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Hamadriyad
2nd Jun 2009, 18:49
How can we extinguish electric lights?They are causing so much trouble, aren't they?

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 18:51
How can we extinguish electric lights?They are causing so much trouble, aren't they?

Kind of the point, if you ask me. The electric lights represented a challenge to sneaking through the area that couldn't be dealt with by throwing water at it, and thus required a little more thinking beyond the knee jerk reaction of "light+water arrow=SUCCESS!"

AbysmalGale
2nd Jun 2009, 18:54
Kind of the point, if you ask me. The electric lights represented a challenge to sneaking through the area that couldn't be dealt with by throwing water at it, and thus required a little more thinking beyond the knee jerk reaction of "light+water arrow=SUCCESS!"

Agreed.

Some electric lights had switches in T2, others didn't. That's kinda part of the challenge.

Hamadriyad
2nd Jun 2009, 19:07
But maybe we can extinguish them in hard way.Changing fuse or something. Like COSAS Mission X. . But yes, not necessary I guess.

Zahr Dalsk
2nd Jun 2009, 19:14
I was always a bit irritated that broadhead arrows wouldn't break them, since it seemed that broadhead arrows ought to do the trick. However, because of balance reasons, I say keep them permanent, with the exception of ones with switches (but let the guards turn them back on if they find them off).

AbysmalGale
2nd Jun 2009, 19:19
I was always a bit irritated that broadhead arrows wouldn't break them, since it seemed that broadhead arrows ought to do the trick. However, because of balance reasons, I say keep them permanent, with the exception of ones with switches (but let the guards turn them back on if they find them off).

Well, you have a point there. Broadheads should damage electrical lights. Maybe something for T4? But it should be really noisy, so you wouldn't misuse such a feature.

ToMegaTherion
2nd Jun 2009, 19:23
Realism shouldn't be allowed to be invoked in order to make a game mechanic less good.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 19:24
Electric lights should have real power lines, then the player could deduct where the lines are going, follow the lines and find a fuse box. The player could flip the fuse off, then the player would have a short window of time to sneak through the place that used to have the light before a guard goes and flips the fuse back on. ;)

Hamadriyad
2nd Jun 2009, 19:29
Electric lights should have real power lines, then the player could deduct where the lines are going, follow the lines and find a fuse box. The player could flip the fuse off, then the player would have a short window of time to sneak through the place that used to have the light before a guard goes and flips the fuse back on. ;)
Good idea.
And moss arrows may be silencer. Throw a moss arrow to the light,then a broadhead. But I guess still noisy. Fuse box is good.

Hypevosa
2nd Jun 2009, 19:35
The power lines are in the walls, so following them isn't really possible. However, every complex should have a fuse box/electrical station that can be gotten into through lock picking, and disabled by removing a fuse and hiding it somewhere (just so it's not super easy, even though you could still knockout anyone who came to turn the lights back on)

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 19:51
The power lines are in the walls, so following them isn't really possible. However, every complex should have a fuse box/electrical station that can be gotten into through lock picking, and disabled by removing a fuse and hiding it somewhere (just so it's not super easy, even though you could still knockout anyone who came to turn the lights back on)

The power lines were these huge brass-shielded cables in T2, bolted outside, not inside the walls. You could follow them and find a switch. :)
But having a lock to pick in order to get to the switch in the fuse box, good idea. Or... the fuse box could have this oddly shaped fuse box key like there are nowadays.

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 19:53
You kidding? This is Thief 4! Hammerites invented dry wall and spackle after DS.

Petike the Taffer
2nd Jun 2009, 19:53
Just make it the same as in the previous games. It worked there, was challenging enough, but also avoidable and possible to eliminate.

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 19:54
Maybe defusing the light where devs intended.but i say leave it.if it aint broke..

Hypevosa
2nd Jun 2009, 20:09
The power lines were these huge brass-shielded cables in T2, bolted outside, not inside the walls. You could follow them and find a switch. :)
But having a lock to pick in order to get to the switch in the fuse box, good idea. Or... the fuse box could have this oddly shaped fuse box key like there are nowadays.

only in certain parts could you see the giant cables, in others where the light fixture had no switch, you're left to believe the cables are in the wall and go to some mysterious power source that no one has access to, how not green can you get having a light that even you can't turn off? phht...

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 20:32
only in certain parts could you see the giant cables, in others where the light fixture had no switch, you're left to believe the cables are in the wall and go to some mysterious power source that no one has access to, how not green can you get having a light that even you can't turn off? phht...

I never said that every light should have the possibility of turning it off. Some strategically placed lights, yes, but not all.

