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SuperFrisbie
2nd Jun 2009, 03:56
I thought that Thief: Deadly Shadows had a perfect ending:

"They've all gone... What will become of the city without us?" left such a huge cliffhanger and made me wonder: damn, what WILL happen?

Building off of the keepers, what exactly will happen to the glyphs? the final glyph was activated, and it is never said what it does, other than... neutralize gamall's demon form

Then there's the child that it is implied that Garrett takes in in the very end. Is the child going to be the main character? (personally, i hope not, because Garrett is just too badass and Stephen R. plays the perfect voice for him.)

Now, I really cannot wait to see the story that Thief 4 could possess. What I would love to see is:
Keep it in the City
Keep Garrett, but encoorperate the child
As many scary as hell levels as well as regular thief levels. soo... longass storyline!
(Irrellivent to story but) BRING BACK ROPE ARROWS!!!!
I want it to answer the question of what happens to the city, the keepers, AND the glyphs.

Anyway, thanks for reading my rant and putting up with my *****ing! so just curious: wat do all you people think about the end of DS and what the story of Thief 4 could be like.

Hamadriyad
2nd Jun 2009, 07:58
I like this thread, I like TDS ending too much. I don't have an idea about what will happen but the girl should be active in the story in my opinion.(not main character and not co-op of course)
And I want it to answer the question of what happens to the city, the keepers, AND the glyphs too.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 08:58
This is a neutral post with an honest question.
I've been ranting against the girl this whole time here, and I've heard the same excuse over and over, but I've never even considered really asking the ones who defend the girl this:

Why do you want the little girl to play a major role in T4, and can you imagine T4 without her?

These answers have been heard too many times, so please answer more specifically:
-Garrett takes the girl with him in the end of T3 with 99% certainty. We can't ignore important happenings in the past. (They didn't finish the conversation in the end cutscene. The whole ending hasn't been revealed.)
-That's called "Character development". Garrett's character becomes dull if his personality always stays the same, so he must develop compassion. (If you think this way, explain exactly how does Garrett become dull over time?)
-Garrett is old now. It's time to change the character. (No proof of that one whatsoever)
-Garrett is a keeper now. It's time to change the character. (Has being an acolyte or a keeper ever stopped Garrett from being a thief? Remember TDP?)

Please tell me why do so many people want the girl to be a major character in T4? I simply don't understand what's so special about her. I don't want to argue this time. I just want to know what's on your mind.

Hamadriyad
2nd Jun 2009, 10:02
Because not an easy thing to see a keeper(especially a True Keeper) and a master thief. She saw him and because of this I think she is special and she has to play a role.(major or minor, maybe just references)
Garrett is a keeper now but his character is not change exactly. He is not One True City Watch. So he is just wiser than he was, he has the power of knowledge. What's wrong with that? He is the same Garrett but a little bit different. Not opposite
Like Gandalf the Grey-Gandalf the White. Not Saruman the White-Saruman the traitor.
So why you against the girl?

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 10:20
Because not an easy thing to see a keeper(especially a True Keeper) and a master thief. She saw him and because of this I think she is special and she has to play a role.(major or minor, maybe just references)
Garrett is a keeper now but his character is not change exactly. He is not One True City Watch. So he is just wiser than he was, he has the power of knowledge. What's wrong with that? He is the same Garrett but a little bit different. Not opposite
Like Gandalf the Gary-Gandalf the White. Not Saruman the White-Saruman the traitor.
So why you against the girl?

Because Garrett has been against the keepers all the way from the start, throwing sarcastic jokes at their ridiculous ideas and not caring of their prophecies. I know that Garrett's becoming "a true keeper" was not a magical process. He didn't change into anything because he always was the one he's supposed to become. It couldn't change the stubborn and indifferent mind of Garrett, so what exactly would then? There is no excuse why Garrett's brain would suddenly in the course of 60 seconds of the cutscene, switch "compassion for random strangers" in the stead of "self-serving arrogance, cynicity, and the preference of loneliness". The Garrett seen in the end of TDS didn't seem to be the Garrett I know.
If you were a master thief who has always been a hostile nature towards other people, selfish and arrogant, cynical and sarcastic, lonely and liking it, and if you'd saved the lives of thousands many times, getting only more and more hate and distrust towards him as a reward, would you help the random child on the street? It seems that everytime Garrett helps someone, or trusts someone, everyone ends up more miserable or hateful. Garrett has learned from his mistakes, he's not stupid. He doesn't have patience for other people. He always wanted to be left alone.

BTW You didn't answer the second part of the question, "Can you imagine T4 without her?"

Hamadriyad
2nd Jun 2009, 10:39
Yes I can imagine but better with her imo. What about just references to her. Are you against this?
And remember TMA. Garrett is not so selfish. He helped Viktoria and when Viktoria died he was really angry and he took her revenge.
And maybe the girl reminded something to Garrett; his early life, in the streets, hungry and tired.

kin
2nd Jun 2009, 10:46
Thief 4 should start with the girl dieing.

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 10:57
This is a neutral post with an honest question.
I've been ranting against the girl this whole time here, and I've heard the same excuse over and over, but I've never even considered really asking the ones who defend the girl this:

Why do you want the little girl to play a major role in T4, and can you imagine T4 without her?

These answers have been heard too many times, so please answer more specifically:
-Garrett takes the girl with him in the end of T3 with 99% certainty. We can't ignore important happenings in the past. (They didn't finish the conversation in the end cutscene. The whole ending hasn't been revealed.)
-That's called "Character development". Garrett's character becomes dull if his personality always stays the same, so he must develop compassion. (If you think this way, explain exactly how does Garrett become dull over time?)
-Garrett is old now. It's time to change the character. (No proof of that one whatsoever)
-Garrett is a keeper now. It's time to change the character. (Has being an acolyte or a keeper ever stopped Garrett from being a thief? Remember TDP?)

Please tell me why do so many people want the girl to be a major character in T4? I simply don't understand what's so special about her. I don't want to argue this time. I just want to know what's on your mind.

Dude,if I were a billionaire,Id give you all my inheretence just for this statement.

+999999999999999999999999999999999999!!!


Thief 4 should start with the girl dieing.
I so :lol: ed when I read that.But its true,rather her than Garrett.Garretts character reminds me of Riddik,so in that case,lets make the girl like that Jack chick.Let her die,just like in Riddik,and problem solved!:rolleyes:

Yes I can imagine but better with her imo. What about just references to her. Are you against this?
And remember TMA. Garrett is not so selfish. He helped Viktoria and when Viktoria died he was really angry and he took her revenge.
And maybe the girl reminded something to Garrett; his early life, in the streets, hungry and tired.

