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1N54N3
21st May 2009, 21:25
The name pretty much says it all. Vote which engine you think would be the best overall tradeoff in each category. You might also post what you voted for and why, to give further input.

Visuals (quality of the game world and models)
Performance (old and new systems)
Shadow Quality (How realistc do the shadows look? Would they work well in the Thief universe?)
Sound
Cost of license fees to EM/Eidos. (The TRU and Unreal 3 engines are already theirs, so they would be the cheapest obviously)
Anything else you think is important.

GmanPro
21st May 2009, 21:28
I said TRU engine. Because its their engine already. And the DX3 team has probably already polished it up nicely for them.

Jilly The Taffer
21st May 2009, 23:46
TRU engine was nice, it kept me happy throughout the whole game.
And the graphics were...wow O_O

huzi73
22nd May 2009, 08:27
Ok,thanks for making the poll,however I dont mean to be a pain in the rear end,if the Batman Arkham Asylum engine were here,Thats where my vote would have went.Anyways,Many things discussed in the forums regarding the tech,gfx etc...Is completely possible on the TR:U engine.(dripping water leaving trails for guards to follow,mud trails,blood trails,dense foilage in Pagan areas etc)

But my vote did go for UE3...(reflex action)

Jables_Kage
22nd May 2009, 08:38
what about the engine they used for crysis? i think its the cryengine!

kin
22nd May 2009, 08:42
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPPxMvUF3jA&feature=related

huzi73
22nd May 2009, 15:45
what about the engine they used for crysis? i think its the cryengine!

Its called the CryEngine 2.But CryEngine 3 is out.While it does currently produce the BEST GFX in the universe,it costs a fortune!(but I wet my pants just thinking of the awesomeness of a CryEngine 3 Pagan forest...)I dont mean to be a nag,but technically speaking (excuse the pun) Doom 3 & Quake 4 both use the same engine (ID's Tech 4 engine)so add those votes as one..

This is why I chose UE3:

http://paulmader.blogspot.com/2009/04/first-screenshots.html

Fraz
22nd May 2009, 16:03
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPPxMvUF3jA&feature=related

it looks so much Thief like ...

but anyway i think it should be TRU engine if not anything better.

GmanPro
22nd May 2009, 20:13
Ok,thanks for making the poll,however I dont mean to be a pain in the rear end,if the Batman Arkham Asylum engine were here,Thats where my vote would have went.Anyways,Many things discussed in the forums regarding the tech,gfx etc...Is completely possible on the TR:U engine.(dripping water leaving trails for guards to follow,mud trails,blood trails,dense foilage in Pagan areas etc)

But my vote did go for UE3...(reflex action)

Batman's engine is UE3.

1N54N3
22nd May 2009, 22:53
Its called the CryEngine 2.But CryEngine 3 is out.While it does currently produce the BEST GFX in the universe,it costs a fortune!(but I wet my pants just thinking of the awesomeness of a CryEngine 3 Pagan forest...)

The main problem being that the CryEngine does cost a lot more... Around 2 Million USD as opposed to around 300k for the U3 engine. Also, not many systems can run the Cryengine with smooth frames. It may look slightly better, but runs way worse. I don't think EM wants to alienate players based on system requirements.


I dont mean to be a nag,but technically speaking (excuse the pun) Doom 3 & Quake 4 both use the same engine (ID's Tech 4 engine)]

You're right, but they are a different generation of the engine with slighly different technologies built for the 2 different games. Doom 3 (which I mainly put in because someone else wanted a vote for it) focused more on shadows. The Quake 4 revision of the engine had a lot of the newer technology like portals and what not.

At any rate, if there is something else I should put on the list, I can.

Also, if you want more proof of why I think they should use the Unreal 3 engine, just look at some of the screenshots of user made maps for UT3. If the community can do this, think what devs can do.

http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=680566 - Pagan Looking Stuff
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=627412 - More Pagan Stuff
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=680267 - Hammerite Looking Stuff
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=629272&highlight=DIABLO
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=607209&highlight=garden
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=681033
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=680624
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=680329
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=665472

Skaruts
23rd May 2009, 00:44
I know little about these engines, except Source, so I didn't vote. As long as they don't even consider using Source engine, everything will be ok. Source is too weak and buggy and they'd have to loose too much time debugging it so then they could adapt it to a thief functionality.
The only advantage it has is that it provides good performances on any fairly decent hardware. No need to go buy a new PC to play a game made in it.
Even though, I definitely wouldn't advise it. But they must know that already.

All I hope is that they don't make Thi4f another of those games that make ppl wanna buy new pcs. I never did that, and never will, and it makes me sick to have all games doing that to ppl.

Tiptoe
23rd May 2009, 08:06
Well, I've been thinking the engine they used for Oblivion would work well. The whole time I was playing Oblivion I couldn't help thinking that with a few tweaks it could be turned into a really good Thief game.

One of the advantages of the Oblivion engine is that it already has a robust modding toolkit, so that side of the game is already taken care of.

Another advantage of the engine is that it allows for both first and third person views! Yes, I know I go on and on about this, but the third person view is vitally important to me, so you'll just have to put up with it :rasp:.

DarthEnder
23rd May 2009, 08:11
Aren't game engines now made up of many different engines that each handle different things?

Like Havok for physics, and Euphoria for character animation etc.

Honestly, as long as the engine can handle rope arrows, I'll be happy with it.

Abelo
23rd May 2009, 08:12
Your choice list is very limited. Besides, Quake 4 engine is Doom3 engine.

Anyway, I think the paramount feature in Thi4f engine should be realistic REAL-TIME lighting (no shadow mapping), and only Doom3's achieves on that, even if it's terribly obsolete. For a 2011/2012 game like Thi4f, a real-time renderable form of global illumination should be a must; so new engine or severely modifying Unreal3.0 engine. Cryengine could be studied too.

dnoeyen
23rd May 2009, 08:54
I think thief just really needs a shadow based engine, like the dark engine when the thief series began.
(I don't mean the dark engine should be used for thief 4)

Espion
23rd May 2009, 09:15
Er, I imagine this is already something they decided on a long time ago... Like when someone said "let's make Thief 4!"

Chosing an engine to use comes down to how easily it can be adapted for the task at hand, how well the dev team know it and, most importantly (for the people at the top), how much it's going to cost. I think it's a given that Eidos will use their inhouse engine as at least on two of those points it's going to come out on top.

As for which engine I'd prefer they use... Well, regardless of how many bells and whistles an engine has it still comes down to how good the coders and artists are. I can garauntee that even if they used the latest version of the Unreal engine if they have crap artists then the game is gonna look like a piece of crap. It'll just look like a very shiny piece of crap.

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying that Eidos has crap artists as I've yet to see the quality of their work.)

Skaruts
23rd May 2009, 10:12
Yes, engine should be the (one of the) first thing(s) to be decided. And I agree that they may use an engine of their own. They built it, they know it, there's no cost to it, I guess, and they'll know what it lacks to be a Thief engine much quicker. It only seems logical to me.

As for the Oblivion engine, I hate it, personally. If I'd use it for a Thief game I'd have to tweek a ton of things, add another ton of things, and change two tons of things. Vague, I know, but I don't think it would be worth it. Besides, it handles character models pretty badly. At least Oblivion's own characters.


