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Yotun
29th May 2009, 01:27
I find myself disagreeing with so many of the things said in these forums. It seems to me there's different ideas on what a 'sequel' is, and what it should be. I just wanted to put my own views out there, though I know people won't agree with them, and hopefully, convince a few people.

Sequels must, by definition, be some sort of continuation of previous work. If they are completely unrelated there's no point to calling them a sequel. To me, it seems there can be two ways to do a sequel - continue on with the gameplay and dynamics of the game - and/or, continue on with the story.

What I PERSONALLY want from Thief 4, is that they continue the gameplay, the spirit, the dynamics and the essence of Thief. Its in first person. You hide in shadows, You have a blackjack. You have an assortment of arrows which include water, rope, moss, fire arrows. You have huge expansive levels. You have a very distinct role - you are a thief, not a killer, not an assasin. You're not playing an RPG game. You are playing in a dark, atmospheric, steampunk city that mixes both technology and magic. That sort of thing.

I want reasonable, enhancement to this gameplay dynamic - enhance the sneaking system perhaps and the use of light and shadow, the AI of guards, perhaps add new arrow types, MAYBE make the game character a TINY amount more flexible (DO NOT TURN IT INTO ASSASINS CREED). But not fundamental changes from the original dynamics that turn Thief into a gameplay it is not. No action elements, no RPG elements, no repeatable missions, etc.


Now however we come to the topic of the continuation of the story. To me the Thief trilogy was a very story driven series of games. It had the story structure of a well crafted tale, a definite story arc, it moved from one extreme to the other, and came all the way around to closure. It had a structure that made SENSE, especially in the world where it was set. You explored chaos in the first game, order in the second, and returned to balance in the third. It was a journey that was definite and logical.

What Thief did NOT try to do, was be a soap opera game, or have a soap opera story. It was not Tomb Raider or Super Mario or Donkey Kong. It did not have a hero that you could recycle and throw into completely new environments and tales. Its structure, and the use of Garrett as a character was not designed to have him thrown into new situations all the time, make him a constant character to throw into unconnected unrelated adventures with no overarching story arc that comes close to reaching closure - just to satisfy a fan need for more of the same.

Another game I loved was Baldur's Gate. It was another game that reached closure with BGII:ToB. And I think to myself, would I enjoy it now if there was a BGIII, in which you play your character from BGII again, and somehow found yourself thrust into a new adventure, or have some silly mechanic used to explain how you are put in a new situation (for example, your powers are somehow dran from you). Of course not! I would love to see a BGIII, as a game with the same structure, design, and gameplay philosophy, but not a continuation of the previous story, because that tale reached its closure. To do otherwise would for me be an insult to the previous games, as it would somehow ruin the idea of a definite story arc to turn the series into a never ending soap opera to milk off fans.

Similarly, imagine we get Half Life 3... The story ends, the plot and story arcs reaches closure--- and then suddenly Half Life 4 is announced, to feature gordon freeman again, in a completely unrelated 'new' adventure. That just would be an insult to the idea that the games ever saught to be a proper, defined tale with a proper defined story, and something else than pure cash cows for obsessed fan boys who refuse to let go.


What I'm trying to say is - I don't want Garrett back. Garrett's story is over, and to me, to have him return would be an insult to the work, writing and brilliance of the original games. IT would be turning Garrett as the hero of a properly constructed tale, to the Lara Croft and Super Mario of a soap opera, cash-focused game franchise. Garrett's tale is over - fan missions are all well and good for fans who want more in out of canon adventures, but fan missions are not official sequels. Any new game with Garrett cannot fit in. It will either be after the end of the first 3 games, which means you ruin the point of having a closure to a 3way balanced trilogy, or otherwise you start saying 'let's put this adventure in between, and this adventure from prequels' in which case as I said, you just turn garrett into the generic thief to throw into new games and settings.



some of the fans here seem to me like the fans of those never ending fantasy epic which have reached volume 13 and are still going with the same hero who just somehow doesn't finish his story. They're the fans who won't accept closure because they just want more and more and more of the same, and don't realise that the series has devolved to a soap opera, and everybody else around them is making fun of them and the series for the piece of junk it's been made to. How many times have I heard for such series 'Yeah the first 3 books were good when there was still some sense of direction and a plot heading a specific way, but then they became more of the same, with nothing changing per volume, and the author just sucking in cash from the obsessed fan boys'.