Yeah,maybe she did remid him of when he was a hungry kid.So he gave her money tought her how to pickpocket,and let her go....

and then....SHE DIED

ToMegaTherion
2nd Jun 2009, 11:02
Sorry guys, but these continuity attempts are amateurish and would be laughed at by everyone were they essayed. It would be nice to have serious and sensible ideas about how Garrett could continue as a protagonist without either taking the game back into Save The World territory, or invalidating the character progression of the hero in the first three games.

kin
2nd Jun 2009, 11:22
He does not have to save the world he can save himself now looking for that job that will help him "retire in style..."

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 14:41
Sorry guys, but these continuity attempts are amateurish and would be laughed at by everyone were they essayed. It would be nice to have serious and sensible ideas about how Garrett could continue as a protagonist without either taking the game back into Save The World territory, or invalidating the character progression of the hero in the first three games.

What parts... no, what words do you find laughable it our suggestions? No vague answers, really point them out. I've been trying to find out logical and continuity-wise relevant ways to not use the girl in T4* and to not make Garrett any more a keeper that he's been so far. :)

And nobody was talking about "saving the world" except me when I talked about what Garrett did in the past. I didn't talk about the overall plot of T4. Only the beginning.

* For example the fact that the converstion between Garrett and the Keeper in the beginning of T1 went all the way to Garrett's decision, but the conversation between Garrett and the little girl in the end of TDS was cut short, which was very generous of Ion Storm, since now there really is a choice between including the girl and not including her. They only need to show the rest of the conversation in the beginning of T4 and that's when we'll see.

GmanPro
2nd Jun 2009, 14:55
He does not have to save the world he can save himself now looking for that job that will help him "retire in style..."

Exactly. More games should be like this imo

ToMegaTherion
2nd Jun 2009, 15:03
The main problem is that you are too quick to throw away the core progression of Garrett over the three games, just because you want to have Garrett the Master Thief and nothing else. What you need to do is find a continuation that manages to keep Garrett as the protagonist without an obvious jump. The current approach seems to be to say "Garrett is the One True Keeper OH WAIT LOL no he isn't" which I can't take seriously. It has to be a logical progression from Deadly Shadows rather than "boo hoo, I wish Deadly Shadows hadn't happened, let's screw with its ending".

If there wasn't going to be a Thief 4, then the end of Deadly Shadows was entirely reasonable and there would be no reason to want to come up with a story allowing Garrett to be an ordinary thief again. So what we have seems to be a thought process that runs: Thief 4 -> Garrett must be the hero -> let's hack the story in order to get this. I don't think this is the right approach.

Hamadriyad
2nd Jun 2009, 15:10
The main problem is that you are too quick to throw away the core progression of Garrett over the three games, just because you want to have Garrett the Master Thief and nothing else. What you need to do is find a continuation that manages to keep Garrett as the protagonist without an obvious jump. The current approach seems to be to say "Garrett is the One True Keeper OH WAIT LOL no he isn't" which I can't take seriously. It has to be a logical progression from Deadly Shadows rather than "boo hoo, I wish Deadly Shadows hadn't happened, let's screw with its ending".

If there wasn't going to be a Thief 4, then the end of Deadly Shadows was entirely reasonable and there would be no reason to want to come up with a story allowing Garrett to be an ordinary thief again. So what we have seems to be a thought process that runs: Thief 4 -> Garrett must be the hero -> let's hack the story in order to get this. I don't think this is the right approach.

Absolutely.

GmanPro
2nd Jun 2009, 15:18
You don't have to hack the story at all. Just place T4 between T2 and T3. Done.

kin
2nd Jun 2009, 15:40
At the end luckily (for me at least) EM will chose the option that is more profitable for them. And this is probably to use Garrett again as the protagonist. It is simple marketing. The game can't fail in sales with Garrett if done right but with a new unknown character failure could wait round the corner. All the other stuff about story and continuity are nothing that concerns developers right now. Not to mention that they claimed the completion of the concept phase wich means the story has been writen. After that they also said that "the use of original voice actors is something they will consider very seriously". It seems things took their course already.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 15:41
The main problem is that you are too quick to throw away the core progression of Garrett over the three games, just because you want to have Garrett the Master Thief and nothing else. What you need to do is find a continuation that manages to keep Garrett as the protagonist without an obvious jump. The current approach seems to be to say "Garrett is the One True Keeper OH WAIT LOL no he isn't" which I can't take seriously. It has to be a logical progression from Deadly Shadows rather than "boo hoo, I wish Deadly Shadows hadn't happened, let's screw with its ending".


Exactly. (If I interpreted correctly what you said :scratch: ) there was no obvious jump. Some seem to think that the events of TDS radically changed Garrett, which leads to having a certaing absolute impression of the ending, without any flexibility. The end of TDS looks like it wasn't meant to be fully understood, so that the conclusion of TDS and the beginning of a possible sequel would remain a mystery. Those who can't connect the dots and don't see that, have formed a "probable" continuation of events and can't stand the idea of something else. There are some games that have a cliffhanger ending and the sequel starts from the exact same moment, but the events that start the sequel are completely unexpected. (for example HL2 EP1) This is the cause of an illusion of a certain "routine" formed in our subconcious by observing the progression of previous titles.

Hamadriyad
2nd Jun 2009, 16:25
You don't have to hack the story at all. Just place T4 between T2 and T3. Done.

Hopefully this won't happen.

Direlord
2nd Jun 2009, 16:29
Can T4 be without the girl in any significant form of course. Garrett could have turned her over to the keepers for training and she will become a simple scribe nothing more or she could have turned him down or whatever.

What i thought happened with the final glyph was it basically nullified all glyphs that were ever created. why the keepers building was seen and their books were blank. The balance was created between chaos and order as well as no longer needing a group like the keepers. Garrett being the one true keeper i don't think will give him any powers whats so ever.

What I thought might happen is the keepers will try to rebuild possible remake the glyphs if it's even possible after the master glyph but Garrett will have none of it. They will beg and plead him to lead them into the future but Garrett will be like his old self and not care about their problems it gets in the way of his money.

Having Garrett just steal things could work but doesn't make for an interesting story for the entire game. I think the girl is mentioned quite a bit as some people see Garretts story is completed and done its time to move on so to speak.

Personally I want Garrett back but if they make a new character to take over that makes sense as long as it has the good old Thief gameplay i'll be happy. I would be mad though if Garrett does not make an appearance or so though.

esme
2nd Jun 2009, 16:38
You don't have to hack the story at all. Just place T4 between T2 and T3. Done.yeah we could find out what happened to all the burricks and frogbeasts

my pet theory is Garrett broke into the rope arrow factory and left the door open, the burricks and frogbeasts liked the smell of the place and followed him in (yes all of them) then they exploded from indigestion after eating all the rope arrows, wiping the factory off the face of the planet, garrett barely escaped and was so traumatized by this inadvertent act of genocide he forgot how to swim

GmanPro
2nd Jun 2009, 16:46
Hopefully this won't happen.

