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huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 10:18
Ok,I know im reposting/editing this for the umpteenth time (sorry to everyone that voted...)
This is now multiple choice people...

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 10:42
-The city watch with blue uniforms and metal bobby hats need to come back :)
-The Hammerites have rebuilt after T2 and are stronger than ever.
-The pagans could have chaos beasts assisting them as covert operatives and agents.
-The City underground organised crime has never went away, it's always been there.
-The undead should be still in forgotten and closed down places out of sight, where people don't dare to live.
-The keepers are finished. They can't rely on glyph magics to stay hidden anymore and they need to do some real work from now on to stay hidden and to predict events.

-A new faction would be nice. Maybe some political conspiracy or foreign assassins who are disguising themselves as the City's high officials in order to take control over the City. (Like the morph race in the old game "Flashback")

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 10:46
-The city watch with blue uniforms and metal bobby hats need to come back :)
-The Hammerites have rebuilt after T2 and are stronger than ever.
-The pagans could have chaos beasts assisting them as covert operatives and agents.
-The City underground organised crime has never went away, it's always been there.
-The undead should be still in forgotten and closed down places out of sight, where people don't dare to live.
-The keepers are finished. They can't rely on glyph magics to stay hidden anymore and they need to do some real work from now on to stay hidden and to predict events.

-A new faction would be nice. Maybe some political conspiracy or foreign assassins who are disguising themselves as the City's high officials in order to take control over the City. (Like the morph race in the old game "Flashback")
I agree with everything you say,except the new faction should be a group of noble conspirators...led by the main man Lord Bafford:cool:

esme
2nd Jun 2009, 11:49
I thought the faction system was a bit silly, expending resources to do simple favours for factions so you get a reward and where it's possible to become Garrett the best loved thief in the city where all the active factions are on your side, doesn't really work for me

now if there were a whole mission that would influence your faction status and you needed the support of one of the factions to complete the campaign, after which all the other factions would hate you for allying with their opposing faction, where you need to make a choice as to who your ally will be, then I could possibly see the sense in the faction system

as for a new faction how about something like the Illuminati secretly in control of the heads of the keepers, watch, hammers et al

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 12:01
I thought the faction system was a bit silly, expending resources to do simple favours for factions so you get a reward and where it's possible to become Garrett the best loved thief in the city where all the active factions are on your side, doesn't really work for me

now if there were a whole mission that would influence your faction status and you needed the support of one of the factions to complete the campaign, after which all the other factions would hate you for allying with their opposing faction, where you need to make a choice as to who your ally will be, then I could possibly see the sense in the faction system

as for a new faction how about something like the Illuminati secretly in control of the heads of the keepers, watch, hammers et al

In fact,I was thinking of the whole "Interactive factions" feature from TDS,and wanted to make a poll on whether it should be dumped in favour of a more focused story like the first 2 games,but I cant really seem to put it in words in a poll,matbe 3 options,like yes,keep the system,no,drop it,or yes,but only if theres proper missions to go with it or something.Anyway these should still be limited to 2 factions at most,as garrett is no errand boy..If you have an idea about what to say in the poll,please make one @esme

Zahr Dalsk
2nd Jun 2009, 12:06
Mechanists, Pagans, and Hammerites.

esme
2nd Jun 2009, 12:09
...If you have an idea about what to say in the poll,please make one @esme


keep it as in DS
remove it completely
keep it as in DS but only allow one alliance at a time
allow an alliance with a single faction only and then only after completion of a significant quest for that faction to show loyalty, after this that faction will leave you alone and you can rest securely in their enclaves
allow an alliance with a single faction only and then only after completion of a significant quest for that faction to show loyalty, after this that faction will assist you to complete the campaign
allow alliances with multiple factions but only on completion of a significant quest on behalf of each faction, after this these factions will leave you alone and you can rest securely in their enclaves
allow alliances with multiple factions but only on completion of a significant quest on behalf of each faction, after this these factions will assist you to complete the campaign


that what you are thinking of ?

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 13:32
Exactly,you make this,and I'll be your first voter!!!

esme
2nd Jun 2009, 13:50
I'm guessing you can't make a poll, ok I'll do one for you

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 14:03
I'm guessing you can't make a poll, ok I'll do one for you

No I just realised I can:scratch: still getting used to making one thats half decent

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 14:05
I wonder why it is, but every time I hear the word "faction" around here, I think of a distinctive group of people with different goals and who have a certain place in the society, but everyone else thinks of it more like a system where you make simple chores and side missions to raise a respect meter to gain alliances with NPC teams.

WTH is going on? I was tricked to come here to vote for my favorite groups but it was all about the interactive respect-o-meter system all along? Please tell me that I'm wrong. :(
The system in TDS was pathetic. Even GTA2 had a better system back then.

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 14:08
I wonder why it is, but every time I hear the word "faction" around here, I think of a distinctive group of people with different goals and who have a certain place in the society, but everyone else thinks of it more like a system where you make simple chores and side missions to raise a respect meter to gain alliances with NPC teams.

WTH is going on? I was tricked to come here to vote for my favorite groups but it was all about the interactive respect-o-meter system all along? Please tell me that I'm wrong. :(
The system in TDS was pathetic. Even GTA2 had a better system back then.