All in all, I just hope they don't think about overloading their time on graphics and physics. Only time enough to make the game work as well as it should and to be able to keep final decent recomended requirements.

Not that I have a bad PC, but that's the biggest problem in most games nowadays... sigh :hmm:

huzi73
23rd May 2009, 12:33
You're right, but they are a different generation of the engine with slighly different technologies built for the 2 different games. Doom 3 (which I mainly put in because someone else wanted a vote for it) focused more on shadows. The Quake 4 revision of the engine had a lot of the newer technology like portals and what not.

At any rate, if there is something else I should put on the list, I can.

Also, if you want more proof of why I think they should use the Unreal 3 engine, just look at some of the screenshots of user made maps for UT3. If the community can do this, think what devs can do.

http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=680566 - Pagan Looking Stuff
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=627412 - More Pagan Stuff
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=680267 - Hammerite Looking Stuff
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=629272&highlight=DIABLO
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=607209&highlight=garden
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=681033
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=680624
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=680329
http://forums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=665472

Thanx for the heads up.Batman has to be the most origional lookin unreal engine 3 game to date.technically speaking,wouldnt it cost Eidos nothing to use UE3?Since they're already using it for Batman

ZylonBane
23rd May 2009, 14:33
It's cute the way you guys seem to think this poll will have any influence on reality. It's like watching a bunch of little kids play make-believe. Yeah, the King of Eidos is going to see this and bow to your wisdom. Also you'll all get free unicorns!

Mikkowl
23rd May 2009, 15:28
This is already since long decided and they've been developing on their engine of choice since. Furthermore, we don't know how they are going to modify it or make it look like. In either case, thinking, talking or trying to affect them about it is a waste of time. There are things we can actually influence, and this is not one of those things. So let us spend our efforts on that.

huzi73
23rd May 2009, 16:29
It's cute the way you guys seem to think this poll will have any influence on reality. It's like watching a bunch of little kids play make-believe. Yeah, the King of Eidos is going to see this and bow to your wisdom. Also you'll all get free unicorns!

Dude,you obviously dont get the point,read below:


The name pretty much says it all. Vote which engine you think would be the best overall tradeoff in each category. You might also post what you voted for and why, to give further input.

Visuals (quality of the game world and models)
Performance (old and new systems)
Shadow Quality (How realistc do the shadows look? Would they work well in the Thief universe?)
Sound
Cost of license fees to EM/Eidos. (The TRU engine is already theirs, so it's the cheapest obviously)
Anything else you think is important.

Notice the words:YOU THINK?The point of this poll,is NOT to get EM to use the voters choice of engine,but rather,to see what fans think would best suit the game.(Hell,i'd put a gun in my mouth if they used the DOOM ENGINE).I appreciate you pointing out the fact that EM has already chosen the engine,but there is simply no reason to be sarcastic.So vote,leave a comment and pretend you're intelligent.thnx

ZylonBane
23rd May 2009, 17:28
Notice the words:YOU THINK?The point of this poll,is NOT to get EM to use the voters choice of engine,but rather,to see what fans think would best suit the game
And what do you plan to do with this information?

huzi73
23rd May 2009, 17:59
And what do you plan to do with this information?

Err.I dunno.maybe it inspires someone to make a Thief mod using UE3.Did you vote?

Skaruts
23rd May 2009, 18:04
Is there ever a need to use a discussion's info? Isn't that what forums are about? Discussion?
It doesn't mean ppl will do something about anything in most cases. So what diference does it make to discuss this or that?
Usefull topics are all around and don't get left behind because of apparently useless topics. Not saying this is a useless topic.
Besides, most great ideas are born by stumbling into apparently useless information.

huzi73
23rd May 2009, 18:58
Ehem,anyway,what are the pros/cons of both the UE3 & TR:U engines?Apart from UE3 costing more

1N54N3
23rd May 2009, 20:29
I'd just like to remind everyone who is being rude and sarcastic about this. EM has said they haven't chosen the engine yet..


The engine for Thief 4 has not been announced yet.

But based off Corvin25's request (and other poll thread), the team is considering the Wolfenstein 3D engine (1992) and calling it Dark Engine 2. And it will only run in DOS. ;)

Obviously the second part is sarcasm, but you get the point.

huzi73
23rd May 2009, 22:02
It's cute the way you guys seem to think this poll will have any influence on reality. It's like watching a bunch of little kids play make-believe. Yeah, the King of Eidos is going to see this and bow to your wisdom. Also you'll all get free unicorns!


I'd just like to remind everyone who is being rude and sarcastic about this. EM has said they haven't chosen the engine yet..





There you go...
Pwnd
anyway,can someone please tell me,since Eidos is somehow involved in the Batman game,which uses UE3,does this mean that re-using UE3 for Thi4f will still cost the apparent 300k?Or will it work out cheaper since Eidos is already using it?(which means they had to have already paid something..)Please explain

GmanPro
23rd May 2009, 22:57
On the DX3 boards there was some discussion going about the stealth system. I don't know all the details but supposedly the TRU engine had some issues with shadow based stealth. Or maybe EM was just dead-set on using a purely cover based system. Whatever the case, if they do end up using the TRU engine for Thief 4 and it handles shadow-based stealth beautifully, I will be massively disappointed with the DX3 team.

GmanPro
23rd May 2009, 23:20
I was thinking the same thing. And it makes me sad DX3 will be so ... streamlined. That was the philosophy behind the fall of IW after all.

Corvin25
23rd May 2009, 23:22
This is why I chose UE3:

http://paulmader.blogspot.com/2009/04/first-screenshots.html

This.

ZylonBane
24th May 2009, 02:23
This.
Do you people understand the difference between engines and art assets? The scene in those screenshots could have been recreated verbatim in pretty much any AAA engine from the last five years.

ggaky00
24th May 2009, 06:04
i voted for unreal 3 engine. looks awesome, has great performance and the havok physics.... mmmm mmmm. sweetness at it's best

1N54N3
24th May 2009, 18:05
I don't know what you mean, there is a heavy community modding base for U3 games. I don't see how you can make a statement like that.

huzi73
25th May 2009, 08:07
It bugs me when people say stuff like this. An engine is only obsolete so far as nobody updates it. The code of the D3 engine would never be used 'as is', Eidos Montreal would obviously update the renderer and other parts of the engine to meet their needs. The finished Doom 3 game is outdated, yes, but the engine can be as great as the coder hired to update it makes it.


...and are you pretending to be intelligent? Because this is among the least educated comments I've seen in this thread. No offense, but if you would say this then you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

If EM wasn't using the TRU engine, the doom 3 engine would be the absolute best choice. One of the first things we noticed when we started Dark Mod, is that the doom 3 engine 'felt' like an up to date Dark Engine in so many ways. The D3 engine really feels like an updated dark engine right out of the box. Why? Simple history. The original Thief engine, "The Dark Engine", was inspired by the quake engines...the Doom 3 engine is a successor to the Quake engines. In addition to that, all of the files that control the game in D3 are plain text, easy for modders to manipulate...the scripting system is completely open and D3 engine games almost always come with an SDK for mod development. The D3 engine is cross platform and several strains of the Radiant editor already exist for it, including our own Dark Radiant. The engine scales across lower end and higher end systems quite nicely, and the shader system is open...allowing modders to enhance graphics in many ways. Now, if EM had purchased the rights to the D3 engine...wow, what they could have done with the full source.




