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View Full Version : LOOT & Goods Purchases - Where does Garret spend his money?



Skaruts
21st May 2009, 05:00
I was thinking:

In all thief series, the money you make is spent in tools and gadgets to suit your needs to the next mission. If you get any extra money you just keep it.

What if Garret could spend that money in something usefull or something pleasant?
I don't mean going to a brothel or getting some vacations in Hawai, what I mean is something more like:

what if Garret could buy a stronger bow, a better dagger, a short-sword cuz he had none, or even a diferent hood?
And what if he could hire some kids as his informers, or pay other thieves to aid him in some way, or bribe a guard for corruption acts or and inn keeper for info exchange, or even buy a new apartment from a corrupt guy who would sell it to him?

Some of my ideas may seem a little out from thief world, but if well thought and well implemented they would certainly pay off on making sidequests (if there's any) and give some use to extra coins...

MasterTaffer
21st May 2009, 05:22
Rent on his apartment.
Restocking equipment.
Food.
Information for heists.

WVI
21st May 2009, 06:49
Pretty much it. Garrett's always got excuses to steal, but I think he loves it. To me, he's caught in a cycle that he thrives on.

Thieffanman
21st May 2009, 07:02
what if Garret could buy a stronger bow, a better dagger, a short-sword cuz he had none, or even a diferent hood?

I touched on something like that in the 'Weapons' thread: Garrett could start out with low-grade lockpicks that break and need replacing, eventually causing the player to save up for a set of well-made picks that they only need to buy once. Possibly the same for weapons: Garrett starts with poorly-made, low-damage ones, then maybe work his way up to better-made/ different weapons.


And what if he could hire some kids as his informers, or pay other thieves to aid him in some way, or bribe a guard for corruption acts or and inn keeper for info exchange, or even buy a new apartment from a corrupt guy who would sell it to him?

Being able to buy hints/ tips? I like that. Being able to change apts? I like that even better :). Maybe he can upgrade to one with more traps (to guard against break-ins, if such a hazard were possible in the game), and places to stash loot and/or goods versus a limited number of items on your person.


Some of my ideas may seem a little out from thief world, but if well thought and well implemented they would certainly pay off on making sidequests (if there's any) and give some use to extra coins...

It's brainstorming like this that keeps new ideas coming; those new ideas help make games like "Thief" better. I like these ideas.

--Thieffanman

Nate
21st May 2009, 07:02
Well, in Thief DS, Garrett ended the game with enough $ left over to retire comfortably (unless the player was wasteful)

Yaphy
21st May 2009, 09:37
I actually thought about the rent of Garrets home all the time. Isnt one of the main reasons he is a thief is because he need money to live? I always felt sorry for the broke landlord, he was allways blackmailed and then i go and steal everything in his apartment and the blackmail money. Poor guy. :(

Skaruts
21st May 2009, 17:51
I had these ideas when I was thinking that in all the thief games there's some surrounding characters and events happening and all, but it's all too vague or superficial. Taking the example of the landlord and his blackmail "friend", it kinda creates the illusion that there's ppl in garrets life. the friendly guard (corrupt for sure) in the building is another one.

But this is all too superficial, you never get to rly interact with the landlord (or even see him), the guard never realises that it was you that blackjacked him last night (and the night before) and in the streets it's kind of the same thing. The world seems empty. It's night, everyone's asleep, I know, but there could be some more to it.

That's when the other thieves and kids (or whatever) to hire came to my mind..

MasterTaffer
21st May 2009, 17:56
I actually thought about the rent of Garrets home all the time. Isnt one of the main reasons he is a thief is because he need money to live? I always felt sorry for the broke landlord, he was allways blackmailed and then i go and steal everything in his apartment and the blackmail money. Poor guy. :(


I always thought of that as "balancing the books." Then again, I am also a contemptable and cruel human being...

Direlord
21st May 2009, 18:45
Well, in Thief DS, Garrett ended the game with enough $ left over to retire comfortably (unless the player was wasteful)

Even being extremely wasteful it was too easy to have insane amount of money left over. The T1 & T2 how often did you save any decent amount of money between missions? From what I remember I spent almost every coin I had and often still not having the amount of tools I wanted for the next mission.

