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Platinumoxicity
31st May 2009, 09:20
The end of TDS was a trap. An evil scheme to wipe Garrett from existence and to the history books. There's no logical reason why Garrett would be removed from the series. Stephen Russell is not dead and Garrett's not too old.

If Thief 4 started from the moment when Garrett inserts the last artifact in it's place, how would the story develop from there? To something much better, that's for sure, but what exactly?

If you are a traitor and you want absolute continuity from TDS, you only need to say::mad2:

My end and beginning:
Garrett activates the final glyph. The statues quietly slow down and crumble to the ground. The keepers' books are wiped clean. The sun is starting to shine on the highrise buildings as Garrett is walking to his other apartment in the edge of Down Towne. He goes to sleep and dreams of hist past. This starts a very familiar training mission. A familiar voice talks to him from a library balcony above: "Welcome, young Garrett..."

Jables_Kage
31st May 2009, 10:13
so you mean do a prequel? i dont like the idea of that!

Platinumoxicity
31st May 2009, 10:15
so you mean do a prequel? i dont like the idea of that!

No, a sequel with classic style, no little girl, no keeper magic stuff. Garrett and stealing. :)

Planescape
31st May 2009, 11:25
Yeah but what about little girl from the final movie in TDS? I fear that she may be a main character in Thief IV....Just watch the intro from the TDP and this movie....

HellionKal
31st May 2009, 12:05
Someone (whom I don't remember, but cheers to him/her anyway) posted in a thread a pretty nifty imaginary "continuing" of the TDS ending (that could also serve as part of Thi4f's intro movie), where Garrett, after grabbing the little girl at the end of TDS, simply gives her some money and takes off, ranting on about not wanting to train the girl because he doesn't want competition or something.

It's as simple as that to make up a story that doesn't turn that girl into his apprentice (and Garrett obsolete).

Platinumoxicity
31st May 2009, 12:49
Someone (whom I don't remember, but cheers to him/her anyway) posted in a thread a pretty nifty imaginary "continuing" of the TDS ending (that could also serve as part of Thi4f's intro movie), where Garrett, after grabbing the little girl at the end of TDS, simply gives her some money and takes off, ranting on about not wanting to train the girl because he doesn't want competition or something.

It's as simple as that to make up a story that doesn't turn that girl into his apprentice (and Garrett obsolete).

Or maybe Garrett, when taking her hand, tells her that he doesn't want to transfer his burdens and responsibilities to an innocent girl and then let's her go.

P.S Oh, it was me. :) I hate the end of TDS. You don't make a character as awesome as Garrett disappear by editing 30 seconds of badly drawn animation into the end cutscene. That's called lazyness.

imported_van_HellSing
31st May 2009, 13:28
This is ridiculous. The Deadly Shadows ending didn't exactly make Garrett disappear, did it? What's to stop them from making him the main character again?

Platinumoxicity
31st May 2009, 14:39
This is ridiculous. The Deadly Shadows ending didn't exactly make Garrett disappear, did it? What's to stop them from making him the main character again?

Well, EM can easily misunderstand Garrett's becoming the "true keeper" and change him. If they choose to go with the obvious, false idea, they are going to fundamentally change Garrett's character and that is the same as making Garrett disappear. His new status did not change him. It changed the City and the keepers. Also, including Garrett's "relationship" with the little girl as something more than just a "R i d d i c k/Jack(girl)" relationship, where the kid is an annoying hard-core fan of the selfish loner, is so completely against Garrett's character that EM might as well not call it Thief 4.

imported_van_HellSing
31st May 2009, 14:55
It's called "character development". And I wouldn't mind it.

WVI
31st May 2009, 14:56
If you are a traitor and you want absolute continuity from TDS, you only need to say::mad2:

Quit being a pompous little nut. The ending of DS(seriously, it's not TDS, why does everyone keep saying that?) still leaves plenty of room open. It's not Garrett's coffin. I swear. "Wah, the plot CAN'T continue from established facts in the previous games! That's just wrong!" It's not going to matter; we don't know a thing about the upcoming plot, so there's nothing to complain about yet.


You don't make a character as awesome as Garrett disappear by editing 30 seconds of badly drawn animation into the end cutscene. That's called lazyness.