I don't know what you mean, there is a heavy community modding base for U3 games. I don't see how you can make a statement like that.


You guys are crazy.Have any of you read previews on the new Wolfenstein game?I read a preview in a local gaming mag and one of their gripes with the upcoming game was that the game simply didnt look as good as other upcoming AAA games.Keep this in mind right now,its 2009,in 4 years time,it will be 2013. D3 was released in 2003.So you'll be asking developers to use a TEN year old engine.Thats about as good as DOOM 3 using the DOOM 2 engine.Just because its moddable,does not justify its use.Make no mistake,I have no problem with the Tech4 engine,and when I first played D3,I thought to myself,this would make a cool engine for a new Thief game.But guess what,that was 6 years ago.What i'm saying is,even though it's a good engine and it's moddable and stuff,just because you guys are using it to make TDM,doesnt mean Thi4f has to use it.I WILL PLAY TDM FOR THE D3 ENGINE!But,I want to play Thi4f, thinking to myself,heck this is a good looking game.(not that D3 wasnt a good looking game but...THAT WAS 6 YEARS AGO)All im saying is,on the graphical side,this game will look like crap in 4 years time(Which is why ID is releasin the Tech5 engine,and Wolfenstein is going to be their last shot at Tech4 )

Thieffanman
25th May 2009, 08:21
Personally, I'm in favor of the Gamebryo engine: Fallout 3 used it, and it was pretty sweet. I think it has possibilities for Thief IV. Plus, it can be supported on either Windows or a console :).

--Thieffanman

huzi73
25th May 2009, 09:50
Personally, I'm in favor of the Gamebryo engine: Fallout 3 used it, and it was pretty sweet. I think it has possibilities for Thief IV. Plus, it can be supported on either Windows or a console :).

--Thieffanman

Yep,no one says they have to make the game as expansive as Oblivion was.They could go for a Quality over Quantity approach like Fallout 3 did.And Fallout 3 did have some of the best gfx for 2008.It would be interesting to see how that version of Thief might turn out

1N54N3
25th May 2009, 18:15
Huzi73, don't group me into the people saying EM should use the Doom3 engine, I never said that. I think it's a horrible idea myself lol.

Subjective Effect
25th May 2009, 18:30
You guys are crazy.Have any of you read previews on the new Wolfenstein game?I read a preview in a local gaming mag and one of their gripes with the upcoming game was that the game simply didnt look as good as other upcoming AAA games.Keep this in mind right now,its 2009,in 4 years time,it will be 2013. D3 was released in 2003.So you'll be asking developers to use a TEN year old engine.
The latest id engine would be a better choice, but that not in the poll is it?

I don't get people selecting the Unreal engine. I don't know how competent the engine coders were for TDS but TDS was messed up, and part of it was the version of the engine they used was not suitable.

huzi73
25th May 2009, 21:22
The latest id engine would be a better choice, but that not in the poll is it?

I don't get people selecting the Unreal engine. I don't know how competent the engine coders were for TDS but TDS was messed up, and part of it was the version of the engine they used was not suitable.

Well,just as they say,hate the playa not the game,in the same light,hate the coder,not the engine.Its not only UE2 that had this problem,many UE3 powered games suffered the same fate,(Turning Point:Fall of liberty)and there was another 2008 shooter something to do with pandoras box.However,UT3 and the Gears of war series proved that UE3 is one hell of an engine.So above all else,it comes down to the dev team(Though I still believe the D3 engine will be lacking graphically in 3 years time)but the Tech5 engine would be awesome.


Huzi73, don't group me into the people saying EM should use the Doom3 engine, I never said that. I think it's a horrible idea myself lol.

Well then,that makes 2 of us. :lol:

Zahr Dalsk
25th May 2009, 23:51
CryENGINE 3. Failing that, Unreal Engine 3.

Let's be blunt about this, though, I'd just as happily take Thief 2 quality graphics and go with that, but the mainstream audience wouldn't :(

ZylonBane
26th May 2009, 05:04
I think it's a horrible idea myself lol.
Call me crazy, but I'd be willing to bet that you did not, in fact, laugh out loud while typing that sentence.

DarthEnder
26th May 2009, 06:17
How incredibly relevant to this conversation that is.

1N54N3
26th May 2009, 08:17
Call me crazy, but I'd be willing to bet that you did not, in fact, laugh out loud while typing that sentence.

Actually I did and still do. When I think of the work required to modify the D3 engine, I laugh at the idea that anyone would suggest it. Sure it's free, but the amount of time EM would have to spend in modifying the engine would mean a lot of money lost in salary wages. It seems far more cost efficient to just license a newer engine.

huzi73
26th May 2009, 08:56
That has very little to do with the Doom 3 Engine and more to do with the developers use of it. They simply didn't go out of their way allocating resources to upgrade the visuals. If they had, it would look just as good as any AAA modern title. The engine is FINE. Doom 3 "THE GAME" on the other hand, is 6 years old, but if any developer decided to use the engine...they could update the engine and it would look just fine. Just because they didn't make Wolfenstein up to snuff doesn't mean a damned thing. You can update any engine.

XREAL - Quake 3 based Engine. Constantly being updated...by modders...now with HDR.

http://xreal-project.net/

This is why I say, an id based engine would be fantastic. They open their sources after a few years, so the community can do stuff like this. A game gets old...an engine can be kept as up to date as the person maintaining it wishes.

In any case. Thief is hardly about flashy visuals.

If this was always the case,dont you think they wold have just used a modified version of the unreal engine(which powered half life),updated it,and made half life 2?or maybe use the origional cryengine for crysis?or th doom 2(Tech2) engine for Doom 3?the thing is,while they can update the engines to do new types of effects and stuff,sometimes,an engine just wont cut it,and it would make a better game to just make/use a newer engine

Subjective Effect
26th May 2009, 10:48
But new versions of engines ARE just modified/updated versions of the old ones. The surely don't start from scratch every single time.

Some engines will be more suited to updating than others, and if you can mod an engine up to the same standard as a brand new engine there would be no reason not to use it.

huzi73
26th May 2009, 12:18
But new versions of engines ARE just modified/updated versions of the old ones. The surely don't start from scratch every single time.

Some engines will be more suited to updating than others, and if you can mod an engine up to the same standard as a brand new engine there would be no reason not to use it.

The Dunia engine (Farcry 2)used what like 2% of the 1st cryengine the rest was rewritten.They basically made a new engine,not just updated the old one.Same goes for cryengine2

Subjective Effect
26th May 2009, 15:25
Word.

Smooogy
26th May 2009, 15:41
I vote for the assassins creed engine. It shows people with enough detail in large numbers and doesn't lag out an average machine. So I guess that would be the modified tomb raider engine, because I think assassins creed was built from that. So its also the modified prince of persia engine. The unreal engine can make everything look its best though.

