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The Cowboy
28th May 2009, 06:29
I love how the original thief and TDS have one or two haunted (survival horror) style levels and it would be great if Thief 4 also had them. I understand that the game is mainly about Garret, thieving & stealth so it should always be mainly about that but one or two-haunted style levels amongst the regular thief missions greatly enhanced gameplay. It forced players to adapt their thief skills for different enemies & environments plus added a lot of atmosphere to the thief world. I was slightly disappointed when T2 did not have any haunted levels quite like T1 (trail of blood & soulforge being the nearest levels).

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 06:46
Haunted missions are beautifully done in Thief games. Mostly because of the gameplay. The level is full of scary and dangerous creatures that are out to kill you and you cannot simply bust out your rocket launcher and blow them to bits.

huzi73
28th May 2009, 07:59
Please bring back at least 1 haunted level for every 4 normal levels or so,heck I wouldnt wind if every 3rd level was haunted (LIKE TDP!!!!)

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 09:03
Haunted levels blow. They're in a completely different genre from the rest of the game.


******* survival horror....make a different game and make it all haunted levels for all I care. Stop giving me goddamn nightmares when I just wanna steal treasure.

Gabriel
28th May 2009, 09:48
Haunted levels do not blow. They're part of the surrealism of the Thief world.

Ever played Return to the Cathedral?

Bring back haunted levels! :D

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 10:30
The fact that these levels give you nightmares DarthEnder shows that they are doing their job. I always found that scary missions in Thief are better than any games that try to be scary. Mostly because the main focus of the game isn't survival horror, as you said. So the scare tactics aren't overdone, they are used sparingly. Enhancing their value.

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 10:41
The fact that these levels give you nightmares DarthEnder shows that they are doing their job.I realize that, but I don't WANT it to do it's job, because I don't WANT my stealth action game to scare me. I don't pay for things to scare me. Just like I don't pay for things to make me sad or to piss me off. I get enough of that **** for free. I want the things I pay money for to make me feel good.



I guess I don't understand when this shift back happened. Back when Thief 1 first came out, Everybody *****ed about how much Bonehord and Cathedral sucked as thief levels. That's why Thief 2 didn't have any levels like that, and why most people thought Thief 2 was the best in the series.

I have to assume it goes back to The Cradle. That was about the time there was this huge resurgence of people who all of a sudden loved creepy levels with obnoxious as **** enemies.


Bottom line, The Cradle is a brilliantly designed level that I had absolutely zero fun playing through.

Yaphy
28th May 2009, 10:48
I always found that scary missions in Thief are better than any games that try to be scary.

Me 2! I love the scary levels in Thief. Theyve put a story to the creepy places and lots of stuff to read to understand why the place is the way it is. The sounds is extremly well made in these levels. I specialy think about the Cradle. The music changes when you enter new rooms. I remember walkin in to the room of the woman with a urn with ashes of her baby in it. The urn was standing at the table and suddently you could hear a baby cry in the background and tone up over all the other screams and crying voices in the Cradle. You could read about every person who lived in the house. The Cradle took me about one full week to finish on expert without killing anyone. I cant remember how many times i almost got an heart-attack on that mission...AND I LOVED IT! :D

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 10:50
@DarthEnder
The Cradle was fun though and I think TDS would have been worse without it. Would TMA have been better with a full fledged scary mission? I don't think that matters. There were a handful of scary encounters here and there, but TMA was supposed to be a purer Thief experience. TTLG basically toned down the monsters and mystical elements that were so prevalent in TDP. It was a good move, but I don't think that a scary mission needs to involve undead. A master level designer could craft a terrifying experience without ever even showing you your enemy. If it is done properly and not spammed like in TDP then I am all for it.

huzi73
28th May 2009, 10:55
I realize that, but I don't WANT it to do it's job, because I don't WANT my stealth action game to scare me. I don't pay for things to scare me. Just like I don't pay for things to make me sad or to piss me off. I get enough of that **** for free. I want the things I pay money for to make me feel good.



I guess I don't understand when this shift back happened. Back when Thief 1 first came out, Everybody *****ed about how much Bonehord and Cathedral sucked as thief levels. That's why Thief 2 didn't have any levels like that, and why most people thought Thief 2 was the best in the series.

I have to assume it goes back to The Cradle. That was about the time there was this huge resurgence of people who all of a sudden loved creepy levels with obnoxious as **** enemies.


Bottom line, The Cradle is a brilliantly designed level that I had absolutely zero fun playing through.

Different strokes for different folks...

The Cowboy
28th May 2009, 10:57
If every mission had players using similar skills then it would no longer be has challenging. Haunted levels provided one of the many different gameplay challenges in the game.

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 10:59
Well, to be fair, my favorite game series is one where I sit in the dark and attack people in the back.

Clearly, I'm a cowardly git.

BoldEnglishman
28th May 2009, 11:01
@DarthEnder: Once again, you seem to be pulling these assumptions out of nowhere.

1. "Everybody *ed about how much Bonehord and Cathedral sucked as thief levels" - What? Gamespot still has the Hammer Haunts and Return to the Cathedral as the scariest experience in any game, period. As is mentioned in plenty of other threads, quite a few people are saying that Return to the Cathedral and Bonehoard are their favourite levels.

2. "why most people thought Thief 2 was the best in the series"... again this is completely unfounded as well. If you go to the TTLG forums and look at the threads that were made shortly after Thief II's release, you will see that the divide between TDP and TMA is pretty much even, and the divide that existed between the two games then is very similar to the divide that has manifested between some fans of TDP/TMA and TDS. Ask people what their favourite game is, some will say the Metal Age for the reasons you pointed out, but plenty of others will say the Dark Project for other reasons - personally the Dark Project is my favourite game of the series as well.

So yeah, I'm in full support of a handful of haunted levels in the new game. The Metal Age dealt with... err... the Metal Age... but we have been there now, done that. It really depends on when the game is set, but the balance has shifted once more, and I don't think the undead/scary elements of the game should be left out once again.

Gabriel
28th May 2009, 11:45
I realize that, but I don't WANT it to do it's job, because I don't WANT my stealth action game to scare me. I don't pay for things to scare me. Just like I don't pay for things to make me sad or to piss me off. I get enough of that **** for free. I want the things I pay money for to make me feel good.

Look man, frankly Thief would be a little bit boring if not for the scary levels and enemies. I personally DREADED being face to face with the spiders and haunts and zombies in Thief, but it gave me so much satisfaction to be in a place crawling with zombies for example (the Bonehoard), go get my loot without being caught and get the hell out of there.

When playing this type of levels you feel anguish and maybe it isn't as fun for some people as, say, an all-humans level where you can run around blackjack-ing or backstabbing everybody, but at least for me, the feeling of relief and pride when completing such a level is enhanced.

Just my opinion.

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 12:08
What? Gamespot still has the Hammer Haunts and Return to the Cathedral as the scariest experience in any game, period. As is mentioned in plenty of other threads, quite a few people are saying that Return to the Cathedral and Bonehoard are their favourite levels.Unless you actually look at the thread on this very forum that does that exact purpose, where there's like 1 guy that said Bonehoard, and about 20 people that said Life of the Party.


So yeah, I'm in full support of a handful of haunted levels in the new game. The Metal Age dealt with... err... the Metal Age... but we have been there now, done that. It really depends on when the game is set, but the balance has shifted once more, and I don't think the undead/scary elements of the game should be left out once again.Except that we've now had TWO games with a bunch of undead/scary elements, so isn't THAT the thing that should be "been there now, done that TWICE"? The balance has shifted? You mean towards undead? Yeah, that was the LAST game. Now we're into the next game, by your own logic, it's time for it to shift back to machines.

Everything you say is pulled right out of your ass. You're all "where's your proof of this!" and it's all around you in this forum and your too lazy to bother reading any of it.

