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MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 20:09
While there was a thread for enemies, I didn't see one for a full blown Villain for Thief 4. The previous games had some great villains in Constantine, Gamall and Karras, so who could be the villain in 4. Post your ideas here.

stoker
30th May 2009, 20:41
• King No-One (or similar), leader of the undead faction
• Gruleymar the Hatchlinger, leader of Kurshoks
• Long Bottoms, leader of Pirates
• Fey Weaver, leader of the Thieves Guild

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 20:45
• King No-One (or similar), leader of the undead faction

Kinda like the angle, but the name is God aweful. Perhaps Azaran the Cruel (http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Azaran_the_Cruel) returns from death as an undead sorcerer? (Commonly refered to as a Lich.) Necromancy is an established element of Thief from TG and TMA, after all.

HellionKal
30th May 2009, 20:48
The Baron, returning from the war and vying to "bring order to the city", in the meantime also working towards his secret agendas
Or the remaining Keepers, thinking up some mad power scheme in order to bring glyph magic back and make themselves the Bringers of "Balance" again.
Or, in the (extreme and abysmal!!!) chance that we have a different protagonist...Garrett.

Sharazito
30th May 2009, 21:59
I think that will be good that a woman is the antagonist... All the principal enemyes in thief have been men... They should put a woman, in my opinion will be great! What do you think?

crazy_bex
30th May 2009, 22:28
Im not exactly sure what the villain should be like, but I think they should be something competely different to whats already come before. And maybe the antagonist could be something totally unexpected? The character also should be a very strong character, which I think failed with Gamall as I didnt feel her character was distinct or strong enough. Karras was definately a good example of a strong, unique and distinct character.

GmanPro
30th May 2009, 22:29
I think that will be good that a woman is the antagonist... All the principal enemyes in thief have been men... They should put a woman, in my opinion will be great! What do you think?

Except that Gamall was a woman.

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 22:33
Gamall was a strong charecter to me because she was such an enigma. She was a shadowy manipulator, and Garrett didn't even recognize her as a threat until far later int he game. By then the duality of her identity was full force. She someone you have been aware of since Thief 2, but was not made aware of or even suspected her true and ghastly nature until the next game. By the same token, she was the City's version of the boogeyman, having been terrorizing it for centuries up until that point.

Thieffanman
30th May 2009, 22:56
A Keeper would make a good central villain, I think. I can easily imagine someone surviving the wrath of Gamall and destruction of the glyphs, and blaming it all solely on Garrett :).

--Thieffanman

Platinumoxicity
30th May 2009, 23:00
"Phobos", lord of Invertia Infrapolis, a city in the world's core, and the leader and hub-mind of the Unbeing, a darkness-dwelling alien race that the Hammerites accidentally awakened when mining for glowstone minerals in a combined power and mining facility beyond the Esse range. The bodies of the factory workers have never been found, the place has no plant or animal life, no humidity, and the temperature remains sub-zero around the year.
-A little too much eh? :)
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4980/unbeing.png

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 23:17
Put some thought into it, eh?

Platinumoxicity
30th May 2009, 23:23
Put some thought into it, eh?

It's an old idea. And an unimaginative and lame story. The only nice thing would be the Unbeing themselves as an enemy, with a combined, single mind and no footsteps.

stoker
30th May 2009, 23:28
"-A little too much eh? :)"
No. Does he make phobic? ;)
This creature (he, she, it?) is colored ~like keeper, curling ~like a treebeast. Nice guy. :thumb:

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 23:28
It's an old idea. And an unimaginative and lame story. The only nice thing would be the Unbeing themselves as an enemy, with a combined, single mind and no footsteps.

Yeah, they don't seem like they could carry a good mystery filled Thief story. Cool concept for enemies, though.

GmanPro
30th May 2009, 23:30
Gotta love enemies with a shared conscience. The many in System Shock 2, cranium rats in Planescape: Torment ... Always gloating about how much better they are than you. Perfect bad guys because I always start to feel a sense of pride in my individuality and a hatred for the "Hive Mind" advocates.

Platinumoxicity
30th May 2009, 23:33
It would be cool when a hive-minded enemy notices you or if you kill one, you hear this horrible scream echoing everywhere in the level when all of them start swarming to the crime scene. :)

GmanPro
30th May 2009, 23:39
The Keeper enforcers were kinda like that. Being able to communicate telepathically. Though I don't think their AI actually made use of this. Their voices just sounded funky is all.

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 23:40
A good exercise here is to think of what factions and organizations in the Thief universe have not featured a primary antagonist yet:

Mages
Necromancers
Kurshoks
City Watch
Nobility
Rival Criminals/City Wardens

Thought the Hammerites ahv enot had their own antagonist, Karras served as a "builder Religion" antagonist and wasn't included on my list. Anyone think of any others?


The Keeper enforcers were kinda like that. Being able to communicate telepathically. Though I don't think their AI actually made use of this. Their voices just sounded funky is all.

Yeah, the Enforcers were a big let down for me. Stupid voices, plus they were mass murdering thugs. I had stealthy and swift ninja like assassins in mind, not these guys.

GmanPro
30th May 2009, 23:43
Ramirez was good as a minor Noble Villain. There should be more of that kind of stuff.

Platinumoxicity
30th May 2009, 23:49
Quince and Jackow, the "mafia" hitmen could return also. Maybe not as primary enemies, but as high-ranking henchmen. I let them live in T1 after they tried to kill me, 'cause they were professionals too. Just trying to make a living. :) Their contractor Ramirez is dead though.

GmanPro
30th May 2009, 23:50
...He was much beloved by his Burricks

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 23:50
Yes, but I meant the thread to focus more on the game's primary antagonist, rather than sideline foes.


...He was much beloved by his Burricks

Wonder what happened to his "nasties?"

GmanPro
30th May 2009, 23:54
Interesting idea: What if the main antagonist isn't just one dude, but rather a collection of conspiring nobles ... ?

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 23:55
Interesting idea: What if the main antagonist isn't just one dude, but rather a collection of conspiring nobles ... ?

A single cabal of nobles?

...Interesting.

stoker
30th May 2009, 23:58
@ Master Taffer #18 (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1009410&postcount=18)
Plus artifacts, agree?
~
Enfos are very interesting, where they go after cataclysm (TDS)?
~
@ nobles
Around the tiny Rutherford saga is enough stuff maybe.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 00:00
@ Master Taffer #18 (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1009410&postcount=18)
Plus artifacts, agree?
~
Enfos are very interesting, where they go after cataclysm (TDS)?
~
@ nobles
Around the tiny Rutherford saga is enough stuff maybe.

Would you kindly flesh out your sentences a bit more ,as I'm having trouble comprehending your post.

GmanPro
31st May 2009, 00:01
Although, they'd probably be too busy trying to constantly backstab each other to bunker down and form a lasting alliance.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 00:02
Which is why they only have select members of this secret society. They don't let any noble in, just the ones they know they share a common goal with...

...The greater good.

Immano
31st May 2009, 00:04
Since we cannot attribute the fall of the precursor civilization to the Trickster nor to any other faction, I'd either try to have a similar danger recur, or conversely have some hidden-until-now descendants of the precursors conspire to bring the current city down and have the ancient one rise again on top of it. A sacrifice plot, if you will.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 00:06
Since we cannot attribute the fall of the precursor civilization to the Trickster nor to any other faction, I'd either try to have a similar danger recur, or conversely have some hidden-until-now descendants of the precursors conspire to bring the current city down and have the ancient one rise again on top of it. A sacrifice plot, if you will.

ANother banging idea. Hit the reset button and hope what comes out the other side is better.

Er, wait. That's basicly the plot to Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. Good idea, but it's been done.

stoker
31st May 2009, 00:35
Mages
Necromancers
Kurshoks
City Watch
Nobility
Rival Criminals/City Wardens
and artifacts



The Opal is what's important.

So quiet here tonight. Since Lord Warwick died there's no one left to talk to. My only friend! Why did you waste away staring at that abominable cursed stone! I'm certain there was some witchery involved.



The Rutherford Mortimer the Mad has no story, in return a picture.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 00:42
The Sentients were featured previlantly in Thief Deadly Shadows as the key to unlock the final glyph. I don't see them as an actually faction so much as a bunch of sentient rocks...

And I'm assuming that Mortimer the Mad is a descendant of the Rutherfords and is likely long dead.

Kayjin
31st May 2009, 00:50
I viewed the first three games as each having a villain in a major faction. In Dark Project it was the Pagans, then the Mechanists (Hammerites) in the Metal Age, and of course Gamall for the Keepers in Deadly Shadows. Though it wasn't really the Keepers themselves supporting Gamall, at least not knowingly. I wouldn't mind seeing someone(s) with some influence going after Garrett believing he has ultimate power over the glyphs after the ending of Deadly Shadows. Be it nobility, other thieves, the mages, or whatever. Besides, that could represent a more city-focused faction, seeing as the guards and nobles have only usually been pawns for the Mechanists or Pagans.

Thieffanman
31st May 2009, 03:05
A single cabal of nobles?

...Interesting.

It would make sense. Using TDS as a model, the seven noble families of TDS *would* stoop to assassinating a problem like Garrett, in addition to each other :).

--Thieffanman

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 03:18
It would make sense. Using TDS as a model, the seven noble families of TDS *would* stoop to assassinating a problem like Garrett, in addition to each other :).

--Thieffanman

Yes, but that approach to the "noble cabal" doesn't make for a game spanning and compelling antagonist group. Something better would be a group of nobles plotting to assassinate the Baron to gain his seat of power for dark and sinister motives would be better.

Yotun
31st May 2009, 04:59
I don't personally like, ancient magical villains and that sort of thing. I prefer human enemies, who use cunning, manipulation and deceit. I think such an enemy is much more interesting and much more fearful that the simplistic 'magical villain', because the latter usually comes to represent some sort of elemental force and thus his motives are very simplistic. Whereas a human enemy can have much more complex and cruel motives and can show that at the end of the day, the greatest possible force that can bring destruction is the human mind.

I much prefer human villains who are not simplistically 'evil' but have some sort of complex ideological backing to them.

In any case, I would very much like the main villain to be one of the nobles - a past general would be a good occupation The idea of the cabal of villains is a good one, but I'd prefer it if there was one enemy who came out to hold the strings of power a bit more than the others.

Also if they're designing the game to be the 'first' of a second trilogy, or an in between to a second trilogy, they may want to consider how possibly the villain can fit in with a wider story arc. I think in Dark Project for example, the world was designed in such a way as to make the rise of the mechanists a sensible development in the second game.

stoker
31st May 2009, 06:29
Humans use magic for their goal. The magic is bipolar.
Myth or fairy tale are telling this and more. Like a controlling power, but then the "thing" is one's own master and turn the tide.

acridrose
31st May 2009, 15:53
I much prefer human villains who are not simplistically 'evil' but have some sort of complex ideological backing to them.


A very "resident evil" kind of evil figure you speak of (Wesker :p), Yotun ... BUT I have to agree that important to a game's attraction is not only the protagonist but its antagonist--- (which is why I understand why Wesker comes to mind). I have to say though, human villains is a very approachable idea, and to further this, Id like them to be more than your average taffer like Ramirez and be someone you can be truly challenged by, mentally and physically (and now I can't help but bring Andrew Ryan to mind for some weird reason).

Herr_Garrett
31st May 2009, 18:48
I much prefer human villains who are not simplistically 'evil' but have some sort of complex ideological backing to them.


Adolf Karras

Gamall Stalin

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 18:50
Adolf Karras

Gamall Stalin

Benito Constantine...

Deadly Shadow
31st May 2009, 19:56
I think the keepers should turn against Garrett, in an effort to ensure the fulfillment of some sort of prophecy. Garrett should finally fight against all this prophecy nonsense and win; it would be the ultimate victory.

Just imagine having the keepers against you... That could be tricky.
And his new apprentice could always help him out, remain loyal to him while being a keeper.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2009, 20:09
I think the keepers should turn against Garrett, in an effort to ensure the fulfillment of some sort of prophecy. Garrett should finally fight against all this prophecy nonsense and win; it would be the ultimate victory.

Just imagine having the keepers against you... That could be tricky.
And his new apprentice could always help him out, remain loyal to him while being a keeper.

Problem with that idea is the ending of Deadly Shadows has eliminated the Keeper's means of reading any prophecies. The Final Glyph erased all glyph magic from the City. If they wish to continue to keep the City's balance, they'll have to find a more hands on means than before.

huzi73
31st May 2009, 21:31
The game did have a few minor antogonists.ramirez in tdp,sherrif truart in tma for example,i think the 4th game should focus on the precursors,the ancient civilisation from the lost city,and maybe the same great force which destroyed them along with their city could return,to affect the present city,also,the usual pagan vs hammer norm should exist,but remain as a sideline story,i hate the idea of having the undead as a faction/threat,thats about as dumb as giving benny his own kingdom.they fit perfectly as a minor threat,like a sickness,please dont make this into wrath of th4 lich king 2.the hammers havent had an actual leader figure under their own name,so theres potential right there.(karras was but an offshoot.)the mages?nobility?baron?i personally think the baron should remain unknown,a part of my imagination.making him show up is as absurd as giving us the builder in a physical form.Gamall was the worst antogonist in the history of gaming!

Deadly Shadow
1st Jun 2009, 18:55
It's obviously been too long since I've played Deadly Shadows.

Immano
2nd Jun 2009, 00:25
ANother banging idea. Hit the reset button and hope what comes out the other side is better.
Uh, no, doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

-Constantine-
2nd Jun 2009, 00:33
Garrett's cousin, back in the City after 20 years of high-life on the East Coast. He wants his money back, and will stop at nothing to get it.

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 00:41
Garrett's cousin, back in the City after 20 years of high-life on the East Coast. He wants his money back, and will stop at nothing to get it.

Why do I have this image of Garrett with a van dyke beard?

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 22:48
• King No-One (or similar), leader of the undead faction
Kinda like the angle, but the name is God aweful.He didn't make up the name. He's referring to one of the puppets in the Cradle. Specifically Patient No. 1, who engineered the riot and fire that killed everyone.


Perhaps Azaran the Cruel (http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Azaran_the_Cruel) returns from death as an undead sorcerer? (Commonly refered to as a Lich.) Necromancy is an established element of Thief from TG and TMA, after all.I'm actually 100% behind that idea. It's in my plot outline in the plot ideas thread. That a third god, The Reaper, was sealed away by glyphs, and when Garrett destroyed all the glyphs, that god was freed and his Necromancer worshippers try and take over the city just as the Pagans and the Mechanists did in T1 and T2.

I like the idea of King No-One being a major character. His readables make him sound so badass, but he's just another puppet in the cradle. With the Reaper free, maybe he rises again and regains some of his intellect.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2009, 23:23
-King No-One could be a ruthless serial killer who uses the darkness just like Garrett does and he has complicated psychological motives in his criminal actions.

-The Smith-in-Exile might not be dead afterall. Only hiding, afraid that the Eye is going to eventually find him.

-The Baron could come back from the war, somehow mysteriously changed, and he starts to run the City like a dictatorship, military patrols and martial law, censorship and public hangings for dissents and freedom fighters.

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 12:01
-King No-One could be a ruthless serial killer who uses the darkness just like Garrett does and he has complicated psychological motives in his criminal actions.

-The Smith-in-Exile might not be dead afterall. Only hiding, afraid that the Eye is going to eventually find him.

