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S1R-BLUNTZWORTH
1st Jun 2009, 20:59
I can't understand why everyone hates Thief DS :( . Thief DS is what got me into the Thief games in the first place, and without it I wouldn't be here. I've played through them all, but 1&2 only after 3(DS). Thief DS was a great "entry point" for people who were never into the series before. Games can't always be made to COMPLETELY cater to the self-centered die hard fans, except The Dark Mod of course.. Thief DS happens to be my favorite of the series, but it doesn't mean it is without faults- Like the small area limitations, iffy storyline, easiness etc... But to completely dis-own the game and pick it apart and basically call it crap compared to the previous games is bs. I think the voice acting of DS, ambient sounds, and especially the atmosphere leaves the other games in the dust. Sure I'm gonna get flamed here, but I want Thief 4 to be MORE like Thief DS. IF you all want our next Thief game to be EXACTLY like the first incarnations, sounds like The Dark Mod would be a perfect fit for you!
Dark Mod is being made with these exact picky guidelines in mind, specifically for people like you. But I don't think you should stifle innovation of our next Thief game by mandating that it stick to strict Thief 1 & 2 standards. Without a doubt it must have Garrett as the main character, as well as be in the same midevil times. Constructive criticism is definitely necessary, but don't turn my next thief into an updated Thief 1 replica-

Note: there are other (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88689) threads to express your negative opinions

Things I liked about Thief Deadly Shadows-
1.Ambient Sounds/Music
2.Voice acting
3.Atmosphere
4.Level Design(with the exception of engine limitations/small areas)
5.Option of 1st and 3rd person views
6.Made the controls easier for noobs, i don't like being forced to use 20+ different buttons


HEAR MY PLEA DEVELOPERS, I LOVE THIEF DEADLY SHADOWS
Registered just to say this,


Joshua

GmanPro
1st Jun 2009, 21:01
I can't understand why everyone hates Thief DS :( .

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88689

S1R-BLUNTZWORTH
1st Jun 2009, 21:03
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88689
I've seen this thread and agree with some of it-
Was trying to make a positive thread, not a negative one :)

GmanPro
1st Jun 2009, 21:05
Well, the way you worded your first sentence ... my thread was made specifically for those forum users like you.


1.Ambient Sounds/Music
2.Voice acting
3.Atmosphere
4.Level Design

All of this was done better in TDP and TMA

MasterTaffer
1st Jun 2009, 21:05
I've seen this thread and agree with some of it-
Was trying to make a positive thread, not a negative one :)

Unfortunatly most people around here act jaded when DS is mentioned. I myself did enjoy DS, but acknowledge it was flawed.

InGroove2
1st Jun 2009, 21:32
I can't understand why everyone hates Thief DS :( . Thief DS is what got me into the Thief games in the first place, and without it I wouldn't be here. I've played through them all, but 1&2 only after 3(DS). Thief DS was a great "entry point" for people who were never into the series before. Games can't always be made to COMPLETELY cater to the self-centered die hard fans, except The Dark Mod of course.. Thief DS happens to be my favorite of the series, but it doesn't mean it is without faults- Like the small area limitations, iffy storyline, easyness etc... But to completely dis-own the game and pick it apart and basically call it crap compared to the previous games is bs. I think the voice acting of DS, ambient sounds, and especially the atmosphere leaves the other games in the dust. Sure I'm gonna get flamed here, but I want Thief 4 to be MORE like Thief DS. IF you all want our next Thief game to be EXACTLY like the first incarnations, sounds like The Dark Mod would be a perfect fit for you!
Dark Mod is being made with these exact picky guidelines in mind, specifically for people like you. But I don't think you should stifle innovation of our next Thief game by mandating that it stick to strict Thief 1 & 2 standards. Without a doubt it must have Garrett as the main character, as well as be in the same midevil times. Constructive criticism is definitely necessary, but don't turn my next thief into an updated Thief 1 replica-


Things I liked about Thief Deadly Shadows-
1.Ambient Sounds/Music
2.Voice acting
3.Atmosphere
4.Level Design(with the exception of engine limitations/small areas)
5.Option of 1st and 3rd person views
6.Made the controls easier for noobs, i don't like being forced to use 20+ different buttons


HEAR MY PLEA DEVELOPERS, I LOVE THIEF DEADLY SHADOWS
Registered just to say this,


Joshua

as someone who played DS first, i have to admit, it's probably easier to appreciate it when you play it first... and you can't MISS things like rope arrows, swimming and larger levels.

however, it's not like i was that much MORE blown away by TDP or TMA... thouh TMA is my favorite. TDP was a little too mystical and magical, by comparison, i thought that TMA was balanced in the opposite direction, but i do prefer humans and mansions to creatures and caves/tombs etc... TDS was actually balanced perfectly, which is not to say it's better.

TDS had a great storyline with some nice twists and turns, kept me interested the whole time and made the missions meaningful and suspensful. The AI was a little nutty, ESPECIALLY nearing the end when the streets became panicked with keeper assasins, pegans, hammers, city watch and civilians running around like mad (i always remember watching civilians running, stopping and twisting at the hips like 20 times before continuing on).

I thought the faction system was simple and well done, IN THAT it wasn't meant to have this huge impact on the game, it seemed like "bonus" features.

I can't think of any of the levels which i did not like. a handful, i completely loved.

i think the complaint about the loot percentage is nuts. one of the hallmarks of thief is that despite how serious the story is, there goals are always very "game-ish" especially with the idea of being able to shift difficulty between levels... THAT is not very immersive yet doesn't bother anyone. so having loot in a percentage so that a player knows how much of the total loot is left... is completely a non issue.

free roam city and an apartment were great additions that should not be overlooked.

Hypevosa
1st Jun 2009, 21:41
I liked:

The ending, it was a cool full circle to the first game.
The free city, and being able to pick pockets of passers by.
My apartment, and meeting my land lord i heard so much about in the first few games.
Seeing my body when I looked down, as if I were actually doing stuff.

jay pettitt
1st Jun 2009, 21:51
I think it helps to keep in mind that Deadly Shadows and T1 are not contemporary. T1 was released into the wild 5 years earlier, expectations were different. T1 took your expectations, tore them into little bits, threw them into the compost bin and insisted that you never thought about video games in the same way ever again. That's a tough act to follow.

Quite a few things I liked about Deadly Shadows, but they never really got chance to shine. The mantling was very good, but sadly underused. Physics allowed for some fun sneaking - you could shoot candles with broad head arrows and knock them over, changing the configuration of shadows in a room - but why bother when water arrows were so abundant.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 00:06
I liked the museum. It was a good final mission, the first one in the series not involving aliens or robots. ;)
I have nothing against aliens or robots, though.

-Constantine-
2nd Jun 2009, 00:20
I liked it. It was a good game, all in all. But I can perfectly understand the elitists that don't approve of it, seeing as it's far worse than the first two.

ZylonBane
2nd Jun 2009, 00:45
The problem with TDS is that it was designed to appeal to the sort of gamers who pick usernames like "S1R-BLUNTZWORTH".

Thieffanman
2nd Jun 2009, 00:51
Things I liked about Thief Deadly Shadows-
1.Ambient Sounds/Music
2.Voice acting
3.Atmosphere
4.Level Design(with the exception of engine limitations/small areas)
5.Option of 1st and 3rd person views
6.Made the controls easier for noobs, i don't like being forced to use 20+ different buttons

I hear you, especially about the easier controls: that made focusing on the game *much* easier. I also want to add #7: The entire storyline of TDS. It was a mystery/whodunit that made the game so *interesting*, and worth seeing through to the end.


HEAR MY PLEA DEVELOPERS, I LOVE THIEF DEADLY SHADOWS

There's a lot of hate for DS for different reasons; hell I think the AI could have been better. It was kind of funny to watch scared citizens run straight into walls-- and keep running, regardless of the fact that they weren't going anywhere :).

There are a lot of positive aspects that the developers can take from all three games when making T4. Like you, I think there are many positives to TDS that can be used as well that made the game so enjoyable, in particular the ones you listed. In my opinion, these things outweigh the bad points of TDS enough so that it was an enjoyable game worth playing two or three times :).

--Thieffanman

-Constantine-
2nd Jun 2009, 01:00
The problem with TDS is that it was designed to appeal to the sort of gamers who pick usernames like "S1R-BLUNTZWORTH".