Platinumoxicity
28th May 2009, 12:55
Hello there. I just came from playing "The Haunted Cathedral" ghost style and succeeded. I've never done that before. I enjoyed every minute of it because usually in that level I just blasted every zombie and burrick I saw but this time I really had to pay attention to how they moved. They were completely erradic and I had to work on my timing to get from shadow to another. The problem with zombies when you play ghost style is that they are easier than human opponents. Of course they can't be knocked out or killed with a sword or arrows, but they are very dumb and slow. The old, rotten zombies from T1 should return, but somewhat "updated". They should be an equal challenge compared to human opponents.

Limesneeker
28th May 2009, 16:51
A pure survival horror game will never be as scary as a game where you get surprised by it.

My first Thief xp was The Metal Age. Back then I knew nothing about Thief and assumed that its setting is free of supernatural elements. While playing the 2nd mission (harbour) this belief got strengthened due to the realistic environments. And then suddenly - without any warning I encountered the spiders in one storage hall. Without a doubt this was my most frightening encounter in a game EVER - simply because I didnt expect it...

In my opinion the delicate mix of realism and supernaturalism makes Thief something special (while I think most real-only and haunted-only games are boring)
So, yeah I love haunted elements in Thief.


By the way: I think the TDS zombies (NOT the puppets) are the best designed zombies I´ve ever seen. They aren´t this generic, trashy, dumb zombies but have something unique. Both the visuals and the sounds create the feeling of poor, deseased but also insane man, which scares in a special way. Since then, I was always dissapointed with zombie-encounters in most fantasy games....

I hope EM will recreate this undead-uniqueness....

Sierra Oscar
28th May 2009, 16:56
I always found the "haunted" levels in the Thief series of games to be far more eery than other games, for example FEAR.

ToMegaTherion
28th May 2009, 17:06
I think the best haunted levels are the ones that take place inside a restricted area like the Cathedral or the Cradle. I didn't really like any of the other supernatural missions in Thief. I suspect that is more due to bad level design rather than haunted things being no good, but I think it's always worth mentioning that using undead doesn't mean you have to make your level a whole lot different from standard Thief levels.

huzi73
28th May 2009, 17:33
I always found the "haunted" levels in the Thief series of games to be far more eery than other games, for example FEAR.

Agreed,FEAR was more jack in the box jump in your face monster in the closet horror.Thief managed to scare the hair on my balls without that,it was a game that forced you to face your fears.There no shooting the little biatch in a red gown with a rifle and pretend to be doing something feeling.I want
More undead than TMA/TDS.If
EM are able to recreate that unique uncomfortable/uneasy/get me the hell outta here feeling (present in Cragscleft,Bonehoard,The sword,Cathederal,Lost city,Cradle,Maw,Soulforge...)Where you have to sneak past your worst fears slowly while you look at it in the face rather than jump around and hit it with a bazooka.

Sierra Oscar
28th May 2009, 17:46
Agreed,FEAR was more jack in the box jump in your face monster in the closet horror.Thief managed to scare the hair on my balls without that,it was a game that forced you to face your fears.There no shooting the little biatch in a red gown with a rifle and pretend to be doing something feeling.I want
More undead than TMA/TDS.If
EM are able to recreate that unique uncomfortable/uneasy/get me the hell outta here feeling (present in Cragscleft,Bonehoard,The sword,Cathederal,Lost city,Cradle,Maw,Soulforge...)Where you have to sneak past your worst fears slowly while you look at it in the face rather than jump around and hit it with a bazooka.

Aye, and with FEAR you can always just run around with guns blazing.

That aint an option with Thief!;)

Pyryp
28th May 2009, 18:07
I hate those scary & creepy levels.

MasterTaffer
28th May 2009, 18:27
I enjoyed the 3 undead focus levels in TDP quite a bit, particularly Return to the Haunted Cathedral. I also know I'm in the very small minority that liked Down into the Bonehoard. To me, the undead have always been a part of what makes the Thief universe unique. They aren't the focus of the game, just a periferal force in the City that everyone dreads and the Hammers work tirelessly to keep down. They helped the first game by mixing up the opponents so you had to adjust your play style. It kept the game from getting stale, as sneaking around human opponents constantly eventually began to feel like a routine. It was nice that they mixed up the first game with undead and Trickster beasts, I just wish the Trickster beasts levels weren't as poorly designed as they were...

Plus people tend to get buried with some nice swag that's worth swiping, making it profitable to delve into these undead infested areas.

Hypevosa
28th May 2009, 18:30
I do agree with the others, that the haunted levels are part of the surrealism of thief, and they are some of the best levels... but there is a point at which it turns from thief to survival horror....

Assuming there are at least 14 fully made levels, I say at least 1 has to be a haunted one like the cradle or bonehoard... but at very MOST 3. Garrett would not be raiding every tomb he heard about. Why risk my ass around a bunch of undead who only stop for good when I blow them up, when I can simply get around incompetent guards who I can knockout with a little tap on the head? I don't think he'd be risking his ass as often as he did in the first game (where he learned he didn't like risking his ass...)

Direlord
28th May 2009, 19:31
I agree with Hype. Thief 4 should have one supernatural type level as it's main focus. Another thread talked about a return to soul forge.

However I think the undead stuff should be kept to a minimum either in small sections of bigger missions like sneaking through a crypt to get into a cathedral or dealing with the tree beasts in pagan lands. These are parts of missions where you still face normal guards and not like Cradle or Return to the Cathedral.

I'm actually more in favor of bring back the mechanists stuff with the watcher eyes and golems. Again though only have maybe 1 mission if any where these are the primary guards. Keep them to smaller chunks of normal missions where you have to change your style of play.

Having these little short bursts are great and memorably because they are rare and usually extremely well done. It makes for a great change of pace mission forcing you to take a step back and rethink how you are playing the game.

Herr_Garrett
28th May 2009, 19:42
Haunted levels are very lovely. This thread actually should go hand in hand with the surrealism thread...

Undead in Thief always evoked me (not in any particular order) loathing, horror, pity, terror, a sort of charitable bloodthirstiness (those poor guys really need/deserve death). The point is that all these emotions were evoked at once, and combined into a new feeling/emotion I have no word for. Other games, in my experience, usually may provoke at the most three of these emotions, which, compared to Thief-experience, are rather poor.
The Haunts still make me crap my pants, after 11 years.
The Library-encounter in MA is among my scariest experiences ever.
And the Puppets are something so special... Undead, and insane people, the combination of twain great fears. I remember when I first saw the one puppet digging/scraping the floor in the Cradle. That was such an intellectual, thought-provoking scare (a peerless feature, that!) that I didn't dare to play the game for a week afterwards. The utterly mindless, hopeless, irrational and totally inverted dance macabre of those wholly insane puppets in that already terrifying place is such a well-designed, sublime and intellectual scare that it really leaves scars, as the author said. Whenever I start to philosophise my friends, and insanity comes up as a topic, I always counsel them to play the Cradle, because that way, you take a bath in the waters of insanity - which is one of my greatest fears, and I guess it is the same with many people. And "know your fear, and you fear it no longer".

This, I think, is called "horrified fascination".

So please, if anyone is capable at EM of creating again something like this or even better, do so, do so.

huzi73
28th May 2009, 21:46
I agree with Hype. Thief 4 should have one supernatural type level as it's main focus. Another thread talked about a return to soul forge.

However I think the undead stuff should be kept to a minimum either in small sections of bigger missions like sneaking through a crypt to get into a cathedral or dealing with the tree beasts in pagan lands. These are parts of missions where you still face normal guards and not like Cradle or Return to the Cathedral.

