options and delivery systems. The more the better, right?


Lurker
(and then there's combinations...)

jtr7
11th Jun 2009, 16:42
An opportunity to revive this classic:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/t3cartoon.jpg

Hamadriyad
11th Jun 2009, 16:54
I don't think we need more arrow/arrowhead types.And we don't need upgrades.We need more strategies to use them. (example:moss arrows in TDS.we can use moss arrows on guards.)
Also, in the thief universe, there are only four crystals(fire,water,moss,gas.)They can't add a new crystal suddenly, they shouldn't. Because, those crystals are natural, they have not been made by humans.(at least I think so.)
And I am against crossbow. (Iooks like machine gun)
But timers for bombs would be nice.

lurker667
11th Jun 2009, 17:03
More arrowhead ideas:

Coin. Dropped/thrown/shot. Guards will investigate and attempt to procure.

Ice Crystal. Dropped/thrown/shot/applied. Freezes water, kills plants. Combos with water (frozen solid), moss (extra loud), alternate with fire to shatter.

Acid crystal. Dropped/thrown/shot/applied? Quietly dissolves glass, padlocks, grates(?), poison.

Stench crystal. Dropped/thrown/shot/applied. Smells like rotting flesh. Makes guards flee, attracts carnivores.


Lurker
(feel free to expand on ideas)

lurker667
11th Jun 2009, 17:15
I don't think we need more arrow/arrowhead types.And we don't need upgrades.We need more strategies to use them. (example:moss arrows in TDS.we can use moss arrows on guards.)
Also, in the thief universe, there are only four crystals(fire,water,moss,gas.)They can't add a new crystal suddenly, they shouldn't. Because, those crystals are natural, they have not been made by humans.(at least I think so.)
And I am against crossbow. (Iooks like machine gun)
But timers for bombs would be nice.

My main point is that we can put equipment Garret uses already onto an arrow, thus increasing strategy. Scouting Orb arrow, Flash arrow, that sort of thing. They don't have to be crystals per se, just small vials for oil or holy water (already established), or smaller versions of flares, flashbombs, and orbs that are attachable to arrowshafts.

I was thinking of a mini-crossbow, attached to Garrets forearm. Faster and less visible, but shorter range and less accurate than his bow. Again, more strategy, not upgrades.


Lurker

hexhunter
11th Jun 2009, 17:29
The main 4 crystals are natural, but vine crystals were made by Viktoria, and no doubt other types of crystals could also by made.

Vine arrows should be able to restrains guards also...

AbysmalGale
11th Jun 2009, 17:40
Exactly why would Garrett need more types of arrowheads?

Thieffanman
11th Jun 2009, 18:09
I was thinking of a mini-crossbow, attached to Garrets forearm. Faster and less visible, but shorter range and less accurate than his bow. Again, more strategy, not upgrades.

I mentioned something like this in another post. While the bow-and-arrow combo has proven itself as workable in the Thief universe, it would be cool to see Garrett have and/or use different types of weaponry. This would be made easier by having arrowheads, crystals, whatever that can be affixed to different types of missile weapons.

In the past, the arrowheads were largely natural, and found lying around. These new crystals, vials, whatever, can be man-made or artificial; that's entirely up to the developers to design.

The main thing to remember is to keep *stealth* as the primary method of operation in the game, regardless of how Garrett is armed. In the end, that is up to the developers to create, and how the player wishes to play the character.

--Thieffanman

Hamadriyad
11th Jun 2009, 18:41
I never needed more arrows. There were in T2X and I didn't use.(except to see how it works and for fun.but not for I need them)
original tools are enough.
"Mystery, shadows, silence: these are my tools."

Hypevosa
11th Jun 2009, 21:46
Garret's not going to tie every thing he uses to an arrow... it has very detrimental effects on the ability for an arrow to fly. Flashbombs, scouting orbs, beast eggs, ANYTHING aside from the elemental crystals is not the proper shape or weight for an arrow, you would quarter the range of the item (meaning it might as well be thrown), or if irregular enough just completely divert it from it's path.

Thief is not about ingenuity, it's about sneaking about and stealing as much as you can and (eventually) saving the city through some contrived plot. Something that helps in thief is ingenuity, but that's being smart about how you use the tools you already have, not tying a flashbomb to an arrow and having it go 2 feet out of your bow, hitting the ground, and blinding yourself, or having the arrow shoot through the flashbomb and it's casing just fall at your feet.

We don't need a thousand options and a thousand arrow heads, or potential arrow heads. The elemental crystals, the broad head, and the rope arrow are enough. Yes, maybe we could add a few new elements like light and dark or thunder, and maybe there could be a few easter egg arrows such as the benny arrow, but Garrett's not going to tie a tool to an arrow, he's not STUPID.

AbysmalGale
11th Jun 2009, 21:52
Garret's not going to tie every thing he uses to an arrow... it has very detrimental effects on the ability for an arrow to fly. Flashbombs, scouting orbs, beast eggs, ANYTHING aside from the elemental crystals is not the proper shape or weight for an arrow, you would quarter the range of the item (meaning it might as well be thrown), or if irregular enough just completely divert it from it's path.

Thief is not about ingenuity, it's about sneaking about and stealing as much as you can and (eventually) saving the city through some contrived plot. Something that helps in thief is ingenuity, but that's being smart about how you use the tools you already have, not tying a flashbomb to an arrow and having it go 2 feet out of your bow, hitting the ground, and blinding yourself, or having the arrow shoot through the flashbomb and it's casing just fall at your feet.

We don't need a thousand options and a thousand arrow heads, or potential arrow heads. The elemental crystals, the broad head, and the rope arrow are enough. Yes, maybe we could add a few new elements like light and dark or thunder, and maybe there could be a few easter egg arrows such as the benny arrow, but Garrett's not going to tie a tool to an arrow, he's not STUPID.

Seconded!

Thieffanman
11th Jun 2009, 23:10
An opportunity to revive this classic:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/t3cartoon.jpg

I'd pay money to see a kebab arrow in T4. :)

. . . and I'd pay *more* money to see a pregnancy tester arrow in T4, too. :D

--Thieffanman

Nothke
11th Jun 2009, 23:37
no, I don't think garrett needs more arrows... but if there happens to be a new one it would be nice to be completely different, for a completely different strategy. I mean don't make a flare arrow, you already have fire arows that lights up everything and ignites oil .. it would be good to se like that pregnancy tester for example, only works on women... :)

kaekaelyn
12th Jun 2009, 00:00
Benny arrow. 'Nuff said.

lurker667
12th Jun 2009, 06:25
I'd actually like to replace the fire arrow with a flare arrow. Always felt too much like a rocket launcher.

In a weird sort of way, I'm trying to reduce the amount Garret is carrying: less shafts. aving 40 broadheads, 20 water arrows, and dozen of Fire, Rope, Gas, and Noisemaker arrows each stretches credibility. >100 Arrows? No wonder he has trouble mantling. Two dozen arrowshafts and a small assortment of arrowheads seems much more manageable.

I want to limit Thief to less than a dozen items that can be used as many ways as the player can think of.


Lurker
(Also, I like the superhero Hawkeye)

Hamadriyad
12th Jun 2009, 16:48
We have four cyristals and we don't have to use them just for one purpose. With water arrows, we can clean blood stains also. We can use moss arrows on guards.(in TDS). But not enough in my opinion. They should give us puzzles,and we should able to use arrows with different ways to solve them. Rope arrows and other types including.
For example: rope arrows are not just for climbing.We can use them to pull something or drop something.Maybe we can drop a crate to guard's head.:)
Any suggestions?

Platinumoxicity
12th Jun 2009, 19:49
Firing a gas arrow into a torch or a fireplace could result in a high powered flashy explosion that would blind anyone looking at it like a flashbomb and throw nearby enemies down to the ground.

Firing a moss arrow to the floor and then firing a water arrows to it could grow the moss patch taller, so it would absorb the hit when you drop down to it so you don't take damage from slightly higher falls. But if an enemy sees this huge planty thing growing out of the tile floor, he'll immediately know something fishy is going on.

Firing a water arrow to an electric lamp could make the lamp flicker, so if there is a guard nearby and he sees the lamp behaving like that, he'll be drawn from his post to see what's wrong. He'll slap the lamp a few times and it works normally again. During this time you've already snuck by him.

Zahr Dalsk
12th Jun 2009, 20:07
Firing a moss arrow to the floor and then firing a water arrows to it could grow the moss patch taller, so it would absorb the hit when you drop down to it so you don't take damage from slightly higher falls. But if an enemy sees this huge planty thing growing out of the tile floor, he'll immediately know something fishy is going on.


How about blood arrows (or vials of blood)? Plants be grows better when you feeders them with manfool blood.

Hamadriyad
12th Jun 2009, 20:14
Actually moss arrows were growing with water arrows in TDS.(If I am not wrong) but probably didn't absorb the hit.
And gas arrows (in TMA or TDP or both I don't know)can extinguish torches.:D

Water arrows may frozen in cold weather (very cold,snowy and iced)and voila!You have an ice arrow.You can shoot a guard with that and he may be partly frozen in a while.

Zahr Dalsk
12th Jun 2009, 20:17
And gas arrows (in TMA and TDP or both I don't know)can extinguish torches.:D


Aye, that's so, though why anyone would waste them on that (aside from testing to see if it works) is beyond me.

Nothke
12th Jun 2009, 21:02
Water arrows may frozen in cold weather (very cold,snowy and iced)and voila!You have an ice arrow.You can shoot a guard with that and he may be partly frozen in a while.

interesting, but not freeze the guard, cold would make water into icicle and stab the guard, therefor being similar to broadhead...


Firing a moss arrow to the floor and then firing a water arrows to it could grow the moss patch taller, so it would absorb the hit when you drop down to it so you don't take damage from slightly higher falls. But if an enemy sees this huge planty thing growing out of the tile floor, he'll immediately know something fishy is going on.

interesting...


Firing a water arrow to an electric lamp could make the lamp flicker, so if there is a guard nearby and he sees the lamp behaving like that, he'll be drawn from his post to see what's wrong. He'll slap the lamp a few times and it works normally again. During this time you've already snuck by him.


Anyway, how about creating a puddle to electrocute AI (I'd rather it was designed for monster missions, not humans, but that's me. I imagine spiders twitching violently and smoking...)? How about splashing on hot stoves to make a cloud of steam?

VERY interesting... I would implement that!

namron
13th Jun 2009, 01:53
NO WAY no new arrows the one listed by Inspector Drept soem of them are just lane stupid sory but they are and i think we should stick to the originel ones

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 03:13
I've thought of a knock-out arrow that would require skill and accuracy, therefore having a handicap built in, but I in no way think it really needs to be implemented. Looking at the original Moss Arrow model:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/thief/images/a/af/MossArrow.JPG

...I imagined it as a metal ball on the end that would knock an AI out with a headshot. Player is screwed if player misses. It would also serve the function of firing a broadhead at a hard surface as a kind of noisemaker arrow.

player reloads an old save and just tries again... I really like the idea, BUT there's the issue of loading. Really, though I LOVE being able to save my game anytime I want, I feel my experience would be more genuine if I couldn't just reload an old save...

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 03:25
They could institute a system where you get X number of saves in a mission based on difficulty (like 1 for expert). And then there would be one slot permanently there where you could quit and it would save the game there for you to resume. But then if the level bugs out you'd lose all your progress.... >_> saving systems are a *****...

Hamadriyad
13th Jun 2009, 08:35
interesting, but not freeze the guard, cold would make water into icicle and stab the guard, therefor being similar to broadhead...


!

If the arrow freeze in the air, yes.But water in water crystal is spreading after hit.In that case, may freeze the guard in my opinion.

fayfuya
13th Jun 2009, 08:35
You guys wishes for too easy game, a flash arrow, a morphine arrow, rage arrow wtf is all this?! it's supposed to be a harder game, i think Element arrows with rope arrows are enough, with gas and noisemarkers and broadhead arrows of course, we don't need more than these, but i believe that giving the option to buy stronger bows at the shops for high price could be a nice idea.

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 08:38
I'm pretty sure most of the arrows are a joke... and don't mention weapon upgrades or you might get sworn out by half the people. Apparently they'd destroy the game or something...

Platinumoxicity
13th Jun 2009, 08:57
You guys wishes for too easy game, a flash arrow, a morphine arrow, rage arrow wtf is all this?! it's supposed to be a harder game, i think Element arrows with rope arrows are enough, with gas and noisemarkers and broadhead arrows of course, we don't need more than these, but i believe that giving the option to buy stronger bows at the shops for high price could be a nice idea.

Buying stronger bow for a high price is a bad idea too if you want a game that gradually gets harder to the end. A game that gets harder in each level, but simultaneously give you a new tool or move, doesn't really get harder to the end, it equalizes the game to a medium difficulty soup. If you want a harder game, you should be able to buy crappier tools for high price as the game progressess.

All this stuff about unlocking better tools as the game progresses is stupid. For example: you have short bow in the first mission that doesn't shoot very far, then in the 10th mission, that's supposed to be a challenge, you have a long bow that shoots very far. At the same time as the game is trying to make some things harder to the end, it makes some things easier that you used to have to work for in the easier levels.
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1657/diff.png

Sebra
13th Jun 2009, 09:10
I want to use those magic crystalls without arrows too.
Why do we need to shoot an water arrow to the torch we can touch?
Why do we need an arrow to make a moss stain under feet?
Why do we need to simulate "I want to shoot an fire arrow" to use it as a very short range light source?

And I want be able to shoot rope arrow with tail attached to hand. If rope is too short I just pull it back.
Not to be applied to vine arrow. It grows after hit and must be unrecoverable.

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 10:06
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1657/diff.png

While I like the drawing, I still think it gives far too much impact to upgrades... so your bow shoots with a little less arc? that doesn't make the game SUPER easy. You still have to sneak everywhere and not be seen, and not be stupid. Your silent shoes would just ruin the entire game practically....

If upgrades are included, it really shouldn't be something that makes the game easier, so much as it conveniences the player. The difference is convenience is an "Oh, that's nice" like having a little less arc on your bow, or having site pins put in to 50 M, or having your sword blackened for when you are sneaking around hammer haunts and just need something for if one brushes you by accident... And why do you have knockout broadheads when gas arrows already exist, and they can take out 10 people at once, instead of one. You should be arguing for those and against gas arrows if you want the game to become harder XD.

Bottom line is, in a thief game upgrades should provide only convenience to the player, not really change the difficulty of play. Ideally upgrades should do this to a difficulty curve...

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa18/Hypevosa/Difficulty.jpg

Platinumoxicity
13th Jun 2009, 10:44
Like I keep repeating, heh heh, I like subtle upgrades with a spike in difficulty that makes the upgrade only take the edge off but is almost not really an upgrade. No power-ups, no increase of the PC's power. Challenge the player so the player creates his/her own power-up as skills are learned or honed. Empower the player, not the player character.