-The Baron could come back from the war, somehow mysteriously changed, and he starts to run the City like a dictatorship, military patrols and martial law, censorship and public hangings for dissents and freedom fighters.

SOme good ideas right there,I remember reading about the smith in exile,who is he again???:scratch:

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 12:05
SOme good ideas right there,I remember reading about the smith in exile,who is he again???:scratch:

He's the man who tried to warn the Hammerites about the Eye, but it was too late and the Eye destroyed the Old Quarter and it was left sealed off in ruin. He then left the City and wrote a collection of letters in that subject. He's not exactly a bad guy though. :scratch:

BoldEnglishman
3rd Jun 2009, 14:11
Well some people believe that he was trying to 'open the Eye up' and see what makes it tick, initating the Eye's self-defence and thus starting the whole Old Quarter catastrophe in the first place.

Aristofiles
3rd Jun 2009, 14:45
It would be cool if the new threat was some kind of secret brotherhood consisting of a few rich and powerful people who have contacts evrywere and a secret agenda. Somehow Gareths crosses thier path.... Gareth vs the Nobility..... Leaves great possibility for thiefing, sneaking, infiltrating and searching. Also it would be easy to keep a intresting story alive in the city (witch is were i think all thief gaming should take place)


I think its important that the new enemy shares the same "mystic" toutch as all the others have but at the same time goes somewere compleatly diffrent.

constantine was a god and so that rules that out .
gammal was a witch like thingy .
and Karass was a insane religious sect leader.

InGroove2
3rd Jun 2009, 15:30
Karras was unbelievably great (i cannot understand people who did not like that last level in Soulforge!)

i prefer that style of enemy as well... someone in charge of a fanatical religious sect...

maybe we can bring garret into our world and have him go after Jesus, you know, steal the cup-of-a-carpenter, turn wine BACK into water... seal him in his tomb. that kind of thing.

oHHH!!!! don't mean to start a war... just kidding.. completely NOT anti-jesus.... or anti-christ... and of course i'm not THE anti-christ...

sidebar: those who think that george bush (or any american president) was the anti christ... seems like a pretty low set of standards for being able to BECOME the anti christ. you know, he became president, and acted like a buffoon WHILE president... i think the anti-christ could do better than that. i didn't like him either, but... he's probably just a moron... as oppose to... you know... satan.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 16:07
Karras was unbelievably great (i cannot understand people who did not like that last level in Soulforge!)

i prefer that style of enemy as well... someone in charge of a fanatical religious sect...

maybe we can bring garret into our world and have him go after Jesus, you know, steal the cup-of-a-carpenter, turn wine BACK into water... seal him in his tomb. that kind of thing.

oHHH!!!! don't mean to start a war... just kidding.. completely NOT anti-jesus.... or anti-christ... and of course i'm not THE anti-christ...

sidebar: those who think that george bush (or any american president) was the anti christ... seems like a pretty low set of standards for being able to BECOME the anti christ. you know, he became president, and acted like a buffoon WHILE president... i think the anti-christ could do better than that. i didn't like him either, but... he's probably just a moron... as oppose to... you know... satan.

I don't think that you can start a war here with your political or religious ideals, but rather with your ridiculous suggestion of bringing Garrett to our world.

InGroove2
3rd Jun 2009, 16:16
I don't think that you can start a war here with your political or religious ideals, but rather with your ridiculous suggestion of bringing Garrett to our world.

you're right. i was serious about that, i REALLY think that garret should go after JC... assuming that JC was in OUR WORLD. :whistle:

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 17:11
you're right. i was serious about that, i REALLY think that garret should go after JC... assuming that JC was in OUR WORLD. :whistle:

You couln't be more right about JC there. :whistle:

BG_HHaunt
13th Jun 2009, 10:02
Well maybe a keeper that is finding some source of power and then trying to rule the city or a leader of a faction that is split from the pagans like in thief 2 the mechanists split from the hammers.
Or perhaps the Builder?

Herr_Garrett
13th Jun 2009, 10:44
How about having the Hammers strike a deal with the remaining Keepers? The Keepers, towards the end, were just as obsessed with 'order', instead of the Balance, as the Hammers. An ideal alliance. Some Keepers, however, would rather go with the Pagans, and once again, the Keepers are torn apart, with a small war ensuing, with active participation from the Hammers' and the Pagans' part. The Baron is returning with the remnants of his defeated army, with the Blackbrook-ians(?) on his heels, into the midst of the civil war. The City is laid to siege, the civil war continues, and since no-one has the time to bury the dead properly (either way), undead galore.

Suddenly up pops someone who promises certain victory to the Baron, if he - in this case, definitely not a she, seductive female antagonists are so cliché - could the full power of the City for but a little while. The Baron, in his desperation, agrees. The civil war is cruelly stamped out, almost both sides are obliterated, and those who survived (along with the rest of the populace) are herded into those shiny new factories where the new leader's gigantic warmachines are being built - war machines capable of destroying entire cities (no, not planets). Of course, the new leader promises that they'll be disabled and blahblahblah after the City is properly restored and its neighbours "pacified", but you know how it is. And suddenly the Baron dies, right after the first major victory from the City's part is scored. The new guy is but of course elected/appointed whatever to be the leader, in fact, the new Emperor of the City's would-be-empire.

Garrett, in the beginning, doesn't give a fig, but sooner or later he realises that this new Empire would seriously upset the Balance, the keeping of which, he grudgingly accepts, should be his duty. So he braces himself up, girdles his loin, etc., and ventures into the Emperor's complex one night...

I know that this is only a setting, but a goodly antagonist could be created out of that Emperor.

kabatta
13th Jun 2009, 10:54
With the keepers gone and the glyphs destroyed some other villains might show up. I don't think thet the sunken citadel and zombie infested cathedral were the only things sealed off by the keepers. Maybe an exotic part of the maw exists somewhere under the city, or a necromancer escapes his prison. What if this would be an excuse to bring back burricks? :D

Hamadriyad
16th Jun 2009, 18:03
All antagonists in Thief are different and not pure bad, pitch black. Trickster' s purpose was to rescue the world actually. He was believing Hammerites' innovations was dangerous. And Karras was prove it. Opposite of Trickster. He was believing machines will lead to the new world.
And the Hag, she was little different. She had no such big purposes. She wanted to live forever.(she wanted it sooo much.:))
At least these are my observations, maybe I am wrong. But I believe they are not pure bad, and Thief IV antagonist should be this way.
Thanks for reading.:p

kaekaelyn
16th Jun 2009, 18:12
I agree with you about the Trickster sort of, but I dunno, I'd say that Karras was just insane more than anything. As for the Hag, I'd say she's about as close to "pure bad" as you can get. But yeah, I think Thief 4 needs a really interesting antagonist, maybe even one more mysterious than Constantine.

Hamadriyad
16th Jun 2009, 18:23
Karras was insane, no doubt. But he has own purposes and own rights in his twisted mind.
Mysterious than Constantine? It would be great indeed.(but he/she should not be an ancient god/creature in my opinion. But mysterious, exactly!) For the Hag, yes she was close indeed.:)

Wolkenwolf
16th Jun 2009, 18:33
I actually would like the thief4 antagonist to be a thief, too.
Like almost as clever as our Garrett, setting us traps and stuff while we proceed in the game.

kaekaelyn
16th Jun 2009, 18:34
Yeah, that's what I mean about Karras. He was somehow insane enough to think that killing everyone was for the greater good...weird.

Platinumoxicity
16th Jun 2009, 18:39
How about another master thief? A character who is almost as good as Garrett, but working for corrupt City officials, who are using the thief's talents to destroy the economies of other influential persons in the City in order to achieve centered power over the City.

Pretty lame plot though...


I actually would like the thief4 antagonist to be a thief, too.
Like almost as clever as our Garrett, setting us traps and stuff while we proceed in the game.

Read my thoughts there, buddy.

Wolkenwolf
16th Jun 2009, 18:48
How about another master thief? A character who is almost as good as Garrett, but working for corrupt City officials, who are using the thief's talents to destroy the economies of other influential persons in the City in order to achieve centered power over the City.


Well, a good plot could probably be that this mysterious thief steals exactly THE masterpiece loot, like the Baron's golden crown or his juwels, then a chasing begins as you follow his path to get back the (YOUR) loot.

MasterTaffer
16th Jun 2009, 19:03
The theme of all three antagonists is the folly of arrogant pride.

Hamadriyad
16th Jun 2009, 20:02
I actually would like the thief4 antagonist to be a thief, too.
Like almost as clever as our Garrett, setting us traps and stuff while we proceed in the game.

Like mirror match in mortal kombat.No thanks,I'll pass. I don't like the idea talented thief as Garrett. There is no such a thing!

Hamadriyad
17th Jun 2009, 09:51
The theme of all three antagonists is the folly of arrogant pride.

And obsession.

esme
17th Jun 2009, 10:54
And obsession.

that must be why the guards all start saying "what's that smell .... it's like rotting meat" every time Garrett is nearby :D

personally I always thought obsession smelled like fly spray .... or was that ckOne .... one of them anyway

Platinumoxicity
17th Jun 2009, 11:24
"The folly of arrogant pride" is not the "theme" of the series' antagonists, it's the reason why Garrett is able to outsmart them. They're not afraid of a petty thief, and that's why they fail. Remember what Constantine said in his diary? He felt that the world was losing it's imagination when electric lights and technology were taking away the fear of the dark in people. He wanted to bring back the natural order of things and he wasn't viewing himself as a ruthless dictator or destroyer of worlds. He though that he was doing the right thing. He wanted nature to take control again.

Karras was the same. Although he was indeed psychotic, writing new scriptures and Builder's word according to his own delusions, but he thought that the Builder had given the world technology to replace flesh and wood. He didn't see anything wrong with his mad plans. He wanted nature to stand aside and let technology take over.

Gamall is the only one of the antagonists who truly wanted to rule the world for her selfish needs. She wanted to be immortal and ultra powerful, and wanted the world to bow before her.

So the themes of the antagonists have been so far "corrupt morals" and "megalomania". Their folly has been arrogant pride.

Tushaar
17th Jun 2009, 11:52
A rogue keeper who survived from Thief 3? :P

Platinumoxicity
17th Jun 2009, 12:22
A rogue keeper who survived from Thief 3? :P

Whaddya mean? The keepers didn't die because their writings and magics vanished. The just became a little more normal.

Nothke
17th Jun 2009, 16:46
-Constantine was clever and dark, an evil incarnat, and a trickster in its real sense (can be compared to Darth Sidious)
-Carras was a lunatic, a sociopath, and they say that border between genious and craziness is very thin, so he was much more on the second side (can be compared to the Joker from Batman, or maybe any supervillain from older James Bond films).
-Hag had a desire to become inmortal by the use of glyphs, and the only antagonist that was actually working for herself and not for an "perfect society" , a victory of a particular faction."

trysil
21st Jun 2009, 20:25
Both the Hammerites and the Pagans got severly wounded in the fight against the Hag (who doesn't remember the street fighting in TDS?) . The Keepers are more or less out of the game leaving a huge power vacum in the City. How does the world react to power vacums? Someone tries to take over. I myself see a cabal of nobles (or any other secret society) trying to destroy the remnants of the pagan, hammerite and keeper power within the city and our hero is caught in the middle.

TheEye
4th Jul 2009, 11:06
maybe some ruler from the other cities who wants to take over this one and do it with the help of the pagans( you remember one of the other towns liked the pagans, right?); or possibly a rise of the undead by some necromancer - there was one i TMA

esme
4th Jul 2009, 12:23
the spider queen sends her children to take over the world, one for the arachnophobes :D

gryphos
8th Jul 2009, 22:53
I've stated it elsewhere, but again, the Pagans, Hammers, and Keepers have all been dealt with, leaving the Nobles (who may also include City Wardens) as the one consistently present element to ascend to the place of antagonist. A cabal of gangster nobles (like some great Mafia alliance) seeking to usurp the Baron's place now that the other factions are out of the way is a shoe in for an antagonist. If they are smart, they can put forward necromancers, the downwinders, ex-mechanist screwballs, pagan groupies, and disgruntled Keepers (OK, maybe not them) as red herrings while they do their plotting.

[PT] Garret [PT]
10th Jul 2009, 15:04
Kinda like the angle, but the name is God aweful. Perhaps Azaran the Cruel (http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Azaran_the_Cruel) returns from death as an undead sorcerer? (Commonly refered to as a Lich.) Necromancy is an established element of Thief from TG and TMA, after all.

agree and he is turning people into undead

KaiserJohan
10th Jul 2009, 20:08
I'd put my money on the Eye. The Eye also spoke to garrett just before the end of T3, saying it would return for him someday.

Now make the story based on the Eye alone. We know the Eye is able to move itself even, and to resurrect undead and manipulate humans.

I'd say a plot focused mainly on the Eye trying to destroy the city and impose chaos by influencing, say, nobles to cruel acts, etc. This would make for a very special antagonist, as it's no creature you can kill och directly fear, but rather an object which looks unimposing but is capable of so much. It's abit like some horror movie, which would fit the Thief theme very well too. They could also try to hide who is the real antagonist as much as possible before the end.

But best of all, it wouldn't give us some lame finishing showdown with the antagonist.

kabatta
10th Jul 2009, 20:11
One mechanical eye is enough. No need for the sentient to come for the other one.

Platinumoxicity
10th Jul 2009, 20:48
I'd put my money on the Eye. The Eye also spoke to garrett just before the end of T3, saying it would return for him someday.


The Eye was just messing with Garrett. It likes to influence and observe, and it's doing everything it can to get some sort of reaction from Garrett, but Garrett never answers when it speaks.

kabatta
10th Jul 2009, 21:03
Obviously, yes. But some laughs can be squeezed out of it.

citywolfdreams
14th Jul 2009, 23:01
I don't personally like, ancient magical villains and that sort of thing. I prefer human enemies, who use cunning, manipulation and deceit. I think such an enemy is much more interesting and much more fearful that the simplistic 'magical villain', because the latter usually comes to represent some sort of elemental force and thus his motives are very simplistic. Whereas a human enemy can have much more complex and cruel motives and can show that at the end of the day, the greatest possible force that can bring destruction is the human mind.

I much prefer human villains who are not simplistically 'evil' but have some sort of complex ideological backing to them.

In any case, I would very much like the main villain to be one of the nobles - a past general would be a good occupation The idea of the cabal of villains is a good one, but I'd prefer it if there was one enemy who came out to hold the strings of power a bit more than the others.

Also if they're designing the game to be the 'first' of a second trilogy, or an in between to a second trilogy, they may want to consider how possibly the villain can fit in with a wider story arc. I think in Dark Project for example, the world was designed in such a way as to make the rise of the mechanists a sensible development in the second game.

I agree with this entirely, even though I believe that the major villain should be the necromancer. However, what I am hoping for is that as they flesh out the Necromancer Azarath that they reveal more complex and sympathetic motives than just a lust for power. For example, perhaps the reason he wants to conquer death is so that nobody else ever has to die (perhaps due to a personal tragedy). Of course, this twisted view means that he wants to turn everyone in the City into undead, because he genuinely perceives of this as being a "gift."

Of course, you're right about character being the most important thing - if they go for him simply being a "power-hungry villain" then this would really suck.

citywolfdreams
14th Jul 2009, 23:06
Another thought - Yotun's "nobleman villain" idea got me thinking. Perhaps a populist who wants to take over the city in the guise of turning it into a democracy? After all, the Baron is away, and the concept of "power to the people" has always had broad appeal.