Garrett seems to always not have enough money for his landlord as I think every game the early missions he has to pull a decent size job because the rent is late. I think Garrett mostly pickpockets between the games but i'm sure he spend it on a lot of things not discussed either.

The upgrade system seems nice adds some RPG elements to it but what if your lockpicks break in the middle of a mission and you need them later? For different weapons what would be the reason for changing the weapon? Would the game need to be balanced for all weapon combinations? If i get a sword and x-bow what would be the difference if I stuck with a dagger and my normal bow. Would the balancing or missions need to be tweaked for one set of gear or another? If i kept the old would i be making the missions harder for myself?

TafferPants
21st May 2009, 18:46
On babes of course :D
<<

Skaruts
21st May 2009, 19:24
The upgrade system seems nice adds some RPG elements to it but what if your lockpicks break in the middle of a mission and you need them later? For different weapons what would be the reason for changing the weapon? Would the game need to be balanced for all weapon combinations? If i get a sword and x-bow what would be the difference if I stuck with a dagger and my normal bow. Would the balancing or missions need to be tweaked for one set of gear or another? If i kept the old would i be making the missions harder for myself?

I guess so. It's kinda like the same as if you went on a mission with no water arrows. You can still make it, but it's harder. Missions wouldn't need to be tweeked, they rather would be possible to go through in diferent aproaches, leaving the player to choose the gear they like the most or the one they can afford to buy or restock.

Also imagine: Having the possibility to buy a lighter sword would give Garret a faster sword swinging thus allowing him to defend himself better against those thugs that came to his apartement, after dawn, to kill him for vengeance. Then garret could grab himself well to the walls cuz he bought those fine leather gloves, and he can climb like Altair ;), up to the rooftops and flee from the rest of the thugs. Then with some money savings he can go buy a new apartement, cuz he can't live within the keepers all the time.

I always thought that Thief could be a tremendously good RPG without needing to evolve the character . But I'm happy that it is what it is anyway.

Tom Pladgett
22nd May 2009, 02:07
I remember actually commenting on this same issue years ago on the TTLG forums. What I came up with was that Garrett is actually psychologically allergic to money. Think about it: every wealthy nobleman he steals from is invariably corrupt and/or insane, so in Garrett's mind, wealth inevitably causes decadence and madness.

So, no matter how many valuables he acquires, money bleeds through his fingers. Maybe he gambles it away, maybe spends it on fine food and drink, or gives it to complete strangers, not out of any charitable impulse, but because he simply does not see any value in saving it up. He's the ultimate craftsman, stealing for his enjoyment and professional pride, but mortally afraid of actually becoming rich.

Skaruts
22nd May 2009, 05:16
lol he robbed the city bank and did not take it's gold. Only some object I can't remember.

But ppl change, and Garret sanity is well guarded by his strong and balanced mind. :p

GmanPro
22nd May 2009, 05:21
I remember him expressing disdain for 'feelings.' Saying that he equates them to getting caught etc etc, something something ... "gets in the way of my money." And he also seemed quite concerned about someone in Cragscleft prison who owed him money.

Flashart
22nd May 2009, 13:59
In the "real world" Garrett would know that he has to put a little something away for his retirement.
But in the game context I like the idea of choosing my equipment and having to find the cash to pay for extras. T2 gave you just enough cash, so it made sense within the story of Garrett being poor thus having to pick up extra loot as the missions progress.TDS had the right idea with lots of loot but nothing to do with it.
A Thief is more likely to take a high risk/reward mission, than go through the same hassles for a couple of gold coins. But in story terms Garrett wants some stuff for himself so I think it's important to find a use for it.

Aristofiles
3rd Jun 2009, 16:19
perhaps this could be mixed in with the storyline... His haveto raise money to help him achive his goal.. perhaps he needs help from someone who demands a certain sum.

One of the small things that have been bugging me in earlier thief games is that garath gets filty rich every time and yet it clearly states that he does it for a living... he could have retired 20 times over. Why does he need so mutch cash and were have he put the fortune he alredy have collected?

kaekaelyn
3rd Jun 2009, 21:10
I always thought it was weird that after the TMA mission "Shipping...And Receiving" you got to use every penny that you stole to purchase goodies, even though you were apparently using it to pay the rent. I think that if you have something specific to pay off, that sum should be deducted from the amount you can use to buy stuff before the next mission. You might feel like you're scraping, but I think you should. Hard times, deal with it.

