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GmanPro
28th May 2009, 05:20
*I'm going to elaborate on this point for a bit because I think its really important.

I find it unacceptable that these were removed in TDS for a number of reasons.

-- Rope arrows have become a symbol really. Of freedom, of immersion, of what not to exclude from a Thief game. H4xing rope arrows into TDS would hardly have helped either, because the levels were so tiny and there weren't any rooftops to explore anyway.

-- Isn't the whole point of a sequel to add to/improve upon what has already been done? All the best sequels in gaming history have followed the same formula. Give the players more of what they want and less of what they don't. It was true for


Thief 2
Baldur's Gate 2
Freespace 2
Age of Empires 2
System Shock 2
Fallout 2
Diablo 2
etc...


But when you look at games that tried to break the mold by removing/altering existing gameplay elements, you run into some of the worst sequels ever.


Oblivion
TDS
Age of Empires 3
Dawn of War 2
Invisible War
Fallout 3
etc...


The list goes on and on.

________________________________


>> Oblivion had numerous flaws and some of them bear striking resemblances to TDS's shortcomings. Morrowind featured levitation and teleportation as a means of exploring the game world. Bethesda removed these elements in Oblivion for much the same reasons as Ion Storm with TDS. The engine did not want to cooperate and they wanted to get the game out of the door quickly.
>> The game was also full of minor details that served to streamline the gameplay and make it more accessible to people who have short attention spans and probably do not even really want to be playing the game. Worst design philosophy ever. Enemy/loot level scaling falls under the same topic. Just plain laziness on the part of the developer. The idea in and of itself reeks of mediocrity. I suppose if that is all you are shooting for as a studio then by all means, streamline your products.

________________________________

>> The same ideas were used in games like IW and DoW2 because the developers were (and most still are) under the impression that less granularity is better. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Once you start cutting out "needless" things from the game you can never stop.
>> I find that the worst thing about these games is that some of them were almost good. It just leaves me feeling frustrated and bitter because I know that they could have been so much better.

________________________________

>> Bottom line is, everyone here loves Thief in all it's glory and there is nothing so wrong with TDP/TMA that it needs to be removed entirely. Yet Ion Storm thought differently. I implore you EM to disregard every change to the gameplay mechanics in TDS. Focus on Thief 2 as a starting platform and continue to add to the formula as TTLG did. And for the love of all that is good in the world, DO NOT release the game before it is ready. Do it right, or don't do it at all. Half of TDS's problems (not all, because the devs were quite set in their ways unfortunately) could have been rectified if only Ion Storm had more time to polish the game.

EM, If Square-Enix starts breathing down your neck to release the game too soon, let me know and I will personally write them a persuasive/angry letter on your behalf to buy more time. :thumb: :D

WhatsHisFace
28th May 2009, 05:51
I really have to agree. To return to this franchise properly, they really have to deliver on reproducing all that made it great, in the same overall context. Hopefully they don't make the DX3 mistake and have Garrett smash through walls to "defeat enemies."

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th May 2009, 09:38
^
Are you talking about the punch augmentation in DX3? I checked the FAQs and it says: "Punch - to breach walls and open up new paths in a level or find bonuses". It doesn't say anything about defeating enemies. Anyway, this sounds a good feature to me, nothing wrong with it for the main character of DX3. It seems an irrelevant comparison as the two games are so different and it is unlikely that EM will make Garrett punch through walls. Lets keep this thread on topic so the devs can read our reasonable opinions and not our irrational fears. ;)

__

Back on topic.

GmanPro, thank you again for an excellent post - this time regarding the rope (or vine) arrow. :thumb:
I also believe it must return in T4, together with the thieves' highway (rooftop freedom).

In T: DS, I really missed this element of gameplay. I couldn't think like a thief anymore, I couldn't access lofty places to search for open windows to find a bag of coins or other treasure to increase my nightly takings.

The rope arrow was SOOOOOOO much fun and provided the player with the option to explore places that were not actually necessary to complete the main objective of the mission etc. This was an important non-linear element of the previous Thief games.

Yes, please note devs, the rope arrow is a MUST HAVE for Thief 4. :cool:

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 10:21
I feel like somebody is going to come in here and say that rope arrows were unrealistic. I don't think they are any more unrealistic than, say, a moss arrow. And vine arrows on the other hand allow you to completely suspend your belief because those couldn't be anything other than magic.

___________

Anyway, realism is besides the point. We all wish that there was more of the Thieves Highway in TDS. Especially with the open city district idea. I spent half the game waiting in anticipation for the time when I could finally acquire the climbing gloves and begin dashing across the rooftops. Only to realize that there was no roof access except for that tiny strip in Old Quarter. Massively disappointing. :( One of the best gameplay features of the entire Thief series ... was removed due to laziness.

DarthEnder
28th May 2009, 10:46
I always preferred the vine arrows. Because, like you said, they seemed like elemental magic very much in the same vein as moss arrows.

Rope arrows were always kinda...are they magic? Or are they just arrows with ropes tied to them and really poorly implimented physics? If it's magic it doesn't mesh with the natural elements of the other magic arrows.


I say rope arrows gone forever, to be replaced permanently with vine arrows.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th May 2009, 10:56
Yes, I really don't mind if they are rope or vine arrows as both served the same purpose, and that purpose is the relevant point behind this discussion. :cool:

Gabriel
28th May 2009, 11:30
Don't really have anything to add to the discussion, because the OP said it all too well.
Although I confess that at this point I'm not that confident T4 will turn out to be good (due to some interview answers, the THI4F logo etc.), I hope the devs are actually paying attention to the forums and especially to the hardcore fans, as well as some great innovative ideas on here so that they deliver a game in the spirit of the Thief franchise. They actually have a real chance of doing it right, since they're at the very beginning of the game and have a whole lot of fan feedback/ideas.

Once again, I hope you don't get too excited with innovation and overdo it, or dumb down the gameplay, play the original Thief games (mostly 1 and 2) as they are pretty much the perfect base for Thief 4 and read these forums and you should be set. The good old fans will love you, you will make a ****load of money and all of us will be happy.