Is that the amount of regard you hold Thief to? That you do not care about its effectiveness as a good story so you can get more of the same?


At the least for me, if Garrett is in it, let it be so that in some way or another he is retired so that he's not there in Thief 5. But don't turn Garrett into a franchise. He deserves better.

Hexahedron
29th May 2009, 02:05
Is Garret really that important^ Well, he was in the other games, But a new twist could bring new life to the series. Getting the essence of what Thief was its what matter the most. The shadows, the unpleasant feeling while hiding in the dark while guards pass by, the sound effects, the eerie soundtrack.

GmanPro
29th May 2009, 02:07
If they decide to change the protagonist, it will not be Thief 4 in my book. But rather, just a spin off game

WhatsHisFace
29th May 2009, 02:08
If they decide to change the protagonist, it will not be Thief 4 in my book. But rather, just a spin off game

I'd rather have a spin-off, so the quality of the Thief trilogy won't be marred.

Thieffanman
29th May 2009, 04:48
I think Eidos will continue to use Garrett as the protagonist, and Thief 4 will be an awesome game in its own right. Besides, there are still many elements left over from the previous three games that Eidos can draw on and expand:

-Pagans,
-Hammerites and their factions,
-What's left of the Keepers after the glyphs disappeared,
-The Shalebridge Cradle is still standing upright ;),

. . .and things that no one here has even considered yet. Garrett's not dead yet, there is still so much more left for him to steal ;).

I liked Baldur's Gate and BGII; I agree with you on those. However, I don't think a comparison can be drawn between "Thief" and "Half-Life": In the last Half-Life installment, the player was left with a cliffhanger ending-- people are quite eagerly waiting (myself included) for the next Half-Life game because Gordon Freeman's story just isn't complete yet. True, Garrett's story does look like it ended during the final scenes of TDS, however, that doesn't mean that Garrett's story *is* over . . . but it *kind of* looks like he would take on an apprentice. Where that goes, is anybody's guess.

We just have to take it on faith that Eidos knows what they're doing.

--Thieffanman

ToMegaTherion
29th May 2009, 09:05
There are just so many perfectly good and popular sequels that use different protagonists that I don't at all understand why a similar change would make it "not Thief".

HellionKal
29th May 2009, 10:48
I guess certain game series are heavily tied to the protagonist, and I find it completely understandable. For example, imagine "HITMAN" games without Agent 47. They might possibly be good games, excellent even. But some of the fun just "wouldn't be there" for some people (not really a fitting analogy now that I think of it, I can't really think of any other game series where the protagonist is as prominent as Garrett is in the THIEF series; maybe Duke Nukem games or Indiana Jones games?).

As far as Baldur's Gate is concerned, I think the analogy is not so fitting. In "Throne of Bhaal" we see the Bhaalspawn's story come to a definite and absolute conclusion plot-wise. You either destroy the Throne, or become the new God of Murder. Either way, there isn't anywhere for that protagonist to advance towards in a sequel. And that's why (and also due to many many many many legal/copyright issues with Atari, but anyway) Black Isle's canceled Baldur's Gate 3 project would a) not be related to the Bhaalspawn at all, b) possibly not even take place in the Sword Coast.

That's not the case with Garrett, IMO. The City has changed by the time TDS ends, sure, and so has Garrett. But that change does not really forbid/hinder him in any way to continue doing what he's done for the past years, and therefore doesn't "block" him so-to speak plot-wise to appear in at least one more sequel.

LightWarriorK
29th May 2009, 13:40
Good post, Yotun.:thumb:

I don't agree with everything 100%, but I don't need to. You still were very clear and concise and made your point well.

Honestly, I need to hear from the Devs about what they're doing before I can decide whether I'm happy or not with what Thief 4 will be. There's just too many unknowns right now.

As long as the Devs are reading this board, and as long as they reach out and communicate with us before they're too deep into development, I think we'll be ok.