Hypevosa
3rd Jun 2009, 23:03
The original game designers wanted you to spend all your money you got and live for the moment, and that's why loot never carried over in the first 2 games. I feel it should be more realistic personally... here's how I see it:

Rent: Based on how notorious you are i.e. sloppy with getting sighted and identified, your rent starts out at 50 gold a day, and can go as high as 500, and is subtracted after every mission.

Food and Water: Probably 20 gp that's just subtracted after every mission.

Information: They never actually charged us for information in previous games except for tips for levels we were already going on. Garrett just is good at locating it, i.e. overhearing it at a bar, or in the street, or outside someone's window. I think information for missions could be found this way, or maybe occasionally someone would need greasing of 100-200 gold or so.

As for weapons upgrades I already suggested that it be possible already, and it would give players incentive to save gold. However, upgrades should only be there as an option, and never become a necessity for gameplay, and upgrades should focus on stealth and speed and defense, over doing more damage, because you're a thief and not supposed to be killing people to begin with.

Knight
6th Jun 2009, 20:30
Good idea stronger items, better look clothes (hood, cape) and but i dont know.. bodyguard? hmm... he cant sneak, and garrett is not a terminator..

Skaruts
6th Jun 2009, 23:44
bodyguard isn't suitable for a thief. At least not for garret

Everyone is supposed to be unnaware of his presence, hidding and running is the way he defends himself mostly. A bodyguard would certainly feel like a rock in the shoe. :p

I sugested, a few posts ago, having the oportunity to buy a better sword, for ex., only imagining that the game could have a time where some thugs would try to kill him at his apartement and he would have to fight them back a little. Assuming the fight would still be extremely hard. As a kind of a way to open some space to sneek between them and split outta there and hide from the rest of the thugs. Not to fight to the end.

In this way I think buying better items or weapons would be very rewarding. Not to make the game easier, just more interesting.

3 Fingered Jack
7th Jun 2009, 02:25
Look at any film noir or pulp detective novel. The protagonist is always broke, that’s part of the mechanic. Garrett falls into that same stereotype. With his academic/monastic training I doubt he visits a brothel for anything short of business. Similarly I doubt he drinks more than one or two (again, for business reasons). He won’t spend money on guild dues or tithes, so when he has money I guess it goes to (in this order)
1. Equipment- I imagine he buys the best because good equipment can be the difference between success and death.
2. Information/contacts- Again having reliable contacts may make the difference between life and death- this is tier 2 because Garrett knows that even his best friends can’t be trusted.
3. His nest egg- Garrett knows that you can’t be a successful thief forever. I imagine he puts a percentage of his cash not used in the first 2 tiers it into hard forms (jewels) and stashes it in a number of difficult to find places.
4. Food
5. Rent

Hypevosa
29th Jun 2009, 00:56
Personally, I liked the old games' amount of loot per level, where around 2-2.5k was what I'd say was the average amount was. I also liked how if the mission was right before a harder one, it would tend to have a slightly higher loot count. TDS overdid it a little in my oppinion, where the average amount of loot was between 3-4 grand per level, and the Museum even had over 7grand, when you weren't even going to be doing anything but sneaking around afterwords! (I admit though, it did make sense for it to have so much)

If the equipment costs the same as it did in the old games, and they intersperse some equipment in levels as per tradition, What do you think is a good average loot per level?

Arkanis
29th Jun 2009, 01:44
2-3k going from a small to large mission. I found most tools to be in massive quantity, rarely necessary, and very strong when used. I'd also like to see more dependance on some tricks/items, since you can get through the earlier games with minimal item usage. I never used any sort of explosive or gas item (Except on trigger areas in zones) until my third playthrough when I realized I never had. Never needed the stuff.