I know this has been said over and over again, but I can't help but repeat it as many times as I can hoping that the devs do the right thing. Thief's my favorite game series ever, so I can't help but be protective of it :)

ToMegaTherion
28th May 2009, 11:36
I agree about the rope arrow, but some of those Worst Sequels Ever are plenty fun :)

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 11:38
Pretty fun, maybe. But only a tiny fraction of what they could have been


>> I find that the worst thing about these games is that some of them were almost good. It just leaves me feeling frustrated and bitter because I know that they could have been so much better.

And none of them can even hold a candle to the list above

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th May 2009, 11:38
Don't really have anything to add to the discussion, because the OP said it all too well.
Although I confess that at this point I'm not that confident T4 will turn out to be good (due to some interview answers, the THI4F logo etc.), I hope the devs are actually paying attention to the forums and especially to the hardcore fans, as well as some great innovative ideas on here so that they deliver a game in the spirit of the Thief franchise. They actually have a real chance of doing it right, since they're at the very beginning of the game and have a whole lot of fan feedback/ideas.



Have you read the latest interview transcript in City Watch?
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88482&page=4

It sounds very promising to me. :cool:

As for the 'Thiaf' logo, it is only a temporary working title, so please don't worry about it.

Yes, the devs are looking at the discussion on this forum, absolutely. :thumb:
So, everyone, lets hear more of your opinions on the re-introduction of the rope/vine arrow.

Sierra Oscar
28th May 2009, 11:43
I would like to see the rope arrow return.


I agree about the rope arrow, but some of those Worst Sequels Ever are plenty fun :)

Totally agree . . . games change.

esme
28th May 2009, 11:44
the problem with rope arrows in TDS was caused by the choice of engine, it had this peculiar climbing mechanism where the avatar became welded to the climbable object and could only let go by jumping off, so you couldn't climb round a ladder for or turn round and jump to a ledge for example, this made implementing rope arrows extremely difficult as, once deployed, they can be viewed as a very thin ladders

this could have been fixed by modifying the engine but that would have taken time away from level development as you can't design a level that uses rope arrows until you've got ones that work, it would have delayed the release date and from what I've seen that was always set in stone from day one

but rope arrows gave the game a freedom not found in other games and so the developers tried to bring back some of the functionality by creating climbing gloves which when worn would activate ladder like capabilities in some wall surfaces and make them climbable, it was a relatively easy bodge, but unfortunately didn't provide anything like what could be achieved with a proper rope arrow, you were still stuck to a surface with a limited field of view and a limited range of movement

so losing rope arrows in TDS was basically about making money by exploiting the franchise and not about making a game in the Thief mould

now I understand money has to be made or the franchise folds but details like rope arrows are what make the thief franchise successful

so please don't leap straight into level development and design, take some time to get the engine to support important features like rope arrows

and if you aren't sure what the important features are, there are plenty of threads in this forum that will tell you

Gabriel
28th May 2009, 12:00
Thanks for that, Viktoria. Still doesn't convince me, though, sorry :P
Anyway, there's not much we can do at this point but wait and see what they will unveil next about the game.

It better have rope arrows! http://sinisterclub.com/images/smilies/Smiley_ShakeFist.gif

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th May 2009, 12:05
It better have rope arrows! http://sinisterclub.com/images/smilies/Smiley_ShakeFist.gif

Haha, cute smiley. :D

Vae
29th May 2009, 07:16
I feel like somebody is going to come in here and say that rope arrows were unrealistic. I don't think they are any more unrealistic than, say, a moss arrow. And vine arrows on the other hand allow you to completely suspend your belief because those couldn't be anything other than magic.

___________

Anyway, realism is besides the point. We all wish that there was more of the Thieves Highway in TDS. Especially with the open city district idea. I spent half the game waiting in anticipation for the time when I could finally acquire the climbing gloves and begin dashing across the rooftops. Only to realize that there was no roof access except for that tiny strip in Old Quarter. Massively disappointing. :( One of the best gameplay features of the entire Thief series ... was removed due to laziness.

I couldn't agree more.

In all ways Rope Arrows are better than Cimbing Gloves.

Rope Arrows = creative application of problem solving + non-linear thinking + varied visual perspectives = experiential satisfaction.

Climbing Gloves = unchallenging problem solving + linear thinking + limited applictions = NO

Hypevosa
29th May 2009, 07:32
Yes, something we can all agree on...

PS I also agree to the writing an angry letter part if they rush you...

Lady_Of_The_Vine
29th May 2009, 09:24
When EM release some further information on T4, I hope that one of the points they will confirm is the return of the rope arrow. This news would certainly make me shake my leaves in joy! :D

CheesyCat
31st May 2009, 20:38
I'd like to add my voice to the pro-rope arrows group also.

Rope arrows allowed you a freedom in a level that was not apparent in TDS.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st May 2009, 21:42
^es, I think we all agree on this. :cool:

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
31st May 2009, 22:11
Yup, I agree. Rope arrows need to be in.

While I'm at it, maybe I just sucked at it, but I'd like to be able to jump off ladders and rope arrows more reliably. I had a knack for jumping right to my doom. Is this just me? I can hardly ever seem to jump where I mean to on the first attempt.

Lol @ the list of games. Couldn't agree more. Part 2 usually seems to be the best part. Certainly not the case with Call of Duty though (unless you count the expansion).

EMCEE
2nd Jun 2009, 18:56
rope/vine arrows! Glows, as I think, weren't realistic and interesting 2 climb.

mister_riz
4th Jun 2009, 00:26
I agree with OP entirely tbh

Albi
3rd Aug 2009, 07:50
rope arrows shouldnt be magical. just attach rope to arrow.

ToMegaTherion
3rd Aug 2009, 12:54
Although it would be less realistic, it wouldn't deny anything really. There's no reason to litter a perfectly good response with inaccuracies.