That's what I wanted to say. If the character has access to all tools from the start he can LEARN to use them better, thus becoming a better thief. This is not simulated role-play with experience points like Final Fantasy but this isn't equipment-based sports either, like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. This is skill and preception-based tactical game, like Hitman.

Hamadriyad
13th Jun 2009, 11:16
By the way, this thread is not about new arrows. why moved here?

Nate
13th Jun 2009, 13:46
Ugghhh, people are still talking about upgrades.

ToMegaTherion
13th Jun 2009, 14:36
It's unfortunate that a joke thread and some serious threads have been merged.

Hamadriyad
13th Jun 2009, 15:26
It's unfortunate that a joke thread and some serious threads have been merged.

Exactly. I don't like that.

MasterTaffer
13th Jun 2009, 18:51
What do you guys think of arrow shafts being left in the game world on a purely cosmetic stance. It's always bugged me that when I fire a water arrow, there was never an arrow shaft laying under the torch. I don't want guards to be able to find them, I'de just like to see a broken arrow shaft remain after I fire an arrow.

Hamadriyad
13th Jun 2009, 19:10
Yes but how will we retrieve them before they find?If they find a arrow shaft, they should be full alert.
"Somebody in here, find him and crush him.":)

Nate
13th Jun 2009, 19:12
What do you guys think of arrow shafts being left in the game world on a purely cosmetic stance. It's always bugged me that when I fire a water arrow, there was never an arrow shaft laying under the torch. I don't want guards to be able to find them, I'de just like to see a broken arrow shaft remain after I fire an arrow.

Yeah, it would be more realistic......haha, Garrett would have to pick up the piece so guards wouldn't be able to figure out how the torch went out. I don't know, but it is an interesting idea though.

MasterTaffer
13th Jun 2009, 19:24
Yeah, it would be more realistic......but is it worth the time to implement?

I'm less concerned about it being realistic. I just think it would be more visually appealing. And I've seen it done in other games with older engines before, so it shouldn't be too hard to impliment. Heck, you were able to retrieve arrows in wood, soil and carpet in previous Thief games as well. It's not like Garrett can fire arrows a mile a minute and it will bog down the engine as a result.

Here's some interesting ways to impliment them:


Broadhead Arrow: Will stick out of any creature you fire them into, though they can't be retrieve in this circumstance. If fired against stone, tile or any other hard surface they will break and can't be retrieved (as well as make a loud "clack.") If fired into wood, capret, soil or any other soft surface, they stick out and can be retrieved.

Water Arrow: The arrow shaft with a broken crystal head will lay under the impact sight and cannot be retrieved. If the developer is feeling aprticularly creative, put a puddle around it as well that will dry up after maybe a minute.

Fire Arrow: The arrow shaft visually burns up as it flies away from impact, leaving nothing behind.

Moss Arrow: The arrow shaft will stick up from its impact sight at the center of the moss carpet it creates. The angle of the arrow depends on the angle of approach. Can't be retrieved.

Rope Arrow: Should work the same as it always has when fired into soft materials. When fired into hard, I think it should be retrievable as the arrow shaft has always been described as "reinforced."

Gas Arrow: Should lay near the impact sight with a broken crystal. Cannot be retrieved.

Noisemaker: Work the same as it did in the first two Thief games. Should be retrievable.
As for guards finding and being alerted by arrow shafts in the environment, I say no. I simply want this for a visual pleasure rather than a gameplay mechanic. It would be unappealing to have to go and collect your broken and unusable arrow shafts. After all, if I'm playing Hitman and I have to retrieve my bullet casing, I'de just be annoyed rather than impressed with the realism.

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 19:27
I like it, but they shouldn't be able to see them in full darkness... it's an arrow shaft ya know? Maybe with a little light. That way too players can put out torches and not immediately be shafted when a guard comes by... no pun intended I promise.

MasterTaffer
13th Jun 2009, 19:29
I like it, but they shouldn't be able to see them in full darkness... it's an arrow shaft ya know? Maybe with a little light. That way too players can put out torches and not immediately be shafted when a guard comes by... no pun intended I promise.

I just said they shouldn't see them at all. It should just be a visual treat, not an actual gameplay mechanic. Does anyone read my posts all the way through or are people just reading what they want to read?

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 19:39
Sorry, I just thought that they should notice them too, I just didn't say so... Like I think they should also pick up noisemakers if they find them and check'em out, maybe snap it in half ;D

Hamadriyad
13th Jun 2009, 20:17
I want my thread back, please! Different ways to using different arrows(the old ones,no new arrows):D

MasterTaffer
13th Jun 2009, 20:18
I want my thread back, please! Different ways to using different arrows(the old ones,no new arrows):D

No, it's my thread now. You go away.* :rasp:



*Sarcasm

Hamadriyad
13th Jun 2009, 20:32
No, it's my thread now. You go away.* :rasp:



*Sarcasm

Ok. Go on!;)

Hypevosa
13th Jun 2009, 23:47
I just have this image of a slightly hardened bouncy ball that sounds like footsteps being thrown in such a way to simulate someone running down a hall. XD

Inspector Drept
13th Jun 2009, 23:59
Yay, my thread was merged!
It´s ok. It was supposed to be a joke thread to keep bitterness away. But I kinda enjoyed the idea of a web arrow and a smoke arrow.
That´s the cool side of modding, you can make the fun stuff. There´s even a modder who´s making the Portal Arrows for TMA fan missions.

ShadowMist
14th Jun 2009, 04:40
Many interesting Ideas. It brings up a question i once thought of long ago; why not use broadhead arrows to take out electrical lights? I apologize if its already been discused.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 04:55
while theoretically possible, the glass is apparently too thick... plus the noise would be extremely loud. Did you ever break that skylight in life of the party? INSANE number of decibels for breaking glass in the universe.

ShadowMist
14th Jun 2009, 23:17
I hadn't thought of that. Then again, it could be a personal choice, like between a blackjack KO and a kill.

Hamadriyad
15th Jun 2009, 08:31
If you firing a fire arrow into water(river or something), water may turn fog and guards can't see us in a while maybe.(until fog is passed.)

Shadow Blade
19th Jun 2009, 11:41
:DI just had a crazy idea and just wanted to see what you guys would think:


Another use for a moss arrow:

Shoot it on lights and the side it hits the moss grows on and blocks out the light coming from that direction

Hamadriyad
19th Jun 2009, 12:03
That is reasonable. I like that.

esme
19th Jun 2009, 13:40
That's how I handled holy water arrows in my T3EnhancEd editor....except it only applied to water arrows. Use a holy water flask and it turned 3 water arrows into Holy Water Arrows...pretty much exactly what happened in TDP & TMA, it blessed all the water in the water arrows you carried and turned them into holy water arrows

TheEye
6th Jul 2009, 10:42
most of the ideas are good but some are just too overpowered or stupid. necromancer arrow?!!?
these are my suggestions:
poisonous arrow - little initial damage but draws from the target's health and wears them out
the smoke arrow was a good idea
the web arrow but just for sticking opponents to the ground ( and only obtainable if you kill giant spiders)
decoy arrow - a combo of a noisemaker arrow and a gas/ land mine (should be rare)
trickster's arrow - a moss arrow that makes opponents fall and choke in the moss (like TDS or whatever) and does damage if the opponents are hammerites (should be very rare as well)
builder's arrow - a very heavy arrow that can't be fired at a great distance but is equal to 3 blows with a hammer

last but no least: taffer's arrow - transforms its holder into a treant, turns them invisible forever, summons a dozen apparitions at their side, kills everyone within a hundred feet, brings Victoria back to life and invents powdered sugar.

[PT] Garret [PT]
13th Jul 2009, 10:07
Smoke arrow: Makes a big black smoke where it hits. Good to make guards temporarily blind if they are inside it. Or to avoid bowmen firing at you. Or to draw attention to the smoke while you´re far away from it.

Web arrow: If it hits a door it won´t open (unless you clean it with a water arrow). If it hits the floor then guards will be stickied to it if they pass by. If it hits a window you can break it with your blackjack and it won´t make a noise. If it hits a wall you can climb it.

Necromancer arrow: It kills with one hit. Whoever the body comes back as a zombie (or haunt if you kill a hammerite)

Mine arrow: Like a fire arrow but it can stick to walls and will only explode on contact, pressing a button or with a time limit.

Morphine arrow: Like a gas arrow. It has an area of effect where everybody that gets hit gets his alert level back to 0.

Ice arrow: Freezes water so you can walk on it (just like T2X) but you can also shoot at a guard to freeze him. And break him to pieces with your blackjack.

Rage arrow: Hit a target. It will attack his allies until taken down.

Rust gas arrow: Destroy anything organic nearby.

PS: This is mostly for fun. Don´t take it too seriously with "NO NOT IN MY TH4 AARGH"


These are (on my opinion) the coolest ones

ToMegaTherion
13th Jul 2009, 10:29
jtr7 arrow: causes whatever it strikes to say a line from a random unused conversation.

Hamadriyad
26th Aug 2009, 09:12
I know realism is not too important for Thief and I know we don't like time limits. But it comes to me weird when guards don't recognize mosses. And always I feel like I leave traces behind me. I don't like that. It comes to me not professional. If moss arrows have a time limit, and they disappear in a short time( but enough time) I think it would be good.

Davehall380
26th Aug 2009, 10:02
Lets try and avoid ultra-realism - ok it might affect immersion if guards ignore moss arrows but then again there are other aspects of the game that contribute to the high levels of immersion already.

As for the huge plethora of arrows, I honestly dont think that we will need them. I think TMA nailed it arrows wise, and anything else seems to unbalance the game. T2X introduced elemental transformation-thingy that seemed to turn the character into a walking gun-ship, with at least 4 arrows that I never used.

Remember that when a player faces a situation, they must methodicaly construct a plan of action, and invariably they will begin by thinking of what tools they currently hold. Give them mine arrows etc and it becomes less stealthy and more confrontational (the player WANTS to use these destructive weapons)

Secondary
26th Aug 2009, 22:44
you know, an arrow that knocks out electric lights and machines isnt really necassary, if you shoot electric lights or tesla coils in TDS with a water arrow they go out (for awhile)

Davehall380
26th Aug 2009, 23:18
We really dont need the huge amount of tools and weapons that have been discussed here in my own opinion. FM's have shown what is possible (ive lost count of how many ive seen!), but at the same time their use has often been more of a case of what CAN be done as opposed to adding to any serious gameplay enhancements.

The beauty lies in keeping ideas simple. By all means increase the effects that the limited arsenal has on the world (such as the lights and machines in TDS as mentioned in the response above), but I dont think theres much need for a huge arsenal and plethora of options. It complicates the situation for the player (what to use?), and the devs (how do I keep the level balanced and actually implement situations where they can all be used?).

Hamadriyad
28th Aug 2009, 12:24
you know, an arrow that knocks out electric lights and machines isnt really necassary, if you shoot electric lights or tesla coils in TDS with a water arrow they go out (for awhile)

Is that so? I didn't know that.

matdmcc2
28th Aug 2009, 17:38
I was just reading that thread on binding and gagging. What about an arrow that shoots like a moss ball over someone's face- similar to that spiderman thing OR shoot a rope arrow at someone's legs to hogtie 'em! Mmmhahaha. I dunno, maybe it could work?

Hamadriyad
31st Aug 2009, 08:27
I was just reading that thread on binding and gagging. What about an arrow that shoots like a moss ball over someone's face- similar to that spiderman thing OR shoot a rope arrow at someone's legs to hogtie 'em! Mmmhahaha. I dunno, maybe it could work?

In TDS, we can shoot moss arrows to faces but not legs. I guess legs could work too.

Secondary
1st Sep 2009, 01:39
i really dont think we need a host of new arrows as much as we need the ones we already ahve to be more versatile (and we do need rope arrows back, no question on that)



for instance the rope arrow might be able to create zip lines, or trip enemies, or be used to rappel

if you weren't worried about the loud noise (say, if you were on the run) maybe you could blow open a door with a fire arrow by shooting the lock

maybe you could jam a door with a moss arrow, making it overgrown and very hard to move

Hypevosa
1st Sep 2009, 03:36
I would have to say no to temporary moss arrows... in general you are crossing an area of metal or tile because you are being forced to, meaning it's the only way there, meaning it's also probably the only way back. So a temporary moss arrow would leave you stranded in some situations...

I wouldn't mind guards getting really suspicious if all the sudden they couldn't hear themselves... they should just stand around for a second and try slamming their foot against the ground, then look down and, depending on personality, react to the moss... stupid guards kinda foolin around because it's fun, edgy guards lookin around knowing that someone is around... and experienced guards just smiling and continuing on their routines, but will instead be on alert and will react more readily to sounds and sights instead of questioning themselves much.

esme
1st Sep 2009, 12:41
Wooden bashable doors could be blasted open with a fire arrow (or mines, etc.). That should remain doable. :)
you could smash open wooden doors with your short sword or blow them open with explosives, and some of the metal doors could be blown open with explosives too

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 14:51
you could smash open wooden doors with your short sword or blow them open with explosives, and some of the metal doors could be blown open with explosives too

You could smash open alot of wooden doors with hammers aswell

huzi73
27th Sep 2009, 16:04
I would have to say no to temporary moss arrows... in general you are crossing an area of metal or tile because you are being forced to, meaning it's the only way there, meaning it's also probably the only way back. So a temporary moss arrow would leave you stranded in some situations...

I wouldn't mind guards getting really suspicious if all the sudden they couldn't hear themselves... they should just stand around for a second and try slamming their foot against the ground, then look down and, depending on personality, react to the moss... stupid guards kinda foolin around because it's fun, edgy guards lookin around knowing that someone is around... and experienced guards just smiling and continuing on their routines, but will instead be on alert and will react more readily to sounds and sights instead of questioning themselves much.

THIS IS BRILLIANT! Also, why not make water arrows make surfaces slippery(for Garrett too!) Thus removing the need for oil flasks.

A water arrow to the face could annoy a guard, causing a moderate level of alertness, and while the guard is accusing Benny for taffin around, the resulting arguament could attract nearby NPC's attention, thus moving them from their posts and creating a temporary diversion.

Moss arrows could also cause guards who are passing by them for the first time to notice, pause and maybe do a slight investigation. Resulting in a change in patroll route timing and co-ordination (for purposes of sliping past a heavily patrolled checkpoint without guards noticing..)

Moss arrows fired at walls to create makeshift ladders. As well as temporarly or partially blocking light when fired at electric lights.

Moss arrows can grow if hit with water arrows, or expand/spread more rapidly if fired close enough to a water source.

Can create a temporary bridge over fast flowing waterways (instead of giving players an ice arrow)

Moss arrows Can be ignited by fire, removing the use of oil flasks, while serving the same purpose.

Moss arrows Should still muffle guards as in TDS.

Rope arrows could be Fired horizontally, for use as a trap, zipline, rappel-ing.

Fire arrows used to bash open weaker doors/locks.

Broadhead arrows that actually make noise and replace noise arrows to partially justify their existence.

Comments peeps?