Badly-drawn? Laziness? Wow. Get your head out of your ass, man.

imported_van_HellSing
31st May 2009, 15:01
DS(seriously, it's not TDS, why does everyone keep saying that?)

TDS = Thief: Deadly Shadows

Also known as T:DS, or Thief: Smiley Shadows

WVI
31st May 2009, 15:02
Ah. I ask because I've never seen anyone call the others TTDP or TTMA.

imported_van_HellSing
31st May 2009, 15:07
As I understand it, the T in both TDP and TMA stands for "Thief", not "The". The T for "The" is simply omitted. This does happen sometimes with acronyms, though I can't think of an example right now.

Avongardo
31st May 2009, 15:39
It's called "character development". And I wouldn't mind it.

Same here. I wouldn't really mind if the playable character would change. They could use Garrett as a central plot character. There are millions of ways.

Platinumoxicity
31st May 2009, 15:45
It's called "character development". And I wouldn't mind it.

Did Hitler's character develop to a more compassionate direction during WW2? I don't think so?
The most distinctive, subconcious-driven characteristics of well designed characters can not be changed while simultaneously keeping the person recognisable as the one you've come to know from experience. Garrett's eye was not a major character element. They changed it and it didn't make a big difference in him. Garrett's profession is a major element, and no-one would want change that because they'd be laughed out of the room. Garrett's cynical, lonely and selfish nature is 90% of the character himself and if you change that, you change the name, and face also. Anakin Skywalker --> Darth Vader

BTW, am I a troll if there are some who agree with my views? Does it take someone who irritates everyone to be a troll?

imported_van_HellSing
31st May 2009, 16:02
You aren't a troll, you're just silly ;).

As for Garrett's character development:

"Tell me."

The TDS ending is just one more step into that direction.

Herr_Garrett
31st May 2009, 18:53
BTW, am I a troll if there are some who agree with my views? Does it take someone who irritates everyone to be a troll?

I am with you in this question. I did that stuff about Garrett's character-development a while ago, in connexion with whether the City be the major -agonist of the games, but that is not imporant now... :)

DarthEnder
31st May 2009, 19:07
Did Hitler's character develop to a more compassionate direction during WW2? I don't think so? Wow. Did you just compare Garrett becoming the One True Keeper to Hilter?

Die please.

huzi73
31st May 2009, 20:36
The end of TDS was a trap. An evil scheme to wipe Garrett from existence and to the history books. There's no logical reason why Garrett would be removed from the series. Stephen Russell is not dead and Garrett's not too old.

If Thief 4 started from the moment when Garrett inserts the last artifact in it's place, how would the story develop from there? To something much better, that's for sure, but what exactly?

If you are a traitor and you want absolute continuity from TDS, you only need to say::mad2:

My end and beginning:
Garrett activates the final glyph. The statues quietly slow down and crumble to the ground. The keepers' books are wiped clean. The sun is starting to shine on the highrise buildings as Garrett is walking to his other apartment in the edge of Down Towne. He goes to sleep and dreams of hist past. This starts a very familiar training mission. A familiar voice talks to him from a library balcony above: "Welcome, young Garrett..."

Correct.Making a new chick the master thief is about as proposterous (typo..)as turning that jack chick into the new riddik

Zahr Dalsk
31st May 2009, 23:17
I say, just retcon the TDS ending right out. Maybe retcon all or most of TDS out. I hated how TDS gave away so much information, about the Keepers mainly. There are really only two things in TDS I liked; those were the Hammerites and the Cradle. The rest bothered me immensely. It took away a lot of the mystery of the series.

Platinumoxicity
31st May 2009, 23:29
Wow. Did you just compare Garrett becoming the One True Keeper to Hilter?

Die please.

Request denied.
How does Garrett's becoming the true keeper have anything to do with evil turning to good? More like cool turning to boring?
The Hitler comparison was just because I decided to deliberately underestimate everyone's intelligence by taking the most known evil example available. Garrett is evil, but a lot less evil than Hitler.

My point was:
Garrett taking an apprentice = Hitler saying "sorry".
Garrett taking an apprentice = Darth Vader giving christmas presents

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
31st May 2009, 23:35
I love the "gives little girl some change and leaves" idea. I hate when people bring up the whole 'apprentice' thing. Let it go. Garrett is Thief and Thief is Garrett. Done deal. Just give Garrett a new story. There's gotta be a bunch of things they can come up with.