PJMaybe
3rd Aug 2009, 13:15
I heartily look forward to the return of the rope arrows. They are a very thiefy piece of equipment to have. However, I hope they don't relax on the idea that returning the rope arrows will be enough to be 'classic' Thief. Having rope arrows does not make the game great in itself. The interviews and announcements we have heard so far have left me somewhere in limbo as to which way they are taking this game. I think they are purposfully being vague about it all (because they always are at this early stage) but statements like "So, our goal is to bring back this classic on a new level; one that’s never been seen before.” leaves me thinking that they are not making another Thief game - just another game with the same characters, settings and a similar story line.

esme
3rd Aug 2009, 13:39
to be honest I don't care if rope arrows work by nanotechnology, clockwork, steam, magic or wishful thinking as long as they are included in T4

it would be nice if there were a reasonable explanation for their operation but for me such an explanation isn't vital

jtr7
3rd Aug 2009, 13:49
At first the devs said it "reeled" down a rope after sticking in. The TMA intro shows it striking, sinking only a little of the tip in and making a few splinters, THEN wiggling, THEN becoming rigid, THEN the rope flies up and out. They are clearly accepting and demonstrating that it's not following ANY natural laws we understand. Since it's fantasy, I accept that. Remove fantasy and the game collapses and is mostly non-existent.


I will be shocked if rope arrows aren't implemented. EM knows the great majority of us want them.

Vae
3rd Aug 2009, 23:29
Yeah, the rope arrow seems to be enchanted by the way it behaves and this fits nicely in thief as another magical arrow. There will probably be protests on the EM property if they do not include rope arrows in T4.

Squid
4th Aug 2009, 02:58
I'll add in my voice to the "must have rope arrows" group... with one caveat. The levels must be designed for rope arrow use. It would be pointless to have them if the levels did not reflect their capabilities. I don't mean the arrows must be mandatory, but that there are plenty of opportunities to use arrows to further the player's goals and objectives. Remember in "Casing the Joint" how rope arrows allowed one to avoid the corridors? You could have prowled the hallways, avoiding the bots, (in fact, I did until I noticed the ceiling beams,) or you could have made your job easier by using the beams as a "Thief's Highway".

Rope arrow use was wondering in T1&2... climbing gloves were almost pointless in T3. Bring back the rope arrows!

Squid

xDarknessFallsx
4th Aug 2009, 03:35
Yes, it was an awesome discovery in Casing the Joint how you could traverse down hallways while up on beams. I think I missed them the very first time I played that level as a Thief padawan learner, then when I found them in my next playthru I was like hallelujah! I praised the master builder (LGS, in this case) when I discovered this, lol. Yeah, I just played that level a few weeks back and still love being up on those beams. EM really needs to be creative like this for rope arrows. It would be wonderful to discover 'thieve's highways' indoors like this at times. Don't want it implemented too many times, or it becomes like TDS' shadow paths. But I would love it another time or two. (I think anything that gets over-used becomes passe. Imagine if every Thief level had a thief's highway. I think we'd long for level to NOT have one.)

But for rope arrows, in general, not speaking about 'thief's highway'... i hope EM has some nice areas for us to find/explore by using rope arrows...and has a nice balance of making the areas hard to find and where we get filled with wonder and amazement by the level of care and detail the EM developers committed to the game.

jtr7
4th Aug 2009, 03:41
I would love it if there were wooden beams, supports, ceilings, walkways, rails, stairs, window frames, and eaves that had no mission purpose, but were usable, just to give that sense of freedom, realism of the architecture, and to help make the purposeful placement of climbing and discovery opportunities less obvious.

PJMaybe
4th Aug 2009, 08:14
Absolutely! Being able to get up onto ledges and rafters just because you can was a great part of the exploration in Thief.

Vae
4th Aug 2009, 11:25
Yes. We must have this back. This was stolen from us in TDS and its effects were felt everywhere. This has a BIG impact on the joy of exploration within the world, which is fundamental to THIEF. This concept should be expanded on to the fullest possible extent.

Flashart
4th Aug 2009, 19:09
I agree with everything, but will add the caveat that the inclusion of rope arrows would not represent a talisman of the game's success. It's the freedom that goes with them that is the key. If the arrows proved once again too difficult it would be better to introduce something that could give an equal amount of exploration rather than waste time forcing something that won't work correctly. I want to see them back as much as anyone, but they are a luxury not a divine right.
(ie "It's not Thief if it hasn't got rope arrows!")

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Aug 2009, 21:12
Every night, in my dreams, I fire a magic Wish Arrow at the pagan shrine and pray that EM will give us back the rope arrow. :cool:

xDarknessFallsx
4th Aug 2009, 22:01
Aww, that was sweet, Viktoria :) I heart you.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Aug 2009, 16:23
Aww, that was sweet, Viktoria :) I heart you.

No, its very sweet of YOU. I was expecting someone to suggest I get help, haha. :D

Direlord
5th Aug 2009, 18:02
well i'd only say you'd need help if you actually have a pagan shrine of someway and you take a bow with an arrow that has a crystal in front with water and glitter or something and you call it magic and your wish arrow......

yeah then i would say might be time to see the men in white.

i'm all for the rope/vine arrow as it is obvious most if not all that read here are.

i do disagree on the sequel list though

Not all sequels should be exactly like their predecessors (sp) following the spirit of the game can be enough.

Yaphy
5th Aug 2009, 22:33
oh my...such a language! *faint*

jtr7
6th Aug 2009, 03:31
I'd hate to see what happens when the Wolf actually gets angry! :eek:



;)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Aug 2009, 21:20
I get angrier. Wolkenwolf, do not avoid the censor again please. I never make a request twice. Offensive post deleted.

Moosemoose
9th Aug 2009, 21:07
I know that most people (ok, almost all) are against the idea of bringing climbing gloves back, but what would happen if you had rope arrows + the ability to climb up reasonable sloped objects instead of having to find a way around and be blocked by an engine limitation/lack of effort on the creator's part eg. a crumbling wall that you could climb up onto? If so do you think that it would make the game better or worse?

jtr7
9th Aug 2009, 21:45
Most of us are for improved climbing, especially if it's something we could do in real life (though it couldn't really be that detailed). Handholds, the window sills that project out a bit, the roofs that project out a bit, some trees, and other things we see in the games but can't get past due to code limitations. Being blocked by something sticking out above that in real life would make a good handhold could be reduced or eliminated. More and improved intuitive climbing, and if we can't climb someplace, though disappointed, we will know it's on purpose for reasons the devs and testers determined.