TDS was a commercial product. Let's face it, Thief was not for everyone. Those who only like to walk around a spaceship with a tommy gun in ther hands, blasting the hell out of random aliens and monsters that pop out of everywhere will definately not enjoy a game where you have to plan every step and immerse yourself in a "living" world, let alone have to read two lines of a book or listen to some briefings in a cutscene. Those things were drastically toned down in TDS to appeal the masses, which is exactly my problem with this game.

Again, all in all, it wasn't a bad game. But I won't compare it to the masterpieces that were TDP and TMA. Not even close.

Zahr Dalsk
2nd Jun 2009, 01:04
The soundtrack (literally the scariest, most ominous soundtrack in any game I've heard), the ambience, the environments (one thing DS did brilliantly was the atmosphere) and the Pagan and Hammerite intro cutscenes.

Oh, and the Cradle.

Thieffanman
2nd Jun 2009, 01:21
The soundtrack (literally the scariest, most ominous soundtrack in any game I've heard), the ambience, the environments (one thing DS did brilliantly was the atmosphere)

Agreed! So far, the only place where I've found the music is here:

http://www.thief-thecircle.com/media/music/ ; including fan mixes.


Oh, and the Cradle.

One of the best levels on that game. :)

--Thieffanman

Inspector Drept
2nd Jun 2009, 03:19
I also love TDS !

Let´s see...
Robbing a tavern is such a cool way to start a game.
Then you can explore your own house, your own city.
Then you have the pagan level. It´s like some oniric travel, it always seems like it´s almost daylight on the abandoned factory.
And then the Cradle. The best level I ever played. I never felt so immersed, so afraid. The most intensive experience I´ve ever had.
I also liked how they fleshed out a bit the Garrett/Artemus relationship. I felt sorry for him at the end.
And the ending is classic and beautiful. A full circle.

mister_riz
2nd Jun 2009, 10:47
"not stifling innovation by sticking to T1&2 standards"

This made me die inside a little. I hope EM don't take on S1R-BLUNTZWORTH - type Thief players. I mean - sticking with TDS level design over T1&2? Slimming down the amount of controls? Jebus.

Do you have learning difficulties?

esme
2nd Jun 2009, 11:40
I never said I didn't like DS, I liked the level design, the lighting and shadows, the city sections helped tie it all together

it was a good game in it's own right

but it wasn't really up to the same standard as TMA and TDP and it wasn't a good sequel

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 11:49
The problem with TDS is that it was designed to appeal to the sort of gamers who pick usernames like "S1R-BLUNTZWORTH".


:hmm::confused::rolleyes::nut::mad2::lol::lmao::lmao::lol::scratch:

Nuff said

As a GAME,its was pretty good,as a THIEF GAME,it was way below par

Palmberg
2nd Jun 2009, 12:37
Those who started with DS seem to like it. I spent many years waiting for a new Thief game after the second, so when I finally got it I expected it to be a new "Thief game" (my hopes were really up). I really tried to like it, I wanted to like it. But.. nay, it doesn't live up to the standards of the older games, far from it. On it's own, a good game, but it's no Thief game to me.

jay pettitt
2nd Jun 2009, 12:40
This might rub some people up the wrong way, but I think the problem with T3 (ignoring the material stuff) was that it was designed to be exactly Thief all over again, to appeal to the same demographic and to do all the same old things that video game publishers (who are, let's face it, one trick ponies and slow - as in frozen to the spot - to adapt to changing demographics) always do. Where I think that went wrong is that the original taffers had grown up, moved on and were looking forward to something that had grown and moved along with them, what they actually got was a slightly bungled re-imagining targeted at an audience now five years their junior.

mister_riz
2nd Jun 2009, 12:42
This might rub some people up the wrong way, but I think the problem with T3 (ignoring the material stuff) was that it was designed to be exactly Thief all over again, to appeal to the same demographic and to do all the same old things that video game publishers (who are, let's face it, one trick ponies and slow - as in frozen to the spot - to adapt to changing demographics) always do. Where I think that went wrong is that the original taffers had grown up, moved on and were looking forward to something that had grown and moved along with them, what they actually got was a slightly bungled re-imagining targeted at an audience now five years their junior.

No.

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 13:11
This might rub some people up the wrong way, but I think the problem with T3 (ignoring the material stuff) was that it was designed to be exactly Thief all over again, to appeal to the same demographic and to do all the same old things that video game publishers (who are, let's face it, one trick ponies and slow - as in frozen to the spot - to adapt to changing demographics) always do. Where I think that went wrong is that the original taffers had grown up, moved on and were looking forward to something that had grown and moved along with them, what they actually got was a slightly bungled re-imagining targeted at an audience now five years their junior.

If it was Thief 1 or 2 with newer gfx and nothing else,I wouldnt be here now,I'd still be playing it...
It was too far from the origionals,not too similar!!!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Jun 2009, 13:42
The problem with TDS is that it was designed to appeal to the sort of gamers who pick usernames like "S1R-BLUNTZWORTH".



Do you have learning difficulties?

These two posts have been reported by three different people, so it is my duty to respond.

I realise that OP's may say they only intended to add some humour but, if so, it helps to make it more obvious. It is difficult to know for sure - what with us all having to rely on text communication without the benefit of body language. So before you hit the submit button, read it through as if you were the recipient and make sure it doesn't sound rude.

If it wasn't humour, then I have to ask you to be wary of our rules. Getting 'personal' about things does not contribute to intelligent discussion. We are all different, so we each hold our own views and have our own tastes. A username is not intended to somehow explain somebody's views, and a person's views does not imply that they have learning difficulties - so let's not make pointless references.

In a nutshell, please refrain from making any personal comments, and all will remain goodsie here. :cool:

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 14:22
These two posts have been reported by three different people, so it is my duty to respond.

I realise that OP's may say they only intended to add some humour but, if so, it helps to make it more obvious. It is difficult to know for sure - what with us all having to rely on text communication without the benefit of body language. So before you hit the submit button, read it through as if you were the recipient and make sure it doesn't sound rude.

If it wasn't humour, then I have to ask you to be wary of our rules. Getting 'personal' about things does not contribute to intelligent discussion. We are all different, so we each hold our own views and have our own tastes. A username is not intended to somehow explain somebody's views, and a person's views does not imply that they have learning difficulties - so let's not make pointless references.

In a nutshell, please refrain from making any personal comments, and all will remain goodsie here. :cool:

True,the blame is partially mine for requoting ZylonBane.Im sorry S1R-BLUNTZWORTH for mocking at your name/opinion.Please dont take me to the Hammers:flowers:

GmanPro
2nd Jun 2009, 14:42
If it was Thief 1 or 2 with newer gfx and nothing else,I wouldnt be here now,I'd still be playing it...
It was too far from the origionals,not too similar!!!

This

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 16:46
Things I liked about Thief Deadly Shadows-
1.Ambient Sounds/Music
2.Voice acting
3.AtmosphereThese are just the things that were great about T1 and T2 that it managed not to **** up.


What I liked about TDS was:
1. The story
2. The lockpicking
3. Wallhugging
4. Holy Water and Oil Flasks

GmanPro
2nd Jun 2009, 16:49
3. Wallhugging

That falls under the category of things in TDS that I hated actually. It was awful because you had to enable "wall hugging mode." Basically a sticky cover system. Even though realistically, just pressing yourself up against the wall with the movement keys should give the same bonus. Without all the bad.

Blue Sky
2nd Jun 2009, 18:06
This might rub some people up the wrong way, but I think the problem with T3 (ignoring the material stuff) was that it was designed to be exactly Thief all over again, to appeal to the same demographic and to do all the same old things that video game publishers (who are, let's face it, one trick ponies and slow - as in frozen to the spot - to adapt to changing demographics) always do. Where I think that went wrong is that the original taffers had grown up, moved on and were looking forward to something that had grown and moved along with them, what they actually got was a slightly bungled re-imagining targeted at an audience now five years their junior.

There may be a lot of truth in that...

I dunno, I think a lot of fans wrongly look at Deadly Shadows and say "it sucks because...because...because....it didn't have rope arrows!!!!"