Davehall380
27th Sep 2009, 16:28
THIS IS BRILLIANT! Also, why not make water arrows make surfaces slippery(for Garrett too!) Thus removing the need for oil flasks.

A water arrow to the face could annoy a guard, causing a moderate level of alertness, and while the guard is accusing Benny for taffin around, the resulting arguament could attract nearby NPC's attention, thus moving them from their posts and creating a temporary diversion.

Moss arrows could also cause guards who are passing by them for the first time to notice, pause and maybe do a slight investigation. Resulting in a change in patroll route timing and co-ordination (for purposes of sliping past a heavily patrolled checkpoint without guards noticing..)

Moss arrows fired at walls to create makeshift ladders. As well as temporarly or partially blocking light when fired at electric lights.

Moss arrows can grow if hit with water arrows, or expand/spread more rapidly if fired close enough to a water source.

Can create a temporary bridge over fast flowing waterways (instead of giving players an ice arrow)

Moss arrows Can be ignited by fire, removing the use of oil flasks, while serving the same purpose.

Moss arrows Should still muffle guards as in TDS.

Rope arrows could be Fired horizontally, for use as a trap, zipline, rappel-ing.

Fire arrows used to bash open weaker doors/locks.

Broadhead arrows that actually make noise and replace noise arrows to partially justify their existence.

Comments peeps?

I like the idea of expanding on existing weapons, adding utility through obvious interactions within the world (water would make slippery surfaces on stone for example). Obviously adding a range of new weapons complicates the balance for missions, but adding extra 'features' on the original TDP tools is a great idea. I praticulary like the idea of the horizontal rope arrow (one that im becoming more in favour of actually). Good work!

Secondary
27th Sep 2009, 22:32
well that all depends on whether the rope arrow is magical or mechanical.

id have no problem of a magical arrow trailing a rope in mid flight, but it would not work with a mechanical one.

Secondary
28th Sep 2009, 00:27
true, there would have to be an option where you could set the arrow to trail the rope rather than deploy it on contact. if that was possible there would be certain objects the rope could be tied around, fences or pillars, sewer grates, what-have-you. once the rope was tied you could shout the arrow, creating a taught line between point a (the tie-on) and point b (wherever the arrow sticks)

huzi73
29th Sep 2009, 20:42
Water shouldn't make any surface slippery that water wouldn't make slippery.



I'm still wondering how a rope arrow can be used horizontally. It doesn't trail a rope and a bow could never launch an arrow hard enough to trail a rope. And then there's the other end. And then there's making a mistake and needing to retry.

Are you just being difficult/technical? Or are you serious? ( no offense.. )


Well, one way i see it being done, is similar to what Bioshock allowed the player to do with traps(and/or the crossbow). But my apologies, i understand your arguement and i myself am clueless of how difficult this may be to pull off ingame and code into the engine.

huzi73
30th Sep 2009, 08:27
I'm being persistent in making sure people have an inkling of the trouble it takes to make their wishes come true and what it really means for the player to actually play with the same controls as before. If ever I seem difficult, I would only hope it's not because anyone is being too simplistic. Simplistic won't get it done, and too complex is crippling. We need to find the realistic middle, and remember that there's an entire game to consider, making the upgraded rope arrows less important overall. :)

Also, will this zip rope have its own keybind or replace the regular rope arrow or be an inventory item to scroll to? I simply have every reason to believe it hasn't been thought through to its conclusion, and it's mainly another thing people want for the cool factor more than anything. Once we get past the wishful-thinking and into the logistics, then the arguments can lead to a concrete possibility. It will need to be elegant, quick, and simple, with the only time spent by the player setting it up for use.

...:hmm: I get what you're saying, and to a great extent, you're right. Most people (including myself,[well, at least upto this point]) have been pushing for "horizontal" rope arrows etc. for mere coolness and cosmetiscm. Most people dont even fathom the effort and time often required to produce such insignificant cosmetic gameplay options. Let alone the merits of its implementation and its effects it may or may not have on the games actual gameplay.

huzi73
2nd Oct 2009, 09:34
if it doesn't have any impact on level design, then I won't mind.

What do you mean if it doesnt have any impact on level design? Implementing a feature without it having an impact would be pretty meaningless dont you think? Although i couldnt agree more, if it drifts from the origional gameplay, without adding depth, or improving upon it, then it should be scrapped.

esme
2nd Oct 2009, 10:25
objective : create a washing line for the widow moira

Garrett goes into the garden, shoots one end of the double roper into one post then the other end into a second, the line goes taut - objective complete

then a guard comes in sees the line and cuts it - objective needs redoing


.. silly
------

or Garrett stands on a wooden balcony and needs to cross to another so one end this balcony other end in yonder balcony and tightrope over .... alternatively use a normal rope arrow in the far balcony and take a running jump at it

.. redundant

-------

I'm coming round to the idea that using this thing would require special situations to be created in which the double ender is the only solution, maybe not such a good idea after all

Vae
2nd Oct 2009, 10:42
Maybe so, considering that you may have to alter level design in a contrived manner, which would be bad. I think it could be implemented without seeming contrived if special care was given...:hmm:...I like the idea in spirit though. I still like the idea of a swing-able rope. This would be more usable without any special contrivances.

Hypevosa
2nd Oct 2009, 12:43
unless you count needing spiderman style convenient outcropings for Garrett to shoot the rope arrow he wants to swing with into.

(I wonder who cleans up all that spider gunk... there's gotta be a ton of it O.O)

Hypevosa
3rd Oct 2009, 15:38
actually, remember how in TDP and TMA (or maybe just TMA...) you could use rope arrows on peoples' wood doors that would guard their windows (yeah, I know they have a name, I'm blanking out on what it is). I'm wondering if we'll have enough physics to where those will actually swing open, or, god forbid, break off under the weight of a taffer with 2 tons of gold on his person lol.

Secondary
4th Oct 2009, 01:41
actually, remember how in TDP and TMA (or maybe just TMA...) you could use rope arrows on peoples' wood doors that would guard their windows (yeah, I know they have a name, I'm blanking out on what it is). I'm wondering if we'll have enough physics to where those will actually swing open, or, god forbid, break off under the weight of a taffer with 2 tons of gold on his person lol.

those are shutters:D

and youve got a good point, i would like to see more trategy go into the rope arrows: youll ahve to see what can hold your weight, or maybe pull things down on purpose as a trap or a simple way to reach things.

Hypevosa
4th Oct 2009, 20:27
see, the city has always been 90% stone that I remember anyways. I don't think we quite have to worry about them going overboard with the wood like in that photo.

huzi73
5th Oct 2009, 15:17
Except this "Age", be it medieval or victorian or whatever, isnt comprised of only stone or wood, theres a healthy dose of metal provided in the event of Garrett stumbling upon vine arrows

Zahr Dalsk
5th Oct 2009, 19:32
but it would not work with a mechanical one.

Prove it.

Hypevosa
6th Oct 2009, 14:37
there are still pagans in existence, and I'm sure they could conjure up some vine arrows if they really were bothered to. Unless we're going with the inherent magical powers idea, in which case viktoria may be one of the only creatures who had such inherent magical powers...

Magic can work in many different ways. Manipulation of the magical energies inherent in the universe is one (where anyone could eventually learn to do so, or have a knack for it) vs having magical capabilities in your very essence (you either have it or you don't and yours is probably at least slightly different from others').

I don't know how magic works in the thief universe - but if magical energies are inherent in the universe, then they could be manipulated to make vine arrows by anyone (theoretically). Otherwise Viktoria's gift may be lost for good.

huzi73
8th Oct 2009, 22:30
Otherwise Viktoria's gift may be lost for good.

If this is the case, then Good Thief sales could be lost for good as well

Psychomorph
8th Oct 2009, 23:34
Knockout Arrow

A lil leather bag filled with sand at the tip of the arrow. Very bad ballistics, needs to be used at very short range only and placed at the head/neck, but you can finally knock out them from distance. Also you can pick those arrows up from the ground after use.

Fired at any part of the body just hurts, but you can make them limp if fired at the leg/knee, or decrease their accuracy with weapons (bow/sword, etc.) if fired at the arm/elbow. Of course, armour removes the effect.

Psychomorph
8th Oct 2009, 23:46
True, but the gas arrow is a one way road, you use it and it is gone and these arrows are most probably harder to get, need to be bought, while a knockout arrow can be something rather comparable to the blackjack, a custom tool that Garrett personally makes for himself (if lost) and you probably need only one to carry.

Also, best would be if this arrow had a rope on it, so if you need to knock out a guard and there's a gap between you both, you can always pull it back to you. A knockout arrow would be basically an updated version of a blackjack (no replacement of course).

theBlackman
9th Oct 2009, 00:00
:mad2:Why, Psycho, and all, do you insist on trying to make the game easier and want to introduce all these unnecessary items.

If, and that seems to be the biggie that no on wants to do, you learn to use what you have, and THINK about what you are doing, Garrett has more than enough gear to accomplish any mission without all the fancy ("Gee, I don't even need to learn to sneak, or ___________ to play this game") crap.

Instant gratification and success is NOT WHERE THIS GAME IS COMING FROM. God, if he or she exists, forbid all this dumb down the game and favor the player garbage.

If you can't take the heat, get your feeble butts out of the kitchen. Or, better yet. Give up thieving and get a day job.

Psychomorph
9th Oct 2009, 00:48
:mad2:Why, Psycho, and all, do you insist on trying to make the game easier and want to introduce all these unnecessary items.
Why are you opposed to innovation? Oh, and "innovation" in my book does not mean changing things for the worse (yeah yeah, TDS), but for the better, actually.

Also, one thing for you, for us all to think about; this is Thief 4, year 2009 (yet). There WILL be change (and blood for that matter), I just hope for the better.


Wait, a retrievable knockout arrow, not another arrow that disappears or shatters upon impact? That would mean other arrows could follow suit, if it didn't make gameplay too easy. One-way road arrows are a plus for a game like this, so arrows meant mainly for AIs aren't overused. Judicious use is a Thief strength the new game needs to return to. Also ricocheting and retrievable noisemakers or no noisemakers at all would be a plus. The ricochet was what made the noisemakers not so redundant to the broadheads and fire arrows, since the arrow could be bounced around a corner, providing even more cover and time out of view as well as the basic decoy effect, and they should be even more rare than before. Any specialty items, especially new ones, need to be rare. Any items but the basics that make attacking AIs easier need to be rare and difficult. Headshots provide the difficulty for a knockout arrow. Garrett's already overpowered anyway, as skilled players know.
You know what, I am always someone who wants things being more realistic and practical. I always try to apply real world logic to a game (instinctively, which why I like realism games and often need some tries to learn the abstract features of games) and Thief even works like this to some extent, but seeing how an arrow hits stone and disappears seems not logical to me. So yes, pick 'em up!

Also, the most effective arrows are the one that can be used only one time (crystals break) and are more expensive, so in my book the game will always stay competitive.


By the way, I read your suggestions (posts #34 (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1018443&postcount=34) & #35 (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1018514&postcount=35)) about elemental crystals being a modification to the existing broadhead arrows, I totally always wanted exactly that! I mean it is more realistic to carry a rather limited amount of arrows and modify them to your needs, instead of packing 20 broads, 10 waters, 5 gas, 4 this, 3 that, etc. Also makes game more competitive for the player and adds more flexibility.

Speaking about the knockout arrow and the rope, I think that Garrett should always have a rope and be always able to fasten it to any arrow and pull it back after use, though the rope would seriously change the ballistics and the possible range would be eventually limited, too. Also, don't think of any kind of simplified gamey mechanics when reading this suggestion, what I have in mind is to get the rope out, get the arrow out, fasten the rope on the arrow, fire and pull back and all this every single time you intend to use that feature (unless we speak about using the already adjusted arrow again), it would be a specialized feature and would give Garrett more flexibility.
The actual rope arrow would not fall under the same category though, because it requires special fastening (to hold a persons weight) and I think this time it is not enough for it to be the plain broadhead, it needs to be a special arrow with barbs.

Another thought I always thought about is, that launching a water arrow will break the crystal, but keep the actual arrow intact, why the inability to retrieve that? Though, a fire crystal detonation might very well make the arrow unusable due to the explosion, a very realistic, natural and logic way to keep up some balance toward the very effective weapons. :thumb:

Also, I always thought that using a water arrow, will extinguish the water above that guards head, but the wooden arrow part would fall on the guards head (heh heh) and make him... kinda alert (actually the crystal hitting a wall would theoretically make a suspicious noise already). Not meaning the water arrows shouldn't be effective, because they are an essential aspect of the game, but it would be really good if there was some more realism within the water arrow system, without to change the base concept.

Hypevosa
9th Oct 2009, 01:41
You know what, I am always someone who wants things being more realistic and practical. I always try to apply real world logic to a game (instinctively, which why I like realism games and often need some tries to learn the abstract features of games) and Thief even works like this to some extent, but seeing how an arrow hits stone and disappears seems not logical to me. So yes, pick 'em up!


The arrows don't disappear... they shatter. If you fired an arrow at a stone wall with only a 15 lb pull bow you have a good chance of it shattering - and Garrett's is probably far beyond that given the distance it covers (I estimate around 40 +/- 5 lbs, because it reminds me of the speed and arc of my new 40lb pull bow). Noisemaker arrows were designed with a blunted round, rubber tip so that it ricocheted, and the shaft itself seems to be made of an unusually dark wood compared to the other arrows, meaning it could be mahogany, and might be another reason the arrow doesn't shatter when directly hitting the walls.

And what do you mean realistic and practical, when you're suggesting that I can shoot an arrow with a bag of sand at the end of it, and not mortally wound or kill someone. Momentum is a deadly force, and when your bow (~35-40lb pull) shoots at around 180 -200 fps (~122 - ~136 mph). That shaft would treat your little sandbag like a stick of butter, and proceed to show the poor guard's skull/neck what for. That or the shaft would need to be built to shatter, in which case your bow would blow it to pieces on release. The only logical design would be that of an airfoil at the tip of the arrow, with air flow that caused it to spin when it shot as to counteract the lack of aerodynamics. The spinning would leave the arrow straight (your fletching would also need to change a bit), and the force being delivered over a surface would cause enough blunt force trauma to knock a man out.



Speaking about the knockout arrow and the rope, I think that Garrett should always have a rope and be always able to fasten it to any arrow and pull it back after use, though the rope would seriously change the ballistics and the possible range would be eventually limited, too. Also, don't think of any kind of simplified gamey mechanics when reading this suggestion, what I have in mind is to get the rope out, get the arrow out, fasten the rope on the arrow, fire and pull back and all this every single time you intend to use that feature (unless we speak about using the already adjusted arrow again), it would be a specialized feature and would give Garrett more flexibility.

How do you suggest we fasten a rope to said arrow? If you tie it to the arrow, the arrow will catch the rest on the bow, and you'd never get it to shoot more than 5 feet (and you'd probably break your bow). The only reason rope arrows ever worked was because of their magic rope properties. A rope arrow would need to have the rope built into the arrow's very shaft, yet it would need to exit at a point that wasn't the knock of the arrow (or else you couldn't knock the arrow).