Jilly The Taffer
29th May 2009, 13:45
If they decide to change the protagonist, it will not be Thief 4 in my book. But rather, just a spin off game

Yes indeed.

Maybe a protagonist change will be good. Drawing in a new audience, the dawn of a new era for a new Master Thief ect.

But. It will be like taking Lara Croft from Tomb Raider. She IS Tomb Raider.
Just as Garrett IS Thief.

However, if Garrett is the protagonist in Thief 4, and is obviously getting on a bit agewise, then I think we won't argue if he isn't present in Thief 5, 6, 7.
He's done his time, it will be wise if we cut him some slack then. Let him retire in style or disappear and fade into legend.

Then a new Thief will rise. They should call these games something different though.
'Thief: The next generation' or what not :lol:

A note: My speculation on Thief 5, 6 and 7 ect... is just that. Speculation. And idea. A theory. We may never get that far.
It's just merely a 'what if...'

esme
29th May 2009, 14:05
...But. It will be like taking Lara Croft from Tomb Raider. She IS Tomb Raider.
Just as Garrett IS Thief...

yup bit like an 007 movie without James Bond

I've got my movie analogy head on today

clock12345
29th May 2009, 14:18
i think if thief could have a little bit RPG elements and little bit like assassins creed (i mean to the jumping) but dont make it really assassins creed just make it with the ability to climb everywhere thief's have experience to climb everywhere and make it little rpg element like if monster dies he have's money or food or Etc... you can upgrade your weapons and at the beggining of the game you can chose to play at 3th person or 1th person it shows you a demostraison and if you dont see all the stealth games are 3th person please make the game with an open city a big city to explore many easter eggs and secrets hidden weapons and etc make the game a bit like gta little bit there are horse riding and if you fell at the blackalley there can bee a bandit or group of bandits in the game you can chose the sides you wanna be the evil side or the good side you will have an bag where you collect all the stuff you can collect rocks and threw them to distract the guards and sometimes there will be an eating planets and there is a mission where you get caught and they send you to the prison and you'll have to break the prison also thief 4 should have a multiplayer (theres a game that looks like thief its called thievery its in multiplayer} at the multiplayer you can make co-op play campagin you can make thief match that the thief who collect's the most loots wins thiefs vs guards that the thief's have to steal all the loot's before the guards kill them. :=} please make this game like this even more better :+)

Direlord
29th May 2009, 18:52
Yes indeed.

Maybe a protagonist change will be good. Drawing in a new audience, the dawn of a new era for a new Master Thief ect.

But. It will be like taking Lara Croft from Tomb Raider. She IS Tomb Raider.
Just as Garrett IS Thief.

However, if Garrett is the protagonist in Thief 4, and is obviously getting on a bit agewise, then I think we won't argue if he isn't present in Thief 5, 6, 7.
He's done his time, it will be wise if we cut him some slack then. Let him retire in style or disappear and fade into legend.

Then a new Thief will rise. They should call these games something different though.
'Thief: The next generation' or what not :lol:

A note: My speculation on Thief 5, 6 and 7 ect... is just that. Speculation. And idea. A theory. We may never get that far.
It's just merely a 'what if...'

I agree with this but assuming there will be a Thief 5 6 7 etc with a change or protaganist. changing it now in Thief 4 after the trilogy of Garrett seems to make the best sense. If you continue with Garrett but end his story it might feel tacked on depending on how good the writing actually was.

What they could do to is make a spiritual successor to the Thief series calling it something else that way you can have a completely new world and main character. Even if they call it Thief (something). Still if they have any plans to change the character I think the best bet is just to do it now with a small transition of having Garrett in the game in someway but you still play a new person. I've been in favor of the girl at the end of TDS if they go that route.

I would add though I support the most of bringing back Garrett and keeping him the main character for the the Thief games. Garrett to the Thief series is like Stephen Russell is to Garrett IMO. You just can't have one without the other.

MasterTaffer
29th May 2009, 19:16
I don't want a rehash of Thief 2. I don't want old plot elements to be the focus. I don't want the return of the Mechanists. I don't want Constantine to step out of the shadows and go "Are you surprised, Mr. Garrett?" I don't want Constantine, Karras and Gamall to be ressurected and start some Legion of Doom knock off.