Deadly Shadows got the atmosphere and feel of Thief absolutely spot on. It feels slightly lesser than the previous games because of things like choppy framerate, small levels, loading zones, mangled body awareness causing confused first person movement.

In terms of story, feel, look and gameplay it was spot on. Yeah, it had a few flaws, some of which were very VERY annoying.

It's still an amazing game, and was recognised by practically all gaming critics as being an amazing game despite its flaws.

It's just some of the so-called uber fans who deal out the abuse time after time...some of them admit to not having even played the game! There's so much greatness in Deadly Shadows...can't say that any of that greatness was in the demo, though.

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 19:28
There may be a lot of truth in that...

I dunno, I think a lot of fans wrongly look at Deadly Shadows and say "it sucks because...because...because....it didn't have rope arrows!!!!"

Deadly Shadows got the atmosphere and feel of Thief absolutely spot on. It feels slightly lesser than the previous games because of things like choppy framerate, small levels, loading zones, mangled body awareness causing confused first person movement.

In terms of story, feel, look and gameplay it was spot on. Yeah, it had a few flaws, some of which were very VERY annoying.

It's still an amazing game, and was recognised by practically all gaming critics as being an amazing game despite its flaws.

It's just some of the so-called uber fans who deal out the abuse time after time...some of them admit to not having even played the game! There's so much greatness in Deadly Shadows...can't say that any of that greatness was in the demo, though.

I can back this statement whole heartedly.

Blade_hunter
2nd Jun 2009, 19:37
4.Level Design(with the exception of engine limitations/small areas)


Engine limitations ? you must be kidding right ?
There is no engine limitations there is only Xbox crap limitations that dumbed down the whole gaming.

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 19:49
Engine limitations ? you must be kidding right ?
There is no engine limitations there is only Xbox crap limitations that dumbed down the whole gaming.

The xbox limitations is just an excuse,if im not mistaken,one of the previous unreal games (2003/2004)was also on the xbox,obviously it used the same engine,and levels were HUGE!so the fault is/was with the devs.

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 19:52
The xbox limitations is just an excuse,if im not mistaken,one of the previous unreal games (2003/2004)was also on the xbox,obviously it used the same engine,and levels were HUGE!so the fault is/was with the devs.

Bingo. *Gives the man a silver sollar*

Hypevosa
2nd Jun 2009, 20:07
The xbox limitations is just an excuse,if im not mistaken,one of the previous unreal games (2003/2004)was also on the xbox,obviously it used the same engine,and levels were HUGE!so the fault is/was with the devs.

*gives mechanist donation plate*

Petike the Taffer
2nd Jun 2009, 21:12
There may be a lot of truth in that...

I dunno, I think a lot of fans wrongly look at Deadly Shadows and say "it sucks because...because...because....it didn't have rope arrows!!!!"

Deadly Shadows got the atmosphere and feel of Thief absolutely spot on. It feels slightly lesser than the previous games because of things like choppy framerate, small levels, loading zones, mangled body awareness causing confused first person movement.

In terms of story, feel, look and gameplay it was spot on. Yeah, it had a few flaws, some of which were very VERY annoying.

It's still an amazing game, and was recognised by practically all gaming critics as being an amazing game despite its flaws.

It's just some of the so-called uber fans who deal out the abuse time after time...some of them admit to not having even played the game! There's so much greatness in Deadly Shadows...can't say that any of that greatness was in the demo, though.

Fully seconded !

As for me, I really loved :

1. The story and the fact that the atmosphere stayed fully true to the previous installments - it was a proper sequel in every sense of the word. I also appreciate the return
2. The AI NPC - some occasional flaws, but overall a massive improvement towards realism and difficulty : Guards finally notice opened doors and torches being extinguished directly next to their face. Flashbombing them doesn't render them "ready to blackjack".
3. More demanding blackjacking - from the rear, baby, from the rear ! :) That's how it's supposed to be done. :cool:
4. Dynamic shadows and lighting - nuff said. :cool:
5. The lockpicking - a definite improvement to make the gameplay more fun and realistic
6. Wallhugging - the same as lockpicks
7. The redesigned mechanical eye - as a high-tech prototype from an early steampunk society, it's pretty logical it would give you blurred vision while zooming. Visual and logical believability aside, it's new added ability of improvised night-vision was kickass ! I hardly ever used the eye while playing TMA. In TDS, I used it all the time.
8. Oil flasks ! :) And - finally - hand-thrown gas bombs ! :cool: And only one potion, not an arsenal of stupid instant magic juices like in TMA. :mad2: :cool: And moss arrows finally make actual carpets of moss, instead of "puddles". ;)
9. The addition of the dagger - more stealthy, discourages clowning around provoking silly melee fights, better for backstabbing (I used this mainly on zombies to stun them).
10. Two views to choose from and more iminent body awareness - despite some of it's annoying flaws, this was cool and useful at the same time.
11. Some of the new monsters, the re-imagined versions of existing ones (zombies, haunts, ghosts) and the overall balance in the game's tone

Things that I liked, but felt they weren't completely finished and improved :

1. The sandbox City roaming - perfect idea, but due to the dumb console compromises, it wasn't used to it's fullest (as well as the size of the levels, since the TDS engine can render missions as big as the ones in TDP and TMA - hust play one of it's FMs, and you'll see)
2. The faction system - a good idea, but weakly executed. Very simplified and only mildly useful. Needs to be improved and expanded upon, as well as the sandbox roaming and level size in the finish product.
3. The climbing gloves - worked quite fine, but were also clunky. They have my approval to return though, but only along with the rope arrows.
4. The enhanced physics, including NPC ragdolls - just needs improving, it wasn't completely convincing yet in TDS.

Yaphy
2nd Jun 2009, 21:31
For me, Thief Deadly Shadows was a great game. Sure the other games was good, it was thief, it was brilliant! But Thief DS was fresh and I am glad that they didnt stick to the original to long. They timed that train just right. Some of you wanted a new game like the first ones. I didnt, I really thought about this and if they added a more simular game as the previous games, I wouldnt have played it more than once because it would have been the same thing again. You would have known this new T3 game before you even started it. I think most people are mad because they where pros and needed to start over as rookies.

Thief DS had great graphics.
It had moving lights that "feelt the map and created shadows"
It was newthinking.
It had great sounds.
It had inproved enemies.
It had interactive factions.
It had a komplex story.
It made us see Garretts body, instead of beeing a floating head.
It was quite balanced (exept for a fue bugs)
It had the best thief level ever. (the cradle)
It had Garrets apartment
It had very much stuff that Thief 1 and 2 didnt have.

S1R-BLUNTZWORTH
2nd Jun 2009, 22:41
I think most people are mad because they where pros and needed to start over as rookies.

In particular, the controls were so much more difficult in the previous Thief's, some folks must feel their "mastering the keys" was voided and null. But ultimately, it's what allowed EVERYONE to enjoy the game, not just the the "key mastering elitists"-
.

Anyone ever play Nethack? Every key on the keyboard is used, and it took a very long time to enjoy it (I still like it very much). Most people would lose interest long before becoming proficient with the keys-

Thx for the good input everyone, glad to see I'm not the only one who enjoyed D.S.-:flowers:
It seems there is a certain demographic, that voices themselves very loudly- I just am concerned the DEV's will mistake the "loudess" for "many numbers"
That is why I'm mentioning DS, I'm just afraid the loudness will drown out other opinions-

Some of these folks are so repulsed when even mentioning this gem of a game, it really is becoming insane...
To the point of making hate comments towards me.:hmm: I am new here, I appreciate the warm welcome- Try to be mature even if the kids did made fun of you at school. I was one of those, and learned just to ignore the bully's-

Limesneeker
2nd Jun 2009, 22:55
I also think that DS was the peak of the series in terms of artistic direction/concept art; mood/atmosphere; storyline and plot...

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 23:44
That falls under the category of things in TDS that I hated actually. It was awful because you had to enable "wall hugging mode." Basically a sticky cover system. Even though realistically, just pressing yourself up against the wall with the movement keys should give the same bonus. Without all the bad.I agree it was implemented poorly, but I liked that it was an option.

Vae
3rd Jun 2009, 04:02
I think most people are mad because they where pros and needed to start over as rookies.