Skaruts
26th May 2009, 18:09
Indeed. But that goes back to what they were saying, I believe.

If the AC team had made their models as bad as in Oblivion, they'd have problems in that matter. As much problems as the Oblivion team must have had. They made an arena with about 20-30 persons watching the fights (?). That is what we call in my country "having more hunger than stomach".

AC team handled models well enough to have up to a hundred ppl on screen while not effecting fps much. (Not to mention they look 10000 times better than oblivion's characters)

huzi73
27th May 2009, 08:01
Is that percentage an official number?

Yes,if im not mistaken it is.(If I am mistaken the official percentage is definately six or less.)I would have posted the site where I read it,it was in an interview with one of the far cry 2 devs.But I cant seem to recall whether it was in a magazine,or on the web.



In any case, this entire thread is pointless. EM is using the TombRaider Engine and 'updating' it.

READ BELOW


Is there ever a need to use a discussion's info? Isn't that what forums are about? Discussion?
It doesn't mean ppl will do something about anything in most cases. So what diference does it make to discuss this or that?
Usefull topics are all around and don't get left behind because of apparently useless topics. Not saying this is a useless topic.
Besides, most great ideas are born by stumbling into apparently useless information.

If this discussion is as pointless as you say it is,than why are you even reading this right now.

Skaruts
27th May 2009, 14:36
I don't think that influence would have even been the in the original poster's mind. I can't tell it for sure, but I know I wouldn't trust opinions from 300 persons which I can't say wether they are or not qualified to be trusted in such a matter.


I think they gained a lot of that optimization by having a lot of the characters only run very basic AI functions. Group mentality kind of thing. If the AI aren't doing anything, they're not going to eat up CPU. With any AI in a Thief level, they're probably going to be active if they're in sight of the player so you likely couldn't pull that off in a Thief game.

I think you're right about this. Didn't think of it. You can't even interact with almost anyone in AC.

Kyle2k
27th May 2009, 21:38
I've voted for the modyfied Unreal 3 engine, but the truth is...is really DON'T CARE.

The heart of the Thief game is the atmosphere, the mistery and the disturbing imagery...not a brand new 3D engine.

The fact is, I still love the square models and the amazing textures from the first two games. And the mission design from TDP and TMA is still unmatched.

I hate the TDS engine, with the annoying loading zones (ruined the mood), a clumsy Garret's and the small levels. And the story was VERY bad, although the fancy graphics.

Eidos, make me happy: bring back an improved DarkEngine, with a black sky with stars (not blue)!

huzi73
28th May 2009, 07:50
I've voted for the modyfied Unreal 3 engine, but the truth is...is really DON'T CARE.

The heart of the Thief game is the atmosphere, the mistery and the disturbing imagery...not a brand new 3D engine.

The fact is, I still love the square models and the amazing textures from the first two games. And the mission design from TDP and TMA is still unmatched.

I hate the TDS engine, with the annoying loading zones (ruined the mood), a clumsy Garret's and the small levels. And the story was VERY bad, although the fancy graphics.

Eidos, make me happy: bring back an improved DarkEngine, with a black sky with stars (not blue)!

Thank the heavens!Someone who agrees that TDS had a crap story!!!I thought I was the only one!

VicMackey
28th May 2009, 08:25
It doesn't really matter. Unless someone comes out with an engine with a "Make a good Thief IV now" button, I don't think the engine choice will have any appreciable impact on the quality of the game. It's going to be Far Cry development philosophy applied to the Thief franchise (or at least, something named Thief) regardless of the underlying tech.

huzi73
28th May 2009, 08:49
It doesn't really matter. Unless someone comes out with an engine with a "Make a good Thief IV now" button, I don't think the engine choice will have any appreciable impact on the quality of the game. It's going to be Far Cry development philosophy applied to the Thief franchise (or at least, something named Thief) regardless of the underlying tech.

Err...Forgive me for my lack of insight,but what exactly is Far Cry development philosophy???

GmanPro
28th May 2009, 10:45
Maybe he means the development philosophy where they choose one or two interesting concepts and repeat it over 9000 times. The game becomes a chore where the player is expected to derive fun from grinding through the same, endless, repetitive mechanics constantly ... And then wrap it all up in shiny graphics.

Kyle2k
28th May 2009, 13:57
Thank the heavens!Someone who agrees that TDS had a crap story!!!I thought I was the only one!

Indeed, my friend. I think there's a lot of fans that think TDS ruined the Thief basic elements: mystery, atmosphere, mood, strange - almost profane - textures, Bosh/Bruegel-like pictures on the walls, excellent, unmatched level design (again, I'm not talking about fancy graphics here), weird sounds...;)

I remember, for example, the creepy, disquieting sensation I felt when I first hear the deep bass sound triggered when I entered Lord Bafford's basement through the sewers (the very first mission in TDP)...:nut:

huzi73
28th May 2009, 14:07
Indeed, my friend. I think there's a lot of fans that think TDS ruined the Thief basic elements: mystery, atmosphere, mood, strange - almost profane - textures, Bosh/Bruegel-like pictures on the walls, excellent, unmatched level design (again, I'm not talking about fancy graphics here), weird sounds...;)

I remember, for example, the creepy, disquieting sensation I felt when I first hear the deep bass sound triggered when I entered Lord Bafford's basement through the sewers (the very first mission in TDP)...:nut:

Wow,there are SO MANY sounds that still linger in my mind today,imo,TDP had a slightly better audio ''feel'' to it than TMA.But even TDS had some good sound elements.I say hire the same guys who did the audio for the 1st 2 games.Regarding the Farcry philosphy,I havent played FC 2 so I wouldnt really know.I hope you aret talking about FC 1,coz that was a pretty good game

Jilly The Taffer
28th May 2009, 14:56
Wow,there are SO MANY sounds that still linger in my mind today,imo,TDP had a slightly better audio ''feel'' to it than TMA.

Yes!

Remember the chilling scream you hear every now and then in Baffords Manor?

And the giggling in Constantines Mansion?

So.....like nothing else.

Skaruts
28th May 2009, 16:57
Err...Forgive me for my lack of insight,but what exactly is Far Cry development philosophy???

Farcry/ Crysis (and many more) development phylosophy can be short and easy to explain:

"It is hard to sell gameplay and a good story but it is easy to sell very obvious features like a day and night cycle and a huge open terrain." - in enterview with Sjoerd "Hourences" De Jong (http://www.game-artist.net/forums/spotlight-articles/1048-interview-level-design-sjoerd-hourences-de-jong.html), Levels Designer.

I think there's no need to say more.

huzi73
28th May 2009, 17:01
Same person who did audio in the 3rd game. Eric Brosius.

