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Flashart
20th May 2009, 11:11
Do you want a minigame or "time penalty" animation, or a bit of both? (Game for doors, animation for chests)
I liked the TDS minigame even though it wasn't the most challenging, but can it become too
tiresome?




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esme
20th May 2009, 12:23
I quite liked the TDS lockpicking

acridrose
20th May 2009, 12:28
Good question, and I wouldn't mind either way. There's something engaging about the DS way, but also quite distracting about it. They MUST reuse the old sounds! They were great :D

Flashart
20th May 2009, 13:32
I thought of say, 4 lockpicks that you have to select the correct order, but that could get quite tiresome but include a "single use" master pick, that would break and be expensive to replace.

Or go with the TDS concentric tumblers but have more or randomized "sweet spots".

OR!! Have an animation for locks, but a real Safe combination minigame, that way you'd only get one, maybe two of these per level.

To me, lockpicking would be a big part of a thief's life, but how much emphasis should it have in the game?

NathanGPLC
20th May 2009, 13:33
This a topic that I can go either way on. But, as with any subsystem:

1) If there's a minigame, it has to avoid breaking immersion. TDS actually did that fairly well, so kudos on that point.
2) Whether there's an active minigame or a time-delay system ala T1 & T2, it needs to impact gameplay appropriately. For example, either way, it will take longer to open locked doors than unlocked ones--but if you have infinite time, that doesn't matter. So you need to set-up situations where taking too long can get you discovered; this is one reason I like Thief levels where blackjacking or killing the guard results in mission failure, since otherwise a lot of puzzles are reduced to 'take out all the guards first,' and the lockpicking is much less exciting.

There were a number of excellent Thief 2 levels where you had to begin picking a lock, dart into the shadows when a guard passed by, and then resume picking the lock from where you left off. Thief 3 lost that aspect of it, but the minigame was interesting enough that I didn't mind so much.

Blessed be,
~Nathan

Keeper_Riff
20th May 2009, 13:50
TDS lockpicking system was good for me. Without HUD of course — watching Garrett's hands is enough.

Espion
20th May 2009, 14:06
I always thought a lockpicking mini-game would be a great adition to the game but when they actually did it in TDS something just didn't feel right.

At first it seemed like an interesting approach but by the end of the game, if I recall correctly, I'd "learnt" the locks. It's been so long since I played through it but I'm sure there were only so many different solutions and you could figure out which one of them you were playing after the first few moves.

Because of this lock picking became simple and unchallenging, which then made it into an irritation everytime I had to go through it. There was no tension as I could have a lock open in moments and I never had to worry about a guard catching me at it, but at the same time I still had to spend this time doing something that just wasn't fun.

If they could randomise each lock so the sweet spots are at different angles then I'd probably be happy with the minigame being there, otherwise just take it back to how it was in Thief 1&2 because this...


There were a number of excellent Thief 2 levels where you had to begin picking a lock, dart into the shadows when a guard passed by, and then resume picking the lock from where you left off.

... was great fun. Even though I was holding a key down on the board and watching the lock jostle back and forth, it was so tense because I was never sure how long it was going to take. I could hear guards approaching and I had to make a decision on whether to persist with the lock or whether I should get back into the shadows.

Psychomorph
20th May 2009, 17:03
Deadly Shadows' lockpicking system for the win, you can't have it any better, visually and functionally. I must admit, that the manual system of T1/2 was kind of interessting, because it was much more manual, you were more involved, add this aspect to T3's system and you got a winner.

I can imagine that the right mouse button can operate the right hand that holds the one tool and the left mouse button operates the tool held in the left hand, learn to use this system and you can pick locks T3's style with more T1/2 manual involvement.

Also, add the sounds as information (louder cracking sound means you're closer to success, for example), that way you can even use the mouse to look around while picking locks (don't remember how it was in T3, but in T1/2 the inability to check your flanks while picking locks was frustrating).

imported_van_HellSing
20th May 2009, 17:11
I always thought a lockpicking mini-game would be a great adition to the game but when they actually did it in TDS something just didn't feel right.

At first it seemed like an interesting approach but by the end of the game, if I recall correctly, I'd "learnt" the locks. It's been so long since I played through it but I'm sure there were only so many different solutions and you could figure out which one of them you were playing after the first few moves.

This is actually how it was meant to be. You are supposed to get better at the locks by memorising the different types. Granted, there should be more of them, and they should have more varied sweet spot positions. Maybe a bit of variation and playing with expectations - after the first two moves you think it's the same combination as usual, but the game throws you a curveball by having one of the tumblers set up differently. Should liven things up somewhat.

Maethius
20th May 2009, 17:28
I liked both ways.... the old engine made it more like Garrett was using HIS skills. The minigame was fun, too, but relied as much on the player's skills. One thing that I always felt was missing... and maybe I'm just incredibly unobservant, was the real risk in all three games wasn't sound, but sight. You were usually exposed to pick a lock for a certain amount of time, but I never got the impression that the guards could hear the grating sounds of metal. If you could be both seen and heard opening locks, that would add a great thrill.

Also, why not up the ante? What if some locks are trapped now? The player might be given a subtle (or not so subtle, depending on the lock complexity) audio or visual clue that there is a trap. Garrett may then have to put away the lockpicks and trade them with a de-trapping tool, disarm the trap, switch back to the lockpicks and finish the job. While I wouldn't want this overused, it would raise the stakes in high risk areas.

Platinumoxicity
20th May 2009, 17:33
What I found particularly disturbing about T3 was that there were 3 to 4 different types of locks in most levels and NO KEYS for most of them. That's ridiculous. How do the guards move around the house?!

Zahr Dalsk
20th May 2009, 17:43
Thief DS minigame made it ridiculously easy to go through any lock in seconds.

I liked the time delay in Thief 1 and 2.

However, if they do go for a minigame, I'd sooner see something like Oblivion's lock picking where if you make a mistake you must start over (but no breaking lockpicks).

Maethius
20th May 2009, 17:47
What I found particularly disturbing about T3 was that there were 3 to 4 different types of locks in most levels and NO KEYS for most of them. That's ridiculous. How do the guards move around the house?!

That's a good call, there. Sometimes, didn't it feel like you were in a game rather than in a mansion? :D

Skaruts
20th May 2009, 17:49
T1 and 2 lockpicking style was one of the best aproaches I've seen. T3 could be nice, but the it wasn't chalanging. I remember pressing the arrow keys in random directions untill the tumbler (or whatever it was) started moving, and so on till the lock was unlocked. Even in golden locks it wasn't much challanging and I never fully memorised any lock. I just pressed keys.

I think T3 system would be great if it:
- had the left-hand/right hand control ability as in T1/T2.
- had no lock HUD, so you must rely on sounds, lockpicks movement on touching tumblers and perhaps bit of luck too.
- had more precise and diverging angles than it had (I always picked locks moving in angles of 90º and sometimes 45º, and I never raised them in my direction)
- (the most important) allowed you to look around you while lockpicking (at least up to a 135º angle backwards, beyond that would make you stop lockpicking)

Having more types of locks could be a good thing too, I guess. It would make you need more than one lockpicking kit. And, I dont know if the game has any realistic timespace, but combination locks exist since about the year 1309. There could be some in there too, maybe.

xDarknessFallsx
20th May 2009, 17:57
I despised the TDS lockpicking system, and do not want one for TH4F. If one is implemented, though, PLEASE (I beg you :) ) have the option for old-schoolers to just use the T2 way exactly. The T2 way was perfect for me. Some locks took longer to unlock than others; some used one lockpick, some used the other, some used a combo of both; the sounds were very satisfying and you could generally get a feel for making progress on the picking; and it was nice to just hold down the right mouse button to pick it. It was just the right amount of unpredictability also, so you never knew as you approached a lock how long you'd have to take to pick the lock. A lockpicking mini-game -- one that would be more than the T2 version or different than it -- would not be fun for me.

Skaruts
20th May 2009, 18:10
If I were in their place I would stick to that one if I didn't have a much more satisfactory system than the one in T3. As a failure proof measure, it would be advisable if they just sticked to T2 style. It's indeed a much safer and pleasent aproach.

But I still would like to see some more types of locks anyway. More variaty.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 18:27
I don't see how Thief 1 & 2's lockpicking system was "challenging." You held down the "use" button over a door and wait, switch pick, repeat until the door is open. Where's the challenge? Honestly, that's about as dumbed down as it gets. Deadly shadows atleast had some variety and the ability to improve your lockpicking skills through memorizing different locks based on their design and metal used. In all honesty, Thief 1 & 2's lockpicking feature was tedious, boring and lacked effort in its design. (Yes, I went there.)

As for the option to switch Thief 4's lockpicking to TDP & TMA's style, I'm going to have to go with, "Absolutely not." Look, I'm glad we all think Thief 1 & 2 were good games, but holding onto dated aspects of the first two games like a life preserver does not help the franchise move forward and improve. If you don't think it can improve, then there is still PLENTY of high quality fan missions for Thief 1, Gold and 2 to go back and play. The first games in the series have one of the most devoted legacy gaming communities out there that constantly is pumping out high quality content.

xDarknessFallsx
20th May 2009, 18:46
I don't see how Thief 1 & 2's lockpicking system was "challenging." You held down the "use" button over a door and wait, switch pick, repeat until the door is open. Where's the challenge? Honestly, that's about as dumbed down as it gets. Deadly shadows atleast had some variety and the ability to improve your lockpicking skills through memorizing different locks based on their design and metal used. In all honesty, Thief 1 & 2's lockpicking feature was tedious, boring and lacked effort in its design. (Yes, I went there.)
That's where you and I differ. I don't need the task of lockpicking "challenging" in that I get carpal tunnel trying to manipulate lockpicks. To me, it's fun enough to just hold the "use" button and wait. The game has so many other things to do and appreciate that a side game where I pick locks didn't seem necessary or desirable (to me). I guess the challenge in T2 is that guards might show up at any time, or they might hear me picking the lock... but that's enough for me; I don't need it to be a mini-game. It was boring in TDS because it was so mind-numbingly easy (not challenging at unless unless you consider the occasional 'suck into light, oops now I'm exposed' issue challenging).


As for the option to switch Thief 4's lockpicking to TDP & TMA's style, I'm going to have to go with, "Absolutely not." Look, I'm glad we all think Thief 1 & 2 were good games, but holding onto dated aspects of the first two games like a life preserver does not help the franchise move forward and improve. If you don't think it can improve, then there is still PLENTY of high quality fan missions for Thief 1, Gold and 2 to go back and play. The first games in the series have one of the most devoted legacy gaming communities out there that constantly is pumping out high quality content.
I do go back and play T2 and fan missions, and all I'd want in a TH4F is Thief 2 in an updated game engine, new levels to explore, new missions to beat, an updated story, improved AI, updated graphics/physics/etc. I don't need oil flasks to make guards slip, climbing gloves, a lockpick mini-game, loot glint, locks in the center of doors, blue frob highlights, no swimming, no rope arrows, the latest/greatest graphics to the detriment of gameplay, or other new things to "help the franchise move forward." I feel it stands well on its own without the need to add a bunch of new features. For some reason, T2 just seemed to have an almost perfect balance of things I needed in a sneaker game.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 18:59
That's where you and I differ. I don't need the task of lockpicking "challenging" in that I get carpal tunnel trying to manipulate lockpicks. To me, it's fun enough to just hold the "use" button and wait. The game has so many other things to do and appreciate that a side game where I pick locks didn't seem necessary or desirable (to me). I guess the challenge in T2 is that guards might show up at any time, or they might hear me picking the lock... but that's enough for me; I don't need it to be a mini-game. It was boring in TDS because it was so mind-numbingly easy (not challenging at unless unless you consider the occasional 'suck into light, oops now I'm exposed' issue challenging).

And I think the term "mind-numbingly easy" is more apropos for Thief 2's lockpicking system, as it's simple "Point, click, hold." Obviously we differ very much, as I like to play fresh and new experiences very often.


I do go back and play T2 and fan missions, and all I'd want in a TH4F is Thief 2 in an updated game engine, new levels to explore, new missions to beat, an updated story, updated graphics/physics/etc. I don't need oil flasks to make guards slip, climbing gloves, a lockpick mini-game, loot glint, locks in the center of doors, blue frob highlights, no swimming, no rope arrows, the latest/greatest graphics to the detriment of gameplay, or other new things to "help the franchise move forward."

Then I'm going to be extremely frank with my next statement.

You're never going to be happy with what EM puts out unless you get over your obsession with Thief 1 & 2 and your unmitigated hatred for Thief 3, because clutching onto Thief 2 like you seem to do is going to kill any possible fun you could concievably have with the next installment. If you want to latch onto the past for dear life, that's your own problem.


I feel it stands well on its own without the need to add a bunch of new features. For some reason, T2 just seemed to have an almost perfect balance of things I needed in a sneaker game.


Jim Rivers from Obsidian Entertainment said it best: "If you cling to the past by using outdated features and programs in this industry, you'll never make it far in the digital field." Keep your rose tinted glasses on if you want, they honestly will hurt you more in the long run.

Case in point, I had huge problems playing Bioshock when it came out. I'de get ten minutes into the game and quit, wanting to play System Shock 2 instead since it did most of the things in the game "better." When I finally sat down and played Bioshock, I found an amazing experience that I couldn't believe I was passing up because I thought another game was better. While I still think System Shock 2 is a better game, I don't let it kill my experiences with other games anymore and I'm better for it. There's remembering the past and then there's holding onto it for dear life, the latter of which has serious drawbacks and reprecussions.

Smooogy
20th May 2009, 19:27
I think the lock picking in thief deadly shadows was actually a good change of gameplay. At first it seemed way too easy after having played the first two games, but I like the way Garrett whips out the picks and gets started without you having to scroll through your items.

Petike the Taffer
20th May 2009, 19:27
TDS-style lockpicking all the way !

But :
- add more random sweet spots
- give players looking for a higher difficulty the possibility to switch the HUD off in the game options, so lockpicking would feel even more challenging and realistic - only seeing Garrett's hands and relying on the sound of the tumblers

GmanPro
20th May 2009, 19:28
I liked both. So either way I'll be happy. Just so long as EM doesn't try something new and dumb.

Smooogy
20th May 2009, 19:29
I liked both. So either way I'll be happy. Just so long as EM doesn't try something new and dumb.

That's where I'm coming from

xDarknessFallsx
20th May 2009, 19:46
Master Taffer: :) I hear you. T2's lockpicking system wasn't really designed to be challenging to do, so I'm okay with it. T3's, on the other hand, was turned into a mini-game, which implies a bit of an intent to make it challenging. The fact that T3's turned out to be mind-numbingly easy, imo, is only meant to say that if they were trying to make a mini-game, they didn't really succeed. You're right, T2's is mind-numbingly easy, but LGS wasn't really trying to make it a mini-game (thankfully, imo), and I like that it's mind-numbingly easy. I'm not looking for a lockpick game.

When it's something I immensely enjoy, like Thief 2 (which has some faults that can be and I hope are improved), I fear it getting screwed up by trying to create something that deviates from the experience I enjoy. I had good hopes for T3, very excited. The final product was a let down. It's not that I didn't enjoy it, but there were far too many things that were 'not right' or 'not as good as T2'. So I don't hate T3, but I don't ever have a desire to play it again due to its shortcomings.

Latching onto T2 is what I feel I need to do, to help try and avoid a T3 experience again. It's the safe route to go for now.

The Bioware quote (nay, you corrected -- Obsidian's quote) you gave is good ("If you cling to the past by using outdated features and programs in this industry, you'll never make it far in the digital field")... but in relation to T2, that game is easily updatable. EM can "make it in the digital field" without destroying the Thief gameplay experience we all know and love. And something tells me EM won't be using outdated programs (i.e., development kits from 1998) to make TH4F.