Why not?

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 16:58
Can T4 be without the girl in any significant form of course. Garrett could have turned her over to the keepers for training and she will become a simple scribe nothing more or she could have turned him down or whatever.

What i thought happened with the final glyph was it basically nullified all glyphs that were ever created. why the keepers building was seen and their books were blank. The balance was created between chaos and order as well as no longer needing a group like the keepers. Garrett being the one true keeper i don't think will give him any powers whats so ever.

What I thought might happen is the keepers will try to rebuild possible remake the glyphs if it's even possible after the master glyph but Garrett will have none of it. They will beg and plead him to lead them into the future but Garrett will be like his old self and not care about their problems it gets in the way of his money.

Having Garrett just steal things could work but doesn't make for an interesting story for the entire game. I think the girl is mentioned quite a bit as some people see Garretts story is completed and done its time to move on so to speak.

Personally I want Garrett back but if they make a new character to take over that makes sense as long as it has the good old Thief gameplay i'll be happy. I would be mad though if Garrett does not make an appearance or so though.

Pretty much all of my points there. :) Except that Garrett should give the girl the same choice that he was given back then.

Hamadriyad
2nd Jun 2009, 18:26
Why not?

If Thief IV will be a prequel what about Thief V?
One day they'll make a sequel, they have to. So,forget about prequel and let's make a sequel now.
And prequels are cheap ways to contınue.

GmanPro
3rd Jun 2009, 07:12
You said it yourself. They'll make a sequel eventually. So why not have a good prequel in between? What harm does that do? None.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 09:21
You said it yourself. They'll make a sequel eventually. So why not have a good prequel in between? What harm does that do? None.

I don't want a prequel. I'm tired of the keepers, and since they're not keepers in T4 anymore, I prefer a sequel.

HellKittyDan
3rd Jun 2009, 10:56
I don't think it's difficult to have a sequel that features Garrett as the player character, but he shouldn't go back to being a man who steals to pay the rent. Over the course of three games Garrett tried to stay out of everything but by the end of it all he finally accepts his role, it doesn't make sense to just ignore all that.

Thievery should be something he does because he enjoys the challenge, not because he needs to. He can play his role as keeper by interfering behind the scenes, allowing for the same type of mission and gameplay from the previous games.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 11:48
I don't think it's difficult to have a sequel that features Garrett as the player character, but he shouldn't go back to being a man who steals to pay the rent. Over the course of three games Garrett tried to stay out of everything but by the end of it all he finally accepts his role, it doesn't make sense to just ignore all that.

Thievery should be something he does because he enjoys the challenge, not because he needs to. He can play his role as keeper by interfering behind the scenes, allowing for the same type of mission and gameplay from the previous games.

Please beware. A misguided soul. All should now by now that Garrett didn't become anything in the end of TDS. Garrett has always been that kind of keeper that you thought he suddenly became. He didn't accept it out of the blue, and he's not going to turn anymore keeperish than he was in "The Keepers' Training".

Also, making Garrett something more than merely a thief that's always in the wrong place at the right time, takes a considerable amount of his anti-hero character away. His character looses it's best feature, the fact that he really is a true criminal, an enemy of the people. Hated and despised. Garrett shouldn't have an automatic "become-a-hero" card like a super keeper status. He accidentally stumbles on sinister conspiracies and ends up being the one solving the mysteries and he doesn't get credit for it, but doesn't care.

esme
3rd Jun 2009, 12:10
..."They've all gone... What will become of the city without us?" .I've just had a look at the final cutscene again, this is referring to the fact that the glyphs have disappeared in all the books in the keeper libraries, all the books are displayed in the scene with blank pages with the possible exception of one that looks like it is being read but the person could just be turning pages looking forlornly for text, so there are no prophecies and the keepers feel they have no further function and wonder what will happen to the city without the prophecies and the keepers to guide them

so basically anything can happen and no one can predict it because it isn't written in ancient prophecies any more

this does not prevent a new seer or prophet arising and making predictions of their own, or even a kind of meta prophet who writes things and they happen, not because they were foreseen but because they were written - a fairly popular theme in scifi/fantasy


Then there's the child that it is implied that Garrett takes in in the very endyou could take it that way, with him repeating the lines said to himself when he was a child, or you could take it that he hands the girl over to the keepers for training as she shows promise

I mean ok he has a heart but remember he's a sardonic and sarcastic b*gger who steals other peoples property for a living

Garrett is pretty cool but would he want the responsibility of bringing up a child, he only gets drawn into these epic quests because he has no real choice at the end of the day, usually if he doesn't save the world he's going to die so it's enlightened self interest at best, I can't see him as a parent figure personally

as for Garrett being a keeper now, well as all the prophecies have gone the keepers are scratching around for a new role so what role is he describing by calling himself a keeper ? he could be happy with the role of keeper because now he is free to choose his path as it's no longer carved in stone, written in some dusty book by some long dead prophet, he's got options so yes he's a keeper but that doesn't mean he has to live with the other keepers and follow their rules, he can still be a thief

and regarding the idea of not taking the game back into "saving the world" territory, pretty much any epic video game with any scope has the underlying theme of the protagonist saving some large and important thing from some kind of huge threat, so if not the world what else ? all the preceding games have started from "steal X - it's pretty/it's fun/you need the money" and gone on to "oh *****, if I don't use my skills to steal X I'll die in a horrible fashion and incidentally the world will end as well" so I think saving the world may be a given

--- EDIT ---

and who says the little girl is a little girl ? she could be some sort of lure to pull Garrett into yet another quest, Gamall used to hide as a little girl, I'm very suspicious of things that look sweet and innocent in video games like Thief

Hamadriyad
3rd Jun 2009, 13:39
I don't think it's difficult to have a sequel that features Garrett as the player character, but he shouldn't go back to being a man who steals to pay the rent. Over the course of three games Garrett tried to stay out of everything but by the end of it all he finally accepts his role, it doesn't make sense to just ignore all that.

Thievery should be something he does because he enjoys the challenge, not because he needs to. He can play his role as keeper by interfering behind the scenes, allowing for the same type of mission and gameplay from the previous games.

Agreed.

HellKittyDan
3rd Jun 2009, 14:25
Garrett has always been that kind of keeper that you thought he suddenly became.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I never said I thought he "suddenly became" anything. He accepted what he is when previously he has always been tried to ignore it, to run from it.