Another thought I always thought about is, that launching a water arrow will break the crystal, but keep the actual arrow intact, why the inability to retrieve that? Though, a fire crystal detonation might very well make the arrow unusable due to the explosion, a very realistic, natural and logic way to keep up some balance toward the very effective weapons. :thumb:

Crystal hits wall - normal force of wall stops crystal, then shatters crystal, arrow shaft maintains momentum (loses some due to energy transfer to crystal), continues flying to wall and shatters on impact from the massive force imparted from the wall.

Maybe because of increased capabilities of engines we can actually see the arrows splinter and be destroyed now, instead of "disappearing". I would actually like to see an effect where if you didn't pull the bow back far enough, then arrows wouldn't actually get destroyed (unless they fell far enough from an arc to get the extra energy needed).

As an archer of many years, and someone who aced mechanical physics (electrics gave me a little trouble) there's nothing realistic or logical about your suggestions. And I don't want the air foil style arrow I suggested, because while it can't knock out 5 people at one time, it has the potential to knock out 20 or more, who I should have had to sneak up close to if I really wanted to eliminate them as problems.

Psychomorph
9th Oct 2009, 01:54
In that universe, magic and alchemy are natural and realistic, the authors created it that way, and the population of that fictional fantasy world accept that, even if they aren't comfortable with a lot of it, of course. It's a fantasy story, and either you accept that, or we have a problem--actually, a series of problems on top of problems, following "logic" to its inevitable conclusion. LGS knew what they were doing and made the right decisions. Expenditure of arrows is a good thing. It's actually a good decision to have the shafts disappear when some are misused and others are used correctly. It's efficient and it doesn't detract from the game itself. Using up supplies and purchasing more, when not finding them during exploration, is classic gameplay and not a bad thing. Forcing the player to really decide whether to use gear or not per scenario is a major positive, and Garrett should always have vulnerability. "Natural" for Thief is not the same as for us in real life. Real life is a hindrance in fantasy, and should only be used to ground the audience, and every request for less fantasy is not the authors' fault.
Of course, the realism I refer to is realism that applies within the games universe. It is ok to let things disappear by magic, because thats a reason no matter how unreal it is, in the world of Thief it is real.
There is no reason for a simple object to just disappear without a reason, unless the developer decided so (because of technical problems/limitation), in case of reusable arrows I see not a single reason not to go for it... only because the original from the late 90's didn't feature that?

There would still be limitation and reasons to not pick it up again, for example if it breaks on impact or is sticking out of a dead body (Garrett doesn't want blood on his clothes), or no time.

theBlackman
9th Oct 2009, 08:13
And what, in your opinion, is wrong with THIEF as it is? It's a game. Realism is not a needed factor, and "innovation" does not mean changing the entire concept of something. Innovation is presumeably an enhancement.

Fancy gear to "spice" up the game is, in this instance, a frill that may attract other players who have never had the experience of learning to be self motivated confined to the necessity of learning how it works.

All the "extra" innovations I have read in most of the threads are making the game into the standard, everyday, ho hum, crap that most games are.

Change is not bad or good if properly directed and focused on the underlying structure of the original games. But fancy graphics and effects soley because it can now be done is "gilding the lily". The game needs no extra gear, no extra fancy mobility, or view for the hero. New storyline, new puzzles, new protagonists, perhaps. But Garrett is not, and should not be a "superhero" with a Batman utility belt.

The entire attraction of the original games, and the FMs that resulted and continue to appear, is that the player has to LEARN to survive within the limits of the equipment, and the skill that the individual player acquires.

The only reward is the satisfaction of learning how to walk silently, take advantage of the shadows and the proper use of the equipment.

It's not a BEAT THE GAME game. It is a BEAT YOURSELF game. Like Pool (table billiards), golf or bowling, you are never beaten by your opponent. In all these games and in THIEF, you defeat yourself. You either learn to develop the skills with what you are limited to use, or YOU FAIL.

The only "improvement" or "innovation" the game needs is good plotting, good maps, worthwhile opponents and the need to think your way through, or out of difficulty. Not more fancy graphics, equipment that equates to the BFG or makes you invisible or invincable.

Those games already exist. And they are not THIEF, nor are they a passable substitute for the original. TDS is the perfect example of how to screw up a perfectly good concept and reduce it to a "Are you out of your mind" laughable game.

TDS is not a "bad" game. One thing it is not, is THIEF.

Namdrol
9th Oct 2009, 09:25
It's not a BEAT THE GAME game. It is a BEAT YOURSELF game. Like Pool (table billiards), golf or bowling, you are never beaten by your opponent. In all these games and in THIEF, you defeat yourself. You either learn to develop the skills with what you are limited to use, or YOU FAIL.


:cool::cool::cool:
:thumb::thumb:

Hecateus
10th Oct 2009, 15:56
I am thinking atm, that only Crystal/magic arrows should have a 'trail', and have related stealth consequences.

Vae
10th Oct 2009, 23:37
Agreed. Arrow trails just made THIEF look "kiddie" and cartoon-like...:mad:

theBlackman
11th Oct 2009, 00:10
Face it. All this call for "trails" is just a plea to dumb the game down so nobody actually needs to learn the limits of the bow.

In the OM's in Blackmail, you can shoot the guards in front of Truart's mansion from the gates, or the top of the towers. No trails. Just knowing the limits of the bow, how to aim it and how long to hold the "draw".

Trails are for those wimps who can't see where thier shots are going, and are too lazy to learn how the bow functions.

That's what the "training" mission was for in TDP. A similar one should be in all the missions and definitely NOT the "Follow the yellow brick road", that was used in TDS.

Vae
11th Oct 2009, 00:26
Yes, the bowing in T1/T2 was perfect...no need to change it whatsoever. I can't believe some would want to take away the learning and sense of accomplishment, which is so satisfying.

theBlackman
11th Oct 2009, 03:02
Just to stir the pot. In TMA you need to hit a button on an elevator to make it function. In TDP you can (although it's not necessary) shoot across a canal to lower a draw bridge by hitting the control button.

In a number of the FMs, you need to hit even smaller targets to open gates, or to turn off a light by hitting the light switch.

All of this can be done and is done by the player who learns to use the bow properly. No trails, no fancy assistance other than the autozoom of the bowsight and the judgement of the player.

If the player actually "plays" the game and explores the limits of the equipment, he/she can accomplish seemingly impossible tasks. You can bounce a gas arrow off a wall at exactly the right angle to take out a handful of guards. You can put a rope arrow through a slot so narrow that you can barely see through it and hit the only piece of wood that will hold it so you can climb to an area.

There is no need for all these "enhancements" or "innovations". The NEED is for the player to PRACTICE, learn his or her limits and the limits of the equipment. To make the game easier and less of a challenge would be a travesty. Thief is unique in that the rewards come from your personal discipline and efforts. Not because you got the "cloak of invisiblity" or other such by doing in Goliath, and finding the shield of invincibility.

Psychomorph
11th Oct 2009, 04:04
As an archer of many years, and someone who aced mechanical physics (electrics gave me a little trouble) there's nothing realistic or logical about your suggestions.
There isn't? As an "archer of many years" you most probably shot arrows straight on target, with all the safety measures by the book. Tried shooting an arrow near parallel to a stone wall, observing it ricocheting gently and falling on grass-ground? I'd feel not very smart as a thief, who buys his stuff, keeping this (possibly) intact arrow just there, when passing the spot (let's say coincidentally, right after the shot). There are so many more possibilities for an arrow to stay intact (water, sand, etc), not picking it up (if chance) isn't smart.

Nay saying is easier than giving it few more thoughts, I guess.


And what do you mean realistic and practical, when you're suggesting that I can shoot an arrow with a bag of sand at the end of it, and not mortally wound or kill someone. Momentum is a deadly force, and when your bow (~35-40lb pull) shoots at around 180 -200 fps (~122 - ~136 mph). That shaft would treat your little sandbag like a stick of butter, and proceed to show the poor guard's skull/neck what for. That or the shaft would need to be built to shatter, in which case your bow would blow it to pieces on release.
What if the arrow is shorter than the normal ones, not possible to be fired at max strength? What if the shaft is made of very light material, so that the "sandbag" is the heavier part? What if the shaft has a sort of a dish design at the tip (and sandbag at it), so the energy is spread over the "dish" disallowing the tip to pierce the bag, so that the bag is soft and solid (dosn't need to be sand, can be something softer)?

There are so many concepts that can actually make it work. Of course, as a developer you'd need to get some information and if the idea is absurd by all means, than drop it, but if it is doable to at least an extent, than you could go for it (you just said it yourself, things do not need to be 100% realistic).


How do you suggest we fasten a rope to said arrow? If you tie it to the arrow, the arrow will catch the rest on the bow, and you'd never get it to shoot more than 5 feet (and you'd probably break your bow). The only reason rope arrows ever worked was because of their magic rope properties. A rope arrow would need to have the rope built into the arrow's very shaft, yet it would need to exit at a point that wasn't the knock of the arrow (or else you couldn't knock the arrow).
If speaking about a thick, solid rope, there are ways to fasten it, don't just tie it to the shaft, but lay the ending parallel to the shaft and tie it with a very thin rope, rotate this part to the outside when pulling the bow and it wont collide with the bow when fired. Also you can maybe tie it right behind the blade (probably alters the arrow behaviour to much then). I'm not saying this is how it needs to be done, just wanted to give ideas (once again) how things can potentially be handled.

However, I guess I need to clarify my original thought, because I had an extra thin and rather short multi purpose rope in mind. This rope would be easy and fast to use, because it would be carried in a little bag at the belt (rope attached to the belt, too). It could have a sort of a quick mounting clip, so that it could be fastened to any arrow (or most). The limited length would limit it to close range use only (and allow very fast retraction, even on the run), so if the arrow is fired at full strength, it will be limited to the range the rope gives.

Purpose:
Imagine there is a metal(thin!) or wooden box on a balcony few feet away and you got a tip there is some key. You can't get to it physically, but you can fire an arrow (with the multi purpose rope attached), if lucky it pierces the material as desired and you can just pull the box to you and get the key. There can be countless interesting situations around this concept.

Also imagine you shoot a rope arrow and climb up to the arrow, if there's a way, attach the multi purpose rope (lets call it MPR) to the spot and remove the rope arrow to shoot it to another spot and eventually swing yourself after removing the MPR. So many awesome possibilities to be a "Ninja Thief".

theBlackman
11th Oct 2009, 05:16
As usual you, Psycho, are missing the main point. Everything you are suggesting is totally unnecessary.

It seems you can't play a game without all the help possible to take the burden of learning how to live within the pervue of the given parameters off your shoulders and thereby relieve you of the need to learn HOW to play it and survive.

The game has no more need, or use, for the "innovations" you suggest than a chicken has for an udder.

A game with all the crap you seem to need might possibly be amusing, entertaining, or even playable. But it would not be THIEF.

It would be another weak attempt to introduce stealth, and "I don't need to think" play to a pale imitation of the real game(s) as provided in TDP, TMA, GOLD and the hundreds, yes hundreds, of FMs that do hold to the feeling, concept and playability of THIEF.

theBlackman
11th Oct 2009, 07:39
Now, now Gandalf. You expect too much when you ask that the FPS mob actually learn to play a game where you don't kill everything that moves, or can't have or find the BFG to make it simple for them to play. Or, God forbid, need to actually THINK ABOUT YOUR ACTIONS.

Vae
11th Oct 2009, 08:25
Yeah...it's a different mentality...those hobbits.

Having to think about your actions instead of just reacting all the time is a brilliant distinction of THIEF. This way of thinking, as a vulnerable man on the edge, combined with being leveraged into utilizing your creative intelligence in order to further yourself, acts as glue, to give that rich, deep experience.

It's sad that so many hobbits do not realize how essential this is in order for THIEF to remain THIEF.

Psychomorph
12th Oct 2009, 11:01
Mud Arrow

The mud arrow would be somewhat similar to the water arrow, you can extinguish fire, but unlike the crystal clear water the mud can dazzle security eyes and also dim electric lights (dim, because the light might still get through and if the lamp is large, the mud wont cover the whole of it). Dimming the lights can turn a situation more to your advantage, as the dimming creates more shadows in a place.

A byproduct of the mud characteristics is, that it's slippery, running people can slip on it (drunk ones can slip when walking), though it is not as effective as oil.

As to how create these arrows, maybe you have sort of a potion, you spill it over the normal water arrow and the liquid poisons the clear water into ugly mud, the crystal turns dark brown (similar to how you can convert the water arrow into holy water arrow via the hammerite holy water potion). The actual holy water potion can turn (cleanse) the mud back into nomal water.
So, to use the mud arrow you need to get a water arrow ready, turn it into mud and fire, one by one. A single mud potion bottle would give you like eight times turning water arrows into mud.



Everything you are suggesting is totally unnecessary.
As were the slow fall potion, the silent walk potion, etc.

See, I agree with you there, the less tools, the better. I wouldn't even mind if they scrap the whole elemental arrows, moss, noise maker stuff (rope arrow must stay though), I know of their tactical value, but I kept their use to an inevitable minimum. For me some tools (even if the most original ones) are not what Thief stands for, they are just a byproduct. The feet and the mind are my most favourite tools.

Hypevosa
12th Oct 2009, 20:59
As were the slow fall potion, the silent walk potion

I don't remember there being a "silent walk" potion...

Hey, don't dis the slowfall potion. I actually found a good few scenarios where it served purpose playing TMA. It's meant to be a shortcut maker or an aid in flight from enemy characters, and it serves those purposes very well.

Actually thinking about a new use for them, maybe if you drank one under water it would cause you to shoot up to the surface. So let's say you're at the bottom of an underwater cave system you started swimming through, and you realize you're out of breath potions and soon to be out of breath. You swim forward to a curve and see that upwards is the surface, but you wouldn't get there in time. You drink the slowfall potion and swim up, getting you to the surface very quickly, saving your hide. Maybe you could even use the combination to get a good jump out of the water if you needed to get to a high mantle edge or something like that from the water's edge.

I much prefer modifying/adding to current tools than making new ones. (one of the things I did love in TDS was the choking moss arrow - a good bit of comedy and a little bit of strategy at the same time... I would have liked to see guards try to heimlich each other to end the effect sooner though)

As an added thing, I played the dark mod yesterday, and if you used a water arrow you could actually see the broken shaft under where you shot, same if you shot a broadhead at a hard object - it was awesome :D

I've also shot at a target my whole life, and that hasn't meant I've always hit said target. I actually have shot and missed so bad I hit a giant stone by a target, and needless to say my arrow was entirely destroyed (and it was a metal one as well). Given, my arrow was probably shot a little faster than garrett's because I believe my bow was at higher poundage, but his arrows are made of wood, and I doubt they'd sustain that punishment.

Exit
31st Oct 2009, 18:08
I think rope arrow should be useful... (Like in T2) It could hit only wood and land a rope from it's bottom...