Bossnagger
29th Jun 2009, 10:23
Bring back rope arrows gd. No more useless wall climbing.

esme
29th Jun 2009, 10:31
he left the keepers before they gave him the final lesson - how to get things out of his bag of holding after he's put them in there

Fatherwoodsie
30th Jun 2009, 18:34
whats a good amount of loot? well that depends on how much items/weapons will cost. i think maybe there should be a couple sword upgrades, but dont go overboard with upgrades. oil flasks should be cheap, and infinite supply, not just 5

jtr7
30th Jun 2009, 19:16
Sword upgrades? To do what?

Nate
1st Jul 2009, 05:58
ugggghhhh, not upgrades again!

Fatherwoodsie
1st Jul 2009, 07:10
NOW NOW, HEAR ME OUT :) i dont mean special corny WOW flaming fireball lightnight bolt wizardry magic swords....i just mean a stronger sword.....remember in the dark project when you had that first sword and then stole constantines sword, how it made absolutley no difference in appearance or strength??? it just had someones name on it.

dont be offended when i say upgrade becuase i am a true thief fan myself im not an RPG fanboy, i just wanted to clarify, that i think you should be able to pick up and steal different swords. maybe juyst different handles or blades, nothing fancy. maybe like one particular gaurd has a saber, one has a dagger, nothing special, just would be cool to have the ability to pick up, steal or buy a better sword.

xDarknessFallsx
1st Jul 2009, 07:18
I was thinking:
What if Garret could spend that money in something usefull or something pleasant?

what if Garret could buy a stronger bow, a better dagger, a short-sword cuz he had none, or even a diferent hood?
I wouldn't want this. The more weapons that get added, the more the devs have to worry about gameplay balance and trying to get everything to work right. I'd prefer the game just be created with a core set of T2 tools (no dagger, no climbing gloves). Focus on them, don't get too out of control with the variety, and build a solid game based on the limited toolset. I could do without some T2 items even, like Flash Mines. Save weapon and outfit upgrades for games like Oblivion, Diablo, and Sims, imo.


And what if he could hire some kids as his informers, or pay other thieves to aid him in some way, or bribe a guard for corruption acts or and inn keeper for info exchange
T2 had elements of this, where you can buy tips or get hints and tips through the cutscenes. I prefer we just keep it like T2 regarding this.


or even buy a new apartment from a corrupt guy who would sell it to him?
Wow. I'm scared... :eek:


Some of my ideas may seem a little out from thief world, but if well thought and well implemented they would certainly pay off on making sidequests (if there's any) and give some use to extra coins...
Sometimes I wonder if folks want to play Thief in Thief 4, or are they looking for some other game? :)

EDIT: That's awesome, Jtr7! :D

Fatherwoodsie
1st Jul 2009, 08:29
yes, sorry, i do mean a sharper sword....but although garretts sword didnt break, there were many broken swords on the ground throughout the game ;)

trust me i dont want anything fancy either! ill be humble enough to even admit that maybe that idea of a sharper sword is not necessary becuase in all honesty i can do without. id be satisfied if they left the same sword throughout the whole game even, i guess i was just trying to think of something new but without going overboard.

yes appearance has nothing to do with gameplay, but variety can be better.

why have an apple, a cucumber, a carrot, loaf of bread, and a block of cheese when they all do the same thing? right?

Platinumoxicity
1st Jul 2009, 08:31
Heh heh heh. I'm amazed at how a lot of things that are asked for, are asked for as though Thief did not have these elements already, which I must assume is because TDS is considered the only Thief, and not the last third of one story that was missing elements of the first two-thirds. They shouldn't have dropped the "3".

@FatherWoodise: Thanks for being a good sport and clarifying for us. I still don't know what you mean by better sword, when its appearance is meaningless to gameplay, and Constantine's sword was different looking, and did not increase invisibility when drawn. I don't know what you mean by wanting a sword with more strength, since the swords never take damage or break, or do you mean it somehow makes Garrett stronger to deal more damage, or sharper to deal more damage?


I've always been wondering the same thing. In all kinds of fantasy-RPGs the sword does more damage if it glows, has a nice name or if you glue money to it at a blacksmith.

-"Are you sure you don't want to buy this "Apocalypse blade" for 50000 gold instead?"
-"It's the same blade as this 50 gold one, taffer. You've just painted it black and red"
-"But it's got a 160% damage, 75% more hit probability and 40% more defence."
-"Well, I'll just hit harder, better and faster then, right?. Here's your money."