Id be willing to pay willing to pay double for ThiAf IF:
Eric Brosius did the sound (and took special care to take inspiration from TDP,as well as the widows mansion & cradle from TDS)
Garrett is the protagonist
He is voiced by Stephen Russel
Swimmable water
Rope/Vine arrows
TDP/TMA style briefings
Story on par with TDP/TMA
More undead than TMA/TDS
EM are able to recreate that unique uncomfortable/uneasy/get me the hell outta here feeling (present in Cragscleft,Bonehoard,The sword,Cathederal,Lost city,Cradle,Maw,Soulforge...)
And since this is a GFX thread,GFX utilising CryEngine 3 or Tech 5

Jilly The Taffer
29th May 2009, 00:48
Id be willing to pay willing to pay double for ThiAf IF:
Eric Brosius did the sound (and took special care to take inspiration from TDP,as well as the widows mansion & cradle from TDS)
Garrett is the protagonist
He is voiced by Stephen Russel
Swimmable water
Rope/Vine arrows
TDP/TMA style briefings
Story on par with TDP/TMA
More undead than TMA/TDS
EM are able to recreate that unique uncomfortable/uneasy/get me the hell outta here feeling (present in Cragscleft,Bonehoard,The sword,Cathederal,Lost city,Cradle,Maw,Soulforge...)
And since this is a GFX thread,GFX utilising CryEngine 3 or Tech 5

Yes yes yes! All of them. With these, EM cannot go wrong :D

Skaruts
30th May 2009, 05:54
Gameplay is what matters most in a Thief game. If having a stable, playable, Thief game means I have to play with less than the latest graphics...that's just fine. Thief games need more resources for their AI, sound and general systems.

+10

(I just hope they don't get too ambicious on that matter, like all the rest)

frank jaeger
31st May 2009, 16:25
Ive got to be honest....i feel a new engine should be made for thief...unreal a definite no no.
I know how expensive and time consuming it would be....but we all want a perfect thief game...without memories of lara croft or rocket launchers cropping into our minds everytime we go round a corner.
If its a very, very, very, very modified tru engine, it might suffice.......

huzi73
31st May 2009, 21:39
Im actually not surprised at all at the current poll results.My biggest gripe with the TRU engine is that no one knows for sure how dynamic/adaptable it is.It hasnt been utilised in a different style compared to Tomb raider (yet),UE3 on the other hand,has been modded and taken apart and used to create many many different types of games.It seems to be the most adaptable engine in the world right now.or am i mistaken

Skaruts
1st Jun 2009, 06:17
If I'm not mistaken, the only BIG diference between tomb raider and thief, is the shadows. Unreal on the other hand has all the diferences. I believe TRU would be closer to thief as is. But anyway, as been said, any engine can make any type of game.

frank jaeger, don't worry man. Thief 3 was made from Unreal engine and there were no leftovers from deck16][, right?:p
Unless thief4 story would happen to go through some tomb caves, Tomb Raider leftovers just would not be there.

K^2
1st Jun 2009, 09:27
I said TRU engine. Because its their engine already. And the DX3 team has probably already polished it up nicely for them.
Have you SEEN the shadows in TRU? This might cut it for the DX3, but Thief needs something much better.

I suppose, EM can go ahead and modify the CD engine to run volume shadows, but that's a serious change to the rendering system's flow. I'd rather see them license an engine. Unreal or Tech are probably the better choices. Source will suffer the same issue with shadows.

Unreal on the other hand has all the diferences.
Such as? Keep in mind that player movement is one of the easiest things to mod.

huzi73
1st Jun 2009, 13:26
If I'm not mistaken, the only BIG diference between tomb raider and thief, is the shadows. Unreal on the other hand has all the diferences. I believe TRU would be closer to thief as is. And as been said, any engine can make any type of game.



Yes,but since it hasnt yet been put to the test of making a game(DX3 isnt out yet...)we dont know how dynamic or moddable it is,whereas,Unreal has a reputation of being one of the most moddable engines around.I mean,just look at the amount of games released utilising UE3!If it was a crap engine,I dont think it use would be this widespread.And many of the newer UE3 games have completely different playstyles compared to the general cookie cutter fps genre(Damnation,That other "vertical" shooter,Bioshock,etc )

esme
11th Jun 2009, 12:58
I admit I don't know enough about the relative merits of each engine, so I feel unqualified to vote

however whichever engine they choose they will probably have to add code to incorporate all the features Thief needs

when they do this they should not remove any of the engines other features as they did in TDS unless there is a conflict with the added Thief features

gpagonewest
11th Jun 2009, 15:52
I haven't played Tomb Raider so I can say what that is like, it would have to be Unreal 3.

No real reason other than I have played a few U3 engine games and I like how it looks and feels. At the end of the day I am not sure it matters a huge amount. I am sure a good development team could successfully use any of those.

Pyronox
11th Jun 2009, 17:22
TRU is being upgraded for DX3 anyway, so it could be good. However, Unreal 3 is my engine of choice. (On a side note Dunia>Cryengine)

Platinumoxicity
11th Jun 2009, 18:09
Does "modified" engine mean "good modifications" that it's got additional features compared to the original, OR "bad modifications" like TDS, where they took out water support and rope arrow support just because they were arseholes?

Browser
13th Jun 2009, 01:56
As the end user I don't care, why would I, as long as (1st) the performance is good, (2nd) visuals are decent, it does not have to be amazing, it's just a bonus and (3rd) Thief needs full surround sound support. Platform and OS independent would also be nice and I pray it doesn't suffer from "consolitis".

Ragnalin The Thief
15th Jun 2009, 08:18
Probably Unreal 3 or Gamebryo (Oblivion)
but don't forget Unreal 4 is on it's way

huzi73
15th Jun 2009, 10:23
Probably Unreal 3 or Gamebryo (Oblivion)
but don't forget Unreal 4 is on it's way

True, but UE4 is scheduled to target "NEXT GEN CONSOLES". That would mean around 2012 or so. While its possible Thief 4 will only be released around then, no one knows how soon before that UE4 will be available. IF going for the latest shiniest engine is what EM are after, then probably ID's Tech5 would be the only logical choice...

fayfuya
15th Jun 2009, 19:00
Well, i want it to be or at Source engine or Unreal 3 engine, it's fine for me.

Platinumoxicity
15th Jun 2009, 19:46
God that myth needs to DIE DIE DIE!:mad2::mad2::mad2:
:

Man, I swear I saw an article about that somewhere and there clearly read that they took water away from the Unreal2 engine and did something with the physics to make sure that modders couldn't show them that rope arrows and water are possible to make in the engine, since they did say that "The engine doesn't support rope arrows". I don't know did they mention water then, though.

:confused:

Platinumoxicity
15th Jun 2009, 19:59
That had nothing to do with Ion Storm's intent. If that's what you meant, I apologize. The devs spent too much time trying to get water and rope arrows IN because the software they were given didn't have it--to there genuine surprise and frustration--and it wasn't working, so the missions and areas of city sections had to be redesigned, they had to make the gloves and create areas to use them, and a lot of time was lost, and their morale was eroded. The devs told us when it happened, how they tried, but the deadline still needed to be met, and then they tried to get us excited about the gloves.

Oh. Well then...
Unreal technologies say this about U2 engine: -Fluid surfaces support dynamic water simulation, with ambient ripples, targeted oscillations (for footsteps, explosions, or other disturbances), clamping for realistic wave boundaries, and surface vertex alpha blending for texture effects.