TafferPants
20th May 2009, 19:58
a lockpick mini-game.
You mean the practice locks you buy in the shops? That's not a mini game. There is no reward for doing it and it's not manditory.



loot glint
Yeah alright. It was a bit silly. But it helped sometimes. Because some of the loot would blend into the textures and it was annoying. It would have helped in T1...remember that gold ring against that yellow carpet?


the latest/greatest graphics to the detriment of gameplay

True. HOWEVER! we don't need today's games with 200+ poly's per character. Graphics help to some degree.


For some reason, T2 just seemed to have an almost perfect balance of things I needed in a sneaker game.

Then play Thief 2.
I love to play my old games too..but if games in a series kept the same graphics, the same gameplay, the same everything. It in all honestly would be boring. I am not saying thief should throw out the old but it could improve on a couple of things. Thief 3 was a nice start. It wasn't great but it was a nice fresh start.

Espion
20th May 2009, 20:42
I don't see how Thief 1 & 2's lockpicking system was "challenging."

You're missing the point entirely. Unlocking the door isn't meant to be the challenge. Unlocking the door without getting caught is the challenge.

In Thief 2, whilst you were "simply" holding down a key, the lock was taking time to pick. This was critical because you never knew how long it was going to take. At any moment an approaching guard could catch you in the act and alerting everyone.

The challenge came from timing the pick right, not from opening a door which, let's be honest, should be no challenge for a Master Thief.

The TDS system was so easy I could get doors open in no time and the suspense of the previous games was gone. That is why the TDS system is inferior and that's why it should be changed.

I don't mind if they have a mini-game, so long as it doesn't get tedious, simple, and take away from the suspense of trying to do something I'm not meant to be doing... TDS failed to do that.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 20:45
You're missing the point entirely. Unlocking the door isn't meant to be the challenge. Unlocking the door without getting caught is the challenge.

So, you let go of the button and duck into a shadow when you hear footsteps coming. And once he passes, you just walk back to the lock pick up exactly where you left off. I still fail to see the challenge. There's really minimal effort in it. Me thinks you're stretching, sir...


so long as it doesn't get tedious...
You're sitting there holding a button and waiting. Considering tedious means "long and tiresome", I'de say it's a perfect word to describe Thief 1 & 2's lockpicking...

...simple...
You sit there and hold a button! This is supposed to be more complex than finding tumblers and setting them in place?

...and take away from the suspense of trying to do something I'm not meant to be doing...
Considering a patrolling guard can still come by and catch you picking, nothing has changed in that regard. The only thing that has changed is the fact that you rely on your own skills rather than an imaginary time duration.

Espion
20th May 2009, 20:52
So, you let go of the button and duck into a shadow when you hear footsteps coming. And once he passes, you just walk back to the lock pick up exactly where you left off. I still fail to see the challenge. There's really minimal effort in it. Me thinks you're stretching, sir...

The challenge is on a lock by lock basis and depends on its location, how many guards are patrolling nearby, the floor aroound it, etc.

Sure, some locks you just jump back and forth from. Some are a real pain to get to and unlock.

In T2 this situation would require me to plan my approach carefully and then carry it out skillfully or risk being caught.

In TDS I just get to the door and I'm through it in a matter of seconds.

That is the challenge.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 20:58
The challenge is on a lock by lock basis and depends on its location, how many guards are patrolling nearby, the floor aroound it, etc.

Nothing has changed there. You're just judging Thief: Deadly Shadows' system because your personal skill increased too much, it seems.

And that's an odd rational, no matter which way you slice it.

"This sucks because I got too good at it!"

Espion
20th May 2009, 21:26
"This sucks because I got too good at it!"

Well... Yeah.

In Thief 2 I could never get better at it so locks were always a challenge and therefore fun.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 21:31
Well... Yeah.

In Thief 2 I could never get better at it so locks were always a challenge and therefore fun.

If you consider sitting there holding a button fun, good on you, then.

Ravenwood
20th May 2009, 21:32
Well... Yeah.

In Thief 2 I could never get better at it so locks were always a challenge and therefore fun.

Um.....what?

WVI
20th May 2009, 21:32
I liked DS's system, because rather than waiting, you had this feeling of "C'mon c'mon have to do this quickly before I'm spotted". It added a lot of welcome tension.

TafferPants
20th May 2009, 21:37
Well... Yeah.
:scratch:



In Thief 2 I could never get better at it so locks were always a challenge and therefore fun.

Lockpicking in T2 makes you want to find keys (if you can for the lock).

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 21:40
Lockpicking in T2 makes you want to find keys (if you can for the lock).

Now picking the pocket of the guard on tile to get that key, THAT is challenging!

Ravenwood
20th May 2009, 21:40
:scratch:



Lockpicking in T2 makes you want to find keys (if you can for the lock).

You know, that's a good point. It was more challenging to explore the level to find the door's keys than it was to sit there and hold down a button to pick the lock...

Espion
20th May 2009, 21:41
If you consider sitting there holding a button fun, good on you, then.

No I consider getting to and from the lock under dangerous conditions, picking it whilst evading the dangers around me and getting through it a challenge. As I said, The actual picking of the lock isn't the challenge. Picking the lock whilst under imminent threat is the challenge.


Um.....what?

As I've said already, a mini-game that can be solved in no time presents no challenge and even if there's a threat in the form of guards around me I don't have to worry about it because I can have the door open and be out of site before they get close.

In Thief 2 the lock will take as long as it takes to pick. However long the level designer wanted it to take. I can't speed it up beyond switching picks at the right time. When you have a guard bearing down on you in that situation you have the choice of persisting with the lock in the hopes that it'll open before the guard reaches you, or rush back across a noisy floor, risk being seen by a camera or heard trying to get back to the shadow before he arrives.

That is more entertaining.

It's about the situation I'm picking the lock in, not the turning of the tumblers.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 21:48
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Rizzor/beatingadeadhorse.gif

Your'e beating a dead horse, good sir. The threat of guards catching you while lock picking is in Deadly Shadows. The fact that you are capable of picking through a lock too fast isn't the fault of the lockpicking mechanic, but rather your own aptitude with the feature.

You getting good at something does not make it bad. Hell, I havn't felt an ounce of tension while playing Bafford's Manor in close to 9 years, as I have the level down to a polished, Lytha style shine that I can accomplish in my sleep. It doesn't mean the level is bad now.

Espion
20th May 2009, 22:18
Your'e beating a dead horse, good sir.

I could say the same thing to you.


The threat of guards catching you while lock picking is in Deadly Shadows. The fact that you are capable of picking through a lock too fast isn't the fault of the lockpicking mechanic, but rather your own aptitude with the feature.

Surely that's an indicator that there is a problem with the system, or at the very least that it's not as capable as the previous system which doesn't fall to pieces if a player gets too good at it.


You getting good at something does not make it bad. Hell, I havn't felt an ounce of tension while playing Bafford's Manor in close to 9 years, as I have the level down to a polished, Lytha style shine that I can accomplish in my sleep. It doesn't mean the level is bad now.

That's why we want Thief 4 :D Same great game, new levels that you haven't been playing for nine years.

I say again. I'm not against the concept of their being a mini-game for unlocking doors. I just want it to retain the basic principle of the original system where the environment is more of an issue than the lock itself. The TDS sytem didn't do this because it's possible to learn it well enough to beat without feeling any tension... Blaming me because I got good at it just isn't a good argument for why a mechanic works.

Ravenwood
20th May 2009, 22:19
Maybe I should elaborate on my "Um....what?" post.

How is the lack of the ability to improve on a skill make that aspect of the game more challenging? Nothing changes, you rely on a timed button hold throughout the game. In DS when you're first introduced to the lock picking you probably fumble a bit so you can get a feel for how you perform the action. Eventually you yourself (not Garrett in the game) improve in the skill to recognize what locks you're picking and like a master thief you get to the point where you pick the lock quickly and efficiently.

In 1 and 2 he sometimes takes longer to pick the same type of lock at the end of the game that he had picked in the start. So we're to believe Garrett is that slow a learner? Or...what, he's picking the lock slowly on purpose to pull a last minute lockpick just as the guard walks by?

Part of the challenge in DS is that it's up to you to learn and improve yourself, to actually become Garrett in-game. That, I felt, was better than clicking and watching as a spectator.

Espion
20th May 2009, 22:34
Maybe I should elaborate on my "Um....what?" post.

How is the lack of the ability to improve on a skill make that aspect of the game more challenging?

Sorry for quoting one of my previous posts but it really does answer the question:


... I consider getting to and from the lock under dangerous conditions, picking it whilst evading the dangers around me and getting through it a challenge. As I said, The actual picking of the lock isn't the challenge. Picking the lock whilst under imminent threat is the challenge.

...

It's about the situation I'm picking the lock in, not the turning of the tumblers.


In 1 and 2 he sometimes takes longer to pick the same type of lock at the end of the game that he had picked in the start.

Since you can't see the internal workings of the lock, exactly how do you know it's the same type of lock? It's unreasonable to assume that everyone in the city would use the same lock. Even locks made by the same manufacturer have different sized pins which will require different amounts of presure. Or a simpler explanation, they're different locks with similar external plates... Simpler than that is that at the time there was too little memory to make an individual texture for each lock in the game.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 22:37
I could say the same thing to you.



Surely that's an indicator that there is a problem with the system, or at the very least that it's not as capable as the previous system which doesn't fall to pieces if a player gets too good at it.



That's why we want Thief 4 :D Same great game, new levels that you haven't been playing for nine years.

I say again. I'm not against the concept of their being a mini-game for unlocking doors. I just want it to retain the basic principle of the original system where the environment is more of an issue than the lock itself. The TDS sytem didn't do this because it's possible to learn it well enough to beat without feeling any tension... Blaming me because I got good at it just isn't a good argument for why a mechanic works.

No, it's not a good arguement why it DOESN'T work.

Your logic is baffleing and irrational to me. The player increasing skill and knowledge about a game mechanic to the point of greased perfection is...bad? By that same logic, Thief, the Dark Project is bad because I can ghost it in my sleep.

As it's alreayd been said REPEATEDLY in this thread, you are still in situations in Deadly Shadows where a guard can catch you picking a lock to a door/chest. The fact you want to LINGER in that situation as long as possible does not create a challenge, it's putting yourself in harms way. You should want to aspire to BE OUT OF that situation as quickly as possible.

I honestly can't understand your logic in the least, as it seems completely irrational to me, so I'm just going to drop it since we're just in a stand off at this point. You like the tension involved with putting yourself in harms way for an extended period of time, and I like perfecting a game mechanic to the point of mastery so I don't HAVE TO be in that situation.

Ravenwood
20th May 2009, 22:39
Sorry for quoting one of my previous posts but it really does answer the question:

No. No it doesn't. Because everything you argued in that quote was available in DS. The risk of getting caught was still there. The only difference was you relied on your own speed and skill in DS to avoid getting caught. In fact, I think the "minigame" was more challenging because it took longer to get out of lockpick mode than it did to let go of the mouse button.



Since you can't see the internal workings of the lock, exactly how do you know it's the same type of lock? It's unreasonable to assume that everyone in the city would use the same lock. Even locks made by the same manufacturer have different sized pins which will require different amounts of presure. Or a simpler explanation, they're different locks with similar external plates... Simpler than that is that at the time there was too little memory to make an individual texture for each lock in the game.

You have a point, but my argument still stands. He never improved in lockpick skill throughout the game. Even if they are different locks and different styles without looking different, he still should have enough knowledge in his thiefsie little head to improve before the game ended.

Espion
20th May 2009, 23:01
The player increasing skill and knowledge about a game mechanic to the point of greased perfection is...bad?

Yes, because once it no longer becomes an issue to unlock the doors it starts becoming boring to even have to do it. Especially since there were only so many different locks instead of it being random each time. It became boring to play and frustrating when it came up again. It completely took me out of the game.


As it's alreayd been said REPEATEDLY in this thread, you are still in situations in Deadly Shadows where a guard can catch you picking a lock to a door/chest.

And as I've said repeatedly, no I wasn't.


The fact you want to LINGER in that situation as long as possible does not create a challenge, it's putting yourself in harms way. You should want to aspire to BE OUT OF that situation as quickly as possible.

I don't want to linger. It's just the case that in the first two games there was no choice and it added some genuine moments of tension that made the game more enjoyable. I prefer a system that is fun to a system that grows tired quickly.


You like the tension involved with putting yourself in harms way for an extended period of time

No, I like the tension of being put in harms way by the game. The first two games did this, the third didn't.


No. No it doesn't. Because everything you argued in that quote was available in DS. The risk of getting caught was still there. The only difference was you relied on your own speed and skill in DS to avoid getting caught.

And therefore the risk of getting caught wasn't still there... You're directly contradicting yourself in that statement o_O

There was still danger, just not for me... So there wasn't danger.


He never improved in lockpick skill throughout the game.

Why should he? He's already a Master Thief. It's not like you can get better than "master."

You keep complaining that I'm making no sense but I have to throw that back at you... You all want the game to get easier as you play through it? Traditionally, the game is meant to get harder towards the end o_O

Platinumoxicity
20th May 2009, 23:21
I'd like to see the combination locks return also. You could sit in a shadow and wait for a guard to open the lock and spy with your eye which numbers he's pressing, and then you can open the lock afterwards yourself. The number pads should still be those enormous mechanical panels that were in T2.

Also there could be safes that have those single-dial combination locks that you need to put your ear against and listen to the correct numbers.

xDarknessFallsx
21st May 2009, 00:07
Nothing has changed there. You're just judging Thief: Deadly Shadows' system because your personal skill increased too much, it seems.

And that's an odd rational, no matter which way you slice it.

"This sucks because I got too good at it!"
I'd have to play TDS again, but were the lock picks really that tough to figure out? Seems like sound and visual queues made it really easy. And once you knew the "formula" they were highly predictable. What was designed to be some sort of "puzzle/challenge" was all the sudden an annoyance because the puzzle was never challenging again yet you were required to move your mouse all around.

Once a puzzle is no challenge and just wasting effort, yes, I'd rather just hold down the "use" button because I'm just going through wasted (and boring) motions at that point.

xDarknessFallsx
21st May 2009, 00:13
I'd like to see the combination locks return also. You could sit in a shadow and wait for a guard to open the lock and spy with your eye which numbers he's pressing, and then you can open the lock afterwards yourself. The number pads should still be those enormous mechanical panels that were in T2.

Also there could be safes that have those single-dial combination locks that you need to put your ear against and listen to the correct numbers.


Okay, these are nice ideas. I really like them. In T2, you usually found the combination of locks in notes and scrolls, etc. If some doors, a select few (so this doesn't get over-used), could only be opened by watching guards open them, that'd be pretty sweet! If this door leads to a room that's critical to the mission, then a note or scroll would probably need to be on the level to tip the player that they'll need to watch.

If combination locks were not in TDS either, as it soundsl like you're implying/saying, I totally forgot about that... and it would just be one more failure of TDS! :(

MasterTaffer
21st May 2009, 00:15
In the end, all this has fallen down to is, "What do you want in your lock picking."

Apart from the baffleing prospect of, "Getting good at something = Bad," I can honestly see both sides of these arguements. I'm just planting my flag in the hill that thinks Thief 1 & 2's lockpicking was tedious and simplified.

BlooferLady
21st May 2009, 01:07
Clearly there are 2 sides to this, and I really think it depends on who likes mini games and who gets bored with them. So how about we try and get the best of both worlds, huh?

I like not knowing how many tumblers you have to go through. That's what made picking the locks in T1 and T2 so tense. You sit there, watching the handle turn, and when it finally gets vertical, it shoots back up and you have to go another round! By then, the guard on patrol is back, has spotted you, and you have to drop a flashbomb and give the guy a bonk to the head. That aspect is very entertaining, and was present in all the games. But the T3 lockpicking could possibly be made more interesting by removing the certainty of "ok, just one more tumbler."


However, if they do go for a minigame, I'd sooner see something like Oblivion's lock picking where if you make a mistake you must start over (but no breaking lockpicks).

