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Hypevosa
30th May 2009, 04:40
The classic "Cheat" of all the thief games. If a level was frustrating you to no ends, or maybe even making you wet yourself, you could easily skip it and just move on. So a simple query, should it return?

I don't know myself

I used to use it to watch all the cut scenes quickly, I loved those cut scenes :D

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 04:43
I voted no, but I never used the cheat.

LightWarriorK
30th May 2009, 04:53
No. I never even knew about that cheat.

Personally, I feel that if you couldn't make it through a level, or chose not to play it, you
- don't deserve to play the next levels
- probably can't handle the next levels
- missed out on the money you'd need to buy supplies for the next level
- can never say you "beat" the game until you go back and play them.

But I'm completely against cheating anyways, so I'm a little tough on cheaters. You completely miss the point of the game when you sidestep the rules. If you don't like the rules, you shouldn't be playing. I always wonder what enjoyment people can possibly get from beathing a game where they cheated.

As for the cut-scene option, it's a lot easier to open the video files on the CD.

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 04:56
I have nothing against people who use cheats in single player games, as that only affects their experience. I might shake my head at them a bit, but if the game developer put codes in the game, they intended for someone to use them.

People who glitch/hack/cheat in multiplayer games are dirty taffers who should be barred from ever buying and playing a game. They ruin other people's experience just for kicks, and that's vile.

Hypevosa
30th May 2009, 05:28
I have nothing against people who use cheats in single player games, as that only affects their experience. I might shake my head at them a bit, but if the game developer put codes in the game, they intended for someone to use them.

People who glitch/hack/cheat in multiplayer games are dirty taffers who should be barred from ever buying and playing a game. They ruin other people's experience just for kicks, and that's vile.

I completely agree with you.

I think they should include it, the other guy gave a good point, it SHAFTS you for your next mission because you have no money to buy supplies. That's a good penalty. But I said they just shouldn't be allowed to use it on the last few levels.

GmanPro
30th May 2009, 06:07
I wanted an option that just said yes.

The fvck people. What if someone just wants to play a specific part of the game? Just to hear what Garrett says or whatever, but they don't have a recent save?

Let them use it whenever they want.

Yaphy
30th May 2009, 09:49
I voted no. They can have the cut scenes in the menu at "extra" or something. And when youve completed the game once, a new button can apear next to the "start a new game button" wich sais " Choose level" and you can click left and right and the misson name will be shown. You can just select the misson you want to play and jump right in.
BUT ONLY WHEN YOUVE COMPLETED THE GAME FROM START TO LAST ONCE!

BoldEnglishman
30th May 2009, 09:59
I wanted an option that just said yes.

The fvck people. What if someone just wants to play a specific part of the game? Just to hear what Garrett says or whatever, but they don't have a recent save?

Let them use it whenever they want.

This - at least having the option of using it for any sort of unforseen circumstances - appeases both parties (as in, you don't have to use it even if it is there). Though personally, I have never used it either - I forced myself to play through the undead levels no matter what was waiting for me.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
30th May 2009, 10:34
I've never used it, but I can see why somebody would use it to get to their favorite level or something. Personally, I hate cheating in games. This isn't just a cheat though, so let it be.

Sierra Oscar
30th May 2009, 11:10
=

Personally, I feel that if you couldn't make it through a level, or chose not to play it, you
- don't deserve to play the next levels


Why not? You paid for the game after all.

I never used it myself, but if it is no hassle to code into the game then I do not see what harm such a cheat would cause - if you don't need it, don't use it.

Hypevosa
30th May 2009, 12:24
Ironically it's tied right now. I think I have to agree with the person who said you bought the game so you deserve all the levels. However, the reason I put the one about not being able to do it for the last few levels, is it would suck if people just ctrl+alt+shift+end-ed to the end of the game and then posted here or something with what looks like a normal thread and spoiled the game for anyone who read it. ARGH, evil spoilers.

Yaphy
30th May 2009, 14:37
Therefor put it in the menu after you completed the game. Some kind of reward. ;)

BlooferLady
30th May 2009, 16:02
I vote yes. I never use it the first time through a game, but after that, it's fair game if you ask me. I have no problem with cheating. It's your own gaming experience, after all. But don't come down on those of us who do like to have cheats available.

My most recent example: after replaying the haunted cathedral, I got stuck in the keeper library and couldn't get out, but the mission wouldn't end because I hadn't completed the loot requirement. Did I want to go back and reload and fight my way through the ghouls just to find a candlestick? No! I just ended the mission, since I've beaten it before. Once you've played a game, it's your sandbox, to do with as you please. I like the idea of having the skip-level cheat available after you beat the game once.

