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View Full Version : The BARON (The Lord of the City) - & Factions "The Watch & "The Graven"



Corvin25
18th May 2009, 13:27
Legitimate question... He's the supposed lord/ruler of the city. But where does he fit into all of this? If he has returned to the city in the time between TDS and Thief 4, surely he would have to play SOME sort of role.

He is the richest nobleman in the city. He no doubt has the most cunning, well-trained guards available. His security system is top of the line, by steampunk standards. His castle is surely a massive, sprawling fortress.... and again, he is the richest nobleman in the city. Garrett's skills would be tested to the limit against non-magical forces. And it would be a great way to finance the next mission, especially if it's going to be a long one (like the whole Markham's Isle thing in T2).

I'll leave his inclusion to the writers, but I think a few of us would like to see just who he is, how he fits into the Thief universe, and just what his significance is. Is he a feared tyrant? Is he corrupt? Is he fair and honorable? Do the City Wardens have power over him? Is he a Pagan or a Hammer? Or is he something else? Is he a capable warrior or mage? Is he willing to go to excessive, dangerous lengths to restore balance to his city? Has he suffered the pagan/hammer war long enough?

You get the idea.



__


*Moderator Update* - June 2013


*Moderator Update* / June 2013




Raptorll: Are the old non-City Watch factions going to return--such as the Pagans, Hammerites, and Keepers--if only to give life to The City?


Thief Devs: Because it's a reinvention, we are not going back to the old factions. We want new factions. The last story didn't give us a lot of options. We wanted to take a step back and make sure we have everything right for a new, fresh experience within this universe. There may be some references back to keep the following happy, but it will be all new groups.

The two new factions are the Baron and he has The Watch. We also have a dissident group called the Graven. There is a political conflict that Garrett finds himself in the middle of. There will be characters associated with the group that will reveal themselves within the game.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/79782/thief-dev-answers-community-questions

Qazi
18th May 2009, 14:45
I love this tread so much.

kin
18th May 2009, 16:51
Legitimate question... He's the supposed lord/ruler of the city. But where does he fit into all of this? If he has returned to the city in the time between TDS and Thief 4, surely he would have to play SOME sort of role.

He is the richest nobleman in the city. He no doubt has the most cunning, well-trained guards available. His security system is top of the line, by steampunk standards. His castle is surely a massive, sprawling fortress.... and again, he is the richest nobleman in the city. Garrett's skills would be tested to the limit against non-magical forces. And it would be a great way to finance the next mission, especially if it's going to be a long one (like the whole Markham's Isle thing in T2).

I'll leave his inclusion to the writers, but I think a few of us would like to see just who he is, how he fits into the Thief universe, and just what his significance is. Is he a feared tyrant? Is he corrupt? Is he fair and honorable? Do the City Wardens have power over him? Is he a Pagan or a Hammer? Or is he something else? Is he a capable warrior or mage? Is he willing to go to excessive, dangerous lengths to restore balance to his city? Has he suffered the pagan/hammer war long enough?

You get the idea.

Voila! thi4f's story.

Belboz
18th May 2009, 16:54
According to the first two games, there was a background story overheard from wandering citzens around the game that the city was at war with another city, there's a chance that the baron was away controlling their side of the war. In thief 3 this background rumour story seam to get totally cut from the game. Or when thief 3 was being made they just forgot about it and didn't put it in game.

DarthEnder
18th May 2009, 16:55
He needs expensive clockwork golems! Only the best for the Baron!

Terr
18th May 2009, 16:57
The collapse of Keepers leave quiet power vacuum, along with strange reports of buildings nobody remembers, most full of blank books. Former keepers begin group-therapy sessions to get over their loss and help one-another with re-training.

While all of the glyphs are gone, an antagonist (Baron, whatever) claims and searches these strange buildings.

And some terrifying doomsday MacGuffin, protected by the Keepers for generations, is discovered in a vault...

HellionKal
18th May 2009, 16:58
I always kinda liked the fact that the Baron was..."there", but not really there. He's the absolute power in The City, he's mentioned almost everywhere, the Nobles visit him frequently (giving Garrett the opportunity to sneak around their mansions)...but he and his whereabouts are completely unknown as far as the player in concerned, as are his reactions and thoughts on the events that have plagued the city in the first 3 games. That makes him all the more imposing and potent as a figure.

But I'd love to see SOME info on him or even him being part of a mission. Possibly Garrett having to steal something from him (something like the mission where Garrett infiltrates Sheriff Truart's mansion) or the Baron ordering a mass hunt for Garrett after he's pulled through some huge heist that has many noblemen angered (as if he hasn't bled them dry by now but anyway).