I did like Oblivion's lockpick system, but as I voiced to my roommate, the oblivion lockpicking let you see how you were working the lock, while T3 let you feel how you were working the lock. (If you played the xbox version with the rumble pack, you really felt this. I've played it on PC and XBOX, so for pc you "felt" the sweet spots in a more metaphorical sense. Oh well) Anyways, I would prefer not to have a cross-section of the lock in front of me. Feeling your way through the lock was more realistic. Or perhaps that's an upgrade for Garrett's eye, the ability to see through walls. (JOKE! Though it would come in handy...)

So you'd just have Garrett's hands working in the lock in front of you. And randomizing the locks would make it less predictable, as would not having recognizable kinds of locks. I never did see the point in buying practice locks. The lock picking was easy enough that I didn't need to practice.

Ravenwood
21st May 2009, 01:39
And therefore the risk of getting caught wasn't still there... You're directly contradicting yourself in that statement o_O
There was still danger, just not for me... So there wasn't danger.

Who's the contradiction here? You basically said "there was danger, but there wasn't"

Thieffanman
21st May 2009, 01:39
I liked both ways.... the old engine made it more like Garrett was using HIS skills. The minigame was fun, too, but relied as much on the player's skills. One thing that I always felt was missing... and maybe I'm just incredibly unobservant, was the real risk in all three games wasn't sound, but sight. You were usually exposed to pick a lock for a certain amount of time, but I never got the impression that the guards could hear the grating sounds of metal. If you could be both seen and heard opening locks, that would add a great thrill.

I think what the developers were going after was that Garrett was already an experienced thief and a quiet lockpicker (is that a word? Lockpicker? :)), but you *can* get caught by them if you were seen.

I like the TDS minigame; using more manual dexerity requiring both hands like TDP could possibly add more to an already good system.


Also, why not up the ante? What if some locks are trapped now? The player might be given a subtle (or not so subtle, depending on the lock complexity) audio or visual clue that there is a trap. Garrett may then have to put away the lockpicks and trade them with a de-trapping tool, disarm the trap, switch back to the lockpicks and finish the job. While I wouldn't want this overused, it would raise the stakes in high risk areas.

I *like* this idea. I think you have something, here. :thumb:

--Thieffanman

MasterTaffer
21st May 2009, 01:42
Who's the contradiction here? You basically said "there was danger, but there wasn't"

There is no lockpick...

http://www.fastvideo.ru/info/applications/ballistics/img/neo.jpg

Ravenwood
21st May 2009, 01:44
There is no lockpick...

http://www.fastvideo.ru/info/applications/ballistics/img/neo.jpg


Yes. Very Yes.

Props to you, good sir.

Palmberg
21st May 2009, 03:36
TDS had a good idea, but it was too easy. And by easy I mean you could pick locks so FAST, if you've ever tried lockpicking in real life you know it takes time unless you get real lucky. Some locks in T1/2 took some time to unlock, at times leaving you exposed out in the open, so at the same time you had to listen for approaching guards etc. So if they could mix both lockpicking systems together somehow that could turn out great.

GmanPro
21st May 2009, 03:42
^^ Ok, I'll give it a shot.

Imagine the TDS lockpicking minigame with an added feature. You just hold down a key and Garrett goes about picking the lock by himself, but it takes time as it did in T1 and 2. Only thing is, It would have to be balanced properly or else no one would want to sit there while Garrett slowly picks the lock when they could just micro it open in 2 seconds.

Also, might be cool if you'd have to switch out lockpicks in the middle of it in order to continue. Anything to make it more like Thief 1 and 2.

xDarknessFallsx
21st May 2009, 04:12
It all just boils down to what you prefer. Sometimes it's hard to describe in words what you're trying to say. Bottom line for me: I strongly prefer the T2 system for reasons I may or may not be able to effectively describe. Bottom line for you: You like the TDS style for reasons you may or may not be able to effectively describe. In the end, no amount of reasoning will make us switch sides, for reasons we may or may not be able to effectively describe. :thumb:

WVI
21st May 2009, 06:48
Am I the only one who thinks lockpicking took just about as fast in all games?

Nate
21st May 2009, 07:01
The Thief DS system is pretty good...but maybe have it so you have to use TWO lockpicks at a time instead of just the one.

Mikkowl
21st May 2009, 07:12
T3 did the lockpicking well. I wish it was even more intricate and challenging. Minigames are fun, since they aren't a necessity.

A few notes on avoiding frustration and enhancing realism:

1. Never make lockpicking in a dangerous area the only way forward (this allows a more complicated and challenging lockpicking experience).

2. Don't punish for failing to lockpick (i.e. retry always an option).

3. Ability to look left/right, hear well and to immediately disengage the lockpicking in order to hide must exist. Being stuck there when wanting to leave would be infuriating.

4. Allow other means of opening doors, including noisily forcing them. Thief 1-2 allowed beating it in with the sword with several forceful swings. Both realistic and fun. Perhaps different strengths of locks and doors? Crappy doors can be kicked or tackled in, heavier doors require heavier objects to force, and some are reinforced and impossible.

EDIT: The first person 'view' of the lock should be there - the camera should not change like it does in System Shock 2, Bioshock etc to a special minigame screen.

Platinumoxicity
21st May 2009, 08:45
I liked the T1/T2 lockpicking system, but I'm going to say this from TDS's lockpicking system:

TDS would have had a very good and realistic picking system, but Ion Storm never finished making it. It's "beta" as everyone can see. There is a pick and a torsion wrench, but they put in only 8 positions for the torsion wrench when they should have utilized the whole keyhole. Also, every different type of lock should have been random/different in each mission but they were the exact same locks all around the city.

Ion Storm had the option to make a good lockpicking system for their game, but they scrapped the idea halfway there and threw the unfinished code into their game.

Espion
21st May 2009, 10:38
Who's the contradiction here? You basically said "there was danger, but there wasn't"

Dude... o_O

That was your contradiction. You said that the TDS system had all the elements of tension I was talking about but that I didn't experience it. That means that TDS didn't have those moments of tension... I was simply boiling down what you said to point out your contradiction...


There is no lockpick...

Wait, now you're taking this piss out of his contradiction?


Yes. Very Yes.

Props to you, good sir.

And you're essentially high-fiving him over the internet for it?

o_O




*Distancing myself form this argument*




Ok, since I've already said I'm interested in a mini-game, so long as it maintains the sense of atmosphere from the first games, I'd like to discuss a way of making a mini-game that can create the original tension whilst providing a more tactile experience with the locks.

The TDS lockpicking, in theory, was on the right track. The problem was that in practice it's far too simple and too fast:


First, lose the cutaway of the lock. As someone mentioned earlier, knowing how many tumblers you have to turn takes away the suspense of the moment.

Second, lose the whole "learn the locks" concept. Except for some locks which share the same key within the same building/area there should be no two locks alike.

Lastly, take the turning of the pick off the movement keys. Sweet spots shouldn't be on the compass directions, they should be at any angle.


I feel these three changes would go a considerable way to making the locks more challenging, and provide the sense of the unknown that creates tension in a dangerous situation. You can't rush locks like you did before (it is meant to be a delicate proccess) since moving the mouse to quickly would make you miss the sweet spot, and it's not a foregone conclusion as to the type of lock you're picking.

The entire lock setup was ridiculous in TDS. Different strength locks, indicated by a different external plate, but identical to every other lock of the same strength? So much so that a thief can buy practice locks?! Anyone with a key to the same coloured lock would be able to get into someone elses house! Forget lock picking, just make sure you get a copy of each key and you're set! :nut:

Utterly stupid. Not to mention that, aesthetically speaking, no noble would buy different strength locks and not give them identical face plates. For a start it's a dead giveaway to where you're hiding your valuables and it would look quite odd if every door had a different coloured handle.

The lock's solution should be randomised on placement in a level using basic settings (normal/hard/expert) that adjust more fine-tuned settings (number of pins, location of sweet spots, etc). If the level designer wants/needs to, they can adjust those finer settings on a door by door basis later, or copy the settings from one lock across to other doors if necessary.

As for traps in harder locks, Maethius, brilliant idea. The player would have to listen out for subtle sound cues to identify between a sweet spot and a trap, then maybe use a different lockpick to disarm the trap. Considering the amount of crime in the city it wouldn't be unheard of for nobles to take precautions and it would add a sting to the game for those players that aren't being careful with what they do.

Also, combination locks and code locks would be great fun. You already had code locks in Thief 2 (the warehouses in the docks) so there's no reason why they shouldn't be there again.

Lastly, Mikkowl is right in suggesting that being able to force the lock should be brought back. It's bloody noisy, but in an emergency it's faster than lockpicking.

Flashart
21st May 2009, 10:52
Both systems have a time penalty, I guess it just depends if you want to be doing something
to help, or just watching an animation?
Garrett is a good Thief some locks would be picked in seconds, others not.
What about my suggestion for a minigame on safes only? You could then have quite a challenging time once or twice in a level?
I don't know whether forcing a lock is good thing or not, to me it sets us down the road for using explosives to blast doors open.

Espion
21st May 2009, 11:15
Garrett is a good Thief some locks would be picked in seconds, others not.

Yup, and this was accurately demonstrated in T1&2.


What about my suggestion for a minigame on safes only? You could then have quite a challenging time once or twice in a level?

That could work, though it might appear too inconsistent.

If EM decided to use mini-games on any locks I think I'd prefer it if they had games on all of them rather than some. Different types of mini-games for the different locks is a nice idea though. Combination locks, code locks, key locks... They all have different mechanisms. It'd be nice to see some variation, just so long as they maintained that same tense atmosphere.


I don't know whether forcing a lock is good thing or not, to me it sets us down the road for using explosives to blast doors open.

It was really something I only did in an emergency or if I knew I couldn't get caught. Using explosives to blow open doors might not be a bad idea (another use for mines anyway), though again it's taking away from the stealth and, whilst it would be nice to have the option, I doubt I'd ever use it... Unless there were undead on the other side of the door :D

esme
21st May 2009, 11:28
as I said before I quite liked the DS lockpicking system, however I've had a bit of a think about it and there were a few aspects I didn't like


I couldn't pick a lock and look to the side to see if anyone was approaching, sort of pick the lock by touch if you like

and whenever I did pick a lock the avatar was physically dragged to a position square on to the lock which put Garrett right in the sightline of any AI on the other side as soon as the door opened, I like to stand to one side when I open doors and check whats on the other side before I step into view also if you were opening a box it was possible for Garrett to be dragged into a position that caused him to be stuck between the box and something else, this is more of an FM problem though


what I did like was, the speed at which I got through the lock depended on my personal skill level, ok they were very easy locks to pick but it's easy to make a mistake that costs you time if you know you've only got a short time before an AI will discover you, which helps to create the heart pounding, sweaty palmed, near panic of excitement that I get playing thief

as flashart suggested maybe we could mix the two types within a level

Espion
21st May 2009, 11:48
I couldn't pick a lock and look to the side to see if anyone was approaching, sort of pick the lock by touch if you like[?LIST]

Since the lean keys aren't being used whilst picking a lock pressing them could have Garrett look left or right?


[LIST] and whenever I did pick a lock the avatar was physically dragged to a position square on to the lock which put Garrett right in the sightline of any AI on the other side as soon as the door opened, I like to stand to one side when I open doors and check whats on the other side before I step into view also if you were opening a box it was possible for Garrett to be dragged into a position that caused him to be stuck between the box and something else, this is more of an FM problem though


All the auto-positiong in TDS was a real pain in the ass and hindered peoples play style. I hope it's something they drop in the new game.


what I did like was, the speed at which I got through the lock depended on my personal skill level

Unfortunately this seems to be something different people were better at than others. I don't mind them keeping a mini-game but it needs to be adapted somehow to still present a challenge to all players, otherwise it just becomes a tedious chore.

HellionKal
21st May 2009, 13:16
I have a pathological hatred for mini-games (for some reason that completely eludes me, people consider "fun" and "challenging" to HAVE to play a mini-game in order to proceed, even in types of games that should not include them for any reason), so in my completely biased and unreasonable manner I'll just go for TDP and MA-style lockpicking.

Flashart
21st May 2009, 14:06
My thought about the safes were that they were most likely in a secure area
which by the time you'd got to them you'd possibly not be in a hurry. That way you
could have a minigame that required skill rather than just "slowing" you down.
Because these would be tough you could only have them in a few places.

Alternatively, have an animation with say, 4 lockpicks but you've got to get the correct order. One mistake and you go back to Pick 1, there's a degree of luck in it, and it'll certainly slow you up.

I think lockpicking should be a major element in most levels, so I'd like to see it given some good consideration.

Platinumoxicity
21st May 2009, 15:26
Alternatively, have an animation with say, 4 lockpicks but you've got to get the correct order. One mistake and you go back to Pick 1, there's a degree of luck in it, and it'll certainly slow you up.
.

Picking locks doesn't really work that way, but there is some thruth about it. In T1 and T2, Garrett had 2 lockpicks, triangle- and square toothed. He also had a torsion wrench, but it wasn't presented visually because it was always needed in every lock. Now, there could be a minigame where you need to use the torsion wrench and find the correct pick, be it triangle-, square-, curve-, or saw toothed lockpick, for the lock and use that pick to slide the wrench in the right spots (Like in TDS, but better. :) ). There is no mistake that you can make so that you'd have to start over because your wrench is in the lock at all times. You can switch your pick to another during the process, just like in the older games. That is how you combine the technique used in T1, T2 and TDS.

MasterTaffer
21st May 2009, 19:11
Wait, now you're taking this piss out of his contradiction?

1. Ravenwood is a woman.

2. No, making light of your "There was still danger, just not for me... So there wasn't danger," comment, which is quite literally a contradiction by definition. And something you'de expect to find in a Matrix sequel discussion of, "What is real?"

Botlas
21st May 2009, 20:25
It'd be fairly easy to use the Deadly Shadows system and stick a "minimum time to pick" on it. For example, once you hit the sweet spot it didn't automatically click the tumbler; there could be a set (or random, if you prefer) delay on how long it takes to click the tumbler. So if your primary complaint with the Deadly Shadows system is the lack of danger, that'd introduce a similar level of uncertainty to lockpicking, relative to Metal Age.

I don't really care either way, personally. Lockpicking isn't too difficult or too annoying in any of the games, and it's not the point of game.

Espion
21st May 2009, 21:21
1. Ravenwood is a woman.

Ok, thanks.


2. No, making light of your "There was still danger, just not for me... So there wasn't danger," comment, which is quite literally a contradiction by definition. And something you'de expect to find in a Matrix sequel discussion of, "What is real?"

I agree, it is a contradiction. That's why I pointed it out to you both that you'd made it here:


The threat of guards catching you while lock picking is in Deadly Shadows. The fact that you are capable of picking through a lock too fast...

... And therefore bypass the threat so it is no longer present.

And here:


The risk of getting caught was still there. The only difference was you relied on your own speed and skill in DS to avoid getting caught.

... And because of that difference, there was no risk.

Neither of you explicitly state the result of resolving the mini-game quickly, but it is the result, and that's what the contradiction is.

Part of the joy of playing Thief is in not getting caught but if I'm never in a situation where I might be caught, or if part of the game (in this case the new lock picking) reduces or entirely removes that element, then there's no longer that sense of joy from narrowly escaping.

Do you see what I mean now?

I get that you think the ability to improve a skill is good, and ordinarily I'd be side by side with you on that, but in this particular case I think it's detrimental to the gameplay.

Not to mention that something at the end of the game shouldn't be easier than something at the start of the game. Yeah, I should be better at the skill, but the game should be offering me more challenging opportunites to perform that skill. TDS simply didn't do that which made the lock picking more of a chore than anything else.

As I've already said I think the TDS system can be adjusted in a few minor ways so as to retain the kind of atmosphere Thief 1&2 had. Even if you're not interested in retaining that atmosphere, the changes would also make the mini-game more challenging by offering more variety.

Would you agree or do you think there's a different approach the devs might like to take?

Ravenwood
21st May 2009, 21:48
Espion, you're missing the point entirely here. We're saying that you rely on your own skill. Just becauseyou got good at it doesn't mean other players didn't find any risk.

What we said wasn't a contradiction in any sense. You're the one twisting around what we said to make it sound contradictory.