And I'd like to meet the person who hasn't used the rosebud cheat in the Sims.

Jilly The Taffer
30th May 2009, 17:41
I voted yes.

Players should have the willpower to not use it if it's their first run through.

But for future references (quotes, cutscenes, walkthrough details) we will need it.

So yes. Bring back the cheat.

Whether the individual player uses it or not is upto them.

Platinumoxicity
30th May 2009, 18:50
I just ghosted "Into the Maw of Chaos" on expert and I had to use the cheat because I didn't have the 1 moss arrow required to shut down the portal. Very irritating.

GmanPro
30th May 2009, 20:38
Therefor put it in the menu after you completed the game. Some kind of reward. ;)

Why? What if you get a corrupted save or run into a game-ruining bug? You should be able to skip levels if and when you want to.

xDarknessFallsx
30th May 2009, 21:48
I voted yes. Give the player the choice.. plus it's just an accepted part of the series now. There were a couple boring parts in T2 for me when originally playing and having that option was nice. If this wasn't an option, I might've stopped playing T2 indefinitely.

As for re-watching all the cutscenes, if you use this CTRL+ALT+etc thing for it, you could instead just navigate to the Thief folder on your hard drive and watch the video files. I hope Th4f allows this, too.

I like the "jump to whatever level you want after beating it" idea. More games need rewards like this after you beat them. Havng no reward for beating a game seems odd to me. Allowing you to view all the cutscenes from an in-game menu after beating it would be nice.

crazy_bex
30th May 2009, 21:58
I think they should come back. I mean it doesnt cause any inconvenience to the ones who want to play it without cheating so I cant see why it cant come back. It is especially helpful to inexperienced players and younger players because when I first played TDP I was only about 13 and not particularly good at Thief and I just couldn't do some of the missions because they were too difficult. Now I could do them easily but I'm also alot older and have more experience at playing Thief. Also if younger players find missions too scary they could skip it - I couldn't have seen myself playing the cradle to the end at 13 somehow!

DarthEnder
31st May 2009, 07:11
I voted yes cause there are some levels in T1 I hate, and I don't play them ever again.

I mean, ****, I played through Thief Gold and I had no idea what Fire Shadows were because I skipped Bonehoard and Cathedral every time because I played them back when I only had normal Thief 1 and I didn't like them.

LightWarriorK
31st May 2009, 20:10
Why not? You paid for the game after all.

I guess I have a deeper purpose for my video games.

While the intent of playing a game is to have fun, really, what's the point if you aren't getting better? Who cares if you beat a game if you cheated your way through?

Playing a game without challenge is temporary fun. You can enjoy it while you're doing it.

Getting better through a difficult challenge, persevering, and surpassing the challenge that was built into the game yields lasting satisfaction and pride.

My opinion is, not you did NOT buy the right to beat the game. You bought the right to play the game. You have to earn the right to beat it.

Now, don't get me wrong; some of the reasons people gave here are perfectly fine. If you've played through a level before and didn't enjoy it, then sure, skip it. My hatred of cheating come from a situation like this:

Example Player: "I just beat Thief! I'm so great! I'm better than everyone who hasn't beaten it!"

Me: "Did you use the Ctrl+Alt+Shift+End cheat?"

Example Player: "Yeah, I did, so what? I'm still great!"

And no, that player isn't. The laming of the whole video game industry lies in giving players a false sense of accomplishment that they didn't earn through perseverance. There's a difference between having fun and being an accomplished player.


It is especially helpful to inexperienced players and younger players because when I first played TDP I was only about 13 and not particularly good at Thief and I just couldn't do some of the missions because they were too difficult.

And no offense, but if the missions were too hard for you, then you shouldn't have been able to pass them by. If you had the humility at 13 to realize this, and not say you had beaten TDP until you went back and finished them, great. You probably see my point. If you conisdered yourself a great Thief player because you beat The Trickster when you weren't able to finish every level leading up to that point, then you didn't really beat him.

Anyways, I know that I'm on the outside in my opinion. I actually miss the days games were challenging and meant something to finish. If you spend hours a day playing that doesn't test your skill level, doesn't make you a better gamer, and gives you no satisfaction to finish, then why do it? You're just wasting your time.

*sigh* Ah well. Maybe I'm becoming one of those old farts. "Back in my day, games were REALLY tough. If you died, an electric shock came through the controller!"