Dynamic water? That's pretty ambitious eh? I guess they meant water with animated waves.

huzi73
17th Jun 2009, 13:18
That had nothing to do with Ion Storm's intent. If that's what you meant, I apologize. The devs spent too much time trying to get water and rope arrows IN because the software they were given didn't have it--to there genuine surprise and frustration--and it wasn't working, so the missions and areas of city sections had to be redesigned, they had to make the gloves and create areas to use them, and a lot of time was lost, and their morale was eroded. The devs told us when it happened, how they tried, but the deadline still needed to be met, and then they tried to get us excited about the gloves.

dude, dont say this, you're actually making me feel sorry for ion storm....:hmm:

Skaruts
17th Jun 2009, 18:19
That's the main problem to mainstream games' quality and worth: Deadlines.

BrendaEM
18th Jun 2009, 13:59
From what I have seen, the Unreal engine is difficult to maintain and patch. To replace the game textures in Thief DS, the textures has to be inserted byte, by byte. In the Id family games, textures and models can be replaced by just dropping an .zip file of those things affected, and they are updated.

K^2
18th Jun 2009, 14:12
Resource storage is hardly a part of the engine.Any half-descent multi-platform engine will have a File I/O class, which can be quickly modified to check contents of particular directories, zip files, or what have you. Choosing one engine over the other based on that is like choosing the engine based on the game that had a better HUD. This is not something you carry across. It's something you get your programmers to modify to work best with what you are doing.

Belboz
18th Jun 2009, 15:02
Why the unreal3 engine, it was unreal3 code that made thief 3 such a broken game, we know that rope arrows work in source and they dont work very well in unreal3, while rope arrows would work in the tombraider engine, it was also limitations in the unreal code that made the levels in thief 3 so small, do you really want them to make big levels but restrict them to using an engine that cant really do all that.

K^2
18th Jun 2009, 15:51
It was Unreal 2, and Ion Storm had a horrible programming team. Their coders should not have been allowed to even look at keyboards, much less touch them. There were no limitations in the TDS engine that weren't there because of poor programming on Ion Storm's part.

Unreal 3 engine can handle everything that a Thief game could possibly need. It wouldn't be my first pick, but EM can do much worse, and they'll probably will. I have a bad feeling that Thiaf will run on Crystal Dynamics, just like Deus Ex 3. No idea what EM is planning to do about the shadows if that's the case.

jermi
18th Jun 2009, 18:00
The size of the XBOX memory was too small back then. It's not a problem now.On the 360, everything must fit into half a gigabyte, while on a current mid-range PC the graphics RAM alone is double that. It is a problem now, and it's a bigger problem with each passing month.

K^2
18th Jun 2009, 21:33
On the 360, everything must fit into half a gigabyte, while on a current mid-range PC the graphics RAM alone is double that. It is a problem now, and it's a bigger problem with each passing month.
On a modern machine, OS alone eats up 1GB of RAM and a good chunk of video memory. This isn't a problem with 360, because nearly everything on the UI side of the OS is loaded out when the game is running. Most of the 512MB is going to be used for graphics, and you need a lot less of actual RAM for running a game than you might think, as long as you are using memory carefully. Unreal 3 is designed to run just fine on 360, and it does.

Yeah, it is a limitation, still, but it is nowhere near as strict as original XBox' 64MB were.And this is much closer to what some people are running now. Only top-end machines will have close to 1GB of video RAM. Most mid to high range machines run on 512MB or less. Plenty of modern games can be run on 256MB of video RAM and 256MB of system RAM left over after OS takes its share.

huzi73
19th Jun 2009, 10:01
Like K^2 said, it was the hacked editing tools, not the engine. Please update your information and help stop the persistence of this MYTH.

The engine didn't make the levels small! The size of the XBOX memory was too small back then. It's not a problem now.

Your misinformation has been incorrect for over 5 years, now, and the correct information has been given since then, too--starting with the devs giving us the news. The very first thing we heard from the devs were the facts, and it was immediately twisted and remains twisted.

:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

Correct me if im wrong, but if im not mistaken, Unreal championship/tournament 1-2 was on the origional xbox, and it featured huge levels. Plus it as using the same engine that TDS used. So, if thats the case, the levels werent small/bad because of the xbox, nor was it because of the engine. It was purely because of the devs being stupid.

Platinumoxicity
19th Jun 2009, 10:08
Why didn't they just make "Dark engine 2" :(

esme
19th Jun 2009, 10:37
well going off the dark mod the doom engine can handle Thief pretty well, it's multiplatform, cheap and I'm sure the dark mod guys would be approachable for the extra code

jermi
19th Jun 2009, 15:37
you need a lot less of actual RAM for running a game than you might think, as long as you are using memory carefully. Unreal 3 is designed to run just fine on 360, and it does.Circular logic.

jay pettitt
19th Jun 2009, 15:44
Engine allegiance is a bit like prefering Reebok or Nike sneakers, right?

jtr7
19th Jun 2009, 19:32
....................

@Wuffi
19th Jun 2009, 20:14
My favorated engine is the upcoming CryEngine 3. You can see this engine as a lite-version of the CryEngine 2, because it is a engine not only for PC but also for upcoming consoles. And you know... it looks very great ^^

K^2
19th Jun 2009, 22:25
Circular logic.
No, it's not. Primarily, because I'm not using inference in that statement at all.

huzi73
22nd Jun 2009, 14:30
Engine allegiance is a bit like prefering Reebok or Nike sneakers, right?

Or rather adidas vs nike.

(Here in South Africa, Reebok gets totally pwned by Nike/Puma/Adidas, in terms of style,looks,comfort,quality etc )

And im speaking as the managing director of a chain of clothing stores.


Anyway Cryengine 3 will cost EM a fortune!!!

Hecateus
3rd Sep 2009, 02:49
I continue to be in favor of OnLive support for Thief 4. As such I see the choice of engine to not be a hardware problem. Rather a usability problem. Which engine is/might be easier to use for Thief FM makers? (and might be available to do Editor/FM making via OnLive)

Davehall380
3rd Sep 2009, 11:29
This forum always seems to kick off

Secondary
3rd Sep 2009, 22:21
My favorated engine is the upcoming CryEngine 3. You can see this engine as a lite-version of the CryEngine 2, because it is a engine not only for PC but also for upcoming consoles. And you know... it looks very great ^^

i pray for PC palyers if its made with Cryengine. even if they make that engine more manageable its still a monster to handle on high settings (and Thief deserves the best!)

Cryengine is graphically superb and features excellent physicis solutions, but will iit run as smooth as the Unrealgine has proven it can?

huzi73
11th Sep 2009, 21:22
i pray for PC palyers if its made with Cryengine. even if they make that engine more manageable its still a monster to handle on high settings (and Thief deserves the best!)

Cryengine is graphically superb and features excellent physicis solutions, but will iit run as smooth as the Unrealgine has proven it can?

I pray for the devs if they use cryEngine 3! CE2 costs like 2 million USD to license! How about the engine from the Riddik game? That did shadows and lighting superbly! Hey! And why not,use Vin Diesel's likeness for Garret? Lmfao!