:oNo,you're wrong,this has nothing to do with side quests,killing rustmites,watering cornerstones etc,that has just been done in another poll,this is simply to see what factions people like and hopefully what factions will reappear in THI4F.(I cant bear the thought of doing a side mission for the undead,or city watch:scratch:)

esme
2nd Jun 2009, 14:50
....(I cant bear the thought of doing a side mission for the undead,or city watch:scratch:)personally I think the undead are a much maligned and misunderstood minority once you are undead it doesn't matter how good or rich or even evil and poor you were in life, everybody hates you, no one wants to be your friend except the other undead, who to be blunt aren't great conversationalists, people throw things, it's difficult to have your suit dry cleaned so you start to look shabby which makes things worse if anything

I think more effort should be made to engage the undead, try to enhance their social lives and make them feel like valued members of society

so go to your nearest crypt or catacomb now and talk to the the undead, if you are a tailor or dry cleaner then offer your services

who knows you may make a new friend or perhaps even find that life/unlife partner you've always dreamed of

GmanPro
2nd Jun 2009, 14:57
My favorites gotta be Mechanists and Undead. Everyone else is kinda a given ...

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 20:03
personally I think the undead are a much maligned and misunderstood minority once you are undead it doesn't matter how good or rich or even evil and poor you were in life, everybody hates you, no one wants to be your friend except the other undead, who to be blunt aren't great conversationalists, people throw things, it's difficult to have your suit dry cleaned so you start to look shabby which makes things worse if anything

I think more effort should be made to engage the undead, try to enhance their social lives and make them feel like valued members of society

so go to your nearest crypt or catacomb now and talk to the the undead, if you are a tailor or dry cleaner then offer your services

who knows you may make a new friend or perhaps even find that life/unlife partner you've always dreamed of

I :lol: ed when i read this,could appear as ingame text outside a necromancers lair

Petike the Taffer
2nd Jun 2009, 21:34
Hard to decide, because I like the Keepers best.

But the Hammerites are the most original of the factions (along with their later Mechanist off-shoot).

BoldEnglishman
2nd Jun 2009, 21:38
YES Hammerites are in the lead!

Petike the Taffer
2nd Jun 2009, 21:46
YES Hammerites are in the lead!

I voted for them instead of the Keepers, but just because I didn't know that it's a multiple choices poll. :(

Skarsnik
2nd Jun 2009, 22:03
The Pagan/Hammerite hostility should be used! its a great plot!

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 10:02
Hard to decide, because I like the Keepers best.

But the Hammerites are the most original of the factions (along with their later Mechanist off-shoot).

I'd like to see the mechanists return,led by Karras son ...or ....daughter .....or something,but they should keep a balance,pagans= woodsie,primitive,hammers=iron/steam/low tech mechanics (like the hammer factory in TDP) mechanists metal/electricity/ high tech stuff like cameras and robots.

Yaphy
3rd Jun 2009, 18:11
Make bigger hate between Pagans and Hammerites in T4. Could be fun...

Lady_Of_The_Vine
3rd Jun 2009, 19:08
I ended up voting for nearly all of them! :o

:D

vowdy
3rd Jun 2009, 22:04
Hammerites + mechanists for me =P

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 23:09
I say make a Burrick-men faction

Corvin25
4th Jun 2009, 07:33
Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar...
Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams...

BoldEnglishman
4th Jun 2009, 10:20
"And the word went before him on a breeze carrying our salvation. Here at least is a man with a mind of a general and the heart of a poet, yet also with the hands of a builder. He will lift us up from the earth."

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 13:55
Yess! And the Mechanists are in second!

clock12345
4th Jun 2009, 14:58
i think all of the factions should be in thief 4 eidos please make them all!!!!

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 19:47
i think all of the factions should be in thief 4 eidos please make them all!!!!

Yes, but make them feature according to demand. (make an official poll, and make factions play a part in ratio to official poll results ). That way, fans get what they want

Drackulis
6th Jun 2009, 12:38
I think there should be like an Assassin faction.
Garrett's rivals. :)

Drackulis
6th Jun 2009, 12:39
Yes, but make them feature according to demand. (make an official poll, and make factions play a part in ratio to official poll results ). That way, fans get what they want
I agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::D:D

agrash
6th Jun 2009, 21:34
Hammer's, pagan's and the city watch
I did like the mechanists technology but i hated their robot's so much that i didn't inlude them in my list

A small new underground thief faction could also be great

huzi73
7th Jun 2009, 14:37
I think there should be like an Assassin faction.
Garrett's rivals. :)

I have to disagree, why on earth would assassins rival Garrett?He hardly kills, and they dont steal. Thi4f must not be AC 3!

nydusordos
7th Jun 2009, 23:48
I agree with everything you say,except the new faction should be a group of noble conspirators...led by the main man Lord Bafford:cool:

Interesting, I was thinking something similar. Really, three out of the four major factions have now had their turn being the badguys (or source of trouble), the nobility is actually looking pretty good in comparison now.

Pagans - Tried to Destroy the City.
Hammerites (well, Mechanist splinter group) - Tried to Destroy all Life in the City.
Keepers (well, a Keeper) - Tried to Bring about the Dark Age.