Saying "There was risk, you just rely on your own skill rather than the computer's" does not equal "There's danger, but there is no danger"

GmanPro
21st May 2009, 21:54
I want to see some doors with combination locks. Like Deus Ex.

You could have mechanist-style keypads, or even some padlock style safe locks. You would have to search the area for the combination, or maybe do some complicated minigame to master-thief it open.

ToMegaTherion
21st May 2009, 22:18
There was minimal risk in almost all cases in the first two games too, since you could almost always find somewhere to hide that was still in range of your extra-long arms.

There is a really cool door to pick in Deadly Shadows in St Edgar's Cathedral when you're ghosting... there is a Hammerite nearby, but sometimes he looks away from the door. If he looks at you while you're picking, you get caught, if you're not picking you can take a step backwards and hide. So to get through, you have to wait till he turns away, then pick one (two if you're lucky) of the layers, then stop picking and step back.

Espion
21st May 2009, 22:26
We're saying that you rely on your own skill. Just becauseyou got good at it doesn't mean other players didn't find any risk.

Ok, so it's a subjective contradiction then :) From one point of view there's a risk but from another there isn't.

Let's think of ways of fixing that so the risk factor is retained no matter who is playing?

Ravenwood
21st May 2009, 22:43
From one point of view there's a risk but from another there isn't.


That's....not really a contradiction. Just because two people experience something differently from each other does not a contradiction make.

However, I did like the idea earlier mentioned of more difficult locks as the game progesses (not neccesarily more tumblers but more complex locks that need more lockpicks or different techniques needed to get inside the lock). Though the thought of breakign the locks wouldn't be a great idea to me to be honest...if Garrrett is a Master Thief, I don't think he'd ever go about breaking locks. He'd deffinately be more careful and patient with getting into a locked area.

MasterTaffer
21st May 2009, 22:50
RANDOMIZED TUMBLERS!

That way you can't memorize locks, but there's still more interactivity than holding a stupid button and you can try to rush through a lock! There, problem solved! HURRAH! :mad2:

GmanPro
22nd May 2009, 01:10
I still say Thief needs combination keypads for epic doors.

Flashart
22nd May 2009, 09:21
I agree that a scalable "complexity" needs to run through the game, although I'd
rather it be mission specific than incremental.
ie A bank safe would be harder to get into, than a kitchen pantry, if the bank was mission 3
and the kitchen 9 so be it.
While the lock picking element shouldn't dominate the game I think it's fairly vital in creating the atmosphere, defining the thief role, and presenting a challenge.
I'm thinking that forcing a door might not be good, but certainly breaking open a chest/ desk etc might be a better option. Then there's gonna be the argument "I can do one, why can't I do the other?"

Mikkowl
22nd May 2009, 09:29
What about my suggestion for a minigame on safes only? You could then have quite a challenging time once or twice in a level?

I don't know whether forcing a lock is good thing or not, to me it sets us down the road for using explosives to blast doors open.
Mini-puzzle game for very special locks? Sounds entertaining, I like.

In thief 1-2 one could only force locks with something blunt, like one's sword. There were usually no explosives around, and if there were (Firearrows) I don't know how well they work, or if one would want to waste such an arrow on a mere door. For all we know, there will be no blast explosives.

Platinumoxicity
22nd May 2009, 09:29
RANDOMIZED TUMBLERS!

That way you can't memorize locks, but there's still more interactivity than holding a stupid button and you can try to rush through a lock! There, problem solved! HURRAH! :mad2:

Each mission should have a set number of different locks with different complexities, but the tumblers should be random and still the same between locks that have the same key. These randomized tumblers should change every time you start the mission, but there should still be consistency between locks that have the same key. ;)

Petike the Taffer
22nd May 2009, 10:40
One thing I'm getting tired of :

A lot of people are calling the TDS lockpicking a "minigame".

Huh ? Why ?

By this sort of logic, even blackajacking is a minigame. Or picking up loot. Or hiding bodies... Or... damn !

For the last time : The lockpicking is an integral part of the game, whether in TDP, TMA, or TDS. Calling it a minigame is clearly a strawman argument for those who just wan't to avoid saying "I hate TDS period, everything is wrong in it, yes, I'm a whiny fanboy".

I hate to insult anyone, but I've had it up to here with this childish argueing over every little feature, regardless of if it's bad or not.

Now...

Can we please call lockpicking lockpicking and get further on with some really constructive ideas, that would improve it ? Thank you all...

NathanGPLC
22nd May 2009, 12:13
Petike, lockpicking in T: DS is a minigame; it's a sub-section of the game that uses different controls and has a very different format from the game at large. Blackjacking is not a minigame because you still use the standard movement controls and gameplay format (character view, movement, objectives, etc).

And most people aren't saying that minigames are bad because they're called minigames; there's a real discussion in there about how to make lockpicking (minigame or not) good in Thief 4.

On another point: I would suggest that we be careful to avoid crying out for or against realism. Interestingly, the T: DS style of locks (several types you could learn the standards for) is realistic, for the time period.

In an age approximating the Victorian, locks actually are largish metal boxes in-set into the door; they'll be built for you by a locksmith, but given the cost of transporting goods, many households in a city would purchase locks from the same one or two locksmiths who worked there. Each locksmith would make a small variety of locks, but there wouldn't be infinite variety; they would favor certain styles, and yes, if you had a set of keys from a few of the locksmith's customers, you could probably open many locks around the city using just those. If the locksmith makes themselves a skeleton key--one that can open any of their own locks--well, then...

Basically, Victorian-era lockpicking should actually have been easier for Garrett than it is as represented in T: DS, and only slightly more complicated than the triangle/square picks from 1&2.

So if we were going for realism, Garrett would usually pick a lock by checking a default key-ring first; if recognizes the lock and it's maker (as a master thief and old hand, he probably DOES know all the local locksmiths and their individual styles), he might just pop it open on the first try.

Blessed be,
~Nathan

HellionKal
22nd May 2009, 12:45
Odd that we're STILL trying to bestow realism (in EVERY POSSIBLE LAYER) to a game that has Moss Arrows, mechanical eyes, walking skeletal spectres and large lizards that spew gas and cry when nearing death.

NathanGPLC
22nd May 2009, 13:09
Yeah; sorry if my point got lost there, but it was:

Realism doth not good game-balance make.

:-)

Blessed be,
~Nathan

HellionKal
22nd May 2009, 13:19
No worries, I was just commenting on the whole series of "let's do/add X to the game because it's realistic" arguments frequently seen in many threads in the forum, not your post in particular :D

Flashart
22nd May 2009, 13:26
I used the phrase "minigame" to denote you had to do something to pick the lock
rather than just let an animation run. I was trying to show a difference between
time-based or skill based penalties.
As far as realism is concerned, you can still have realism as long as it's within the context of the game/series. The game defines it's own parameters, as long as everything stays within those, it's "real". If there's 3 types of lock, there's three types, that's it.
What is unfair is if the goalposts move halfway through.

Thievingtaffer
22nd May 2009, 14:10
I want something that flows and fits more than something that is realistic. Good point Hellion.

BlooferLady
22nd May 2009, 21:52
"let's do/add X to the game because it's realistic"
I like realism...

Up to a point, that is. Realism can be something to go for, and I liked that about lockpicking in TDS. Like I said, it made me feel like I was working a lock. Yes, I know that that's not exactly how it would feel, but it was a step towards realism that I didn't mind. I agree that an overemphasis on realism can ruin a game. Otherwise you feel like you're playing a flight simulator, instead of a game. Which is an escapist activity to begin with.

Can we make a list?
1. randomize tumblers (I think we could all agree on this one)
2. make locks indistinguishable from each other. (Um, that's on my list, perhaps not yours)
3. have more estate/level keys that you could pickpocket and forgo the lockpicking, if you so choose

MasterTaffer
22nd May 2009, 22:30
Odd that we're STILL trying to bestow realism (in EVERY POSSIBLE LAYER) to a game that has Moss Arrows, mechanical eyes, walking skeletal spectres and large lizards that spew gas and cry when nearing death.

Lord of the Rings is fantasy, but in it an orc doesn't live if you cut its head off. Being realistic doesn't mean you have to dismiss its fantasy elements.

Psychomorph
22nd May 2009, 22:50
Lord of the Rings is fantasy, but in it an orc doesn't live if you cut its head off. Being realistic doens't mena you have to dismiss its fantasy elements.
Well said!

As a realism fan who doesn't mind playing sci-fi/fantasy games, it drives me nuts to hear people arguing that fantasy excludes any kind of realism. The best fictional aspects are the ones that are implemented with as much realism in mind as possible, that makes them believable.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
23rd May 2009, 07:29
I could go either way, but I would like to see an improved version of the minigame from Deadly Shadows. Not exactly sure how I'd go about it. I can say that I would like it based on sound and movement only. I don't want to see tumblers or anything like that. I agree that the lock should be random or whatever is necessary to keep me from 'mastering' it. The lockpicking minigame in TDS became pointless soon enough because it was just so easy. I think most of the time it boiled down to me moving my mouse left and right until it was open. Piece of cake.

So yeah, I would prefer a minigame as long as it can provide a challenge every time.

Flashart
23rd May 2009, 09:05
Random Tumblers, agreed.
"Combination" safes etc, agreed
Master keys, agreed. But only in levels where it would be appropriate.
Howabout a "masterpick" single use then breaks, is expensive but can get you out of a tight spot?

Thought I'd add this here, do you think windows should be forcable/ smashable? Or, only the windows which are "allowed" to open?

Espion
23rd May 2009, 09:29
Random Tumblers, agreed.
"Combination" safes etc, agreed
Master keys, agreed. But only in levels where it would be appropriate.
Howabout a "masterpick" single use then breaks, is expensive but can get you out of a tight spot?

Thought I'd add this here, do you think windows should be forcable/ smashable? Or, only the windows which are "allowed" to open?

Master pick... Maybe, but only if they balance the loot out so you don't end up in a situation like in TDS where you have so much money you've maxed out everything. A master pick should be one of those super expensive items, like the old gas mines, that are great for when **** hits the fan, but you really debate whether you want to buy it or not. Not something you just stock up on every time you visit.

As for windows, absolutely yes. One of the missions in Thief 2 had you get into a house through the window as I recall... And most of the Thieves Highway had you coming in and out of windows, skylights and airvents.

Thieves wouldn't use doors if they didn't have to :)

Mikkowl
23rd May 2009, 11:47
Odd that we're STILL trying to bestow realism (in EVERY POSSIBLE LAYER) to a game that has Moss Arrows, mechanical eyes, walking skeletal spectres and large lizards that spew gas and cry when nearing death.

The familiar, the possible, the expected way the world operates (i.e. newtonian physics) is highly relevant even to a world that is in other ways different from ours. Just like how if you fall off a tall tower, you expect to die, you can expect that picking a lock requires lockpicking (a skill that exists in our world as well). And since most Thief world locks are obviously somewhat simple mechanical locks similar to earth design, it follows that the method for lockpicking should be similar, too.

HellionKal
23rd May 2009, 14:43
Lord of the Rings is fantasy, but in it an orc doesn't live if you cut its head off. Being realistic doesn't mean you have to dismiss its fantasy elements.

Now imagine playing the LotR action game, and whenever you try to sever an orc's head a mini-game pops up, in which you must navigate your sword through the orc's neck and try to sever both the bone and his carotid in one swift swing in order for his head to be chopped off properly.

Mikkowl
23rd May 2009, 15:20
Now imagine playing the LotR action game, and whenever you try to sever an orc's head a mini-game pops up, in which you must navigate your sword through the orc's neck and try to sever both the bone and his carotid in one swift swing in order for his head to be chopped off properly.
This is an invalid analogy. The request for a special interface for lock-picking does not go against realism, the flow of time and so forth. It also is something a lock-picker would deal with. In contrast, some kind of special interface when the blade approaches the neck is something a sword swinger would not have the time, perception or skill needed to do anything more than a basic swing.

Flashart
23rd May 2009, 16:19
What I was getting at with the windows was should "every" window be smashable/forcable/able to open (if you can get to it. Or, only the "impoertant" windows?

BlooferLady
23rd May 2009, 16:30
^Even in the more massive levels of TMA, only some of the windows were openable (yeah, I think just made up that word). You would have access to every single house, which we've had in some games like Oblivion, but then again, the cities in that game were pretty small. I'd say just give us the ability to get into more houses via windows. Like in Life of the Party.

Petike the Taffer
23rd May 2009, 18:33
The only thing I'd want to add to my first post in this thread is :

Give the player the possibility to look over his shoulder for a few seconds while lockpicking (by holding down a key). This would eliminate the complaint about being unsure of a guard's distance during the lockpicking process. On the other hand, if it would make the game less suspensful and more easy, the player could have the choice to turn it off and have a fixed view of the lock like in TDS.

Just my 2 cents.


I'd say just give us the ability to get into more houses via windows. Like in Life of the Party.

Seconded.

Platinumoxicity
23rd May 2009, 21:23
The lockpicking sequence should have more free player movement so that you could move quickly away from the door without scripted animations that were in T3. For example, if you want to pick a lock, you crouch in from of the door and it brings up the lockpicking option, but if you press the directional keys during the sequence you abort immediately and you can escape quickly.

GmanPro
27th May 2009, 03:42
How about bashing of minor locks? Fastest way to open a container, but also very loud.

Direlord
27th May 2009, 17:00
I'd go for some bashing or otherwise forcibly opening minor locks I do think if they have higher difficulties though you are not allowed to do that.

It's been a good number of years but I actually think I would prefer the TDS method of lockpicking with a few changes. Not seeing the tumblers but able to see you move the picks would be a nice change with the lean keys looking left or right. Different sweet spots and perhaps maybe different lockpicks needed. Perhaps one hand would hold some tool that does not move and you have to use the other hand to pick a certain lockpick then find the sweetspot.

NO breaking of picks though while I don't know about that in most games I had to deal with it in fallout 3 and i absolutely hated it. not as much as breaking picks with mining in FFXI but that is a completely different thing.

Vae
29th May 2009, 06:30
I think an audible lockpicking game (no animation) would incorporate a "best of both worlds" experience. Having locks/safes trickier and with more variance in time to unlock them would keep the game tension higher. By making it only with the audible clicks keeps you immersed in the experience at the door/safe etc., being able to look around in the middle of picking instead of being focused on an animation of lockpicking is better overall. If THIEF IV uses traps (which of course they should) this audible minigame could be used to disarm them. This assumes that you are able to detect them first. ;)

K^2
29th May 2009, 11:44
Most locks aren't picked by sound, though.Pretty much, the only time you'd use sound is when you can't get inside the lock with some tool, and drilling holes isn't an option.

TDS had it just about right. No need to mess with it too much. Something more realistic or involved would become tiresome and distract from the game. A simple timed animation, on the other hand, isn't as tense. You pretty much know how long it will take to pick a lock. With TDS minigame, you can mess up, and not make it in time before the guard comes back.

Of course, if it is the choice between having a timed animation and some new gimmick that devs will invariably invent, I'd go with the timed animation. It's harder to screw up. But I'd prefer a take on the TDS method.

kin
29th May 2009, 11:56
I think the audible lock picking sounds as the best way to go in thief 4. Something like using the tension wrench on the lock and pushing the pick in would make a high pitched click sound. When pushing the pick furhter in a different sound could indicate the correct place to push down.

razorstealth
9th Jun 2009, 18:58
Most locks aren't picked by sound, though.Pretty much, the only time you'd use sound is when you can't get inside the lock with some tool, and drilling holes isn't an option.

TDS had it just about right. No need to mess with it too much. Something more realistic or involved would become tiresome and distract from the game. A simple timed animation, on the other hand, isn't as tense. You pretty much know how long it will take to pick a lock. With TDS minigame, you can mess up, and not make it in time before the guard comes back.

Of course, if it is the choice between having a timed animation and some new gimmick that devs will invariably invent, I'd go with the timed animation. It's harder to screw up. But I'd prefer a take on the TDS method.

hoorah!