Here's how Thief 4 starts out:

Garrett: Landlord says the rent is late....

There. That's how Thief 4 starts out. He needs rent and so winds up robbing some place and then some story unfolds. Tada. There has got to be a hundred things they can come up with after that line.

look at the Tenchu series, It always starts off with a "kill/punish the evil merchant" mission. There's no reason why Thief 4 can't start off as simple as needing rent and then they create any story they want featuring Garrett.

Vae
31st May 2009, 23:38
I say, just retcon the TDS ending right out. Maybe retcon all or most of TDS out. I hated how TDS gave away so much information, about the Keepers mainly. There are really only two things in TDS I liked; those were the Hammerites and the Cradle. The rest bothered me immensely. It took away a lot of the mystery of the series.

Yes. EM could make THIEF 3. Even though I enjoyed it to some degree, Deadly Shadows wasn't actually called T3. Maybe it was just a "fun for the kids" version of THIEF. EM should just go ahead now and make the TRUE THIEF 3. It could be called THIEF 3 "Sorry About Deadly Shadows". ;)

Herr_Garrett
1st Jun 2009, 06:00
Actually Thief could start with Garrett being in prison. Then you get a character creation screen, and then you are let free/miraculously encounter the Baron fleeing. And the story unfolds...

:scratch:

Platinumoxicity
1st Jun 2009, 08:03
Actually Thief could start with Garrett being in prison. Then you get a character creation screen, and then you are let free/miraculously encounter the Baron fleeing. And the story unfolds...

:scratch:

Char creation screen? Shirley* you can't be serious. That's the dumbest idea I've seen after weapon modifications and dynamic stealth skills.

*(surely)

Rachie
1st Jun 2009, 08:10
Maybe that little girl being there wasn't really like a "Garrett-passing-on-his-knowledge" kind of thing, maybe more of a closure. But if not, then I'm sure, with all the screaming fans, that they wouldn't have her as the main character. Maybe they'd do the whole alternate level for each character thing? Or like KH:COM did, with the different story lines for each character, but intertwined?

There are many possibilities.

Herr_Garrett
1st Jun 2009, 08:56
Char creation screen? Shirley* you can't be serious. That's the dumbest idea I've seen after weapon modifications and dynamic stealth skills.

*(surely)

... I wasn't serious. Have you ever heard of Elder Scrolls (specifically of Morrowind and Oblivion)? :D:rolleyes:

ToMegaTherion
1st Jun 2009, 09:30
I demand a face creator and the ability to name my thief Kickass The Magnificent.

Platinumoxicity
1st Jun 2009, 09:34
I demand a face creator and the ability to name my thief Kickass The Magnificent.

And there could be a text-to-speech generator that replaced words "Garrett" with "Taffyballs" or whatever you change your name to. A really bad text-to-speech generator. Like Microsoft Sam. :D

Hamadriyad
1st Jun 2009, 10:37
Hi everybody!I am new here.
TDS ending is very good in my opinion. And If I am not wrong TDS story belongs to Looking Glass and If EM decided to make Thief IV(not Thi4f) they should continue the story from there, no matter what.No prequel, no changing.
Sorry for bad English.

ToMegaTherion
1st Jun 2009, 11:21
I reckon that EM should revoke the endings of Dark Project and Metal Age, and the climax of Thiaf should be a rooftop showdown between the Trickster and Robo-Karras. Garrett should settle matters by picking up a rocket launcher and saying "I've wanted one of these since that first bloody trailer!"

Platinumoxicity
1st Jun 2009, 12:54
fill in the blanks!

-"Let go of me!"
-"That's not for you."
-"Please, sir. I'm hungry."
-"You have talent. It's no easy thing to see ___________ Especially one who dosn't wish to be seen."
_________________?

Yaphy
1st Jun 2009, 12:57
How good it would have been if thief IV starts with that clip, and at the end Garrett wakes up and it was just a nightmare!

Platinumoxicity
1st Jun 2009, 13:14
fill in the blanks!