-"Oh, I've got an "Mangdril's enchanted Suit of Armor" it's got 50% reduce in scratch, bite and claw damage."
-"Yeah, right jackass. Since when did claws even do damage on a suit of armor?"

-"This "Holy shield of Uzangar" halves the amount of damage I recieve."
"Oh, really? Well why don't you learn to use it then so that you could... I dunno... SHIELD yourself with it completely?"

RPGs are so dumb. There are no bad or good weapons, only bad or good warriors.

Fatherwoodsie
1st Jul 2009, 08:34
meh! your taking my posts too blindly and automatically thinking im some sort of world of warcraft fanboy. dont jump the gun just because you see an idea you thought youve seen before, but clearly didnt read the whole post!

Nate
1st Jul 2009, 13:32
No upgrades....period!

Oh look, it's Garrett in his Plate Mail of Doom and his 2 handed BattleAxe of Cleaving. Oh no, he's also leveled himself up to level 20 and has reached epic level Thief! Oh oh, Garrett has also bought 2 rings of invisibility and a cloak of teleportation....nobody can catch him now.

Ok, if anybody thinks the above would make a great Thief game....you really should just leave!

ToMegaTherion
1st Jul 2009, 13:55
There should definitely be a bow upgrade.

esme
1st Jul 2009, 15:26
am I the only one who read that as a buttaxe of cleaving ? ... must be the heat this end

Platinumoxicity
1st Jul 2009, 16:40
There should definitely be a bow upgrade.

The devs should start rumors of a bow upgrade so that everyone would look for it but never find it. :)

Fatherwoodsie
1st Jul 2009, 17:52
"No upgrades....period!

Oh look, it's Garrett in his Plate Mail of Doom and his 2 handed BattleAxe of Cleaving. Oh no, he's also leveled himself up to level 20 and has reached epic level Thief! Oh oh, Garrett has also bought 2 rings of invisibility and a cloak of teleportation....nobody can catch him now.

Ok, if anybody thinks the above would make a great Thief game....you really should just leave!"

dude that was just as unfunny as when platinumoxicity said that same thing.

Platinumoxicity
1st Jul 2009, 19:33
meh! your taking my posts too blindly and automatically thinking im some sort of world of warcraft fanboy. dont jump the gun just because you see an idea you thought youve seen before, but clearly didnt read the whole post!

I'm not saying that you're a world of warcraft fanboy. I just think, and I believe that you agree, that a blade weapon is a blade weapon and you can't buy better blade weapons. There is no perfect sword. There is no bad sword. They both cut through flesh and that's all they do. You can't buy a sword that does more damage. Any RPG elements, like swords with different damage levels are too stupid ideas to fit in a Thief game. Don't you agree?

Skaruts
1st Jul 2009, 19:50
I wouldn't want this. The more weapons that get added, the more the devs have to worry about gameplay balance and trying to get everything to work right. I'd prefer the game just be created with a core set of T2 tools (no dagger, no climbing gloves). Focus on them, don't get too out of control with the variety, and build a solid game based on the limited toolset. I could do without some T2 items even, like Flash Mines. Save weapon and outfit upgrades for games like Oblivion, Diablo, and Sims, imo.


T2 had elements of this, where you can buy tips or get hints and tips through the cutscenes. I prefer we just keep it like T2 regarding this.


Wow. I'm scared... :eek:


Sometimes I wonder if folks want to play Thief in Thief 4, or are they looking for some other game? :)

EDIT: That's awesome, Jtr7! :D


I think you missed the point of my post.

And for those saying you can't buy a better weapon, you should read posts better too, There are several types of swords (Short, Long, Heavy aka two-handed, Scimitars, etc) and they may vary in size, weight and material which they are made of.

If you are a big muscle man you can probably wield a heavy sword with no problems, but I doubt Garret could. Thieves use short swords and leather clothes cuz they are not strong and they need light material to make them agile and silent. I stated in some post here that you could have a heavyer sword at the beggining and later in the game you could (someway) get a lighter sword which you could swing faster thus making your fighting better.

Also, I wasn't talking of upgrades, and I don't agree with upgrades, since my idea of upgrades is not the same as swapping sword, for example.

