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Yaphy
19th May 2009, 18:01
In the previous thief games you couldnt interact with enough stuff in the world. Especially Thief DS was poor done with that. I would want the "cut down stuff from the walls" back. Maye to distact guards and such. It would also be fun if you could:

-Crush window glass and other glass stuff.
-Make the fire arrow burn instead of explode, its not an explosion arrow is it?
-Be able to lockpick windowlocks to make a different way in to a house.
-Move objekts by walk towards them and make Garrets hand grab the objekt and push it.
-Balance on narrow logs over rivers, roofs and such.
-Shoot a torch to make it fall of its holder.
-See the stuff we pick up rather then having it like an icon.
-If moving inside a bush, Garret should put up his hands for protection.

Thats all i can think of right now. Is it good ideas or not? Feel free to think out own logical stuff that Garret and other people can interact with in Thief 4.

THX

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 18:11
Half of those things were already in the first games.

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 18:13
Yes, and i want em back. And for the other half...Well i want them to.

GmanPro
19th May 2009, 18:15
It would be nice to see the environment be more dynamic yes. I like the idea of being able to remove torches from their holding places. Could save a water arrow just by picking up the torch and throwing it into a puddle.

I also want the weather to play a major role in how you determine your strategy for each level. Say it starts raining during a mission, so your fire arrows become less effective. Or, if a surface is wet, you cannot use your climbing gloves on it (assuming there are climbing gloves of course). And now, that crate that you wanted to pick up and move closer to the wall so you can climb on top of it is waterlogged. You move more slowly with it because its heavier. And be careful not to step in that wet ditch because you'll be tracking muddy footprints for at least 30 steps.

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 18:32
I want Garrett to be able to move through plants and see Havock physics like most games have these days. It's not too much to ask. Add in the shadow element and you have some freakalicious graphics from the swaying flora.

I said something about immersion in one of my other posts and this is definitely a way to get it. The more you can interact with what's around you, the less you remember that you're sitting in front of a machine.

Yaphy
19th May 2009, 18:42
Yes, thats a really good idea. Keep it up! The graphic designers often do poor graphics to plants, bushes and other flora when they make games. How come? Is it really that hard?

WVI
19th May 2009, 18:44
Yes, it is, trust me. >_>

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 19:04
I admit I've never had to create graphics, but the moving plants and affected shadows would put Thief 4 up there with some of the greatest games of all time. Since its stealth, I say, make the environment the star of the game.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 19:34
I admit I've never had to create graphics, but the moving plants and affected shadows would put Thief 4 up there with some of the greatest games of all time. Since its stealth, I say, make the environment the star of the game.
Smogy, you seem to have bumped your head and forgotten that this thread is about Thief, not Far Cry. The quantity of vegetation in the City is so utterly minimal that it should be a firing offense to waste any development time on the sort of things you suggest.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 19:40
*Cough*Any Pagan based level*Cough*

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 19:46
*Cough*Any Pagan based level*Cough*


;) Indeed

GmanPro
19th May 2009, 19:56
Still. One level is hardly worth the effort. Just copy and paste the vegetation from TRU. Done.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 20:01
*Cough*Any Pagan based level*Cough*
...are mostly trees. Thief is set in the rough vicinity of Europe. While you will find forests there, you won't find the sort of massive tropical plant life that would make integrating them into the physics engine worthwhile.

Even then, each Thief game has had, what... just one Pagan level each? Even if they were set in the heart of the Amazon that still wouldn't make it a smart investment of dev time.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 20:02
Still. One level is hardly worth the effort. Just copy and paste the vegetation from TRU. Done.

I'de much rather have some effort put into every aspect of the game. Sub par effort results in games like Deadly Shadows. Good, but doesn't live up to its predecessors.

GmanPro
19th May 2009, 20:04
Actually, Deadly Shadows was so concerned with getting the graphics right, that it neglected to polish any other aspect of the game. Thief 2 on the other hand featured graphics that were already quite dated. But pretty graphics was never the point.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 20:09
Yes, but I don't believe that in order to have good game play, you have to use dated graphics. There are plenty of great games on the modern market that play amazingly and still look gorgeous.

WVI
19th May 2009, 20:12
Actually, Deadly Shadows was so concerned with getting the graphics right, that it neglected to polish any other aspect of the game.