It could even be a group of nobles, with some of them having genuine interest in freedom for the masses (the equivalent of Lenin during the Russian revolution) while others follow more of the Stalin archetype, using this ideal simply to rise to power. Of course, much like in the Russian Revolution, the Stalins would eventually try to eliminate the Lenins and get the upper hand.

Zavier41
17th Aug 2009, 21:59
As others have stated before, the Pagans, Hammerites and Keepers have all had their antagonist, now it is time for the third parties to have one. Be it the Nobles, the Baron, a Necromancer(s), or oneside based off of the animals of the world (Burricks and Spiders galore, trying to erase all humanity to return the world back into what it was before Humans!) I don't particularly care what SIDE they are on, so long as the character is well developed and scary on one level or another.

What I was thinking was perhaps a tactical/observant/genius that could piece together the most obscure of facts and come to the proper conclusions. (If anyone has read the StarWars Thrawn Trilogy (Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising and The Last Command) I'm thinking of someone like Grand Admiral Thrawn.) I'm thinking that no matter how perfect the Thieving was on the part of the protagonist, the antagonist can break apart, analyze and determine how and why the thieving was done, and what the thief’s next few steps will be and set up a trap in the future at the protagonists next mark. Scary, almost Prophetic abilities of deduction and observation. King No-One, could fit this mold, because he had scary abilities and intellect like this. And some faction of Nobles could easily have a leader, or one amongst its ranks, with abilities like this, like a former General I think someone mentioned. The Baron or one of his returning generals could also have the same ability. The reason I hint that the Top antagonist not be like this, is because I would like to see them (the top bad guy) kept in the shadows for as long as possible, and you have to deal with the Tactical genius from early on (like sheriff Truart).

All the while, whatever goal the antagonist has in mind needs to be FOR THE GREATER GOOD, as far as they are concerned. Total destruction, mass culling of residents or the creation of a new world order are all great means to an end (if you’re a psychopath).

Interesting point, the artifacts were created by the Keepers of old, as a fail-safe, if the keeper order became corrupted, which it had, both with Gamall, and with how 'Unbalanced' First Keeper Orland had become. And unless I am mistaken, I think the Artifacts were created by placing the will/being of a keeper into it. The Eye was the only artifact that had been able to develop this will and express it outwardly. It seems that the Burrick's Heart (I think that was what it was called) was also close to being able to let its will be known, what with how the Former Noble owner, withered away and died due to obsessive observation.
-Z41-

Vae
18th Aug 2009, 02:20
Yeah, Z41 nice post...:thumb:


The Eye was just messing with Garrett. It likes to influence and observe, and it's doing everything it can to get some sort of reaction from Garrett, but Garrett never answers when it speaks.

So are you saying the Eye is a troll?...:rolleyes:

darkmagicasorseer
22nd Aug 2009, 17:15
The ruler of the city, the King himself wants Garrett gone for good, and he have dispatched his best samurai(s) to kill the master thief.

Love it or Hate it... Discuss...

PlumsieTaker
22nd Aug 2009, 17:36
The ruler of the city, the King himself wants Garrett gone for good, and he have dispatched his best samurai(s) to kill the master thief.

Love it or Hate it... Discuss...

I had an idea loosely based like this, albeit more detailed with Thief canon.

The Baron has returned from the war with Blackbrook (Not much, if not anything is mentioned about it in TDS?) and is appalled with the ineffectiveness of the City Watch, he decides to clamp down on crime in The City with an iron fist. Becoming ruthless with criminals, much like Truat-era City Watch, however it because more state run. Military in the streets to help reinforce the Watch's presence and help weed out thieves and other taffers up to no good. Thieves are sent to an installation a lot more fortified than Cragscleft or Pavelock. And being true to reputation, Garrett is at the top of the most wanted list. But like with every Thief, something a lot more sinister is at foot.

Something I had thought of a year or so ago, didn't want it to get too complicated.

Ikana
27th Aug 2009, 03:16
Another enemy thief stealing Garretts spotlight/loot

It would be nice to see a thief in the beginning steal from Garrett, and have Garrett track him down.. For a tutorial kind of mission.. leading you along.. and then he escapes.. and Garrett pursues after him the remainder of the game, or Garrett discovers he is part of an underground thieves guild.. that has a kill and destroy policy or something..

And at some point they steal something crucial to the story.. So Garrett must steal it back.. IDK..

Davehall380
27th Aug 2009, 12:10
ACT 1 always had him ruining some powerful persons' or group's plans/lives that was important to what happens in the story and trained the player in the basics
ACT 2 introduced the major characters, increased the momentum and put Garrett past many points of no return, including the one that made it very hard to walk away, though that was an option he still could've chosen.
ACT 3 introduced the true villain, his/her true plans, locked Garrett into finishing what he helped start, brought in any last meaningful characters, and brought in the final means to end the villains' plans.

Brilliantly done! As argued, this plot structure is tried and tested in Thief. Act 2 for me always seemed to invovle prophecy and the keepers in some way (warning, pushing, helping etc) with possible exception of TDP, where this comes after escape!.

Now the keepers are gone, will the storyline follow the tried and tested path of plot line or will it try something else (for me the momentum in TDS was ruined by the city sections).

matdmcc2
28th Aug 2009, 15:10
Another enemy thief stealing Garretts spotlight/loot

It would be nice to see a thief in the beginning steal from Garrett, and have Garrett track him down.. For a tutorial kind of mission.. leading you along.. and then he escapes.. and Garrett pursues after him the remainder of the game, or Garrett discovers he is part of an underground thieves guild.. that has a kill and destroy policy or something..

And at some point they steal something crucial to the story.. So Garrett must steal it back.. IDK..


Honestly when I read that I kinda had the thought of an Ocean's 12 sort of plot. Maybe someone has something over Garrett and to placate them, or perhaps have some incriminating something returned, Garrett has a certain amount of time to steal certain objects or all hell breaks lose:scratch: I dunno, feel free to rip it apart like a T-rex on a goat

Rieknor
15th Apr 2010, 03:13
I think it will be interesting if all the bad guys shows up in someway to give Garret more complications but also some kind of help to destroid a powerfull enemy.

The Trickster, The Builder(aint a "bad guy" for me, but he has to show him self), if you people wants, Karras too, and Gamall.


I got, a question, who think the Hammers are, infact, bad guys??

zhunt
15th Apr 2010, 04:54
ok, a dreadful idea for a game as u will see but im thinking of some sort of split personality thing going on with garrett, much like edward norton and brad pitt in "fight club", hehehe. garrett trying to discover whos behind stuff and why only to find out its his own split personality. having him fight himself like edward norton in the movie just cracks me up, hehehe, and would make for a great cutscene with garrett on the shrinks couch being analysed by benny the therapist! heheheh.

esme
15th Apr 2010, 11:06
I think it will be interesting if all the bad guys shows up in someway to give Garret more complications but also some kind of help to destroid a powerfull enemy.

The Trickster, The Builder(aint a "bad guy" for me, but he has to show him self), if you people wants, Karras too, and Gamall.


I got, a question, who think the Hammers are, infact, bad guys??

so it's batman versus the penguin, the joker, the riddler and catwoman then ?

or are they all on the same side and fighting poison ivy and bane ?

Yaphy
15th Apr 2010, 13:21
It would be awsome if The Builder somehow showed up to be pure evil and the hammerites think that their salvation is near but instead must face the truth that the builder want's to destroy the world.

Vae
15th Apr 2010, 21:17
:hmm:...That would be a surprise.

Actually, I would classify the Builders alignment as Lawful Neutral...;)

Neb
15th Apr 2010, 22:51
I quite like the fact that in a world where all sorts of crazy, mystical, and outright strange things happen, there's no good reason to believe The Builder even exists. Nice to keep it that way.

Platinumoxicity
16th Apr 2010, 09:49
I quite like the fact that in a world where all sorts of crazy, mystical, and outright strange things happen, there's no good reason to believe The Builder even exists. Nice to keep it that way.

That's what keeps it all interesting, and keeps the Hammerites the way they've always been viewed. A bit crazy. :D The Eye has a natural magical ability to raise the dead and talk telepathically. It has nothing to do with "blessings from a god" -it just does it. Just like most likely the necromancers simply know how to exploit natural magic to raise the dead and there's no higher power. The Hammerites' blessings come from some strange ehtereal radiation from the stars (RTtC - Lunar pool) and all the Builder is is words on paper. The pagans use the same magic to make plants grow and the Mages use it to call forth the elements in their powerful base forms.

I think the Hammerites are the only dumb ones in that sense. Because they have the same magic that everyone else has, but they've got it's meaning all backwards and think they're special. :D

Offtopicplz

Oh! A funny theory that just occurred to me when I was writing this... The Hammerites' "blessings" come from something like "the Lunar Pool" that induces the magic into the water making it "holy water". Then... remember the collector towers? That create electricity from thin air? Maybe they're the same. Both take power from nothingness and change it to specific forms. The Hammerites might have failed to understand the parallel even though they probably designed the collector towers, because their holy texts say that the water is being blessed by the Builder.

it r tyme 2 die
18th Apr 2010, 02:07
Maybe just maybe, the antagonist should be good. For example the Baron or some othersuch figure, is setting up a full on police-state dictatorship in the city. And being a criminal that makes profit has become extremely hard. But this dictatoriship isn't necessarily bad, crime is down, unemployment is down, hunger is down and people are generally happy. But Garret cant be having no profit, so he puts a wrench in the cogs of the dictatorship and joins some rebels, possibly pagans, and tries to bring the city dictator to his knees.
I dont know if I really like it, but it would be interesting, Garret being shown in all his immorality and selfishness.

oO_ShadowFox_Oo
18th Apr 2010, 06:11
I'm not sure how much it's been discussed on here (or TTLG) but the villain in this game should be the embodiment of a conquering army that has defeated the City's armies at some far away, crucial military battle and has now followed the smell of blood left by the remnants of its forces to bring the war to the gates of the City.

Whether it's some religious zealot who's manipulating the opposing forces and believe that technology is a curse upon this world and the work of their anti-deity or power hungry conqueror who has long had his eye upon the City as the next step in the expansion of his empire or whatever crazy reason, I really feel that it's time that we see the City in a different light.

The first 3 games were all about the City internally tearing itself apart as each faction struggled with their balance of power and ultimately came out the worse from it, with Garrett being the reluctantly influencing and dexterous hand that accommodated each event. I think it would be a bit too clichéd to have a 4th faction that steps up out of the shadows of the City to try and take the reigns of power after the other three have lost their way.

Rather it would be much more interesting to see the City as a whole under threat from an external and unfamiliar source of power. Instead of tearing itself apart it would be forced to congeal together in its time of weakness What flavor this faction could take could be extremely interesting as it could borrow from a whole host of external Asian/Middle Eastern or similar influences, as a direct contrast to the Western dominated feel of the City. (A bit too obvious making them Eastern maybe?)

But the foreshadowing of war and the siege of the City would most definitely make for an interesting Thief setting in my personal and humble opinion.

Martial Law, espionage, looting, allegiances traded for ample coin from the war chest, nobility fleeing for the countryside, the remnants of the Keepers doing their best to maintain neutrality, plebs confused and misinformed, gossip and rumor rife around the City and of course a situation requiring a reluctantly influencing and dexterous hand to ease it to it's conclusion. What's not to like?

And of course the City and it's hierarchy can always use those with a certain set of skills that are capable of sneaking past a siege blockade to acquire certain items or intelligence vital to the cause :thumb:

9darksoul6
22nd Apr 2010, 18:09
Note: In my opinion, the villains shouldn't be old characters (it just gives the feeling you're being lazy).
1- Another thief wouldn't be a bad ideia. There's really much plot you can explore with a nemesis/competition concept, and it would give another meaning to some levels: you aren't stealing something because someone told you to, but, for instance, you're stealing it because you don't want that thing to go to the wrong hands. If you think about it, it makes sense.
2- A grotesque-supernatural-monster, being the master pupeteer behind an evil plan.
3- Some faction-leader bad guys.

Platinumoxicity
22nd Apr 2010, 18:32
How about an invisible entity, some sort of a legend of an ancient evil? All the factions and people in the city would start acting upon a possilbe danger, and strange coincindences would strenghten their belief on the matter which would lead to mass panic, paranoia and chaos. Ultimately it would turn out that (sorry about the stand-alone-complex reference again) the invisible entity isn't real afterall, and all the violence would simply have been exponentially increasing mass hysteria. "Sometimes it's the smallest leak that can make the biggest difference." -as Garrett once said.

But some opportunistic faction would exploit the spreading rumors and rise to power, like some false saviors that want the people of the City to trade their freedom and privacy to the false promise of "security".

Narrows
23rd Apr 2010, 08:05
Despite the fact that my english is quite poor, I'd like to speak a bit about the way I see Vilains in Thief4.

In my opinion, vilains that you spoke of in the previous posts are really good but in order to add "something" (like pepper upon delicious steack) to the scenario it would be great if the girl that we saw in TDS wanna betray Garrett, in the very end, like stabbing him in the back badly, whereas Garrett was just thinking the evil one was dead or disactivated (depends of the vilain).

I like the idea that this girl who is going to be very silly/useless in the mind of tons of players just do something extra and has a great role to play on the 4th game.
With the same idea, Garrett could chase the one he considered as his own daughter because she just slaughtered half of the city (or something). I know it could look like something we just have seen, but with the very ambiance that surround the main character and his psychology very stong, betrayal, love and vengeance points just appears to be main points in Thief Universe. (as we saw in the previous games)

Vae
23rd Apr 2010, 08:41
No...good...sorry...about...your...first...post....:(

Narrows
23rd Apr 2010, 16:12
Maybe I missed something, but we still can't be sure of what the devs are going to do about her. It would be foolish as i've read in an other post to simply erase of our mind the final cinematic of TDS.
I do not like this child either. In fact I do not like children after all.
But, with that cinematic in mind, we have to suppose that we will face that child and maybe (That's hard to write this :()play through her point of view.

As far as I'm concerned I want to live a very good story, like others (TDS include) and I do not want the girl to be in the game only beacause she was there in the cinematic. I want a very well drawn character with strong mind (as her mentor). I suppose this would be definately too nice in the Thief world if everything in the story was OK and very happy... Etc. Exemple : How could both Garrett and his servant go through the entire game without taking any strike or injury (physical or related to mind) ?
I do not like the idea of a very precise vilain from point A to point Z in the game, that's definitely to simple, every powerful man drag with him some servants, and in many case the real master is not what it seems. (Or something's hidden behind)

As I said, maybe I missed something about "the girl", so you would be gentle if you could tell me what the hell it is !

Yaphy
23rd Apr 2010, 21:27
There isn't anything you missed. It's just that people here see it in another way. The thing that happend to "the girl" in the end of TDS is the same thing that happend to Garrett in the begining of his "career". It could've been just a way to complete the circle. Garrett just said the same thing that was told to him because he found it suitable under the cercumstances. After all, we didn't see him take "the girl" with him. He could've just walked past her after that cutscene and "the girl" stood there and though -" What was that all about. Crazy old man."