This couldn't be further from the truth. In every way T3 was an easier game than T1/T2, that was one of critical flaws of the game, which diminished the game considerably for many of the more advanced players. As much as I enjoyed the game (for many of the reasons you have indicated), it was littered with serious flaws. I believe you and others misunderstand the intention of most of the critical comments posted by seasoned players. Their comments are meant to be taken as a relative comparison to T1/T2, and not an absolute referrence to T3. Most are not "throwing the baby out with the bath water", even when they go "over the top" and/or are being sarcastic in order to drive home a point. Their intention (as everyones should be) is to be constructively critical in order in to maintain the hightest standards for the overall benefit of the THIEF experience.

GmanPro
3rd Jun 2009, 04:35
To me, the best thing that TDS did was keep the series alive. If Ion Storm hadn't made that mockery, then Thief 4 would not be in development right now. So if T4 is amazing, then I'll have TDS to thank for that.

Rachie
3rd Jun 2009, 05:34
DS was how I got introduced to the series too, and I loved it. It was totally new, totally fresh! So when I read how much people hated the game it's slightly surprising to me. I admit the A.I could use some serious work, and maybe the climbing gloves could actually be used more often and other little nit-picky things, but overall I found it a very enjoyable game.

I mean, how great was the Cradle? How cool was the museum level? Sure, there should be more work done to make it a more worthy homage to the series, but it was great in itself.

A milestone, if you will.

xDarknessFallsx
3rd Jun 2009, 05:45
What did I like? Its potential.

Unfortunately, my expectations were at the T2 bar and a little higher... yet the T2 bar wasn't even close to being met.

You're lucky you played TDS first... you didn't have any thieving dreams to be shattered

Vae
3rd Jun 2009, 07:14
Yeah, we early adopters of THIEF are spoiled with how incredible and revolutionary the T1/T2 experience was and expect nothing less then the highest standards in every aspect of the game.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 07:44
Agreed, we are spoiled... I actually played from the first game :D I remember seeing the letters blazing out amongst the other games on the shelf at my local Babbages (now taken over by gamestop) and it's triangular design. I was like "Thief? Playing as a thief sounds like it could be alot of fun" so I picked it up and read all the stuff on the box, and the game was what it's title implied. So my Dad got it for me, and I played it, and it was amazing :D Then came Thief 2: The Metal age, again with the blazing letters on the triangle box, but this time I saw the front first. Again it was awesome. Then thief 3 came, and honestly I did notice alot of differences, but I still enjoyed the game, and I thought the ending was awesome, because as soon as he said "It isn't easy to see a keeper" I flashbacked to the first game. it was sweet. :D

Qazi
3rd Jun 2009, 07:57
That falls under the category of things in TDS that I hated actually. It was awful because you had to enable "wall hugging mode." Basically a sticky cover system. Even though realistically, just pressing yourself up against the wall with the movement keys should give the same bonus. Without all the bad.

Wallhugging did work like that in Dark Project and Metal Age, no?
The Light Gem would always go darker if you pressed Garrett tight against a wall. I had assumed that this was TTLG's attempt at modelling this mechanic in an immersive manner. Certainly not with an obtrusive sticky mechanic.

Or have I been hallucinating this game behaviour all along?

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 10:49
In particular, the controls were so much more difficult in the previous Thief's, some folks must feel their "mastering the keys" was voided and null. But ultimately, it's what allowed EVERYONE to enjoy the game, not just the the "key mastering elitists"-
.

Anyone ever play Nethack? Every key on the keyboard is used, and it took a very long time to enjoy it (I still like it very much). Most people would lose interest long before becoming proficient with the keys-

Thx for the good input everyone, glad to see I'm not the only one who enjoyed D.S.-:flowers:
It seems there is a certain demographic, that voices themselves very loudly- I just am concerned the DEV's will mistake the "loudess" for "many numbers"
That is why I'm mentioning DS, I'm just afraid the loudness will drown out other opinions-

Some of these folks are so repulsed when even mentioning this gem of a game, it really is becoming insane...
To the point of making hate comments towards me.:hmm: I am new here, I appreciate the warm welcome- Try to be mature even if the kids did made fun of you at school. I was one of those, and learned just to ignore the bully's-

The only controll thing I found annoying and difficult to perfect in the first two games,was the jumping(in the bonehoard especially from ledge to ledge)and in that sense,TDS sucked even more,as jumps were vertical only,and you had to move after being in the air,which was very non realistic,instead of runnig,building momentum,and then hitting jump and alowing your acceleration to push you forward.

Alex50
3rd Jun 2009, 10:53
Played TDP in 2000. For the time it there was a unsurpassed game. But the time does not cost on a place. I support opinion S1R-BLUNTZWORTH and Petike the Taffer.
" That is better - TMA or TDS " it is dispute of five years' prescription. Each game has lacks. If Thief4 will differ from TDS, as TDS from TMA, it will be a masterpiece.

Direlord
3rd Jun 2009, 16:59
I played the Thief games in order from DP to DS when they were released so I would say i'm more old school. I did enjoy TDS though but I think the main thing with that game was good ideas with bad implementation.

The open city area I felt was a nice idea but got boring and tedious especially with all the zoning and everything would be frozen when you zoned out. The use of 3 fences nice idea but having to go all 3 just to sell stuff or buy specific items again tedious.

Cradle great level and probably the most memorable for me from DS

The faction stuff decent idea but really why would Garrett care so much about raising his faction to 2 groups he has robbed and possible killed in many instances before.

The lockpicking I think was a nice addition but it could have been done a little better use of more lockpicks or something.

i would actually say the addition of the dagger. Sword never seemed thief-y to me and goes against the you are a thief not a murderer mentality.

As someone else mentioned I'd say the biggest thing i'm thankful for DS for is it was another Thief game with Garrett voiced by Stephen Russell and kept the series alive. It also finished the trilogy which I believed the orginal creators wanted Thief to be.

Out of all the Thief games I think Metal Age was my favorite. Karras and the mechancist were a great antagonist and i enjoyed the story. The bank level was one of my favorites as I had a great deal of trouble beating this the first time as was very happy when i did. The metal children with the golems and robotic watchers with less undead.

GmanPro
3rd Jun 2009, 20:06
Wallhugging did work like that in Dark Project and Metal Age, no?
The Light Gem would always go darker if you pressed Garrett tight against a wall. I had assumed that this was TTLG's attempt at modelling this mechanic in an immersive manner. Certainly not with an obtrusive sticky mechanic.

Or have I been hallucinating this game behaviour all along?

You have

S1R-BLUNTZWORTH
3rd Jun 2009, 21:17
All of this was done better in TDP and TMA

This

If Ion Storm hadn't made that mockery, then Thief 4 would not be in development right now.

That falls under the category of things in TDS that I hated actually.


You have

You've made your point that DS is no good, or inferior or whatever-
The mockery comment is the only semi-positive comment you've managed to regurgitate-
Nobody likes a troll. Do you have anything NICE to say for a change?
Please reconsider going back under the bridge for a moment of self reflection..
And come back out when you have something insightful besides one word spam comments :)
Hell, I don't even care as long as it's in nice context-
Don't you already have your own thread dedicated to bashing, where you can argue/be negitive with ppl on, and It's linked in the original post-

kaekaelyn
3rd Jun 2009, 21:32
TDP and TMA were masterpieces, and TDS was a damn good game. It may have missed the mark a little, but it's a lot of fun if you just take it for what it is.

What I liked about TDS:

- The music was spot-on.
- Some of the cutscenes were brilliant!
- It had a great storyline that respected the first two installments. This could easily have been neglected.
- It was fun and engaging. (Subjective, but what isn't?)
- The level design of the Cradle was very fresh and original. Personally I do not like being scared by video games, but it was definitely something different that no previous Thief game had given us before, and it was always intriguing. It kept me playing even though I was too scared to really enjoy it.
- The new mechanical eye
- Despite its deviations from TDP and TMA, TDS did keep true to a lot of other great things from the first two games. Interesting readables is one that comes to mind--I especially liked the one about the little girl with the golden hairbrush who was being lured away by Pagans, unbeknownst to her mother. Our favorite weapons and supplies returned. And, of course, "taffers" and Stephen Russell as both Garrett and our beloved Benny!

vowdy
3rd Jun 2009, 22:02
apart from the small levels I really liked TDS.