Ragnalin The Thief
17th Oct 2009, 00:35
I think I pick the CryEngine it has full global illumination which is perfect for thief along with amazing graphics and water.

esme
19th Oct 2009, 11:40
The Dark Mod is now available for use with Doom3, which is going open source :whistle:

after all we want a game not a movie, don't we ? :D

huzi73
19th Oct 2009, 11:44
Wouldnt it be safe to assume that EM already has access to UE3? I mean thy've already published Batman Arkham, which uses UE3...

Namdrol
19th Oct 2009, 12:26
Wouldnt it be safe to assume that EM already has access to UE3? I mean thy've already published Batman Arkham, which uses UE3...

Rocksteady Studios developed Batman Arkham.
Eidos Interactive (read Square Enix) published it.
Eidos Montreal is a developer not a publisher.
A publisher and a developer are very different beasts.

Read this interview.
http://www.develop-online.net/features/107/QA-Stephane-DAstous-Eidos-Montre

Check this

StephaneDAstous
...We chose the Crystal engine because we plan to help develop this engine more and then share it back with the rest of the company, the other Eidos studios. Having that technology from the start gives us a great advantage and foundation for our coders - there are no doubts about the approach, and we have few uncertainties. We just want to all work together on improving the same technology...

huzi73
19th Oct 2009, 13:47
Rocksteady Studios developed Batman Arkham.
Eidos Interactive (read Square Enix) published it.
Eidos Montreal is a developer not a publisher.
A publisher and a developer are very different beasts.

Read this interview.
http://www.develop-online.net/features/107/QA-Stephane-DAstous-Eidos-Montre

Check this

Yes, I fully understand what you're saying, but what im trying to say, is:

Is an engine licensed to a publisher, or a developer, or both?

Does Rocksteady as a dev have the right to use UE3 in future games? Or was it only for BM:AA?

Because Eidos published the game, do they have anything to do with UE3?

The reason im asking all of the above, is because the same applies to the TR:U engine, Eidos was the publisher, and CD was the dev.

(I hope im not sounding too difficult...:confused:)

Namdrol
19th Oct 2009, 21:25
Eidos Montreal is not a publisher, it is a development studio.
Square Enix is the publisher (say Eidos Interactive all you like but the latest corporate structure seems to tell a different story)
A developer is not a publisher, a publisher is not a developer
As to the rest, not being a knob but I think google may help.

huzi73
20th Oct 2009, 11:01
Eidos Montreal is not a publisher, it is a development studio.
Square Enix is the publisher (say Eidos Interactive all you like but the latest corporate structure seems to tell a different story)
A developer is not a publisher, a publisher is not a developer
As to the rest, not being a knob but I think google may help.

so Eidos is not a publisher, yet they published BM:AA?:hmm:

Theres no need to be sarcastic, you try to correct me(i have no problem with that), and then totally contradict your own previous statement. If you want to point something out, make sure you can back it up.



A developer is not a publisher, a publisher is not a developer


Theres no need to state the obvious, I didnt need such a daft explanation, all I wanted to know was:

Is an engine licensed to a publisher, or a developer, or both?

Does Rocksteady as a dev have the right to use UE3 in future games? Or was it only for BM:AA?

Because Eidos published the game, do they have any rights over UE3?

The reason im asking all of the above, is because the same applies to the TR:U engine, Eidos was the publisher, and CD was the dev.

If you couldnt give me an answer, then why post a reply in the first place.

kin
20th Oct 2009, 11:11
I prefer the engine that has no cheats. No clip can be a bad temptation sometimes;)

Namdrol
20th Oct 2009, 17:42
Huzi. I am sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic, it was more terse than anything because you have been ignoring what I've said.
Square Enix Holdings owns Square Enix Europe, which has amalgamated Eidos Interactive, which it is rumoured will not exist even in name (which is more or less all it is now) before too long.
(In fact the console versions of BatAA are being published in the far east by Square Enix co.)

Square Enix Europe owns partially or fully, 7 development studios, including Eidos Montreal, Rock Steady and Crystal Dynamics.
I can find no actual information on the relationship between these studios except in an interview by Phil Rogers saying they are to have, "good exchange and great competition" !?(go figure).
But I would assume they they are separate companies within a corporate structure buying, selling and hiring expertise and goods and services between them.
(I'm not going into tax, stocks, assets and liabilities etc here ffs)

So I have not contradicted myself.

The UE is owned by Epic, a private company, and I expect the development studios must pay for each game it is used for, but Square Enix has licensed the Unreal engine for a number of games so maybe they've got a trade discount ;)

Now if you had followed the link in one of my previous posts and read the interview, you would see the answer to your question about the Tomb Raider engine.
So I had already given you one of the answers.

Before getting upset, read what I've written and linked, think about it, do some research of your own and don't get annoyed with me because you haven't.

glyph07
20th Oct 2009, 19:26
:scratch: U know what? I thought I had a clear idea before reading this thread...now I'm not sure what engine to vote for...CryEngine looks awesome, but do we really need this for a game like Thief?!


The Dark Mod is now available for use with Doom3, which is going open source :whistle: after all we want a game not a movie, don't we ? :D

Dunno, I think I'm gonna go for the open sourced Dark Mod. I see it's the least favorite in the forum for now, and I'd love to know y! Can anyone offer me a good and preferably simple explanation? Cheers! :thumb:

Namdrol
20th Oct 2009, 22:50
And to answer the op, I would have to say the Crystal Dynamics Tomb Raider engine.
Because DX is using it, so there will be a large in house knowledge base, saving both time and money.

glyph07
21st Oct 2009, 04:11
Because a lot of people don't know the difference between an engine and a game...so they see the words "Doom 3 Engine" and think the game will look like Doom 3...which is ridiculous. Look at what our mod team has done with only the partial code released for the Doom 3 engine. It's about art design, models, assets, lighting...all of these things. There are certainly things about different engines that determine their usability out of the box, but any engine could be modified to work as a Thief engine...but you have to start with something that is closest to what you need to eliminate tons of work. The Cry Engine is the furthest of the bunch, UE3 and the D3, Q4 engines would be among the best to work with...although my personal preference would be the D3/Q4 idtech4 engine since it's so easily modifiable.

Thanks, I'll get down deep the issue! :thumb:

ZylonBane
21st Oct 2009, 05:25
Thanks, I'll get down deep the issue! :thumb:
Don't forget to main screen turn on, and launch all zig.

huzi73
21st Oct 2009, 10:19
Huzi. I am sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic, it was more terse than anything because you have been ignoring what I've said.
Square Enix Holdings owns Square Enix Europe, which has amalgamated Eidos Interactive, which it is rumoured will not exist even in name (which is more or less all it is now) before too long.
(In fact the console versions of BatAA are being published in the far east by Square Enix co.)

Square Enix Europe owns partially or fully, 7 development studios, including Eidos Montreal, Rock Steady and Crystal Dynamics.
I can find no actual information on the relationship between these studios except in an interview by Phil Rogers saying they are to have, "good exchange and great competition" !?(go figure).
But I would assume they they are separate companies within a corporate structure buying, selling and hiring expertise and goods and services between them.
(I'm not going into tax, stocks, assets and liabilities etc here ffs)

So I have not contradicted myself.