-"Let go of me!"
-"That's not for you."
-"Please, sir. I'm hungry."
-"You have talent. It's no easy thing to see ___________ Especially one who dosn't wish to be seen."
_________________?

fill in the blanks, my choices

-"Let go of me!"
-"That's not for you."
-"Please, sir. I'm hungry."
-"You have talent. It's no easy thing to see a master thief. Especially one who dosn't wish to be seen."
-"Let me go, man"
-"Tell you what, I'll give you a choice. Either you choose to live the way you live now, or I'll take you to a different world, a world of darkness, danger, crime and hate."
-"No thanks, freak! Let me go or else I scream!"
-"Wise choice, kid. You're smarter than I ever was. Farewell."
-"Taffer."

Hamadriyad
1st Jun 2009, 17:32
How good it would have been if thief IV starts with that clip, and at the end Garrett wakes up and it was just a nightmare!

This idea is a nightmare, this thread is a nightmare. Garrett is a keeper now, One True Keeper, it had to be happen sooner or later so it happened.
You don't want to play Thief IV, you want to play same thing again and again and again for years and years and years.

Yaphy
1st Jun 2009, 18:24
This idea is a nightmare, this thread is a nightmare. Garrett is a keeper now, One True Keeper, it had to be happen sooner or later so it happened.
You don't want to play Thief IV, you want to play same thing again and again and again for years and years and years.

Wrong. Keeping Garrett isnt going to make the game like the other Thief games. Do you really think Thief 2 and Thief 3 is a copy of Thief 1?! Didnt thought so...

Hamadriyad
1st Jun 2009, 18:59
Wrong. Keeping Garrett isnt going to make the game like the other Thief games. Do you really think Thief 2 and Thief 3 is a copy of Thief 1?! Didnt thought so...
I guess you are right. I was angry while read it.
But I don't want a prequel or end changing. These are cheap ways. "we can't make it a real sequel so let's change."
And I am very excited because of TDS ending. What will happen, what is Garrett's path now etc.
If EM do a prequel or something this will be a disappointment for me indeed.

DarthEnder
1st Jun 2009, 19:33
Actually Thief could start with Garrett being in prison. Then you get a character creation screen, and then you are let free/miraculously encounter the Baron fleeing. And the story unfolds...It's be even more awesome if they already cut off one of his hands for being a thief and now he needs a mechanical hand. :p

Platinumoxicity
1st Jun 2009, 19:56
I guess you are right. I was angry while read it.
But I don't want a prequel or end changing. These are cheap ways. "we can't make it a real sequel so let's change."
And I am very excited because of TDS ending. What will happen, what is Garrett's path now etc.
If EM do a prequel or something this will be a disappointment for me indeed.

If you look at the "fill in the blanks" post, it's not changing the end.* It's only continuing the conversation between Garrett and the girl. Remember, they didn't finish it when the cutscene ended. ;) And I never mentioned a prequel. The time between Garrett's acolyte ritual and Bafford's manor is supposed to be one of the things that are never explained. It strengthens the impression of a mysterious past.

*Well I did change the word "keeper" to "thief" because I still don't believe that Garrett would ever call himself a "keeper" without being subjected to mindcrafting. He's a strong and stubborn mind, and a bunch of hooded pansies aren't gonna change that.

Hypevosa
1st Jun 2009, 20:15
Garrett could simply pass on his duties as a keeper to the little girl so that he could continue his job as a thief... would that not make sense?

It could also then open up plot where maybe she takes action against Garrett, seeing Garrett as too powerful and corrupting the balance. But that's me just imagining stuff.

Hamadriyad
1st Jun 2009, 20:19
*Well I did change the word "keeper" to "thief" because I still don't believe that Garrett would ever call himself a "keeper" without being subjected to mindcrafting. He's a strong and stubborn mind, and a bunch of hooded pansies aren't gonna change that.[/QUOTE]

You did change the word,you did change the end. Garrett call himself a keeper(and I like it)believe or not.
And I say again:TDS ending is very good, amazing in fact.Hopefully EM think so.

Platinumoxicity
1st Jun 2009, 20:21
Meh, I think Garrett has better things to do (The rent is due. :) ) than educating a random street urchin.
The line -"Wise choice, kid. You're smarter than I ever was. Farewell." could be a good one. It suits Garrett's "Idontcare" -attitude pretty well.