Especially levels like the Cradle. You can hardly deny that level was a piece of art on it's own.
I also really liked the atmosphere in "The House of Widow Moira". pro stuff right there!

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 22:58
You've made your point that DS is no good, or inferior or whatever-

The mockery comment is the only semi-positive comment you've managed to regurgitate-

Nobody likes a troll.

Please reconsider going back under the bridge for a moment of self reflection..

And come back out when you have something insightful besides one word spam comments :)



Easy cowboy, jeez,talk about being personal. (wink wink). Anyway. Its his OPINOIN, hes entitled to it!

Everybody take a breather. Relax. Anyways, im typing this from a 6 year old mobile phone, so bear with me.

Now, lets see where TDS deviated/ innovated/ removed stuff found in the previous games.

1st of all, climbing gloves instead of rope arrows, good idea, badly implemented, generally pointless, unless used for escape, very few areas in the entire game were made to utilise it.

And offcoarse, this might seem insignificant, but i miss hearing the "thud" sound my trusted rope arrow used to make.


2nd, faction system, again, good idea, bad implementation.
How can Garrett be allied with 2 factions who are at war with each other?
And to top it all, they dont mind, thats like trying to have light and dark in the same container, at the same time.

Its not normal, war doesnt work like that. And the"favours"you did involved killing rust mites? Shooting moss at kerbstones?
Heck, Garrett could have transported DHL packages between bases and it would have been more believable.


3rd? Now lets move on to the city hub, good idea to have Garrett physically going to his missions, but the city was broken into too many small sectors, due to the whole loading screen stuff in between.
We dont need Oblivion sized cities, Im sure a size similar to that found in asassins creed will more than suffice. So, so far, all 3 new ideas, were good, but poorly implemented.


4th? Secondly, small levels, due to being broken up by loading areas. This cannot be blamed on the engine, or xbox, since UC1 or 2, or whatever was also on the xbox, and featured HUGE levels.
Loading screens broke the immersion.


5th? Heres the famous one, 3rd person?
Not a problem, but wait, whats that?
The first person view felt more like a static camera in TDS than it did in the previous games.
NO ONE gives a damn if you prefer/play in 3rd person view, but that doesnt justify totally messing up 1st person
view.


6th? No swimmable water?
What, did Garrett suddenly forget how to swim?
Cmon, it worked in the previous games.
It was fun, so why on earth, did they leave that out? Blame the engine if you must, but thats not a good enough excuse....


I get your point that TDS was a good game, its true, but hey, what was it that made it good again?
TDP & TMA, the two games it took inspiration from (in terms of setting, sound, ambience, enviroment, story, stealth, music, certain cutscenes etc) .
So, while you point out that in this regard that the game was brilliant, guess what? The previous games were equally brilliant if not more.


Now, lets look at things it did better than previous games, the cradle?
Brilliant, I personally loved the pagan level, as well as overlook mansion.
Better than some previous levels by a mile. Also some music and ambience.
TDS also had lighting/shadow effects only rivaled by DOOM3 in its time.
That was an achievement.



BUT, it deviated in many ways from the previous games.
Pagans sounded like they were on crack.
Burricks, Craymen, Fireshadows and even Spiders were removed,
and replaced with generic average, non interesting beasts, which lacked uniqueness and charm of previous beasts.



Keepers also lost their mystery factor, and completely failed to live up to the awesomeness expected and portrayed by the previous games.
They were portrayed as nothing more than a group of mages who use magic (glyphs) only in extreme cases.
The only faction which kept its charm, look and feel 100% voices and all included, was the hammers.


Keepers, well at least Orland and others, no longer even wore proper black robes!


What happened to the city watch dressed in blue, with "bobby" helmets?


Why did all pagans seem stupid?


Why were most guards in most mansions so generic/similar?


Why did the noise arrow sound like fireworks?


Why were so many women in the street, walking alone wearing jewelry?


Why was Garrett dressed in leather tights instead of a black, flowing robe?


Why was the ai as buggy as the previous games?


Why was there so little reference to the mechanists? (4, maybe 5 references..).


Oh yeah, loot glint, wtf?


These are all minor issues, but they do exist. Even though they arent as major as the 1st 5 issues, they are issues.


If these problems were less, or did not exist, I put my head on the block,and hereby state, TDS, COULD have been better than the 1st 2 games.


All in all, TDS was... Different, easy and fun, i'd give it a 6.5/10.


Since you PROBABLY feel were being biased towards TDS, make a poll, or request someone to do it for you, then, you could really see what people think.


I promise you.We are not being pig headed, but rather would just like to prevent its flaws from being carried over into THI4F.

Thank you.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
3rd Jun 2009, 23:12
You've made your point that DS is no good, or inferior or whatever-
The mockery comment is the only semi-positive comment you've managed to regurgitate-
Nobody likes a troll. Do you have anything NICE to say for a change?
Please reconsider going back under the bridge for a moment of self reflection..
And come back out when you have something insightful besides one word spam comments :)
Hell, I don't even care as long as it's in nice context-
Don't you already have your own thread dedicated to bashing, where you can argue/be negitive with ppl on, and It's linked in the original post-

I understand you want to keep your thread a positive one, but on a public forum this is virtually impossible to achieve and you say yourself (in introduction) that you expect to get flamed.

Regarding your specific comments to GmanPro. Just because a member doesn't always have something 'nice' to say, doesn't make him/her a troll. The fact that they might decide to occasionally use one word comments cannot be accurately or fairly defined as 'spam'. Finally, your last two sentences are flawed. When you create a thread, you are inviting discussion and this can either be negative, positive or neutral. The fact that you personally prefer 'positive only' does not mean that everyone must, or even will, post thus. Nor can you exclude someone from your thread or tell them to post elsewhere, just because you disagree with that person's opinion or that it doesn't fit in with yours. Sorry, but everyone is different and you cannot regulate a public discussion and somehow expect it to follow a set of given rules or the personal preferences of the original poster. The only way you could achieve this is to ask a moderator to delete all posts that you deem as not positive enough - and that would never happen. So.... ;)

On the whole, the responses so far have been positive (or neutral), so try to focus on those. It is better to ignore any comments that do not interest you and instead respond to those that do. :)

Blade_hunter
3rd Jun 2009, 23:20
The xbox limitations is just an excuse,if im not mistaken,one of the previous unreal games (2003/2004)was also on the xbox,obviously it used the same engine,and levels were HUGE!so the fault is/was with the devs.

None of those there is only Unreal championship 1&2 ;)
But I agree with the devs fault yes there is their fault to have chosen to develop games for that platform ...

Rachie
4th Jun 2009, 04:32
TDP and TMA were masterpieces, and TDS was a damn good game. It may have missed the mark a little, but it's a lot of fun if you just take it for what it is.

What I liked about TDS:

- The music was spot-on.
- Some of the cutscenes were brilliant!
- It had a great storyline that respected the first two installments. This could easily have been neglected.
- It was fun and engaging. (Subjective, but what isn't?)
- The level design of the Cradle was very fresh and original. Personally I do not like being scared by video games, but it was definitely something different that no previous Thief game had given us before, and it was always intriguing. It kept me playing even though I was too scared to really enjoy it.
- The new mechanical eye
- Despite its deviations from TDP and TMA, TDS did keep true to a lot of other great things from the first two games. Interesting readables is one that comes to mind--I especially liked the one about the little girl with the golden hairbrush who was being lured away by Pagans, unbeknownst to her mother. Our favorite weapons and supplies returned. And, of course, "taffers" and Stephen Russell as both Garrett and our beloved Benny!

Oh yes, I forgot to say what I liked about DS. ^^ That sums it up for me nicely. :)

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 04:41
Huzi's wall of text is hurting my eyes... >_< I want to read it but I keep getting lost in the wall. Needs to be set into paragraphs.

UPDATE: Ok, I got it, lost it a few times but I got it. And I agree with it whole heartedly.

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 10:48
None of those there is only Unreal championship 1&2 ;)
But I agree with the devs fault yes there is their fault to have chosen to develop games for that platform ...

Ok, good point, but im sure you get what im saying...


Huzi's wall of text is hurting my eyes... >_< I want to read it but I keep getting lost in the wall. Needs to be set into paragraphs.

UPDATE: Ok, I got it, lost it a few times but I got it. And I agree with it whole heartedly.