P.S. sorry for my english... :)

Vae
1st Nov 2009, 01:31
:cool::thumb:

P.S. EXIT, you don't need to keep saying "sorry for my english"...it's actually pretty good...:)

Psychomorph
6th Jan 2010, 08:10
We already had suggestions to use broadhead arrows in order to turn them into elemental arrows, I want to expand on that, because I think it is the best way to go.

You have only broadhead arrows. Elemental crystals are just the crystals that you carry in a pocket/bag. You have two ways to make use of the crystals, appropriate to the situation; you can either just grab the crystal and throw it by hand, or you get the bow and arrow ready and stick the crystal on the arrowhead, because I find it absurd to use an arrow to take out a fire, standing right next to it suggests to just grab the water crystal and throw it by hand. Using a bow/arrow, the crystal breaks on impact unleashing it's power (water, fire, moss, gas, etc), BUT the actual arrow still behaves like an arrow, so it sticks in the wall, eventually the shaft shutters, or it remains intact, either way you can remove both to remove evidence sort of (an intact arrow will be then added back to your inventory, a fire crystal explosion will usually destroy the arrow completely).

That means before you can launch an elemental arrow, you have to modify the broadhead arrow, each time. That also means launching an elemental arrow at a person has the same lethality as a normal broadhead arrow.

Nate
6th Jan 2010, 12:26
Sure, I like your idea Psychomorph....but it DOES mean a lot of time/$ for the devs to implement = I doubt it will happen.

That said, the idea of being able to throw crystals at short range stuff, and use up broadhead arrows to shoot crystals even further = is a great idea!

Yaphy
8th Jan 2010, 15:21
The mud arrow idea is quite good. Though I dont find it really necessary. I think the devs can increase the use of moss arrow. If you shoot it on electric lamps they could grow over it and dim or cover parts of the light. This idea also makes for creepy shadows on the surrounding walls and makes a way to have more elextric light and something to counter it with.

Hypevosa
8th Jan 2010, 15:42
The mud arrow idea is quite good. Though I dont find it really necessary. I think the devs can increase the use of moss arrow. If you shoot it on electric lamps they could grow over it and dim or cover parts of the light. This idea also makes for creepy shadows on the surrounding walls and makes a way to have more elextric light and something to counter it with.

I think this is a great idea - it doesn't eliminate the threat of electric lights but lessens it, and it uses a tool already in our repertoire.

That and I'd actually use moss arrows (since I use them so rarely now, I usually find another way around if I see lots of metal, or just sneak).

Platinumoxicity
8th Jan 2010, 15:51
I think this is a great idea - it doesn't eliminate the threat of electric lights but lessens it, and it uses a tool already in our repertoire.

That and I'd actually use moss arrows (since I use them so rarely now, I usually find another way around if I see lots of metal, or just sneak).

Aren't electric lights supposed to be an unavoidable challenge, that you can't simply shut off using your tools, much like the armored guards? And that you need to use clever tactics in those situations? Although it could work if the mud slowly dried up and cracked off the lamp after a while, so that it wouldn't simply be a "water arrow for the electric lamps" ;)

Oh, and how do you "sneak" on metal grating? IIRC no matter how slow you move it makes a lot of noise. :scratch:

Psychomorph
8th Jan 2010, 16:56
The mud arrow idea is quite good. Though I dont find it really necessary. I think the devs can increase the use of moss arrow. If you shoot it on electric lamps they could grow over it and dim or cover parts of the light. This idea also makes for creepy shadows on the surrounding walls and makes a way to have more elextric light and something to counter it with.
:thumb: :thumb: I imagine that to look pretty darn impressive, considering the possiblities of next-gen engines. Just imagine it grows and the room slowly turns darker, while the leafsies and rootsies drop their threatening shadow on walls like giant snakes.

Sorta like this:
http://www.pointclickhome.com/files/web/u29/Gallery91ForestiChandelier.jpg

Yaphy
9th Jan 2010, 10:01
yes exactly! In your picture there is lots of shadows around the walls but the leafs, moss, and roots doesnt cover all of the light. I think this is a good idea that also gives the moss arrow more possibilities. With this idea the moss arrow is more useful. I dont know about you but I always have a big amount of moss arrows that I dont even use.

They are good at pressing buttons at range
They cover noicy floors
They can choke enemies in T3. (Do we want this?)
And now they should have the possibility to cover some electric light.

Its an all-round tool that makes sneaking and hiding easier for those who are inventive.

Platinumoxicity
9th Jan 2010, 10:29
I'm following you around Yaphy. ;)

I want the moss that has the ability to cover parts of electric light, to slowly dry out and fall off the light so that the player should ration the moss arrows for important situations and not just shoot them at all electric lights that he finds.

Also, the "moss-arrow-choking-cheap-knockoff-flashbang-substitute" -feature should be removed. Also the way the moss made loud noise upon deployment in TDS. From gameplay perspective it made no sense at all. The purpose of the moss arrow: When there are enemies closely around and you need to travel via loud surfaces in order to pass, the only option is to use a moss arrow to dampend the sound of the floor. Only in TDS the entire system was destroyed because the moss arrow made such loud noise that you could never use it for situations it was really meant for! In addition, they made creeping and crouching completely silent so that you never had to use moss arrows again.

Hypevosa
9th Jan 2010, 19:37
Why not just have anyone traipsing around who sees moss covering the light come over and scrape it off? They'd be a little weird-ed out since there sure as hell wasn't moss there before, and the light is rather creepy. It's magic moss, I see no reason for it to not stay attached, and it wouldn't do harm to keep it attached if there was no one to hide from. It would just give the player that extra comfort while moving through that zone, even if it could be seen as a waste of a moss arrow.

As for the moss arrow choking people, I thought it was nice comical relief, and gave another use for the arrow. If you want it to not be overpowering as it was, make it so that enemies will Heimlich each other out of it, or that they can Heimlich themselves, just at a slower rate. They should also be very alert afterwords, and should only be susceptible to KO for a few seconds afterwords and only if they don't see you coming.

Yaphy
9th Jan 2010, 20:25
Just throw out some ideas.
What if you could trap the guards, arm or a leg for a couple of seconds when you shoot moss arrow at them. If you hit the head->the waist an arm might get stuck in the moss and the guard can't draw his weapon before he breaks loose after about 3 or 4 seconds. He still might run after you. If you hit the hips->the feets his leg might get trapped and he will run slower and he will limp until the moss ripps.
The moss on electric light could catch on fire after quite some time and burn up due to the very hot glass and metal surounding the light bulb.
The moss arrow could be slightly more rare to make up for the increased ways of use.

Oon Kuka Oon
9th Jan 2010, 21:56
In Finland we say "vierivä kivi ei sammaloidu". It is: "rolling stone doesn't get moss". I think it is same with guards, moss can't grab them if they're running.

Platinumoxicity
9th Jan 2010, 23:45
In Finland we say "vierivä kivi ei sammaloidu". It is: "rolling stone doesn't get moss". I think it is same with guards, moss can't grab them if they're running.

"Kyllä." -Yep.

Yaphy
10th Jan 2010, 19:36
In Finland we say "vierivä kivi ei sammaloidu". It is: "rolling stone doesn't get moss". I think it is same with guards, moss can't grab them if they're running.

But the mythbusters proved that myth wrong. It's Busted!

Platinumoxicity
19th Jan 2010, 17:03
I think this idea has already come up but would it be cool/useless to be able to mix 2 different elemental crystals to form an all new hybrid element to an arrow?

The laws of physics in the Thief universe start to make sense actually. I can see that:
Water on the earth gives life
Water in the air makes clouds
Fire in the earth makes volcanoes
And fire in the air.... is BAD. Very bad. :D

Made this mixing chart:
http://filesmelt.com/dl/elementhybrid.PNG


When you mix water and earth crystals you get growth crystal which you can change into a slowfall arrow. Shoot it on the ground and it grows a thick tuft of moss and ferns and stuff, that you can carefully jump onto from higher distances and you won't get hurt at all.

Mixing a water crystal with an air crystal gets you a cloud crystal that turns into a mist arrow, sort of like a smoke grenade that you can use to create smoke cover to hide in/behind. The mist doesn't dissolve(or at least not too quickly) so that you can create permanent cover in large areas.

Mixing an earth crystal with a fire crystal gets you a lava crystal which you can turn into a napalm arrow. When shot anywhere, it throws out a large quantity of burning, sticky substance that creates a firestorm to that place for enough time to allow you to escape. You can use it to block enemy pursuit, or set them on fire so that they run around setting everyone else they touch on fire too.

Mixing a fire crystal with an air crystal makes a comet crystal that you can turn into a powerful warhead, the sunburst arrow. Upon impact the arrow disintegrates everything in it's vicinity, deafens anyone right outside the danger zone and temporarily blinds anyone that looks at the detonation. For those zombie-slayers, this is the ultimate "weapon of mass-*splat* "

Mixing opposite elements like water to fire or air to moss doesn't work, because they would simply cancel eachother out.

The player must always think ahead if he wants to waste 2 crystals to create 1 arrow, and the more expensive crystals, the more loss if the arrow proves worthless for the situation. I know, weapons like smoke grenades and tactical nukes and napalm aren't exactly "thiefy" but they're for the lulz for those who like to goof around with the AI or go zombie-hunting. :D

Oon Kuka Oon
19th Jan 2010, 17:14
So how would you implement that in game? What keys we'll use to do that? What key chooses the new arrows?
And would we really need them?

Platinumoxicity
19th Jan 2010, 17:19
No we wouldn't need them. They're completely useless. Except maybe the slowfall arrow. But games nowadays don't have enough useless features, like rooms that are only there for realism, like toilets and bedrooms.

esme
19th Jan 2010, 17:34
given that I've never managed to shoot myself, how would a slowfall arrow work ?

Hypevosa
19th Jan 2010, 17:57
I remember finding the toilets in the Hammer cathedral mission of TDS and saying "WOW a game that recognizes that people need to go to the john every now and again, AMAZING."

Oon Kuka Oon
19th Jan 2010, 18:19
I think there were toilets, kitchens, and bedrooms in TDP and TMA.
Edit: And bathrooms.
Edit: And torture chambers.

Hypevosa
19th Jan 2010, 18:56
there were, it just surprised me in TDS to see the string of multiple lou's all in a row, but it made perfect sense.

Yaphy
19th Jan 2010, 19:58
I think this idea has already come up but would it be cool/useless to be able to mix 2 different elemental crystals to form an all new hybrid element to an arrow?

The laws of physics in the Thief universe start to make sense actually. I can see that:
Water on the earth gives life
Water in the air makes clouds
Fire in the earth makes volcanoes
And fire in the air.... is BAD. Very bad. :D

Made this mixing chart:
http://filesmelt.com/dl/elementhybrid.PNG


When you mix water and earth crystals you get growth crystal which you can change into a slowfall arrow. Shoot it on the ground and it grows a thick tuft of moss and ferns and stuff, that you can carefully jump onto from higher distances and you won't get hurt at all.

Mixing a water crystal with an air crystal gets you a cloud crystal that turns into a mist arrow, sort of like a smoke grenade that you can use to create smoke cover to hide in/behind. The mist doesn't dissolve(or at least not too quickly) so that you can create permanent cover in large areas.

Mixing an earth crystal with a fire crystal gets you a lava crystal which you can turn into a napalm arrow. When shot anywhere, it throws out a large quantity of burning, sticky substance that creates a firestorm to that place for enough time to allow you to escape. You can use it to block enemy pursuit, or set them on fire so that they run around setting everyone else they touch on fire too.

Mixing a fire crystal with an air crystal makes a comet crystal that you can turn into a powerful warhead, the sunburst arrow. Upon impact the arrow disintegrates everything in it's vicinity, deafens anyone right outside the danger zone and temporarily blinds anyone that looks at the detonation. For those zombie-slayers, this is the ultimate "weapon of mass-*splat* "

Mixing opposite elements like water to fire or air to moss doesn't work, because they would simply cancel eachother out.

The player must always think ahead if he wants to waste 2 crystals to create 1 arrow, and the more expensive crystals, the more loss if the arrow proves worthless for the situation. I know, weapons like smoke grenades and tactical nukes and napalm aren't exactly "thiefy" but they're for the lulz for those who like to goof around with the AI or go zombie-hunting. :D

Oh no! Please don't do this. I actually think its a really bad idea. I dont want to mix arrows into super-arrows. The only thing that I found intresting was the idea about safe landing on water+moss. TDS made the moss grow if you shot water on it. It can be inproved with this idea giving the water+moss combination more effect then just a larger pile of moss. It can reduce the fall-damage with, say 50%?
I hope you were joking with those other ideas.

Platinumoxicity
19th Jan 2010, 20:33
I know, weapons like smoke grenades and tactical nukes and napalm aren't exactly "thiefy" but they're for the lulz for those who like to goof around with the AI or go zombie-hunting. :D

I know they're not a good idea and there shouldn't be any effective weapons in Thief. The player should always be challenged one way or another. The ice arrows in T2X were overpowered and it meant that you never had to worry about running out of special weapons when fighting for example undead.

When you're facing a horde of zombies you have 2 choices. Either waste all your special equipment killing them all or evade them. ;)

Loup
19th Jan 2010, 22:13
And how is Garrett supposed to combine the crystals? By banging them together? ohh no, do you realise what this would result in? A special crystal combinator menu which you bring up with "c"

Builder forbid!

Psychomorph
10th Feb 2010, 15:22
Original Fire Arrow concept in the E3 trailer. Observe 0:40:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGRVuWpZ9lE&feature=related

Man, why didn't they just stick to it, you had smoke trails, even some sort of a heat distortion (anyone has a HD version of this trailer?). The arrow doesn't glow, only when launched. Excellent.

I see that LGS had fantastic ideas, but due to whatever reasons (technical perhaps) they had to dumb down things. Isn't that ironic?

windwalker
10th Feb 2010, 15:32
Hey I have never seen these before! Just look at the water effects, they are amazing!

Hypevosa
26th May 2010, 03:17
thanks for posting that.

I originally was toying with the idea of something you doused the arrow with to quell it's explosive nature. But I wanted to streamline it so it was more player friendly, as opposed to having to cycle through an item menu and select something, use it, then use the fire arrow. It's a little better than toggling too, because it's still a more on the fly thing, allowing for more fluid play than searching for the right button to press or the right inventory slot. If that makes sense.

Vae
26th May 2010, 09:47
Sounds pretty good...:)

I like the idea of how two different velocities would affect the effect of the fire arrow.

To expand, I would propose that both the fire and water elemental crystals be treated this way. Because the elemental arrows are magical in nature, different velocities could release a greater or lesser magical "burst" upon impact, yielding a range of effects.