GmanPro
1st Jun 2009, 20:25
This idea is a nightmare, this thread is a nightmare. Garrett is a keeper now, One True Keeper, it had to be happen sooner or later so it happened.
You don't want to play Thief IV, you want to play same thing again and again and again for years and years and years.

If I wanted to play something different, I wouldn't play Thief 4.

DarthEnder
1st Jun 2009, 20:30
The more we talk about it, the more I want Thief 4 to take place between 2 and 3.

imported_van_HellSing
1st Jun 2009, 21:01
I reckon a random forumer should be hired to rewrite the ending of Thief 3, since we obviously all know better than Terri Brosius.

Hypevosa
1st Jun 2009, 21:04
from a trilogy story perspective, T3's ending really is a good one. It has irony, it comes full around back to the first game, and it's really not that bad. I think it's the differences between the first 2 games and TDS, combined with the love of Garrett, that really make nearly everyone want him back. Not that people think it's a horrible ending.

ToMegaTherion
1st Jun 2009, 22:17
The more we talk about it, the more I want Thief 4 to take place between 2 and 3.

While this isn't going to happen, it's not such a bad idea, because although Garrett's character progresses in the same direction in Deadly Shadows as it was going by the end of Metal Age, there is still a bit of a jump between the two, so there's some potential for filling in the gap. But it won't be done, almost surely.

Vae
1st Jun 2009, 22:53
fill in the blanks, my choices

-"Let go of me!"
-"That's not for you."
-"Please, sir. I'm hungry."
-"You have talent. It's no easy thing to see a master thief. Especially one who dosn't wish to be seen."
-"Let me go, man"
-"Tell you what, I'll give you a choice. Either you choose to live the way you live now, or I'll take you to a different world, a world of darkness, danger, crime and hate."
-"No thanks, freak! Let me go or else I scream!"
-"Wise choice, kid. You're smarter than I ever was. Farewell."
-"Taffer."

I like it. Let's hope at least in effect they do somthing like this.

Herr_Garrett
2nd Jun 2009, 08:39
Girl: Let go of me!

Garrett: That’s not for you.

Girl: Please, sir, I’m hungry...

Garrett: You have talent. It is no easy thing to... see a Keeper. Especially one who does not wish to be seen.

...

Garrett: Listen, gal. I've got an errand for you. Run along, and find some rope arrows for me, and a book with the title "Swimming for Dummies: Water is not you Enemy!". In return, you can have these invisible sticky gloves, and I promise I won't take you as my apprentice. Deal?

Girl: Leave me alone!

Garrett: As you wish. *sighs* Let's do it by the textbook: *in a sing-song voice* "If you've grown tired of how you live, then follow me, and I will show you a different way."

Girl: Bugger off, you stupid geezer, or I'll tell the Hammers!

Garrett having a flashback: Please sir, I'm hungry, don't tell the Hammers, I promise...
*Garrett is thwacked on the head by a stray mugger, gets partial amnesia, and when wakes up, doesn't remember anything since Karras's death*

...:rasp:

Vae
2nd Jun 2009, 09:09
Garrett: Listen, gal. I've got an errand for you. Run along, and find some rope arrows for me, and a book with the title "Swimming for Dummies: Water is not you Enemy!". In return, you can have these invisible sticky gloves, and I promise I won't take you as my apprentice. Deal?


Very Nice.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 09:17
Haha :lmao:

kaekaelyn
3rd Jun 2009, 06:14
The Keepers tried too hard to be balanced, so they ended up unraveling themselves. Garrett was the greatest Keeper all along because he was a neutral party who didn't give a damn about any particular faction. If he changed his personality because of his newfound responsibilities, he'd probably end up failing as the One True Keeper. It's his lack of compassion that made him right for the job. I get the feeling that being the One True Keeper doesn't pay much. He's gotta make a buck, and he's not going to give up the thing he's always been best at.

I don't see the end of DS changing much as far as Garrett's character is concerned. It's not that Garrett "became" this prophetic figure. It's that he always played that role, but now he is recognized. Sure, it might be difficult to create a storyline based around Garrett's life now that he is aware of being the One True Keeper, but it can be done if the writers have the right attitude about it.