At the end of 1 has was done, he wanted nothing more to do with the Keepers and their crazy conspiracies.
At the end of 2 he was willing to listen to the Keepers, though he still looked at them with contempt.
At the end of 3 he finally accepted his role.


he's not going to turn anymore keeperish than he was in "The Keepers' Training".

And just what exactly does "keeperish" mean? Accepting what he is doesn't mean he's suddenly going to change dramatically. He has always shown disdain for the keepers and how they operate, so there is really no reason to think he's suddenly going to act like them. Accepting his role doesn't mean performing that role in the same way as those that came before him. He has already played this role in bringing down the Trickster, Karras and Gamall, there is now reason to think he's going to change the way he acts now, given that it's proven so successful.


Also, making Garrett something more than merely a thief that's always in the wrong place at the right time, takes a considerable amount of his anti-hero character away.

Garrett has never been "merely" a thief. The games have never just been about simply thievery. There is always some plot Garrett must stop by bringing down the villain.


the fact that he really is a true criminal, an enemy of the people.

Garrett is not an enemy of the people. Without the people who is he going to steal from?


Garrett shouldn't have an automatic "become-a-hero" card like a super keeper status.

The problem is you're projecting your own ideas of what it means to be the one true keeper. Since when have the keepers been seen as heroes? They've always worked behind the scenes. Being "the one true keeper" doesn't have anything to do with silly stuff like getting superpowers or getting some special status. Nothing much needs to change. Garrett has always been the the "one true keeper", in typical computer game form he's the only one who can save the day, the hero of the show. Just as the prophecies said. In the past he has always been reluctant to play this role, the end of DS suggests he is now at peace with it.


He accidentally stumbles on sinister conspiracies and ends up being the one solving the mysteries and he doesn't get credit for it, but doesn't care.

This just shows a poor understanding of the characters and the game world. Garrett never accidentally stumbled on anything, he has always been manipulated, by both the Keepers and his enemies. With all the prophecies and what not it's the exact opposite of accidentally stumbling into something.

The bit about saving the day without getting credit and not caring about that is a pretty common hero trait amongst comic book superheros and secret military types.

esme
3rd Jun 2009, 14:37
one thought, the invocation of the final glyph has wiped out all the other glyphs, what if it removed all written language ?

sort of destroyed mans capability to read and write, so even if marks are subsequently made with pen and ink no one except the originator can make sense of them and the originator only knows because they remember what it means not because they can read it

coins would become mere disks of metal, the banking system would collapse because there would be no records of who owns what, the rich and the poor would be equals scrabbling over scraps of food, the city's gutters and drains would run with blood, all magical seals would lose their power releasing the undead and the magical into the world

and of course Garrett would have to save the day before he gets eaten by something

hmmm might make a decent FM that

the remaining keepers try to enlist Garrett, Garrett's knackered after Gamall, wants nothing to do with it and decides to go on holiday, tries to rob a bank to fund a sea voyage but can't read the combination to the safe and so he fails, he tries to stow away but gets booted off ship because the crew mutiny over lack of pay, he gives in and goes to see the keepers who are trying to hold back the creatures from other realms using the magic they remember but cannot pass to others because it is unpronouncable and has to be written, so Garrett has to sort this out before the keepers collapse with exhaustion, he needs the eye and it's returned to the haunted cathedral so he goes to get it, he takes the eye to the museum and installs it on the cyclops statue which comes to life and invokes the first glyph restoring written language before opening a portal to some other realm and vanishing, Garrett then goes back to the bank and gets the money

could even make a halfway decent FM campaign

InGroove2
3rd Jun 2009, 15:08
i just can't see anyway they'd place a story between two sequels... a prequel to DS? why? that story seems like it would be pretty arbitrary since it wasn't already told. not to mention the game has been away for awhile, and from a marketing standpoint, how are you gonna set a game in that spcific world and have it sell to masses? they'd all need a refresher course on what exactly has gone on in that world... it's not going to happen IMO.

i think there' are 100000 ways to deal with the girl and keep garret. though i do agree that the idea of maintaining garret as this loner who doesn't grow or develop is a terribly boring idea... the MOD community has come up with a gillion brilliant levels for us to TDP or TMA-our-asses-off endlessly...

i would love to see garret develop as a character... personally.

the only idea i've had so far is to basicaly do what the dark knioght did and make the game about garret as villian... where the city gets to a point where garret needs to change himself or his persona in oprder to maintain order in the city... something like that.... like a big mission where garret returns stuff... where he sees that he's not fit to be "the guy who saved the world"... something like that...

and thief 5, maybe garret returns to full shadow,and we get a calm, simple game of "thwart the evil sherrif by framing people and stealing stuff"

for the girl... eh, she can just be some sort of aquaintence, another thief... there were already other thiefs around the city... she can be one, maybe she ends up being his enemy....

HellKittyDan
3rd Jun 2009, 15:08
what role is he describing by calling himself a keeper ?

I think that's a good question.

In my mind he has always been a keeper. Sure, he parted ways with them long ago to do his own thing, but he never really stopped playing his role as keeper. On three separate occasions he has gone down the path that both the keepers and the city, wanted, and needed, him to go down. Garrett has always been the one true keeper, because he's the one who actually gets the job done. Identifying himself as a keeper means nothing more than coming to terms with the role he plays.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 15:58
i would love to see garret develop as a character... personally.

the only idea i've had so far is to basicaly do what the dark knioght did and make the game about garret as villian... where the city gets to a point where garret needs to change himself or his persona in oprder to maintain order in the city... something like that.... like a big mission where garret returns stuff... where he sees that he's not fit to be "the guy who saved the world"... something like that...


I hope I interpreted that incorrectly, because it gave me the lulz. :lmao:
I don't believe that it's what you tried to say but it looks as if you thought the story would go like:

Garrett is a thief in T1, T2, and TDS ==> He takes stuff from people
Garrett becomes something else in T4 ==> He returns stuff to people
That logic was hilarious! :D

InGroove2
3rd Jun 2009, 16:06
I hope I interpreted that incorrectly, because it gave me the lulz. :lmao:
I don't believe that it's what you tried to say but it looks as if you thought the story would go like:

Garrett is a thief in T1, T2, and TDS ==> He takes stuff from people
Garrett becomes something else in T4 ==> He returns stuff to people
That logic was hilarious! :D

does it? really? i mean he, by way of the glyph, return the paw and the chalice? no? along those lines. don't be so single minded... i'm not talking about an entire game where you give stuff to people, but much in the way he helped the pegans and hammers, he might use his stealth to help people as a way of making things better. it would be seriously boring if garret was unchangeable... cause it's obvious that he cares about more than himself thus far. a reluctant hero... selfish, but a hero still. or steal from an enemy to return to an innocent, that kind of thing.

sheesh. OPEN YOUR MIND!!