The UE is owned by Epic, a private company, and I expect the development studios must pay for each game it is used for, but Square Enix has licensed the Unreal engine for a number of games so maybe they've got a trade discount ;)

Now if you had followed the link in one of my previous posts and read the interview, you would see the answer to your question about the Tomb Raider engine.
So I had already given you one of the answers.

Before getting upset, read what I've written and linked, think about it, do some research of your own and don't get annoyed with me because you haven't.

Thank you, no hard feelings, I get what you're saying, EM is NOT Eidos Interactive. The formers a newly formed dev studio which hasnt released a game yet (i think), but working on DX3 and Thief 4. The latter is a publisher, which has been gobbled up by SquarEnix.

Ok, ok sorry I apologise for totally mucking up in my interperatation and misreading your previous posts.:flowers: peace

Namdrol
21st Oct 2009, 11:10
Sweet.
:thumb:

13LACK13ISHOP
27th Oct 2009, 01:49
If only I could vote against the unreal tournament 3 engine. I think it looks horrible and it does not work properly. Sometimes the detail on the map does not appear after several seconds and I never liked it that much anyway. As for cry engine it is not very efficient because it takes so much god damm power to run it on max settings which by the way I only think it only looks good on and yes I have crysis and I have played it on medium and high settings(changed to medium because it was to slow) and it still did not look no where near as good as other games and in fact I say it looks poor on medium settings. Maybe on max or high but honestly who here can play crysis on max or high ? The two prettiest engines I have ever seen are the metal gear solid 4 engine and the killzone 2 engine but shame they are not for PC. Shame indeed.:(

I don't think that a heavily modified Doom 3 engine wouldnt be that bad. Some guys made a Theif mod for doom 3 and it looked pretty good. I think it would suit Theif 4. I think it would work.

xDarknessFallsx
10th Mar 2011, 03:31
--

Skaruts
10th Mar 2011, 14:11
To be honest, I couldn't care less...

I just want the game to be fun enough to justify the price. Dx11 or not, makes no diference to me. If the game looks bad, it will not look better with Dx11, and if the game isn't fun, it won't be funnier with Dx11.

I don't buy games just to go sight-seeing...

And btw,

"So how long will you need to wait before you see awesome visuals as shown in the trailer (below)? Perhaps not long at all. "
Sometimes I just hate the media... Well, I've been seeing that for long enough. Trailers and FMVs are cool but they don't show me what the game has got. A trailer can easily be more in depth than a game. What I wanted to be seeing already is major improvements in game mechanics, storytelling, and gameplay...

Platinumoxicity
10th Mar 2011, 15:29
I would advise against using UT3 engine too. We had another game development course in school and we decided to use UDK to make a 1st person horror adventure game. It was supposed to be very dark, with very few lights, and every light would be dynamic. 50% of our development time went to trying to get something as simple as a flashlight working, and it didn't work properly, and in the end it broke completely. Other dynamic lights like ceiling lamps... they never worked. Specular reflections bleed through walls and there are no shadows. And by no shadows I mean that no wall is able to contain light. If there's a dynamic light in a room, it lights up the room next door too, because the light just passes through the wall in between. We never got around to having any kind of working dynamic lights in the demo.

So UT3 can't possibly be the engine for a Thief game. All the lights in TDS were dynamic, amirite? If UT3 really can't handle those, then it's out of the question.

Fizbop
10th Mar 2011, 15:33
Honestly I wouldn't use any of these engines.

Jerion
10th Mar 2011, 16:13
Why not? I could understand id Tech 4 (behind Doom 3 and Quake 4) and Source- those are aging engines. But UE3 is reasonable (when it works :P), and EM has programmers with recent first-hand experience using TR:U engine. I'm not suggesting anything here, just curious.

xDarknessFallsx
10th Mar 2011, 16:34
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Fizbop
10th Mar 2011, 16:38
Why not? I could understand id Tech 4 (behind Doom 3 and Quake 4) and Source- those are aging engines. But UE3 is reasonable (when it works :P), and EM has programmers with recent first-hand experience using TR:U engine. I'm not suggesting anything here, just curious.

I think the engines wouldn't work out. I've worked with Unreal 3 it's limited to what you can and can't do. Not that it's not a good engine. I'm sure they could make implements to it. If they revamped the engine entirely, I could see it working so I guess that Unreal would be my choice if they revamped the engine.

I loved how they did Arkham Asylum.

Platinumoxicity
10th Mar 2011, 16:47
Based on the demos I've seen of U3 engine, it looks good... dynamic lighting and shadows, etc. I'm sorry to hear about the issues, Platinumoxicity. I assume you're using occlusion and whatever else to prevent the leaking between rooms. The things you mention sound like basic things any modern day engine should be capable of relatively easily... so that's odd. I'm not a level designer, but there must be a way...? :P

It's not just that, but the basic things that for example Deadly Shadows is entirely based on, dynamic shadows, they're all non-functional. Dynamic lighting is useless if no light ray can be stopped with any kind of solid object.

Skaruts
10th Mar 2011, 17:20
I would advise against using UT3 engine too. We had another game development course in school and we decided to use UDK to make a 1st person horror adventure game. It was supposed to be very dark, with very few lights, and every light would be dynamic. 50% of our development time went to trying to get something as simple as a flashlight working, and it didn't work properly, and in the end it broke completely. Other dynamic lights like ceiling lamps... they never worked. Specular reflections bleed through walls and there are no shadows. And by no shadows I mean that no wall is able to contain light. If there's a dynamic light in a room, it lights up the room next door too, because the light just passes through the wall in between. We never got around to having any kind of working dynamic lights in the demo.

So UT3 can't possibly be the engine for a Thief game. All the lights in TDS were dynamic, amirite? If UT3 really can't handle those, then it's out of the question.

I think those dynamic lighting problems must be common in any BSP geometry based engines, since it happens just the same in Source engine from Valve, pretty much just as you described, except the flashlight thing. Not sure if this is true, tho, I'm just guessing. Models don't block light, and BSP geometry is doesn't block dynamic lights. And BSP geometry in UT engine is scarce.

But still, Thief 3 was made using UT engine 2, which should be even worse than 3. So I think anything should be possible as long as the dev team knows how. And the advanced "know how's" is something that should be on EM's belt (or any other big company).

huzi73
25th Apr 2012, 12:59
It's cute the way you guys seem to think this poll will have any influence on reality. It's like watching a bunch of little kids play make-believe. Yeah, the King of Eidos is going to see this and bow to your wisdom. Also you'll all get free unicorns!

:mad2::mad2::mad2::lol::lol::lol:

3 years later, we have confirmation that EM has heard us :D

No unicorns yet...

Maguwave
26th Apr 2012, 00:21
They should use the REDengine which powerd The Witcher 2. The developers built the engine to be a level artis friendly engine and a multi platform one.

Nicacin
26th Apr 2012, 23:50
ALL of those engine are very old...

why not cryengine or frostbite ???

Yaphy
27th Apr 2012, 08:05
What? I didn't know that different companies where allowed to use each other's engine. Cryengine belongs to Crytech and Frostbite belongs to Dice, EA. I'm really not keeping up with the engine updates but when is Unreal Engine 4 available?