I'm actually more in favor of bring back the mechanists stuff with the watcher eyes and golems. Again though only have maybe 1 mission if any where these are the primary guards. Keep them to smaller chunks of normal missions where you have to change your style of play.

Having these little short bursts are great and memorably because they are rare and usually extremely well done. It makes for a great change of pace mission forcing you to take a step back and rethink how you are playing the game.

Im not quite getting you,if the game has just 1 fully undead level in 14 levels,im not too sure id be interested enough to finish the game,id get bored.Maybe mechs in a level to change the playstyle,but undead?they were used the way they were in TMA purely as a challenge or for a slight scare,actually they were more entertaining than scary. I could never possibly get the feeling of unease and discomfort sneaking through one small area per level featuring undead/supernatural elements,as opposed to a couple of massive,fully fledged surreal levels

Hypevosa
29th May 2009, 04:32
Im not quite getting you,if the game has just 1 fully undead level in 14 levels,im not too sure id be interested enough to finish the game,id get bored.Maybe mechs in a level to change the playstyle,but undead?they were used the way they were in TMA purely as a challenge or for a slight scare,actually they were more entertaining than scary. I could never possibly get the feeling of unease and discomfort sneaking through one small area per level featuring undead/supernatural elements,as opposed to a couple of massive,fully fledged surreal levels

I'm not quite getting you... It seems like you're suggesting that not having undead would bore you, yet having little areas of undead in a few levels would bore you... I'm slightly confused by your post.

Anyways, as I said before I think that there's an absolute necessity for at least ONE if not 2 or 3 surreal missions with undead/ghosts/cradle.... ok, this is some scary ****.... my power just went out... um, anyways... (this is really creepy in the dark...) but I don't think there should be an ABUSE of those type of levels. they should be sparse, and a treat, not the main focus of the game. so I think of 14 fully developed levels, I put a cap at having 3 be the surreal type. Wow, I'm actually kind of scared right now >_<

Wow, that freaked me the hell out, I drove to the local pub just to not be in the dark. I kept seeing the cradle dudes, all the sudden peering their spike caged head over into the light of my lap top... I definitely need at least one level that can leave me like cradle did.

Vae
29th May 2009, 04:44
Just please do not model the zombies after the ones that were in T3. They were a joke and wrong in every way. The best zombies that I have come across are in T1/T2. They add to the mystique/immersion that is THIEF.

Durinda D'Bry
29th May 2009, 06:32
Just please do not model the zombies after the ones that were in T3. They were a joke and wrong in every way. The best zombies that I have come across are in T1/T2. They add to the mystique/immersion that is THIEF.

For me in Deadly Shadows zombies were really scary and dangerous, I was shoked first time I saw how fast they move! In DP/MA they were too easy to avoid.
But I think there should be more sub-types for each creature type with behaviour defferences.

GmanPro
29th May 2009, 06:37
The scariest moment in gaming for me was when I tried playing return to the cathedral for the first time and I discovered that the zombies could open doors.

huzi73
29th May 2009, 08:25
I'm not quite getting you... It seems like you're suggesting that not having undead would bore you, yet having little areas of undead in a few levels would bore you... I'm slightly confused by your post.

Anyways, as I said before I think that there's an absolute necessity for at least ONE if not 2 or 3 surreal missions with undead/ghosts/cradle.... ok, this is some scary ****.... my power just went out... um, anyways... (this is really creepy in the dark...) but I don't think there should be an ABUSE of those type of levels. they should be sparse, and a treat, not the main focus of the game. so I think of 14 fully developed levels, I put a cap at having 3 be the surreal type. Wow, I'm actually kind of scared right now >_<

Wow, that freaked me the hell out, I drove to the local pub just to not be in the dark. I kept seeing the cradle dudes, all the sudden peering their spike caged head over into the light of my lap top... I definitely need at least one level that can leave me like cradle did.

Ok,to cut it sweet and short,I feel it doesnt do justice to have "sneak through the abandoned chapel area...or whatever" as the zombie/scary part of a level.Ok,fine,having "zombie areas per level can work(it was done very well in cragscleft)"but what im saying is,it doesnt do justice.Id rather have a few full scary levels,rather than having a few small zombie sectors in some levels

DarthEnder
29th May 2009, 10:35
I'm just saying, if I get to a level in thief 4 and the description is that I have to break into a prison that used to be a hospital that was destroyed in a flood....I'm using a cheat code to skip it.

Sierra Oscar
29th May 2009, 11:17
I'm just saying, if I get to a level in thief 4 and the description is that I have to break into a prison that used to be a hospital that was destroyed in a flood....I'm using a cheat code to skip it.

You would be missing some of the best bits!:D

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th May 2009, 14:17
Is someone frightened?
:D

Gabriel
29th May 2009, 15:54
Haha, I think it's pretty obvious that he is. :D Seriously though, if you don't enjoy this type of levels, just skip it, like you said. No need for EM to not include "scary" levels just because some of us are scaredy-cats :rasp: (here we go...)

DarthEnder
29th May 2009, 16:00
I do that with Bonehoard every time I replay Thief now but it kinda sucks cause it means I have no loot going into Assassins.

Limesneeker
29th May 2009, 17:16
Haunted levels are very lovely. This thread actually should go hand in hand with the surrealism thread...

Undead in Thief always evoked me (not in any particular order) loathing, horror, pity, terror, a sort of charitable bloodthirstiness (those poor guys really need/deserve death). The point is that all these emotions were evoked at once, and combined into a new feeling/emotion I have no word for. Other games, in my experience, usually may provoke at the most three of these emotions, which, compared to Thief-experience, are rather poor.
The Haunts still make me crap my pants, after 11 years.
The Library-encounter in MA is among my scariest experiences ever.
And the Puppets are something so special... Undead, and insane people, the combination of twain great fears. I remember when I first saw the one puppet digging/scraping the floor in the Cradle. That was such an intellectual, thought-provoking scare (a peerless feature, that!) that I didn't dare to play the game for a week afterwards. The utterly mindless, hopeless, irrational and totally inverted dance macabre of those wholly insane puppets in that already terrifying place is such a well-designed, sublime and intellectual scare that it really leaves scars, as the author said. Whenever I start to philosophise my friends, and insanity comes up as a topic, I always counsel them to play the Cradle, because that way, you take a bath in the waters of insanity - which is one of my greatest fears, and I guess it is the same with many people. And "know your fear, and you fear it no longer".

This, I think, is called "horrified fascination".

So please, if anyone is capable at EM of creating again something like this or even better, do so, do so.


well said:cool:

CookieMcCrumble
29th May 2009, 17:55
I loved some of the haunted levels in the thief series. TDP I really enjoyed the lost city, cathedral etc, some of the creatures were really spooky - the clicky things used to scare the hell outta me lol

T2 kinda went a little less spooky, it was mainly the mechs that just appeared around corners that made me jump.

TDS - The Cradle level was amazing. The single most spooky gaming experience I've ever had. The atmosphere of the building was perfect, the sound effects, the enemies... *shudder*.

So yeah, I'd love to see them back, just not overdone.

Direlord
29th May 2009, 18:19
Ok,to cut it sweet and short,I feel it doesnt do justice to have "sneak through the abandoned chapel area...or whatever" as the zombie/scary part of a level.Ok,fine,having "zombie areas per level can work(it was done very well in cragscleft)"but what im saying is,it doesnt do justice.Id rather have a few full scary levels,rather than having a few small zombie sectors in some levels

There would be a full lvl or 2 but i don't want to see undead full on every 3 lvls. If they do a surreal lvl every 3 that would be fine IMO. You can have a undead lvl, a pagan lands mission, and a old mechanist mission thrown in or a few of those depending on story.