Everything that was designed was designed so by choice. It wasn't a matter of rushing the game or being too distracted with graphics. Just take a look at the stealth system; it's easily the best. You can actually see, for example, which shadows will actually hide you. I'm not saying don't knock on DS, but to look at a bad game and say it's bad because of ___________ takes a lot to back it up. For instance, Sonic the Hedgehog for 360/PS3. Yeah, the game was rushed, but most of its faults were due to genuine sloppy design, NOT switching focus.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 20:12
Actually, Deadly Shadows was so concerned with getting the graphics right, that it neglected to polish any other aspect of the game.
If you read any of the behind-the-scenes stuff, the dev team was apparently quite stressed just trying to get the game not looking like crap. I'd say they only barely succeeded. They certainly crashed and burned in the animation department.

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 20:17
Everything that was designed was designed so by choice. It wasn't a matter of rushing the game or being too distracted with graphics. Just take a look at the stealth system; it's easily the best. You can actually see, for example, which shadows will actually hide you. I'm not saying don't knock on DS, but to look at a bad game and say it's bad because of ___________ takes a lot to back it up. For instance, Sonic the Hedgehog for 360/PS3. Yeah, the game was rushed, but most of its faults were due to genuine sloppy design, NOT switching focus.


LoLMega @ the sonic referrence! :lmao: Poor sonic has been trying so hard

WVI
19th May 2009, 20:19
If you read any of the behind-the-scenes stuff, the dev team was apparently quite stressed just trying to get the game not looking like crap. I'd say they only barely succeeded. They certainly crashed and burned in the animation department.

Some stuff does look pretty silly, yeah, but I certainly hope you're not comparing that to the rest of the series, because if you are...<_<;

Maethius
19th May 2009, 20:21
I would say that moving plants has its place, especially if we make another foray into Pagan territory, but more importantly to gameplay, what about leaving tracks in soft earth? Now, wouldn't you have to be just a bit more careful in a wilderness or snowy level if your tracks could be seen by a passing guard? Also, as a previous thread indicated, that should be tempered with the NPC AI being toned down in crowded areas... who cares if Garrett leaves fresh prints in a heavily trafficked area? And, yes, many, many times I wish that I could yank a torch off a wall, or wished that they weren't making arrow-proof light bulbs!

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 20:22
Some stuff does look pretty silly, yeah, but I certainly hope you're not comparing that to the rest of the series, because if you are...<_<;

LoL who knows what ZylonBane is saying? I never even read his posts because all he does, I've heard, is run his mouth and try and get someone upset.

He's made a point to respond to like all of my comments so far and I've not read one of them :rasp:

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 20:26
Some stuff does look pretty silly, yeah, but I certainly hope you're not comparing that to the rest of the series, because if you are...<_<;
Yes, the animation in Deadly Shadows is worse than in the previous two games.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 20:28
LoL who knows what ZylonBane is saying? I never even read his posts because all he does, I've heard, is run his mouth and try and get someone upset.

He's made a point to respond to like all of my comments so far and I've not read one of them :rasp:

Good policy.

ToMegaTherion
19th May 2009, 20:30
At least in Deadly Shadows they managed to get guards to move and attack at the same time :)

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 20:32
At least in Deadly Shadows they managed to get guards to move and attack at the same time :)

Heh, I always figured it was the guard's first day and they were trying to fight like their fencing coach had taught them.

"An intruder! Alright, right foot forward, sword stead- HEY, WHERE YOU GOING!? THAT'S NOT HOW YOU SWORD FIGHT!"

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 20:35
He's made a point to respond to like all of my comments so far...
It's fascinating (but unsurprising) how the cause-and-effect relationship here has utterly eluded Mr. Smooogy.

ToMegaTherion
19th May 2009, 20:36
It's fascinating (but unsurprising) how the cause-and-effect relationship here has utterly eluded Mr. Smooogy.

:rasp:

Terr
19th May 2009, 22:45
PMs, people.

WVI
19th May 2009, 22:48
Enough of the slapfighting.


Yes, the animation in Deadly Shadows is worse than in the previous two games.

I really wish FRAPS was on for my last round of TMA. It was so ridiculous.