I don't want the game to be predictable, but it seems the nobility has to get a little blood on their hands to even things up :).

- Ordos

Platinumoxicity
7th Jun 2009, 23:57
What if some mysterious political group had gotten info from some even more mysterious group that Garrett has been the solution to the greatest threats that the City has seen in the recent years, then this political group carefully plans an impending catastrophe that Garrett is capable of preventing, then Garrett attempts to solve the problem once again, but it was all a scheme by the even more mysterious group to draw Garrett to the open and assassinate/convict him.

Zahr Dalsk
8th Jun 2009, 00:02
Hammerites (well, Mechanist splinter group) - Tried to Destroy all Life in the City.

The Hammerites were quite opposed to the Mechanists. That said, Hammerites resemble a mix of Islam, Christianity, and 40k's Adeptus Mechanicus, so they're not exactly nice people. But they were still maintaining a decent status quo.

And the Mechanists were quite unaware of Karras' actual plans - towards the end some of them were actually starting to see him as a heretic as well, and they didn't even know about his plan to wipe out all life. The Mechanists were mostly doing nice things for people and improving the City.

I agree about the Pagans, though - that's always been their motif, disorder and working against civilization.

Crypto
8th Jun 2009, 00:48
I'm surprised the Keepers aren't leading the poll. I'm fascinated by their manipulative, cloak-and-dagger nature, even if they do fail hard at "keeping the balance." I also like the Mechanists because of the science-embracing religion twist, and the Downwind Thieves' Guild for no real reason other than they remind me of Ocean's Eleven.

nydusordos
8th Jun 2009, 10:22
The Hammerites were quite opposed to the Mechanists. That said, Hammerites resemble a mix of Islam, Christianity, and 40k's Adeptus Mechanicus, so they're not exactly nice people. But they were still maintaining a decent status quo.

Those that remained with the Hammerites, but it is implied that a sizeable portion of their numbers joined with Mechanists and they do worship the same God, have the same mortal enemy (Pagans). I consider them generally coming from the same mold.

The developers themselves hinted that the Hammerites were inspired by the Catholics and the Mechanists by the Protestants.


And the Mechanists were quite unaware of Karras' actual plans - towards the end some of them were actually starting to see him as a heretic as well, and they didn't even know about his plan to wipe out all life. The Mechanists were mostly doing nice things for people and improving the City.

Yeaaahhhhhh.... I guess, but they weren't exactly opposed to the wiping out of the Pagans, were they? Or the torturing of the poor and homeless and converting them to slavery...It took more than one man to do the evil stuff they did :).


I agree about the Pagans, though - that's always been their motif, disorder and working against civilization.

Yuppers! If Thief was an MMO and I could join any faction I wanted, I'd definately be a Hammerite and spend all my time ranting about the damn pagans :).

- NO

BoldEnglishman
8th Jun 2009, 11:01
Well I have to disagree, Hammerites and Mechanists are quite seperate in my opinion. As was mentioned before, the Hammerites were largely opposed to the Mechanists, with the only 2 encounters with Hammerites during the Metal Age centering on their opposition to "the accursed heretics".

Furthermore, while they may worship the same deity, they have fundamentally different goals and objectives. The Mechanists (also as mentioned before), focused specifically on technology - and were far more sophisticated in that field than the Hammerites were. To the Mechanists, technology was everything. Robots, security cammeras, defence turrets, the Servants, the cultivators and the Necrotic Mutox, the Cetus Amicus, Angelwatch, Cid Capezza's Inventors Shop, the doors that are opened with gears, everything was about technology. Also, the Mechanists embraced the nobles as part of their master plan to bring about the Builder's Paradise. They didn't like them - neither did the Hammerites - but the difference here is that the Hammerites never dealt with them unless said nobles belonged to their Order (like Truart senior).

The Hammerites on the other hand concerned themselves with more matters than the Mechanists did. Sure, they liked technology - and basically all of the technology you see in the Dark Project came from the Hammerites - but they were clearly not as obsessed as the Mechanists. Remember that Karras was ousted from their order because of the fact that he was so technologically focused. In addition to technology, the Hammerites also served as an unofficial police force, serving as judge, jury, and executioner. It is mentioned in the Dark Project that they would basically just roam the streets, looking for heathens to punish - they even broke into Bafford's gambling den "Dreckboun" and kidnapped some of his patrons. Plus, they had their own external prison facility - Cragscleft. Furthermore, the Hammerites were far more self disciplined and strict in comparison to the Mechanists. The Hammerites just seemed to be more, traditional - for lack of a better word. The Hammerites lived quite isolated and solitary lives, adhering to their strict tenets in every act they performed. Where Mechanists were constantly slaving over technology, Hammerites may have also been tending to the garden, praying, meeting in congregation and other more 'traditionally religious' activities. Not to mention the fact that the Hammerites did not engage in a genocide of the Pagans.

The Hammerites were at least balanced enough that the Keepers entrusted the Air Talisman to their care - I'm pretty sure the Keepers did not trust the Mechanists so.

huzi73
8th Jun 2009, 11:42
Yeah, the Hammers did not engage the Pagans unless it was entirely neccesary. They did not go into forests and massacre Pagans the way the mechanists did (TMA trail of blood).The hammers were fanatical, hardcore,but civilised and intelligent.