Don't confuse things here, and don't take things to the fantasy side of RPGs. Thief is swiming in fantasy, has a few RPG elements, but it's not an RPG.

ToMegaTherion
1st Jul 2009, 20:00
I'm not saying that you're a world of warcraft fanboy. I just think, and I believe that you agree, that a blade weapon is a blade weapon and you can't buy better blade weapons. There is no perfect sword. There is no bad sword. They both cut through flesh and that's all they do. You can't buy a sword that does more damage. Any RPG elements, like swords with different damage levels are too stupid ideas to fit in a Thief game. Don't you agree?

I guess that means Dark Project is too stupid to be a Thief game, then?

Skaruts
1st Jul 2009, 20:03
I'm not saying that you're a world of warcraft fanboy. I just think, and I believe that you agree, that a blade weapon is a blade weapon and you can't buy better blade weapons. There is no perfect sword. There is no bad sword. They both cut through flesh and that's all they do. You can't buy a sword that does more damage. Any RPG elements, like swords with different damage levels are too stupid ideas to fit in a Thief game. Don't you agree?

Read my last post before this one.

Platinumoxicity
1st Jul 2009, 20:36
Read my last post before this one.

I don't know whether you support RPG-ish weapons or not anymore.


I guess that means Dark Project is too stupid to be a Thief game, then?

Yes, I believe that Dark Project shouldn't be considered a Thief game because of all the special "poison blades of undead slaying", "holy broadswords of defence" "chain mails with +15defence and -10 stealth" and "short sword with +25 speed". I also think that the way they switched from the good old player-based system that was in the first game, Deadly Shadows to a level-based skill system that was in the sequel, Dark Project was a pretty bad idea.

ToMegaTherion
1st Jul 2009, 20:46
Stop being deliberately stupid, it isn't amusing.

Skaruts
1st Jul 2009, 20:52
I don't know whether you support RPG-ish weapons or not anymore.
Read more closely.


Yes, I believe that Dark Project shouldn't be considered a Thief game because of all the special "poison blades of undead slaying", "holy broadswords of defence" "chain mails with +15defence and -10 stealth" and "short sword with +25 speed". I also think that the way they switched from the good old player-based system that was in the first game, Deadly Shadows to a level-based skill system that was in the sequel, Dark Project was a pretty bad idea.

1- The first game is The Dark Project, the sequels are The Metal Age and Deadly Shadows.
2- None of those things exist in any thief game. Nor they ever will.

Platinumoxicity
1st Jul 2009, 20:56
Stop being deliberately stupid, it isn't amusing.

But it's funny when some people take it seriously. Like above. :D

ToMegaTherion
1st Jul 2009, 20:56
OK, one point to you. :)

Acorn
2nd Jul 2009, 04:41
Garrett needs to buy gear, pay rent and maybe buy information.
Also, a mission could cause you to have to re-buy your sword, bow and blackjack.

You could chose to do or not do most of that.

If you don't pay rent you have to pick your own lock when the Guards aren't looking.

If you don't buy hints and tips or gossip, then you're going into the mission blind and may miss some loot.

If you do buy info, you're out the gold for that, but may stand to make more gold than otherwise.

Fatherwoodsie
2nd Jul 2009, 05:02
no i dont like the idea of garrett having to pick his own lock. i dont even like the idea of garretts having a "home" or "apartment". i think it would be better if garret had a bunch of hideouts in different locations. a hideout thats not on the books! no rent! no landlord! nunna that! just straight up dirty dark alley/rooftop hideouts. so maybe some sort of home? yes. but landlords and rent? no.

Hypevosa
2nd Jul 2009, 05:38
but the landlord is so important to the series! He's the real nemesis behind everything, don't you see!