It might be more personal preference while I have liked the full undead lvls Cradle being :thumb: I actually dislike seeing lots of the undead. I'd rather see more human guard types and with the mechanical stuff.

in say a 14 mission long story line you have 2 full undead type levels, 1 mechanists, 1-2 pagan lands with the monsters. Then the rest are either full human guards with any bonuses they add in T4 (bloodhounds or something) with small parts of undead or mechanist creations.

This is pretty much all opinion and that is mine.

BlooferLady
29th May 2009, 23:50
Ever played Return to the Cathedral?

Yes, yes we have, and we hates it precious. OK, this is something I feel strongly about, so you'll have to excuse me.

I'm with Darth Ender on this one. I don't play Thief to be frightened. I play it to enjoy myself, and horror games/movies/stories are not enjoyable to me. So if you DO put a Cradle-esque level in Thief 4, for the people who like that crap-your-pants feeling, be kind to those of us that don't like to be spooked. Give us our level skipping cheats. I used to have a save that I never erased, that takes place right after I get out of the cradle so that I could just load that and skip the whole board. Of course, my roommate's been playing TDS, and she accidentally saved over it, so I'm guaranteed another run through. GREAT.

Don't get me wrong, the Cradle is absolutely brilliant. Pure genius. I just prefer my sleep to my horror stories, thanks so much. And please, no more than one of these genius levels per game, devs. And certainly not one every THREE STINKING LEVELS. I'll play through one. Maybe 2, but you'll make me cry if you put more in. Would you make a girl cry?

Yes, I am a coward. All of those guards are right, after all. Just know that while a lot of people do like the scary levels, there are those of us that don't. I don't want to rain on your parade, saying yes, take them all out, but I miss the option to skip the level if I choose! I generally play through the creepy levels regardless of the fact that I hate them, even RTC, but I would skip the cradle if I could. (If there's a way to skip it, and I just haven't found it, I'd marry the person to tell me how. Ok, not really, but, yeah)



For me in Deadly Shadows zombies were really scary and dangerous, I was shoked first time I saw how fast they move! In DP/MA they were too easy to avoid.

Agree. In the Bonehoard they're not even frightening. And definitely not worth fighting. I just wind up sprinting through the whole level with a 14 person long zombie-conga-line following behind me.

GmanPro
30th May 2009, 04:18
I do that with Bonehoard every time I replay Thief now but it kinda sucks cause it means I have no loot going into Assassins.

Your frightened of a bunch of pixels on a screen?

Besides dude ... Bonehoard isn't even scary.

MasterTaffer
30th May 2009, 04:42
Your frightened of a bunch of pixels on a screen?

Besides dude ... Bonehoard isn't even scary.*

*Disclaimer: GmanPro does not represent anyone but himself. His views and opinions on games and their players are not shared by all Thief fans or other gamers and should not be taken as anything more than opinion.

Added a disclaimer for you. You'll thank me later.

Hypevosa
30th May 2009, 04:44
Added a disclaimer for you. You'll thank me later.

Nice discalimer... I made a poll completely inspired by DarthEnder -- I hope he feels special :D

PiCroft
30th May 2009, 05:31
I hope they bring back loads of scary stuff. I loved being frightened - the walking statues from TDS were brilliant, and the Cradle was scarier than just about any other scary game I've played.

Just a point; if they bring back zombies and statues, please vary the stuff they say and the noises they make a bit more. The zombies in TDS make this weird noise that sounds a lot like they are saying "hacky sack" and it stops me from taking them too seriously ;)

BoldEnglishman
30th May 2009, 10:11
Except that we've now had TWO games with a bunch of undead/scary elements, so isn't THAT the thing that should be "been there now, done that TWICE"?

Thief: Deadly Shadows had one big undead level, and other than that the undead were peppered around like they were in the Metal Age. The undead element in Thief: Deadly Shadows was not as focused as it was in the Dark Project, and Deadly Shadows' main focus was the Keepers anyway.

Besides your thinking seems to be similar to binary - your suggesting that a Thief game either deals with "undead/scary elements" or mechanist/technological elements, with nothing in between or beyond. I'm not suggesting that the next game returns to either of these two areas, but to progress to something new.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
30th May 2009, 11:38
It's fun to play as Garrett The Explorer and raid some tombs, but for me those missions aren't replayable.

I both love and hate the haunted/scary levels. At first I think 'oh no I'm going to be wandering around some large, drab, cave-like place with little loot for a good hour or two'. Once I finish the level I think "that was neat". I never really want to play it again though. Those kinds of places are just not exciting to me after the first time.

My fun and excitement mainly comes from the manor/castle styled levels. And some nice church, warehouse, museum type missions (anything with people I guess) helps keep things fresh. I could play those over and over. I guess I like them better because they make me feel more like a thief where-as caves, mines, prisons, and **** make me feel like tomb raider or something. Not necessarily bad, just not as fun to me.

Haunted manor, best of both worlds for me. I hate cave-like places. I will feel annoyed if the second or third mission of T4 is a large underground ancient ruin or something.

I like it when games keep the first levels simple. In TDP I started with a big fun castle to rob. It felt a tad overwhelming the first time, but It made me think, "wow playing as a thief is cool." Then, I felt like I was thrown into some overly complicated stuff. Seriously? The game is about me sneaking around and stealing stuff while trying not to get caught, and the second mission has me sneaking into a PRISON?! I just thought that was way off. Next thing I knew, I was sneaking in the mother******* bonehoard. It really didn't seem like the game I expected because of those 2 missions. The fun stuff came eventually though. So please don't give me two big whacked out cave/crypt/underground missions back to back. And certainly not in the beginning of the game!

Hypevosa
30th May 2009, 12:28
I think they probably went for the irony of a thief breaking into a prison for his second job... I mean, I find it extremely ironic at least, and a testament to Garrett's skill (and the hammers' poor placement of lighting fixtures...)

Yaphy
30th May 2009, 15:05
Just a point; if they bring back zombies and statues, please vary the stuff they say and the noises they make a bit more. The zombies in TDS make this weird noise that sounds a lot like they are saying "hacky sack" and it stops me from taking them too seriously ;)

I didnt think it sounded like "hacky sack" at all. It was more like a "Whats that?!" sound. I thought it was scary when you heard theyre little noices and when you walk to them they suddently stops and says "Whats that?!". :rolleyes:

BlooferLady
30th May 2009, 15:51
I liked the noises the TDS zombies made. They had all the normal groaning/moaning/snarling noises, but they sounded sad sometimes too. I would be, if I was a walking corpse.

Zombies never bother me as much as the ghosts, haunts, and Cradle puppets. Give me some moldering dead people any day. The ones who are scary are the ghosts who are fast, intelligent, and can take a good chunk out of you.

I like missions like Cragscleft, where part of the level has undead issues, but once you get beyond that, you're in the clear. It's even better when you know you have to go back through there, but in the meantime, all you have to deal with is the psychos with gigantic hammers. I guess I just like my breathing space.

Zephyr
30th May 2009, 16:16
One of the greatest levels in Thief series was "Return to the Cathedral". It would be great if something as spooky and mysterious as that level was added into Thief4.
The horror levels in Thief usually balance the game. Most of the time you sneak into mansions and steal things, and then suddenly you go loot a haunted tomb. It's nice change of scenery and creates some of the most exciting moments in Thief. I remember how zombies and skeleton guards freaked me out when I was playing TDP. In Thief, horror is a part of the game in its own way, and it shouldn't be discarded imo.

crazy_bex
30th May 2009, 23:10
I loved the idea of haunted missions and the cradle was a legend of a mission! What I didnt like about them is that TDP seemed to have had human missions outnumbered by haunted/undead missions. Also, Thief 2 didn't contain any which was also dissapointing.