After TDS the glyphs are destroyed or whatever. There might be some sort of chaos in The City and things get out of hands for The City Watch. They go back to beeing corrupt like in Thief 1 and 2. It's more "everyone-is-on-their-own-feeling".
The Pagans leave The City and return to the outbacks and forests.
The Hammerites sees it as a sign. "The end is nigh". They begin to search for a way to salvation and finds old scripts about opening a portal to the builder.
This could be what the game is about. The Hammerites become real fanatics and makes crazy things to fulfill themself. The Pagans might want to stop the Hammerites because they are trying to change the way the world goes. After order comes chaos. It's the way of life, The Pagans doesn't like the way the Hammers disobay that rule and want's them to meet their doom together with the rest of the City-manfools.
The Pagans want to resurrect The Trickster with some old fasion pagan way so that he can continue his first plan and in the meantime destroy The City and The Hammers with it.
The Hammers build the giantic building with mecanics to power the massive portal. But in the end they somehow got the scripts all wrong and it shows up to be a warning from previouse ages that built the portal, and they warn the Hammers not to do it for some reason (help please?). But it is to late (Help again?).
Somehow Garrett is the one to help the world once again. And he destroys the portal and...whatever came out from it.

I dont know how to make this story to have some sort if impact on Garrett and make him help.

It makes some good levels.

-City levels with much corruption.
-Some sort of castle(s) for the thiefing sake.
-The pagans camps out in the wood. 1 level just among the Pagans and 1 about waking up the Trickster.
-Hammerite levels. 1 just among the hammerites where they find the scripts and 1 at the giantic portal building.
-Crazy levels. Hospital, Zeppelin, inside the portal (?) etc.

What about The Trickster? Should he be resurected? Just for a while? Will he do something to the Hammers portal and building and the outcome of the story?

What about Garrett? How much should he sacrifice? His life?

Vae
23rd Apr 2010, 23:17
Plus, Garrett is solo artist, a lone wolf, if you will. There is no viable way for her to be a part of any extended stay in T4...unless of course, she is the Trickster in disguise...;)

Platinumoxicity
24th Apr 2010, 07:24
Except that the Trickster is dead. Your "unless of course" is invalid. ;)

Vae
24th Apr 2010, 08:30
The possibility is valid.

You still think the Trickster is mortal beyond a shadow of a doubt do you? What a shame, I thought you had a more open mind than that Platinum...:(

Platinumoxicity
24th Apr 2010, 09:15
You still think the Trickster is mortal beyond a shadow of a doubt do you? What a shame, I thought you had a more open mind than that Platinum...:(

Ahem... that goes both ways don't you think? You are the one who's unable to grasp the concept of a god-creature being mortal. I'm not limiting my view to some vague commonly-accepted concept of an immortal god. I think that anyone could be a god if enough powerful people tell enough less powerful people that he is so. That's how it went in Egypt, and it's prefectly possible that that's how it went in the ancient forests of the Trickster's people.

I'm sorry that I can't assume that a god is immortal, and I can't dismiss the fact that the keepers which have all real happening events written down in advance have told us twice that the Trickster truly is dead. I can't do that. Retconning defeated antagonists is something that should never be done, unless it's supposed to be really stupid and funny. Like the severed head of the bad guy in Crank2. :D

Platinumoxicity
24th Apr 2010, 13:22
I always thought that LGS deliberately set up the end of T2 in a way that Viktoria's resurrection in any way was impossible. Think about it. The cathedral is sealed. Air tight. Se filled the cathedral with plants to start a chain reaction. Every single living cell inside that structure was reduced to its elemental components. There was nothing left but dust. If there would've been an alternative ending where Garrett assassinates Karras before he could signal the servants, the possibility of Viktoria creating a new lifeform out of her organic remains would at least make sense in some way.

As for Constantine, he took a risk. He thought he had acquired the perfect weapon to get the world back on it's knees. He thought no-one could stop him. He had been hiding for centuries because the humans that previously had been in his grip had developed ways to destroy him. The Hammer. The fire. The intellect. And that's why he demonized the Hammerites. Constantine was an old gunpowder-filled cannonball trying to do the work of a computer virus in the digital world. But he couldn't fight the future by his antiquated means.

Corzama
24th Apr 2010, 23:00
Too many pages.. too many ideas.. might as well throw mine in.. new main character trained by
another branch of keepers aimed at taking garret down, a assassin vs a thief an somewhere in the
mix of things add that the keepers want to revive the lost branch where garret lives along with their
powers an hmm..

Another idea.. take a normal route about it let garret thief for awhile then get caught up in some new
mess with other older gods an take somewhat of a "supernatural" route as he's been sorta doing.

Last idea take a couple of "hit" writers an form a new idea altogether =p

Peace!

PS: Idea #1 kinda like metal gear & idea #2 much like the tv show.. but hey.. all ideas are formed
off inspiration from existing things so don't bash on me. I'm just "tryin".

Belboz
7th May 2010, 14:51
some trolls would be nice, you could model them on the trolls on this very forum.

Rieknor
7th May 2010, 15:55
Keeper revenge? Too bad they have so much less power, now. I can see them taking him out if they overwhelm him in numbers, but they're training days, and most important, their no-longer-secret facilities, and the fact that Garrett is among the best of the best, makes it unlikely. It would work if the Hammers, Pagans, and ex-Keepers united against him.

Why the ex-keepers will make an arrangement with the Hammers or with the Pagans against Garret?

The ex-keepers owes Garret. For everything he did to help them...in his own ways:rolleyes:

And with the Hammers, I dont think they're completly bad. They just have issues with Garret for allways committing an outrage against the builder's orders.


I think The Hammers and The Pagans should give Garret complications, as allways, to finally meet the most powerful faction.(a new one or a sect of the Pagans)

(By the way, what the hell is gammal(the hug)?

Rieknor
7th May 2010, 16:22
Maybe just maybe, the antagonist should be good. For example the Baron or some othersuch figure, is setting up a full on police-state dictatorship in the city. And being a criminal that makes profit has become extremely hard. But this dictatoriship isn't necessarily bad, crime is down, unemployment is down, hunger is down and people are generally happy. But Garret cant be having no profit, so he puts a wrench in the cogs of the dictatorship and joins some rebels, possibly pagans, and tries to bring the city dictator to his knees.
I dont know if I really like it, but it would be interesting, Garret being shown in all his immorality and selfishness.

It's good, but i will change something.
People are not happy with the dictatorship in the city. The only people who should be supportive in this dictatorship is the highest oligarchy in the city, the most rich people.
(something like it happend in my contry, Argentina)

And I also like the idea of a new thief in town defying Garret.


So i think the thing is:
Garret dealing with a new thief, at the same time hewant to help the people of the city to take the control of the city again, while hes doing his best to save the world of the new faction o sect.

Platinumoxicity
7th May 2010, 16:33
I ghosted T2X yesterday for the 1st time (brag brag) and it seems that I wasn't the only one who thinks Constantine was a mere man with powerful powers.

Alinya's diary: "Could these be the markings of the Trickster of whom the Hammers speak? Surely not - for he is but a demi-god, a man with cloven hooves and a passion for nature."

This doesn't prove anything because it was written by mere mortals (Not LGS :D ) but I'm glad I'm not the only one who prefers that over some boring stereotypical "god" concept.

Namdrol
7th May 2010, 16:38
some trolls would be nice, you could model them on the trolls on this very forum.

Not many about any more, they come, get laughed at and disappear into the ether.

esme
7th May 2010, 17:13
as long as you could blackjack the trolls I can think of a few characters they could be modelled on http://www.ttlg.com/forums/images/smilies/ebil.gif

Hamadriyad
7th May 2010, 19:56
I ghosted T2X yesterday for the 1st time (brag brag) and it seems that I wasn't the only one who thinks Constantine was a mere man with powerful powers.

Alinya's diary: "Could these be the markings of the Trickster of whom the Hammers speak? Surely not - for he is but a demi-god, a man with cloven hooves and a passion for nature."

This doesn't prove anything because it was written by mere mortals (Not LGS :D ) but I'm glad I'm not the only one who prefers that over some boring stereotypical "god" concept.

Yes, it's quite possible that Constantine isn't a real god. But we can't sure. But I wonder the Master Builder. Who is he? Imagenary, a human with superpowers, a real god?

Platinumoxicity
7th May 2010, 21:40
I always found the concept interesting, that Constantine was a powerful leader of the ancient people, got mad with power and forced his people to believe that he was a god. After a while nobody questioned him for the fear of being destroyed. I think something like that is much more original than just having the old stereotypical Nature VS Technology thing.

An immortal god vs another immortal god is an unstoppable force meeting an immovable obstacle. And it doesn't generate good storytelling. It just repeats the same taff.

The Builder could well be completely made up, a controlling device falsely attributed to the actual "blessings" and technological advancements. Or he could be like Buddha, a wise man from a long time ago. He could've been a carpenter that revolutionalized architecture, and legends about him twisted and changed during the centuries and deified him.

Nephthys
7th May 2010, 21:41
bring back the creepy eye-plants in the Maw. those were cool.

Rieknor
8th May 2010, 06:19
He could be like Buddha, a wise man from a long time ago. He could've been a carpenter that revolutionalized architecture, and legends about him twisted and changed during the centuries and deified him.

This is what I ment when i said something about the builder showing up.

But it couldnt be exactly like buddha becouse the builder is the one who created the universe and blah blah blah (like wikipedia say)(i dont know the Verisimilitude of this information)

Platinumoxicity
8th May 2010, 09:18
The Builder is credited with the placement of the celestial bodies, so that makes him more than an inspired man in the minds of more modern Hammerites.

Well I said that he could've been some kind of a great public figure in the first days of the history of the City, but information could've gotten lost and changed in the long years before modern times.

Random theory: "In the beginning days of the City it was just a small hunter-gatherer camp next to a great river. It became a village. There was a man, who never spoke anything, but if you asked him to build you a house, he did it without asking anything in return. He built walls around the village to protect it from the wilderness. This became a bedtime story, then it became legend and changed. He became known as The Builder. Centuries passed, technology brought the hammer, the nail, brick&mortar. Clever conmen started seeking donations for the cause of The Builder by preaching their own "improved" stories about The Builder. Their greed started catching up to their earnings, so they needed to further "improve" their stories by creating tenets, restrictions and punishments, even divine kind. They got a following of fearful ignorant men that did everything they were told for the fear of the Builder's wrath. This went on for a long time, and all scientific discoveries from tesla coils to stellar magic were all falsely attributed to The Builder, for no man should ever take credit for his own achievements. They're all "Builder's blessings." The story of a noble generous man had become a violent extremist religion."

---much like the argument The Christ VS The Christians. :D How do you get from "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." to "God hates f.ags!"?

Platinumoxicity
8th May 2010, 09:59
Heh. The Hammers used to live somewhat like the Pagans, until the guy who built things showed them his fancy-shmancy tool that he could build amazing buildings with, plus it was good for ending arguments.

And Constantine got all butthurt because some folks started developing stuff that could overthrow him. And they did. Until he found the Eye. And failed again :D

Hamadriyad
8th May 2010, 10:04
There is a painting of the Master Builder. Builder holds a shiny hammer, Trickster afraids of him. If this is true and Builder defeated the Trickster, then the Builder can't be a ordinary human.

Vae
8th May 2010, 10:19
Well I said that he could've been some kind of a great public figure in the first days of the history of the City, but information could've gotten lost and changed in the long years before modern times.

Random theory: "In the beginning days of the City it was just a small hunter-gatherer camp next to a great river. It became a village. There was a man, who never spoke anything, but if you asked him to build you a house, he did it without asking anything in return. He built walls around the village to protect it from the wilderness. This became a bedtime story, then it became legend and changed. He became known as The Builder. Centuries passed, technology brought the hammer, the nail, brick&mortar. Clever conmen started seeking donations for the cause of The Builder by preaching their own "improved" stories about The Builder. Their greed started catching up to their earnings, so they needed to further "improve" their stories by creating tenets, restrictions and punishments, even divine kind. They got a following of fearful ignorant men that did everything they were told for the fear of the Builder's wrath. This went on for a long time, and all scientific discoveries from tesla coils to stellar magic were all falsely attributed to The Builder, for no man should ever take credit for his own achievements. They're all "Builder's blessings." The story of a noble generous man had become a violent extremist religion."

---much like the argument The Christ VS The Christians. :D How do you get from "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." to "God hates f.ags!"?

Depressing...:(....Why would one want to shrink Thiefs' cosmology into some sort of far-fetched banal interpretation of the greater entities? Why diminish the wonder and expanse that the Builder and the Trickster bestow to the THIEF universe? The lore and culture would indicate that in all probability, both are something far greater than you are suggesting. The presence of these deified entities magicalize and stratify the THIEF experience, richly yielding expansive mystery...which generates untold stories of adventure and delight....:D

Platinumoxicity
8th May 2010, 11:28
Depressing...:(....Why would one want to shrink Thiefs' cosmology into some sort of far-fetched banal interpretation of the greater entities? Why diminish the wonder and expanse that the Builder and the Trickster bestow to the THIEF universe? The lore and culture would indicate that in all probability, both are something far greater than you are suggesting. The presence of these deified entities magicalize and stratify the THIEF experience, richly yielding expansive mystery...which generates untold stories of adventure and delight....:D

I just can't stand the boring unoriginality of such concepts. The world of Thief has always been surprisingly different and unique compared to most fantasy worlds. I just think that the presence of actual god figures shatters the uniqueness and brings it down one level back to being "normal" when it comes to fantasy. Gods are not "wonderful". They're lazy concepts. A person who cleverly uses deceptive and unexpected means to achieve great results (Ahem. Garrett ;) ) is much more interesting than just someone who's all-powerful and can just do it all naturally, and has no weaknesses and can't die. And this nonsense about good and bad magic, that's stupid. Natural forces don't know whether they're good or bad. It could be that it all is the same thing, many people and things use it and they all think it's the blessings of their own personal deity. -That's much more interesting than the ol' StarWars Light&Dark side thing.

It's the Thief world, the planet which is the deity. It hands out free power for those who want it, without judging who's good or bad. But it doesn't tell anyone anything. People need to "ask it" specific questions, if they ever want to learn anything from it.

Hamadriyad
8th May 2010, 15:17
Are there two gods and two religions in Thief? It seems like that. People should choose one or another, otherwise you are an unbeliever. Why? Maybe thieves have a god (Garrett :D), some people belive something else etc.
Hammerites are very effective in the City, that's right. But it doesn't change anything..
Also, Hammers don't look like make efforts to influence people to join them.
It would be good to see some sermons in the streets. They can try to influence people.

Rieknor
8th May 2010, 20:54
Are there two gods and two religions in Thief? It seems like that. People should choose one or another, otherwise you are an unbeliever. Why? Maybe thieves have a god (Garrett :D), some people belive something else etc.
Hammerites are very effective in the City, that's right. But it doesn't change anything..
Also, Hammers don't look like make efforts to influence people to join them.
It would be good to see some sermons in the streets. They can try to influence people.

Interesting.

That's preaty much what i was saying. A new faction.

Vae
8th May 2010, 21:05
And this nonsense about good and bad magic, that's stupid. Natural forces don't know whether they're good or bad. It could be that it all is the same thing, many people and things use it and they all think it's the blessings of their own personal deity. -That's much more interesting than the ol' StarWars Light&Dark side thing. It's the Thief world, the planet which is the deity. It hands out free power for those who want it, without judging who's good or bad. But it doesn't tell anyone anything. People need to "ask it" specific questions, if they ever want to learn anything from it.