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 23:09
I really wish FRAPS was on for my last round of TMA. It was so ridiculous.
What, the way guards actually crumple and fall over instead of going into some kind of sitting yoga death pose with their heads bent backwards? Or the way guards look like actual humans when walking around, as opposed to wind-up toy soldiers?

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
19th May 2009, 23:12
It was hilarious how guards died in TDS. I always liked to imagine an accordion playing as they bent, folded, and flapped around.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 23:16
Deadly shadows had horrible transitions from animation to rag doll was God awful, for sure. There was a moment when I thought one killed himself when his body shot back forward and slammed his face into the deck.

randomtaffer
19th May 2009, 23:18
Ever try putting a body in a doorway in TDS, then closing the door?

Try it.

WVI
19th May 2009, 23:20
Haha, okay, the death transitions in DS are hilarious. The actual model animations are great compared to the other entries, though.

Smooogy
20th May 2009, 15:18
Yeah you could edit the game files in TDS to keep the dead bodies from flopping around like fish, to try and give them a little more realistic weight, but that shouldn't be necessary for the player to do.

jermi
20th May 2009, 17:53
Haha, okay, the death transitions in DS are hilarious. The actual model animations are great compared to the other entries, though.You have got to be kidding. Animation in TDP is motion-captured. Animation in TDS is so stiff I can't even imagine how they came up with it. I honestly can't; the default biped walk loop from Character Studio 3 is much better than the walk animations in TDS.

Smooogy
20th May 2009, 18:07
You have got to be kidding. Animation in TDP is motion-captured. Animation in TDS is so stiff I can't even imagine how they came up with it. I honestly can't; the default biped walk loop from Character Studio 3 is much better than the walk animations in TDS.

:lol: Yeah, that's one of the things I hated about TDS when I played it the first time. I was like "Yeah! Another thief game finally!" Then in the first mission the guard walks by you looking as if he were a member of the borg, all rigid and looking ahead like a zombie. :hmm:

Skaruts
20th May 2009, 18:46
You guys give too much importance to some details... At least for me that was never a big thing. Sure I noticed bad ragdolls and somewhat rigid guards and characters, but that didn't deprived me of imerging into the game. There were bigger issues than that, so I can't go about saying "that was horrible". Could be better, but they still did a nice work.

Were ragdolls and characters any better in MA? I thought not. Give them a break will you? see the bright side, the game improved in many aspects failed in many other, no one is perfect. And no matter how many sequels it will have, it will never be perfect. Have you ever played a game without flaws?



-Be able to lockpick windowlocks to make a different way in to a house.

lol, windows don't have locks. They have handles that can only be opened from inside. In some cases you can actually, even nowadays, put a card in the middle an lift the locking metal thing (dunno the name). Other than that, you can only break the windows from outside. ;)

As for smooogy's havok physics and graphics :p, that wouldn't be a good thing. You have any idea how CPU/Graph card intensive these things can be?
Thief is about gameplay and ambience, and while I agree to having weaving vegetation to some degree, weather (at least for environmental fun), and stuff like that, I totally disagree with havok stuff. Actually, I disagree with that for most games that make use of it. It's an unnecessary evil in most circumstances.
Having enough physics in Thief that could open many doors to functionality, puzzle solving, fun, etc, would be a great thing, Just not to the havok level.

As I usually say, "You have a good storyline, you make a Half-Life 2. You have a bad storyline you make a Crysis." Graphics are often used to divert you from how bad/weak the game rly is. You go like "WOW!!! This is fantastic!!!" while you are just shooting away enemies for some oversused cliché reason, like in 10000 other FP shooters. And in the end you realise that the looks of it did nothing more usefull throughout the game than to amaze you.