I think the best thing to do is have the odd one here and there and make them really good and scary but not have too many because it takes away the "thief" element to the game. Having 1 or 2 in the game instead of 5 or 6 keeps the eerieness fresh. Lets face it, the cradle wouldnt have been as nearly as effective if there had been loads of other haunted missions in DS.

It would be really great if they are able create one mission in Thief 4 that could be as scary and as thrilling as the cradle. That really was a stunning mission. Definatley my favourite out of Thief DS.

Flashart
31st May 2009, 07:52
TDS also had "The Abysmal Gale" as an undead level but it never gets mentioned. Why? It just wasn't that great. And I think that's the important thing, the fear, or "scary" element in any level is only ever going to have it's maximum impact the first time you play it. "Cradle" although great, didn't terrify me the second time nearly as much as it did the first. But it was still a great level.
As the supernatural element is present in the Thief games it would be folly to ignore it completely, just look at the column inches generated by "Cradle", but it's context still has to be weighed against the level design. Just populating a level with zombies does not a scary level make.
I think used sparingly, it's a great device for generating mood on top of the tension within the level, but I'd argue that "Return to the Cathedral" would still be a great level if it was full of regular guards.

Fire_Is_Born
31st May 2009, 09:51
A bit of updating is needed for the zombies... In TDS, you could just crouch and the zombies wouldn't hit you! I definitely think the zombie levels should return, it added a cool change in style to the game. Instead of Garret being the hunter an the guards being his prey, they actually made you afraid. Cradle is definitely the scariest level I've played in pretty much any game... mostly psychological I think, cos you can hear all the children etc in the background. Loved the way the lights flickered and died as the enemies approached as well. Well atmospheric.

Vae
31st May 2009, 11:45
A bit of updating is needed for the zombies... In TDS, you could just crouch and the zombies wouldn't hit you!

I dont think there were actually any zombies in Deadly Shadows, were there? I thought those were old angry homeless people on speed who wanted a handout, and when you crouched they just realized that you didn't have anything and left you alone. Then again it may have been the effect of the "magical crouch" that TDS introduced into the game that made you invisible to those poor folks...not sure.

DarthEnder
31st May 2009, 19:26
Besides dude ... Bonehoard isn't even scary.Actually I agree. I skip bonehoard mostly because I hate the gameplay mechanics associated with zombies. I imagine a single T3 Holy Water Flask would drastically reduce my dislike of the level (run around that bottom chamber and gather up all dozen of the zombies there, toss the flask on the ground and watch them all dissolve).
TDS also had "The Abysmal Gale" as an undead level but it never gets mentioned. Why? It just wasn't that great.Also because it's not really a level. It's just a place in the city hub.

CheesyCat
31st May 2009, 20:45
I love the scary levels. They are some of the best in any game and are emphasised by their context within a non-scary game. Thief 1, 2 and DP would have been a shadow of what they are now with purely thieving levels.

The Thief universe exists in a steam-punk-techno-magic world and what is a magic world without the undead coming back to life?

DarthEnder
31st May 2009, 21:58
I like missions like Cragscleft, where part of the level has undead issues, but once you get beyond that, you're in the clear. It's even better when you know you have to go back through there, but in the meantime, all you have to deal with is the psychos with gigantic hammers. I guess I just like my breathing space.I agree completely.

"You have to break into a mansion and there's probably zombies in the family crypt."

"Great!"


"You have to cross the cities rooftops and you might stumble into a necromancers lab."

"Awesome!"


"You need to crawl around an ancient tomb containing the walking dead corpses of an entire kingdom probably."

"Er....do I have to?"


"We need you to go to this haunted building full up of the tortured spirits of orphans and asylum patients that were burned alive."

".....go **** yourself."

maytrix110
31st May 2009, 22:31
Creepy missions bring a bit fear to the game, and I think this what mad us all fall in love with the game. It involved our emotions as we strived to pick a lock fast enough before the gaurd came back. You could almost feel your heart drop as the sounds came closer and closer and closer.

The undead, and their moans filled the air with another terror that also became a big part of the game. and as we listened in the dark before we moved, we thought we were free and moved, but only to run into the arms of another moaning undead that terrified us all for a moment.

This is Thief, and it is apart of the game that makes us come back for more. And though some hated it, including I, I did miss it in 2, and welcomed it back in three.

So i hope we have great story boards that compared to Looking Glass. As you can see, every game they made was developed to improve our game for us. And your hands are full right now. If you back to one, improve graphics, movements, make larger maps, give us a great AI, and keep it free will. Let us pick how we want to play, and like 2, where we had to sneak, we could only kill two people, and he had to blackjack everyone, and we had to follow people so close, and just nothing that had to do with the game. Just let us steal to earn our way, and let decide. Either a arrow through the heart, or a blackjack to head. If we kill, they will scream and other will come. So we will have to act faster, hide the body, or just run. Or we can simply sneak and set traps, like the oil spill, land mines, and other things to trap our victims.

But it was our world once, and it should be our world again. What we do effects our play, and the diffculty.

As for the undead, I love the heart dropping moments, and I remember them the most. And though I am not a fan of the undead, its Thief.

morty343
1st Jun 2009, 03:33
Create choice!! For example, to reach an objective, Garrett either can scale a challenging series of balconies/guarded halls, or choose to cut through some catacombs, complete with PO-ed zombies and hair-raising haunts. (But equal loot to be gained by either route.) And I like it when either path is LONG.

Anyway, for T4 to really "be" Thief, imo I think it needs at least 20% undead presence. (I'm basing this on the original game, and some of the best fan missions that followed, etc.)

GmanPro
1st Jun 2009, 03:37
I agree completely.

"You have to break into a mansion and there's probably zombies in the family crypt."

"Great!"


"You have to cross the cities rooftops and you might stumble into a necromancers lab."

"Awesome!"


"You need to crawl around an ancient tomb containing the walking dead corpses of an entire kingdom probably."

"Er....do I have to?"


"We need you to go to this haunted building full up of the tortured spirits of orphans and asylum patients that were burned alive."

".....go **** yourself."

Lol, now I wanna play some really scary video games:D

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
1st Jun 2009, 09:11
Thief 4 start

"I need to pay the rent. Think I'll go rob the haunted super-crypt that was built over the ancient pagan burial grounds. I should be able to exit through the abandoned mega-internment camp from the last great war."

Mission 2

"I need to collect some spider venom for my collection. The underground spider labyrinth should be a good place."

Mission 3

"I need to collect the Crystal skull located in the deep dark- *DarthEnder quits game*

Gabriel
1st Jun 2009, 11:21
Thief 4 start

"I need to pay the rent. Think I'll go rob the haunted super-crypt that was built over the ancient pagan burial grounds. I should be able to exit through the abandoned mega-internment camp from the last great war."

Mission 2

"I need to collect some spider venom for my collection. The underground spider labyrinth should be a good place."

Mission 3

"I need to collect the Crystal skull located in the deep dark- *DarthEnder quits game*

hahaha that's the funniest thing I've ever read :lol:
it's funny because it's true!

though I do absolutely loathe spiders :eek:

AbysmalGale
1st Jun 2009, 12:04
Why not design the game in such a way that you could choose what types of missions you would like to do? Let's say Thief 4 is a HUGE map with The City in the center, and lots of forests, fields villages and mines around it. If you want to do scary missions, you simply choose to hang around the bonehoard, church yard, mines or haunted cathedrals. On the other hand, if you wish to sneak around in mansions, castles, banks, villages or pagan territories, you simply do so. And if you like a tad of both, it's your choice.

CheesyCat
1st Jun 2009, 13:07
You selected DarthEnder difficulty.

Mission 1 - The kiddies need some cookies, I don't have the ingredients but I think I might be able to find some self-raising flour in the kitchen.

Gabriel
1st Jun 2009, 15:18
You selected DarthEnder difficulty.