For example, with three levels of effect:

Fire Arrow:
Level 1: 1/2 pull = a quiet, dim, small, soft burst of flame. Useful for quietly igniting torches, gas lamps, candles, powder kegs (with a fuse), and other highly flammable substances. Minimal or no damage to undead or other creatures. Will not normally alert those nearby.
Level 2: 3/4 pull = a moderately loud and bright, medium sized, burst of fire. Useful on flammable objects that require more energy to ignite (fireplaces, wood, tapestries, etc.). Also somewhat useful for slaying the undead and other creatures (half damage). Will normally alert those nearby.
Level 3: Full pull = a loud, bright, large, roaring burst of fire. Useful for slaying the undead and other creatures (full damage). The concussive force could be used to move objects and also to gain entry to certain sealed portals and containers. Not useful for igniting anything other than explosives, as the explosion snuffs out the burning flames. Will normally alert those near and far.

Water Arrow:
Level 1: 1/2 pull = a very quiet, small, soft burst of water. Useful for quietly extinguishing torches, gas lamps, and candles. Minimal damage to fire elementals and undead (with holy water). Not useful for extinguishing fireplaces or larger fires. This near silent technique will not normally alert those nearby from the sight and sound of the arrow itself.
Level 2: 3/4 pull = a fairly quiet, medium sized, burst of water. Useful for extinguishing fireplaces and other medium sized fires (e.g. on wood, tapestries, etc.) and cleaning up blood. Can be used for extinguishing torches and other small fires, although in doing so, it is slightly more detectable than using the 1/2 pull. Also somewhat useful for slaying fire elementals (half damage) and the undead (half damage with holy water). Not useful for extinguishing large fires (such as those filling a doorway). Unlikely to alert those nearby from the sight and sound of the arrow itself.
Level 3: Full pull = a large, slightly loud, shimmering, burst of water. Useful for slaying fire elementals (full damage) and the undead (full damage with holy water). Also useful for extinguishing large fires (like one filling a doorway, perhaps so that you could gain entry), expanding moss patches, and cleaning up large areas of blood. Not useful for silently snuffing out small fires, as this will normally alert those nearby.

Platinumoxicity
26th May 2010, 09:49
Why would frobbing something need an animation anyway?

Use a holy water flask when water arrow is not selected -> Throw flask.
Use a holy water flask when water arrow is selected -> Holy water arrows.
Use a holy water fountain whether water arrow is selected or not -> Switch to holy water arrows.


Water Arrow:
Level 1: <1/2 pull = a very quiet, small, soft burst of water. Useful for quietly extinguishing torches, gas lamps, candles, and cleaning up blood. Minimal damage to fire elementals and undead (with holy water). Not useful for extinguishing fireplaces or larger fires. This near silent technique will not normally alert those nearby from the sight and sound of the arrow itself.


There's just one problem... Water arrows are meant for putting water onto something in long distances. If I want simply to put out a flame in the other end of a hallway, I need to use full pull with the bowstring. Having so little power that the arrow flies only a 5m distance kinda defeats the original purpose of having water arrows at all, when I need to walk right next to a flame to put it out even with an arrow.

Vae
26th May 2010, 10:12
Actually, the way I intended it was that level 2 was the typical water arrow effect. With 3/4 pulls you can hit just about anything at medium range. Level 1 is for short range stealth shots when you're up close to enemy A.I. in cramped quarters, so as to be extra stealthy with only partial burst energy. With Level 3 full pull long range shots, you'd be so far away it wouldn't matter if they became alerted, unless of course it does matter because of objective, difficulty, or self-imposed preference...but then you won't have it so easy, and will have to think more about how you utilize your arrows...which is a good thing...:)

Keep in mind this is just the initial expanded idea based upon what Hype suggested...:thumb:...please feel free to add your own thoughts and adjustments to the concept.

Also keep in mind that if the devs incorporate this feature into THIEF 4, they could adjust the way partial pulls behave.

Tryst
26th May 2010, 12:29
Prozac arrow. Shoot this at a guard and if he sees you, he just doesn't care.
Portal arrow. Spawns a cake at the target location. :whistle:

OK seriously.

I think the water arrows should be able to knock out electric lights as well. Maybe with some consequences to make it less desireable to do it. If you take out a light, it may short out back to somewhere else and destroy circuits required to open certain doors or activate certain things required in the mission. This could be overcome by repairs but adds more content to the mission because you have to find the parts and then repair the circuit.

It may even cause death to someone standing close to the circuits, disaster if the mission does not allow you to harm anyone.

In addition, I think there should be some defence against those woodsie faerie lights, give us something to knock those out as well. A Web Arrow maybe that deploys a fine web that doesn't allow the light through and pins the faerie to a tree or something.

Platinumoxicity
26th May 2010, 13:11
I think the water arrows should be able to knock out electric lights as well. Maybe with some consequences to make it less desireable to do it. If you take out a light, it may short out back to somewhere else and destroy circuits required to open certain doors or activate certain things required in the mission. This could be overcome by repairs but adds more content to the mission because you have to find the parts and then repair the circuit.


The electric lights are there specifically for the reason that they can't be turned off with water arrows. You need to find a swich. Varied gameplay you know. ;)

Tryst
26th May 2010, 17:15
The electric lights are there specifically for the reason that they can't be turned off with water arrows. You need to find a swich. Varied gameplay you know. ;)
That's why I brought up the consequences. You can use water arrows and chance what happens of find a switch for less chance of it doing something nasty.

Guards always moan about the torches going out but none of them have the wits to try to re-light them. That could also lead to some consequences, a guard tries to re-light the torch and finds it's wet which, in turn, leads to him alerting other guards that a taffer is around.

Hypevosa
27th May 2010, 01:03
Maybe having the electric light start to flicker when exposed to the water.

I'd like to see the moss arrows be useful for those instead though, or maybe vine arrows, where they create a grassy film that covers most of the light, maybe leaving little streaks and dots from the chaotic and imperfect covering of the surface.

Either way, a lessening of their effect, but not complete removal.

Fatherwoodsie
28th May 2010, 05:08
as far as fire arrows go, there should be a sound of a striking match, every time, as if he has to light and ignite whatever is in the packet-bulb. its painful to think of garret walking around with fire in his back knap-sack all the time. instead of just pulling out an already flaming arrow, im not saying garrett should stand there and pull out a book of matches and start striking but at LEAST add the sound of striking a match please. cant be too hard, just a simple sound file

Vae
28th May 2010, 05:21
Why would Garrett need to light a magical fire crystal?

Namdrol
28th May 2010, 07:42
I really don't think it's a flaming arrow.
It's an elemental arrow, the essence of fire contained within a crystal.
Most likely borrowing from the AD&D concept of pocket planes.

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2010, 08:03
I really don't think it's a flaming arrow.
It's an elemental arrow, the essence of fire contained within a crystal.
Most likely borrowing from the AD&D concept of pocket planes.

True. The laws of physics in the Thief universe are very different from the real world. The trinity of the states of matter expands to fire too.

Water can be solid (ice or water crystal) liquid (water) or vaporous (steam)
Earth can be solid (soil/moss or earth crystal) liquid (mud) and vaporous (mold spores t.ex)
Fire can be solid (black body heat / elemental / fire crystal) liquid (lava) or vaporous (fire)
Air can be solid (elemental / air crystal) liquid (pressurized, breath potion) or vaporous (air, gas)

The crystals are simply crystalline solid, condensed and compressed forms of the elements, that break their crystalline structure when force is applied and return to their most sustainable forms, releasing the condensed energy.

Vae
28th May 2010, 12:00
The trinity of the states of matter expands to fire too.

No. There are four states of non-magical matter...solid, liquid, gas, and plasma (superheated ionized gas). For example, lightning and star fire are plasma.



Water can be solid (ice or water crystal) liquid (water) or vaporous (steam)
Earth can be solid (soil/moss or earth crystal) liquid (mud) and vaporous (mold sporest.ex)
Fire can be solid (black body heat / elemental / fire crystal) liquid (lava) or vaporous (fire)
Air can be solid (elemental / air crystal) liquid (pressurized, breath potion) or vaporous (air, gas)

The crystals are simply crystalline solid, condensed and compressed forms of the elements, that break their crystalline structure when force is applied and return to their most sustainable forms, releasing the condensed energy.

This is incorrect.

Here, and in the THIEF Universe, the four non-magical states of matter are determined solely by variations in temperature.

The elemental crystals are a manifestation of crystallized magical elemental energy, not bound by the thermodynamic property that governs physical state changes. The proof of this can be seen by the keen observer. Notice how the water crystal is unaffected by the state of the surrounding water in the same time and space, whether it be liquid, ice, or steam...the crystal remains unchanged. If it were non-magical water, it would have no choice but to obey the rules of thermodynamics and become liquid, ice, or steam. This means that there are two different kinds of water, one that corresponds to the laws of thermodynamics, and one that doesn't. Water that is able transcend these rules can only be explained by the law of magical energy, which is a real and constant force in the THIEF Universe.

The elemental planes of existence elusively intersect with the material plane and express crystalline matrices of magical elemental energy in the form of crystals. This energy is activated by disrupting the matrix and releasing the stored magical elemental energy within.

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2010, 13:13
True. The laws of physics in the Thief universe are very different from the real world. The trinity of the states of matter expands to fire too.

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough. The different states of elemental matter in the Thief universe are different, and are not determined by temperature variations like in our world. In some places where there are high contrasts between elements, or high concentrations of one element, whatever state the element happens to be in sometimes condenses and forms a crystalline structure.

Whatever, it was just a theory. I don't like putting "I think" -disclaimers in front of every sentence just to indicate speculation. :D

And I know there are 4 states of matter. Plasma is just so close to gas that I didn't count it. I've made ionized carbon dioxide plasma in my microwave out of a burning match. ;)

Hamadriyad
28th May 2010, 13:36
Original Fire Arrow concept in the E3 trailer. Observe 0:40:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGRVuWpZ9lE&feature=related


Good trailer but game looks like a guard hunt. :D

Vae
28th May 2010, 15:06
Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough. The different states of elemental matter in the Thief universe are different, and are not determined by temperature variations like in our world.

Actually, you did make yourself clear. This is just incorrect, and I just proved it. You are thinking there is only one version of each element, which has lead you to an erroneous conclusion.

In the THIEF Universe, when it gets cold, water freezes into ice...when it gets hot, water becomes steam. Therefore, elemental matter state changes are determined by temperature variations like in our world. Because this is true, water crystals must be a different kind of water. A kind of water that disregards the thermodynamic property that governs state changes. The only water which could do this is magical water, in this case crystallized magical water.

This proves that there are two different versions of each element in the THIEF Universe, magical, and non-magical...and that the elemental crystals are magical in nature. This shouldn't be surprising since there are the magical elemental planes of existence.

Hypevosa
28th May 2010, 16:05
Not necessarily. The crystal itself may very well be magical, but the resultant water doesn't have to be. The magical property of the crystal could be anything from the pocketplane of water that JTR suggests, to something that converts to water with the energy of impact (the lack of crystal shards afterwards would suggest this), to a matrix of magical energy that binds the molecules of water into the crystal until energy of impact dissolves said matrix. The resultant water isn't necessarily magical in property, but ordinary water. The means if it's creation/transportation/synthesis is magical in nature though.

I personally would assume given where they synthesize (in areas where their element is present very often), that the magic matrix idea is best. The ever present magical energies slowly congeal with the molecules between them. So water molecules are trapped within a matrix of magical energies/particles overtime the same with gas, and the relatively same with fire ("fire" in this case is the ionized gases that produce the look and heat of a flame). When an arrow is exposed to enough energy, the energy causes the magic to spontaneously turn into the elements trapped within, which is why gas arrows release a ton of gas, fire arrows explode, and water arrows release alot more water than they look to contain.

The only weird one by my theory is moss arrows, because moss isn't elemental or molecular but organic. This one I'd explain saying that the magical matrix actually stores the cells of moss like it does the other elements, but instead of the magical matrix just turning to moss cells when the moss arrow is exposed to energy, the magic is absorbed into the moss cells, causing accelerated growth and spontaneous generation of matter. That would also explain why water arrows hitting moss patches makes them grow since more magical matrix is immediately infused with the moss on the crystal's impact. Vine arrows also make sense with the idea of a magical matrix, but they're enchanted in a way that they gather their magic energy back up when removed from a surface they're lodged in.

However then, by my theory gas arrows should help generate moss, where they do not now.

I highly doubt they defined exactly how the magic and the crystals and the elements work somewhere, I certainly do not recall it. So my fiction is as good as any other. I prefer the idea of the created substances not being magical while the crystals are... it kinda fits the thief world more to me since it's like how they have the mix of magic and technology, it's the mix of magic and life sciences (physics, chemistry, biology).

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2010, 16:34
This proves that there are two different versions of each element in the THIEF Universe, magical, and non-magical...and that the elemental crystals are magical in nature. This shouldn't be surprising since there are the magical elemental planes of existence.

That's a better theory, yes. So when there's a place where there is a significant amount of an element, or a significant contrast between elements, the elemental magic concentrates to that area, "magicifying" the element and turning it into it's magical counterpart, the crystal?

I don't like replacing the unknown with the word "magic" but it has to do for now. :D

btw I can't believe we're applying the scientific method to the Thief universe now. We must be bored out of our minds. :)

Hypevosa
28th May 2010, 17:32
I'm a dungeon master for a massive campaign, coming up with crap that makes remote amounts of sense is my job.

I refuse to resort to "because it's magic", there's always a more in depth explanation than that.

For on the spot hypothesizing I think I did a decent job too.

Vae
28th May 2010, 18:10
That's a better theory, yes. So when there's a place where there is a significant amount of an element, or a significant contrast between elements, the elemental magic concentrates to that area, "magicifying" the element and turning it into it's magical counterpart, the crystal?

Basically...:)

It seems that either some portion of the material world elements become charged at some point in time with magical energy and then crystallize as a result, or the magical elemental energy has always been magical, originating and emerging from the elemental plane as a crystallized matrix when the material plane and the elemental plane intersect (kind of a bleed through from the elemental plane).



I don't like replacing the unknown with the word "magic" but it has to do for now. :D

It's not unknown. Magical energy is its' own force, just like gravity...and it is a constant in the THIEF Universe.

The elemental crystals are infused with magical energy, a fire elemental is inherently a magical energy creature, and mages channel and manipulate magical energy.

There are various types and potencies of magic, with the elemental crystals capturing maybe about a 2% potency of magical energy.




btw I can't believe we're applying the scientific method to the Thief universe now. We must be bored out of our minds. :)

I'm having fun...:D



I'm a dungeon master for a massive campaign, coming up with crap that makes remote amounts of sense is my job.

I've been playing D&D for 30 years.


For on the spot hypothesizing I think I did a decent job too.

Don't worry Hype, we love you...:flowers:

Hypevosa
28th May 2010, 18:18
Playing and DMing are two different things, though I'd assume for that much time you've DMed a few times?

Since it's thief it just feels more natural to me to run with the dichotomy of science and magic together. ^_^

If you guys love me could you help me get TDM running on my machine? I'm having issues where the screen looks like it's stretched up and then recoils back to normal about twice a second, and god forbid I start moving it sometimes stretches sideways, or seemingly shoots my camera backwards and I can see more of my arm than usual. It's some weird crap, and I finally have a machine that can manage to play it at more than 10FPS.

the constant planar distortion is giving me mild nausea though, despite the fact I don't normally get motion sickness of any sort.