ToMegaTherion
31st May 2009, 20:23
I guess some people don't find it so much fun to be stuck on a particular level for ages knowing there's a good chance there's plenty of playable content just around the corner that they'd be able to have fun with if they could just get past this annoying bit.

I've always been a bit confused by the idea that I ought to want to finish a game. I'll play for as long as it's fun, if the last mission isn't fun, I'll just stop playing it because there's no reason for me to continue (still haven't finished Soulforge, what's the point?).

There's a big difference between wanting to play the next level and "thinking you're great". It's especially understandable to want a level cheat in Dark Project since difficulty didn't really increase monotonically through the game.

Zahr Dalsk
31st May 2009, 23:11
I say yes, on the grounds that there's nothing wrong with having it, and this whole business of taking away things just for the sake of simplifying is what made Thief DS, and most next-gen sequels these days, so horrible in the first place.

Thief games were never supposed to be about reaching the end and that's all. They were about the process of actually playing the levels. So if someone wants to skip a level? Who cares, let them skip, it's their own decision.

Danie1
1st Jun 2009, 16:22
I say yes. I like finishing all my objectives, but when I spend 30 minutes looking for 15 more loot to finish one objective, I get very impatient.

Yaphy
1st Jun 2009, 17:14
They should put in some sort of "lock" that blockes the cheat if you haven completed the level once. So you can skip levels that you already have completed but not skip forward the game. In that way people that gets corrupt save files can still jump back to where he was.
It will still be a reward for those who do complete the game, they can play every level they want to.


I say yes. I like finishing all my objectives, but when I spend 30 minutes looking for 15 more loot to finish one objective, I get very impatient.

Then you should play at a easier diffculty. No need to play at hard or expert if you cant make it without skipp the whole level...just my thought.

imported_van_HellSing
1st Jun 2009, 17:18
Pfft, why would you need to skip levels if you've got regenerating health?

LightWarriorK
1st Jun 2009, 17:28
I say yes. I like finishing all my objectives, but when I spend 30 minutes looking for 15 more loot to finish one objective, I get very impatient.

Then you didn't complete the level. Sorry, but it's black and white. You either beat the level or you didn't. "Almost" only counts for hand-grenades and horseshoes.


Then you should play at a easier diffculty. No need to play at hard or expert if you cant make it without skipp the whole level...just my thought.

Preceisely.:thumb: Thief is all about patience anyways. If you run through a level like a kid with ADHD, you're going to be dead very quickly.


They should put in some sort of "lock" that blockes the cheat if you haven completed the level once. So you can skip levels that you already have completed but not skip forward the game. In that way people that gets corrupt save files can still jump back to where he was.
It will still be a reward for those who do complete the game, they can play every level they want to.

This would be acceptable to me. I would even take it the next step and do like a Half-Life 2 setup, where once you've beaten a level, you can play that level from the menu whenever you want. Of course, that all depends on just how open-ended Thief 4 is.

ToMegaTherion
1st Jun 2009, 17:41
Once again this assumption that everyone has to care about "beating the level", or that this should somehow be necessary before you can enjoy all the other stuff that you paid for. I don't particularly care if not being interested in wandering round for ages trying to find a little bit of loot makes me Bad At The Game. What I want to do is play all the good bits, if there are bits that I think are excrutiatingly dull then I want some sort of option to avoid them if possible. Saying that I ought to be really bored and angry for ages just to prove some sort of inconsequential point is utterly perverse.

It's entertainment, not some sort of bizarre competition with rules inflicted upon everyone by some Voices of Reason. It's thoroughly absurd. Imagine if I couldn't skip to the next song because I hadn't "beaten" the previous song (especially imagine if the previous song was 20 minutes long and pretty dull). Imagine if my DVD self-destructs if I dare to skip a scene. I'm wanting fun, not a strange and boring ritual in order to prove a point I don't even care about.

Yaphy
1st Jun 2009, 17:49
Once again this assumption that everyone has to care about "beating the level", or that this should somehow be necessary before you can enjoy all the other stuff that you paid for. I don't particularly care if not being interested in wandering round for ages trying to find a little bit of loot makes me Bad At The Game. What I want to do is play all the good bits, if there are bits that I think are excrutiatingly dull then I want some sort of option to avoid them if possible. Saying that I ought to be really bored and angry for ages just to prove some sort of inconsequential point is utterly perverse.

It's entertainment, not some sort of bizarre competition with rules inflicted upon everyone by some Voices of Reason. It's thoroughly absurd. Imagine if I couldn't skip to the next song because I hadn't "beaten" the previous song (especially imagine if the previous song was 20 minutes long and pretty dull). Imagine if my DVD self-destructs if I dare to skip a scene. I'm wanting fun, not a strange and boring ritual in order to prove a point I don't even care about.