Vae
9th Aug 2009, 23:08
Improved climbing = :)
Spiderman climbing = :(

jtr7
9th Aug 2009, 23:21
Yes! \o/

tarhiel
10th Aug 2009, 12:16
I don´t have nothing to add. GmanPro already said it all. Real hardcore Thief fan. And he knows what is good.

Just do it, EM. Bring back rope arrow and take toyr time developing this game.

Targa
11th Nov 2009, 07:43
I know there have been 10,000+ suggestions already, and everyone has an opinion, but I feel I just have to vent before this game is produced. At least then I can say "I told you so", lol.

I'm not going to get into a debate about T3 (for those that actually liked it, which doesn't include myself). But I will say that all you have to do is look at the continuing longevity of Thief 2 fan missions and mission building to know which version of the game is considered the best by the largest number of players.

My own personal statement: If you can't get rope arrows to work like in T2, or you don't plan on even trying to include them, then don't bother making the game. Is it possible to make an enjoyable game that doesn't include rope arrows? Sure you could... but it isn't Thief then, it's some game that pretends to be a Thief game, IMO. I don't know what went wrong with T3, since we did find remnants of code dealing with rope arrows. I find it difficult to believe that it was beyond the programmers capabilities, although you never know.

Anyhoo... that's my 2 cents. Rope Arrows and plenty of places to use them! ;)

-Targa
Targa's House 'O Thief Stuff (http://www.thiefmissions.com/targa)
Targa's House 'O Thief Stuff 2 (http://www.grax.org/targa)

Hecateus
11th Nov 2009, 08:48
I find it difficult to believe that it was beyond the programmers capabilities, although you never know.
The drama was that the programmer got called into other duties before he could finish rope arrows and swimming. And noone told the level/game designers. By the time they realized it, the had only enough time to kluge together climbing gloves and make water instantly deadly. Levels were hastily redone. And then Daikatana failed like a beached humpback whale, and there wasn't enough time to clean things up right as ISA prepared to close doors. The Thief 3 editor was cobbled together for the remaining fans on the last nights the offices were open.

Still worked out pretty well considering.

Aceyalone7777
11th Nov 2009, 08:51
Still, I think this time they will get it right.

They have better funds and organisation. So the prospect of a good game is much on the horizon.

Rope arrows for the win, then!

jtr7
11th Nov 2009, 09:32
Hahaha! Hello Targa! :)

Telex
11th Nov 2009, 17:09
I think you'll find the bulk of us agree with you, most certainly :p

The more and more I learn about TDS's development, the more I think the biggest problem was a simple lack of communication. The team simply didn't know what everyone was doing, which seems crazy. Hopefully EM will learn from this and will actually communicate with one another :nut: This and this alone will probably lead to a game that is lightyears beyond what TDS was/is.

Blue Sky
17th Nov 2009, 12:26
The drama was that the programmer got called into other duties before he could finish rope arrows and swimming. And noone told the level/game designers. By the time they realized it, the had only enough time to kluge together climbing gloves and make water instantly deadly. Levels were hastily redone. And then Daikatana failed like a beached humpback whale, and there wasn't enough time to clean things up right as ISA prepared to close doors.

I don't think much of that is entirely true... There were definitely issues with the guy who developed the engine leaving the project with the engine supposedly only half completed... They were trying to get rope arrows to work, that much is evident, but they couldn't get them to do what they wanted so had to abandon them.

Climbing gloves - I seem to recall them saying - were a new addition anyway, and weren't conceived as a replacement for the rope arrow, but became the primary vertical movement asset when they had to abandon the rope arrow.

And finally, you must mean Deus Ex: Invisible War rather than Daikotana.

esme
17th Nov 2009, 13:46
I don't think much of that is entirely true... There were definitely issues with the guy who developed the engine leaving the project with the engine supposedly only half completed... They were trying to get rope arrows to work, that much is evident, but they couldn't get them to do what they wanted so had to abandon them.

Climbing gloves - I seem to recall them saying - were a new addition anyway, and weren't conceived as a replacement for the rope arrow, but became the primary vertical movement asset when they had to abandon the rope arrow.

And finally, you must mean Deus Ex: Invisible War rather than Daikotana.

I wish it weren't true

here's a partial quote from jtr7 who hung on to posts he found by the original developers


...Some DEV quotes. In no particular chronological order:

First of all, hello everyone, this is my first post. I'm a former Ion Storm Austin designer. I saw on Blue's news that the T-DS editor was released and thought I'd drop in here. I never expected that editor to go out to the public, so this is pretty cool. Now you all can feel our pain Seriously though, I'm sure the fans will be able to make some awesome stuff with it since you won't have to work under the restrictions we had to when developing the game.
-----------------
The engine and tools were rushed, poorly planned and poorly executed in most aspects. Flesh [Engine] has some cool features and some things it does well, but it's a mess on the whole.
------------
We originally licensed the Unreal engine with the intent of using it, but ended up stripping almost everything out besides the editor and making a new engine built from a bare skeleton of Unreal.
------------
It's sort of a funny story how that happened really. The creation of the Flesh engine wasn't really planned. Early on in the development of DX2 and T3 we bandied about the idea of using dynamic shadows for gameplay. A certain programmer who will remain nameless was given the task of adding this into the Unreal engine. He went off on his own for a couple weeks and programmed an entirely new per-pixel lighting renderer. No one really asked him to make a completely new engine, but we didn't mind at first because it looked pretty cool. This was before we discovered the crippling limitations it would put on us.

It wasn't until we had worked with it for a while after said programmer was let go that we found out how crappy the engine really was. By the time we realized how much it sucked, we were already beyond the point of no return and just had to try to make the best of it. Out of necessity our efforts shifted from design to figuring out how to get the game to actually run. Instead of developing the game we wanted, we had to develop whatever we could get to work. We had to cut features left and right, shrink down the levels and comprimise our design because of the craptacular engine and physics implementation, and the difficulty of fitting it all into 64mb of Xbox memory.