Fatherwoodsie
28th May 2010, 19:01
I don't know what you're talking about. Garrett collects these things called elemental "crystals". There is nothing to ignite and they aren't burning hot.







In the older titles, the fire arrows throw sparks, illuminate the area, smoke, and have the distortion "disc" to create the heatwave effect. TDS fire arrows only had illumination, and the same arrow trails as all the arrows, but they were not converted forms, just straight crystals.


are you serious? you mean to tell me that the fire arrows are not burning hot? have you played thief: the dark project? you mean to tell me that the smoke coming from the coal doesnt signify that its hot? and that its not burning garretts back? they are crystals when he picks them up, but when he pulls one out to shoot, they are flaming hot...so how do they make that transformation?

according to you, the magic itself, isnt the actual fire arrow itself, but rather the transformation of it going from a solid state to a burning gas simply by pulling out of his back? c'mon now

Hypevosa
28th May 2010, 19:08
I always assumed that the inside of the quiver was sectioned to keep arrows separate, and that the fire arrow section was probably charcoal treated or something of that nature to keep it from heating things up too much.

Vae
28th May 2010, 23:08
are you serious? you mean to tell me that the fire arrows are not burning hot? have you played thief: the dark project? you mean to tell me that the smoke coming from the coal doesnt signify that its hot? and that its not burning garretts back? they are crystals when he picks them up, but when he pulls one out to shoot, they are flaming hot...so how do they make that transformation?

according to you, the magic itself, isnt the actual fire arrow itself, but rather the transformation of it going from a solid state to a burning gas simply by pulling out of his back? c'mon now

Because the fire crystals are magical fire energy, and not "coals", they need not be hot or even warm when they glow or smoke. Magical fire has its' own rules that may or may not relate to the behavior of non-magical fire.

Vae
29th May 2010, 01:58
Yes, the elemental arrows must be magical, transformed by the magical energy of the crystal. This explains why the masculine/positive arrows (fire and air) betray gravitational forces, while the feminine/negative (water and earth) obey them. This must be due to how magical polarity reacts to gravity, as I believe was intended by LGS in the first two games. This, along with how the whole arrow materializes and dematerializes would confirm by logical deduction that the elemental arrows are magical, transmuted from magical crystalline elemental energy.

Magical fire crystals are clearly impervious from the effects of normal non-magical fire, otherwise they would never be able to form in the same time and space. The magical elemental energy is released when the crystalline matrix is shattered.

Fatherwoodsie
29th May 2010, 08:54
but still, how are the fire crystals in a calm, solid state when you find them on the ground, but when garrett pulls out a fire arrow to shoot, its in a gas state? i dont get it.

Platinumoxicity
29th May 2010, 10:54
but still, how are the fire crystals in a calm, solid state when you find them on the ground, but when garrett pulls out a fire arrow to shoot, its in a gas state? i dont get it.

wat :scratch:

Tryst
29th May 2010, 13:07
In a game that has walking, talking robots with AI far in advance of modern tech fueled only by a furnace in a time when they are still using crossbows and swords, you are debating the physics of elemental arrows?

:nut::mad2:

Fatherwoodsie
29th May 2010, 18:51
when you pick up an arrow off the ground, it doesnt have a trail of smoke, it doesnt have a glowing orb, it doesnt light up the surrounding area....its just simply a crystal shape with an orangish color... NOW, when garrett equips the fire arrow and pulls it back on the bow. you can CLEARLY see it glowing, as if it was a burning hot coal, with a trail of smoke. my question is........HOW does it make this transformation? from being a "dorment" arrow on the ground, to looking like a smaller "fire elemental". in otherwords, the fire arrow should be animated on the ground as it is in garretts hands. and PLEASE dont show me the cover picture with garrett holding the fire arrow on the bow becuase that is not an in-game action scenario, its just simply artwork
i wish i can take screen shots of what im talking about but i dont have thief installed right now. im looking on google and cant find a single photo of garrett about to shoot the fire arrow.

"In a game that has walking, talking robots with AI far in advance of modern tech fueled only by a furnace in a time when they are still using crossbows and swords, you are debating the physics of elemental arrows?"

EVERY little thing is being debated on this forum from hair blowing in the wind, to the sound of armor clanking, to garretts hands showing. and i cant debate about fire arrows? this is THE section to debate on fire arrows. i feel like its the forum against me for some reason...

Fatherwoodsie
29th May 2010, 21:38
thats why i said what i said in the first place....maybe they should create sort of a match-spark- ignite sound when garrett equips a fire arrow.... maybe the arrow bag is lined with a "flint-like" material so everytime he pulls one out of the bag, the friction of it will ignite the "flame" or "magic crystal" whatever you want to call it. like striking a match against coarse paper. i think its only logical since there is no explaination for how the fire crystal goes from a solid state to an animated state. and i also think the game would flow much better if he had some kind of inside information on all this alchemy and magic. there should be an explaination for it. it would be so simple to add, but it would enhance the feel of equipping and shooting a fire arrow.

go ahead everyone, tear me a new one

Tryst
29th May 2010, 22:27
EVERY little thing is being debated on this forum from hair blowing in the wind, to the sound of armor clanking, to garretts hands showing. and i cant debate about fire arrows? this is THE section to debate on fire arrows. i feel like its the forum against me for some reason...
What I meant was that this is a game and in a game world, anything is possible and real life physics is non-existant. The programmers could have you fire an arrow that spawns 20 Burricks, would you then debate how they all managed to squeeze into one tiny arrowhead?

It makes me laugh when I see people debating the physics of such things and then take instant healing potions for granted. If you could figure out how to create an instant healing potion that heals all wounds, cures all poisons and gives you perfect health in a second, you'd become suddenly very rich indeed. It isn't going to happen and neither is agreeing on the physics of a fire arrow.

Namdrol
29th May 2010, 23:04
It isn't going to happen
Neither is the game anytime soon, we're just filling our time and Fatherwoodsie was asking valid questions.

Vae
30th May 2010, 02:29
Tryst, stop acting like an ass. It is perfectly reasonable to analyze the inner-workings of a virtual world, especially one so richly and intelligently created. A well designed virtual universe has its' own simulated physics and energetic reality. The THIEF Universe is not virtual soup, it has structured mechanics in which those who interact with it must abide by.

Your attempt to belittle the integrity and design of the THIEF Universe, and those who wish to study it, merely shows your lack of sophistication and insight regarding the matter.

EDIT:

In addition, there is clear value for the devs. The more the mechanical inner-workings of the THIEF Universe that are understood, at least the ones where Garrett should understand, the more cohesive the devs will be able to make the game, thereby creating an even more immersive experience for the player.

Odyseeos
30th May 2010, 11:00
EDIT:

... cohesive... immersive.


Gemstone.
Carve for a thief.

Tryst
30th May 2010, 13:51
Geek-hater! :mad:
I thought this thread was about ideas regarding new types of arrows and whether you thought certain existing arrows from the game should stay. Also, as some have suggested, reinstating the rope arrows.

Hardly a geek hater since I admit to being one myself but I do understand the futility of scientific analysis of a fantasy world where anything can happen at the whim of a programmer, (and often does). Give me Pythagoras, Theory of Relativity or even Particle Physics in the real world and I can debate it till the cows come home because there are hard and fast rules as to how they can behave. Applying these RL rules to a fantasy game just isn't feasable.

Hypevosa
30th May 2010, 17:42
Now I want to know how much in the game can we chalk up to taking shortcuts or making good game mechanics, and how much is really what it's supposed to be?

Is there a crafting process at all, or to the crystals magically turn to arrows when found by someone?

Are the shafts supposed to be different colors or have any special properties, or was that just a game mechanic to make differentiation easier for the player?

Were the shafts disappearing to save processor speed, or were they supposed to disappear?

There's alot here we're trying to make into theorize as thief dogma, and we don't really know what's the way it is meant to be and what is just there because it's a videogame.

Psychomorph
30th May 2010, 20:05
Now I want to know how much in the game can we chalk up to taking shortcuts or making good game mechanics, and how much is really what it's supposed to be?

Is there a crafting process at all, or to the crystals magically turn to arrows when found by someone?

Are the shafts supposed to be different colors or have any special properties, or was that just a game mechanic to make differentiation easier for the player?

Were the shafts disappearing to save processor speed, or were they supposed to disappear?
I would give everything (not literally) to have an original Thief developer to come and answer all these questions. How are all these little details supposed to work/be? What was the intention? Why did they change the older fire arrow into what made into the final game? ...


There's alot here we're trying to make into theorize as thief dogma, and we don't really know what's the way it is meant to be and what is just there because it's a videogame.
... One thing I am confident about, not everything was perfectly thought out, some things were probably made the way they are because of random coolness effects, other things due to technical and other limitations, etc.
For instance the elemental arrow shafts that disappear, I see it as a technical limitation, they just made them disappear to not use further development time and resources to work out a more detailed implementation and effects. The question is, should all these past decisions and limitations limit the possibilities of the present? I think not, some things in Thief are worth changing and developing further.

Another situation is, that some things are not consistently represented in the games. The fire arrow in the intro is different to the fire arrow in-game, but both versions are represented in the game, so which one is the one? I believe the cutscenes are earlier development and the early in-game implementation of the fire arrow is closer to the one we see in the cutscenes, so the latest version of the fire arrow, which we have in the final game, would be the preferred way then, so the logic dictates, but I mildly disagree, everybody who sees the original (original! :D) Thief cover art (http://ui28.gamespot.com/635/thiefgarrettdt_2.jpg) must agree, that it is aesthetically and technically superior.

Vae
12th Jul 2010, 20:55
"Chaos Moss" = magical moss that has consumed blood. This magically twisted moss behaves in chaotic and strange ways...the effects are randomized, but could be anything from flesh eating (damage to anyone/thing walking across it), glowing (as to give off unwanted light), or even produce insects or a frog beast or two. it could be made to continually randomize its' wild effects in-mission or just have one random effect. The effects will be often detrimental and should not be directly beneficial to Garrett...although with creative thinking the player could turn some of the strange effects into an advantage.

Moss arrow effects:

Conscious Living - Possible short-lived immobility, varies on the type of creature.

Unconscious Living - Wraps them in a life-sustaining cocoon, which binds them for the duration of the mission, unless freed by a friendly A.I...If a water arrow is then used on the cocoon, it grows and consumes the trapped flesh, and then turns into "Chaos Moss".

Dead Creatures/Humans - Turns into "Chaos Moss", consuming the body.

Undead - Possible short-lived immobility, varies on the type of undead.

Blessed Moss Patch (Holy water applied to magical moss) - outgrows a plumsie or two for healing...Any undead are harmed as they traverse across it.


All of this should be implemented in a non-gamey way, of course...it should connect the player more to the storied environment.


I like your ideas of different effects with the Moss-Arrows, Vae. It is a good beginning.

What about if you shoot a water-arrow on a conscious living (a guard for example) after immobilise him with a moss-arrow? It kills him by strangle? Or maybe just turn him to unconscious?

We should think about others Elemental Arrows now. :)

Note: The Chaos Moss concept was inspired by jtr7...:)

There are a lot of good ideas on this thread...here is one I recently came up with...


I like the idea of how two different velocities would affect the effect of the fire arrow.

To expand, I would propose that both the fire and water elemental crystals be treated this way. Because the elemental arrows are magical in nature, different velocities could release a greater or lesser magical "burst" upon impact, yielding a range of effects.

For example, with three levels of effect:

Fire Arrow:
Level 1: 1/2 pull = a quiet, dim, small, soft burst of flame. Useful for quietly igniting torches, gas lamps, candles, powder kegs (with a fuse), and other highly flammable substances. Minimal or no damage to undead or other creatures. Will not normally alert those nearby.
Level 2: 3/4 pull = a moderately loud and bright, medium sized, burst of fire. Useful on flammable objects that require more energy to ignite (fireplaces, wood, tapestries, etc.). Also somewhat useful for slaying the undead and other creatures (half damage). Will normally alert those nearby.
Level 3: Full pull = a loud, bright, large, roaring burst of fire. Useful for slaying the undead and other creatures (full damage). The concussive force could be used to move objects and also to gain entry to certain sealed portals and containers. Not useful for igniting anything other than explosives, as the explosion snuffs out the burning flames. Will normally alert those near and far.

Water Arrow:
Level 1: 1/2 pull = a very quiet, small, soft burst of water. Useful for quietly extinguishing torches, gas lamps, and candles. Minimal damage to fire elementals and undead (with holy water). Not useful for extinguishing fireplaces or larger fires. This near silent technique will not normally alert those nearby from the sight and sound of the arrow itself.
Level 2: 3/4 pull = a fairly quiet, medium sized, burst of water. Useful for extinguishing fireplaces and other medium sized fires (e.g. on wood, tapestries, etc.) and cleaning up blood. Can be used for extinguishing torches and other small fires, although in doing so, it is slightly more detectable than using the 1/2 pull. Also somewhat useful for slaying fire elementals (half damage) and the undead (half damage with holy water). Not useful for extinguishing large fires (such as those filling a doorway). Unlikely to alert those nearby from the sight and sound of the arrow itself.
Level 3: Full pull = a large, slightly loud, shimmering, burst of water. Useful for slaying fire elementals (full damage) and the undead (full damage with holy water). Also useful for extinguishing large fires (like one filling a doorway, perhaps so that you could gain entry), expanding moss patches, and cleaning up large areas of blood. Not useful for silently snuffing out small fires, as this will normally alert those nearby.

My basic thought is to utilize the magical arrows that we already have, and alter their magical effect/behavior as a result of velocity and/or target type. This way, we don't have too many different kinds of arrows to select and find in the inventory, and more importantly, it inspires the player to think about the variety of creative applications and possibilities that the four elemental arrows have in store.

Abletto
13th Jul 2010, 01:20
My basic thought is to utilize the magical arrows that we already have, and alter their magical effect/behavior as a result of velocity and/or target type. This way, we don't have too many different kinds of arrows to select and find in the inventory, and more importantly, it inspires the player to think about the variety of creative applications and possibilities that the four elemental arrows have in store.

Awesome ;)

Asadar
15th Jul 2010, 09:39
Seducing idea. I like it.