Zahr Dalsk
8th Jun 2009, 12:24
Those that remained with the Hammerites, but it is implied that a sizeable portion of their numbers joined with Mechanists and they do worship the same God, have the same mortal enemy (Pagans). I consider them generally coming from the same mold.

Then you must have skipped all the dialogue and readable items in Thief 1 and 2, because their ideology is vastly different. Mechanists were progressive both socially and technologically, aiming to generally improve life. Hammerites were more like Islam, stagnating culturally and employing rather brutal measures.


The developers themselves hinted that the Hammerites were inspired by the Catholics

"Before death came, the liars were made to feast upon the hands of the thieves, and the thieves were made to ingest the tongues of their liar brothers, and we praised the Master Builder for his judgements."

I'm thinking Islam :) Christianity has its fair share of bad things on its record, but Islam is more in keeping with the Hammerites' notions of justice.


Yeaaahhhhhh.... I guess, but they weren't exactly opposed to the wiping out of the Pagans, were they?

Of course they weren't. Pagans represented a danger to civilization.


Or the torturing of the poor and homeless and converting them to slavery...

They never tortured them as far as I know. Just picked them up, killed them, and reanimated their bodies.

Moon Hoplite
8th Jun 2009, 12:28
I like the aspects of magic in this game, good story and theme...

huzi73
8th Jun 2009, 16:53
Y'know, I recently went to Dubai, and on the plane, there was a dude with full islamic garb, a turban, beard etc. And everyone was like zomfgpwnd! We're all gona die terrorist! To top it off, the guy sat next to me... And then i decided to greet him, and we had a perfectly normal human, non violent, non western hating conversation. This sparked my interest in Islam. And while it does have certain major differences compared to both judaism and christianity,many beliefs between the 3 are similar. And to label every follower of islam barbaric, is as good as labeling every german a nazi. Its simply isnt called for. No one deserves to be judged according to what his next fellow man does.Not all islamist's are crazy,not all americans are sinners, not all russians are communists etc.Please dont turn this into a religious/racist issue,all men are perfectly equal.Sorry if this bores you, but this had to be said. Hammers and mechanists are purely fictional. Dont mix them up with real life

BoldEnglishman
8th Jun 2009, 20:58
I don't think Zahr Dalsk was being rascist, if that's what you mean.

Zahr Dalsk
8th Jun 2009, 21:09
Did I call followers of Islam anything bad? No, indeed my initial response on learning that someone follows a religion is in fact pity. But Islam is a rather violent and hateful religion, similar to Christianity. If you follow a religion, don't complain if people associate you with that religion.

Crypto
8th Jun 2009, 22:06
The difference, Zahr, is that Jesus intended that Christianity be a religion based on love, alms, etc. Later on, the Church lost much of its piety (not sure if that's the word I'm looking for but it'll do) when it entered the political arena. Islam, on the other hand, was essentially founded on war: Within two years of Muhammad's exile to Medina, he fought a pitched battle against the Meccans at Badr. While Christianity spread peacefully through the Roman Empire—suffering persecution rather than taking up arms in rebellion—and only became a political force when Rome's demise opened up a power vacuum in Europe, Islam from the outset expanded through war. Within thirty years of Muhammad's death and the rise of the Rashidun Caliphate, Islam had utterly wiped out the Sassanian Empire and conquered all Byzantine holdings south of Asia Minor.

Christianity is not at its core a violent religion. Jesus didn't rise up in bloody revolt against the Romans. Muhammad, however, was not afraid to commit to war to subjugate non-believing neighbors.

nydusordos
8th Jun 2009, 22:33
Then you must have skipped all the dialogue and readable items in Thief 1 and 2, because their ideology is vastly different. Mechanists were progressive both socially and technologically, aiming to generally improve life. Hammerites were more like Islam, stagnating culturally and employing rather brutal measures.

Didn't skip the dialogue, the Hammerites were opposed to the Mechanists like the Catholic Church was opposed to the reformation. True, but doesn't change the fact that they are both Christian.

The games themselves repeatedly refer to the Mechanists as a splinter group coming from the Hammerites.

Not sure what the disagreement is.


I'm thinking Islam :) Christianity has its fair share of bad things on its record, but Islam is more in keeping with the Hammerites' notions of justice.

Yeah, I suppose, but Christianity has evolved quite a bit over the past 2000 years. There was a time when Christianity had a pretty brutal notion of justice too.


They never tortured them as far as I know. Just picked them up, killed them, and reanimated their bodies.

Lovely, a Mechanist apologist :).

- NO

nydusordos
8th Jun 2009, 22:35
Christianity is not at its core a violent religion. Jesus didn't rise up in bloody revolt against the Romans. Muhammad, however, was not afraid to commit to war to subjugate non-believing neighbors.

I'm not touching this debate with a ten-foot pole!

- NO

MasterTaffer
8th Jun 2009, 22:41
Hammerites are blatantly based on the early Roman Catholic Church and their liberal use of heresy claims to imprison and execute "heretics." If they are based on Islam, then I'm Mr. Peanut.