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 16:14
does it? really? i mean he, by way of the glyph, return the paw and the chalice? no? along those lines. don't be so single minded... i'm not talking about an entire game where you give stuff to people, but much in the way he helped the pegans and hammers, he might use his stealth to help people as a way of making things better. it would be seriously boring if garret was unchangeable... cause it's obvious that he cares about more than himself thus far. a reluctant hero... selfish, but a hero still. or steal from an enemy to return to an innocent, that kind of thing.

sheesh. OPEN YOUR MIND!!

But really, if you steal a nice-looking trinket from someone who has the money to make a thousand more like it, the last thing you want to do as Garrett is to return it to the previous owner. Garrett steals from people who don't need so much, and sells the loot to give money to someone who needs it. That's himself. Because he's poor. Garrett doesn't afford to live, just barely survive. He wouldn't last long in the helping business, just like nobody else in this unforgiving City.

sheesh. WOULD YOU?!

InGroove2
3rd Jun 2009, 16:33
But really, if you steal a nice-looking trinket from someone who has the money to make a thousand more like it, the last thing you want to do as Garrett is to return it to the previous owner. Garrett steals from people who don't need so much, and sells the loot to give money to someone who needs it. That's himself. Because he's poor. Garrett doesn't afford to live, just barely survive. He wouldn't last long in the helping business, just like nobody else in this unforgiving City.

sheesh. WOULD YOU?!

is that the way it is? maybe you've constructed this character in your own narrow perception... much like you accused people of doing before.

i'm not really sure your description is necessarily true. you can pooh on my idea all you want... but that view of the characer is weak and uninteresting.... nhow can a dude who's thrice saved the city continue being a petty thief, especially when some little girl can see him... something's gotta give. that's really all i'm sayin.

not sure what your definition of an open mind is, but clearly our def. disagree, which is cool... so maybe i wont just come back and say ":nah nah nah YOUR mind is closed"..

so fair enough. i'm just sayin. something's gotta give. the end of DS makes him reluctantly responsible for a balancing of things.... DS is the one where his deed has changed the city... the other two just saved it, no one had to know it was garret.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 16:50
is that the way it is? maybe you've constructed this character in your own narrow perception... much like you accused people of doing before.

i'm not really sure your description is necessarily true. you can pooh on my idea all you want... but that view of the characer is weak and uninteresting.... nhow can a dude who's thrice saved the city continue being a petty thief, especially when some little girl can see him... something's gotta give. that's really all i'm sayin.

not sure what your definition of an open mind is, but clearly our def. disagree, which is cool... so maybe i wont just come back and say ":nah nah nah YOUR mind is closed"..

so fair enough. i'm just sayin. something's gotta give. the end of DS makes him reluctantly responsible for a balancing of things.... DS is the one where his deed has changed the city... the other two just saved it, no one had to know it was garret.

Your perception of Garrett is more narrow than mine, but in a good way. My perception is trying to find little details that I try to interpret to create strawmans that I can use to push through the obvious and get far-fetched interpretations that fit what I want Garrett to be, a character who's stubborness is so strong that the end of the world can't change his personality or his desires.

I just want to believe that a character as strong as Garrett can't really change in the way you describe. People don't usually become unsociable, selfish and arrogant, they're always that way. It's a psychological "disorder" and without therapy it is very hard for a mind like that to change. Imagine if Richard Rid**** started sending apology letters to everyone he's killed. Garrett's problem with people is deeper than just a preferance of loneliness.

InGroove2
3rd Jun 2009, 16:55
Your perception of Garrett is more narrow than mine, but in a good way. My perception is trying to find little details that I try to interpret to create strawmans that I can use to push through the obvious and get far-fetched interpretations that fit what I want Garrett to be, a character who's stubborness is so strong that the end of the world can't change his personality or his desires.

I just want to believe that a character as strong as Garrett can't really change in the way you describe. People don't usually become unsociable, selfish and arrogant, they're always that way. It's a psychological "disorder" and without therapy it is very hard for a mind like that to change. Imagine if Richard Rid**** started sending apology letters to everyone he's killed. Garrett's problem with people is deeper than just a preferance of loneliness.

weird. deescribe why you think my view is more narrow?

i mean, if for no other reason than a discussion about how screwed up and vague forum talk can be.

what about garret indicates to you that he doesn't like people? i mean, if he truly didn't care he would have never have helped the keepers or anyone...he always does things reluctantly, because he doesn't hate people or humanity, he just prefers to be alone and in the shadows, but not at the expense of people or the city. he SAVES the city. he HELPS basso in the first mission of the 2nd game... he understands BASSO and his humanity...

which begs the questyion, do ou think he would have helped basso if there wasn't a chance for such loot?

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 17:09
weird. deescribe why you think my view is more narrow?

i mean, if for no other reason than a discussion about how screwed up and vague forum talk can be.

what about garret indicates to you that he doesn't like people? i mean, if he truly didn't care he would have never have helped the keepers or anyone...he always does things reluctantly, because he doesn't hate people or humanity, he just prefers to be alone and in the shadows, but not at the expense of people or the city. he SAVES the city. he HELPS basso in the first mission of the 2nd game... he understands BASSO and his humanity...

which begs the questyion, do ou think he would have helped basso if there wasn't a chance for such loot?

Your view is more "narrow" because you see only what's presented to you directly, which is probably good in this case, because I know that most likely I'm just lying to myself and digging around for misinterpretable things like a conspiracy theorist. The only problem is, that how do I know that everyone else is not doing that as well?

And no, I don't think that Garrett would have helped Basso. "I've always acquaited feelings with getting caught. They both get in the way of my money." and "I make it a policy never to take a job so sentimental, but the Rumford manor could be a lucrative opportunity for a man like me. It would also mean that Basso would owe me a favor, and in this line of work you can never have too many of those." are direct quotes from "Running interference".

InGroove2
3rd Jun 2009, 17:13
Your view is more "narrow" because you see only what's presented to you directly, which is probably good in this case, because I know that most likely I'm just lying to myself and digging around for misinterpretable things like a conspiracy theorist. The only problem is, that how do I know that everyone else is not doing that as well?

And no, I don't think that Garrett would have helped Basso. "I've always acquaited feelings with getting caught. They both get in the way of my money." and "I make it a policy never to take a job so sentimental, but the Rumford manor could be a lucrative opportunity for a man like me. It would also mean that Basso would owe me a favor, and in this line of work you can never have too many of those." are direct quotes from "Running interference".

also weird, cause in my view. taking things at face value and expounding from there is a more open minded view... goes to show. language is very very problematic.

ok, so you're right about that quote. but i stand by that he has humanity.


p.s. i dig conspiracy theories.