Fatherwoodsie
2nd Jul 2009, 05:46
yes, so leave it in the story, not in the gameplay nor levels

Fatherwoodsie
2nd Jul 2009, 06:17
"I'm not saying that you're a world of warcraft fanboy. I just think, and I believe that you agree, that a blade weapon is a blade weapon and you can't buy better blade weapons. There is no perfect sword. There is no bad sword. They both cut through flesh and that's all they do. You can't buy a sword that does more damage. Any RPG elements, like swords with different damage levels are too stupid ideas to fit in a Thief game. Don't you agree? "

yes i do agree. thats why ive said maybe i was wrong or need to reword it correctly.....so what im saying is maybe just different looking swords that you are able to pick up. like a hammer has one weapon, the pagan has a weapon, the gaurd has a weapon, and you should be able to pick all of the weapons up if they are found next to the dead body of such. i dont want damage points or anything like that, but just a few different looking swords/weapons thats all.

its so dumb how you can pick up a hammer in TDP and all you can do with it is throw it?! you should be able to use it. do you agree with that?

the idea of different characters using different weapons, and being able to pick up and use those weapons, is just a slight addition to the game that will effect absolutley nothing other than the fact of knowing that you now have someone elses weapon. and at the very least, it is only being realistic! i think its a miniscule, but good idea. will anyone agree with this?

xDarknessFallsx
2nd Jul 2009, 06:58
There should be an eye upgrade that lets you see where the loot is via a shiny glint. ;)

EDIT: Just kidding. Several folks here probably know by now TDS isn't my favorite in the series, but just wanted to clarify for those who might not know.

Fatherwoodsie
2nd Jul 2009, 07:24
"It's not dumb to not be able to use those other weapons when you realize what it takes to put it in Garrett's hand, and not only animate accordingly, but make it collide with AI and surfaces correctly, and add any new sound effects necessary. The FM makers have to use 3D modeling programs to make an arm and hand holding a weapon that is actually built into the arm and hand as all one piece, then make a proper texture to skin it with, and assign it the correct animation, or use animation software to make it work right, and so on. There's a logical reason for the break from reality in-game. "

good points. i didnt think about the physics and all of that. but that doesnt mean it cant be done. it may just take longer. or raise the price of the game an extra 5 bucks, which i will gladly play. again id like to confirm that its just a wishful thought that i had. im not going to hold a gun to anyones head about it.

"There should be an eye upgrade that lets you see where the loot is via a shiny glint."

yeah, sorta like infra-red vision......... not! lol

Skaruts
2nd Jul 2009, 12:00
Adding new animations and stuff is nothing they can't handle. They're professionals, they can make that no sweat (or should be able to). Besides, maybe they are already doing it while we talk, maybe not, but they may have to do it anyway for some other things.

I think it's a good idea. Although it would have to remain a bad idea to try to wield an axe or a hammer, because of their weight, But it would no doubt be interesting to wonder around like "eheh, now I got a hammer!"

I think it would be good to have to give the sword away to carry another weapon. Otherwise Garret would go along with all the weapons in his belt and back, which isn't much realistic.

Hypevosa
2nd Jul 2009, 12:57
I haven't tried, but if you pick up a hammer/mace in the old games and throw it at someone, even at their head... does it hurt them, or just make them go alert? I think throwing something at someone should hurt them, and knock em out if I'm good enough to hit em in the head. Of course, that object hitting the floor afterwords would suck, but if you really needed a longer distance knockout (ya can't throw things 50 feet even) it could be fun.

Maybe I could throw a gas mine at an opponent's head, hit him and knock him out, then when his buddy came to investigate the noise he'd get the gas XD Oh the fun I could have, if just for the sake of fun.

xDarknessFallsx
2nd Jul 2009, 17:17
If you run at the AI and make sure the hammer's head strikes them, two hits and they are dead. You can use the hammer to get past the no kill objective, too. Running and throwing increases the impact, same as pivoting Garrett while slashing with the sword will increase damage by increasing the impact.

I knew hammers took them out. But I didn't know running increases the impact, or that pivoting Garrett while swinging the sword increases damage. That's pretty cool! Good work LGS. Good work.

Fatherwoodsie
2nd Jul 2009, 18:08
invisibility does bother me. but in a world of magic and technology, it may not be so far off path. if they do add an invisibility potion, then should jack up the price. that way you either want it really badly, or just realize its not worth it

Skaruts
2nd Jul 2009, 19:52
Not true, or it would be done, and it usually is not. If they had all the time and money they needed, yes, they could, but they don't, so they won't. It isn't easy at all. It requires many steps and programs and testing, as well as testing by the playtesters. Just knowing how to do something doesn't make it easy. All three games lacked animations for things the devs WANTED to do, but had to drop the idea and go with something else.