Crypto
8th Jun 2009, 22:53
The Order of the Hammer probably draws influence from both Christianity and Islam, as well as more specific organizations such as orders of monastic knights (particularly the Knights Templar). The Catholic Church helped build Western Civilization in a number of ways and its atrocities—bear in mind that all political institutions commit atrocities at some point in their existence—shouldn't, as unfortunately they often are, be the only measuring stick. It irritates me that many opponents of the Church focus on the Baltic Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. and ignore how in many areas Christianity has been a major asset to civilization.

nydusordos
8th Jun 2009, 23:17
The Order of the Hammer probably draws influence from both Christianity and Islam, as well as more specific organizations such as orders of monastic knights (particularly the Knights Templar). The Catholic Church helped build Western Civilization in a number of ways and its atrocities—bear in mind that all political institutions commit atrocities at some point in their existence—shouldn't, as unfortunately they often are, be the only measuring stick. It irritates me that many opponents of the Church focus on the Baltic Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. and ignore how in many areas Christianity has been a major asset to civilization.

I'm sure they drew inspiration from from a couple of sources, yes.

I'm not sure any of the popular Christian sects has clean hands, but I think they've all done good things at times too.

For example: once upon a time, the Catholic Church was the only institution going out of it's way to teach the poor how to read and write. That doesn't exuse things like the Inquisition, of course, but bares recognition.

- NO

Crypto
8th Jun 2009, 23:24
No sect has clean hands, period. I agree that good deeds don't excuse the Inquisition, but I ask you: Why are people so quick to jump on the Catholic Church for its atrocities, but not other institutions for their atrocities? Christianity suffers because of its societal prominence in the West, a prominence which now exists because of how attractive Christianity actually was to the common people of the classical and medieval eras. Church-bashing has become a trend, and capitalization on the trend by widely read pulp writers like Dan Brown and authoritative-sounding "historians" like Peter Watson only bolster the trend.

Platinumoxicity
8th Jun 2009, 23:42
Let's not start this thing here too. I just recently trolled some muslim sympathizer dude in TTLG by comparing the negative aspects of that religion to the Hammerites (Which seem to be the favorite faction 'round here :D ) and he got all butthurt and started calling me a "racist" even though I said nothing about anyone's skin color. If this discussion continues this way it's going to get like that too.

nydusordos
8th Jun 2009, 23:44
No sect has clean hands, period. I agree that good deeds don't excuse the Inquisition, but I ask you: Why are people so quick to jump on the Catholic Church for its atrocities, but not other institutions for their atrocities? Christianity suffers because of its societal prominence in the West, a prominence which now exists because of how attractive Christianity actually was to the common people of the classical and medieval eras. Church-bashing has become a trend, and capitalization on the trend by widely read pulp writers like Dan Brown and authoritative-sounding "historians" like Peter Watson only bolster the trend.

Why? Because people like to blame "ideas" and "institutions" and (literally) "inanimate objects" for all their problems :).

To be honest, I'm an Atheist, but that doesn't give me a negative outlook on religion as many might assume. I see religion in an unbiased light and I'm not sure "religion" has been the source of of history's worst atrocities. Considering that the two largest atheistic societies of the 20th century were the Communists and Fascists, I tend to point to an ugly side of human nature.

Anyways, we digress! The Hammerites were awsome!

- NO

- NO

nydusordos
8th Jun 2009, 23:47
Let's not start this thing here too. I just recently trolled some muslim sympathizer dude in TTLG by comparing the negative aspects of that religion to the Hammerites (Which seem to be the favorite faction 'round here :D ) and he got all butthurt and started calling me a "racist" even though I said nothing about anyone's skin color. If this discussion continues this way it's going to get like that too.

Yeah, politics religion and women always tend always to lead to silly arguments. Some people are quite sensitive and see insults where there are none intended.

Hammerites Rock!

- NO

Crypto
9th Jun 2009, 01:02
All right, I'll fold. I tend to get wrapped up in religious debates too quickly. Anyway, nice to have a rational chat, nydusordos.

nydusordos
9th Jun 2009, 01:37
Kudos.

I'm sure we'll stumble into it again :).

- NO

huzi73
10th Jun 2009, 12:23
Kudos.

I'm sure we'll stumble into it again :).

- NO


Well, you just did;)

(I promise I wont bring this up again)


Did I call followers of Islam anything bad? No, indeed my initial response on learning that someone follows a religion is in fact pity. But Islam is a rather violent and hateful religion, similar to Christianity. If you follow a religion, don't complain if people associate you with that religion.

:lol: So your'e telling me that the average quiet muslim neighbour who helps my gran cross the street is a terrorist JUST because his muslim? Cmon, all im saying is dont paint everybody with the same brush. The guy who was responsible for the columbia school massacre was white/christian/whatever im not really sure. So just because he was violent, doesnt mean all whites/christians are crazed murderers.




The difference, Zahr, is that Jesus intended that Christianity be a religion based on love, alms, etc. Later on, the Church lost much of its piety (not sure if that's the word I'm looking for but it'll do) when it entered the political arena. Islam, on the other hand, was essentially founded on war: Within two years of Muhammad's exile to Medina, he fought a pitched battle against the Meccans at Badr. While Christianity spread peacefully through the Roman Empire—suffering persecution rather than taking up arms in rebellion—and only became a political force when Rome's demise opened up a power vacuum in Europe, Islam from the outset expanded through war. Within thirty years of Muhammad's death and the rise of the Rashidun Caliphate, Islam had utterly wiped out the Sassanian Empire and conquered all Byzantine holdings south of Asia Minor.