Mission 1 - The kiddies need some cookies, I don't have the ingredients but I think I might be able to find some self-raising flour in the kitchen.

I might get a warning here, but:

I think you forgot to add in more pink, polka-dotted unicorns. :D

DarthEnder
1st Jun 2009, 19:21
I've never been so insulted!

All of you! Reported!

Also, Unicorns are vicious foes. They can tell where there shot is going to bounce too before they shoot it.


You know what's awesome though? When you think a mission is going to be a stupid monster lair level and it turns out to be a kickass level instead.

Like Song of the Caverns. You look at the map and think "Ugh, what is this? A crayman level?" and then 10 minutes in, BAM! your robbing snobs of their jewelry.

Or Kidnap. You think, "Dammit, this city again. That means burricks and those damn motion sensitive lights..." but then you find out "Hey, the mechanists killed off all the burricks and broke all the lights!"

Epic.

EDIT: I meant Kidnap, not Precious Cargo.

Taffer17
1st Jun 2009, 20:36
I remember walkin in to the room of the woman with a urn with ashes of her baby in it. The urn was standing at the table and suddently you could hear a baby cry in the background and tone up over all the other screams and crying voices in the Cradle.

omg that was terrifying. when the baby cried i nearly crapped my pants :hmm: that was the second scariest moment of the thief series for me. the first was when i was walking upstairs to the attic and u hear this loud pounding get louder and faster and then suddenly it stops! i still havent figured out if its the door upstairs knocking or if its the sound of footsteps running up the steps towards me (originally when it happened i thought it was a ghost running after me), but when i played it for the first time, i felt my heart stop beating. i've never been so scared in my life...and this was in the dark with surround sound too so i heard it behind me!

i hope they can recreat that sheer terror of the cradle int he next game. i remember having the crap scared out of me and not being able to play return to the cathedral for the longest time. thief has always been great at accomplishing that stuff. although the problem with levels like the cradle, certain audio triggers like that dont scare u anymore after the first time u play, although the other audio and lighting certainly is just as scary. and outrunning the hammer zombies was always scary. :nut:

ah i love those games. hooray for nostalgia! :D

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
1st Jun 2009, 21:48
when i was walking upstairs to the attic and u hear this loud pounding get louder and faster and then suddenly it stops!

brrrrrrrrrrrr. That was probably the biggest scare a video game ever gave me there. It was a lone door at the top of those stairs shaking like some nasty on the other side was trying to get through. I kept leaving that spot because I was too scared. When I noticed there was truly nowhere else to go I went for it. Almost had to stop playing because I was so scared. The defining moment of that level was opening that door to see.....NOTHING. LOL they totally made me think there was gonna be a BOO moment but no, nothing. That's the cradle as I remember it. A whole lot of nothing, scary done right.

Late night with surround sound as well.

ToMegaTherion
1st Jun 2009, 22:11
There were a few cool moments like that in the Cradle where I was left looking around left and right, fire arrow draw, looking for something to shoot, but there was nothing there.

huzi73
2nd Jun 2009, 21:22
I've never been so insulted!

All of you! Reported!

Also, Unicorns are vicious foes. They can tell where there shot is going to bounce too before they shoot it.


You know what's awesome though? When you think a mission is going to be a stupid monster lair level and it turns out to be a kickass level instead.

Like Song of the Caverns. You look at the map and think "Ugh, what is this? A crayman level?" and then 10 minutes in, BAM! your robbing snobs of their jewelry.

Or Precious Cargo. You think, "Dammit, this city again. That meas burrick and those damn motion sensitive lights..." but then you find out "Hey, the mechanists killed off all the burricks and broke all the lights!"

Epic.

I shared the same thoughts going into the precious cargo level.Thanks for not being like some other posters here (a pain in the ass)who take purely light hearted fun poking comments personally and immediately report.You know,I've been wondering why I just cant recall being terrified in thd cradle level,and just now,I realised I played that entire level with the volume on zero upon entering the hatch!I cant recall if i turned the volume down due to being scared,or because there were guests at my house or something...

BoldEnglishman
2nd Jun 2009, 21:37
Or Precious Cargo

*ahem* You mean Kidnap? Precious Cargo was the lighthouse level. :P

Taffer17
2nd Jun 2009, 21:46
Undead in Thief always evoked me (not in any particular order) loathing, horror, pity, terror, a sort of charitable bloodthirstiness (those poor guys really need/deserve death). The point is that all these emotions were evoked at once, and combined into a new feeling/emotion I have no word for.


There's a word for that. Agoobwa!

name the tv show that i just referenced and u win a million bucks! lol

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 22:12
*ahem* You mean Kidnap?Indeed I do.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
3rd Jun 2009, 10:27
I cant recall if i turned the volume down due to being scared,or because there were guests at my house or something...

heh I do that when I watch scary movies. I just hate the cheap scare of swelling music. Without the violins going SCRREEEEEEEYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! You can see just how not-scary most movies really are.

Immano
3rd Jun 2009, 23:30
This is a Thief game. Thief games rely on precise things, and the undead are part of it. They're part of the City, in fact they are ONE DISTRICT of the City. They belong to the religion, the mysticism and the history of this world, they recur and were present in some of the most defining moments of this game. They cannot be done without.

MasterTaffer
3rd Jun 2009, 23:32
This is a Thief game. Thief games rely on precise things, and the undead are part of it. They're part of the City, in fact they are ONE DISTRICT of the City. They belong to the religion, the mysticism and the history of this world, they recur and were present in some of the most defining moments of this game. They cannot be done without.

Actually, they are PART of one district. Only one section of the Old Quarter is walled off, not the whole district. Not to be nitpicky...

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 00:44
I don't know exactly how I feel about undead. They scare the living daylights out of me, and I certainly don't enjoy being around them.

However, I think I get some kind of twisted kick out of them, in a way. It's like an "oh my god, I'm glad that's over" moment of relief. And then I laugh at myself being so scared, and give myself a pat on the back for making it through. In a way it's kind of fun once it's over. But then again, I'm not the kind to get nightmares about them, so I don't feel as strongly as some.

I think a few zombies or Haunts are good for the game. Too many, and it starts to be torturous instead of disturbingly fun. But nothing stupid like the cross-legged sitting skeleton that sits around and pivots its skull back and forth until you shoot it with a broadhead. That's just comical.

Zahr Dalsk
4th Jun 2009, 01:01
Haunts are awesome, and I'd like to see more of them. And not the silly Thief DS ones. Proper Haunts of the sort from 1 and 2.

Question though, because I haven't played TDP in ages (just TMA), are Haunts allied with the Hammerites, or were they enemies? Or was it never stated/observed?

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 01:05
Haunts are awesome, and I'd like to see more of them. And not the silly Thief DS ones. Proper Haunts of the sort from 1 and 2.

Question though, because I haven't played TDP in ages (just TMA), are Haunts allied with the Hammerites, or were they enemies? Or was it never stated/observed?

Haunts are undead and hate all the living. They would kill Hammers with unwavering contempt just like they would any other living thing.

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 01:05
Does anyone know why only hammers can become haunts, and pagans ghosts? Well, I mean is there anything in game or by TTLG that explains why this horrid thing happens to some hammerites?

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 01:10
Does anyone know why only hammers can become haunts, and pagans ghosts? Well, I mean is there anything in game or by TTLG that explains why this horrid thing happens to some hammerites?

It's never really explained by Looking Glass Studios if it's just Hammerite holy warriors that this happens to. My personal theory is that a Haunt rises when a holy burial site is desecrated by theft or vandalism. I like to believe it could happen to holy Pagan warriors as well, but there's never been any evidence in game of that happening.

Zahr Dalsk
4th Jun 2009, 01:17
Haunts are undead and hate all the living. They would kill Hammers with unwavering contempt just like they would any other living thing.