I didn't say it's easy, but they are trained and they get their plans before they start and if they plan to add new animations they will, unless, as you well said, the budget doesn't allow. But that doesn't mean they can't, and it doesn't mean they don't include it on the plans. Budgets dont come out from the air, neither plans are made without thought. What I meant is, they know better than 90% of us what they are doing. And they are the ones who will consider if it's viable or not. Not us. We are just meant to dream around so that they get our thoughts. That's why they opened the forums so early.



So, other than building in a new set of game mechanics to fix the unreality of not picking up and/or using weapons (or any common world item, for that matter), what would be the real purpose? Because if they can't make it quick and dirty to manipulate these other weapons, using them better have a purpose that isn't just because it's not realistic, and not to encourage warfare. I think if things are going to be made more complicated, then we need to bring in the other RPG modifiers, to increase realism by making any weapon that doesn't have the heft and feel of his sword more awkward, and unwieldy to use, for lack of training and specific strengths and dexterity required to use them well against an opponent that is trained. Outside the game it makes sense to pick up and carry and use things lying around, but as a game, it becomes its own reality with its own rules, and anything you want to see has to be built and anticipated and honed, with limited time and money.


I didn't meant that having an hammer would be useless. I said "it wouldn't be such a good idea" cuz it's heavy and you would strike an enemy twice with a sword in the same amout of time that takes you to just lift the hammer up. On the other hand, the hammer would make more damage, obviously. Still having a sword would probably be advantageous over having a hammer. There's no need for RPG modifiers at all. I said this before: Thief is NOT an RPG and I don't want it to become one.



You've forgotten all the highly unrealistic amount of equipment and weaponry and big ol' loot bag he's carrying around already (and people want to triple the number of things to choose to carry!), mostly invisibly, and that doesn't bother you?

It does. A lot. And that's why I said "it would be good to have to give the sword away to carry another weapon. Otherwise Garret would go along with all the weapons in his belt and back, which isn't much realistic."

Hamadriyad
2nd Jul 2009, 19:56
Gameplay>realism.

Skaruts
2nd Jul 2009, 20:01
It depends on the situation at hand. And on the budgets.

Hamadriyad
2nd Jul 2009, 20:11
It depends on fun. If realism adds fun to gameplay then welcome. If it breaks the gameplay then not welcome.

Acorn
2nd Jul 2009, 21:19
no i dont like the idea of garrett having to pick his own lock. i dont even like the idea of garretts having a "home" or "apartment". i think it would be better if garret had a bunch of hideouts in different locations. a hideout thats not on the books! no rent! no landlord! nunna that! just straight up dirty dark alley/rooftop hideouts. so maybe some sort of home? yes. but landlords and rent? no.


I liked how the FM makers dealt with his lodgings though.
When he was ground floor, They put either escape trap doors to outside or the sewers.
When he had a loft apartment, the FM maker gave him a big window with access to the rooftops.
I played one where the guards started beating down my door and I had to run to the other room, open the window and escape.

kaekaelyn
2nd Jul 2009, 21:24
The Thief devs should definitely take a good, hard look at some of the best FM's. It's sure to open their eyes about how the fans interpret the games and the atmosphere. We can talk about Thief all day, but the best way to get them to realize what we're talking about is to show them. I'd make a thread, but I never really played many FM's, because for some reason I used to be a little OCD about canon and the originals. Now I can't play anymore because my computer has started to fall apart...great...but as soon as I get it working I'm going to "study" some FM's! ;) Maybe someone who knows more about FM's can make a thread.

Hypevosa
2nd Jul 2009, 22:02
I really hope I can throw a vase of flowers at someone's head to knock them out (anything of substantial weight at least)... it really would make my day every time, even if it set people on alert it would be worth it... And if I ever pulled off that gas mine thing I would probably hoot loud enough to alert everyone in 5 blocks to my gamerness XD

Skaruts
3rd Jul 2009, 02:59
It depends on fun. If realism adds fun to gameplay then welcome. If it breaks the gameplay then not welcome.

That's sort of what I meant...

Hamadriyad
3rd Jul 2009, 07:49
That's sort of what I meant...

Haha:D Ok then. :)