Christianity is not at its core a violent religion. Jesus didn't rise up in bloody revolt against the Romans. Muhammad, however, was not afraid to commit to war to subjugate non-believing neighbors.

True,except that all the years the prophet Muhammed lived in Mecca (12 years I think...) along with his followers, they were persecuted just as the Christians were during the Christ era.And the same "violent prophet" ordered them NOT to retaliate


Oh yeah, and off the record,Islam does have really strict beliefs on theft (cutting off of one hand if a person is caught stealing)But, this requires at least four witnesses to actually see the action of one stealing the item, rather than just being trigger (sword?) happy.

(you can see how effective this is in certain Islamic countries, where, at prayer time, shopkeepers will simply throw a piece of cloth over their items for sale, and go for 5-10 minutes to pray, and come back to a store with absolutely nothing missing I've actually witnessed this 1st hand,AT A JEWELERY STORE!!!!) But anyway everybody that reads this, please dont reply in attempt to ignite the 3rd world war, or make hammerites wearing turbans or whatever...

If you hate me, PM me...

JUST MY 2c (Or more like 2 dollars)

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 13:10
Yeah let's stop here. And no huzi73, nobody hates you. Actually nobody has the right to hate you, no matter how badly you insult anyone's religion, be it islam, chrisianity, buddhism etc. No man has the right to be pissed at someone who insults their religion. Nobody has the right to demand respect for one's religion. If I want to insult someone's religion, and they really do believe in some supreme being, my beef is not with the people of the religion, no. My beef is with the god and he's the only one who has the right to get pissed at me for bashing his religion, and if he really does exist, he can beat the crap out of me for offending him.

Hammerites FTW

huzi73
10th Jun 2009, 13:15
Yeah let's stop here. And no huzi73, nobody hates you. Actually nobody has the right to hate you, no matter how badly you insult anyone's religion, be it islam, chrisianity, buddhism etc. No man has the right to be pissed at someone who insults their religion. Nobody has the right to demand respect for one's religion. If I want to insult someone's religion, and they really do believe in some supreme being, my beef is not with the people of the religion, no. My beef is with the god and he's the only one who has the right to get pissed at me for bashing his religion, and if he really does exist, he can beat the crap out of me for offending him.

Hammerites FTW

:oWow! that was ...inspirational! Im gonna make that my new signature:o

Please let me know how it goes with you and god....:wave:

I've only recently pplayed Thief gold, and after playing the mage towers, I actually love the mages almost as much as I love the Mechanists!
However, I've dot a really interesting Question. Does anyone remember at the difficulty screen before the mage towers, Theres a certain guard Captain Ragalio, who was leading a crusade to find the talismans?

Since the talismans could only be used for opening the cathedral, why would the mages want them? also, in the movie before the mission, the keeper scriptures mention not knowing the mages intentions, and watching them closely.
Are the mages really more sinister than we think???

Could make for a good THI4F story...

Inbred Pageboy
20th Jun 2009, 03:38
Gotta vote for City Watch for a few reasons:

1 Benny
2 A LOT of funny conversations, comments
3 and stupidity!


"Happy treeing... or whatever"
"That's Guards 1, Shadow-Hiding Thieves 0!"
"Helllllls Belllls!!"
""Prbably my own echo......"

huzi73
20th Jun 2009, 10:07
I just loved the way that guard from TDP used to say "Helo...oo (frightened) is anyone there (nervous) " then im not too sure, but I think he says "must be my imagination ho ho ho (stupid)".

Wow, il give THI4F an extra few points if they just include that guard again...

nydusordos
22nd Jun 2009, 02:54
I just loved the way that guard from TDP used to say "Helo...oo (frightened) is anyone there (nervous) " then im not too sure, but I think he says "must be my imagination ho ho ho (stupid)".

Wow, il give THI4F an extra few points if they just include that guard again...

He's a must!

- NO

LordGervasius
22nd Jun 2009, 04:50
mechanists, hammerites, and city watch had some hilarious characters and conversations

huzi73
23rd Jun 2009, 13:16
I personally hated the feel and look of the hammers in TDS. They seemed a lot "bigger " in TDP

OldSkull
25th Jun 2009, 17:34
Mechanists - many of them (not couting those in City) were in Karath Din and Pagan forests during events of "Sabotage...", there was some charismatic person (perhaps engineer in KD or brave warrior?) who took leadership over the Order.
Hammerites - still getiing more powerful
Pagans - they were in every Thief, so they _must_ be
City Watch - let's think: Mosley was 3rd in command, Hagen was "Framed", Sherrif was murdered - does she lead the CW? :>

PS:
faction realtions in TDS was a great idea - but badly made.

kabatta
25th Jun 2009, 20:15
Do I really have to pick? I like all factions. :)

jtr7
25th Jun 2009, 20:26
:oWow! that was ...inspirational! Im gonna make that my new signature:o

Please let me know how it goes with you and god....:wave:

I've only recently pplayed Thief gold, and after playing the mage towers, I actually love the mages almost as much as I love the Mechanists!
However, I've dot a really interesting Question. Does anyone remember at the difficulty screen before the mage towers, Theres a certain guard Captain Ragalio, who was leading a crusade to find the talismans?