Dont you care about the story?! I see your point but I dont agree. And by the way, Thief is never EVER boring or dull...

LightWarriorK
1st Jun 2009, 17:54
I love the entitlement attitude.:rolleyes:

I'll say again, even though it's my own opinion. You pay for the right to play the game. You have to earn the right to beat it. That includes playing through the hard and boring parts before getting to the "good" parts.

What exactly makes them "good" if it didn't take you any effort to get there? Does watching The Trickster die from the fake Eye mean anything if you didn't suffer to get to that point? No, that's no better than watching TV.

Games used to be a higher form of entertainment than just sitting around and watching a movie or listening to music (per your examples). You used to have to earn your entertainment....and that's what makes it worthwhile.

I actually pity people who think they can just have the "good" stuff handed to them without any effort. There's just no point.

But again, that's all just my opinion.

EDIT: You know, if this going to be the attitude, why even have a level structure in the first place?

ToMegaTherion
1st Jun 2009, 17:57
Edit: This is to Yaphy.

By the way, wandering around looking for objects is actually pretty dull to me, since if I've reached the stage where all I'm doing is looking for loot I've either eliminated all the hostiles, so the level is actually empty of play, or I'm trying to do it without eliminating the hostiles, in which case it's just incredibly annoying to look for the last bits while repeatedly avoiding everyone.

Personally I consider the option to adjust required loot amount to be a much more important feature than a level skip, but that's because loot hunting is the only reason I'd skip a Thief level, since it's actually quite difficult to get stuck in any other way, except perhaps on expert in Metal Age.

This is to LightWarriorK: Explain why it is sensible for me to be exceptionally bored to make a stupid point? Searching for the last bit of loot is, to me, nothing other than deadly dull. Your efforts to equate "being challenged" with "being incredibly bored doing something you don't enjoy" are not working.

LightWarriorK
1st Jun 2009, 18:03
This is to LightWarriorK: Explain why it is sensible for me to be exceptionally bored to make a stupid point? Searching for the last bit of loot is, to me, nothing other than deadly dull. Your efforts to equate "being challenged" with "being incredibly bored doing something you don't enjoy" are not working.

If you're incredibly bored and not enjoying the game....honestly, it sounds like you're playing the wrong game. Thief has ALWAYS been about the loot hunting (EDIT: among other things of course).

EDIT 2: No part of Thief, even Expert, requires you to hunt for every last bit of loot. Even in TMA, I typically end up with at least a couple hundred in loot above what Expert requires, and that's just through normal searching as I go through the level. No offence, but if you're getting bored and unhappy and can't find loot, you're either far too impatient or are just awful at loot finding. As Yaphy said earlier, if you can't find the loot, maybe you should just try playing on a difficulty that doesn't require as much.

ToMegaTherion
1st Jun 2009, 18:08
That's a good idea, let's only play games we enjoy every second of, or possibly play games and be bored by certain aspects of them, let's not at all realise that there are some aspecs of games we enjoy and some aspects we don't and take action to maximise enjoyment. That would be a foolish idea! In fact, let's even ignore the possibility that everyone doesn't enjoy 100% of the elements of a game, and instead pick a single element that everyone MUST enjoy or not enjoy the game, because we've used caps to emphasise our opinion and NOBODY can argue with caps.

MasterTaffer
1st Jun 2009, 18:12
Keep the debate civil kids, or so help me God I'll turn this car right around...

LightWarriorK
1st Jun 2009, 18:14
I think I've said all I can think of on the topic. ToMegaTherion and I don't see eye to eye.

MasterTaffer
1st Jun 2009, 18:17
Yes, well, nobody ever does around here anyway. Everyone wants Eidos Montreal to listen to the "fans," but the "fans" can never agree on anything so I have no idea how they expect them too.

Yaphy
1st Jun 2009, 18:18
Well, I see your point ToMegaTherion. Maybe they should bring back the cheat. I aint going to use it, but after all the game is not only for me. If you want to skip part of the game, then fine. You should at least be able to do it. Its not like its going to wreck the whole game for me. I just dont see the idea of getting to the good places without some struggle. The dull parts in the game is there for a reason...

ToMegaTherion
1st Jun 2009, 18:23
I think it's more that I'm just not particularly interested in finding the loot. I mean, sometimes loot is placed in such assy places (yes, The Haunted Cathedral, I'm looking at you here!). You sometimes have to go really out of your way to find all the required loot. And the 90% requirements in Deadly Shadows is a bit high for me.