What Light and Dark side thing? Good and Bad magic? What are you talking about?...You seem to be confused about a great many things...

The force of "Order and Innovation" is personified by the "Builder" and the force of "Chaos and Nature" is likewise personified by the "Trickster". Both forces and entities are inherently neutral in the context of "Good vs. Evil". They are however diametrically opposed to each other on the "Order vs. Chaos" axis. These forces collide---> stratify---> play out, giving THIEF a unique cosmology, backstory, and approach.

The world of the City is a nexus point of intrigue and wonder; energized by the resulting tension and mystery that these two forces continually create...expressed by the strata of culture and creature alike, and operating at various levels of magnitude.

Platinumoxicity
8th May 2010, 22:35
"The blessing" is usually viewed as "good" and "Haunting" usually viewed as bad. Neither one of them need to have a divine source. They can just be part of the world. So far The Eye has bee the most powerful entity in the series, being able to not only raise the dead like necromancers, but also influence all the powers of the pagan world, that Constantine tried to harness. The Eye seems to know a lot of stuff, and doesn't restrict it's power to a specific ideology unlike the factions. I wouldn't be surprised if it could synthetisize the Hammerite "blessings" too if it wanted.

Hamadriyad
9th May 2010, 11:02
Interesting.

That's preaty much what i was saying. A new faction.

Yes, a new faction. But not just that. Also we should see, how they(Hammers and others) influence people, how strong they are, what do people think about them?
Actually TMA did that with Mechanists. But as long as factions are part of the game, it should be continue.

Rieknor
9th May 2010, 18:27
Yes, a new faction. But not just that. Also we should see, how they(Hammers and others) influence people, how strong they are, what do people think about them?
Actually TMA did that with Mechanists. But as long as factions are part of the game, it should be continue.

Right, but i think Garret should deal with the dictatorship in the city, the new thief in town and the bigest problem, the new faction.

Mad Tom
12th May 2010, 22:37
Neither the Hammerites or Pagans are evil, just opposing forces of chaos and order vying for dominion over the world. The Keepers were proponents of balance in all things (except for a monopoly on knowledge). It would be nice to see a new faction with zero moral ambiguity (leave that to Garrett). Undead, with some dead god they're trying to resurrect?

Alternately, the idea I've seen in here on a cabal of nobles could also work very well. Nobles are generally squishy in combat, but having the opponent's power being money and connections would also be cool. Guess it's a matter of less arcane or more arcane.

esme
13th May 2010, 10:30
well now Garretts destroyed glyphs forever, how about some ancient nameless evil like cthulhu escaping from a glyph enhanced prison where he was sealed by an earlier order of keepers because the glyphs are gone forever

there are plenty of statues for the character, it might be fun to have to deal with the actual character

KimVengeance
15th May 2010, 13:36
We need a main bad guy, but also some lesser villains and stories to play through. The more the better.

Ok.. we've seen the undead shambling about dumbly and groaning a lot. How about an undead villain that has its mind and faculties still. He or she controls all the rest of the undead in the old quarter.

I like the idea that the wizards could play a part as a group in the new game. Maybe have some creepy old secret magic places we have to go and retrieve things.

Then there are the corrupt nobility, always good for some minor villainy and "social justice" missions.
I also want to see the return of the Baron, and some intrigue around him.
Since things were so broken apart in the last games, lets meet a new watch commander, the pagans re-form "outside of town" separate area. The Hammers.. are maybe more puritanical than ever and could be pulling people off the street for every little infraction, and they still run the prison. There could be a mission in the abandoned factory where Karras met his end and his robots there are still functioning. They took his body apart maybe, since it appears to them to have malfunctioned, and they robotized him...
And there could be some good adventuring in the ruins of Constantine's mansion.

Dagan
25th May 2010, 21:45
Lord Bafford Comes after garret for taking his prize the Moon stone scepter.Forms A mercenary guild of cutthroats to help him catch Garret These mercs follow Garrets example clothed in black with a red kerchief out for blood and anything else they can steal. And Garret is to blame by the city watch.

Yohaun
25th May 2010, 21:58
A serial killer, who kills thieves.
Maybe an ex-city watch guard.

Dunno if anyone has thought of that yet.
The protagonist could search for clues in some kind of crime scene mission.
He could follow suspects..

Doesn't sound very thiefy´, though...

KimVengeance
26th May 2010, 06:08
A serial killer, who kills thieves.
Maybe an ex-city watch guard.


Thats cool. As long as its not Benny.

Hypevosa
26th May 2010, 06:22
OH MY GOD, if the villain of thief 4 was benny I would probably just **** myself.

I'd laugh myself to tears, and I'd probably be speechless for a week or so.

Tryst
26th May 2010, 12:52
I think it would be nice for Garrett to have the new villain as an ally to begin with until he starts to see the motives behind his/her missions for Garrett. I'd love for the keepers and all the previous factions to get involved too, maybe Garrett can even form a temporary alliance with Pagans or such to fight against a common foe.

This could also lead to variations in how certain missions are done, Garrett can have choices to deploy his allies in order to allow him to complete his part of the mission. Bad deployment makes it harder for Garrett but allows for the game to be played several times with different choices. Trust system maybe, allies gain or lose faith in Garrett depending on how well he deploys them and how many/few losses they take as a result. More faith = more choices but more possibilities to lose faith.

Platinumoxicity
26th May 2010, 13:04
Garrett only allies with anyone if his life depends on it. The main rule about being an independent contractor in the black- and gray areas of commerce is that you don't pick sides. If you pick a side you cut your profits in half and put your life at risk. If you work for 1 side exclusively you are bound to attract unwanted attention form the opposition, and you also lose potential clients by default. You work and sell for/to all sides. You live on both sides of the fence and your grass is always green.

Tryst
26th May 2010, 17:30
Garrett only allies with anyone if his life depends on it. The main rule about being an independent contractor in the black- and gray areas of commerce is that you don't pick sides. If you pick a side you cut your profits in half and put your life at risk. If you work for 1 side exclusively you are bound to attract unwanted attention form the opposition, and you also lose potential clients by default. You work and sell for/to all sides. You live on both sides of the fence and your grass is always green.
As you stated in another thread, varied gameplay. Presumably, the new villain would be a threat to his life and the lives of others. Allowing alliances with factions that were previously mortal enemies, it strengthens the sense of danger that everyone faces. The varied gameplay comes with choosing which ally you want, possibly at the expense of others. You can then play several times, each time choosing a different ally with different results, side missions and tactics.

Pagans - Magic and stealth.
Mechanoids - Mechanical weapons and lots of noise.
Hammerites - Brute force and ignorance.

Garrett would have to use these attributes of his allys to cover his own missions. For example, Mechanoids attract a lot of attention and keep guards and enemies away from him. Pagans can be like scouts, taking out guards quietly and leaving Garrett an open route to his goal with a minimum of disturbance. Along with the side missions they would ask of him to keep their loyalty, it makes for several playthroughs instead of just one.

Platinumoxicity
26th May 2010, 19:05
There's a difference between doing a job for someone and then doing another job for someone else, and "allying" with factions. Garrett does a job that pays. For whom or to what end he does the job doesn't concern him, and to whom those people give the job to doesn't concern them.

I can't see Mr. 47 allying with anyone.

medwardl
27th May 2010, 04:59
Idea's maybe?
:An old evil long buried and forgotten and dug up my the Hammerites kinda like that skull.
:A rouge Keeper who blames Garrett for his problems.
:A random crazy that escaped from prison who blames Garrett for his incarceration
:A mercenary hired by Nobles to make Garrett disappear.
:A maybe a group of pagans with a grudge because Garrett defeated the Trickster.

Platinumoxicity
27th May 2010, 08:33
How 'bout a little 8-year old dark haired girl, who is simultaneously an innocent street urchin, a ghost of a murdered orphan and a deranged ancient keeper obsessed with glyph magic? -As if there has to be 3 identical little dark-haired girls in one game. :rolleyes:

Ok, seriously now...

...all right I've got nothing. :(

xAcerbusx
27th May 2010, 10:02
Constantine was a great villain in The Dark Project because he was able to outsmart Garrett. Karras and the Mechanists were awesome, but came off as slightly bumbling. Ditto for Gammall.

It would be nice to have the antagonist be someone capable of outwitting Garrett. A fellow thief? A prince of thieves-type? Someone who's more powerful and a deeper thinker than Ramirez. Not necessarily evil, either. Someone who's more of a pragmatist. (Like Al Swearengen from Deadwood) That's my vote, at any rate.

glyph07
28th May 2010, 13:08
(...) Someone who's more powerful and a deeper thinker than Ramirez (...)

:thumb: Possibly not really a Thief though as to avoid the classic theme of "direct competition on the job".

Downwinder
29th May 2010, 23:36
Each game left a few breadcrumbs that could be utilized. Many of them are mentioned in the posts. When this topic has been brought up to other fans of the game series, one that is pointed out is the keepers themselves. In Deadly Shadows, while in the keepers lair, you can hear many accounts of the keeper order who are arguing about the way the prophecies are being interpreted.

An idea could be that, like many world religions, sects form and branch off to from new orders. That being the case, there could potentially be a scenario where the newly created sect knows the ins and outs of the traditional keeper order but on their path towards their own beliefs and interpretation of the prophecies, they end up upsetting the balance of power to where Garret hast to, in his own way, restore order.

Though Victoria is dead from Karras’s machines, bear in mind that her makeup is a plant over that of a human. Anyone who has ever dealt with weeds in the garden know that no matter how much weed killer you lay down, they always return. Now don’t jump the shark on this but it is a window. The pagans have been in every game and could and should play a part as either friend or foe, or both.

The City Watch is always available as they will always be a foe of Garrets. Just because He restored balance and order to the world, should make no difference to them because, in essence, they should not even be aware of it. The criminals such as the gangs or pirates make great sub-level antagonists but never would they be one of :world changing importance. Much like Noble class villains, they seek power by specific means but it is always more local than global. The global level power struggle comes from the mystical villains like the Trickster, the Mages, the Hammerites, the Mechanists, the Pagans, and/ or even the Keepers themselves.

Balance is not always accomplished with a two sided lever; neither should the antagonistic plot scenario(s).

Downwinder
30th May 2010, 18:47
Your idea would work if the Keepers weren't strictly based around the Glyphs and Prophecies--now gone. Having splinter groups, or actually, cliques of ex-Keepers banding together for a livelihood and purpose beyond survival without most of what they once had is entirely feasible.

I have but one point that I would like to understand better with your response…

True the Keepers were based around the Glyphs and Prophecies but I do not see how you can remove them from the game. They go hand and hand with everything in relation to all directions the story and can no more disappear then could Garret. Then it would cease to be the game at all and would thus become a completely new game.

If I may bloviate in depth....

For a moment, take a look at a real world scenario… Judaism and Christianity were once one single religion. At a specific point in their history, they branched off into different directions though not entirely opposite. That point was, for Christians, the belief in the birth of Christ. For Islam, it is the same. Shia and Sunni where once a single religion but around (I believe as I am not a Muslim) the death of the prophet Mohamed, they split into two factions. In the story, the same thing happens with the Hammerites and the Mechanists. The beauty of it is that at the ending of TDS, left a perfect opportunity for the Order of the Keepers to do the same. It is comparable that Garret restoring balance could be equivalent to The birth of Christ or the death of Muhammad where some believe that the prophecy has been fulfilled by him while others are not convinced as such and therefore they look in a different direction.

The Fracturing which begins in the Sacred Chamber that was in TDS with equal number of council members disagreeing till they eventually split off into the traditional (like the Hammerites or Judaism) and the alternative (the Machonists or Christians). Since Garret is never one for group membership, he would have long since left and gone back to his old life while they fought out their differences. What is more fascinating is the with two separate but parallel Keeper sects attempting to balance the world, their difference in views could very much contribute to the unbalancing of it. Thus brings Garret front and center; only this time, through progress in the story line and game, he is faced with significant challenges from a world he came from. Neither side may be right and métier side may be wrong but ultimately it is he that must restore balance from what both do or undo. May I also add that the pagans can also undergo a rift within their believers as well.

In this scenario, Garret has already left and returned to his old life, the stage is set for the situations where he has always found himself in. Trouble with the City Watch, Stealing from the nobility, rival criminals groups (including pirates, gangs, and guilds) vying for power in the underworld of society. The inclusion of the pagans and even some new “Mystical” groups can add a plethora of possibilities and opportunities to extend the life and breath of this story and game. Moreover, each segment of the game from TG through TDS left enough subtle hints that one could spend years compiling paths to travel upon.

s guy
30th May 2010, 19:25
http://images.elfwood.com/art/a/u/aumala/cthulhu.jpg

Well, there's only the one "creeepy" statue in Karath Din. In the planning for Thief 2 Gold, the Necromancers were going to attempt to raise a demon with the Book of Ash and a pentagram, which would just be redundant and less interesting than Constantine's Dark Project. Not only was the set of missions for it an interruption of the TMA story, but the idea just sounded wrong for Thief, being another cheap and way-overused cliche, and thankfully, T2X had a demon-raising, so it's even easier to avoid it in a new official game. But if it were given a full Thief game, and the ritual could somehow avoid repeating Constantine too much, but resemble a ritual involving nature and Chaos, and avoid the blood-red pentagram of DOOOOOM, but utilize the Talismans (found and collected by the Hand Mages who were canonically looking for them, but maybe they had to wait until the Glyphs were destroyed to take them from the Elemental Wards, only to find the Talismans no longer were charged with the respective elements, so they needed to replicate it roughly with other magic, which is only possible because the Talismans' structure is made to hold magic). And they could have their own prophesying statues like the four in the alcove off the Hand Mages' Library, and they could make useful and cryptic warnings. Instead of prophecies that didn't come true, we could instead see what the Hand Mages' prophecies were "really" all about when they said:



M1: It's true he has returned. We must be ready. Rough waters lie ahead.
M2: Try as we might, to retrieve the Talismans, the Prophecy is an ocean returning to shore. M1: Little we can do to prevent it; only prepare for its arrival.
M2: Many will not survive. We must try to redirect the current.
M1: It's the way of things. Civilizations will burn into the earth, so that it may give life to the next.
M2: Dry and dead is much of The City. The Sun will oppose and the conflict will end in flames.
M1: Winds of progress always head towards the grave.
M2: Soon, young apprentice, you shall grasp the truth of it.






Having been to the Lost City themselves, they have seen the Cthulhu statue, and it was almost implied that someone who wasn't a Mechanist was down there with them, spotted fleetingly, and had with them an ancient scroll, and to possibly have a corrupt Hand Mage follower of Azaran down in Karath Din as the Mechanists have excavated and discovered the Precursor technology, it's feasible the Hand Mage Necromancers got a hold of something that coincides with the Cthulhu statue and the elemental Temple of N'Lahotep. Unrelated, long ago, someone emptied the Library of Karath Din completely, and there are signs of looting, even in secret spaces. Azaran's recruits, and the Necromancers they became, helped him find the Book of Ash in sands of forgotten kings. Both in TDP/Gold and TMA, a special-looking building of Karath-Din was not accessible, but appears on the old map:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/Karath-DinMapOldNew.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/Karath-din_CthulhuSecret.gif


The Necromancers threaten the whole City, and all the factions can work together, Balanced, without even having to get along, but for the simple fact that each is truly threatened and they fight for their lives, and they all happen to be fighting the same threat.