Since the talismans could only be used for opening the cathedral, why would the mages want them? also, in the movie before the mission, the keeper scriptures mention not knowing the mages intentions, and watching them closely.
Are the mages really more sinister than we think???

Could make for a good THI4F story...

They are Elementalists and I'm sure they would really like to have all of them, not as Ward-breakers (which would be really scary, if they were trying to get at They Eye, but there's no evidence for that), but because they actually generate the elements. They may even be interested in trying to figure out how they were created.

The Earth Talisman is the only one that doesn't seem to create its element around it, while the Water Talisman of TDP created water (and even Lady Valerius considered it powerful and wanted to use it somehow for some scheme), the Fire Talisman created heat and eventually flame and needed to be cooled to handle, the Air Talisman generated gases (but apparently a nicer, cleaner kind compared to a gas crystal).

Since we never find out what they had planned, their story is one of many left unfinished. Something brought them from the east, and they don't really care much for The City, and they are searching for the Talismans (not by themselves, but hiring people much less qualified to do it for them), and I can't help but wonder if Azaran and the Book of Ash are the connection between them all.

Dunno.

Keeper Gurgul
25th Jun 2009, 21:54
For me definitely Pagans and the Kurshok (this "pre-human civilization", even predating the builders of Karath Din, that sorts of theme adds a lot of potential to the Thief world). As for the City Watch, their uniforms, training and equipment could be dependant on the wealth (watch is financed by the interest groups) and prestige of the particular City district - i.e. the good old folks with the representative blue uniforms and metal bobby hats could guard the patricians' and merchants' districts (also protecting important individuals), the "low-rank" watch version from Thief: DS could, on the other hand, be thrown into the poor neighbourhoods and dangerous alleys, and perform mean jobs, work as prison guards, etc. This could open a nice opportunity for rivalry between different watch precints, beneficial to the City's Underworld.

Platinumoxicity
25th Jun 2009, 22:10
For me definitely Pagans and the Kurshok (this "pre-human civilization" theme adds a lot of potential to the Thief world). As for the City Watch, their uniforms, training and equipment could be dependant on the wealth (watch is financed by the interest groups) and prestige of the particular City district - i.e. the good old folks with the representative blue uniforms and metal bobby hats could guard the patricians' and merchants' districts (also protecting important personas), the "low-rank" watch version from Thief: DS could, on the other hand, be thrown into the poor neighbourhoods and dangerous alleys, and perform men jobs, work as prison guards, etc. This could open a nice opportunity for rivalry between different watch precints, beneficial to the City's Underworld.

I'm just wondering, if you like the bluecoats with metal bobby hats, why would you want the lame and uninteresting "retextured hammerite" -City watch at all? The watch officers in TDS seemed like an afterthought, they didn't stand out at all. They were the most boring type of human enemy in TDS.

I think all the watch officers should have the uniform and the helmet. Now that I think of it, a uniform is not even a "uniform" if there are 2 different types.

huzi73
26th Jun 2009, 14:20
They are Elementalists and I'm sure they would really like to have all of them, not as Ward-breakers (which would be really scary, if they were trying to get at They Eye, but there's no evidence for that), but because they actually generate the elements. They may even be interested in trying to figure out how they were created.

The Earth Talisman is the only one that doesn't seem to create its element around it, while the Water Talisman of TDP created water (and even Lady Valerius considered it powerful and wanted to use it somehow for some scheme), the Fire Talisman created heat and eventually flame and needed to be cooled to handle, the Air Talisman generated gases (but apparently a nicer, cleaner kind compared to a gas crystal).

Since we never find out what they had planned, their story is one of many left unfinished. Something brought them from the east, and they don't really care much for The City, and they are searching for the Talismans (not by themselves, but hiring people much less qualified to do it for them), and I can't help but wonder if Azaran and the Book of Ash are the connection between them all.

Dunno.

Could be a significant factor in the story. - The talismans.

What about the book of ash??

That, could potentially be the most devastating item to posess since the eye!

hellknightlizz
26th Jun 2009, 21:27
Hammerites all the way :D, though between the Mechanists and the Hammerites, the Hammer's only win by a small margin! I always jump if I turn a corner and hear "I SHALL SMITE THEEEEEEEEE!", it's quite frightening at 2 in the morning...

Arkanis
26th Jun 2009, 22:13
Go Hammerites! I love them because 99% of the time I play a Paladin in a game. It's kind of funny being on the opposite side and thinking "Man, these bible-thumping psychos deserve a brick to the forehead".