ToughTaffer
19th Jul 2010, 20:31
I don't know, if this idea has been mentioned yet:

What I really would like to see in Thief4 is an "improved rope arrow": a rope, but with TWO arrows (on each end).
For example, if you are on the roofs of the city and you have to cross the street below, you could stick one end/one arrow in a wood material (e.g. a balcony) nearby, and shoot the other arrow across the street. As a result, the rope would be strained/stretched (?don't know the right word) across the street.
Thus you could move hand over hang along the rope across the street (sorry for my English - I hope you can guess what I mean :( ). Such an improved rope arrow would (in my opinion) open up completly new and interesting possibilities for Garrett, but would make level design more difficult for the developers, I'm afraid :scratch:

Tryst
19th Jul 2010, 23:09
Yeah. Double-ended horizontal ropes have been brought up a lot. I'm glad you mentioned the difficulty for the devs. If you can figure out how it's supposed to play out in various scenarios, and by what method the player crosses from one end to the other and dismounts, and how they deal with improper placement of the far end when a regular rope arrow needs to within reach to be pulled back out or else given up on, then you will have advanced the discussion.
The idea of a zip line would be neat, Garrett uses it in a similar fashion - One way only. Once the end has been anchored, he can only raise the bow to eye level so the gravity causes the arrow to hit a lower point. This creates an angled zip line that he can use in one direction only. Stand under the line and press "Up" or "Jump" to grab it and zip down it, automatically dismounts at the end or they could allow you to press "Down" or "Jump" to drop off halfway. He could either be forced to leave it or maybe use a quick side-to-side whip (2 second first person cutscene) to dislodge the arrow at the other end but only if he can reach one of the arrows.

It could be done but it would depend on whether the engine can allow it and how long it would take to code.

Rockn-Roll
4th Oct 2010, 06:31
Hmm...I thought I had already posted in this thread, but I don't find a post by me so here's my arrow thoughts.

One of the top fun things to do in Thief is to put out torches with the water arrows...getting just the right arc to hit the torch, or more precisely hit the wall just above the torch. I definitely think Thi4f should have the same mechanic. Oh...and for killing the fire elementals...that was awesome...really required some skill cause water arrows were limited...I think there was just enough to miss once, but miss twice and it's time to reload.

Rope arrows were slick...it was really rad to think I was in a tough spot and then look up and try a rope arrow and see it stick. Then the rope would drop down like a bit of creeper. Those climbing gloves sucked...it made it really stupid that we couldn't climb some walls that looked like they had handholds and footholds, but could climb walls that looked slick as glass. We need our rope arrows back.

I also made great use of the moss arrows...some sections of the jail in The Metal Age required using the moss arrows otherwise there would be a lot of running and hiding.

And, shooting those fire arrows and watching them fly perfectly straight was very cool...I'd really like to see that again.

The gas arrows worked great, but I kinda felt that it was cheating a bit...I wouldn't mind if there weren't any gas arrows; however, it was great that they were severely limited...I think we only got to take one on any mission. It was good for knocking out a small group of guards at once.

And, of course the broadhead arrows...I hope there's a burrick level or something to use them on.

Finally, the noisemaker arrows. I rarely used them because the guards went to the next hightened alert status when they did and it actually made it more difficult sometimes. I think the only time it really worked was when you could get the guards to go around a corner so there's no way for them to see you. But, I played through all the Thief games without shooting a single noisemaker.

Another type of arrow? It would have to be something that Garret would really make use of and fit the canon. Perhaps a hammer arrow from the hammerites? It could have a flattened tip and could punch open a door or window. Another neat arrow would be a vial-of-darkness...made from squid ink. It could temporarily blind guards...pop one into the ground in front of the guards and you could sneak across the path without them knowing where you went...it would alert them like a noisemaker, but won't allow them to see you like a noisemaker. Maybe an arrow with a suction cup at the end...stick it onto some treasure and you can hoist it away without the need to creep up to it...well...then again..that might not be as much fun as actually creeping around to get close enough to the treasure to snag it.

I'm looking foward to seeing all the vintage arrows as well as 1 or 2 new ones.

massimilianogoi
4th Oct 2010, 07:03
Smoke arrow: Makes a big black smoke where it hits. Good to make guards temporarily blind if they are inside it. Or to avoid bowmen firing at you. Or to draw attention to the smoke while you´re far away from it.

Web arrow: If it hits a door it won´t open (unless you clean it with a water arrow). If it hits the floor then guards will be stickied to it if they pass by. If it hits a window you can break it with your blackjack and it won´t make a noise. If it hits a wall you can climb it.

Scout arrow: An arrow with some sort of scout arrow at the point. Good for spying.

Blackout arrow: An anti tesla arrow. Fire it at any machinery and it will stop.

Portal arrow: Shoot it. Wherever it lands you get transported there instanctly.

Shock arrow: Shocks and kills your target if you hit him directly. Or you can shoot at metal floors to temporarily incapacitate everyone stepping on it.

Necromancer arrow: It kills with one hit. Whoever the body comes back as a zombie (or haunt if you kill a hammerite)

Barf arrow: Made of burrick barfs. Hitting a spot with this will make it smell so badly everybody will get away from it. If you hit a guard everyone will flee from him.

Mine arrow: Like a fire arrow but it can stick to walls and will only explode on contact, pressing a button or with a time limit.

Morphine arrow: Like a gas arrow. It has an area of effect where everybody that gets hit gets his alert level back to 0.

Ice arrow: Freezes water so you can walk on it (just like T2X) but you can also shoot at a guard to freeze him. And break him to pieces with your blackjack.

Puppet arrow: Shoot an arrow at a target. Now you can control all his moves.

Oblivious arrow: Shoot at a target. It will ignore you forever, even when alerted by other guards.

Rage arrow: Hit a target. It will attack his allies until taken down.

Benny arrow: Hit target. It becomes drunk.

Rust gas arrow: Destroy anything organic nearby.

PS: This is mostly for fun. Don´t take it too seriously with "NO NOT IN MY TH4 AARGH"

The only useful here, and I've already mentioned in another forum, is the Ice arrow, even if the Web arrow could be funny, with that climbing wall property. AND WE WANT A BETTER GARRET'S AGILITY THAN IN TDS, LIKE THE OLDER THIEF 2 AND THIEF 1!!!


Copied this from my post in the Armory thread:

Ammo:
Crossbow Bolt


YEAH!! Put the crossbow back for Garrett!! As in 1996!! This will be great!

tinetone
7th Aug 2011, 17:04
The only new arrow we may need would be shock arrow
It would paralyse human and beasts for limited time and this arrow eould be usefull anly if there would be people imune to gas and moss. Maybe some sewer workers who would have gas masks.
If we are talking about arrows than this could be right topic to talk about imunity to some arrows or other weapons.
As mentioned sewer workers there could be some metalurgy workers with dark glasses imune to flashbombs and guards with helmets imune to blackjack.
In T3 you could blackjacek every human unlike in T2 where some of them had helmets.

About moss arrowa and electric lights... guards coul easily remove moss from lights but you could have enough time to sneak pass them. Using water to make electric light blinking would be nice too. Sime electric lights could be better quality and not affected to water.

I guess rope arrows should be used to drag wooden crates barrels maybe even bodies and to set traps for guards.

The most important things about arrows is their limitation. Why not have limitation for 20-30 maybe more or mabe less arrows but player would be able to choose any kind of arrows. Maybe 10 broadheads and 20 water or 20 broadheads and 10 water. This would give players more freedom about strategy. We shoul also make allmighty arrows (gas arrows) more rare. In T3 you could get 5 gass arrows avery night for free. So no or amost no free gas arrows with combination with some gas masked people would make this quite balanced and not too easy.

ChaosLad
4th Nov 2011, 04:50
how about Garrett attaches his eye to arrow like your scout arrow idea :P

ChaosLad
5th Nov 2011, 12:14
no problem :)

Psyco88
22nd Nov 2011, 02:47
Hey, so I noticed somthing that really irked me in all the prior games, we had so many tools of the trade, yet if you think about it...what the hell happend to the good ole torch? like for real, that woulda made gettin rid of zombies much less of a pain.

Also, read some of the discussion (theres alot of it) and the arrow idea's are pretty sweet. I for one am all about the rope arrows and was majorly bummed about TDS not having them. The climbing gloves should stay because there are sum places where they would come in handy, maybe climbing shoes aswell, so you can shoot an arrow while on a wall?

I know Ill get flamed for this, but since we kara's built all these sweet little robots, and we have exploding arrows, can we get a better weapons control? dual equip perhapse? (I know the dev will hate trying to program two weapons, but it would be a sweet combo (granted dont just give the player any of the good stuff to start except the basics) bj, board head, water, short sword, and maybe a flash bang or two.

Are ya sticking with garrett? Or do we get a new thief?

So many different options and routes to take from all the history.

I know this is off topic, but the cradle scared the **** outa me..more than any game or irl event ever. ****in ambient noises!

Vae
22nd Nov 2011, 06:32
....can we get a better weapons control? dual equip perhapse? I know the dev will hate trying to program two weapons, but it would be a sweet combo...

I'll do ya one better...He should have a pair of these sum biatches...:cool:

http://www.apachego.com/freeman/tm-1freeman.jpg

xDarknessFallsx
22nd Nov 2011, 06:46
Rofl!! Epic post.

Hamadriyad
22nd Nov 2011, 10:25
I'll do ya one better...He should have a pair of these sum biatches...:cool:

http://www.apachego.com/freeman/tm-1freeman.jpg

Ebony and Ivory. Garrett, Gunslinger mod. :D

Hamadriyad
22nd Nov 2011, 10:56
And don't forget Altair/Ezio. :)

Psyco88
22nd Nov 2011, 17:45
Ebony and Ivory. Garrett, Gunslinger mod. :D

This would be epic.

I fell in love with the gunslinger concept long ago, but to take garrett from a bow and arrow thief to a gun toating badass would be epic greatness.

Psyco88
22nd Nov 2011, 17:59
New factions? I totally love the steam punk setting, so I dont want the time period to necessarily change, but we have had some outragous concepts flow thru the game (be it in the actual games TTDP, TTMA, T2X, TDS, + all the countless amazing (and sum utterly pitiful) mods. I feel its time to bring a new set of idea's to the drawing board. I think a more explorable world (Dont get me wrong, the whole ability to go from ground to roof top is key, but I want to travel to different citys, explore different parts of this "Thief World". There is somthing so nice about the series, it takes you from Beautiful mansions, the forest, the swamp, caves and caverns, abandonded citys, haunted buildings, churches, ect. I really enjoyed the open worldness of TDS in the fact that I could go to different destinations at my leisure, but I enjoyed TTMA for its ability to explore the world you were in to a completely more complex and "thief'y" degree. Ideally, combining the concepts from the games into one, plus a lil mix in from different worldly concepts of this day and age. Crafting would be great, Faster means of travel (perhapse we can aquire a toy of karrass that wont die (similar to that golden droid iirc)) The Robotic Eye has so much potential from the Predator different types of vision, to being a long range device.

Psyco88
22nd Nov 2011, 18:02
Garrett's so overpowered as it is. I cannot fathom how that isn't commonly understood. A torch would just piss zombies off, and/or turn them into giant moving walls of flame, so I don't see the point, when a fire arrow, a mine, holy water arrow, holy water flask, submersion, a subduing backstab, a boulder, a holy hammer, a fire elemental, and...and...a flashbomb or two, are choices already. Maybe to save a fire arrow when lighting an oil puddle? Use a flare.

Torch Damnit! Look, who do you know ever, who would go out into a cave, without a light? :mad2:

edit: you cant burn a zombie with a flare iirc

Psyco88
22nd Nov 2011, 18:12
how is he overpowered? He has limited health, little armor, happens to know how to sneak around fairly well since he was trained to do so. I think if anything, he can use any advantage he can get, plus hes missing one of his eyes! (granted replaed by a robotic one) I think a torch wouldnt throw the balance of the game, its not like they burn forever. And I think there should be a smell-o-meter as well as a light gem. Because this guy is running all over town, hes gonna sweat, if he jumps in water, he will "refresh" himself, but its not a shower, so if the guards are after him, and hes smelly, they can track him better...im getting sick of the ignorant benny guards...granted benny was histarical when we first met him, the city watch has gotta be wondering if hes doing his job. Garrett's one guy, sumhow you gotta create an inventory control, hes gotta have a house or a horse, or something to store the majority of his equipment. (the Link Hat of unending storage is not acceptable) Throwing Knives would be a nice addition, The wrist blade from AC was really intriguing. I guess its the fact that we are working with such a more powerful engine for the games these days, the demands will go up for quaility. There is much to aspire to in this game series, if the studio ever decided to make this a multiplayer game, it better damn well be in first person with the standard abilitys of a first person game EX: Walk, Run, Sprint, Lean, Jump, Climb, ect. (nothing annoys me more than picking up any game and not being able to lean)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
16th Jan 2012, 15:58
Sorry if already posted, but I was Googling for arrow images the other day and stumbled upon this. I instantly thought of this thread.
Lovin' the "pointless" arrow.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu83/T4Mod/arrowfun.jpg

The water arrow would be funny if it had a tap on the end.... and the fire arrow a matchstick. :D

If anyone can think of their own funny ideas, let's see them. :thumb:

Woldan
17th Jan 2012, 11:27
Have smoke arrows already been mentioned? Arrows with a small glass capsule as an arrow tip which holds a chemical that creates a wall of black smoke when it comes into contact with air.
To confuse mechanical security systems from a safe distance, guards chasing you, guards with ranged weapons or to conceal Garrett from guards eyes when there are no shadows and no places to hide so he can escape safely.
The smoke could also slow down breathing opponents.

Or a sticky-arrow, an arrow with a sticky substance on the tip and a rope attached to the shaft, useful when there are small things to steal which are out of reach for Garrett (Key etc.), he can shoot it through windows, through a cages bars... Make the arrow really short range and fly in a big arc.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Jan 2012, 11:49
I like the smoke arrow idea... not too sure about the sticky one though.
I guess I wouldn't want too many magical arrows at my disposal... I don't want the game to be easy. :D

joseywales1027
31st Jan 2012, 06:23
^amen to that. One of the issues i had to TDS was the amount of potions, arrows, equipment that you had so that you were always prepared for every situation. Gone was the planning, wondering if you should save that last water arrow or whatever else it could have been. You could just run willy nilly through a level, kill everything that moved, and still have equipment left over.

DarkDagger
2nd Feb 2012, 16:30
Just a thing i was wondering about... The noismaker arrow should make different noises? I think it's more original :)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Feb 2012, 23:04
I don't think I ever used the noisemaker arrow to proceed through the game... can't remember doing so anyway. If I did, it would have been because there was absolutely no other option available to me. I much prefer to sneak in the shadows or get to a loftier place with the rope arrow.

DarkDagger
3rd Feb 2012, 00:09
Me too, but this idea is something like bettering the combat system. I want it to be good even if i ghost :P

Hypevosa
3rd Feb 2012, 09:18
I think temporary sounds should cause a one time distraction that's brief and goes away, where noisemakers should be a lasting noise that causes someone to be distracted for a long time. So you need to sneak in the front door to a place, and you use a normal broadhead against the stone on the side to get him to run over and look, but he sees there's nothing and just turns back around.

After getting inside, you see 2 guards at the main vault. You use the noisemaker arrow and fire it into the next room - they go in to investigate, you spend 30 seconds clearing the vault, and leave because they're still trying to find whatever the hell is making that noise, where a one off noise would only have gotten you a few seconds.

Evantine
5th Feb 2012, 09:17
Just a thing i was wondering about... The noismaker arrow should make different noises? I think it's more original :)

I liked the way they did it in the first games even though i didn't use them very much.