MasterTaffer
9th Jun 2009, 19:10
How about bashing of minor locks? Fastest way to open a container, but also very loud.

Sam Fisher did it!

fraten
10th Jun 2009, 19:49
TDS lockpicking was good. Could be harder of course, but I wouldn't change the method.

MasterTaffer
10th Jun 2009, 21:32
TDS lockpicking was good. Could be harder of course, but I wouldn't change the method.

Take out the "lock tumbler" button and I think we'll have a winner.

kaekaelyn
10th Jun 2009, 21:33
What was lockpicking like on the PC version?

Erebos
10th Jun 2009, 21:34
Garrett should be experienced in hacking into terminals to unlock doors.

Zahr Dalsk
10th Jun 2009, 21:36
What was lockpicking like on the PC version?

Spin mouse in circles while spamming Mouse 1, open lock in seconds.

MasterTaffer
10th Jun 2009, 21:36
Garrett should be experienced in hacking into terminals to unlock doors.

Still has the problem of bypassing retinal scanners...

Terr
11th Jun 2009, 00:14
I liked the TDS locks, they were just a bit lazy about how they were generated.

Having a mini-game to it adds to the experience because it's not a matter of listening for it to finish while looking around, you actually have to split your attention.


Spin mouse in circles while spamming Mouse 1, open lock in seconds.

That was the hard way.

Use WASD and clicking to check all the cardinal directions. I think I could probably get two tumblers per second if I knew it was an up-up-left-right-down lock, etc.

Later, some locks used the intermediate diagonals, and just two or three used angles you couldn't access without moving the mouse slightly.

Thieffanman
11th Jun 2009, 00:25
What was lockpicking like on the PC version?

Holding the left mouse button down on each of the four compass points: N, E, W, or S. Eventually, one would be the correct place to open the lock.

One thing I considered about lockpicking would be to keep the minigame the same as TDS, expect for this: I'd actually have *each* lock set up differently to open at more random points. If the lock was like the face of a clock: instead of tumblers opening at 12, 3, 6, and 9, I'd have the pick-points at places like 9:25, 4:18, etc. And no two locks would be the same, of course :).

--Thieffanman

Nate
11th Jun 2009, 00:26
I'd be happy with a TDS type lockpicking system that is harder this time around.

Captain567
11th Jun 2009, 01:03
I don't mind if it goes either way.

What I do mind is the sucking in animation, being frozen in place in front of the door, and large GUI overlays that take you out of the game. Also locks in the centre of the door, what was the deal with that?

Terr
11th Jun 2009, 09:26
Also locks in the centre of the door, what was the deal with that?

Easier on the animation and level designers. It ensures there's adequate room on each side of the lock that Garret doesn't find himself partway inside a wall.

Vladimyre
11th Jun 2009, 16:44
Mayhaps do a tiered system or have different kinds of locks in different areas that each have a "trick" or new way to open them. Each type of lock could have it's own difficulty settings as well.

The lock you have on your garage door is completely different than the lock they have on a vault or deposite box.

If this has been covered, forgive me I'm being bad and posting from work an didn't read the entire thread.

V

jtr7
11th Jun 2009, 16:47
Mini-game's fine, it just needs to be minimalist, and the not lock the player's view or automatically move the player's body into position.

Sebra
11th Jun 2009, 18:26
Let`s think about...
When a smith invents a new type of lock, he produce it, improve it, sell it.
Another smith buy a lock, disassemble it, make "practice" version & lockpicks.
A thief can buy a practice version with lockpicks & learn to use them.
Only practice lock you can see "inside".

So I want several types of locks in game. With different tools to lockpick it.
Most types presented in several dificulties.
Each lock opened by "keycode", each key holds a "keycode" or several (masterkey).
"Hot spots" randomly generated at the start of map and the same for the same "keycode".
If there is a key to lock, it must be an option to take it or copy it.
Don`t break a lock by force. Break a door/chest if possible.
If there is no key, you can get the code needed by eyes, ears, from scripts.
If you don`t have code, you can try to open it.
Some hidden traps and way to avoid them.

Some beheivour wanted:
Ability to unlock and lock door/chest with key.
Auto lock door/chest when closed. (not for all locks)
NPC really use his key (unlock, open, go, close...lock). You can catch a door yet open.
If key is stolen NPC unable to open doors, panics and can buy new lock or guard a door.
You can get "impression" and ask some NPC for "copy".

And I want a page in th "options" named "dificulty".
On this page a check: [v] Lockpicking minigame. If not, use timebased version.

Nothke
11th Jun 2009, 22:35
Exactly what I wanted to say...

But actually all the keys in Thief 1,2,3 look like skeleton keys for opening warded locks, not a tumbler pin-lock... Thats strange because picking in TDS was picking tumblers. . picking warded locks is a different manouver, but can also be featured as a similar minigame, but with different tools.

So, why not include all the types of locks, including tumbler, warded, combination locks, or some fictional types of locks. all can be picked in a different ways, with different tools...and if thief 4 is going to be a city like TDS (which I hate), than the city might feature lock manufacturers, and to find the secret of a newly created lock... you might pay them a "visit".

also it would really be nice to see some black market all-opening keys, which cost a loooot of money, but they can shorten your time picking.

jtr7
12th Jun 2009, 01:25
Yes. Surely we are at a point where Garrett can look at a lock and know he can pick it or not, or if it requires something else, or if bashing it down is the only way. If he's a Master Thief, then let's learn how to walk in his boots? I mean, criminy, he kept Basso around for a reason! :lol:


Something that should be implemented is a lock that is separately frobbable than the door. If a door is locked and he cannot pick it, it won't highlight, while frobbing the door itself functions as always.

Sebra
12th Jun 2009, 05:04
also it would really be nice to see some black market all-opening keys, which cost a loooot of money, but they can shorten your time picking.not!

fayfuya
13th Jun 2009, 08:38
The TDS picklocking system was great, just perfect, but i think we should have the option in the game's settings that we can neutrelize the picklocking HUD, some people don't like it.
sorry for spelling mistakes :D

Shadow Blade
13th Jun 2009, 09:13
I liked the T3 lockpicking system but this time it must be challenging because picking a lock in 5 seconds flat really made locks no obstical in T3.

Random Sweet spots sounds good.
More types of locks sounds good to.

I personally wouldnt mind as long as they make it challenging

lefty
13th Jun 2009, 23:14
I liked the morrowind method, where you basically stab at the lock until it clicks.

smiley-face-with-tongue-sticking-out.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
14th Jun 2009, 04:22
heh Morrowind's lockpicking looked pretty maniacal. Just imagine your character, crazy faced and stabbing away at a lock time and time again.

MasterTaffer
14th Jun 2009, 04:30
One time it took me four stabs to realize I was trying to pick a lock with a dagger...

jtr7
14th Jun 2009, 04:36
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/Tools.gif
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/Tools2.gif

Imagine having to choose from these when approaching locks in slums vs. mansions.

Nate
14th Jun 2009, 05:04
A pry bar is much faster than using picks!

jtr7
14th Jun 2009, 05:08
The delicate and masterful art of splintering a door frame.

Nate
14th Jun 2009, 06:33
If the pry bar fails, you could always go the stealthy route and use a sledgehammer.

In fact, Garrett could leave his Blackjack behind and take a sledgehammer with him instead. This way Garrett could both open doors AND knock people out with the same tool!

Of course, Garrett would have to bring a towel to clean himself up after the first (and only) time he tries to knock someone out with the sledgehammer.

A good point to the sledgehammer is that it would end the debates about whether or not guards should wake up 20 minutes after you hit them in the head.

jtr7
14th Jun 2009, 07:12
Crunch time!

MasterTaffer
14th Jun 2009, 07:42
I think using the sledge should earn you favor witht he Hammerite faction...

By contrast, to make the Pagans like you you should poke guards with a stick...

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 07:45
nice guys, this made me laugh XD I forgot all the tool rolls it shows, and what he apparently has at his disposal. My talk about having a dagger as a tool, it's already in that roll in the top picture ironically enough... more crude and not as pretty than the one Garrett uses in TDS, but it's there XD

jtr7
14th Jun 2009, 07:56
Lockpick an eye out of some manfool's socket and make the warding sign on the path to the village:
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/Trickster_selfmade.jpg


Anyhoo, instead of the same kind of lock with five visual variations and variations on the picking game, could we instead have several completely different looking locks to show the big difference between slums, date of manufacture, nobility, value, and just different makes and models from different craftsmen, but really only superficially, with nearly the same mechanics behind-the-scenes so it's not really taking much more development time? With Hammer-made doors, old wooden doors, 50-plus-year-old doors, doors with glass (shatter and open from the inside as an idea?), big and heavy wooden doors, it would be more realistic if the locks had the appearance of different styles, age, cost, care or neglect, and however many basic shapes and textures the modelers and texture artists can get away with without burdening the programmers too much.


EDIT: Hypevosa, that's a tool for wedging between a door and the frame.

Hypevosa
14th Jun 2009, 08:07
I thought it looked too blunt to truly be a dagger... :P

jtr7
14th Jun 2009, 08:09
It almost looks like a Stone Age spearhead with a handle.

MasterTaffer
14th Jun 2009, 08:25
I call it "The Builder's Key to the City."

13LACK13ISHOP
14th Jun 2009, 11:49
My vote is the theif 3 system but without the HUD. Just using the sound and you must click when you have got the pick in the right place instead of just waving it around till it works. This system got my vote becouse it involves skill while also immersing you in the game very well at the same time.'

Oh and for advanced locks you could switch picks like in theif 1 and 2 instead of adding more loops to the lock or to put it better when you have done one loop switch to another shaped pick to do the next.That would be cool.The best of 3 games eh.

Flashart
14th Jun 2009, 11:54
What do you think of 4 "grades" of lock?
Chest, Door, Safe, Vault (I also thought 'cuffs, and have Garrett do his own "Houdini", but maybe not)

"Vault" either tumbler or combination or both, the rest "randomized" tumblers. I assume a vault to be a pretty rare encounter, so I'd like it really difficult.

13LACK13ISHOP
14th Jun 2009, 11:59
What do you think of 4 "grades" of lock?
Chest, Door, Safe, Vault (I also thought 'cuffs, and have Garrett do his own "Houdini", but maybe not)

"Vault" either tumbler or combination or both, the rest "randomized" tumblers. I assume a vault to be a pretty rare encounter, so I'd like it really difficult.

As long as it does not have a HUD involved and it makes use of triangle/square toothed lockpicks(switching) I welcome these suggestions to the thief series. It gets old doing the same lock over and over like in bioshock and that system was terrible so I think this is a great idea.

Aristofiles
15th Jun 2009, 16:32
some kind og game. It stress the player of trying to get the dor open fast or get cought

Ardanna
6th May 2010, 02:24
TDS look picking is the best so far of all the games I have played.

Vae
6th May 2010, 03:02
I think this would be better...


I think an audible lockpicking game (no animation) would incorporate a "best of both worlds" experience. Having locks/safes trickier and with more variance in time to unlock them would keep the game tension higher. By making it only with the audible clicks keeps you immersed in the experience at the door/safe etc., being able to look around in the middle of picking instead of being focused on an animation of lockpicking is better overall. If THIEF IV uses traps (which of course they should) this audible minigame could be used to disarm them. This assumes that you are able to detect them first. ;)

Rieknor
6th May 2010, 03:04
What I found particularly disturbing about T3 was that there were 3 to 4 different types of locks in most levels and NO KEYS for most of them. That's ridiculous. How do the guards move around the house?!

Exactly.



Although in TDS the lockpicking was pretty good. But like one guy said one time, the "sweet spots" are allways in the same place, and the lockpicking its really easy.

In real life its not so hard to unlock a door using the lockpics, but it takes a lot of practice.
I'll say you people check on this and see what you can do.

PD. And i'd like to add. The full set of lockpicks has a lot of them, i say you make 2 or 3 couple of lockpics.

Platinumoxicity
6th May 2010, 07:54
A logical lock system:

A building has different access areas for different staff. Only servants have access to storages and maintenance areas. (These locks are simple and easy to pick). So the servants have the "Maintenance key". All locks that can be opened using that key have the exact same structure of tumblers. Guards have access to general areas and armories, and most of the house. (These locks are harder to pick) So the guards have the "House key". All locks that can be opened using that key have the exact same structure of tumblers. Only the owner of the house (the boss) has access to the living quarters. (These locks can't be picked at all) So the resident nobleman is the only one who has the "Bedroom key", and there could be another copy of the key inside the living quarters themselves.

No AI can open a locked door that he doesn't have the key for. But they can knock on the door and shout "It's me, let me through" or they can go get someone who has access. Or just bust through if there's an alert and the door is made of wood.

Keys to special areas can be found on the personnel that frequent in those areas. For example, the guard captain might have a "master guard key" that opens all the areas that guards have access to, but also the guard captain's personal quarters.

For opening locked windows one can find a "window tool" in some maintenance room.

Every chest and box that has a lock on it has a key if the owner of the chest is present. The owner might not have the key with him but the key is somewhere. Picking locks in empty servants quarters with no means of getting caught anyway is not good gameplay, just a waste of time. So why not just use the key on it?

The keys could be added in a keyring like seen in CoSaS, so that the player only needs to select the keyring and use it on a lock. The lockpicks should be selected also, so that you could test whether a door is locked or not. (Before the game takes control away from the player and slides him in front of the door to pick the lock into a lit spot right next to a guard and he gets caught :D )

Hypevosa
6th May 2010, 13:56
I refuse to believe that, at this point in his career, there is a lock that Garrett shouldn't be able to pick that doesn't use a conventional key. Not that there couldn't be insanely difficult locks, but no normal key-in-hole lock should be unpickable at this point (in my opinion). If he hasn't reached Basso's skill level or higher after all this time then he's been a lazy bum and needs to practice more often.

Now, we have magical locks that use runes, mechanist locks that use gears, and all sorts of other kinds of "locks" that we can't reasonably expect to pick with normal lockpick tools. Those I don't expect Garrett to manage to pick.

But after X years of practice through, I'd assume, at least 500 to maybe thousands of locks, of many varying craftsmen and grades of quality... I see no excuse. Lest he lack the proper picks, though I don't see why he wouldn't have those either.

Platinumoxicity
6th May 2010, 14:10
And I thought it was a good gameplay decision to have locks that can't be picked. :( I was disappointed in TDS when I could open any door in 1s with the flawed lockpicking system. It's not about how good Garrett is. It's about what challenges the player should face to keep the game interesting.

There could be locks that have such complicated tumbler systems that Garrett simply can't pick it with his blunt tools. Because you can't fit an infinite number of picks in a small keyhole. Or there could be "combination keys" -like a combination lock, except you need to turn the key in the lock like it's the dial on a lock. You need not only the key but also the code.

Hypevosa
6th May 2010, 14:30
I do understand from a gameplay perspective that some doors you want the player to pick-pocket or find a key for, but there's a difference between the one click not able to pick the lock, and making a lock so hard to pick that you can't do it with your normal methods. TDS did have an inherently flawed system. Imagine a lock where you had to pick it like you do in the Dark Mod, waiting for the sound to end before releasing the key, but also imagine that the lock resets itself if you don't (nearly) instantly switch to the next pick necessary (it could still be either), and that the sounds are sometimes only a second or half a second long.

This provides a crazy challenge for those of us who'd really enjoy one, and reward player skill and reaction time. Any locks not allowed to be picked should be unconventional somehow, and noted somewhere.

A really simple way to prevent lockpicking would be requiring 2 keys to turn simultaneously to disengage the same lock - your picks can only be one place at a time.

This is how I would like it though, it is strictly opinion.

Rieknor
6th May 2010, 22:11
And I thought it was a good gameplay decision to have locks that can't be picked. :( I was disappointed in TDS when I could open any door in 1s with the flawed lockpicking system. It's not about how good Garrett is. It's about what challenges the player should face to keep the game interesting.