K^2
2nd Jun 2009, 20:34
(but let the guards turn them back on if they find them off).
Ha ha. Brilliant. Maybe we should also let the guards that carry torches light back the wall torches that we put out? I mean, why not? Torch is out. It shouldn't be. He has the source of fire. It seems very reasonable to me.

Yaphy
2nd Jun 2009, 20:59
The electric light could at some points be put out not near at eaven half of them. But lets say at a level there is a very bright lighted area with electric light with loads of guards. You need to find the fusebox and first pick a lock to the room and then use the lockpick to short circuit the electrics. The whole place would go dark and you need to hurry back to the know dark area, some guards gets the electrician and some other just checks the power room for rats and such. That leaves just 1 or 2 guards left in the dark. You sneak past them. get to the thing you need to steal take it and leave before the electrician gets the lights back on.

At other places the electric lights is there because you need to think longer then just put out a torch. At these point the electric light dont have a visible cable. There is just nothing you could do about these lights.


Maybe we should also let the guards that carry torches light back the wall torches that we put out? I mean, why not? Torch is out. It shouldn't be. He has the source of fire. It seems very reasonable to me.

Agreed. You just read my mind.

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 22:20
I definitely think that if it's an electric light, it should have a switch. Alternatively, make it so that if you shoot a water arrow at an electric light, the water shorts it out for awhile, then comes back on automatically after the water drips off.

That or just replace them completely with gas lights.

If you really want to make it a pain in the ass, you have a gas light, surrounded by glass. You have to break the glass with a broadhead, which makes noise, then a water arrow to put out the flame, and when a guard finds it, they can just relight it.

Or you could just shoot it with a moss arrow and have the moss grow over the glass, blocking the light.


If you really want to have a light that absolutely can't be extinguished, you can always have a magic glowing crystal.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 22:36
I think that there should be the same amount of fire-based and electric lights as we've seen in the previous games, but the electric lights should stay the way they are. A few rare lights can be switched off, but most of them should be constantly on. I mean, c'mon. Leave at least a bit of the challenge.

Hypevosa
2nd Jun 2009, 23:17
If the AI is good enough to the point where they'll seek to turn lights back on, carry torches and relight torches, etc, then I see no reason why we shouldn't be allowed to extinguish every light source by some method. I mean really, it'll turn back on eventually anyways unless you knock everyone out.

EDIT: although those glowing mushrooms could still be a problem if they aren't edible XD

K^2
2nd Jun 2009, 23:20
I definitely agree that there should be lights that cannot be put out by any means. And having some electric lights have remote switches could increase incentive to explore. Say you see an electric light in a guarded passage. It might mean that this light has a switch elsewhere that you haven't found, or that there is an alternative path to be found. Or it might actually be the only way through with no switch anywhere, and it's really a test of your stealth, but you won't know until you double check every dark corner.

If you know in advance that every electric light has a switch somewhere you can access, it would strongly diminish the effect.

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 23:23
That's what glowing magic crystals are for.

K^2
2nd Jun 2009, 23:30
Yeah, but the interesting bit is to have something that you don't know in advance if it can be turned off or not.

Hypevosa
2nd Jun 2009, 23:35
But if that light in the hall can be turned off, then when you turn it off, you never know if someone is going to turn it back on right when you're walkin through the hallway...

K^2
3rd Jun 2009, 00:11
Yeah, that would be an interesting twist. But it doesn't contradict the idea that NOT ALL electric lights can be turned off.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 00:26
What I'm arguing is that a way to balance the guard's increased AI and abilities to thwart the player's efforts, would be actually allowing the player to put out every light source. If they can all be turned back on anyways, why not?

Thieffanman
3rd Jun 2009, 01:01
Since it's a game, it is a series of layered puzzles, and the reason there have always been lights the player cannot put out are to force the player to think through the puzzles laid out before them--AND--to create unmatched tension. With usually more than one way to solve the puzzles, putting out the lights would be too easy of a solution.

Exactly!

Torches are there as an option to put out lights *if* the player thinks they need darkness. Electric lights are there to make the player think/ strategize their way around the lit spot so they won't get noticed.

I'm for leaving the lights as they are.

--Thieffanman

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 01:18
As I said, I'm just arguing it as a tradeoff to balance the fact the AI is alot better. Keeping something that made the game challenging, and adding something that makes it even more difficult is forcing challenge on people, as if you were making everyone play one difficulty up from where their comfort zone is. If the guards are going to actually make an effort to keep all the lights on (really, if I had their job I would) then there's no reason they shouldn't be able to be turned off.