Hamadriyad
3rd Jun 2009, 17:41
Of course he has.He helped Viktoria, he took her revenge after she died.(remember the voice " Karras" it was really angry)Besides there wasn't a chance for loot.

InGroove2
3rd Jun 2009, 17:45
Of course he has.He helped Viktoria, he took her revenge after she died.(remember the voice " Karras" it was really angry)Besides there wasn't a chance for loot.

score one for me! thx

Hamadriyad
3rd Jun 2009, 17:50
score one for me! thx

You are welcome;) .We share same thoughts.

kaekaelyn
3rd Jun 2009, 21:17
As I pointed out in another thread, Garrett's probably not receiving much of a "One True Keeper" salary. The Keeper Compound and all its riches is probably sealed off forever with the destruction of all the glyphs. How's the guy going to survive? How's he going to put food on the table? Where is he going to live, and how is he going to pay the rent? Something tells me he's not going to open up a small restaurant in Stonemarket.

Garrett's going to continue to do what Garrett does best. It's just common sense.

InGroove2
3rd Jun 2009, 21:45
As I pointed out in another thread, Garrett's probably not receiving much of a "One True Keeper" salary. The Keeper Compound and all its riches is probably sealed off forever with the destruction of all the glyphs. How's the guy going to survive? How's he going to put food on the table? Where is he going to live, and how is he going to pay the rent? Something tells me he's not going to open up a small restaurant in Stonemarket.

Garrett's going to continue to do what Garrett does best. It's just common sense.

oh, common sense, huh? How subtely condescending! :wave: Not to mention the slippery slope you go down when you talk about salary... i mean, how did the keepers live? did they make money? you're begging too many questions here that might break the suspension of disbelief


besides.
Garret WILL have to keep stealing, sure, but what will his reputation be?

and what responsibility will he have, if any?

if he DOES have some responsibility, then how does his character (snide, self-serving, problem with authority and nobility yet still humane and concerned with the well being of the city) play into that responsibilty?

and even if the girl isn't involved directly... it cannot be ignored that at least SHE could see him. what is garret's world like as a keeper who does not wish to be seen, but IS seen by this girl?

and what state is the city in?

who out there is pissed about what garret did? do they know it is garret, and if so, how?

these are the questions that come to mind when i think abotu what will happen.
so iguess, ignoring any specifics... whatever my ideas are, they will only attempt to deal with this info...

MasterTaffer
3rd Jun 2009, 22:31
I've stated what the ending of Thief Deadly Shadows has meant to me, but I'll reiterate it here, since it's more apropos int his thread.

When the Ancient Keepers first made founded the Order of the Key (Keepers), they predicted a day that the Keepers would lose their balance and start using the glyphs for a corrupt purpose. As a contingency plan, they created the Final Glyph. The purpose of this glyph was to erase all glyph magic from the City, cutting off the Keepers from what gives them their power. With the Keepers powerless, they will be forced to disband and the City will be left to balance itself.

To create the glyph, they manipulated the construction of the City so that the streets would form the glyphs themselves. To activate its power, they created landmarks in the City with a holder for objects of great power. The objects they chose were the Sentients, ancient items from a history unknown.

Artemus learned of this glyph, and when he realized that the Keepers had lost their way, thinking they were controlling the glyphs instead of following them, he set out to discover the Final Glyph to prevent a future catastrophy. When Gamall exposed herself, the need to activate the FInal Glyph became more urgent, for it was the only way to stop the unstoppable, glyph powered juggernaught she had become over the centuries she has been alive.

When Garrett activated the Final Glyph at the end of Deadly Shadows, he was marked as the One True Keeper for restoring true balance to the City. The Keepers power was erased from the City, leaving them completely powerless. It's for this reason that the Keeper most likely will not appear in Thief 4. Gamall also was stripped of her beastly power, leaving her to feel the wrath of age rapidly catching up to her. As for Garrett's marking as the One True Keeper, I believe it was more of a branding than a duty bestowed on him for activating the glyph.

I don't think the little girl should be the protagonist in Thief 4. However, Garrett developing compassion is not something that should be ignored, as it help develop his charecter somewhat. He can still be a cynical and jaded, but at the same time care about someone else. Especially someone in such a similar situation as he was when he was young. She may be a side charecter Garrett now cares for, but I sincerely doubt he would wish a life of crime on her.

Garrett developing feelings and compassion for another is not a new concept to Thief, as he developed strong feeling snad respect for Viktoria during Thief 2. It's not outside his charecter at all to care for another, it's just a rarity.

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 00:22
Keepers are obviously communists!

(And sorry, I didn't mean to be condescending.)

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 00:26
:(

http://www.paranoidloveconspiracy.com/futility.jpg

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 00:38
Hahaha!

But seriously, commie Keepers. They probably have a bunch of ancient wealth or something and share it as a community. Anyway, I've just realized that all my arguments are pretty useless, and they're just wishful thinking anyway. I could see Garrett being the main character in a seamless sequel, but there's probably no way for me to "prove" that's the best path. It's more of an emotional attachment than anything else. It's probably best to ignore my rants rather than trying to come up with a good response, because they're pretty meaningless.

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 01:03
I've stated what the ending of Thief Deadly Shadows has meant to me, but I'll reiterate it here, since it's more apropos int his thread.

When the Ancient Keepers first made founded the Order of the Key (Keepers), they predicted a day that the Keepers would lose their balance and start using the glyphs for a corrupt purpose. As a contingency plan, they created the Final Glyph. The purpose of this glyph was to erase all glyph magic from the City, cutting off the Keepers from what gives them their power. With the Keepers powerless, they will be forced to disband and the City will be left to balance itself.

To create the glyph, they manipulated the construction of the City so that the streets would form the glyphs themselves. To activate its power, they created landmarks in the City with a holder for objects of great power. The objects they chose were the Sentients, ancient items from a history unknown.

Artemus learned of this glyph, and when he realized that the Keepers had lost their way, thinking they were controlling the glyphs instead of following them, he set out to discover the Final Glyph to prevent a future catastrophy. When Gamall exposed herself, the need to activate the FInal Glyph became more urgent, for it was the only way to stop the unstoppable, glyph powered juggernaught she had become over the centuries she has been alive.

When Garrett activated the Final Glyph at the end of Deadly Shadows, he was marked as the One True Keeper for restoring true balance to the City. The Keepers power was erased from the City, leaving them completely powerless. It's for this reason that the Keeper most likely will not appear in Thief 4. Gamall also was stripped of her beastly power, leaving her to feel the wrath of age rapidly catching up to her. As for Garrett's marking as the One True Keeper, I believe it was more of a branding than a duty bestowed on him for activating the glyph.