There could be locks that have such complicated tumbler systems that Garrett simply can't pick it with his blunt tools. Because you can't fit an infinite number of picks in a small keyhole. Or there could be "combination keys" -like a combination lock, except you need to turn the key in the lock like it's the dial on a lock. You need not only the key but also the code.

agree

With this the game will be more dificult. And more real, becouse if you have to get inside a room of a lord or something i think it will be much harder than the cleaning room.
(in real life there are some kind of lock anti-lockpicks)

xDarknessFallsx
6th May 2010, 22:36
As long as I can lockpick the same way as I could in T1/T2, I'm fine. I'm open to whatever, but I'd like T2 to be there for when either the new lockpicking gets boring to do, or it's no fun to begin with. I would likely try any new system for my first playthrough, but after that it's likely I won't want to be bothered by it. Too much work... I'd rather just hold a button and watch like T2. Oh, and I don't want any thinking or timing involved in the T2 version either. Really, it's perfect for me as is and I don't want added complexity for lockpicking. I play the game for all the other reasons; not to mess with an interactive lockpicking minigame (for lack of better word)

Nephthys
6th May 2010, 22:48
well we can always compare lockpicking in Thief to hacking in Bioshock.

Atleast Thief didn't have Pipe Dream.

jtr7
6th May 2010, 23:37
And let's hope we never have God of War 3 type puzzles. Oog.

BigCole
12th May 2010, 08:33
The TDS system was so easy I could get doors open in no time and the suspense of the previous games was gone. That is why the TDS system is inferior and that's why it should be changed.



I refuse to believe that you were able to plop in TDS, start the game for the first time and immediately begin picking locks in seconds. It takes time to not only memorize where the sweet spots are, but know where they are for which kind of lock. Even if you have the sweet spots completely memorized and move the mouse to the EXACT location of those sweet spots, on the hardest lock you are going to be exposed for at least 4 seconds.

Keeper_Riff
12th May 2010, 09:00
Even if you have the sweet spots completely memorized and move the mouse to the EXACT location of those sweet spotsNo need to memorize anything. Just hit W,A,S,D and Attack button as fast as possible.

xDarknessFallsx
12th May 2010, 15:48
I just move my mouse around and press the attack button as fast as I can. I'll try the WASD method to see if that's even faster if I ever play TDS again...

Fatherwoodsie
12th May 2010, 17:40
i love the fact that there were some doors that were absolutely unable to be picked or opened with a key. even if you know.......even if the devs told you that "there is no way this door can be opened, we made it so it cant be opened", id still be trying my damndest to get that door open. just that feeling of, well what if i try this? what if i can somehow glitch it open? its things like that that keep me going back to the original T1 and T2

esme
12th May 2010, 19:01
did anyone try blowing doors open with a mine in TDS ?

I'm pretty sure I never tried that

Hypevosa
12th May 2010, 19:36
did anyone try blowing doors open with a mine in TDS ?

I'm pretty sure I never tried that

MINI SUNBURST DEVICE!

*cough* Umm... I mean quietly picking the lock?

:D

I hope they don't but if they keep the same lockpicking system as in TDS, they should at least make it so that if you try to force the lock (WASD attack key rapidly) that you actually break the tumblers and can't open the door quietly anymore.

Rieknor
13th May 2010, 19:52
MINI SUNBURST DEVICE!

*cough* Umm... I mean quietly picking the lock?

:D

I hope they don't but if they keep the same lockpicking system as in TDS, they should at least make it so that if you try to force the lock (WASD attack key rapidly) that you actually break the tumblers and can't open the door quietly anymore.

Interesting, like it.

esme
14th May 2010, 08:42
MINI SUNBURST DEVICE!

*cough* Umm... I mean quietly picking the lock?

:D

I hope they don't but if they keep the same lockpicking system as in TDS, they should at least make it so that if you try to force the lock (WASD attack key rapidly) that you actually break the tumblers and can't open the door quietly anymore.

you'd need some warning that this was going to happen but otherwise yeah

Hypevosa
14th May 2010, 12:21
*Garrett removes the picks from the lock for a second*

"I don't like the sound of that... if I'm not careful I won't be getting through this door quietly..."

esme
14th May 2010, 14:00
however if you hit wasd too quickly it will be

"I don't like the sound of tha .... bugger"

I did mean a warning somewhere else in a readable like


Received with thanks, the sum of 150gp, for upgrading locks to patented glasslock anti lockpick mechanism.

NB if the wrong key is used or should a burglar use a lockpick too forcefully on these locks then glass tumblers within the lock will break and the lock will need replacing before the door can be opened, proper use of the correct key is advised, please ensure your guard patrols are frequent enough to detect any burglars attempting to pick the lock

Scroggitt and Legg assume no responsibility for losses due to theft.

Messrs Scroggitt and Legg, locksmiths to nobility

Yaphy
15th May 2010, 19:55
If it's done the TDS way I want a really hard lock somewhere that you shouldn't be able to unlock if you don't pick it in a VERY long time. Many minutes. It shouldn't be 100% neccesary to get trough the door though, Just much loot and/or gear behind the door. It could be like 32 different angles and you need to find the correct sweetspot about 20 times. All this while guards walk around.

:D Awesome! it's not fun if it happens many times in the game. But there could be this special door on this special level. It should be clearly visible and not just a regular wooden or irondoor. If you play at the highest diffculty it could be a must to open the door.

Rieknor
15th May 2010, 21:05
If it's done the TDS way I want a really hard lock somewhere that you shouldn't be able to unlock if you don't pick it in a VERY long time. Many minutes. It shouldn't be 100% neccesary to get trough the door though, Just much loot and/or gear behind the door. It could be like 32 different angles and you need to find the correct sweetspot about 20 times. All this while guards walk around.

:D Awesome! it's not fun if it happens many times in the game. But there could be this special door on this special level. It should be clearly visible and not just a regular wooden or irondoor. If you play at the highest diffculty it could be a must to open the door.

I like this, but i whould like if more ideas are imployed, not just this one, becouse there are some really good ideas.

Flashart
16th May 2010, 08:49
When I started this thread I wasn't sure which way it was going to side with. Personally, I like the minigame, however I concede that TDS only got it half right, but if it was any more difficult it could be frustrating to have it on every lock.
So howabout, hard lockpicking minigame on safes only?
Medium lockpicking on external doors? "Timed" animation on internal doors, which can be "re-locked"?
It's a bit of a mix but is it the best of both worlds?

Rieknor
16th May 2010, 12:56
When I started this thread I wasn't sure which way it was going to side with. Personally, I like the minigame, however I concede that TDS only got it half right, but if it was any more difficult it could be frustrating to have it on every lock.
So howabout, hard lockpicking minigame on safes only?
Medium lockpicking on external doors? "Timed" animation on internal doors, which can be "re-locked"?
It's a bit of a mix but is it the best of both worlds?

In TDS the locks are insanelly easy to lockpick, i think a little bit hard making the "sweet spot" smaller and havin more positiones it will make it harder. And this doesnt mean it has to take more time.

Fatherwoodsie
17th May 2010, 17:20
personally i dont think too much time should be spent lock picking. i know its a vital part of thieving in both the game and real world though.

it should be keys only. the gaurds will have keys on their belt, and there will keys inside rooms and offices which you have to open. so in those rooms can be more keys to other rooms. you should have to make copies of keys and replace the original ones. lockpicking is too easy to sneak in a castle and the very first room can be lockpicked, when i think you should have to explore and find the right key for it instead.

on the other hand, lockpicking is an essential part of the game, but i dont want it to take up too much time. something similar to what flashart said, maybe just have to pick the chests and safes, and the doors will be key entry only

esme
17th May 2010, 17:46
well I know everyone has an opinion but I'm afraid this one isn't gladdening my heart

Fatherwoodsie
17th May 2010, 18:39
i liked in the first two games where you try a lock with a pick and you can tell just by the first initial sound if its going to work or not.

Rieknor
18th May 2010, 01:04
personally i dont think too much time should be spent lock picking. i know its a vital part of thieving in both the game and real world though.

it should be keys only. the gaurds will have keys on their belt, and there will keys inside rooms and offices which you have to open. so in those rooms can be more keys to other rooms. you should have to make copies of keys and replace the original ones. lockpicking is too easy to sneak in a castle and the very first room can be lockpicked, when i think you should have to explore and find the right key for it instead.

on the other hand, lockpicking is an essential part of the game, but i dont want it to take up too much time. something similar to what flashart said, maybe just have to pick the chests and safes, and the doors will be key entry only

Do you remember the mission "undercover" in TDP?? When you have to open the kitchen door theres a guard patroling arround you.
If a guard its close to you when yo try to lockpick its not that easy.


(other example) The Kurshok Citadel, in the room with the crown there are two monster patroling there and there are also 2 chest to lockpick, 1 of those two is a little hard to lockpic with these guards.

jtr7
18th May 2010, 01:33
How about Garrett getting actual locksmithing tools, and ditch the picks? :p
His own abilities and quality of tools have increased with each game, and whether it is a fictional consequence of Garrett's greater access to more places or not, the locks have gotten more complicated, so I've always felt T4 should keep up the tradition and have Garrett better than ever at bypassing locks, both in skill and in quality of tools, but with a concurrent increase in lock technology trying to thwart the likes of him.


Heh. I once locked myself out of the house and called a locksmith. She had a professional tool for "bumping" the lock. It wasn't the filed blank of the amateur, but looked like a funny screwdriver with a fat handle. She carefully inserted it, smacked the back-end extra loud in a show-off manner, looked at me as she turned the handle and unlocked the door just like that. $50 dollars, please. (Why does that sound suggestive?)

Interesting ad for a locksmithing school:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klANzN_0-Ys

Watch Garrett at work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcsDcqd036k&feature=PlayList&p=13F76CC8C6AE05B7&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=6

xDarknessFallsx
18th May 2010, 04:51
Two picks is good for me. No more, no less.

jtr7
18th May 2010, 04:55
Hahahahaha! One for each nostril...

esme
18th May 2010, 14:02
How about Garrett getting actual locksmithing tools, and ditch the picks? :p
His own abilities and quality of tools have increased with each game, and whether it is a fictional consequence of Garrett's greater access to more places or not, the locks have gotten more complicated, so I've always felt T4 should keep up the tradition and have Garrett better than ever at bypassing locks, both in skill and in quality of tools, but with a concurrent increase in lock technology trying to thwart the likes of him.


Heh. I once locked myself out of the house and called a locksmith. She had a professional tool for "bumping" the lock. It wasn't the filed blank of the amateur, but looked like a funny screwdriver with a fat handle. She carefully inserted it, smacked the back-end extra loud in a show-off manner, looked at me as she turned the handle and unlocked the door just like that. $50 dollars, please. (Why does that sound suggestive?)

Interesting ad for a locksmithing school:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klANzN_0-Ys

Watch Garrett at work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcsDcqd036k&feature=PlayList&p=13F76CC8C6AE05B7&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=6
as I remember to make a bumping tool, take a normal key, file off all the teeth except for one tooth at the end, insert it into the lock and retract it one notch, apply pressure to turn the key with one hand and smack it into the lock with the other, this causes the split tumblers inside the lock to move up and down and with the turning pressure on the lock the splits tend to align with the barrel edge allowing you to turn the barrel and unlock the door, takes a bit of practice and only works on yale locks

thief got me interested in lockpicking so I looked it up :o

I did manage to pick a small yale lock with a broken paperclip using the scrubbing method once, use one piece to try and turn the barrel and the other piece to jiggle the tumblers up and down, it was my desk drawer lock, idle hands and all that :o

jtr7
18th May 2010, 23:21
Wicked! :cool:

esme
19th May 2010, 10:45
basic yale locks aren't very secure locks, criminals already know this, but the people with the locks don't

lock bumping (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwTVBWCijEQ)

lock scrubbing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2DxheDJSNQ)

apologies for the soundtrack

SeaBisKit
20th May 2010, 13:30
Fallout 3 Won Game of the year... and everyone loved it... not because it was a great game... but because it had a great lock-picking Mini game... ;)

- Sea

Davehall380
20th May 2010, 16:58
I require a lock pick for every door in the game. Or is that a key? . . .

DrunkenGuard
23rd Dec 2012, 14:06
The system in TDS was easy... but also innovative and new back then......... and Skyrim totally copied it but made it more challenging.

I was just wondering , what viable alternatives are there to that 2 pick and rotate system?

I wondered if the best locks should have several different processes in order to sucessfully pick them? (different kinds of tumblers and discs)

Should it done on sound alone?

Should we be able to see the intricate inner-workings of the locks , in a cut-away X ray style view ?

Should there be different kinds of more expensive and sophisticated picks specifically designed for picking different types of lock?

What do you think? How could lock picking be made challenging and interesting and fun and taken to the next level?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
23rd Dec 2012, 15:29
We already have this discussion:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88893


Mods will merge at some point. :thumb:

DrunkenGuard
23rd Dec 2012, 15:47
We already have this discussion:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88893


Mods will merge at some point. :thumb:

Ok, no worries.

Tryst
23rd Dec 2012, 16:56
We already have this discussion:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88893


Mods will merge at some point. :thumb:
The message board has been going so long that we've already had MOST discussions that new people can think of. It's one of the reasons that regulars here are getting bored.

DrunkenGuard
23rd Dec 2012, 17:56
The message board has been going so long that we've already had MOST discussions that new people can think of. It's one of the reasons that regulars here are getting bored.

Oh well Im a new poster.... but having been reading this forum for literally years. I had a very vague memory of this topic being discussed.... but it seems like it was AGES back. Or perhaps thats just all the alcohol and drugs ravaging my poor mind ;)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
23rd Dec 2012, 17:58
The message board has been going so long that we've already had MOST discussions that new people can think of....

True, nobody said otherwise. My post was for informative reasons. :)

Kyle Hyde
5th Mar 2013, 18:30
Lock picking still in the game woohoo.

I hope you can look around while lock picking!
Not a mini game extra screen.

Platinumoxicity
5th Mar 2013, 18:37
I hope you can look around while lock picking!
Not a mini game extra screen.

Apparently, nope. There's a lockpicking minigame mode that removes you from the dynamic immersive game experience and puts you into a separate lockpicking screen that switches standard game control scheme to lockpicking minigame control scheme. Why else would there be a screenshot of exactly that? Or... something that looks exactly like that.

I just hope that it doesn't use the movement keys, because then it would be possible to program the system to allow players to move away and leave the mode on the fly without interrupting the immersive experience completely. So you wouldn't get locked into a separate game mode which requires you to explicitly exit it to get back into the game, but instead you would still have the same movement controls as in the normal game, and all you'd need to do to stop picking the lock would be to move away.

Jace_Auditore
5th Mar 2013, 18:40
Apparently, nope. There's a lockpicking minigame mode that removes you from the dynamic immersive game experience and puts you into a separate lockpicking screen that switches standard game control scheme to lockpicking minigame control scheme. Why else would there be a screenshot of exactly that? Or... something that looks exactly like that.

I just hope that it doesn't use the movement keys, because then it would be possible to program the system to allow players to move away and leave the mode on the fly without interrupting the immersive experience completely. So you wouldn't get locked into a separate game mode which requires you to explicitly exit it to get back into the game, but instead you would still have the same movement controls as in the normal game, and all you'd need to do to stop picking the lock would be to move away.

From the screenshots that minigame looked very "old-school Splinter Cell",wich happens to be one of my favourite lockpicking minigames.I hope the minigame doesnt stop time until you finish tough,that would take the tension out of it.

Platinumoxicity
5th Mar 2013, 18:46
From the screenshots that minigame looked very "old-school Splinter Cell",wich happens to be one of my favourite lockpicking minigames.I hope the minigame doesnt stop time until you finish tough,that would take the tension out of it.

I don't hate a system like this, if it's not as interruptive as in Bethesda's games.

In Chaos Theory, the game does repurpose your controls for the minigame, but you can actually look around with complete freedom, though with slightly blurred vision because you're focusing on the task at hand. But on the PC, the way the lockpicking works is kinda stupid. Mash your movement keys until you find the right one, then tap it repeatedly until the pin automatically moves to the right height. It seems like a system that is unnecessarily simple to be a separate minigame screen, but just an unnecessarily complex version of the simple Thief 1 lockpicking that was only supposed to waste time and allow patrolling guards to catch you. Am I right in assuming that the console version of Splinter Cell lockpicking is more involved than repeatedly tapping a key?