IF only someone knew this much about thief 4...:o

Tryst
31st May 2010, 01:57
I want the Keepers to be there, but they are no longer Keepers of anything but their skins, has-beens, and a devastated "people". I want to see them as depressed, angry, desperate, thieves, beggars, struggling to adapt, dealing with great loss, seeking balance within without having any external purpose, spending the last of their days looking for a way to return the Glyphs, and harassing Garrett, as well as, embracing the change, accepting it, seeking a new life as librarians (I want to know about this "Grand Library" group Viktoria was a part of before she found Garrett as a possible candidate to go for The Eye), historians, informants, mercenaries, lawyers, gardeners, diplomats, ambassadors, moles, spies, secretaries and receptionists, travelers and explorers, archeologists, anthropologists, sea merchants, intelligence gatherers for the Baron, investigators/inspectors, couriers, and all manner of assimilation into The City populace--that is--when they aren't being questioned or forced to flee or interrogated for being part of a secret organization with secret tunnels that go right next to, under, over, and through peoples' homes, businesses, and all the scary revelations of not so much the people, but the authority who never knew this was going on, and for how long... It's a major bomb of potential terror once The City would realize how extensive the organization and their sprawling Compound(s) were. There would have to be trials, scapegoats, cries for answers, and I also believe they would have a lot going in their favor, since they could demonstrate how they were instrumental in saving The City as a whole, saving portions of it many times, or reducing the dangers from within over and over again.

What we have not seen or heard of is the Keepers ever saving The City from an external threat, and this is why I champion having the Hand Mages' corrupt members (the Necromancers) become the first major external threat, and having the ex-Keepers use their remnant Glyphless skills to help save The City again, but doing so blindly this time, or only with some prophecy form other factions (Pagans and Hand Mages and "gypsies" have accurate prophetic knowledge available). They can keep the balance between Pagans and Hammerites by acting as diplomats and persuaders, though using skills, not Glyph persuasions and mind-clouding and identity concealing.


Is that a little better? :D
This could be a re-run of the TDS scenario with the now defunct keepers tricking Garrett into obtaining a new alternative to the glyphs. Since the keepers were not actually destroyed and sufffered only a trimming of the higher ranks other than their ability to use the glyphs, I can see them trying to find another means to retain control. From what I can tell from the TDS story, only Orland and Gamal had any idea of what the final glyph would do if activated.

With the leadership in ruins and the glyphs gone, the keepers are no more than a rag tag band of misfits. It seems more likely that they would try to find a way to make themselves needed again since their existance is now just a parody. A lot of books in the keeper library were not written using glyphs, it seems concieveable that there may be evidence in them of another power rivaling that of the glyphs that they would try to obtain.

Garrett gets tip-offs about places worth investigating, maybe these could come originally from a former keeper to his sources of information and then on to Garrett himself. He unwittingly obtains new codices that the keepers want and his fences would obviously sell to the highest bidder. Maybe through time, he becomes suspicious of the number of "valuable" codices he's tipped off about and starts to do his own investigating which leads his back to the keepers.

How the story develops from there could be the players choice. Does Garrett continue to aid the keepers once he realises what they are doing? Or does he refuse to help them? There could be arguements from the keepers in favour of helping them and maybe from another faction (maybe a combination of Hammerite and Pagan) who oppose the keepers regaining the power they once had. Throw in another villain who wants the power for themselves and you have the makings of another story.

Downwinder
31st May 2010, 02:27
I am not talking about redoing the entire game and adding levels or major features. I am talking about recreating the original game in a new world engine. All cast and characters including voices would remain as they are… It was merely a "would you be interested question" and an attempt to spur the devs into exploring the idea. If I knew how to set it up as a Poll, I would have done that.

Would you be interested in seeing the T1 and T2, possibly TDS in a new world engine and what would something like that be worth to you?

medwardl
31st May 2010, 03:31
iv seen this kind of story live before where a magic or something like it was lost but there was always away to fix it.

Keeper_Riff
31st May 2010, 11:47
that does not mean the people can't adapt to something very different but basically related, and use entirely different means or new approaches.AFAIR, they were not always so dependent on Glyph magic as they were presented in T3. In Haunted Cathedral mission we see their chapel hidden not by Glyphs but mechanically. The entrance to Lost City is hidden by similar means too. How many such facilities they still have throughout the City? And the Cathedral itself was sealed by Elemental Wards (borrowed from the Mages?), not Glyphs. What they really should miss a lot is their prophecies. They'll have to analyze the situation by themselves according to the information they managed to collect. They won't be able to manipulate Garrett, but they still can provide him with information and clues.

Tryst
31st May 2010, 14:22
Yes, it's done very often in commercial entertainment, and it's called cheap writing and fan service. Resurrecting the dead ANYthing or ANYbody is crap storytelling, if it means they are back as though they were only on vacation and stressed everybody out, and it's unimaginative as hell. It also means that there are no heavy consequences if it can just be undone. For Thief, I find that it opens up a whole new direction while allowing twists on the old themes. I find it exciting and ripe for adventure, original writing unseen anywhere, and of great potential to keep the Glyphs dead and Keepers lost and powerless and having to be just human beings again. They have leverage over everyone important, if they play their cards correctly and don't get themselves killed. There's still a lot of magic of different kinds, so that won't go away. The Keepers will have to keep[ secret by pure intelligence, not Glyphs of invisibility and persuasion and suggestion. They need to regroup, not recoup. I also believe its strict canon when the authors said the Glyphs are gone forever and the order will perish--that does not mean the people can't adapt to something very different but basically related, and use entirely different means or new approaches. It's not as scary for us or the authors as it sounds, but should be terrifying for the characters.
I think that was initially designed to mark the end of the trilogy. Not having the ability to continue in some way eliminates an entire faction from the story. We have seen the rise and fall of Garras and the Mechanists, now the Keepers so we're running a bit thin on factions with only the Hammerites and Pagans left. An existing faction needs to be reinstated or a new faction created. However, a new faction is going to be far more difficult without making it too much like a copy of the ones before it. I wouldn't want to see a variation on Mechanists with a bit of magic thrown in for good measure. The only other alternative is to step back in time and create a story that occurs before TDS or even TMA, although this is another cheap trick to reap revenue (prequels etc).

I would be far happier if the factions stayed as they were since they complimented each other nicely. To say that all the books had been erased by the last of all glyphs also means that all writing has been erased too unless you accept that not all books were wrritten in glyphs. As I said, this could lead to other things with information providing clues to another source of power rivaling that of the glyphs. Such power should never fall into the wrong hands and the keepers would be trying their hardest to reinstate their prior position by making sure it's their hands it falls into.

Tryst
31st May 2010, 20:44
They have been indoctrinated and institutionalised for years with the power of the glyphs, they are used to being in that position and it's not conceiveable IMO that they would simply give up. As you said, there are seers amidst the Pagan camps, there are writings of objects the seem to posess strange powers, these are not glyphs since they no longer exist but those who have used things with mysterious properties in the past would recognise the clues pointing toward alternative sources of power more readily than others. Being institutionalised for so long, the keepers would grab at the chance to remain in their own comfort zone as the controllers of that power. What they intend to do with this power is irrelevant, having the control that elevates them above the common man again is what would draw them to it, corruption comes later when they discover how to use it and what it can do. This would still not be an overnight recovery of their status, it would still require years of study to understand and begin to use this power but study is something they are comfortable with.

Take a surgeon, give him a gun and put him on a battlefield, he will doubtless reject taking someone else's life but the first wounded soldier he sees, he will always revert to doing something he knows how to do and feels comfortable doing.

The idea is to create a scenario rather than give immediate reinstatement of the keepers and their previous powers. This allows for a battle over power between the keepers who would need to study and learn and some viallain who already knows. Similar to Gamal. While the keepers still studied and learned about the glyphs, Gamal said "I eat glyphs, I breathe glyphs, I am glyphs." She knew far more about glyphs than the other keepers did. No doubt while the keepers were studying glyphs, someone else was studying this alternative power.

Odyseeos
1st Jun 2010, 06:05
"When the End of Words arrives, the fire will be driven from our hearts, and the efforts of the ages will be laid waste..."

:mad2::nut:

Taffer17
22nd Jun 2010, 06:18
jtr7. It seems to me that he's trying to just say that even though the Keepers spent all these centuries/millennia relying on the gylphs, their old writings had mentioned alternate sources of power. He is trying to suggest that the Keepers could slowly but surely come back to power using a different power from the glyphs but parallel to them, that they had not really looked into before since they already had the power (no need to look for somethign you already have). Reading your arguments back and forth, it appears you're not picking up on that and saying that the glyphs and only the glyphs could ever give the Keepers their power. Sure they prophesied the end of their times and Order, but since the future is unwritten, who's to say that they cannot regain power in the future? Yes the "efforts of the ages have been laid to waste", but that just leaves room for new efforts over new ages, don't ya think?

With that said, I've never personally been a fan of the Keeper's role in TDS. It took away all the mystery. I for one would rather not have them as a major part of the story AGAIN. 1)it's just repeating past stories, which people have been arguing against in this entire thread, 2) all this talk of a Keeper sect, it's been done with the Hammerites and Mechanists. Why another sect? That's my two cents on that issue. :D


Yes, but that approach to the "noble cabal" doesn't make for a game spanning and compelling antagonist group. Something better would be a group of nobles plotting to assassinate the Baron to gain his seat of power for dark and sinister motives would be better.

I like the idea of the nobles banding together to assassinate the Baron (although I'm not so sure Garrett would be willing to help out the Baron, rather just get stuck in the middle of fighting). It would make sense for the nobles to all hate Garrett and want him eliminated since he robbed most of them at one point or another. I can't see them being the main villain, however it could be like TMA where Sheriff Truart was sort of a side villain and side story to the overall Mechanist story. I can totally see that working well.

They could also be some secret organisation akin to the Freemasons, or the Stonecutters from the Simpsons :rasp:


Since we cannot attribute the fall of the precursor civilization to the Trickster nor to any other faction, I'd either try to have a similar danger recur, or conversely have some hidden-until-now descendants of the precursors conspire to bring the current city down and have the ancient one rise again on top of it. A sacrifice plot, if you will.

I like Huzi73's idead of the current City undergoing hte same calamity as the Lost City. Maybe you could flee to a nearby city, but in a mission or two, you have to explore the ruins of the once great city you used to call home?

I guess that would create too much of an uproar though to have the game take place in any other location besides The City...plus the Lost City would have to sink even further underground since it is already under the current one.


That a third god, The Reaper, was sealed away by glyphs, and when Garrett destroyed all the glyphs, that god was freed and his Necromancer worshippers try and take over the city just as the Pagans and the Mechanists did in T1 and T2.


Kinda reminds me of Lord Voldemort and his Death Eaters :whistle:


-King No-One could be a ruthless serial killer who uses the darkness just like Garrett does and he has complicated psychological motives in his criminal actions.


For some reason, the Joker from the animated Batman series comes to mind. :p


oh! I have an idea for a new villain! Garrett is retired from thieving and has successfully ventured into the world of pop music. Right as his sales are picking up, Hip Hop arrives in full force in The City and his record sales drop exponentially. Garrett must destroy Hip Hop (the villain) and bring order back to popular music.

ChristheThief
7th Dec 2010, 19:51
The enemy could be the Baron returning from the war

Btw- where is the mention (if any) of a war going on in the Thief world?

Platinumoxicity
7th Dec 2010, 21:04
For some reason, the Joker from the animated Batman series comes to mind. :p

I always thought that "the Joker is a an unpredictable psychopath" was as complex as his psychological motives go. :D

ChristheThief
8th Dec 2010, 17:46
TDP/Gold has a lot of unused gamefiles, including those about the wars, so it's not the strictest canon, yet not without valid intent, while TMA has the only in-game mentions, and TDS has zero mentions of war involving other cities, period. Blackbrook is the city the Baron is at war with, but Cyric and Bohn are fighting each other at the same time, as well.


These two were made for Break from Cragscleft Prison, but omitted:

HM1C0321: "Rather to buttress our defenses."
HM1C0322: "Nay, 'tis not they who chart the building of the battle. They but put in force the will of the Baron, and the Baron chooseth not to press the attack."
HM1C0323: "Lackwit. Thinks thou the Baron wishes to defeat Blackbrook?"
HM1C0324: "How think ye? The war grants the Baron a crisis to posture before and gains him many taxes he wouldst not otherwise see."
HM1C0325: "Daah, infant! 'Tis truth. And ever so the chisel cannot know the will of the hand it serves, nor should it judge whether the mark it makes be for well or ill. 'Tis enough for a tool to be sharp and well-crafted. Only so canst it serve The Builder."

HM1C0331: "Wilt this famine never break? The Stonemarket merchants ask yet another fifth above what they charged but a month ago. Yet I think they profit little from their sales."
HM1C0332: "I would've said myself 'twas due to the war between Cyric and Bohn. The lines of battle do rage over and pass what were, times ago, farms and ranches."
HM1C0333: "Thine arguments are persuasive and do show dedication, but I think thou may simplify o'er much."
HM1C0334: "Hmm..."


This was made for use in either Lord Bafford's Manor or Assassins! (as a lot of conversations in TDP were), but omitted along with most servant AIs in those missions:

sv2c0801: "Uugh..."
sv1c0802: "What's wrong?"
sv2c0803: "Oh I'm...I'm just worried my Jobi's never coming back. He's off fighting Blackbrook. I thought It'd be good for him, teach him discipline, but now..."
sv1c0804: "It's hard, I know."
sv2c0805: "Bein' a mother, worst thing in the world, I tell you. Best you can hope for is to die before your babes."


This is the final omitted conversation from TDP/Gold, regarding the wars. Benny has a betting pool going, but it's fishy:

Sg2c1601: "Hear you gotta pool!"
Sg3c1602: "Yep. Cyric over Bohn, three to two. And also when the war ends."
Sg2c1603: "Uh, give me six on Bohn and--uh...uh--five on another two years."
Sg3c1604: "Sure. Money now."
Sg2c1605: "Wait a minute. We pay you now, and you don't pay for two years? Nevermind!"


These are found in-game in TMA:

ex10502A: "What's the latest on the war, Raleigh?"
no10502B: (Worried exhalation) "Lord Anders hasn't received a report in some time. The last he heard, it was not going well. I fear the Baron may return with the battlefield coming right up behind him."
ex10502C: "I think you worry too much. This city is like a fortress. With the Mechanists here to help us defend The City, we needn't fret about it."
no10502D: (Contemptuous snorting laugh) "I think you put too much faith in the Mechanists. After all...they are only a splinter group of the Hammerites. Hardly a military force. They seem concerned only with aiding nobles with their fancy inventions. Their tin soldiers wouldn't last long against a real army."
ex10502E: "Well...until I see a battle going on outside my window, I shant worry about it."

From M04B12, Mosely's Journal: "Hopefully the war will be over soon and the Baron will return. I don't think I can take much more of Truart's 'New Age', as Hagen so often puts it."

sg4a0mu2: (To self) "I shoulda joined the army. You get medals for rewards in the army. Get to march around outside in the grass and the trees. Uniforms are better--they got real good boots, an' nice gold trim in the army." (Grumbles)

th10402A: (Grunts) "You guys can't treat me like this! I'm a vet'ran!"
sg60402B: (Laughing jeeringly) "Yeah, I bet that's where you learned to pick pockets so well."
th10402C : (Sniveling) "W-w-w--when I got back, my family was gone. I h-had no money to live."
sg60402D: (Jeeringly) "Sure. Tell it to the sheriff. He's got a real soft spot for war heroes."