Smooogy
20th May 2009, 19:15
[QUOTE=Skaruts;998486]As for smooogy's havok physics and graphics :p, that wouldn't be a good thing. You have any idea how CPU/Graph card intensive these things can be?
Thief is about gameplay and ambience, and while I agree to having weaving vegetation to some degree, weather (at least for environmental fun), and stuff like that, I totally disagree with havok stuff. QUOTE]



You don't think Havok physics are a good idea for a new game coming out after 2009 when every single one utilizes it and players notice when there is no realistic physics especially in a game like this one where you're focusing more on the environment than many others..

lol man, come on. Yeah Havok takes some system resources, but change is good. Plus my pc is a BEAST :p

Even Silent Hill Homecoming had havok physics in it. I guarantee you Thief 4 will have it. You just wait and see :P because havok is the cheapest and best physics engine on the market for gaming

Petike the Taffer
20th May 2009, 21:55
Just make it at least as good as in the Penumbra series and I'll be satisfied. :D

Smooogy
21st May 2009, 00:03
Just make it at least as good as in the Penumbra series and I'll be satisfied. :D

lol

BlooferLady
21st May 2009, 00:35
lol, windows don't have locks. They have handles that can only be opened from inside. In some cases you can actually, even nowadays, put a card in the middle an lift the locking metal thing (dunno the name). Other than that, you can only break the windows from outside.

Ahaha. Well, if you ignore the word lockpick, you're still left with a pretty good idea. I was always frustrated with the lack of windows to climb through. I think you should be able to shim/pry/break windows open. It would open up more of the levels and make for interesting ways to evade the guards.

I would like more interaction with the environment. Perhaps not to the level of pushing fern fronds out of your face, but I liked the idea of moving torches and boxes. You could use it to set up more traps and distractions without adding extra gizmos to the inventory. We already had oilslicks to make guards slip. Couldn't we set boxes where they aren't expecting them and enjoy a face-plant? I would....

Yaphy
27th May 2009, 21:39
lol, windows don't have locks. They have handles that can only be opened from inside. In some cases you can actually, even nowadays, put a card in the middle an lift the locking metal thing (dunno the name). Other than that, you can only break the windows from outside. ;)



Oops. Sry, didnt think about that. But still, brake in to a house from a window using some sort of tool, would still be great. Give some depth in the environment. Not only like: you have these 3 options; climp the roof, sneak past the guarded korridor or find the hidden path. We need as many options as possible to get the feeling of "I figured out my own way of gettin in". Lots of ways to make the game replayable. Find new and better ways to get around the map that you didnt think of the first time you played. It makes a lot of gameplay(and thats what we all wants, right?). :)

Platinumoxicity
27th May 2009, 22:55
Haha, okay, the death transitions in DS are hilarious. The actual model animations are great compared to the other entries, though.

I have to agree on that.
Has anyone played Left 4 Dead? All the death animations and the transitions to ragdoll in that game are probably the best ones I've ever seen. It seems that the old Source engine is getting better by the minute. :)

Sierra Oscar
27th May 2009, 23:20
I have to agree on that.
Has anyone played Left 4 Dead? All the death animations and the transitions to ragdoll in that game are probably the best ones I've ever seen. It seems that the old Source engine is getting better by the minute. :)

You can pretty much thank Havok physics for that - if the Thief 4 game engine used Havok, that would be awesome.:)

tinetone
24th Aug 2011, 21:22
In the previous thief games you couldnt interact with enough stuff in the world. Especially Thief DS was poor done with that. I would want the "cut down stuff from the walls" back. Maye to distact guards and such. It would also be fun if you could:

-Crush window glass and other glass stuff.
And some windows should have iron bars but in generaly you should be able to enter through every window.

-Make the fire arrow burn instead of explode, its not an explosion arrow is it?[QUOTE]
Someone suggested you should be able to fire fire arrow with 50% of its power. Instead maybe we should be able to use fire arrow as axplosive or burning arrow, maybe by using SHIFT.
When fire arrow explodes it should not flame the torch. Explosions cant ignite torches, they may ignite gas or other very flamable substances but not regular torch.
[QUOTE]-Be able to lockpick windowlocks to make a different way in to a house.Windows dont have locks, but some other tool to brak through windows would be interesting.

-Move objekts by walk towards them and make Garrets hand grab the objekt and push it.
Rolling barrels and pushing heavy boxes and some furniture to block doors is good idea.

-Shoot a torch to make it fall of its holder.
You would have to be very good shooter for that but i generally i suport your idea.
Other opions would be guard using oil lump. Hitting oil lump with fire or broadhead arrow should ignite oil in tha lump and may even burn guard.