The way you need to find the correct keyboard key to move the pins in that game is basically just a different way of "switching between sharp-toothed and flat-toothed pick" in TDP. The way it opens a separate lockpicking screen is unnecessary, when the system itself is that simple.

AlexOfSpades
5th Mar 2013, 18:47
I believe that the lockpicking system will probably be vastly superior to the previous installment's systems. Lockpicking in TDP/TMA was terrible. My favorite system is the one from Skyrim (the one from Fallout 3 but improved), and i'd love if the new Thief came up with something similar.

Jace_Auditore
5th Mar 2013, 18:57
Am I right in assuming that the console version of Splinter Cell lockpicking is more involved than repeatedly tapping a key?


Yep,you have to find the sweet spot with the analogue stick,and the sweet spot location is very specific.If you try to rush through the minigame,you will fail quite a lot.

Jerion
5th Mar 2013, 18:59
Yep,you have to find the sweet spot with the analogue stick,and the sweet spot location is very specific.If you try to rush through the minigame,you will fail quite a lot.

I haven't really played the SC games to any great extent, but this seems to be how I would have guessed it would differ. Analog sticks are much more fluid than keys (just like a mouse), and a minigame like the one described would really be at home there.

Platinumoxicity
5th Mar 2013, 19:17
Yep,you have to find the sweet spot with the analogue stick,and the sweet spot location is very specific.If you try to rush through the minigame,you will fail quite a lot.

The sad thing about this is that if the logic would be somehow replicated on a PC port without inventing an entirely different minigame, it would be very unintuitive and detached from the main game experience. :( I'm guessing that's why the PC Splinter Cells did not directly try to replicate it. -Which actually makes sense in the context of Ubisoft, because back then Ubisoft actually didn't hate its customers and everything related to PC.

shmouver
5th Mar 2013, 21:44
Lock-picking should be a playable part of the game of course. But no time penalty, the only thing you should worry about is being caught doing it.

Platinumoxicity
5th Mar 2013, 23:43
One important thing about lockpicking is that there's a serious issue in TDS that should not be replicated in Thief 4. You need to be able to check if a door is locked, before the game slides you out of your hiding place and in front of the door, locking your character in position in the lockpicking mode.

In TDS you don't select lockpicks and pick the locks with them. You don't select keys and open doors with them. You guess with 100% success rate whether a key is right, the door is open or locked. Except that the game doesn't tell you the right answer. Instead it acts upon it right away without asking for permission.

Bottom line, let players try to open the locked door. Don't just auto-unlock it with a key, or automatically go into lockpicking mode as if you already know it's locked. -Oh but there aren't enough buttons in a console controller. We can't have selection of usable items, we need to use contextual actions filed under a single action key. Well, I guess console players will have to just deal with it then. The PC has lots of extra keys for binding unambiguous non-contextual actions.

Caduca
6th Mar 2013, 00:14
um guys you do know its already been shown that lock-picking looks like this:


http://babysoftmurderhands.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/3T0wboS-1024x520.jpg


So a miniigame-esque style

brucktoo
6th Mar 2013, 16:25
My immediate thoughts are that I just want an animation like Thief 2. Garrett is a highly skilled expert. All it should take is putting lockpicks in hand and a varying amount of time depending on difficulty, so that timing may come into place if a guard is on a timed patrol.

Edit* now that I have read posts and seen screenshots etc. I really don't like this. I just don't see how they can put that in and make it work. I can't ever remember playing a fun lockpicking mini game. Lockpicking is essential to who Garrett is. It would be stupid to have Garrett fail a blackjack attack (as long as you were undetected, and npc didn't have helmet etc.) or have to do some QTE. Similarly to pickpocket I shouldn't need a slowdown time mode to press a certain button or whatever. He should just do it whether it is hitting a guy on the head, pickpocketing or lockpicking. These are things Garrett has mastered already. Its not like Morrowind missing sword swings due to lack of skill.

xDarknessFallsx
15th Mar 2013, 21:01
The lockpicking looks a lot like Risen 2's:
http://www.bigbadbob113.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Risen-2-lockpick.jpg
(Risen 2's lockpicking)

I just hope there's an option to have T1/T2 style lockpicking. I'm not a big fan of lockpicking puzzles. They're fine for a while, but then get tiresome/boring to deal with.

MasterTaffer
15th Mar 2013, 21:05
The lockpicking looks a lot like Risen 2's:
http://www.bigbadbob113.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Risen-2-lockpick.jpg
(Risen 2's lockpicking)

I just hope there's an option to have T1/T2 style lockpicking. I'm not a big fan of lockpicking puzzles. They're fine for a while, but then get tiresome/boring to deal with.

I sincerely dobut they will include T1/T2's lockpicking.

In fact, I'd be appauled if they did. In 1998 it was fine, but the realities of the system is it is simply the player looking at a door or chest and holding down a button. That is supremely tedious for me.

Blue Sky
15th Mar 2013, 21:05
I just hope there's an option to have T1/T2 style lockpicking. I'm not a big fan of lockpicking puzzles. They're fine for a while, but then get tiresome/boring to deal with.

Find the key instead, then :D

Hecateus
15th Mar 2013, 21:18
It's spelled 'appalled'.

Anywho I found the t 1&2 method to be more pleasing than the TES4: Oblivion method....but at least I could pick the lock in that game...with my eyes closed. Hopefully we can succesfully pick locks in the new Thief...with our eyes closed...should we so desire. (maybe make it an option in the controls. ...jk)

MasterTaffer
15th Mar 2013, 21:27
It's spelled 'appalled'.

Ah, right. Thanks.

Elsunny
15th Mar 2013, 21:32
It's spelled 'joke'.

:P

Hecateus
15th Mar 2013, 21:43
Currently my favorite lock picking method is to get the Bear Beasts in Etrian Oddessy IV to bash down the fallen trees which block paths. Get the marks to open the doors for us. =)

I do get the impression from the GI article that many alternative routes and method style puzzles abound. YAY Oblivion was Tedium wrt entry methods. boo!

NIB
15th Mar 2013, 22:58
I really like the lockpicking in "the dark mod". In TDS it also wasnt too bad. I just dont like the idea of entering a minigame whenever you pick a lock.

anduiosif
15th Mar 2013, 23:28
I think that TDS lockpicking was great. I can only remeber the chills i got when i was picking a lock in shalebridge... a minigame that does not eject you from your world!

Platinumoxicity
15th Mar 2013, 23:44
I think that TDS lockpicking was great. a minigame that does not eject you from your world!

I think it does. Can you simply turn and look around? Can you use the movement buttons to quickly move away? No you can't. Because the game has changed into a different mode where you no longer control your character's movement, but just the lockpicking. Even though I would agree that the Thief 1 lockpicking is just a time delay with no application of skill involved, the fact that the game does not reassign any of the controls makes it better.

What about a lockpicking system that does not reassing the mouse, or the movement keys? A system that only uses keys that are not the primary, most important keys in the game? Why can't it use the attack, walk, or cycle items keys? If the minigame would utilize those keys instead, it would not reassign your basic movement controls and you would still have full control over the basic functions of the game character. You don't really need the attack key or item cycling keys while you're busy lockpicking. But you do need movement and look controls just in case you need to check your surroundings or get away quickly. I think it's very unimmersive that you must "escape the lockpicking mode" by pressing a certain key so that you get back your control over your character. Whenever there are these modes ingame that lock you in place, you just controlling a puppet. You are not being the character.

Edit: If that's too much to ask for, how about a minigame where you need to hold the use key to stay in the lockpicking mode?

xDarknessFallsx
15th Mar 2013, 23:52
I sincerely dobut they will include T1/T2's lockpicking.

In fact, I'd be appauled if they did. In 1998 it was fine, but the realities of the system is it is simply the player looking at a door or chest and holding down a button. That is supremely tedious for me.
You would actually be appalled if they included the 'option' for people to use the original, foundational T1/T2 lockpicking style? Wow, such strong words for such a little thing ;)

Well, how's this: I would be appalled if they didn't include the option to do so :) I like the macro approach to lockpicking. It's not as tedious for me as wiggling the mouse around and clicking it a bunch of times. It's an area of the game to which I just don't need a micro-management approach.

TDM's was a cool solution and it's interesting, but I even got bored/tired of that after a while. There's just something about manually fiddling with locks in video games that doesn't appeal to me for some reason.

I'm sad that you'd be appalled with the option for T1/T2 style lockpicking... something for which there is a valid reason to include and that you would never have to use... yet you (I think?) tell people they should just not use Focus if they don't like it. Perhaps I should say, "Just don't use T1/T2 style if you don't like it" :)

MasterTaffer
16th Mar 2013, 00:03
You would actually be appalled if they included the 'option' for people to use the original, foundational T1/T2 lockpicking style? Wow, such strong words for such a little thing ;)

Well, how's this: I would be appalled if they didn't include the option to do so :) I like the macro approach to lockpicking. It's not as tedious for me as wiggling the mouse around and clicking it a bunch of times. It's an area of the game to which I just don't need a micro-management approach.

TDM's was a cool solution and it's interesting, but I even got bored/tired of that after a while. There's just something about manually fiddling with locks in video games that doesn't appeal to me for some reason.

I'm sad that you'd be appalled with the option for T1/T2 style lockpicking... something for which there is a valid reason to include and that you would never have to use... yet you (I think?) tell people they should just not use Focus if they don't like it. Perhaps I should say, "Just don't use T1/T2 style if you don't like it" :)

I don't tell people not to use Focus if they don't like it. I tell people to wait and see the mechanic in action before jumping to a conclusion on its overall effect on gameplay. If I said that in the past then I was wrong when I said it.

I would be appaled from a game design perspective if they thought adding the T1/T2 mechanics is good at all. It's literally just holding down a button and waiting; there are no "wiggleing the mouse" functionality that makes it go fast in the least. Every lock has a set speed at which it cna be picked. As I said, the mechanic worked at the time but from an interactive game design perspective it's atrocious by today's standards. If another game added some sort of functionality where you simply just hold a button while standing still and waiting, I would consider it atrocious as well. Hitman used a similar method going as far forward as 2006, and it was a sticking point for me when it became obvious there were more interactive examples of lockpicking that actually provided control and feedback to the player. Splinter Cell was the first series I remember playing with an actual lockpicking mechanic, and that was 2002.

It's an interactive medium, and Thief 1 and 2's lockpicking is hardly what I would call interactive. So once again, while it worked 15 years ago it would be awful now. That would be a lazy design choice in my eyes.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
16th Mar 2013, 01:38
I love the tension that you feel with having to lock-pick in an area where guards patrol.
Hope EM get this right.

xDarknessFallsx
16th Mar 2013, 02:02
I don't tell people not to use Focus if they don't like it. I tell people to wait and see the mechanic in action before jumping to a conclusion on its overall effect on gameplay. If I said that in the past then I was wrong when I said it.
No, you're probably right. I didn't have a chance to research before.


As I said, the mechanic worked at the time but from an interactive game design perspective it's atrocious by today's standards
Nothing is atrocious by today's gaming standards. Today's standards are often the epitome of atrocious, imo. Do you think T1/T2 lockpicking interactivity is worse then QTEs and 'Press [X] to take cover,' interactivity standards of today? I don't.

MasterTaffer
16th Mar 2013, 02:05
Nothing is atrocious by today's gaming standards. Today's standards are often the epitome of atrocious, imo. Do you think T1/T2 lockpicking interactivity is worse then QTEs and 'Press [X] to take cover,' interactivity standards of today?

It depends on how the two examples you brought up are executed. I have zero issues with cover based mechanics when executed well. Quick time events can be executed well, but when they aren't it's particularly bad.


Now, if T1/T2 instead said, "Press [X] to lockpick" and then proceeded to completely automate the lockpicking process and prevent you from halting the lockpicking, or moving away or looking around, then that would be terrible. Yet, that sounds like something today's games would do.

I fail to see how you view "Hold X to Lockpick" is significantly better than "Press X to Lockpick". In essence, that's what Thief 1 and 2's lockpicking systems amounted to.

xDarknessFallsx
16th Mar 2013, 02:06
Now, if T1/T2 instead said, "Press [X] to lockpick" and then proceeded to completely automate the lockpicking process, or maybe just did it instantaneously (no holding of button needed; no suspense), then that would be terrible. Yet, that sounds like something today's games would do.

Hecateus
16th Mar 2013, 04:40
IIRC, T1/T2 lockpicking had the problem of selecting the proper lockpick; then T3 fiddling to find the sweetspots. It wasn't -simply- press [x]...but not by much.

xDarknessFallsx
16th Mar 2013, 05:23
That 'not by much' for T1/T2 was enough for me to enjoy lockpicking in T1/T2 I get my Thief kicks from things other than lockpicking mini-game puzzles where you jiggle the mouse and try to time button presses or locate the sweet spots.

EM - Just let me press and hold the mouse button for a random or planned duration, switch picks at times, and then move on with my taffing life. I don't need a gamey, carpal-tunnel inspiring puzzle for this mundane task. I get my lockpicking thrills from the tension of not knowing how long it will take to pick the lock; not from manually toying with the tumblers in the lock ad nauseum through the whole game.

It can't be that hard to code T1/T2 style. Assign values corresponding to the complexity rating of each encountered lock. (You'll have to know the complexity for your mini-game anyways.). The higher the value, the longer the duration we have to hold the T1/T2 style lockpick in the lock and the greater the chance that both lockpicks will need to be used on it. Make 3-D objects (i.e., Maya, 3D Studio Max) of the lockpicks for Garrett to hold out toward or into the lock if that fits your presentation style (or just make it like T1/T2 and don't show hands), add the option in the menu, test a little but have confidence in your abilities, and voila.

xAcerbusx
16th Mar 2013, 06:28
I think it does. Can you simply turn and look around? Can you use the movement buttons to quickly move away? No you can't.

Yes and yes.
Hold down Ctrl and you can turn your head. Something you could never do in Thief 1 or 2.
Push space and you're instantly ejected and can move away.

Thief 1 and 2's lockpicking is absolute trash.
I was playing Casing/Masks last night. There was a guard standing right in front of the door... the doorknob was on the opposite end of the door, a solid 4-5 feet away from my character... and I was still able to pick the door open... behind his back... and from five feet away.

That's much more ludicrous than whatever utterly meaningless 'Derp it isn't immersive' essayist dreck the TTLG taffers use to justify their frothing hatred for Deadly Shadows.

Have you ever picked a lock? You shouldn't be able to dart away at will. It's a little more involved than 'stand within 5 yards of a door and hold a button down'.

Chilliwack
16th Mar 2013, 07:05
Yes and yes.
Hold down Ctrl and you can turn your head. Something you could never do in Thief 1 or 2.
Push space and you're instantly ejected and can move away.

Thief 1 and 2's lockpicking is absolute trash.
I was playing Casing/Masks last night. There was a guard standing right in front of the door... the doorknob was on the opposite end of the door, a solid 4-5 feet away from my character... and I was still able to pick the door open... behind his back... and from five feet away.

That's much more ludicrous than whatever utterly meaningless 'Derp it isn't immersive' essayist dreck the TTLG taffers use to justify their frothing hatred for Deadly Shadows.

Have you ever picked a lock? You shouldn't be able to dart away at will. It's a little more involved than 'stand within 5 yards of a door and hold a button down'.

The lockpicking was more about suspense of being caught while doing it, than it was about having the player manually mess with the mechanism.

Of course, that "Masks" mission proved that there really wasn't any suspense involved, since a guard couldn't hear it from two feet away. So yeah, I'm in favor of changing up the lockpicking system. I actually kinda like the TDS lockpicking, because as you played, you eventually figured out how to search for the sweet spots, just like a master thief.

Platinumoxicity
16th Mar 2013, 08:32
Yes and yes.
Hold down Ctrl and you can turn your head. Something you could never do in Thief 1 or 2.
Push space and you're instantly ejected and can move away.