I want a sequel, a fresh experience, a new antagonist, and an original story.

Yotun
29th May 2009, 20:48
Yes indeed.

Maybe a protagonist change will be good. Drawing in a new audience, the dawn of a new era for a new Master Thief ect.

But. It will be like taking Lara Croft from Tomb Raider. She IS Tomb Raider.
Just as Garrett IS Thief.

However, if Garrett is the protagonist in Thief 4, and is obviously getting on a bit agewise, then I think we won't argue if he isn't present in Thief 5, 6, 7.
He's done his time, it will be wise if we cut him some slack then. Let him retire in style or disappear and fade into legend.

Then a new Thief will rise. They should call these games something different though.
'Thief: The next generation' or what not :lol:

A note: My speculation on Thief 5, 6 and 7 ect... is just that. Speculation. And idea. A theory. We may never get that far.
It's just merely a 'what if...'

Yes, but that is the point - I think Thief is a different type of game as far as story is concerned, than Tomb Raider, or James Bond (in movie terms).

You see, Tomb Raider is the classic, never ending series - Lara Croft is just there, to be thrown in into another adventure, for sequel after sequel after sequel. But that means she can never have a properly constructed tale around her - with a beginning, a middle and an end, an a central theme around her. She is stuck there in perpetuity, always returning, never quite finishing her character arc, never quite having a main theme, or a point to existance other than to come back into another game. The same with James Bond. Bond is always the same. There is no real story arc around him. Its just another new adventure, another different plot, with James Bond thrown into it. you cannot talk about the 'tale' or the 'story' or the 'message' of James Bond, or Lara Croft as characters - because there is never any completed story centered purely around them. The story is not about them, its about the situations they find themselves at. As such they become mere generics to be thrown in - and the story never quite is as fulfilling as it could be.

That was in essence my point though. You COULD turn Garrett into the Lara Croft of the Thief world, or you could have a complete, proper, 'The story of Garrett'. I'd like the second rather than the first option.

Platinumoxicity
29th May 2009, 22:28
I don't understand why there's all this talk of "Garrett not being in Thief 4". I mean... where did idea that even come from originally? It isn't like everyone in the Valve forums are speculating whether Gordon Freeman returns in HL2 EP3. The whole idea of removing Garrett has been repeated in speculation for so long that people are actually starting to believe it. It's insane! Stephen Russell was in Fallout 3 in a pretty insignificant role, so he doesn't seem to be incredibly busy nowadays. Don't spread baseless rumors about Garrett's removal.

It's like id software released an rts game that was about carebears and pirates and they said:
"So, how do you as a fan of the last 4, like it so far?"
"What? Last 4 what?"
"Quake. This is Quake 5. We just didn't put all the "Quake" and all the "5" on the name, because we wanted to appeal to new audiences."
"But this game is rubbish! Where are the Strogg? Where's my FPS game?"
"Back in 2005, perhaps?"

Hypevosa
29th May 2009, 22:33
I think there is a point at which developers beat a dead horse, and some seem to think that 3 times is a good number, and others don't get it after about 8 games. I really don't know when Garrett's story is done. 2 games certainly had me wanting more, but the reason I think most people want another one with Garrett in it is because they all believe TDS to be so different that it shouldn't have been called thief 3. Personally, I like the way the story flowed, I liked the ending of the main story, but I can't help but feel the same as the others... it wasn't enough like the original thiefs to really allow me to feel complete closure. I think that maybe for this game he should go at it one more time, just for old times' sake, and then end up retiring at the end, putting all his skills and training to a successor for future games. I'd feel it would do him more justice to allow him to retire, than to assume he's endlessly running about the city maintaining balance or something. It doesn't feel to me like the way Garrett should go out, or would want to... he always did talk about wanting to retire.

I can also however, see them killing Garrett part way through the game and giving you control over his apprentice. I don't know how I'd feel about it... it would probably depend on how they ended up offing him.

You also can't help that people are nostalgic over the first games. And especially because Garrett was such a defined and different character than what was already out there. He was probably one of the first well characterized antiheroes. He didn't want to be one damnit, he just wanted to get enough swag to keep living, and to retire.