See the increase AI as the new part of the puzzle to replace the fact that there are permanent lights. Now instead of lights that are permanent and lights that can be put out for good, now all lights can be restored by someone else. As long as every light didn't have it's switch immediately under it, it would be more interesting.

K^2
3rd Jun 2009, 01:25
Hypevosa, your point holds even if simply the majority of the lights can be turned off. Having a few places where they cannot be does not make it suffer. However, that's all that is needed to create tension and force puzzle solving in ways that I and the others have spoken of.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 01:52
Agreed. I just struggle with someone wanting to install a light fixture they cannot turn off, it doesn't fit logically at all to me. Maybe instead of permanent electric lights, there would be candles in nearly air tight fixtures (a hood on top to prevent water from dousing it, with glass on the sides), air holes in the bottom. That I could see. Even those would somehow have to be relit, so you could maybe stack a crate to get to the top of it, then pick the lock on the hood, and snuff the candle... That way people could go through the trouble of getting those put out still, but they'd be basically putting a big target on their back to do so for a good 30 seconds or more. And then someone comes along with a lit long wick in thin wax and shoves it through the hole in the bottom to relight it.

Where there needs to be permanent light there are still glowing mushrooms, magical light orbs and other things in the thief universe. (though those are primarily out doors things)

Like I said, I just struggle with someone wanting something that they can never turn off.

K^2
3rd Jun 2009, 04:16
We have lights at the department that can be switched off only with the main fuse box along with every other piece of electrical equipment in the building. I'm sure you wouldn't want anything like that at your home, but at various places of business, it may make sense. If a particular corridor is either in use or guarded 24/7 why bother with a switch.

And as I said, it's not knowing whether you can find the switch or not that makes for most interesting exploring, in my opinion. Because when you are looking for something that might not be there, you find a lot of things you weren't looking for along the way.

morty343
3rd Jun 2009, 04:41
With the advance in processing power for AI and graphics since TDS was released, I think the game is ready to make a magnitude-level leap. I say the complexity of dealing with things like torches and electric lights should make a leap, too. I like the idea of torch-carrying guards re-lighting wall torches, and maybe going on a higher alert level to boot. I would be fine with most (or all) electric lights having a switch or some other way to extinguish them, but with similar caveats. Say there is a switch to turn off a light in a patrolled hallway. But, the switch is right next to another one that controls the light at a stationary guard post right around the corner, and switching off the wrong one will get the nearby guard right on top of you when he investigates why his light went out. Garrett doesn't know which controls which, so does he decide to take a chance on dimming the hallway, or just instead rely on timing and stealth... you get my drift...

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 04:44
I like that idea alot, electric lights with multiple switches! You devious, evil person you. That would certainly up the ante.

GmanPro
3rd Jun 2009, 04:48
it was a treat to find the off switches for those lights in Thief 2. I just with there were more of them.

K^2
3rd Jun 2009, 05:20
I like that idea alot, electric lights with multiple switches! You devious, evil person you. That would certainly up the ante.
So there is a room with the light switches, and then there are three guarded rooms with the lights in them controlled by the three switches in the first room. You can only go into the room with switches once. How do you figure out which switch controls the lights in which room?

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 05:27
So there is a room with the light switches, and then there are three guarded rooms with the lights in them controlled by the three switches in the first room. You can only go into the room with switches once. How do you figure out which switch controls the lights in which room?

you find the note that tells you which switch goes for which room XD Or you look at the ways the cables go... or you just save before doing it and to the old save and load until you know which switches go to what rooms.

K^2
3rd Jun 2009, 05:41
You can't tell which cable goes to which switch, there is no note, and the devs are really evil, and the switches randomize each time you load the game.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 05:44
Well then you can't tell until you turn em on or off, you've just said they're randomized :P that or you just flashbomb blackjack or gas all the guards in each room, problem solved. And why wouldn't I just want to turn all the lights off to begin with?

K^2
3rd Jun 2009, 06:10
Maybe it's part of a bigger puzzle. You need to know which switch is which to be able to solve it.

You can obviously tell one switch apart from the rest. Turn it off, then see which room has the lights out. You only need to figure out a way to distinguish between the other two switches.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 06:16
If it's randomized how am I supposed to know? I feel you're not giving me enough information

See, a puzzle like this is there are 3 boxes, each labeled A, B and A+B, One contains A, one cointains B, and one contains A+B, but all you know is that all the labels are wrong, and you can only look in one box. Find out what's in each box.