[PT] Garret [PT]
13th Jul 2009, 12:27
:oNo,you're wrong,this has nothing to do with side quests,killing rustmites,watering cornerstones etc,that has just been done in another poll,this is simply to see what factions people like and hopefully what factions will reappear in THI4F.(I cant bear the thought of doing a side mission for the undead,or city watch:scratch:)


WATERING cornerstones??? tought it was with moss arrows :eek:

LARALOVERnr1
13th Jul 2009, 13:08
I loooove zombie's! :D

huzi73
16th Jul 2009, 10:55
Im actually quite surprised the creatures got so few votes,
They reallly added the whole mystique factor to the city...

jtr7
16th Jul 2009, 11:06
..................

Kold
21st Jul 2009, 00:47
I voted Keepers and Pagans =P

The Pagan Poet
21st Jul 2009, 02:17
Pagans! Pagans!
Praise be to the woodsie lord!

huzi73
23rd Jul 2009, 09:35
Only 98 voters :hmm:

esme
23rd Jul 2009, 09:40
Only 98 voters :hmm:

I'm surprised there's that many

huzi73
11th Sep 2009, 21:39
Somebody please make this poll GRAB the attention of the devs, so that they know whick factions to include in the game and to what extent should they feature. Hammers = awesomeness

GhostStealth
11th Sep 2009, 23:30
The Hand "brotherhood" Mages that study the lore of necromancy, who dwell high up in the icy mountains, near the city, the same mountain who has the Cragscleft prison, down by the roots of that mountain.

Secondary
12th Sep 2009, 00:17
though i often found myslef detesting their occasional biggotry i found myslef routing for the Hammerites whenever i encountered them. i especially felt sorry for inspector Drept in TDS, hes a character i think should return.

jtr7
12th Sep 2009, 00:42
.....................

huzi73
12th Sep 2009, 10:31
The Hand "brotherhood" Mages that study the lore of necromancy, who dwell high up in the icy mountains, near the city, the same mountain who has the Cragscleft prison, down by the roots of that mountain.

Correct me if im wrong, but dont the Hand brotherhood totally oppose necromancy?

darkmagicasorseer
12th Sep 2009, 18:15
New Faction! The French Foreign Legion... ha ha ha...

jtr7
12th Sep 2009, 22:58
.......................

huzi73
13th Sep 2009, 20:13
As long as the necromancer faction doesnt become a typical dumbed down regular vampire faction, and as long as zombies dont become too humanlike or intelligent, than i would love to see the brotherhood of ash

jtr7
14th Sep 2009, 00:31
...............

esme
14th Sep 2009, 14:37
The Spanish Inquisition !

no one expects the spanish inquisition ;)

huzi73
14th Sep 2009, 21:24
Id like to see the hand mages "eastern origions" a bit more

Yaphy
15th Sep 2009, 16:18
The Northen Viking Faction! (jk)

Davehall380
15th Sep 2009, 16:55
The Order of the Hammer probably draws influence from both Christianity and Islam, as well as more specific organizations such as orders of monastic knights (particularly the Knights Templar). The Catholic Church helped build Western Civilization in a number of ways and its atrocities—bear in mind that all political institutions commit atrocities at some point in their existence—shouldn't, as unfortunately they often are, be the only measuring stick. It irritates me that many opponents of the Church focus on the Baltic Crusades, the Inquisition, etc. and ignore how in many areas Christianity has been a major asset to civilization.

Christianity (along with many world religions) is responsible for the majority of most the of the worlds conflicts.

The Order of the Hammer seems to draw more influence (as you pointed out) from a military order based on the study and reading of specific doctrines.

"As approved by his Eminence, the High Priest Markander, we deliver unto you this

Novice, under the standard agreement of service. The Novice is sent with full status and
training as such, and should serve with humility and vigor to the best of his skills. He
will endure a standard three-year contract of service, at the end of which he will be
considered for indoctrination as an Elevated Acolyte.

The novice has been instructed in the rules and strictures of the Order, has sworn his
warrants to be silent in his vigils, and knows to maintain the marked privacies (as
indicated by the standard inverted red hammer sigil).

Please remit periodic evaluations of his conduct, as warranted or at six-month intervals.
May the Hammer fall on the unrighteous.

Officially,
Brother Sachelman"

"The sacred Skull of St. Yora, a builder of vision and devout keeper of the faith."

These are two in game texts from Undercover (i couldnt be bothered to find more relevant ones'. The constant references to 'brothers', and a hierarchical system (from Novice to High Priest), and post-humous veneration (St. Yora) bears many similarities to Templar, monastic and even (to an extent) masonic ideas on brotherhood, progression and hierarchy. It has connotations of repression, righteousness and intolerance that are typical of practices such as Catholics (this is not meant to cause offensive but is a reference to historical events and an illustration of past actions) or doctrinal splinter groups (such as the Constantinople Orthodoxy).

jtr7
15th Sep 2009, 23:50
The Rosicrucians and the Spanish Inquisition, Catholics (Hammers) vs. Protestants (Mechanists), are the quoted sources.

huzi73
18th Sep 2009, 17:25
Ok, take a chill pill, how about the hand mages become more middle eastern,(persian/babylonian) style, and a new faction, far eastern (japanese) style.in terms of weapon design, clothing style, and architecture?

Aceyalone7777
21st Sep 2009, 22:47
I don't know, I just don't like the Pagans...
But Victoria ROCKS!

huzi73
23rd Sep 2009, 08:58
As long as Garrett doesnt bump into her while "robbing" a brothel, she may return...