That said, a fourth title featuring Garrett might still feel a little tacked-on because of the balanced nature of the 3 previous installments' stories. I have to admit that. Deadly Shadows wrapped up the whole Chaos vs. Order vs. Balance relationship so well that another installment with the same setting and the same main character could be contrived. BUT...

The thing is, though, when I first slipped in the CD and played The Dark Project, I realized that this wasn't your typical video game. It turned everything I thought I knew about gaming on its head. Garrett was there to lead me through it. His character, his voice, and his mysterious presence lended a personality to this new form of gaming. He carried me through it and made me feel involved. I understood his cynicism and his sarcasm, and laughed at his dry humor. His briefings made me feel a sense of purpose during the missions in a way that no other briefing in any other video game could do. Perhaps Thief is more than Garrett. It probably still would have been an incredible game without Garrett. But to have an outstanding main character like Garrett and then take him away? It'd be a sad downgrade, for certain. I missed the rope arrows in TDS, for sure, but that's nothing compared to how I'll miss Garrett if he isn't in Thief 4. It wouldn't feel the same without him, because he is the personification of Thief. I think that's what I mean to say with all this rambling. He represents everything that makes Thief special.

So it may be a little bit awkward to keep Garrett in Thief 4, but I say it's worth it. He's the charisma behind the series, and however good Thief 2x is, it can't hope to compare to the thrill I got when I played TDS and heard Stephen Russell's voice once again. "I got a tip last night from my fence, Heartless Perry." Please, keep Garrett if you possibly can. Get your professional writers to tie up the loose ends and make it believable.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 06:38
I don't think that Garrett needs to be running around maintaining balance. That's what the keepers attempted to do, and that's one of the reasons I believe they lost all their power. They were the ultimate imbalance due to the ultimate power they attempted to wield, and their destruction means that everything will equal itself out as is it's nature. If Garrett were to attempt to constantly maintain a balance, he'd follow the same folly as the keepers, which (as we all know) is a grave mistake. Acting as he normally would is enough to maintain the balance.

At least that's how I feel.

kaekaelyn
3rd Jun 2009, 06:46
That's what I meant to say, but I don't really have much of a way with words. Thanks!

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 06:55
Welcome.

Vae
3rd Jun 2009, 07:49
I missed the rope arrows in TDS, for sure, but that's nothing compared to how I'll miss Garrett if he isn't in Thief 4. It wouldn't feel the same without him, because he is the personification of Thief. I think that's what I mean to say with all this rambling. He represents everything that makes Thief special.


Yeah, taking Garrett out of the series would be like taking James Bond out of James Bond.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
3rd Jun 2009, 09:19
James Bond has been like what 5 different guys? At this point I want them to take the James Bond out of James Bond. The last 5 or so of those movies were terrible. I only want the one Garrett though, Stephen R. I don't want Garrett coming back with a Sean Connery voice or anything. I see what you're saying though, just really hate how crappy those movies have gotten.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 09:26
How come suddenly everyone has started to support my blasphemous insurgent ideas?

mister_riz
3rd Jun 2009, 09:41
IMHO the best way forward is to keep Garrett as the main character throughout, he IS the Thief series.

How to include the little girl? You do the training mission as her. That's it.

HellKittyDan
3rd Jun 2009, 09:59
All that stuff with Constantine and Karras, that was lame. Hopefully EM ignore all that crap and return to what makes Thief great.

Character progression? Hell no, dumb that s**t down man, cardboard cutout comic book characters is what the kids want. Cynical, world-weary badass Garrett would never have anything to do with an icky girl.

Odyseeos
3rd Jun 2009, 14:14
Well, EM can easily misunderstand Garrett's becoming the "true keeper" and change him. If they choose to go with the obvious, false idea, they are going to fundamentally change Garrett's character and that is the same as making Garrett disappear. His new status did not change him. It changed the City and the keepers. Also, including Garrett's "relationship" with the little girl as something more than just a "R i d d i c k/Jack(girl)" relationship, where the kid is an annoying hard-core fan of the selfish loner, is so completely against Garrett's character that EM might as well not call it Thief 4.

I don't see the little girl as a problem. There are a thousand things that could be done, interesting and not.