That puzzle I've solved before.

kaekaelyn
3rd Jun 2009, 06:25
Oh, I heard a riddle once where a madman locks you in a room with three light switches. In the adjacent room there are three light bulbs, but you don't know which switch goes to which bulb. Once you enter the adjacent room to view which bulbs you have turned on, you cannot go back to the room with the switches. You have to be able to tell the madman which light bulb each switch is connected to.

There's a solution, but it certainly isn't feasible for Thief! You guys just reminded me :)

K^2
3rd Jun 2009, 06:38
Easy. Look into A+B box. It contains either A or B. If it's A, the B box has to contain A+B (because it can only be A or A+B to be mislabeled, and A is taken). That leaves B in the A box. If it's B, by the same logic the A box will end up with A+B, leaving the A in the B box. You could also start from any other box and follow the same reasoning.

In general, there are 6 ways of labeling 3 boxes with 3 labels. 1 with all labels on right boxes, 3 with just one label on the right box, and 2 with all labels being wrong. Since you only need to distinguish between these two, and a different label ends up on each box when you switch between these two ways, looking into any one box is sufficient to distinguish between these.

Back to the lights.

You can go into the room with switches once. All lights start out as on. You can turn the switches on and off as many times as you want, but once you leave the room with switches, you cannot reenter. So then you'll have to figure it out by looking into the rooms. Let the switches be labeled as A, B, and C, and the rooms be labeled as 1, 2, and 3. Keeping in mind the discussion above, there is a solution.


Oh, I heard a riddle once where a madman locks you in a room with three light switches. In the adjacent room there are three light bulbs, but you don't know which switch goes to which bulb. Once you enter the adjacent room to view which bulbs you have turned on, you cannot go back to the room with the switches. You have to be able to tell the madman which light bulb each switch is connected to.

There's a solution, but it certainly isn't feasible for Thief! You guys just reminded me
This is the problem I'm basing it on. :p

Yes, the thing you use in this problem isn't possible in Thief, but there is something else you can use in a very similar manner. Read morty343's post for a hint.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 06:52
you could flip one switch for a minute, then turn it off and flip another. Then you go to a room without a light on and test the bulb, if it's warm then that room was the first switch, if it's not, then the other room that's dark is the first switch. The one with the light on is obviously the second switch you flipped, and the one with the cold bulb is the switch you didn't flip. EDIT: all the bulbs are on, so this doesn't work....

Outside that, I don't see how I could figure it out (given that you can't probe bulbs for heat in thief.

Wait, do you propose I turn off lights and wait for respective guards to come turn them back on to see what switch goes to what room?

morty343
3rd Jun 2009, 06:58
Suffice to say, I think the game could survive a modest leap in complexity regarding problem-solving options (as long as they don't insist on marketing to eleven-year-olds, as they did with TDS...)

K^2
3rd Jun 2009, 07:43
Wait, do you propose I turn off lights and wait for respective guards to come turn them back on to see what switch goes to what room?
Almost. Flip switches 1 & 2 off. This will cause guards in these rooms to go alert. Then flip the switch 2 back on. So room corresponding to switch 1 will have lights off, to room 2 lights on and an alert guard, and to room 3 lights on and an oblivious guard.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 07:46
Almost. Flip switches 1 & 2 off. This will cause guards in these rooms to go alert. Then flip the switch 2 back on. So room corresponding to switch 1 will have lights off, to room 2 lights on and an alert guard, and to room 3 lights on and an oblivious guard.

Very nice, but I'd rather have all the guards in the dark and go knock em out.

Qazi
3rd Jun 2009, 08:31
Hmm. This is why Framed was such an awesome level. Shoalsgate had gas lamps, that could be frobbed back on after you had put them out.

I'll never forget the moment, while I was crouched behind the reception desk looting the hidden safe, the lights turn back on and I discovered guards could do this too.

It'd be nice if the torch bearerers actually could re-light wall torches too. Not only to they purge our shadows on proximity, they should be able to undo a water arrow's work. This mechanic would also be useful in creating another scale of difficulty for Expert. Equip a few extra guards with torches on higher difficulties, replace torches with gas lamps where a torch bearer walking around would be inappropriate..Upgrading gas to electric...

DarthEnder
3rd Jun 2009, 08:39
You can't tell which cable goes to which switch, there is no note, and the devs are really evil, and the switches randomize each time you load the game.Also, the wrong switch will shoot you with poison darts.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 09:08
That's what glowing magic crystals are for.

I wouldn't want to go shopping for lights and:

-Hmm.. I'll take 15 torches and 20 electric lights, one with an independent circuit so that stays on if other lights fail.
-Sir, there is no such a thing.
-Sure there is. I'm an electrician.
-No we only have these magic crystals.
-But they won't fit with my interior decoration.