Like I've said, I'd be much happier with a way to reduce the loot requirement.

What I find confusing is not the idea that somebody finds it interesting to deal with the default requirements of a game without recourse to modding or cheating, but that someone wants everyone to have that point of view and doesn't want to allow them their preferences.

Hypevosa
1st Jun 2009, 19:34
wow, this produced alot more discussion than I thought it would XD

It seems that there's still a virtual tie... It sounds like something in the middle is a good ways to go.

Knight
6th Jun 2009, 20:48
In place of ctrl+alt+shift+end should be a menu cheat, u should press esc, and type in the menu the cheat. (Not ctrlaltshiftend, some random cheat name.)

Sapare
7th Jun 2009, 03:20
I vote yes for a number of reasons, one of them being that if the mission has a bug,(I had that before just before the end of the 2nd thief 1 mission, one of the things you need to pick up disappeared) and other things can happen, like if you die and want to press quick load and by accident press quick save(happened to my brother allot) and another reason would be that if you play a mission on expert, and you done all the things you need to but just can't find the 100 or 200 last loot you need to fin to finish the mission.(its highly frustrating in some missions)

SlyFoxx
7th Jun 2009, 03:28
I can't believe the NO people. It's a GAME! What the heck do you care what somebody else does with it? BTW...you can always edit the uder.cfg file to add starting cash or begin at whatever level you desire. Guess we ought to disable that too. God forbid I do something with MY game that you disaprove.

lefty
7th Jun 2009, 19:18
Once, I was almost to the end of a particularly lengthy level in T2- I think I literally had to unlock a door and walk outside. But as I was sneaking around the back of a mechanist, I got stuck in game world on some geometry. Couldn't budge at all. What was I to do? play the whole missions over? I wasn't ready for that. I used the end level cheat reluctantly and moved on in the game.

voted yes.

Shadow Blade
8th Jun 2009, 15:04
Once, I was almost to the end of a particularly lengthy level in T2- I think I literally had to unlock a door and walk outside. But as I was sneaking around the back of a mechanist, I got stuck in game world on some geometry. Couldn't budge at all. What was I to do? play the whole missions over? I wasn't ready for that. I used the end level cheat reluctantly and moved on in the game.

voted yes.


Im sure that in new games that is unlikely to happen but ive been suprised before (I was killed by a break dancing body in splintercell double agent :eek:. . . Thats something you dont see everyday)

huzi73
8th Jun 2009, 16:11
I dont see whats the whole point to this. I've never come across a review that marks down a game because you can skip a level if you choose so by pressing four buttons.If you dont like the cheat, dont use it! If you feel pity for those who are scared, than make a petition for devs to make a cheat that turns all undead into guards, or cotton stuffed bunnies or... Whatever.The point is,if the cheat is made, and you choose not to use it, it wont affect your game at all.

Jilly The Taffer
9th Jun 2009, 16:14
You all haven't ripped off DP, which HAS the cheat. For most of us, it's our favourite game.

But your fouling over Thief IV, which MIGHT have the cheat.

If we want Thief IV to be as much alike with DP and MA. Then, let EM add in the Skip Cheat. Which is optional may I add. You all have willpower yes?

Hypevosa
9th Jun 2009, 18:42
You all have willpower yes?

Alot seem to have willpower in their own actions, but want to enforce their will on others.

kaekaelyn
9th Jun 2009, 23:07
I don't really care. I don't care if someone "unworthy" brags about having beaten the game. It's just a game, it's not like it's some sort of great honor to have beaten it anyway, with or without cheats. If they say they've beaten the game but Ctrl+Alt+Shift+End-ed through the whole thing, I would consider that to be dishonest, it doesn't affect me in any way, because it's not something really important to me to be able to have my "bragging rights."

And I'm not worried about spoilers. With or without cheats, someone is going to play through the game as fast as possible on the lowest difficulty setting in order to ruin the ending for others, but that doesn't bother me, either. When Thief 4 comes out, I'm not going to read anything about it until I've finished the game. I'm just going to play, and hopefully enjoy myself.

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 23:10
alot seem to have willpower in their own actions, but want to enforce their will on others.

Thou shalt break thy breakfast egg from the narrow end, heathen!

Hypevosa
10th Jun 2009, 01:04
^^ this made me laugh out loud.

ToMegaTherion
10th Jun 2009, 08:56
Nice one, Taffer :)