I don't think the little girl should be the protagonist in Thief 4. However, Garrett developing compassion is not something that should be ignored, as it help develop his charecter somewhat. He can still be a cynical and jaded, but at the same time care about someone else. Especially someone in such a similar situation as he was when he was young. She may be a side charecter Garrett now cares for, but I sincerely doubt he would wish a life of crime on her.

Garrett developing feelings and compassion for another is not a new concept to Thief, as he developed strong feeling snad respect for Viktoria during Thief 2. It's not outside his charecter at all to care for another, it's just a rarity.

I could run with this no problems.

Terr
4th Jun 2009, 01:51
http://www.paranoidloveconspiracy.com/futility.jpg

Actually, I do have to quibble with that on logical grounds. (And yes, I did read The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark ;))

We use the burden of proof and the concept of "proving a negative" more as a convention for adversarial arguing than as a quasi-mathematical law. In the image, saying X is the "logical default" really just means "conventional default" rather than "mathematically provable or optimal default".

The lack of evidence for the Invisible Incorporeal Dragon In My Garage (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm) is still not in-and-of-itself an indicator the Dragon does not exist. The real cause for saying: "It's not there" is Bayesian, and on some level has to incorporate our expectations of what is there.

Anyway, offtopic, but I highly recommend Chances Are: Adventures in Probability (http://www.amazon.com/Chances-Are-Probability-Michael-Kaplan/dp/0143038346) for more on this.

Platinumoxicity
4th Jun 2009, 10:15
Garrett developing feelings and compassion for another is not a new concept to Thief, as he developed strong feeling snad respect for Viktoria during Thief 2. It's not outside his charecter at all to care for another, it's just a rarity.

Yeah, I also think that Garrett's interest in Viktoria was caused by the fact that Viktoria was a rare, strong and strange personality, even stranger than Garrett was. Garrett needs a lot more than just a "fine booty" to be impressed. Viktoria was special.

Hamadriyad
4th Jun 2009, 13:09
Yeah, I also think that Garrett's interest in Viktoria was caused by the fact that Viktoria was a rare, strong and strange personality, even stranger than Garrett was. Garrett needs a lot more than just a "fine booty" to be impressed. Viktoria was special.

So, Garrett helped Viktoria because she was special.Come on! Yes, she was special but that was not the only reason.He helped because he knew Viktoria was right, Mechanists were enemy of the city.Because he is not so selfish!

clock12345
4th Jun 2009, 15:21
listen to this at thief 4 the girl will be a keeper that helps garret on finding info and stuff she gives him itmes like flashbombs,speed potions,invisiblity potions. and garret finds out that the finall glyphs door wasent locked down it realeses all the evil forces from thief 1 2 and 3 so garret still remain the main character so Platinumoxicity you are wrong.

Platinumoxicity
4th Jun 2009, 16:35
listen to this at thief 4 the girl will be a keeper that helps garret on finding info and stuff she gives him itmes like flashbombs,speed potions,invisiblity potions. and garret finds out that the finall glyphs door wasent locked down it realeses all the evil forces from thief 1 2 and 3 so garret still remain the main character so Platinumoxicity you are wrong.

OMG you're from the future! Could you go back and fetch us some pics of T4? That would be nice! But no spoilers plz. It's still a few years before the rest of us can play the game. :hmm:

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 16:47
OMG you're from the future! Could you go back and fetch us some pics of T4? That would be nice! But no spoilers plz. It's still a few years before the rest of us can play the game. :hmm:

Screw that, ask him for the lottery numbers...

InGroove2
4th Jun 2009, 18:42
Keepers are obviously communists!

(And sorry, I didn't mean to be condescending.)

no prob.... i tried to use that smiley to indicate a lightness.

but i LOVE the idea of the keeps being commies.

InGroove2
4th Jun 2009, 18:47
listen to this at thief 4 the girl will be a keeper that helps garret on finding info and stuff she gives him itmes like flashbombs,speed potions,invisiblity potions. and garret finds out that the finall glyphs door wasent locked down it realeses all the evil forces from thief 1 2 and 3 so garret still remain the main character so Platinumoxicity you are wrong.
also, what kind of post is this? i mean, just flat out saying someone is wrong based on nothing? you should be banned.... kramer-style.

but Platinumoxicity... whew, you should be SCARED! this guy/gal has totally got your number!! :eek:

Platinumoxicity
4th Jun 2009, 21:20
also, what kind of post is this? i mean, just flat out saying someone is wrong based on nothing? you should be banned.... kramer-style.

but Platinumoxicity... whew, you should be SCARED! this guy/gal has totally got your number!! :eek:

He's got me by the bawls there.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 21:32
He's got me by the bawls there.

Yeah, he took your **** apart!

ToMegaTherion
4th Jun 2009, 21:59
You should feel honoured that your name was deemed worthy of a capital letter, and indeed correct spelling, unlike Garrett.

Platinumoxicity
4th Jun 2009, 23:09
Yeah, BTW is "garret" a real word? Reminds me of "carrot"

"Carrott -The worlds greatest root vegetable - Rarely seen and never farmed"

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 23:11
I believe that "garret" is a real word. I think it's a tower or something. Let me webster it. (Pretty sure that's not a real word) ;)

Yep, it's a watchtower, but that's apparently a little more obscure than its usual definition, an attic. So now we know what clock was talking about! She hoards all those flashbombs in the attic. What a strange game.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 23:15
A garret is a space found directly below the pitched roof of a house or other building. It's also known as an attic.

Platinumoxicity
4th Jun 2009, 23:23
A garret is a space found directly below the pitched roof of a house or other building. It's also known as an attic.

Did I spell the name of the new delicious protagonist right then? Carrott, with 2 T's in orange?

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 23:26
Did I spell the name of the new delicious protagonist right then? Carrott, with 2 T's in orange?

Spell checker says SUCCESS! :D

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 23:27
Yeah! Carrott is the perfect choice for a main character. He hasn't "come full circle" like Garrett. He's new. He's fresh. Fresh produce. Mmm.

Terr
5th Jun 2009, 00:19
Well, we need to distinguish him a tiny bit from Garrett for a truly fresh storyline. Maybe instead of a hardscrabble orphan, he could be of noble blood, and he could still be an orphan but adopted by folks who are very down-to-earth. Maybe make him a little bit more honorable and well-intentioned. And he could work as a policeman (what a twist!) trying to make good in a crazy city of crazy people.