MasterTaffer
29th May 2009, 22:44
I actually really like Deadly Shadow's story a lot. It had unique twists, kept you guessing and had interesting charecters. Not to mention I found Gamall to be a very interesting antagonist, and her being revealed in the Cradle genuinely shocked me. The plot played out as an elaborate "who dun it" mystery that I very much enjoyed. It also touched on the concept of fate a lot better than the previous games, even though it was a concept in all three games.

Out of all the stories in the games, I've always liked The Metal Age's the least. I knew who the antagonist was and a basic idea of his scheme by the end of the fifth level, and Viktoria's reveal was obvious for me by the mission "Trace the Courier." There was so little mystery left by the third act that I felt underwhelmed by the end.

hellwalker
29th May 2009, 23:28
Good post Yotun, I'd hate series turning into soap opera, with just more of the same with each game.
Game will loose all it's style and appeal for me if it's turned into something like TV series. I just know it will, even if "more of the same" is done well enough. Same thing troubles me with "Song of ice and fire" series, I was disappointed with the fourth book, even though it was of the same quality as first three, It started loosing style.

If they can think of some great way to return Garrett that feels believable and respectful of the trilogy, I'm all for it. If it's even remotely cheesy I sure am not going to close my eyes on this and pretend it never happened, just to have Garrett back.

oh and Garrett's story doesn't have to end, We can hear about his fate/exploits through the eyes of new protagonist.

Yotun
30th May 2009, 01:25
Good post Yotun, I'd hate series turning into soap opera, with just more of the same with each game.
Game will loose all it's style and appeal for me if it's turned into something like TV series. I just know it will, even if "more of the same" is done well enough. Same thing troubles me with "Song of ice and fire" series, I was disappointed with the fourth book, even though it was of the same quality as first three, It started loosing style.

If they can think of some great way to return Garrett that feels believable and respectful of the trilogy, I'm all for it. If it's even remotely cheesy I sure am not going to close my eyes on this and pretend it never happened, just to have Garrett back.

oh and Garrett's story doesn't have to end, We can hear about his fate/exploits through the eyes of new protagonist.

You know, when I was writing the post, I was specifically thinking about what happened to song of Ice and Fire, but didn't want to mention it specifically, because I wasn't sure how many people would be familiar with the series. You are right about the series of course, and I'm worried about it turning into a Wheel of Time.

But as an aside from the main point of the thread, because as I said I had that series in mind when writing the thread, and I want to vent - I disagree with you on one point - the fourth book was NOT of the same quality as the first 3. Like I said, I just have to get this out, so sorry for the people who don't know what I'm talking about - the 4th book was awful and it left me really, really upset at what had happened. The book is filled with pages upon pages of absolutely nothing happening at all - especially the points where Brienne is just wondering about aimlessly in the countryside. Also, many times in the past George Martin had said he was not sure how the tale would end and he was writing it as he was going. IT REALLY shows in the fourth book, because it's filled with elements and sub threads that Martin OBVIOUSLY came up with writing the 4th book, and which were obviously not part of the world in the other 3 books. The whole line about the new order of militant church followers (and the backstory about how they existed and were ended by a previous king, a backstory on the church and the world that apparently never managed to come up in the first trilogy) - the whole plot about Cercei's old prophecy, and the stuff at the Iron Islands. I felt most of those developments were badly written, cliched, and added completely unnecesary threads to an already complecated story (which by becoming even more complicated became completely unbelievable).
See, the original idea was Martin would write the first trilogy, which had reached a sense of closure, then we imagine some years pass, and then the fourth book takes place some years later with all the characters older, and the second trilogy completing the main ideas that started in the first. Martin said he couldn't do it, because he'd need to use too much flashbacks - but that's bullcrap, because none of the stuff that happened in book 4 were necessary, so if he'd never had them happen, and never had to worry about them happening in a flashback, there wouldn't be a problem.
Now the story is practically ruined. We'll end up having to finish the story with some heroes being 8 and 3 years old (how ****ed up is that - the point was that they'd have grown up by some years in the interval between the 2 trilogies) and we'll have to keep on with the retarded developments and changes to the world Martin made in 4, because he just couldn't keep the books coherent, and had to go and turn them into a freaking soap opera, adding more and more unnecessary elements and throwing the characters into new unneeded adventures.
And really that's it. The books REALLY, are, ruined. you can't erase what happened in book 4, and in book 4, the world changed into something stupid.