Sorry, as I stated at the top of the wall, please bear with me, as im typing from an obsolete mobile phone:o

But fear not, I will edit

Matuzzz
4th Jun 2009, 11:46
2nd, faction system, again, good idea, bad implementation. How can Garrett be allied with 2 factions who are at war with each other? And to top it all, they dont mind, thats like trying to have light and dark in the same container, at the same time. Its not normal, war doesnt work like that. And the"favours"you did involved killing rust mites? Shooting moss at kerbstones? Heck, Garrett could have transported DHL packages between bases and it would have been more believable.


6th? No swimmable water? What, did Garrett suddenly forget how to swim? Cmon, it worked in the previous games. It was fun, so why on earth, did they leave that out? Blame the engine if you must, but thats not a good enough excuse....


-You were thief and your work with faction was not revealed to the opposite one. So you could work with both. But yes, that favour making was...BAD.

-Really much was said about swimming and I don´t think it is that important. I fear we will get a game where in every room will be at least one swimming pool to prevent Garrett from forgetting to swim. But that one thing when you jumped out of the map limits to the water and you just died screaming like being burned was....you know what I want to say.

kin
4th Jun 2009, 11:55
But that one thing when you jumped out of the map limits to the water and you just died screaming like being burned was.... ...an obvious sign that the game realeased before it got finished.

Matuzzz
4th Jun 2009, 12:00
...an obvious sign that the game realeased before it got finished.

Yes, yes, but I still think those were just details and didn´t brake my pleasure from gameplay. Too much people are arguing here about details, which can´t make the game such bad as they are saying. Every game has some flaws.

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 13:42
-You were thief and your work with faction was not revealed to the opposite one. So you could work with both.

Thanks for the obvious, but if I wanted that, I'd play splinter cell, Double agent instead. At least that game got it right.


Yes, yes, but I still think those were just details and didn´t brake my pleasure from gameplay. Too much people are arguing here about details, which can´t make the game such bad as they are saying. Every game has some flaws.

Yes, yes,but TDS had many,the only thing that made it such a good game, was basically everything it took and didnt change fromthe previous game. My post is not to murder TDS, its to prevent its flaws from being carried over to THI4F.

clock12345
4th Jun 2009, 15:14
thief 3 was the first thief games i ever played it was the most fun game! its still my number 1.

GmanPro
4th Jun 2009, 17:13
Yes, yes, but I still think those were just details and didn´t brake my pleasure from gameplay. Too much people are arguing here about details, which can´t make the game such bad as they are saying. Every game has some flaws.

My point was that its the compilation of all those flaws that in the end made the game bad. Not to mention that some of those flaws were purposefully put into the game.

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 17:36
Im seriously gonna make a poll about this when im infront of my pc.Many people are simply not getting the arguament.The gripe does not lie with TDS,we dont hate TDS,we hate err..Ion Storm...



AND TDS :lol:

Matuzzz
4th Jun 2009, 18:17
Im seriously gonna make a poll about this when im infront of my pc.Many people are simply not getting the arguament.The gripe does not lie with TDS,we dont hate TDS,we hate err..Ion Storm...


Hmm...and do you know that people from Looking Glass went to Ion so TDS was actually made by the same people? :)

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 19:20
Hmm...and do you know that people from Looking Glass went to Ion so TDS was actually made by the same people? :)

"PEOPLE" is a being vague, could have been just 8 "people", or could have been most of the team. It doesnt make a difference, whether it was everyone or not, many of the same "people", were the same "people" who worked on the origional Deus Ex. Just because they worked on masterpiece prior to dishing out pure trash, doesnt mean you should view the trash as a masterpiece. The same can be said for Hellgate London and Daikatana. Just because they were worked on by Flagship studios (bunch of former Diablo 2 devs) or John Romero (who worked on Doom & Quake... I think) respectively, doesnt mean you should accept whatever they give you simply because the made gold in the past. Even if TDS was produced by LGS themselves, doesnt change the fact that it was below par. In that regard, the only studios that have hardly ever failed their fans overdemanding and crazy expectations at large, is Blizzard, Infinity Ward and Valve. So kudos to them for being successfull from both a gaming and monetary perspective. But if their future games end up being crap, i will not lie to myself and defend them fanatically just because "tis the mighty Blizzard/Valve/Infinity Ward".Hope you understand why you shouldn't suck up to crappy devs no matter what.

Matuzzz
4th Jun 2009, 20:39
"PEOPLE" is a being vague, could have been just 8 "people", or could have been most of the team. It doesnt make a difference, whether it was everyone or not, many of the same "people", were the same "people" who worked on the origional Deus Ex. Just because they worked on masterpiece prior to dishing out pure trash, doesnt mean you should view the trash as a masterpiece. The same can be said for Hellgate London and Daikatana. Just because they were worked on by Flagship studios (bunch of former Diablo 2 devs) or John Romero (who worked on Doom & Quake... I think) respectively, doesnt mean you should accept whatever they give you simply because the made gold in the past. Even if TDS was produced by LGS themselves, doesnt change the fact that it was below par. In that regard, the only studios that have hardly ever failed their fans overdemanding and crazy expectations at large, is Blizzard, Infinity Ward and Valve. So kudos to them for being successfull from both a gaming and monetary perspective. But if their future games end up being crap, i will not lie to myself and defend them fanatically just because "tis the mighty Blizzard/Valve/Infinity Ward".Hope you understand why you shouldn't suck up to crappy devs no matter what.

I understand and agree with you...I just metioned it...but Blizzard begin to stink of money too I think.

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 22:17
I understand and agree with you...I just metioned it...but Blizzard begin to stink of money too I think.

True, VERY TRUE! But as long as they keep on making quality games, I dont mind the stench

CurtX
5th Jun 2009, 01:12
I don't think everyone "hated" TDS. I think that many were disappointed, which doesn't mean hate. It came up short in many aspects more than a Thief sequel should have. But still enjoyed it somewhat.

xDarknessFallsx
5th Jun 2009, 01:13
Im seriously gonna make a poll about this when im infront of my pc.Many people are simply not getting the arguament.The gripe does not lie with TDS,we dont hate TDS,we hate err..Ion Storm...AND TDS :lol:

No poll needed. My hunch is that the ones who like TDS are probably the ones who played TDS first and don't get into the T1/T2 games as much because the graphics are dated; the ones who like T1/T2 better probably played T1/T2 first and were later let down by TDS. And yes, TDS failures were a result of ISA.

Everyone can come up with a few things they liked about TDS. The things I come up with were in T2 already and executed better in T2.

If there's any poll submitted, it needs to find out if those who actually like TDS the most in the series are folks whose first Thief experience was with TDS. I'd rather no poll be submitted related to TDS, though. I don't want to encourage Th4f devs to look at TDS for inspiration.

GmanPro
5th Jun 2009, 01:15
I don't think everyone "hated" TDS. I think that many were disappointed, which doesn't mean hate. It came up short in many aspects more than a Thief sequel should have. But still enjoyed it somewhat.

I hated it because it was good when it could have been great. I am not one to suffer mediocrity gladly.

xDarknessFallsx
5th Jun 2009, 01:19
Good call. I actually hated it because it was 'decent' (and even annoying in many respects) when it could have been great.

Inspector Drept
5th Jun 2009, 03:23
I played TDP first. Then TMA.

TDS was the third game.
The graphics were amazing. Of course, the big hud, blue footsteps and all the engine problems were flaws.
But the game atmosphere was cool, the story was great.

In the end having fun is the most important thing. And I had fun with it.
And I consider the Cradle the best Thief mission ever.

MasterTaffer
5th Jun 2009, 04:48
Down, dude. Take a chill pill. The guy started a thread to discuss out what WORKED in Deadly Shadows. Nobody is looking to start a fight but you with that post.

Just get a paper bag, take some deep breathes and mellow out. They are games, no reason to go ballistic over them.

MasterTaffer
5th Jun 2009, 05:39
It's not a crime to like Deadly Shadows and not understand some of the ire it recieves from some of the more die hard fans. Having these feelings is not an indication of a desire to start an arguement, nor are they motivated by trolling. I've been playing Thief since 1998, hold the series in a dear place, and even I think some of the rancor Deadly Shadows recieves ranges from irrational to "foaming at the mouth" rabid.