DX2 suffered the most from this because it was our first try in the engine and we were under a lot of pressure to ship the game for Christmas. T3 fared better because we had more experience on how to get a game working and didn't have to make quite so many comprimises. Still, if we had stuck with Unreal we could have made both games a lot better, I think.
-------------
On 3 or 4 occasions during the development of DX2 and T3 we hired new programmers specifically to work on tools, but they always got pulled off to work on something else within a few weeks, leaving the tools unsupported. There was too much firefighting needed just to get the game working, which is another result of poor technical management. Everyone knew the editor sucked including the programmers, but in a development environment like we had, that's what you end up with.
.......
for more follow the link back to jtr7's original post


and it was Daikatana that sucked all the finances out of the company and then bombed taking the company with it

handsomepete
19th Nov 2009, 18:03
Big YES to rope arrows, water arrows, fire arrows and moss arrows. Saved my bacon plently of times in the metal age. Also was kick arse to be able to make a rope anywhere in the game as long as an arrow would stick in it.

Targa
7th Jan 2010, 04:45
Hi! Back at ya! And hello to all my old friends and acquaintances, and to those that I've never met, but have been using my "stuff"! :) Yes, I'm still around, and eagerly awaiting T4 (with rope arrows, hopefully!)

-Targa

xDarknessFallsx
7th Jan 2010, 05:21
LOL, I like your "house of Thief stuff," Targa (in your signature) :) Good stuff and some funny captions. I like the potions and wish there were in the game.

Rope arrows better be in T4, for sure, otherwise, I'll just have to pass on the game. Okay, maybe I won't be *that*extreme, but I will definitely be upset! :D

Nate
7th Jan 2010, 05:53
The beauty of rope arrows is how they open up possibilities!

Nate
7th Jan 2010, 06:14
It was the unplanned rope arrow avenues that made Thief such an adventure for me.

Hehe, Jtr7 and I are the only ones still awake!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
7th Jan 2010, 11:57
I adored the extra fun and adventure that rope arrows gave the player. I cannot stress this enough. :p

DEVS: Please, PLEASE bring 'em back in Thief 4.

Pyronox
8th Jan 2010, 17:04
DoW2 and FO3 were a natural evolution and deserve nothing but praise.

Oblivion was great as well, but not as great as Morrowind sadly.

Don't use games that everyone thinks were awesome as examples to what sucked.

Platinumoxicity
8th Jan 2010, 22:33
DoW2 and FO3 were a natural evolution and deserve nothing but praise.

Wrong. FO3 was a good concept applied to bad consolized crap.

Helgeran
23rd Apr 2010, 17:12
For me rope arrows are an immersion breaker since it's silly that an arrow can hold the weight of a man. How about a normal grappling hook you can throw over walls or rooftops?

+ Realistic
+ Doesn't clutter the map

- Since you can pick it up after use (and should to avoid detection) you can run out of it so the resource management part of rope arrows dissappear

And guards who spot it should be able to cut the rope! And you should be able to cut the rope yourself if an enemy can climb the rope!

Rieknor
23rd Apr 2010, 18:12
inmersion breaker? naah.

An arrow can hold a men, an arrow well thight with the wood.

And are more realistic, im sure.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
23rd Apr 2010, 18:43
Helgeran, I merged your new thread into existing discussion. :)

I disagree with you. The rope arrow is NOT an immersion breaker at all and it must return. Rope arrows are fun, fun, FUN! We can use more than one of them to get to obscure places/secrets you wouldn't normally be able to access with just one rope (or one grapple hook even). It takes a keen taffer's eye to spot those woody nooks that you can sink one into and make your way across the rooftops to find rooms to loot.

I already made an oath ages ago. If T4 doesn't bring back the beloved rope arrow then I shall go back to playing fan missions as I currently do. I'm happiest in this realm...

Besides. No grapple hook can replace that beautiful sound of the bow creaking and stretching as you take aim. :p

Yaphy
23rd Apr 2010, 20:54
The rope arrow should be more dynamic. Maybe we should be able to swing with it. Or maybe you could have a rope arrow with one arrow in each end of the rope. You shoot one arrow across a building and the other one you might shoot in the wood infront of you. And ta-da! You have a rope that crosses the roofs. Maybe to walk or climb on.

Vae
23rd Apr 2010, 23:29
True indeed...:thumb:...It encourages the mind to be more creative and non-linear...and ahhhh, the delight of vertical freedom. The rope arrow is not just a piece of equipment, it is quintessential THIEF...

LONG LIVE THE ROPE ARROW....DEMAND YOUR RIGHT FOR VERTICAL FREEDOM.

Hypevosa
23rd Apr 2010, 23:56
attaching rope to an arrow and shooting it does not work as well as movies make it out to work - at all. Not to mention carrying around 30 feet of coiled rope isn't very... fun.

Platinumoxicity
24th Apr 2010, 07:43
Bring back the ol' "6D" adventure promised in TDP!

(both directions along each of the xyz axes)

"6D"? -"6 directions" or "6 dimensions"? :D

6D space has 12 directions.
http://www.cubeupload.com/files/9fc8006d.png

Vae
24th Apr 2010, 08:44
It's called "Six Degrees of Freedom" (6DoF):

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7374/6dof.gif

Six degrees of freedom (6DoF) refers to motion of a rigid body in three-dimensional space, namely the ability to move forward/backward, up/down, left/right (translation in three perpendicular axes) combined with rotation about three perpendicular axes (pitch, yaw, roll). As the movement along each of the three axes is independent of each other and independent of the rotation about any of these axes, the motion indeed has six degrees of freedom.

Platinumoxicity
24th Apr 2010, 18:06
Oh. 6D only reminds me of 6-dimensional space that's all. :D

Ardanna
2nd May 2010, 19:14
I looked at the rope arrows for TDS and I think that I like them more than climbing gloves.

Hypevosa
2nd May 2010, 19:48
http://www.cubeupload.com/files/9fc8006d.png

This would have freaked my friend russell out, who's talked with me about what a 4th dimension would be before. You need to have each dimension perpendicular to all the rest, drawing the 4th dimension isn't terribly feasible in 2 dimensional space.

Taffer17
22nd Jun 2010, 03:06
[QUOTE=DoomyDoomyDoomDoom;1010353] I had a knack for jumping right to my doom. Is this just me? I can hardly ever seem to jump where I mean to on the first attempt.