That's most of it.

I see, i think that if they'd been a war it could have been at least mentioned in Thief DS so now im not sure if the Baron coming back is a good idea, but i wou't be totally against it

Platinumoxicity
8th Dec 2010, 19:43
I see, i think that if they'd been a war it could have been at least mentioned in Thief DS so now im not sure if the Baron coming back is a good idea, but i wou't be totally against it

There are many things that the devs of TDS forgot/chose not to include or mention, or altered significantly. The strong organized crime element of the City. It was nonexistant in TDS. The City watch changed entirely in the short time between T2 and TDS. The existence of the mechanists was swept under the rug very efficiently. The glyphs that used to be just the source of the keepers' prophetic power were turned into "get some magic free cards". The pagans no longer hated the City, but were instead insisting on living in there. Garrett was turned into a celebrity to such a degree that it would be impossible for a thief like him to have survived this long. "The greatest thief the world has NEVER seen" was in fact made so well known that wanted posters with his face were pasted all over the City.

Many of the "useless" readables and conversations in the earlier games that provided a large portion of the fiction were not taken into consideration. This included for example the baron and his war. Thief 4 should take lots of reference from all of the games, even the tiny details. Hearing stuff about the wardens' business and the gambling in the Bear Pits makes the world seem a whole lot more familiar. :)

wolfenstein
8th Dec 2010, 22:28
I know this may be off topic, but I think it would be awesome if decisions you made in the game affected the storyline and whether certain characters reveal themselves as being the arch enemy behind the games story line.

I liked how you could go and find the horn Felix talked about while rescuing cutty from the hammer prison but only if you spoke to Felix ;)

And after I played Dragon Age I liked how characters could begin to like/dislike you. I think if you choose certain missions it should alter the games path, maybe if the old hammers re appear you could do a mission for them and make the city guard become hostile, or if Karras and the Mechanist faction re appear you could end up doing a mission for them making the Pagans angry.

I also loved how the game storyline developed and drives the missions.

Any ways these were just rough ideas and I skipped to the end of the thread after reading a few pages so I've prolly repeated something some one else has mentioned XD

Nate
8th Dec 2010, 22:29
I like that idea as well!

rikuskey
22nd Dec 2010, 15:43
The main baddy of this game should be the Builder. Garrett has already gone against the Trickster. And Honestly I always thought the second game was going to be against the Builder.

Platinumoxicity
22nd Dec 2010, 17:17
The main baddy of this game should be the Builder. Garrett has already gone against the Trickster. And Honestly I always thought the second game was going to be against the Builder.

I think the order of the Hammer has been designed purposefully in a way that the player looks down upon them. Garrett is always messing around calling them fanatics and crazy old men, and the way the Builder is basically as nonexistant as the abrahamic god in our world translates Garrett's opinions to the player. So the players see the Hammerites in a similar light as Garrett does. The Hammerites should always be viewed as the pitiful misguided souls as they have always been.

Platinumoxicity
23rd Dec 2010, 00:06
Felix never was in Cragscleft. Felix and his team died in the Bonehoard. The reason why Garrett went to get the horn was that Cutty was supposed to pay Garrett for the Bafford job but was put into jail. Felix had left earlier to get the horn and Cutty cut Garrett in as means of payment.

Yaphy
23rd Dec 2010, 00:19
I don't really care what motives the antagonist has really, as long as he actually has a good motive for beeing "bad" it's fine by me. The most awesome thing in a good antagonist is if you see him/her as a really bad guy with no pure motive and when you finaly gets the better of him/her you realize that you actually was the bad guy. That is what I want to see. When the antagonist finally gets a chance to show his/her motives you realize that you were wrong all along. This is where the big plot change jumps in and the story should get so complex that you don't know who to trust. Some people should try to stop the antagonist at every cost without considering his/her motives valid and maybe even turns against you for considering joining the antagonist.

It doesn'y matter if it is a hammerite, pagan, mechanist, necromancer, mage, govenor female or male as long as the characters are all black and white. They should be like real people with a complex thinking and real motives instead of just a maniac that wants to take over the world. Many shades of gray is the best. Especially when you feel that you, the player is also among those gray shades.

Sharazito
29th Jan 2011, 20:08
Except that Gamall was a woman.

I mean a sexy woman...

AlexOfSpades
29th Jan 2011, 23:42
As an antagonist, i hope for something different.

I dont want to see any "Return" of the previous Antagonists ; Karras was dusted, Gamall came back to its granny form, and i just dont want to see any other Crayman in my life, so bye bye Trickster.

Also, i think we already had our share of supernatural antagonists (TDS, TDP) and i think its time to go back to an opressing, human tyrant, who relies on physical or economical power than in magical abilities.

Zhukov
30th Jan 2011, 15:05
The old factions are in disarray, I'd appreciate new powers coming in to vie for the heart of the City or just a leaderless mess, chaos. I'd like some ex-Keepers turning to crime and rivaling Garrett, arriving at the climax of a mission and realizing the scepter/sword/jewel has already been lifted would make me hate that antagonist.

Nate
31st Jan 2011, 03:34
Hand Mages should resurrect the HAND OF FATE.....common, you guys remember the Hand of Fate, right?

Tryst
31st Jan 2011, 15:37
Hand Mages should resurrect the HAND OF FATE.....common, you guys remember the Hand of Fate, right?
I've always said that the Mages would step in if the Keepers weren't there to stop them. It has only really been the Keepers and their Glyph power that prevented the mages gaining power. With the Keepers out of the way and no more Glyph power, it stands to reason the Mages would seize the opportunity.

Without the keepers and their power supporting Garrett, he would face an old adversary but now more on the terms that favored them and not Garrett. Maybe Garrett would realise that, although he refused to actively use Glyphs, he did subconsciously use them to an extent due to his training as a keeper. Some things he may have to learn to do all over again but this time, without the protection that the Glyphs gave him.

Maybe the offer of a total pardon for his crimes in return for defeating the Mages, plus an amnesty from the City Watch during the job providing he keeps his nose clean. Garrett takes on the job before realising that he no longer has the same protection from the Mages that he had before and it would be a lot harder than he anticipated.

Platinumoxicity
31st Jan 2011, 15:48
The Mages are scientists with no wishes for world domination. They stay away from the City and keep to themselves. They don't worship the elements as gods and do their imaginary evil bidding or anything fanatical like that. They respect the elements and the elements respect them. I don't see any reason for the Mages to try to conquer the City.

Nightwynd
31st Jan 2011, 16:52
How about a rogue branch of the mages? Necromancers have been brought up a lot. The stage would be then set up: mages vs. necromancers, Garrett caught in the middle of it. Gotta admit tho, necromancers in general are kinda worn out by games set in a medieval fantasy world. A cliché, but I don't mind if it's well executed. Hard to come up with something truly original, never seen before.

Nightwynd
1st Feb 2011, 10:08
The Hand Mages would be protagonists, offering prophetic tips, artifacts, and whatever, to help Garrett help them to get rid of the corrupt splinter group and the Book of Ash once and for all.--

That's pretty much what I thought, too. That setting would probably mean we'd be seeing a lot more of the undead and emphasis on the magical side of the verse.

Vae
1st Feb 2011, 10:30
Which is exactly what I'd love to see...'Tis the perfect continuation, bringing the Hand into play with all of the unknowns still intact...ready to unfold within rich layers of mystery and intrigue. The elaboration of magic, undead, and the supernatural, combined with the expanded play of the shady coast and the wondrous sea.......ahhhh, I can almost taste it now...:D

Zhukov
2nd Feb 2011, 06:57
I'm not sure if the Mages can carry a story, they are a minor group, with an expedition in The City, they have a toehold but not really a base. I wouldn't mind if they had a few missions thrown their way but I'm not interested in Garrett going against evil wizards or whatever, kind of cliche for the genre. Isn't the de-emphasis on the undead and magic the reason why people rate TMA as the best game anyway?

armyof1ne
2nd Feb 2011, 14:11
I think the trickster coming back would be awesome, now that garrent has the final glyph power he can kick the trickster's butt, Basically, he would have to deal with the keepers, the hammerites, the mechanists, and the pagans to figure out how to use the final glyph(They each have there own name for it of course)
Another twist i kinda thought up was that garret is in fact "The Builders" rebellious son, No real accounting of the builder had been made of him walking the earth, and garret knows nothing about it...It just seems like the trickster and "the builder" had been going at it a while and garret is the builder's ace in the hole! Hey i know its out there but they could use the raw material and make it better

Platinumoxicity
2nd Feb 2011, 18:48
I think the trickster coming back would be awesome, now that garrent has the final glyph power he can kick the trickster's butt, Basically, he would have to deal with the keepers, the hammerites, the mechanists, and the pagans to figure out how to use the final glyph(They each have there own name for it of course)
Another twist i kinda thought up was that garret is in fact "The Builders" rebellious son, No real accounting of the builder had been made of him walking the earth, and garret knows nothing about it...It just seems like the trickster and "the builder" had been going at it a while and garret is the builder's ace in the hole! Hey i know its out there but they could use the raw material and make it better

A masterpiece beyond comprehension. :D

...really. It is. Every single thing said there is wrong. That takes some skill.

Nate
2nd Feb 2011, 21:54
I don't know if being the 'True Keeper' gives Garrett any glyph powers/abilities......but TDS was clear that the Keepers were just 'placeholders' until the arrival of the True Keeper....really, I can't say either way on the 'Glyph Power' thing for Garrett.

Nate
3rd Feb 2011, 02:26
You SAY that, but we really don't know what being the True Keeper would mean in terms of glyph magic usage.

Doesn't matter though, Garrett with glyph powers would unbalance (hehe pun) the whole experience and turn the Garrett into a pseudo Sorcerer-Thief.....not going to happen!

armyof1ne
3rd Feb 2011, 05:14
A masterpiece beyond comprehension. :D

...really. It is. Every single thing said there is wrong. That takes some skill.
I was slightly joking... But there are some valid points... First off, the world of thief should be all inclusive... They should have a little story line concerning all the world that is thief.... There is nowhere were it states that the builder was on the earth at any time, the metal age was about the mechanists and and the builder, TDP was about the pagans and the trickster, DS was about the keepers... so you tell me, whats next? i think almost all bases were covered... so....

Platinumoxicity
3rd Feb 2011, 05:39
I was slightly joking... But there are some valid points...

No no. No valid points. See, everything actually is wrong.

"I think the trickster coming back would be awesome," -Anyone who has been stated as dead, as in d.e.a.d can't be brought back without making the story the exact opposite of "awesome"

"now that garrent has the final glyph power he can kick the trickster's butt," -It's "Garrett", and he doesn't have any glyph powers because he fulfilled his predetermined destiny as the keeper already. And the Trickster is still dead.

"Basically, he would have to deal with the keepers, the hammerites, the mechanists, and the pagans to figure out how to use the final glyph(They each have there own name for it of course)" -I have no idea what you're talking about here. Is it in the past tense or the future?

"Another twist i kinda thought up was that garret is in fact "The Builders" rebellious son, No real accounting of the builder had been made of him walking the earth, and garret knows nothing about it...It just seems like the trickster and "the builder" had been going at it a while and garret is the builder's ace in the hole!" -It's still "Garrett" and nothing in this part makes sense.

"Hey i know its out there but they could use the raw material and make it better." -Yeah it's out there all right... The writers at EM will surely find your raw material very helpful. :rolleyes: This is not a serious response, mind you, all you serious people. :D But how else can you feed a troll so obvious?

armyof1ne
3rd Feb 2011, 06:06
No no. No valid points. See, everything actually is wrong.

"I think the trickster coming back would be awesome," -Anyone who has been stated as dead, as in d.e.a.d can't be brought back without making the story the exact opposite of "awesome"

"now that garrent has the final glyph power he can kick the trickster's butt," -It's "Garrett", and he doesn't have any glyph powers because he fulfilled his predetermined destiny as the keeper already. And the Trickster is still dead.

"Basically, he would have to deal with the keepers, the hammerites, the mechanists, and the pagans to figure out how to use the final glyph(They each have there own name for it of course)" -I have no idea what you're talking about here. Is it in the past tense or the future?

"Another twist i kinda thought up was that garret is in fact "The Builders" rebellious son, No real accounting of the builder had been made of him walking the earth, and garret knows nothing about it...It just seems like the trickster and "the builder" had been going at it a while and garret is the builder's ace in the hole!" -It's still "Garrett" and nothing in this part makes sense.

"Hey i know its out there but they could use the raw material and make it better." -Yeah it's out there all right... The writers at EM will surely find your raw material very helpful. :rolleyes: This is not a serious response, mind you, all you serious people. :D But how else can you feed a troll so obvious?

....:mad2: its amazing how some people cant see past the end of there nose, lol... why dont you read what was after "I was slightly joking... But there are some valid points..." And i think that will clear it up for you, please if you need any help, i would be happy to assist

Nate
3rd Feb 2011, 14:44
Dead characters NEED TO STAY DEAD!!!!

I would hate to see 'The Trickster 'tricked' Garrett and was fine all along....it was all part of his plan to errr, be chaotic!' ?!?!?!

or

Viktoria's okay, she just grew back and all is well....she only did her little sacrifice speech to motive Garrett = ?!?!?!?!

Tryst
3rd Feb 2011, 17:17
Reviving old antagonists like the Trickster is a thing that games and movies do when there is a lack of ideas. There is no lack of ideas here, many other ideas put forward here that do not involve reviving dead characters have some merit.

New antagonists are easy to think up, how to create a plot around them is the tricky part. However, there are enough people even here on this forum with knowledge of lore and canon to know how it could be done.

So please, no more ideas of reviving the Trickster, Gamal or any of the others that have already been defeated. The original stories were good, let's not dilute them by revival and effectively, a replay of the original story of that antagonist.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Feb 2011, 17:43
There seems to be a common problem with thinking about a continuation from the 3 games because their plotlines are interconnected so tightly because of the presence of the keepers. People think that somehow it wouldn't make sense to just come up with a new interesting enemy that was not present in the earlier games, but that's how most games are made. Usually when a game ending ties up all loose ends, it's easy to make a sequel because there are no restrictions. But if the end of a trilogy ties up all loose ends of a tightly wrapped trilogy, for some reason any continuation should have some relation to everything that came before, and thus makes writing a sequel harder.

How about this... a secret power older than the keepers that utilizes statistical projection and info gathering to steer the future in whatever way they please had orchestrated all the events leading to Garrett destroying the keepers, because they need the cover of the unwritten times and the disarray caused by the sudden end of the keepers to get away with something huge. The old keeper who first found Garrett on the street was in fact manipulated by this mysterious power to do exactly that. They created the final glyph, planned and executed centuries long chain of events that would lead to the end of the keepers just in time to stop anyone from discovering their true plans from the prophecies that should've applied to the unwritten times, and the presence of the keeper order all those years made the keepers overconfident and prevented them from ever considering the fact that there was something bigger in the background waiting to make it's move.