Thanks :) I couldn't find that info anywhere.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 01:19
Thanks :) I couldn't find that info anywhere.

From a more technical standpoint, Haunts are deignated in DromED as "Hostile Team 5." Hammerites are "Hostile Team 1." So if you created a room and put them in it without altering their teams, they'de immediately beat the ever living crap out of each other.

And most the time when I did, the Haunt always won 1 on 1 matches... :whistle:

DarthEnder
4th Jun 2009, 03:58
It's never really explained by Looking Glass Studios if it's just Hammerite holy warriors that this happens to. My personal theory is that a Haunt rises when a holy burial site is desecrated by theft or vandalism. I like to believe it could happen to holy Pagan warriors as well, but there's never been any evidence in game of that happening.I always thought it was just that someone who rose from the dead with weapons and armor became a haunt and unarmed servants and peasants became zombies, and people who knew magic became ghosts.

But that's probably just a gameplay division, not a storyline one. :p

Taffer17
4th Jun 2009, 04:14
Does anyone know why only hammers can become haunts, and pagans ghosts? Well, I mean is there anything in game or by TTLG that explains why this horrid thing happens to some hammerites?



there are Hammerite ghosts...how about the one in Return to the Cathedral? and then there were some other ghosts in the library in TMA that weren'tpagan...and of course the ghost in the cradle.

MasterTaffer
4th Jun 2009, 04:17
there are Hammerite ghosts...how about the one in Return to the Cathedral? and then there were some other ghosts in the library in TMA that weren'tpagan...and of course the ghost in the cradle.

He's talking about Haunts, not apparitions.

Hypevosa
4th Jun 2009, 04:38
I mainly meant how you don't see pagan haunts, or even zombies for that matter.

Rachie
4th Jun 2009, 04:42
It was hard to love the Cradle as I was playing it, but I can look back favourably on those few hours now I'm not there. I made the stupid mistake of playing it 'til nearly 2 am and then turning the lights off to get back to my room. :lol: I kept expecting undead to come around the corner! How Garrett could stand being there is beyond my understanding!

And those Hammer Haunts were really horrid.....first time I played, I thought it was a normal Hammerite and went to bludgen it, but when it started making creepy noises and I saw another in the distance with a skeleton face, I nearly died and bolted. :lol:

The whole concept of having to sneak around scary levels and avoid creatures, and not be able to take them down instantly is fantastic in Thief. And something that works so well should not be left out, do you not agree? :D So they should definately have at least one, but too many and I don't think I'll ever sleep!

BoldEnglishman
4th Jun 2009, 10:27
I think the reason we only see Haunts as "Hammer Haunts" - originally at least - is because of the Hammerites' proximity to the Eye. The Eye basically created all the undead in the Old Quarter, and the living Hammerites that died in combat came back as Haunts. I guess it could happen to anyone, no matter their faction, it just happened to be Hammerites at the time. The Bonehoard was also constructed by Hammerites (inferred by an unused readable), so that explains the presence of a Haunt there. Likewise, the Haunts in Eavesdropping from Thief II are there because the Mechanist Seminary was once an old Hammerite Cathedral. Again, the Haunt underneath Truart's mansion is there because the chapel is a Hammerite chapel.

However, there are some Haunt appearances which I can't really explain. Haunts in the Serpentyle Torc mansion?

Also, you can get the Haunts to fight the living in the original game without any alterations. If you open up the crypts in Eavesdropping and lure them out, they go absolutely psycho on the Mechanists. The only thing that can really stop them is the Iron Beast out the front.

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 11:49
I don't know exactly how I feel about undead. They scare the living daylights out of me, and I certainly don't enjoy being around them.

However, I think I get some kind of twisted kick out of them, in a way. It's like an "oh my god, I'm glad that's over" moment of relief. And then I laugh at myself being so scared, and give myself a pat on the back for making it through. In a way it's kind of fun once it's over. But then again, I'm not the kind to get nightmares about them, so I don't feel as strongly as some.

Exactly my thoughts




I think a few zombies or Haunts are good for the game. Too many, and it starts to be torturous instead of disturbingly fun. But nothing stupid like the cross-legged sitting skeleton that sits around and pivots its skull back and forth until you shoot it with a broadhead. That's just comical.

No,it was a trap, warning you not to come any closer, it was not ai, it was not undead,just a simple trap set by the Hammers.

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 19:20
I lose, then.

TheEye
6th Jul 2009, 11:04
yeah, haunted missions are a great part of thief and really add to the atmoshere

Ravensnest
7th Jul 2009, 00:52
I don't know exactly how I feel about undead. They scare the living daylights out of me, and I certainly don't enjoy being around them.

However, I think I get some kind of twisted kick out of them, in a way. It's like an "oh my god, I'm glad that's over" moment of relief. And then I laugh at myself being so scared, and give myself a pat on the back for making it through.

I totally agree. I absolutely HATE cheats in any form including walkthroughs ect believing that they completely detract from the entire point of buying and playing a game (that's just my personal opinion though) however I listened to the briefings for return to the cathedral and the cradle and listened to the opening music and immediately alt tabbed out and found a walkthrough. I think that's what scares me most about those levels the sense of not knowing where the opponents are or what the motivation is. I get very immersed in the Thief games (played all TDS in first person) and kinda emphasise with the guards (one of the reasons i try very hard not to kill them) but I cant do that with the undead (especially the cradle ones they scared the **** out of me :D

donsgood
19th Jul 2009, 06:23
Yea they are apart of Theif. At first i didnt like them because they were scary. But now i realise that we need them. They make the game what it is. Nothing like stumbling onto a hidden tomb, and not knowing wtf to do with all kinds of scary mothers. The cradle was amazing. I was scared guys, but i loved it. It was very refreshing to make it out alive. I will never forget playing that the first time

Platinumoxicity
19th Jul 2009, 09:39
In order to make a scary level, the devs really need to consider making everything more unpredictable and random. The Cradle simply failed to be anything other than a very long and dark mission on the 2nd playthrough. If there is an overhyped haunted level that relies completely on the fact that the player doesn't yet know exactly what's coming because it's the first playthrough, I want 1/15 of my money back.

I don't want the one haunted level to be "use-and-toss" -expendable after 1st try. :( It needs to be new every single time you start playing.

ToMegaTherion
19th Jul 2009, 10:50
That might be quite an ambitious requirement. Do you know of any good examples of that sort of thing from other games?

Platinumoxicity
19th Jul 2009, 13:01
That might be quite an ambitious requirement. Do you know of any good examples of that sort of thing from other games?

No, but making erratic and unpredictable AI isn't that hard to do. Also, randomly playing scripted spooks and sounds aren't that hard to code. Also, ambient sounds that are identical to those that monsters make are very easy to make. Random isn't hard, unless it's entire detailed levels randomly built like in TF2.

esme
20th Jul 2009, 11:17
No, but making erratic and unpredictable AI isn't that hard to do. Also, randomly playing scripted spooks and sounds aren't that hard to code. Also, ambient sounds that are identical to those that monsters make are very easy to make. Random isn't hard, unless it's entire detailed levels randomly built like in TF2.

random may not be hard in itself but preventing the AI getting stuck on the scenery, walking into walls or even off the map never to return can be quite difficult

SloopJohn
20th Jul 2009, 11:20
This is a Thief game. Thief games rely on precise things, and the undead are part of it. They're part of the City, in fact they are ONE DISTRICT of the City. They belong to the religion, the mysticism and the history of this world, they recur and were present in some of the most defining moments of this game. They cannot be done without.

this is spot on

if you buy into the Thief universe then undead is a must

Platinumoxicity
20th Jul 2009, 14:51
random may not be hard in itself but preventing the AI getting stuck on the scenery, walking into walls or even off the map never to return can be quite difficult

What has that got to do with anything I said? :confused: That's basic AI design. You know, in many games after the 80's the AIs have been able to avoid walking into walls.