But how to deal with the light from the apokalyptic heavens is a problem. I can say, right off-hand, that scene removed the Player from any possible personal involvement, because the Makers didn't know what internal responses to such a (world-ending) physical experience ought consist of. It's the old narrative cop-out, "Master Lao knows what's what." "Master Garrett knows what's what, and your guess is as good as mine." No actual experience is contained in talking about it. You have to produce it, and that's tough to do when you go apokalyptic. Producing a pretty beam doesn't produce Garrett's experience. How now to identify with Garrett without that moment internalized, I have no idea-- unless maybe somebody wakes him up at the foot of the fountain: "The Old Woman made a mistake. There was nothing to the final glyph" or, "There is no final glyph, except that it knocked me out, made me dream" or, "You have to put stuff into a glyph to get anything out of it; and I didn't feel like putting anything into it." I dunno; it's a tough problem.

Well, heck, maybe T4 could have a quest to find out what the final glyph does besides produce unexplained light from elsewhere.

kaekaelyn
3rd Jun 2009, 14:35
No, HellKittyDan, that's just how I see the character. We disagree, obviously, but that doesn't mean I want to "dumb it down." The problem I perceive with letting Garrett be the main character once again is with where the storyline will go next, not whether or not Garrett would continue to be a thief. There's no doubt in my mind that he will. I don't think he's become a compassionate benefactor dedicated to keeping the City safe from warring factions. If you listen to Garrett in the end cutscene, he growls quite angrily, "That's not for you." He only softens when he realizes the girl reminds him of himself. Garrett's never been completely heartless, and sometimes I suspected that when he told us he was rescuing so and so or helping out such and such for a completely selfish reason, he actually was sort of lying to himself. So yeah, he's cynical and world-weary, but I think he was always capable of feeling. I don't think he's changed much as a character, and that's good, because that's exactly what the City needed in the first place, so if he changed, they might find themselves screwed.

I think that Garrett would take an apprentice, because that's what he appears to be doing at the end of TDS, so you can't deny that what Garrett does in the games is what Garrett "would" do. But that doesn't mean that we have to play as the girl. I think the intention of the writers was to show that Garrett has finally accepted that he is a Keeper...The Keeper, in fact. It was a great way to connect the end to the beginning, and I don't think that the developers were planning at that time to make Thief 4. But they're going to make it, so I do think it's workable without playing as the girl.

That said, I would play the game as the girl. I'm sure I would enjoy it. I would miss Garrett/Stephen Russell terribly, because like I said, he's the personification of everything that's different about Thief. But I would accept the girl. I would not accept switching back and forth between main characters (except, as previously suggested, maybe the training mission.) I would not accept co-op between the two characters or any of that sort of nonsense. Garrett is great, but he isn't worth cheesing up the game just to stick him in there. I know some people think that having him as a main character at all is cheesing up the game, but personally, I don't think it would be.

kaekaelyn
3rd Jun 2009, 14:37
I thought the glyph destroyed all other glyphs.

HellKittyDan
3rd Jun 2009, 15:19
No, HellKittyDan, that's just how I see the character. We disagree, obviously, but that doesn't mean I want to "dumb it down."

I have no idea why you think my post was directed at you, especially since I agree with most of what you have posted. My argument is against those who want to ignore or rewrite the ending because it doesn't fit in with their own personal vision of Garrett.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 16:04
I don't see the little girl as a problem. There are a thousand things that could be done, interesting and not.

But how to deal with the light from the apokalyptic heavens is a problem. I can say, right off-hand, that scene removed the Player from any possible personal involvement, because the Makers didn't know what internal responses to such a (world-ending) physical experience ought consist of. It's the old narrative cop-out, "Master Lao knows what's what." "Master Garrett knows what's what, and your guess is as good as mine." No actual experience is contained in talking about it. You have to produce it, and that's tough to do when you go apokalyptic. Producing a pretty beam doesn't produce Garrett's experience. How now to identify with Garrett without that moment internalized, I have no idea-- unless maybe somebody wakes him up at the foot of the fountain: "The Old Woman made a mistake. There was nothing to the final glyph" or, "There is no final glyph, except that it knocked me out, made me dream" or, "You have to put stuff into a glyph to get anything out of it; and I didn't feel like putting anything into it." I dunno; it's a tough problem.