See? I just made up something that was never mentioned in the earlier games and it fits. It's not that hard. You don't need to go resurrecting dead villains to get a sequel. :)

matahari
11th Feb 2011, 10:40
Villains for Thief 4? Mmm, I'm probably in a minority of one when I say that I'm not turned on by super villains or supernatural monsters. For me, the ideal villains for Thief 4 are crooked and corrupt authority figures who employ depressed/eccentric/whimsical/paranoid guards. I'd like Thief 4 to be about stealthy thieving missions, not fighting monsters or supermages etc. Surely that's all been done before? Can't Thief 4 just be about, well, thieving? You could still have a dark, gritty, tense atmosphere. You could still have great characterisation and dialogue. But maybe the backdrop could be more 'Dickensian' (i.e. macabre, grotesque, metropolitan, with thieving as a mode of survival for the underdog)? I'm just worried that Thief 4 is going to end up like some turn-based tactical RPG romp with a pseudo-supernatural theme. For me, the best part of Thief 3 was the early missions, before all the hocus pocus stuff gets going. I think the game should, at its core, be a challenging stealth game - and that's all.

Tryst
11th Feb 2011, 12:16
I think the main attraction of Thief was diversity. You had the Pagans and Mages and such which were a part of the scenery almost. There were several stories of corrupt officials etc in Thief but really, it's not what the game is about, they were almost side missions to pave the way to the antagonist. To begin with, your basic corrupt official is too easy to spot and players who could correctly identify the antagonist during the early missions would be disappointed with the game.

There has to be an antagonist that requires a bit more than a few well placed (or stolen) incriminating documents to bring them down. Similarly, the game is not about hack and slash to defeat them. The antagonist needs to be completely hidden from view until the story reveals who it is and begins along the road to defeating them. Alternatively, as in the case of Karras, the antagonist is known from the start but why they are the antagonist is uncertain and the game concentrates on finding their underhanded dealings first.

Whichever way it's done, it needs to be someone who is out of the ordinary, either by magical or technological influences. That is what Thief is. Garrett wouldn't be interested in a corrupt mayor or a bent copper unless it adversely affected him in some way. Even then, he has enough capability to be able to take them down swiftly and decisively which woudn't make for a very long game.

matahari
11th Feb 2011, 16:41
I think you stumbled upon my point when you said 'unless it adversely affects' Garrett in some way. If Garrett is an underdog in a hostile environment, and if thieving is his only modus operandi, then he doesn't need supernatural villains to occupy his time and talents. In some ways I see the super villain/supernatural villain as a cop out. But real, human, villainy is all around us and is completely sickening in its depth and creativity. Couldn't Garrett confront the kind of issues that are really out there? I mentioned 'Dickensian' before because Dickens created heroes and villains that poplulated a threatening, monstrous metropolis, and yet much of his writing was wry social commentary. But I realise that I'm coming at this from a different angle to Thief fans who, quite justifiably, are attached to the previous characters and story lines. I guess I just didn't want the new Thief to be a run-of-the-mill combat-type RPG.

Tryst
11th Feb 2011, 19:21
I understand where you are coming from but Garrett has always been a reluctant pawn in a game played by some villain or other. As this means it is now directly affecting him, he has no choice but to deal with it. The common corrupt people of the city are of no interest to him since his own profession is not exactly above board either. You could say, he is no better than they are really.

For an antagonist to use Garrett for their own ends, it needs to be someone powerful and with considerable influence. Since Garrett has his own arsenal of tricks, brought about by information found during his normal activities, bringing down any common antagonist would just be too easy for him. He showed this when he took down a certain chief of police in TMA in about 2 missions (if I recall correctly). Hence, the supervillains that have always been a part of Thief.

In TDS, Gamal went a bit too far even compared to previous antagonists of Thief IMO. However, it was written more to target the kiddies rather than the fans by a team that did little more than very basic research on the original game or so it seems. (Yes, I know TDS fans are going to flame me to hell and back for that comment).

matahari
12th Feb 2011, 12:47
Hi Tryst, thanks for this. That's a good explanation and I take it onboard. I can now see that Thief is both a game and an established story, with its own characters, locations, history, and so on. It will be interesting to see how Thief 4 turns out.

Voodoo
13th Feb 2011, 04:39
I would like the DEVS to go deeper into the mind of Garrett he should remain hidden but more of his persona should be revealed for me that is immersion so you then begin to think and act in a way you know Garrett would and totally change your play style for the better undoubtly.

Tryst
13th Feb 2011, 12:41
I really think that Garretts persona has been revealed a lot in previous games. I don't think you could delve much deeper into it without unearthing some best forgotten things. Without flashbacks, (which I'd rather not see in Thief), or a voicover of some previous mentor saying "use the force Garrett" or something similar I don't see how and more of Garrett could be revealed.

His persona is a basic imprint but it depends on how much you immerse yourself. Full immersion really means Garretts persona is actually yours.

You can't really expand on the persona of a character controlled by a player without impinging on the players actions. For Example: Garrett is able to steal from anyone rich or poor, it's up to you as the player to decide the moral implications of stealing from someone who's obviously quite poor already, do you really need that extra few coins? By having Garrett take over and take the moral high ground, the player has no choice when Garrett does his "uh uh" as you try to life a purse. So, how much restriction would you prefer?

Garrett appears to bury the past, some things are best forgotten and some questions are best left unanswered. He uses what he's learned when he needs it but otherwise, he's just going from day to day doing what he's best at. I honestly think that's what makes the character so appealing, his dark past is still a mystery and if too much is revealed about it, I think the appeal would be lost.

matahari
13th Feb 2011, 15:59
I agree with Tryst. Sometimes less is more. I think that we have an intriguing phenomenon here: a PC game that is begging to be turned into a novel. In other words, the initial characterisation and voice acting for Garrett was so strong, players are drawn in and want to know more. Thing is, the medium at hand is a game not a novel, and games need players not readers. Above all, Thief 4 has to work as a game. It needs replayability and perhaps some customisation. Different people need to be able to approach the game and get somethnig out of it. I think it's all in the title: 'Thief'.

Voodoo
13th Feb 2011, 19:28
Indeed well said both of you. I would honestly say that Thief could be the greatest concept of all time in gaming or certainly close to it, and Garrett is certainly one of the most intriguing protagonists ever to appear.

Vae
13th Feb 2011, 20:31
Whichever way it's done, it needs to be someone who is out of the ordinary, either by magical or technological influences. That is what Thief is. Garrett wouldn't be interested in a corrupt mayor or a bent copper unless it adversely affected him in some way. Even then, he has enough capability to be able to take them down swiftly and decisively which woudn't make for a very long game.

Yes indeed...:thumb:



If Garrett is an underdog in a hostile environment, and if thieving is his only modus operandi, then he doesn't need supernatural villains to occupy his time and talents. In some ways I see the super villain/supernatural villain as a cop out. But real, human, villainy is all around us and is completely sickening in its depth and creativity. Couldn't Garrett confront the kind of issues that are really out there?

Remember, that THIEF resides in the THIEF Universe...a universe in which magic and the supernatural are interwoven with non-magical, ordinary things and creatures, so as to be a part of everyday existence. So, magical reality and supernatural villains are just as "real" as the non-magical elements of that world.

Part of THIEF's unique atmosphere is generated from the mystery and wonder that the supernatural reality provides. There is a sense of untouchable expanse and multi-dimensionality, which would be lost without it.

Magic and the supernatural, properly combined with the non-magical, offer a much greater degree of creative possibilities for story and gameplay.

willim33
14th May 2011, 12:17
We see at the end of Deadly Shadows a girl who steals from Garrett just as Garrett (as a boy) did from the Keeper (Artemus?) at the start of the first Thief. I don't know whether in Thief 4 the protagonist will be Garrett or the girl (presumably older), but wouldn't it be fun if the two were in competition throughout the game?
Let's say you take on the role of the girl, older and taught by Garrett, you might begin to find that the city isn't big or wealthy enough for both of you. Garrett could weave complexity into the plotline, perhaps even become an antagonist.
Perhaps you continue to be Garrett, you might find that the girl is more reckless and dangerous than you think is wise to be around. Perhaps she becomes more fond of the killing and destruction of people's lives than the loot she steals. She could be your new antagonist. Perhaps the city watch don't even know about her and have pinned all her destructive wake on you. You might even find that she has nurtured an alter-ego to become trusted and respected amongst the authorities.

I do quite like the idea of a magically-aided or technology-aided antagonist as has been suggested, but I would also like to express my concern that we do not find another archetypal 'pure evil' character. The world is not strictly categorised by those who are good and those who are evil. Of course there is potential for a twisted mind and so on, but in my opinion, it is important that the people that make this game think carefully about motive and means. Being a pure evil supernatural being with a relentless longing for power and destruction is just a bit unoriginal and a bit of a cop out of explaining how this character has come to be.

Platinumoxicity
14th May 2011, 12:39
I don't understand how we still haven't been able to weed out this specific type of uneducated speculations of possible continuities. Correlation does not imply causation. Do you think that all people that are raised catholic will grow up to want to gas the jews and conquer Europe because that's what one man did? I presume that you also thought that Fight Club was all about fighting and anarchy? Please, try to look at the story and not just part of it before coming up with ideas on how to go forward.

willim33
14th May 2011, 16:35
True, but then again I only have Deadly Shadows to work with.
Are you arguing that it is wrong to suggest that the girl will grow into a master thief as Garrett did just because we see her encounter with Garrett is very similar to Garrett's with the Keeper and because the 4th game is on its way? It is possible to see the encounter merely as a means of tying up the trilogy and rewarding the gamers that bought the first Thief game, but I don't think there is anything wrong with seeing a significance behind leaving us with that image, a poignant correlation (which would fail to imply future trend rather than causation).
The point about correlation is pretty much irrelevant, though, since we are dealing with a partially surreal world and a designed plotline - we are not spectating market behaviour so it seems odd to sit Thief through a statistics class like that.
Your idea (below) isn't bad, perhaps except for its conspiracy-like nature, and the idea that a bigger power was in control all along seems to make onion shells out of the plot, which I think would unrealistically gloss over the complexities of the previous plots and of human nature (creating a world where some people are very easily manipulated and unaware of any puppeteering and where some people are very aware and intelligent and easily can predict and control others' wills, all this being forced upon a world where the now-known-to-have-been-manipulated people seemed intelligent and aware).
There is nothing wrong with the situation developing such that parts of the game are completely new and the whole story does not need to be completely attached to the three released Thief games like an unborn baby and its mother. If there were such completeness to the whole of the series, then it would have to have been planned to an extent right from the start, and if that were the case, there would be very little point to a lot of this forum.



How about this... a secret power older than the keepers that utilizes statistical projection and info gathering to steer the future in whatever way they please had orchestrated all the events leading to Garrett destroying the keepers, because they need the cover of the unwritten times and the disarray caused by the sudden end of the keepers to get away with something huge. The old keeper who first found Garrett on the street was in fact manipulated by this mysterious power to do exactly that. They created the final glyph, planned and executed centuries long chain of events that would lead to the end of the keepers just in time to stop anyone from discovering their true plans from the prophecies that should've applied to the unwritten times, and the presence of the keeper order all those years made the keepers overconfident and prevented them from ever considering the fact that there was something bigger in the background waiting to make it's move.

Moreth
11th Feb 2012, 18:31
I don't know if this been suggested but I'd like to see Deadly Shadows offer scenes that give the players view of the Antagonist from the inside. Where a player would run characters from the Hammers, The Woodsies, even Guards. But in each case as with Garret and others Protagonists, I'm really like see consequences for actions take that would alter the players path within the game. Perhaps even multiple endings.
I'm pretty sure with folks who have discussed Thief in great detail have already suggested similar Ideas.
Personally I dislike the big bad save the world villain. The folks in any city through greed, avarice, vanity or even a plain out lust for power should provide great storylines and challenging tasks. As for the magic and tech mix there are amazing idea builders combined with modern graphics and great writing I'd love to Ghost past guards, get creeped the hell out by areas based on the ideas in Shalebridge, for example sound is to me insanely important when playing. From overhearing conversations to getting mind bent with the great sound of Shalebridge.

By now I've probably begun rambling so I'll end this and hope it helps.
Mo

PS: sorry for the run on sentences meds have me altered atm.

Tucrila
14th Feb 2012, 13:33
I think peolpe should play the first two original Thief before suggesting anything about T4.
I see the number of people in this forum who has only played TDS and i 'm dazzled about that!

If you really like Thief, play the first two games as well. TDS is ok but the true spirit of Thief games relies on those first two games and i honestly believe that the devs working on T4 are also aware of this. So, go back to the originals if you wanna experiment some real thieving.

Back to topic: i figured that a pair of villains could work well and they should be dark, feared and scary villains. They both could conspire together to achieve a dark, evil and misterious plan. The plot could be about a count and a countess who are extremely evil and are planning to open up a portal to a dark dimension and of course Garret somehow would be forced to intervene.

CaptainObvious
16th Feb 2012, 21:32
It'd be nice if Thief 4 wasn't another 'Garrett saves the world/City' deal. A simple villain, like a corrupt, powerhungry noble or mobster with down to earth goals would be a nice change. A normal crime story set in the Thief universe.

You don't always have to fight supernatural beings bent on destroying reality or somesuch.

tarvis79
16th Feb 2012, 21:37
The only problem with that idea is that a normal criminal is child's play for Garrett to handle. See Ramirez. They wouldn't have to be supernatural, but they'd have to be well above "normal" in some fashion in order to pose any real challenge.

CaptainObvious
16th Feb 2012, 21:40
As all other things, it's just a matter of writing.

MsMedieval
18th Feb 2012, 06:25
I don't post much on this forum but I read as much as I can & I agree with some of the posters above: Magic & the supernatural don't have to be the main idea in the new game. It's called "Thief", so make it about stealing. As simple as that. That doesn't mean that I don't want any more creatures or undead but having already 3 types of antagonists (pagans / mechanists - which includes hammers in my opinion / keepers) - the 3 main forces that run / influence the city (nature / man / magic), why not use the Baron as the new bad guy? He's supposed to be the big man who controls everything in the city but he's been invisible. Someone like that could have a lot of power, it would be interesting to see how much of it he could direct at Garrett if he decided to "take care of him once & for all".

That's all I have to say, sorry if my opinion has already been stated anywhere, this board is huge.

Moreth
18th Feb 2012, 07:27
Magic & the supernatural don't have to be the main idea in the new game. It's called "Thief", so make it about stealing. As simple as that. That doesn't mean that I don't want any more creatures or undead but having already 3 types of antagonists (pagans / mechanists - which includes hammers in my opinion / keepers) - the 3 main forces that run / influence the city (nature / man / magic), why not use the Baron as the new bad guy? He's supposed to be the big man who controls everything in the city but he's been invisible. Someone like that could have a lot of power, it would be interesting to see how much of it he could direct at Garrett if he decided to "take care of him once & for all".

That's all I have to say, sorry if my opinion has already been stated anywhere, this board is huge.

First don't be sorry about having and expressing an opinion. Everyone's opinion has the same validity as anyone else. (some may dispute that but that again is their opinion)

I like the idea of the Baron being an antagonist He'd do the job very well and be able to put our hero in many bad situations with simple manipulation of other factions.

I could very well see multiple antagonists in the end game as well and even some that become allies depending on the players choices. The truth is, I honestly think we're going to be surprised about what we find in Thief 4. For myself I most likely will avoid any reviews, any posts even any boards till I've taken my time and played it through. Like all three of the games, the playing is the fun part for me. While the finishing is always somewhat sad in that now I'm replaying or waiting on the next one.

mo