Thief 1 and 2's lockpicking is absolute trash.
I was playing Casing/Masks last night. There was a guard standing right in front of the door... the doorknob was on the opposite end of the door, a solid 4-5 feet away from my character... and I was still able to pick the door open... behind his back... and from five feet away.

That's much more ludicrous than whatever utterly meaningless 'Derp it isn't immersive' essayist dreck the TTLG taffers use to justify their frothing hatred for Deadly Shadows.

Have you ever picked a lock? You shouldn't be able to dart away at will. It's a little more involved than 'stand within 5 yards of a door and hold a button down'.

It's not so much about the realism of the lockpicking itself, but about the realism of being in control of the character. How would you like if when talking on the phone, your nose itches and you attempt to lift your left arm to scratch it, but instead your right foot moves? When you answered the phone, you entered a different control mode, and you reassigned the different nerve endings to redirect nerve impulses to different muscle groups.

So although I agree that being able to pick a lock when leaning your giraffe neck from around the corned between the legs of a guard is really stupid, the biggest problem I have with a minigame is the fact that Garrett's legs and head no longer respond when I give them orders. Even though there still are a lot of different buttons to choose from for the use of the minigame.

Hamadriyad
16th Mar 2013, 11:55
EM - Just let me press and hold the mouse button for a random or planned duration, switch picks at times, and then move on with my taffing life. I don't need a gamey, carpal-tunnel inspiring puzzle for this mundane task. I get my lockpicking thrills from the tension of not knowing how long it will take to pick the lock; not from manually toying with the tumblers in the lock ad nauseum through the whole game.


:thumb: I never felt tension in TDS lockpicking. In T1/T2 you can never know which lock pick you have to start with, or how many times you have to change them, how long it takes etc. In TDS you immediately know when you see start the mini game, funny at first, then boring.
And the fact that we can pick all locks is bad either. In T1/T2 you never know, and that brings tension. "Can I pick that lock? Yay!" or "damn, I need a key, where is it?"

xDarknessFallsx
16th Mar 2013, 17:41
Exactly! And I seem to remember there were a few times in T2 where guards would hear your lockpicking and at least say something to recognize that, maybe even sometimes investigate? I'd be more than okay (actually happy) if T4 raised the bar and made guards more sensitive to the sounds of lockpicking, causing you to lean in and listen through a door first before lockpicking or opening the door (a tactic that I never see anyone use in "Let's Play Thief" videos, even though the feature is there).

I hope this 'listen through doors' feature is implemented in T4 and encourages us to use it more than in T2. Doors swinging open in front of a guards should usually not be tolerated by guards, nor should lockpicking sounds.

When I first started playing Thief (T2), when I didn't know how good or sensitive the AI was, I listened through doors quite a bit before opening a door. The tension was palpable, as I'd hear the footsteps move across the floor; and I'd back away from the door and hide when the guard was close in his pacing route, for fear he'd open it and be in my face.

These feelings of tension are what I hope T4 is able to bring back/achieve. T2, after learning everything, is a bit easy (not much tension for me). I've learned there's no real need to lean into doors to listen.

PS, as xAcerx was maybe not understanding me. I just want the actual mechanic of holding the mouse button down to lockpick back as an option. That's all I was referring to. I'm not saying I want the frob distance to remain unrealistic or the guards not to hear. Yeah, moments like that in Masks/Casing shouldn't be possible, imo.

Hecateus
16th Mar 2013, 19:30
Dishonored gave Corvo the ability to look through the keyholes. Creepiest thing in the game is when a guard was peeping through a keyhole at the same time as me. Oddly he did not react...though I needed fresh undies.

Nephthys
16th Mar 2013, 19:38
Dishonored gave Corvo the ability to look through the keyholes. Creepiest thing in the game is when a guard was peeping through a keyhole at the same time as me. Oddly he did not react...though I needed fresh undies.

that was a neat mechanic, though totally useless once you have Dark Vision. A good example of how I feel like Dishonored was two games smashed together. Two very different ways to observe the environment, and once you chose one, you completely abandoned the other.

Kazzic
17th Mar 2013, 01:28
Dishonored gave Corvo the ability to look through the keyholes. Creepiest thing in the game is when a guard was peeping through a keyhole at the same time as me. Oddly he did not react...though I needed fresh undies.

Ah, same thing happened to me. I think I bolted down a hall and blinked onto a bookcase. I also had a tendency to open doors when I meant to just look. First play through I had only upgraded blink due to misreading the achievement so no Dark Vision shenanigans.

Listening to doors or peeking into locks would be a useful feature to have back. Scouting orbs also.

Hamadriyad
17th Mar 2013, 10:45
... And I seem to remember there were a few times in T2 where guards would hear your lockpicking and at least say something to recognize that, maybe even sometimes investigate?
I remember something like that too.

I'd be more than okay (actually happy) if T4 raised the bar and made guards more sensitive to the sounds of lockpicking, causing you to lean in and listen through a door first before lockpicking or opening the door (a tactic that I never see anyone use in "Let's Play Thief" videos, even though the feature is there).
I hope this 'listen through doors' feature is implemented in T4 and encourages us to use it more than in T2. Doors swinging open in front of a guards should usually not be tolerated by guards, nor should lockpicking sounds.

Completely agreed.


When I first started playing Thief (T2), when I didn't know how good or sensitive the AI was, I listened through doors quite a bit before opening a door. The tension was palpable, as I'd hear the footsteps move across the floor; and I'd back away from the door and hide when the guard was close in his pacing route, for fear he'd open it and be in my face.
These feelings of tension are what I hope T4 is able to bring back/achieve. T2, after learning everything, is a bit easy (not much tension for me). I've learned there's no real need to lean into doors to listen.

I think it would be great If we really need to listen to doors, and maybe look the other side through key holes. And it would be good If they give us an option to open doors slowly.
About the lockpicking, there was another thing TDS did, and killed all the tension. Fast picking option! Completely nonsense! But I used it a lot, because minigame was so boring. Maybe they knew the minigame will be boring and they gave us that option. :)
(though I admit, goldsmith's chest gave me some headache.)

Nephthys
17th Mar 2013, 20:25
Completely nonsense! But I used it a lot, because minigame was so boring. Maybe they knew the minigame will be boring and they gave us that option. :)
(though I admit, goldsmith's chest gave me some headache.)

visually I found the lockpicking mini game to be kind of neat. I liked that it didn't take up the whole screen, and it wasn't just pins like the screenshot in this thread appears to be.

Hamadriyad
17th Mar 2013, 21:15
I agree with you on that one.

Nephthys
17th Mar 2013, 21:21
I agree with you on that one.

I mean, the inside of a lock is really cool and all, but if I really wanted to see how it worked I could look at a diagram or youtube it. So I like the idea that there was a different visual representation of the lock.

Hamadriyad
17th Mar 2013, 21:25
Yes, you are right. But we'll see inside of a lock again. I hope they can bring some changes and challenges.

scumm
18th Mar 2013, 14:30
And it would be good If they give us an option to open doors slowly.


I agree, just having the door swing fully open every time was a bit annoying. I was able to get it under control in the previous games but it wasn't very intuitive or smooth.

I'm not sure if this sort of thing has been done in other games yet but here's an idea: Right-Click to open a door, but Right-Click and Hold to control the door. You would just move the mouse in the direction and speed that you'd like the door to move. That way we could slowly open and shut things or possibly SLAM them shut if you want to create a distraction. Noise levels could be attached to doors as well.

Also, I agree with the sentiment that you need to be able to quickly look over your shoulder or break away from the lock picking screen. At the very least I hope the game doesn't pause while you attempt to pick a lock.

Platinumoxicity
18th Mar 2013, 14:40
I can't think of an intuitive system of opening doors that would not reassign the control scheme. In Chaos Theory, you enter a special mode where movement keys change into door opening keys and you need to escape the mode or fully open the door to get back into the game. So that accomplishes the goal but in the expense of keyboard keys. In Amnesia, your mouse aiming controls change into door opening controls, locking your view in place. So that accomplishes the same thing, but in the expense of mouse control.

Control is the most important aspect of any game, especially when it comes to the subject of immersion. And the worst thing a game can do against immersion is to change controls in the middle of the game experience. The basic motor functions of a human being do not alternate depending on whether they are walking or opening a door. If the options menu says that mouse operates your aiming, then that should be what it does in all circumstances.

Keeper_Riff
18th Mar 2013, 16:06
I can't think of an intuitive system of opening doors that would not reassign the control scheme.Universal "Grab" button will be enough. Just grab the door's edge and move it by rotating your view or moving yourself.

Platinumoxicity
18th Mar 2013, 19:52
I guess that could work. But it would need to default to a slow speed of opening the door because it different angles and circumstances, the game physics could "spring" around a player's awkward grab and slam the door open or closed. Even though Amnesia has a specific door manipulating control system, that still tends to happen. Because when manipulating 2d mouse controls to move a 3d object, observing the action through a 2d screen, the player can't really know how exactly the game interprets your control input and applies it to the task at hand.

And as much as I hate contextuality, this system would probably need to be contextual. Hold to open slowly, tap to open normally.

xDarknessFallsx
18th Mar 2013, 20:09
All you need is a console and console controller. When at an unlocked door, it would say:
- "Press (X) to open door"
- "Hold (L1) + Press (X) to open door slowly"

Heh, j/k. On PC, just hold the creep key ;)

Note: I think there's some inherent gameplay tension with the door just flying open, where you should make sure by listening through the door that all is well; especially if the AI was more observant/alert. But I know everyone wants full control. I can see an argument for both sides

Keeper_Riff
18th Mar 2013, 20:22
the game physics could "spring" around a player's awkward grab and slam the door open or closed.Limit the object's speed and acceleration depending on object's mass and friction. Simple and universal. Already implemented in Dark Mod with heavy crates. And if you want guaranteed slow movement, then don't use the mouse. Just grab the door and walk with it at the desired speed.

xDarknessFallsx
18th Mar 2013, 20:40
But then you're having to physically walk in, potentially walking into the light... Rather than the door simply opening or cracking open for you to see/peek into the room.

Kazzic
20th Mar 2013, 00:29
Could make it so normally the doors open slowly, but you can double tap the use key to slam them open. Resident Evil 4 and 5 did that

Or quickly tap and release the key to open the door loudly but hold the key to open it slowly.

Chilliwack
20th Mar 2013, 07:20
Could make it so normally the doors open slowly, but you can double tap the use key to slam them open. Resident Evil 4 and 5 did that

Or quickly tap and release the key to open the door loudly but hold the key to open it slowly.

Why would Garrett ever want to kick the door open and wake up everyone in the building? It's not a bad idea, but it doesn't seem like something Garrett would do.

Keeper_Riff
20th Mar 2013, 08:57
But then you're having to physically walk in, potentially walking into the light... Rather than the door simply opening or cracking open for you to see/peek into the room.You always have a choice to approach from the front and walk in/out, or approach from the side and rotate the mouse, or something in between, or just "use" the door to make it fully open as usual.

scumm
20th Mar 2013, 17:37
Why would Garrett ever want to kick the door open and wake up everyone in the building? It's not a bad idea, but it doesn't seem like something Garrett would do.

I was thinking of two reasons for this:

1. Distraction: Run out of noisemaker arrows? Slam a door. A guard could investigate and ultimately decide it was maybe another guard/servant or "just the wind".

2. Penalty: If you're caught and trying to make a quick getaway, slamming a door open or shut could make things go from bad to worse.

This isn't a feature that I'm DYING to see, but it could add a new level of control and realism. I think the Resident Evil example isn't as appropriate as Amnesia. Resident Evil was more of a QTE where after pressing X, the character walked (or ran) straight through the door. Worked really well for that game but definitely would not for Thief.

Just having more control in general would be a nice touch. Not expecting it though.

Kazzic
21st Mar 2013, 02:49
I was thinking of two reasons for this:

1. Distraction: Run out of noisemaker arrows? Slam a door. A guard could investigate and ultimately decide it was maybe another guard/servant or "just the wind".

2. Penalty: If you're caught and trying to make a quick getaway, slamming a door open or shut could make things go from bad to worse.

This isn't a feature that I'm DYING to see, but it could add a new level of control and realism. I think the Resident Evil example isn't as appropriate as Amnesia. Resident Evil was more of a QTE where after pressing X, the character walked (or ran) straight through the door. Worked really well for that game but definitely would not for Thief.

Just having more control in general would be a nice touch. Not expecting it though.

Just bouncing ideas. I don't know of many games where slamming doors open had an effect. I don't think the guards even reacted to open doors in the Thief games unless you happened to end up in plan sight after opening one.

Tap R to knock out a guard with a door.

ekstasis
21st Mar 2013, 04:22
So I think most of us agree (from what I can tell) that it should be a combination of both styles from previous thief games? So you still have some manual picking to do, but you don't get in a locked position while doing it so you can watch out for danger. The speed of success would vary accordingly depending on the difficulty of the lock. And a mini 'x-ray' view of the lock while your picking (or not if you want it a bit harder/realistic). Personally I would still opt to have the x-ray view because playing on a PC I can't feel my actions as I could on a console so I'd be relying more on sight.

This really needs to be changed from the minigame style it seems to be atm. I'm guessing it pauses the game world while you do it. YYUK!!! How can we make them change this, it's terrible how it is now. Would a petition or something work? anything else we can do to try get our point across?

MasterTaffer
21st Mar 2013, 04:25
This really needs to be changed from the minigame style it seems to be atm. I'm guessing it pauses the game world while you do it. YYUK!!! How can we make them change this, it's terrible how it is now. Would a petition or something work? anything else we can do to try get our point across?

There's no reason to believe it pauses the game world while you pick yet.

xDarknessFallsx
21st Mar 2013, 04:35
Correct. The screenshot could be showing a mini-HUD that pops up in the corner of your screen, for all we know. Hopefully it's not taking up the entire screen, or otherwise tying your hands so you can't look around to see what's going on around you. You should be able to dart off into the shadows at a moment's notice without having to "Press (X) to disengage from lock." T2 didn't lock you into position, and you could easily just run away. Sometimes simpler is beautiful.

ekstasis
21st Mar 2013, 04:42
There's no reason to believe it pauses the game world while you pick yet.

Yeh that was a hasty assumption, it's just that I'm picturing it going full screen to pick a lock and it makes me cringe, why would they take you out of the game like that it just doesn't make sense :/ i'll wait patiently for more news on the matter I guess

Nothke
21st Mar 2013, 22:57
There always are ways to make controls better. I will see to maybe do a little lockpicking game, I have some ideas.

For example you forgot about scrolling. In Rainbow six - Raven Shield you could open door with a scroll up, you would open, lets say, 10 degrees of door angle each scrolling step..

You have *on click* and *on release* are two different events

For example clicking on (and holding) a door will press the knob, but only *on release* will open the door. When you just click shortly without holding, you open door quickly (obvious), but maybe with more noise. Unless you hold click (pressing the knob) and then scroll up to slightly open doors every 10 degrees, eg.

For picking locks and opening with keys you could click on a keyhole/lock itself instead of the entire door. For canceling the process you could always just move away from the door cause you wouldn't use movement keys anyway. But it's more complicated so I might do some little tech preview

Of course, speed, ease of actions and functionality is the top priority of doing controls, no doubt. But you always need practice to master a game mechanic, just like the master thief himself =)

Platinumoxicity
22nd Mar 2013, 06:43
Funny... that in reality, opening old doors quickly makes less noise because the hinges are squeaking in such a high frequency that you can't hear it. If you open it slowly, it squeaks in a very low frequency that is really loud.

scumm
22nd Mar 2013, 13:25
There's no reason to believe it pauses the game world while you pick yet.

It just occurred to me that this may have already been answered. I can't seem to find the Game Informer article any more but I remember the author specifically mentioning that Garrett needed to pick a lock quickly and had to enter into Focus Mode.

So I guess the only reason you would need to slow down time to pick a lock is if the lockpicking took place in real time.