If this stems from an addiction as you say, then some of you guys need to go cold turkey for a few weeks or find some gum or a patch to simmer the hell down.

MasterTaffer
5th Jun 2009, 06:13
I have not wise cracked, and I sensed nothing from him. He's not trying to start a fight. You're percieving something that isn't there. I'm not going to get into a verbal arguement with you when you're not acting rational.

There is a thread devoted entirely to pointing out Deadly Shadow's shortcomings, and it can be found here. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88689) It's perfectly reasonable for him to make one to point out what Deadly Shadows did right. He's not dismissing anything, he's not aiming to attack you or anyone else.

So, once again. Calm down.

kabatta
5th Jun 2009, 06:20
I hope you can bear with my silly opinion. I first started TDS like a shooter (dumb, I know), then, slowly, I started to comprehend the mechanics of a stealth game. It was the very first stealth game I had ever played. Then TMA and TDP came. I perfected my gaming and started to notice how good the first two games were. Of course the third one was good too, but:
-the gear is no longer considered a luxury,
-Garrett drowns in 1 meter of water,
-you treat the guards like the undead (just running next to them, you will never be caught),
-for each murder in the city there are a few distresset npc's that when encountering you say "I know what you did, and i'm calling the guards",
-the npc's don't avoid boxes, tables, walls. they seem a little...excuse my formula as it just crosses my mind right now...lobotomized,
-you can kill each and every day everybody on the map, and so in the missions,
-the blue highligt
-the blackjack and stair animation
-the fact that in every mission that I go I seem to step on the cat, I surprise I haven't stolen it with the loot. (my fault, not the game's :P)
-the fact that the hag dies from tripping in a puddle of oil.
Now for the positive things abouth TDS:
-the atmosphere
-the animals that can atract attention
-the oil flask(i'm sadistic and like to make a puddle of oil and then throw a firecracker right in the middle)
-the npc scripted dialogues and reactions
-the atmosphere in the cradle (spooked me really good)

I find it awkward that no npc find suspicious the box that is thrown straight into their heads(I forghet the reactions in the first two games, didn't try that there).
Oh, and i allso like the way the guards show the fist of anger when they can't reach you allthough you are 2 centimeters away from them. :P

S1R-BLUNTZWORTH
5th Jun 2009, 06:42
It's not a crime to like Deadly Shadows and not understand some of the ire it recieves from some of the more die hard fans. Having these feelings is not an indication of a desire to start an arguement, nor are they motivated by trolling. I've been playing Thief since 1998, hold the series in a dear place, and even I think some of the rancor Deadly Shadows recieves ranges from irrational to "foaming at the mouth" rabid.

If this stems from an addiction as you say, then some of you guys need to go cold turkey for a few weeks or find some gum or a patch to simmer the hell down.
Thanks for restoring some sanity to this thread :)
Some people just go off the deep end because I say I favor A GAME:lol:

Ignorance through willful dismissal of the facts should not be ignored. He knew he was gonna start a fight. He admitted it.
A pre-emptive strike is guaranteed to keep the war going, and like I said, there's no way this guy didn't know this was picking a fight. This isn't a TDS only thread. He didn't ask us to kindly refrain from starting a war, while avoiding attacks himself.


He wise-cracked, and now you have. It's unnecessary and does no good. I make a point to tell TDS-haters to back off from giving someone a hard time for liking/loving TDS, but my gripe here is the meanness tainting the first post, which ruined the constructive potential for even the TDS-haters to chime in with the things they do like about it. I don't think it's possible to list good things about TDS without apologizing, making exceptions, or poking at someone, and I say this, because I've yet to see it. You guys have a chance to show you are better than us by avoiding fallacious personal jabs. If those weren't fightin' words he said
What your saying is pure delusion-

Heh. I'm am down. I am chill. I'm not going off over a game, I'm telling a guy picking a fight he doesn't have a leg to stand on
Nobody wants to fight here but you-
You sir,are acting like a rabid dog waiting for someone to bite-
Preemptive Strike? War? Seems like someone with PTSD with a rifle in there hands hoping for one-
Just put the pipe down, and slowly step away from the keyboard.......:whistle:
Please

kin
5th Jun 2009, 07:09
I really enjoyed Thief D.S.- What did you Like about D.S.?
I liked that made me hate it and go back to TMA fan missions.

jtr7
5th Jun 2009, 07:36
WHAT I LIKED ABOUT TDS.


The atmosphere of the Cradle and the Moira Mansion, and Docks.
The hilliness of Docks and Auldale, and other places, as it's important to emphasize the vertical rise and fall of terrain that comes down from mountains to a River and Ocean.
Characters: Artemus and Caduca. Edwina Moira and Curtis. The Eye. Inspector Drept. The return of Dyan and Larkspur (and they remembered Larkspur's tattoos!). Nate wells' return, and Stephen Russell's and Dan Thron's multiple character reprisals, and their humorous conversations as the guards.
The interesting new take on the crystals' appearances.
The madness of the Rutherford family, all of them, Mortimer, Julian, Ember, and Elizabeth.
The tie-ins to the previous chapters.
The promising higher resolution of sounds and textures.
Quicksave/Quickload (important for working on the Thief encyclopedia, as well as when play-time is erratic).
Instances of subtlety, as in things that are there but aren't consciously noticed because they seem natural.
The striking score for Moira's.
Increased interactivity with environment.
The rich detail of the stories that exists in the gamefiles.
More looks at Pagan rituals.
More special objects.
The Enforcer concept as originally envisioned.
Eric Brosius's contributions as voice-actor and helping Alex Brandon, and certain tracks.
Alex Brandon's programming to get the sound of Thief working like Thief required.
Alex Duran and his great last-minute rush, working overtime like crazy--and without pay--to get T3Ed to us, with Jordan Thomas's help and Eidos's blessing.
Getting some story questions answered that were left hanging from TDP/Gold/TMA.
Pinch-snuffable candles.
More detail in the scenery and set-design of each space.
Original devs having a chance to complete what they started.
More characters and places and districts in general.
New idle animations.
The prisoners knowing each other's names.
Classic elements and themes repeated as the leitmotifs they are.
The feel when entering an area for the first time.
More philosophy from the most centered members of each faction.
The mentions of Mechanists, since they'd had such a huge impact on The City when they were around.
Cutscenes with signature Thron work.
The continuing presence of the Trickster's beast men.


I'm sure I could think of more...:)

jay pettitt
5th Jun 2009, 07:37
Things I liked about Thief Deadly Shadows-
1.Ambient Sounds/Music
2.Voice acting
3.Atmosphere
4.Level Design(with the exception of engine limitations/small areas)
5.Option of 1st and 3rd person views
6.Made the controls easier for noobs, i don't like being forced to use 20+ different buttons


HEAR MY PLEA DEVELOPERS, I LOVE THIEF DEADLY SHADOWS
Registered just to say this,


Joshua

Jolly good. Items 1 to 4 are staples of the thief series, I hope they continue into Thiaf. Item 5 - the option of choosing 1st or 3rd person is contentious - at lot of people feel it was more trouble than it was worth, but if you liked it then fair enough, there's no accounting for taste.

Item 6 I think I'm in broad agreement with you. The default movement controls, especially in Dark Project are out of step with the now pretty much standard WASD arrangement that they're only ever going seem awkward and alienate new players. Inventory could get a bit unwieldy and I was forever being frustrated by trying to frob things while I had a key or my lock picks or a health potion out from last the last thing I did.Though in fairness to Dark Project, the basic Frobbing notion they came up with is fantastic. I think you'll find that most people would like Thi4f to have a clean and accessible user interface of some sort.

Appealing for calm with your left hand while your right is denouncing all who disagree with you as oppressors, die hards and maniacal animals is probably not going to work.

S1R-BLUNTZWORTH
5th Jun 2009, 07:39
I liked that made me hate it and go back to TMA fan missions.

Yes, thank you :)
Now... back to the things we appreciated about the third installment of the series:thumb:

kabatta
5th Jun 2009, 07:50
You can't just have the half full glass. Ignoring the empty half would mean ignoring the reality.

Nate
5th Jun 2009, 07:52
Agreed on all except the 3rd person view. 3rd person view is a complete WASTE of developers time and efforts that could be better spent elsewhere.