-See the stuff we pick up rather then having it like an icon.
-If moving inside a bush, Garret should put up his hands for protection.
Not much effect of any at all on gameplay... Purely visual effect... Only if programes would have too much time.

My idea is to make better system for hiding bodies. You cant really hide body in some dark corner or small hole in wall. Guards would still be able to find body just much harder like if would be just lying around or be carelessly droped in shadows.

Someone was talking about footsteps in mud. I would add footsteps in sand and ability to erase them with water arrow.

Weather was menioned too. Rain should also erase footsteps. Heavy rain should also make torches fire weaker and even extingush them.

Platinumoxicity
24th Aug 2011, 22:35
Windows dont have locks, but some other tool to brak through windows would be interesting.


They do in Thief. On many occasions. Most importantly in the bank in Thief 2. Locks on windows allow Garrett to "break" in without leaving any evidence or making noise.

Hypevosa
25th Aug 2011, 00:19
Fire arrows should still explode, there's no good reason to change the cannon and it would be in the same vein as what they did by giving arc to fire and gas arrows in TDS.

However, I did suggest a new mechanic a while ago, where how far back you draw the arrow determines the SIZE and amount of noise the explosion produces. A gentle tug producing what would amount to a pop, and enough fire to light a torch, the full draw causing the familiar massive explosion with fire and force as in the old games. The idea here being that the force placed on the crystal would act as a catalyst to determine the energy of the explosion.

Platinumoxicity
25th Aug 2011, 07:54
However, I did suggest a new mechanic a while ago, where how far back you draw the arrow determines the SIZE and amount of noise the explosion produces. A gentle tug producing what would amount to a pop, and enough fire to light a torch, the full draw causing the familiar massive explosion with fire and force as in the old games. The idea here being that the force placed on the crystal would act as a catalyst to determine the energy of the explosion.

How much force would it require to kill one zombie? I mean, if it requires a full draw, it would be frustrating if you're in a hurry, shooting multiple zombies, and if you release the draw just before maximum, the power isn't enough to blow up the zombie.

DrTariff
25th Aug 2011, 09:25
Fire arrow doesn't necessarily mean explosion arrow. That's what the mines are for. Like the regular fire arrows used historically, intended to ignite your target, not explode in their face. :p

Which reminds me of a likely damage model for guards: the heat from such arrows could burn away layers of flesh, represented by burn marks and scarred tissue on the guards' arms, legs, torso, or even face. But the damage model could still be realistic and challenging, depending on the circumstances of the environment or the difficulty level. Just a thought.

jtr7
25th Aug 2011, 09:54
If it was an arrow dipped in flammable goo and burning, not a supernormal elemental crystal of fire unleashed. This is Thief and that universe, not ours. And they have multiple uses, some of which no other arrow can do.

DrTariff
26th Aug 2011, 09:43
If it was an arrow dipped in flammable goo and burning, not a supernormal elemental crystal of fire unleashed. This is Thief and that universe, not ours. And they have multiple uses, some of which no other arrow can do.

It would be nice to see some of those additional uses restored in T4, such as dispersing swarms of insects, or guarding against projectiles pointed Garrett's way. That's not to say the guards of the T4 era wouldn't have uses for other flammable arrow types though...

Hypevosa
26th Aug 2011, 10:48
How much force would it require to kill one zombie? I mean, if it requires a full draw, it would be frustrating if you're in a hurry, shooting multiple zombies, and if you release the draw just before maximum, the power isn't enough to blow up the zombie.

See, in that situation I think it's your fault if the zombie is THAT close to you such that you can't manage a full draw before it lumbers over to you - it would be a distance of less than 5 feet! Garrett's not the slowest draw in the world, and zombies aren't exactly expedient, you'd really have to muck things up if it became a problem.

Platinumoxicity
26th Aug 2011, 12:02
See, in that situation I think it's your fault if the zombie is THAT close to you such that you can't manage a full draw before it lumbers over to you - it would be a distance of less than 5 feet! Garrett's not the slowest draw in the world, and zombies aren't exactly expedient, you'd really have to muck things up if it became a problem.

Except if the levels are much smaller than Bonehoard or Haunted Cathedral, where you always have enough room to draw full. I hope it isn't the case though. And it doesn't need to be because now the game doesn't need to be made for Xbox.