I don't want the Thief story to be ruined that way.

Sorry, rant done.


I think there is a point at which developers beat a dead horse, and some seem to think that 3 times is a good number, and others don't get it after about 8 games. I really don't know when Garrett's story is done. 2 games certainly had me wanting more, but the reason I think most people want another one with Garrett in it is because they all believe TDS to be so different that it shouldn't have been called thief 3. Personally, I like the way the story flowed, I liked the ending of the main story, but I can't help but feel the same as the others... it wasn't enough like the original thiefs to really allow me to feel complete closure. I think that maybe for this game he should go at it one more time, just for old times' sake, and then end up retiring at the end, putting all his skills and training to a successor for future games. I'd feel it would do him more justice to allow him to retire, than to assume he's endlessly running about the city maintaining balance or something. It doesn't feel to me like the way Garrett should go out, or would want to... he always did talk about wanting to retire.

I can also however, see them killing Garrett part way through the game and giving you control over his apprentice. I don't know how I'd feel about it... it would probably depend on how they ended up offing him.

You also can't help that people are nostalgic over the first games. And especially because Garrett was such a defined and different character than what was already out there. He was probably one of the first well characterized antiheroes. He didn't want to be one damnit, he just wanted to get enough swag to keep living, and to retire. [/QUOTE[

I wouldn't want to see Garrett die half way through the story. I can see your point though. So perhaps if they can come up with a really good story and some way for Garrett to be relevant, I can accept 4 being the final adventure with Garrett - as in the trilogy plus the pinnacle. However I'd appreciate it if at least the introduce us to his replacement to be used in Thief 5.

Jilly The Taffer
30th May 2009, 12:29
I can however, see them killing Garrett part way through the game and giving you control over his apprentice. I don't know how I'd feel about it... it would probably depend on how they ended up offing him.

I wouldn't want to see Garrett die half way through the story. I can see your point though. So perhaps if they can come up with a really good story and some way for Garrett to be relevant, I can accept 4 being the final adventure with Garrett - as in the trilogy plus the pinnacle. However I'd appreciate it if at least the introduce us to his replacement to be used in Thief 5.


Very true, as much as we would all HATE to see Garrett go, if he needs to go, do it in this game.
Get us used to him not being around, get us ready for the next Master Thief and her/his rule of the City streets in 5,6 and 7.

namron
31st May 2009, 07:51
i think if thief could have a little bit RPG elements and little bit like assassins creed (i mean to the jumping) but dont make it really assassins creed just make it with the ability to climb everywhere thief's have experience to climb everywhere and make it little rpg element like if monster dies he have's money or food or Etc... you can upgrade your weapons and at the beggining of the game you can chose to play at 3th person or 1th person it shows you a demostraison and if you dont see all the stealth games are 3th person please make the game with an open city a big city to explore many easter eggs and secrets hidden weapons and etc make the game a bit like gta little bit there are horse riding and if you fell at the blackalley there can bee a bandit or group of bandits in the game you can chose the sides you wanna be the evil side or the good side you will have an bag where you collect all the stuff you can collect rocks and threw them to distract the guards and sometimes there will be an eating planets and there is a mission where you get caught and they send you to the prison and you'll have to break the prison also thief 4 should have a multiplayer (theres a game that looks like thief its called thievery its in multiplayer} at the multiplayer you can make co-op play campagin you can make thief match that the thief who collect's the most loots wins thiefs vs guards that the thief's have to steal all the loot's before the guards kill them. :=} please make this game like this even more better :+)

nut NO WAY sorry but i do not agree or want any of that kinda thing in the game it will ruin the game completely

namron
31st May 2009, 07:55
another thing i do want garret in this game but i was going say kill him off or right him of in some point of the game and like have like his apprentice take over his work or have him retire and soem take over i wont to see a little bit more garret before he goes