Things that bugged me besides 3rd person were:
-loot glint (how about just making valuable stuff LOOK valuable)
-purple world
-carrying a ton of equipment effortlessly....I mean seriously, 50 freaken arrows?!?!
-npc AI wouldn't notice if their buddy got knocked out right next to them
-npc AI would chase Garrett for all of 30 seconds, and would then go back to normal state
-rag doll effects were literally ragdollish

MasterTaffer
5th Jun 2009, 07:52
You can't just have the half full glass. Ignoring the empty half would mean ignoring the reality.

There's an entire thread devoted to pointing out where Deadly Shadow fails. It's perfectly reasonable for there to be a thread to point out where it succeeds.

S1R-BLUNTZWORTH
5th Jun 2009, 07:54
You can't just have the half full glass. Ignoring the empty half would mean ignoring the reality.
I even posted a link in the original post that contains the other 1/2 glass of water-
I'll post it again (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88689):mad2:
It's better that they're seperate, otherwise the water becomes murky and undrinkable-

kabatta
5th Jun 2009, 07:55
WHAT I LIKED ABOUT TDS.


The atmosphere of the Cradle and the Moira Mansion, and Docks.
The hilliness of Docks and Auldale, and other places, as it's important to emphasize the vertical rise and fall of terrain that comes down from mountains to a River and Ocean.
Characters: Artemus and Caduca. Edwina Moira and Curtis. The Eye. Inspector Drept. The return of Dyan and Larkspur (and they remembered Larkspur's tattoos!). Nate wells' return, and Stephen Russell's and Dan Thron's multiple character reprisals, and their humorous conversations as the guards.
The interesting new take on the crystals' appearances.
The madness of the Rutherford family, all of them, Mortimer, Julian, Ember, and Elizabeth.
The tie-ins to the previous chapters.
The promising higher resolution of sounds and textures.
Quicksave/Quickload (important for working on the Thief encyclopedia, as well as when play-time is erratic).
Instances of subtlety, as in things that are there but aren't consciously noticed because they seem natural.
The striking score for Moira's.
Increased interactivity with environment.
The rich detail of the stories that exists in the gamefiles.
More looks at Pagan rituals.
More special objects.
The Enforcer concept as originally envisioned.
Eric Brosius's contributions as voice-actor and helping Alex Brandon, and certain tracks.
Alex Brandon's programming to get the sound of Thief working like Thief required.
Alex Duran and his great last-minute rush, working overtime like crazy--and without pay--to get T3Ed to us, with Jordan Thomas's help and Eidos's blessing.
Getting some story questions answered that were left hanging from TDP/Gold/TMA.
Pinch-snuffable candles.
More detail in the scenery and set-design of each space.
Original devs having a chance to complete what they started.
More characters and places and districts in general.
New idle animations.
The prisoners knowing each other's names.
Classic elements and themes repeated as the leitmotifs they are.
The feel when entering an area for the first time.
More philosophy from the most centered members of each faction.
The mentions of Mechanists, since they'd had such a huge impact on The City when they were around.
Cutscenes with signature Thron work.
The continuing presence of the Trickster's beast men.


I'm sure I could think of more...:)

I fully agree.

huzi73
5th Jun 2009, 08:20
The thing I hated about TDS, is that it actually ended up being pretty decent just because it was a Thief game, using Thief elements. If it used its same crappy gimmicks, and did not take place in the Thief universe, did not have the same factions, setting, Stephen Russell or Eric Brosius, which was ofcourse all good points taken from the previous games, it would have been SO sucky.

Ehem *cough cough* Anyway, this is what I like about TDS

Eric Brosius was involved with the sound again
Stephen Russell played Garrett again
It had the Hammers and Pagans again (I loved the Pagan sanctuary mission. Also the Hammers look and feel was spot on)
It was made easy, thus accessible to noobs, bringing many of them into the series.
It payed homage to the uneducated (for lack of a non bannable word) since the general ai always made out with walls, chairs, tables, crates, etc
It took place in the same time period.
It used Garrett.
It had a haunted level.
It had a shadow based stealth system.
It had climbing gloves.
It had a dagger instead of a sword.

Im sure I can think of more if I really exert myself.
But heck, these points alone got it quite a decent rating...

Qazi
5th Jun 2009, 09:03
You have

Haha. Yes this is the case. Currently replaying DP, just finished the Bonehoard.
The mechanic only works on the occasional wall, i.e. because those walls were just naturally in a deeper shadow right up against it.
Rather than everywhere like my memory suggested. :D

Matuzzz
5th Jun 2009, 09:33
No poll needed. My hunch is that the ones who like TDS are probably the ones who played TDS first and don't get into the T1/T2 games as much because the graphics are dated; the ones who like T1/T2 better probably played T1/T2 first and were later let down by TDS.


I play it from the very beginning 10 years ago and enjoyed TDS very much. And I think it is because expectations, because a didn´t even know they were making Thief 3 and one day my brother just brought it home. I star with playing immediately and loved it.

jay pettitt
5th Jun 2009, 11:06
I even posted a link in the original post that contains the other 1/2 glass of water-
I'll post it again (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88689):mad2:
It's better that they're seperate, otherwise the water becomes murky and undrinkable-

Deadly Shadows is murky. There are things I kinda liked, but with qualifications. I'm sure a lot of people think the same. Sorry 'bout that.

Alex50
5th Jun 2009, 12:41
Silly and senseless dispute. You are similar Pagans and Hammerits, are blind in the proofs. You yourselves are not capable to hear. Demand, that all would be like TMA, but here want innovations. In TDS these innovations were used. They were successful and are not successful, are magnificent and are awful. But they were, and to deny it silly. Open eyes - world is imperfect. Also that you require of two tens people creating game.

Hypevosa
5th Jun 2009, 13:24
You are similar Pagans and Hammerits, are blind in the proofs. You yourselves are not capable to hear.

That's exactly what it's like. Good metaphor.

kabatta
5th Jun 2009, 15:15
The threads who has as a main topic the bad criticism abouth thief had good things too. You have to take a grain of salt along with the sugar. And there are no opposing corners around here, only people who can't stand others pass over their imaginative line. My ideas, and i suspect the idea of the others too, was to show that TDS had some very good ideas, and some very bad ideas, still, as a whole, was a good game. I do not find it normal for somebody to make a scene and bang it's head against a wall as long as there is a normal flux of dialogue.This topic might be merged with the one that has the bad things as main topic. Allso I like to remind people out here that arguing on the forums is like running in the "special" olympics: even if you win' you're still retarded. Allso, it makes you a jerk and a troll.
Now continuin with oppinions on TDS... :)

Corvin25
6th Jun 2009, 03:33
I'm sure somebody has mentioned this already, but...

On its own, Thief 3 was not a BAD game. It's just that it was so simplified and unsatisfying COMPARED TO the last 2 games. We had our hopes raised too high.

Let's pray that the same thing doesn't happen again.

Inspector Drept
6th Jun 2009, 03:54
I liked the fact that:

You could buy a false crown and swap it with the real one.
You could be walking in the city, see a house and decide to rob it.
Invading the opal bloodstone castle by fooling a servant.
Interact with the keepers at their library.
Wall-hug.
The cradle of course.
Inspector Drept - The coolest hammerite.
The little girl at the end. Closing the circle.

Necros
6th Jun 2009, 06:25
Things I liked about Thief Deadly Shadows-
1.Ambient Sounds/Music
2.Voice acting
3.Atmosphere
4.Level Design(with the exception of engine limitations/small areas)
5.Option of 1st and 3rd person views

HEAR MY PLEA DEVELOPERS, I LOVE THIEF DEADLY SHADOWS
:thumb: I love Thief 3 too. :cool:

I'm sure everything that I liked about the game (or most of it) has already been mentioned, so I'll only add this: I think it was a good sequel, I enjoyed it a lot, despite it's flaws. If Thief 4 will be at least this good, I'll be a happy taffer. But of course make it even better EM, if you can. :)

Flashart
6th Jun 2009, 12:51
I've just finished TDS for the 3rd time. I agree with most of the positive comments already posted.
For all it's positives and negatives TDS and it's devs and engine etc managed to produce "The Cradle" so when it worked TDS was as good a game as anyone could have expected. Overall, it wasn't consistently up to the first two games but I suspect all those concerned probably knew that on day 1 of TDS's release.