We can call him Captain Carrott.

kaekaelyn
5th Jun 2009, 00:25
Brilliant! Hey, I have an idea. How about at the beginning of Thief 4, we see the exact same cutscene with Garrett and the girl from the end of TDS, except we replace the girl with a big fat orange taproot? Then we can continue on from there with Captain Carrott's Keeper training. I'm sure people won't notice the difference.

MasterTaffer
5th Jun 2009, 01:04
Spoiler warning, man! Jeez...

Pyronox
5th Jun 2009, 01:19
Ok, everyone be quiet, here's how it will go: The tutorial will be played as the girl to teach the player how to play the game without n00bifying Garrett. Insults galore during failings @ tutorial. Then the tutorial ends with you horribly failing (unwittingly, it was planned) and dying. Garrett yells "VENGEANNNNNCEEE!!" and then starts a quest for said vengeance, but remembers that he is everyone's favorite douchebag and therefore there is no point in risking his life for no reason. He then spots a bunch of shinies and procedes to rob them. So then he goes on robbing folks yadda yadda yadda, eventually stumbles uncannily upon the dude that killed the girl, kills him in turn and realized he uncovered something way more than just a dude that likes to maim little girls. Cue plot twist sound file, insert sprawly levels and end "gracefully" with a cliffhanger.

Tada?

kaekaelyn
5th Jun 2009, 01:24
Uh, somebody's obviously not been reading the thread. Look, the main character's going to be Captain Carrott. Stop whining. Let go of the old, embrace the new.

I'm not going to tolerate some stupid contrived plot twist just to keep old-ass Garrett as the protagonist. Captain Carrott is the wave of the future.

Pyronox
5th Jun 2009, 01:30
Carrots... suck.

MasterTaffer
5th Jun 2009, 06:26
Zomg, yew arent a realz f4n!

Terr
5th Jun 2009, 06:38
I look forward to the creation of Hammerite Battle Bread.

"IN THE BAKER'S NAME I SMITE THEE!"

Flashart
5th Jun 2009, 11:56
^^^
(Mr P I presume....)

Here's my view. I think the end of TDS was made so it could be read as an end of the series, but there was just enough of a hint to carry on if you wanted. (I'll not make the "blank page" comparison but....)
However, Garrett would pass on his skills, the way that he learned. He may not do it for gain but just to help someone to survive the streets, or with a view of having someone look after him in his "old age".. The "revealing" of the Keepers creates a theoretical power vacuum.
Add in the existing factions and some new ones and there's more than enough to create a decent, coherent narrative.
The Girl doesn't have to be a "main" character but equally could be, she could be earmarked for Garrett's replacement in, maybe T6 (T5 being the transition, and when that gets shouted down T7 sees Garrett's triumphant return) I don't mind either option, as long as it makes sense.
My best guess is that as the "One true keeper" I think someone will set out to "tip the balance" in their favour.

citywolfdreams
10th Jun 2009, 02:40
This is a neutral post with an honest question.
I've been ranting against the girl this whole time here, and I've heard the same excuse over and over, but I've never even considered really asking the ones who defend the girl this:

Why do you want the little girl to play a major role in T4, and can you imagine T4 without her?

These answers have been heard too many times, so please answer more specifically:
-Garrett takes the girl with him in the end of T3 with 99% certainty. We can't ignore important happenings in the past. (They didn't finish the conversation in the end cutscene. The whole ending hasn't been revealed.)
-That's called "Character development". Garrett's character becomes dull if his personality always stays the same, so he must develop compassion. (If you think this way, explain exactly how does Garrett become dull over time?)
-Garrett is old now. It's time to change the character. (No proof of that one whatsoever)
-Garrett is a keeper now. It's time to change the character. (Has being an acolyte or a keeper ever stopped Garrett from being a thief? Remember TDP?)

Please tell me why do so many people want the girl to be a major character in T4? I simply don't understand what's so special about her. I don't want to argue this time. I just want to know what's on your mind.

I feel like these conversations tend to degenerate into extremism, and the moderate voices of reason need to be heard. On the one hand, you have person #1 being all like "Garrett takes the girl and makes her a true keeper and then she's the hero of the next story because Garrett has superpowers because he's the One True Keeper, oh boy, and he goes into other dimensions to rob them," and basically writing his own fanfic right there, on the spot. In short, a person who is obsessed with character development to the point where he wants to change Garrett into something completely unrecognizable.

Then you have person #2, who basically is so pissed off that Garrett might change at ALL that he goes to the opposite extreme "I hate the girl kill her kill her KILL HER!" This type of person cannot stand character development at all.

I think regarding the girl, the best solution is a healthy balance. Let Garrett train her, develop her personality (and possibly she can be a protagonist in future games) but keep the focus on GARRETT.

Flashart
10th Jun 2009, 06:49
Agreed 100%

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 08:43
A problem is that the ending of Deadly Shadows was nice and poetic, but actually quite hard to put anything good after. There are lots of questions about what Garrett is going to do next and what he really thinks. I think the ending is more powerful if those questions are not answered.

Platinumoxicity
10th Jun 2009, 09:05
I feel like these conversations tend to degenerate into extremism, and the moderate voices of reason need to be heard. On the one hand, you have person #1 being all like "Garrett takes the girl and makes her a true keeper and then she's the hero of the next story because Garrett has superpowers because he's the One True Keeper, oh boy, and he goes into other dimensions to rob them," and basically writing his own fanfic right there, on the spot. In short, a person who is obsessed with character development to the point where he wants to change Garrett into something completely unrecognizable.

Then you have person #2, who basically is so pissed off that Garrett might change at ALL that he goes to the opposite extreme "I hate the girl kill her kill her KILL HER!" This type of person cannot stand character development at all.

I think regarding the girl, the best solution is a healthy balance. Let Garrett train her, develop her personality (and possibly she can be a protagonist in future games) but keep the focus on GARRETT.

Did you quote my question just for the lulz or is that your answer? You only admitted that you do see the girl as a major character in T4, which I don't think is that probable.

So if you wanted to answer the question: "Why do you want the girl bla bla bla?" (Since I can clearly see that you think that's the most probable progression) please answer the question. Or maybe that theory of yours (which is very accurate btw) got you carried away and you forgot.

fayfuya
12th Jun 2009, 14:31
Then there's the child that it is implied that Garrett takes in in the very end. Is the child going to be the main character? (personally, i hope not, because Garrett is just too badass and Stephen R. plays the perfect voice for him.)

That's exactly as it should be, the kid maybe should learn how to be a Thief from Garrett, we will play as Garrett, we maybe teach the kid how to sneak like Garrett, can be exciting, then the kid starts thieving himself, BUT I WANT TO PLAY GARRETT, and with no sad end for Thief 4 that at the end of the game Garrett dies and that kid is what left of him, it's too sad to leave Garrett