Flashart
31st May 2009, 08:24
I agree with Yotun's " recipe" for T4 but cannot agree with the idea that Garrett's story is over.
Yes, milking the character for all it's worth would be terrible, and I think the law of diminishing returns would apply eventually, but Garrett's story can continue providing it's good enough.
And there's the rub, if T4, 5,+ 6 continued as one of the all time great story trilogies would any of us complain? I doubt it. If it gets ruined in one fail swoop this time, it'll be regarded as a completely bad idea from the outset.
I'm willing to accept Garrett's continuation providing it's good enough. (I felt TDS wasn't a particularly satisfying "end" anyway.) If a new protagonist is needed that'd be fine too, flag up the idea in T4 and start afresh in T5, but I'm equally suspicious of change for change's sake.
The "narrative" of the game is probably one of the cheaper aspects of the game's creation, requiring creativity and sensitivity to the canon more than cash/ technology, I'm willing to give the dev's "a chance to fail" but equally "a chance to soar".

Fire_Is_Born
31st May 2009, 10:00
I know 1st person is more 'traditional' but tbh it makes me seasick! Good for aiming, but for general playing/creeping/blackjacking the 3rd person option (like in TDS) should return.

Deadly Shadow
31st May 2009, 19:10
Garrett and his story are perfect right now, and I don't want that ruined.
Still, it's hard to imagine a theif game without Garrett's commentary after stealing items or listening in on conversations.

DarthEnder
31st May 2009, 19:19
I kinda just wanna play a remake of the first two Thief games on a current gen engine. And for that engine to have an editor.

Hypevosa
1st Jun 2009, 19:20
Very true, as much as we would all HATE to see Garrett go, if he needs to go, do it in this game.
Get us used to him not being around, get us ready for the next Master Thief and her/his rule of the City streets in 5,6 and 7.

If they did end up killing him, it would definitely give the player good incentive to keep playing to avenge his death (well, at least all of us fans anyways), and it would explain why the new character would have that darker outlook and sarcastic demeanor we all know and love from Garrett.

Maybe the Baron returns and feels threatened by Garrett, so he has him... removed. I'm sure the Baron could have alot more at his disposal than those who previously tried to kill him. Then you could steal everything that the Baron had... starting with his money and wealth... and finally his power. Thief 2 already hinted that the Baron is fighting a war that may not exist as a means of imposing higher war taxes. It would be interesting to steal all the wealth he took from the people and end up stealing his power from him by revealing the scandal. And then finally the opportunity comes to steal his life, and the new protagonist makes a choice. *has the dagger at the baron's throat and whispers into his ear* "It would only be fitting to steal your life...but I've already done that... *grin can be seen from under the cloak as the protagonist pushes the baron away* I'm a thief, not a murderer." *disappears into the shadows*

Idk, I have fun speculating and coming up with this stuff.

hellwalker
1st Jun 2009, 19:39
after watching this video,
http://gmz.tumblr.com/post/113206380/the-game-probe-thief-deadly-shadows-the

meh game will sure be poorer without Garrett's Comments.

tinetone
7th Aug 2011, 22:42
I cant see Garrett as a master thief after T3. He is the only true keeper. But maybe story about Garrett before T1 would be fun. After that... I dont know... new master thief who will have to save the city all over again? Or new City?
It could also be the story about the City with new thief for every new game where the City becomes the main thing of the series.

jtr7
7th Aug 2011, 22:59
How did he stop being a Thief, and how is he now a Keeper when he just wiped out the Keeper Order and all their resources for doing their job? If you knew the story, you'd know Garrett has been wanting to get the Keepers out of his life all along, and now he's finally done it. His job as One True Keeper is over--he ended the corrupt Keepers. Ended them. There are no Glyphs, no Prophecies. He got what he always wanted--he thinks. Yes, Thief 4 should be about Garrett getting his greatest wish and finding out the hard way it comes with a price, not settling down to play father and mentor for no reason supported by any of the story at any time.

tinetone
8th Aug 2011, 09:28
How did he stop being a Thief, and how is he now a Keeper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP37XPrhEcY 3:00

Vae
8th Aug 2011, 11:14
Why o' why did you curse us Ion Storm?...:(

Will it ever end?