Fatherwoodsie
20th Jul 2009, 17:34
i kinda like glitches and retartd AI's walking into walls and spinning around and shaking their fists in the wrong direction

kabatta
20th Jul 2009, 18:34
Is it wrong to want to have my special mission fille with undead where i can chop off limbs? If it is, I don't want to be right. Undead missions are a must. I say: bring on the zombies, the haunts, the aparitions and a clown. Maybe insert a "tastes funny" joke. >:)

KittyCatAngel
20th Jul 2009, 18:37
Is it wrong to want to have my special mission fille with undead where i can chop off limbs? If it is, I don't want to be right. Undead missions are a must. I say: bring on the zombies, the haunts, the aparitions and a clown. Maybe insert a "tastes funny" joke. >:)

Exploding zombies :thumb: THE ONLY WAY TO FLY!

Nothing better than picking up a zombie head and chucking it at the others, then squealing with piggy glee.

What? You all do that too, right? :nut:

Kold
21st Jul 2009, 01:07
Ive only played TDS, but i thought the haunted levels in it (Abysmal Gale and The Cradle) were great.. A haunted ship ending up at dock was a great idea, and the goal of getting on the ship was finding clues to what happened and such... And the Cradle practically made me piss myself, and that whole level was brilliant! Lauryl (sp?) was a good touch, how you find her and all the things you gotta do.. the things you find throughout the cradle, like stories of King No.One (clever play on words), and the history of the cradle all added to the creepiness

kungfuasaurus
21st Jul 2009, 05:35
In my opinion, entirely taking out the undead is like taking out the Hammers or Pagans. I agree that it shouldn't be overdone, but I definitely think it is a necessity to one degree or another. One thing that might actually be interesting that they've never done is actually have the undead spread out in large amounts throughout the populated city (even if there is no city-hub like in Thief 3). This would depend on the story, but could be an interesting mechanic if done correctly and would switch things up a bit. Either way, Thief has always had undead in it, so whether you like it or not, it's a part of the game.

KittyCatAngel
21st Jul 2009, 09:05
In my opinion, entirely taking out the undead is like taking out the Hammers or Pagans. I agree that it shouldn't be overdone, but I definitely think it is a necessity to one degree or another. One thing that might actually be interesting that they've never done is actually have the undead spread out in large amounts throughout the populated city (even if there is no city-hub like in Thief 3). This would depend on the story, but could be an interesting mechanic if done correctly and would switch things up a bit. Either way, Thief has always had undead in it, so whether you like it or not, it's a part of the game.

Yep! I mean, there's a whole closed up area of the map in TDP where the undead thrive. Using that they could very easily open up the story to some undead mayhem.

"What's this? There's a hole in this wall..."

DUN DUN DUN DUN!!

Flashart
21st Jul 2009, 11:17
Most scary levels are going to "one hit" wonders. By it's definition, fear is always going to part of the unknown. Once you've been there any level will have the shine taken off it.
I've recently played "Cradle" for the 3rd time, and it wasn't that scary, but it still had a few tense moments, and was still a good level.
But as a single hit, what a hit! I'd put it No.1 scary level closely followed by RTTC, which again, once you know what coming, isn't that scary, but still a competent level.

ToMegaTherion
21st Jul 2009, 11:22
My favourite scary level in a video game is Ocean House from Vampire: Bloodlines. This is only scary for the first time as well, but it was sufficiently brilliant for that not to matter to me. I doubt they could have made it as good in a replayable fashion.

kabatta
21st Jul 2009, 11:34
I thougth that the scariest moment was in the plague building. The tzimisci house was just creepy, and...alas...the giovannies jmansion got a good atmosphere too. Darn it...now I want to play that game again alltough i know every little detail. A great game haunt you to finish it withouth cheats (in my defense it was frustration).

René
21st Jul 2009, 20:27
My favourite scary level in a video game is Ocean House from Vampire: Bloodlines.

Holy crap I remember that! Scared the pants off me! If I recall, there were some old construction machines outside and then inside you went into the basement laundry chute...wow that freaked me out and I was so happy to get out of there! Great game!

hellwalker
22nd Jul 2009, 01:28
I want em...

Pieter888
24th Jul 2009, 19:38
I remember reading a fully detailed review about the cradle of TDS, it's scary atmosphere was just the way it should be. They mentioned thief not being focused on the "BOO" kind of scariness that F.E.A.R. like to make use of, but it's all about atmosphere.

ah here it is: http://gillen.cream.org/thecradle.pdf

Like the designer of the cradle said: “I want my scares to
leave scars...”

And that's exactly what he did :)

hammerite
24th Jul 2009, 22:50
personally I was never a fan of the "SCARY" levels in the first two games, BUT the asylum level in TDS was one of the scariest pieces of game ever even though the rest of the game was pants.... just that one level, I still play it once in a while and it still has the odd shock or two :)

HungryHungryHippogriff
25th Jul 2009, 01:13
I don't have a problem with scary levels. With that said, I wouldn't want all of the levels to be horror-based, but I doubt that anyone is proposing that, anyway. Sure, bring in two or three ones that, if not dedicated to scary stuff, at least have some creepy parts to them (such as the catacombs in the Thief 2 level where you need to listen to the Mechanist seminar, or the tree monster scare at the end of Trail of Blood).

Vae
25th Jul 2009, 02:22
What he said.

Platinumoxicity
25th Jul 2009, 08:42
I think the devs should use the same old formula that they've used in the Thief games. Many normal missions, some of them a little bit stranger, and one mission that is more terrifying than anything you've seen in a game ever. They did it with the Cathedral and haunts. They did it again with the Cradle and puppets. The devs should look at Doom 3's closet scares, laugh at them and make their mission scarier than those. They should look at Condemned:criminal origins, flip the finger and make their mission scarier than that game. They should look at Fatal Frame, spit on it and make their mission scarier than that game.

Thief isn't a survival horror game, but it always has one mission that can make your heartrate rise unlike anything ever made before. It must be only my own interpretation, but I think that the devs in LGS ( that later tranferred to ISA) had that goal in mind, to have just one mission that is the scariest thing that they could possibly imagine, and if there are some creepy parts in the rest of the game, they don't compare to that one mission by a long shot.

KittyCatAngel
25th Jul 2009, 09:57
Although I loved The Metal Age, I must admit I did miss the trepidation I felt in the undead levels of The Dark Project and I relished in the atmosphere of The Cradle in TDS.

I think Thief 4 has this amazing opportunity to be a great mix of both. Less undead levels than TDP, but a nice sprinkle of them non-the-less.

That's just my 2 cents :D

GTBuzz
26th Jul 2009, 23:23
The Dark Project had just the right amount of undead / supernatural levels.

I like Theif2 for the fan made missions, but the metal age game itself just seemed boring to me. The missions all felt the same with guards and robots. It was missing the undead to change up the missions.

Bring on the undead.

Vae
27th Jul 2009, 00:11
Yes, bring on the undead, except for the so called "zombies" in TDS. Those crazy old people...eh... I mean zombies made me very ANGRY :mad:............:rolleyes:...........:D

gryphos
28th Jul 2009, 15:48
>>Yep! I mean, there's a whole closed up area of the map in TDP where the undead thrive. Using that they could very easily open up the story to some undead mayhem.
"What's this? There's a hole in this wall..."

I'm just thinking of some cleverly malicious haunt standing in the shadows of the hole in the wall telling every guard patrol that comes: "Go quick! Need more guards!" as the last patrol is getting it's brains munched by the zombies on the other side...

esme
28th Jul 2009, 15:52
bit like a zombie drive through burger bar type thing ;)