Well, heck, maybe T4 could have a quest to find out what the final glyph does besides produce unexplained light from elsewhere.

I'm positive that you tried to make an interesting point there, but I didn't understand a word of what you said. :(

Odyseeos
3rd Jun 2009, 16:08
It's tough to know where to draw lines on a player's choices. If there is no line, the game turns into chaos; if it's too loosely drawn, there are no elegant discoveries available; if it's too sharply drawn, the player becomes part of the Makers' automaton, normally manifesting a Sadomasochistic relation between maker and player. The Player tries to satisfy the automatic move, the Maker tries to prevent him.

One possible idea would be to introduce a tale through the child (which would dismay a heck of a lot of people) but then leading to a sudden encounter with Garrett, and a subsequent choice of who proceeds with the action from there. But doing things for the sake of a game rather than an immersive narrative is also disconcerting-- bad s***. Beauty is in a gyve, I think.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 17:00
It's tough to know where to draw lines on a player's choices. If there is no line, the game turns into chaos; if it's too loosely drawn, there are no elegant discoveries available; if it's too sharply drawn, the player becomes part of the Makers' automaton, normally manifesting a Sadomasochistic relation between maker and player. The Player tries to satisfy the automatic move, the Maker tries to prevent him.

One possible idea would be to introduce a tale through the child (which would dismay a heck of a lot of people) but then leading to a sudden encounter with Garrett, and a subsequent choice of who proceeds with the action from there. But doing things for the sake of a game rather than an immersive narrative is also disconcerting-- bad s***. Beauty is in a gyve, I think.

So are you talking about the choice? The one that the keeper gave to Garrett in the beginning and what Garrett should give to the child? Or are you on the wrong thread?
And what's a "Maker" anyway?

My idea of the choice was that Garrett give the girl the same choice that he had, but the girl should decline, for contrast to the first game, where Garrett took the offer. Garrett could then say: "Wise choice, kid. You are smarter than I ever was."

I wasn't talking about a real choice in gameplay, but the rest of the conversation between Garrett and the child that was cut short in the end of TDS.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 18:55
I thought the glyph destroyed all other glyphs.

I believe you are correct, but I also think that Garrett has the power to recreate the glyphs.

Terr
3rd Jun 2009, 19:17
Garret was always the "True" keeper because he kept himself separate and balanced things reactively rather than proactively. The end of TDS simply formalizes and makes it explicit. Garret doesn't need to change how he acts.

The end of TDS was pretty good closure, in that it capped a chaos/order/balance series, tied back in to the very beginning for a cyclical flair, while leaving some room for future stories.

I can easily imagine cynical-but-trying-too-hard Garret using a "work-study" system with his apprentice: He gives lessons, gets a cut of the profits from the apprenticeship. Paying the rent being now relatively stable, Garret can sit back and focus on some truly interesting heists.

Garret may not really care about his young ward (whom is not named "Robin"). At any rate, he might but he won't admit it to anybody. Instead, it's a way to help pay the rent, to free himself up for interesting jobs and last but not least... Somebody he can throw all of the Prophecy/Keeper crap jobs to.. Garrett may not be superstitious, but he's seen enough and still isn't interested in "Destiny". Mentoring a potential successor gives him an escape clause.

"Yes, yes, it's written that the world will collapse in flames, but I've got a job tonight and you really ought to get some experience with that sort of stuff, so tell me how it went when you get back."

Herr_Garrett
3rd Jun 2009, 19:34
"Yes, yes, it's written that the world will collapse in flames, but I've got a job tonight and you really ought to get some experience with that sort of stuff, so tell me how it went when you get back."

That's a good one! So Garrett-ish, methinks.

GmanPro
3rd Jun 2009, 20:09
I believe you are correct, but I also think that Garrett has the power to recreate the glyphs.

Technically, no one knows for sure if the final glyph instilled any sort of powers into Garrett whatsoever.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 20:33
Technically, no one knows for sure if the final glyph instilled any sort of powers into Garrett whatsoever.

I have no reason to think that the final glyph did anything but wiped out all the keepers' powers completely. They didn't deserve them anyway.

"I'm not going to sit around doing nothing. That's your job." -Garrett

kaekaelyn
3rd Jun 2009, 20:39
Sorry, HellKittyDan, I misunderstood.