QUOTE]

I always have trouble in the bonehoard getting to the Horn and back. It always involves saving and loading several times. :mad2:

xDarknessFallsx
22nd Jun 2010, 03:44
It's called "Six Degrees of Freedom" (6DoF):

Six degrees of freedom (6DoF) refers to motion of a rigid body in three-dimensional space, namely the ability to move forward/backward, up/down, left/right (translation in three perpendicular axes) combined with rotation about three perpendicular axes (pitch, yaw, roll). As the movement along each of the three axes is independent of each other and independent of the rotation about any of these axes, the motion indeed has six degrees of freedom.
I'm confused. Are you guys saying Garrett is supposed to fly like a plane through mansions, with gentle pitch, yaw and roll capabilities to smoothly float up staircases and bank to the right and float through a doorway? Translation please :scratch:

xDarknessFallsx
22nd Jun 2010, 03:47
This would have freaked my friend russell out, who's talked with me about what a 4th dimension would be before. You need to have each dimension perpendicular to all the rest, drawing the 4th dimension isn't terribly feasible in 2 dimensional space.
Carl Sagan attempts to explain the 4th dimension here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KT4M7kiSw

xDarknessFallsx
22nd Jun 2010, 04:05
I know not flying, was just saying for exaggerated effect. But seriously, what I do picture is Garrett standing there doing this, pitching forward and around, with his feet anchored in one spot. LOL

http://igadgetgifts.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/michael_jacksons_special_shoe_gadget_lean.bmp

...Or if he's standing straight up, I picture him simply cocking (rolling) his head to the left and right. Thus, I don't understand the benefit.

Can someone explain in layman's non-technical terms how 6D would work, and what the benefits for gameplay would be (giving real-world examples), in non-belittling terms? I may need to rely on Platinumoxicity to break it down via visuals.

:D

Tryst
22nd Jun 2010, 04:37
Can someone explain in layman's non-technical terms how 6D would work, and what the benefits for gameplay would be (giving real-world examples), in non-belittling terms? I may need to rely on Platinumoxicity to break it down via visuals.

:D
Take a 3D program and look at the x,y,z axis. You have two directions of movement along each axis. Therefore 3 Axis = 6 directions of movement. Ergo: 6 degrees of movement. Forward, back, up down, left, right.

xDarknessFallsx
22nd Jun 2010, 05:04
Sorry Tryst, I know that... but can't Garrett already do that? In all games?

I can go forward, back, strafe left, strafe right ... move forward and backward while strafing left, move forward and backward while strafing right ... move left and right while moving forward, move left and right while moving backward ... jump up, climb up, climb down, move left and right while climbing up and down ladders ... lean left and right around corners ... swim in any direction ... crouch and move in any direction ... zoom in, zoom out ... and look in any direction I want while doing any of the above... AND use the birdcall whistle and touch my nose at any time, too :)

The only thing that seems to be missing to me are a sprawled out crawl on the ground (which I want). Anything else that I think can of involving yaw and rolls results in pointless super-human feats like the above pic I posted, or anti-gravity.

I just don't understand what movement or vision possibilities I'm missing out on when jtr7 writes:


Bring back the ol' "6D" adventure promised in TDP!

(both directions along each of the xyz axes)

Vae
22nd Jun 2010, 06:37
:thumb:...Indeed.

LONG LIVE THE ROPE ARROW....DEMAND YOUR RIGHT FOR VERTICAL FREEDOM.

Tryst
22nd Jun 2010, 06:49
Sorry Tryst, I know that... but can't Garrett already do that? In all games?
As jtr pointed out, technically, he can but physically no. To go vertical requires a path and even with the climbing gloves allowing you to climb almost any wall, few actually led to much more than a dead end. IIRC, there were only two actual places you could climb up to anything useful in TDS and only two rooftops in the city you could get onto in total, both being a path to the rooftop hideout that Garrett started from towards the end of the game.

What would be preferable is to remove those restrictions and have a full 3D world with the ability to go anywhere and onto any rooftop.

xDarknessFallsx
23rd Jun 2010, 05:23
Okay, I'm understanding more. I read jtr7's quote as if all games in the series, including TDP were lacking true 6D. As if TDP "promised" 6D (as seen on the box), but didn't really deliver. But now I see the main problem was actually just TDS.

Is that a decent assessment?

PS: I wondered what was up with that Maw map, but now it makes sense. Thanks for the breakdown, jtr7.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
25th Jun 2010, 13:23
I just want the rope (or vine) arrow back, just as it was.... anything else will be a HUGE disappointment (to me).

Jimsterr
28th Feb 2011, 21:45
Hey everyone. Don't you guys think that we should get the arrow rope back in thief 4 ? :P

That is a thing i really missed in thief 3.
I remember how fun it was, to have this in use.

I remember a place in thief 2 i think, where i was on the roof, and looked down into a room, where there was a man, and some nice loot. I took out my bow, and fired a arrow, with a rope attached to it on a joist, and climbed down into the room. I sneaked up behind the man in the room, and knocked him out. After that i took his Money and jewels, and climbed up the rope again, and moved on.

I really miss this feeling of sneaky actions.

What about you guys ? :rolleyes:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Feb 2011, 22:11
^
The majority of taffers here agree with you. :thumb:

Vae
28th Feb 2011, 23:23
Don't worry Jimsterr, there will be rope arrows in T4...mark my words, the devs would have to be complete fools not to put them in.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Mar 2011, 08:21
^
Exactly. :cool:

massimilianogoi
1st Mar 2011, 12:59
No rope arrows, from the latest news, only hooks. And this could be in some fact charming, if it was not for that DAMNED forced third person!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Platinumoxicity
1st Mar 2011, 15:50
Just because the devs haven't implemented every single tool into the game yet doesn't mean that they're not aiming to. TDS was only missing rope arrows because they weren't possible. Games are about enjoyable gameplay. When comparing rope arrows to for example a grappling hook, rope arrows are more player-friendly and easier to program than a grappling hook which is a lot more unreliable and that's use has many more factors than just "If surface == "wood" " It just doesn't make sense to struggle with programming a working grappling hook system when there's an easier alternative already set in the game series.

Yaphy
1st Mar 2011, 21:35
define "working" grappling hook. It could be like Batman Arkham Asylum for all we know.