Platinumoxicity
8th Aug 2011, 11:42
tinetone, it was a question, and you answered incorrectly. Care to try again?

Lannik
27th Aug 2011, 22:26
I personally believe a prequel would make much more sense. Seeing how Garrett has overcome a dark god, the mechanist, then a twisted witch.

Going back to when garrett was first learning his trade, makes more sense to me. The story wouldn't have to push to any high extreme to seem more epic than the previous games. A simple baron or local lord could then be matched against Garrett and it could be played out as a rivalry. The plot's over reaching grandeur could then be simplified down and the gameplay could then be put more into focus.

Also going back to the roots of the game as with the new deus ex game. Back to set piece stages like in thief 1 & 2 (albiet huge) instead of open roam like in T3. The open roam killed emersion for me as i was constantly going through the same areas facing the same guards and becoming repetitive.

Adding some flexibility to the gameplay. Make taverns explorable and npc's have dialog options to find (unlock) new areas or manors to ply his trade. Side quests could be a plus if done right.

as with the ending to thief 3 it could be possible to make t4 a co-op compatible game as the master thief teaches his apprentice. and during "classes" the apprentice causes some catastrophe that garrett must invovle himself to find a resolution and stop it.

and FFS lose the dagger and bring back the sword

jtr7
27th Aug 2011, 23:35
He learned his trade when he was a child, starving, a pickpocket and message-runner. Nothing big happened, he wasn't a master thief, he had no weapons training, thus, no bow, no arrows, no flashbombs, no blades, little networking, no lockpicks or lockpicking skills. When he went with the Keepers, he got his education in reading in more than two languages, learned some history but he didn't excel at it, honed his math skills, but nothing complex, and became an archer and defensive swordsman, learned how to stay out of sight, but he did not go out much into The City, he did not steal so much though remained enough of a thief to vex the Order. The Keepers kept him from his passions, while giving him more skills he could misuse.

Nothing big happened when he left the Keepers other than the Prophecies began to snowball and he established his Underground networks, but kept his missions small but challenging. He didn't pick locks until he busted Basso out of prison and then sold the Horn of Quintus, so there would be no lockpicking.

He didn't know much at all about the Pagans, so his knowledge and travels would not go into Pagan territory very much, and it would stay bland and normal-ish. He didn't know much about the Hammerites except for their fanaticism and brutality, so he wouldn't have gone too deep into Hammer territory. There would be far less magic from the Factions, and a lot less Faction struggles to get in the middle of.

He hadn't lost his eye, so that replacement device would not even get a mention. There would be no vine arrows, and it would be about the Wardens and Thieves' Guild and City Watch. No big prophecies, more nagging by the Keepers than ever, less tools, less skills, less knowledge, and only circumstantial events.

The argument about Faction corruption exists in a prequel almost just as much as a sequel. A sequel offers new direction without drastic changes, and more knowledge, more skills, more tools, than a prequel. In a prequel, things are brewing, but Garrett knows little to nothing about it, but the Keepers are getting stirred up. In a sequel, things are over and done with, but all that history and major changes to The City leave Garrett in a position he's never been in, even since before he saw Artemus for the first time.

tinetone
28th Aug 2011, 08:20
less tools, less skills, less knowledge, and only circumstantial events.
There were much more tools in T2 than in T3 even if T2 was before T3 and there should be more tools T3 like in T2. So even a prequel can have more tools.
Instead of lockipcking you search for keys and other entrances or you smash locked objects.

jtr7
28th Aug 2011, 09:06
Not that TDS didn't gut the Thief Universe of dozens of items and concepts found in TDP alone, and not that TDS isn't the most beloved of the series. ;) If Garrett's the protagonist of a prequel, then it should make sense with what we know of Garrett, otherwise, change the protagonist and have less incongruity concerns. TDS changed so much that it's not a good argument except for where it dovetails nicely with the previous established and richer details.

tinetone
28th Aug 2011, 10:38
If you dont want anything changed than you can play fan missions, you will have full time job for next few years.
Games have to develop if they want to get new people playing it. Most of the people want something new and wont mind new tools or lockipicks or even artificial eye in a prequel if game is good.