Vae
1st Mar 2011, 21:42
*shudder*

Platinumoxicity
2nd Mar 2011, 05:24
define "working" grappling hook. It could be like Batman Arkham Asylum for all we know.

You aim where you want to throw it, press and hold attack to throw, and when you think the hook has reached the position you wanted, release attack to tighten the rope. Rope arrow is easier to program and more versatile in gameplay use. Aim, shoot, rope deploys straight down from the point of impact.

BigBoss
2nd Mar 2011, 05:34
*I'm going to elaborate on this point for a bit because I think its really important.

I find it unacceptable that these were removed in TDS for a number of reasons.

-- Rope arrows have become a symbol really. Of freedom, of immersion, of what not to exclude from a Thief game. H4xing rope arrows into TDS would hardly have helped either, because the levels were so tiny and there weren't any rooftops to explore anyway.


Yes that will make thief truly unique.......oh wait, that just rips off batman

Edit: More to the point, you guys honestly think that batman AA's third person view hurt the game?????

Yaphy
2nd Mar 2011, 07:35
Yes, I agree on that. I didn't mean to say that Batman AA was a good way to go. :) I just meant that we don't really know what grapple hook could impact gameplay since there are so many ways to make a grapple hook.

BigBoss
2nd Mar 2011, 08:39
I didn't say it was a ripoff of AA, I said it's a ripoff of Batman.

Tryst
2nd Mar 2011, 14:43
Rope arrows had the same "growing" physics as vine arrows where the rope would grow in length from the arrow to a point just above the floor so going back to vine arrows makes more sense.

The only advantage of a grappling hook is that, as long as the end of the rope stays with Garrett, he would be able to use it to swing across a chasm or from roof to roof or whatever, maybe even use it as a zip line if necessary. I see no other advantage over a rope/vine arrow. However, if the end stays with garrett, the same can be done with a rope/vine arrow with a lot more versatility.

If anything, the grappling hook should be additional to a rope/vine arrow rather than instead of.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Mar 2011, 15:22
With a grappling hook the player could reach ledges that don't have anything to stick rope arrows on. But in places where there is a suitable place for a rope arrow and the player needs to climb straight up into the ceiling, that's when the rope arrow would be useful.

For example there's one annoying area in Soulforge where there's a platform you need to get to, but there isn't anything to stick vine arrows on. You need to climb on top of something, aim very carefully and shoot a vine arrow all the way across the room so that the arrow tip hits right on the edge of the carpet on the platform but the arrow shaft just barely reaches over the edge and deploys the rope down. That's the kind of situation where a grappling hook would be useful.

But a grappling hook is also noisy so it might alert AIs around.


Rope arrows had the same "growing" physics as vine arrows where the rope would grow in length from the arrow to a point just above the floor so going back to vine arrows makes more sense.

Rope arrows and vine arrows both had a rope that always ended just above the floor, but the rope is never infinitely long. Not even on the vine arrow. The maximum length the rope/vine has is about 10m.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Mar 2011, 10:45
I always find it an enjoyable challenge to have to work out where to shoot a rope/vine arrow. It was even better when you had to use several of them to make your way across an area not accessible by any other means.
More of this please... :cool:

Vae
4th Mar 2011, 10:47
You never know Viktoria, you might be holding a grappling hook when T4 comes out.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Mar 2011, 10:54
Speculation continues... :D
In my opinion, a "grappling hook", (as we know it) isn't exactly a stealthy item of equipment (heavy/noisy)... and not even magical. :hmm:

Vae
4th Mar 2011, 10:58
In my opinion, a "grappling hook", (as we know it) isn't exactly a stealthy item of equipment (heavy/noisy)... and not even magical. :hmm:

I agree...to me, the rope arrow is part of the quintessential THIEF experience.



Speculation continues... :D

I knew you liked the speculation...me too, it makes things fun...:D

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Mar 2011, 11:04
I agree...to me, the rope arrow is part of the quintessential THIEF experience.

You should make this your signature. :cool:
Which brings me onto a proposal... an idea that the Taffer in me wishes to "steal". :naughty:

Over on the DX:HR forum, they passed away the years by enjoying some signature fun. The theme changed each month.

So, I thought it would be a good idea to have something similar on this forum so I'll be creating a thread about it soon.

Vae
4th Mar 2011, 11:11
Sounds like it could be fun...:)

I have a thread coming shortly too...it's called...THE CITY INQUIRER - Unofficial News and Speculation...it'll consolidate all the unofficial speculation together in one thread, so taffers won't get confused, and it'll be fun trying to piece things together.

What do you think?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Mar 2011, 11:29
I love the thread name and I love the idea. Go for it. :thumb:

Vae
4th Mar 2011, 20:52
No..."Inquirer", meaning "inquiry"...which uses deductive, inductive, and abductive reasoning in order to ascertain the truth of something, or least surmise a likelihood, without knowing all the relevant facts. It will be about investigating sources, by compiling unofficial information and cross-referencing that info with other unofficial and official sources...that is why I chose "Inquirer" and not "Enquirer"..."Enquirer", would signify a totally different intention, one of purposefully generating false information just for the sake of it.

Zhukov
4th Mar 2011, 20:59
I'm fine with a grappling hook, I love the rope arrow, but the grappling hook would do the same thing with the added option of swinging, a convention seen in games for years now. I don't view the rope arrow as a central element to Thief it's just a thing.

Platinumoxicity
4th Mar 2011, 22:05
The rope on the rope arrow in The Dark Mod can be swinged on. Also it can be shot into wooden objects high up and by grabbing the rope the player could pull it down.

Zhukov
5th Mar 2011, 09:20
Also, lol at Fallout 3 and Oblivion being among the worst sequels of all time. I think I played like 300 hours of Fallout 3, easy.

Zhukov
5th Mar 2011, 09:25
Uh, the rope arrow would swing in a new game. The grappling hook is only how it's attached, the rope is something else and should be made more dynamic by default, anyway. The hook adds nothing but a sense of earthliness, in an unearthly setting. If the grappling hook acts anything like a real one, it will not be fun.

Why won't it be fun? The rope arrow was kinda goofy, a magical arrow that sticks in wood then deploys a rope. Kinda outrageous. Like there is magic in LOTR but that would never fly in that universe... actually now that I think of it there is a magic Elven rope that un-knots when you pull on it. OK, let's just say, I don't think it's a big hit to the series, the exclusion of rope arrows, that is. Plenty of overt magic and stuff to keep you satisfied, I'm sure.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Mar 2011, 09:46
I can't imagine why anyone would want to remove the rope/vine arrow in favour of a grappling hook.
We can already find this tool in PLENTY of other games out there - so many, in fact, that it makes me want to yawn just thinking about it. :hmm:

Continue to implement changes such as this in your mind, and you will no longer have a unique game called "Thief".... :(

Vae
5th Mar 2011, 09:53
Indeed, good lady...indeed.

The Rope Arrow is simply a must, in order to capture that unique feel and freedom of the game.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Mar 2011, 10:00
I see you changed your signature, Vae, and made it pictorial at the same time. Excellent! :thumb:

Vae
5th Mar 2011, 10:04
I thought you'd like that...:D

It seems this message is in need of broadcasting.

theBlackman
6th Mar 2011, 07:06
Quantity has nothing to do with it. Quality of the specific magic has nothing to do with it. Freedom of movement and player control over the environment in unexpected ways not found elsewhere is everything.

The 'ridiculous' Rope arrow gave, gives if you play the older games, freedom of movement and choice options that a Grapnel can't.

As JTR says. Magic is not the issue. Player imagination in the use of 'tools' is.

KoStA
6th Mar 2011, 18:21
Also, lol at Fallout 3 and Oblivion being among the worst sequels of all time. I think I played like 300 hours of Fallout 3, easy.

And how many hours have you spent playing their respective predecessors?
When calling these games "amongst the worst sequels" it is in comparison to the earlier titles e.g Fallout 2 and TES: Morrowind
And if i where to judge between them in regards to content and quality as opposed to graphics, the sequels are severely lacking.

As sequels they are poor, on their own they are quite good.

ToMegaTherion
7th Mar 2011, 09:58
Well you'll find people who say that Fallout 2 is much more rubbish than Fallout 1 (despite its being the same game but better), or that Morrowind is a disgraceful betrayal of Daggerfall (it isn't). And so on.

Platinumoxicity
7th Mar 2011, 15:43
Well you'll find people who say that Fallout 2 is much more rubbish than Fallout 1 (despite its being the same game but better)

Yes. I hate when pretentious a-holes do that. They are appealing to nostalgia by convincing themselves that they're better people just because they played a certain game when it came out. I personally like neither of the first 2 Fallout games. Fallout 2 is slow paced (good), but it's got a taffin' time limit (BAD!). Fallout 2 is the kind of game that you need to play and fail to finish for almost an eternity so that you can memorize the exact sequence of events that allow you to finish the game within the time limit and also get you some experience so that you won't get your arse handed to you in the later stages. Also, the style of the graphics makes it hard to tell what's going on, and the screen area is so small that you can get lost by just standing still. I do admit that Fallout: Tactics is then again too linear, but at least all the stupid flaws of Fallout 2 have been fixed and the interface has been updated. Fallout 3 on the other hand... it's just dumb. Fallout 3 is a long rope that has millions of ants on it. You can get to the end of it by following that one rope with your eyes closed, the ants will bite you on the way, and in the end your hands are numb from all the bites so they don't hurt anymore. But at least you got to the end without having to think at all.

Okay now I seem to have complained about Fallout on a rope arrow thread.

KoStA
7th Mar 2011, 17:32
Well i didn´t want to come out as a prententious a-hole (who would) :)
Might have come out a bit harsher than i intended, sorry.

I didn't mean that you're not entitled to an opinion about a game if you havent played the earlier titles, it's just that it is a bit tricky to judge a game as a sequel if you havent played the predecessors.
I might not be completely unbiased and i certainly get nostalgic, but i have to blame the fact that many of todays games seldom fails in making me cringe.

Love the fallout rant there plat :thumb:

Platinumoxicity
7th Mar 2011, 17:57
Well i didn´t want to come out as a prententious a-hole (who would) :)
Might have come out a bit harsher than i intended, sorry.

No, no that's not what I meant. :) Pretentious a-holes are those people who say (yes they only say that, it's not really their opinion) that Super Mario Bros is a better game than for example Jedi Knight 2 when in actuality objectively there isn't one aspect in Mario that's of better quality than in Jedi Knight 2. They're the people who derive their personal list of favorite games from a global list of most popular games, pretend that it's their own opinion and talk down to anyone who actually has their own opinion that differs from theirs. These people would also be those people who would advocate that Resident Evil 1 is better than the REmake, which is the same game with gameplay improvements, professional voice actors and awesome graphics, in other words, the same game, only better in every respect with no room for argument.

There are game series with better old titles than the new ones, like for example comparing TDS to Thief 2, or Crysis to Far Cry. But the pretentious ones wouldn't base their "opinion" on actually analyzing each game's pros and cons, but they'd rather just think that the older one is better by default, or the more popular one is better by default.

LALALALALA rope arrows... let's see...

KoStA
7th Mar 2011, 19:15
And now for something completely different.


Here's a bold statement
Rope arrows seems to be the right way to go :)

Vae
7th Mar 2011, 20:48
Rope Arrow + Improved mantling = Complete movement satisfaction

Vae
7th Mar 2011, 21:09
Demand your CMS! (Complete Movement Satisfaction)...:D

Vae
7th Mar 2011, 22:05
IRU, brought to you by JTR.

Fizbop
9th Mar 2011, 03:28
The gloves just plain sucked... Even I'll admit that.

xDarknessFallsx
9th Mar 2011, 05:42
--

xDarknessFallsx
9th Mar 2011, 06:25
--

Fizbop
12th Mar 2011, 04:04
The Imfamous Rope glitch ? Was the Vine one better or worse?

Nightwynd
12th Mar 2011, 17:19
I get the one where Garrett shoots upwards constantly. :D

Question:

Which is better, Vine or Rope Arrow?


I myself consider the Rope Arrow better (or cooler), despite its inferiority to Vine Arrows. I also think that Vine Arrows are more plausible, since they are more clearly magical. Still, I like Rope Arrows more.