DarthEnder
18th May 2009, 17:07
I think that, seeking to regain the power they once had, the Keeper's would secretly take over the City Watch. And then they begin to search for other types of magic then can use to replace their lost glyphs.

Platinumoxicity
18th May 2009, 17:47
I think that, seeking to regain the power they once had, the Keeper's would secretly take over the City Watch. And then they begin to search for other types of magic then can use to replace their lost glyphs.

I think the keepers should get over their "loss" and use their knowledge and skills for actually investigating sinister happenings and conspiracies in the city and they should train agents who could influence these happenings and really shape events, much like the "Hashashin" in "Assassin's Creed".
The keepers' attempts at changing the future were futile from the start since they always had the future already written down. Probably one of the main reasons why Garrett isn't very fond of the keepers was that they were cowards but too self-confident about their importance.
They should start doing some real work instead of just sitting on their hands, repeating the question that they've already answered with their uselessness: "We are the balance, what will become of the City without us?"

BoldEnglishman
20th May 2009, 23:56
As has been mentioned, the situation during Thief 1 and 2 was that the Baron was away leading the war effort (there is a conversation during "Ambush!" in Thief II which clearly states that the Baron is away fighting... go look it up on the wiki). I believe, according to some of the un-used Dark Project material, that "The City" is at war with Blackbrook. Some of the Hammerites were theorising that the Baron is intentionally drawing out the conflict to reap in the cash from war-time taxes, and in "Undercover" from the Dark Project:

"Hammer3: hm3c1001: Some do say the Baron means to raise the tariffs again. Even on greens and meat.
Hammer1: hm1c1002: The wretched man serves only the merchants in his own greed.
Hammer3: hm3c1003: His grandfather cared less for his pocketed gold and more for his soul's health...but no longer. "

Finally, his title "Baron" would suggest that even he serves a higher power... (and the 'declaration of thieves' in "Thieves Guild'" makes mention of the monarchy)

Stath MIA
21st May 2009, 00:51
The Baron has always been an interesting character. His absence from the principle plot has always made him appear to be a man of great significance, sort of a Thief god-figure, powerful not through magic or technology (as in the previous games) but through sheer rank. It would be fascinating to have him be the antagonist of Thief 4. As to the initial questions, I'll answer to the best of my ability from the previous games:

Is he a feared tyrant? It doesn't seem like it, from the scattered conversations regarding him do not display him as being a monster.

Is he corrupt? Is he fair and honorable? Based on the general Thief universe, corrupt seems to be the trend for all major factions.

Do the City Wardens have power over him? No data one way or the other.

Is he a Pagan or a Hammer? Or is he something else? Probably he is unassociated with any faction, though he might be a closet support of one.

Is he a capable warrior or mage? Is he willing to go to excessive, dangerous lengths to restore balance to his city? Has he suffered the pagan/hammer war long enough? We'll see, if EM brings him up!

Corvin25
23rd May 2009, 23:08
Well hopefully they will bring him up. He seems like too important a figure to just have sitting in the background doing nothing.

WVI
24th May 2009, 09:47
Hmm...Now this is a thread that grabs my interest. Was the Baron mentioned at all besides in a few notes in Thief 3? I might've missed some mentions.

HellionKal
24th May 2009, 09:59
^^
As mentioned above, during the "Ambush!" mission of TMA a conversation takes place in which it is mentioned that the Baron is away leading The City's war efforts against a rival city.

His appearance in Thief 4 would be hugely logical. What with him possibly returning from the war and being notified of the huge events that took place during his absence and all.

WVI
24th May 2009, 10:05
Still, we only know of him through mentions anyway. So again, are there any other mentions in the third game?

Flashart
24th May 2009, 11:17
If he returned from being at war, only to find his city fragmenting, he might need Garrett's help
in a help/amnesty trade off.
Although I think the story has been decided already.

kin
24th May 2009, 13:53
I suggest to make this thread a sticky as "one good idea for thiaf story" (for the devs).

Psychomorph
24th May 2009, 14:16
Damn! I want to rob that guy!

What if the (war)Lord returns and decides to make an ending to the scum (thiefs, etc), so he basically comes in your way, the most powerful person in town.

AND THEN! You discover someone from his staff, someone very close to him, is responsible for a conspiracy against him (the Lord), maybe a Trickster worshipper, maybe working for another mighty person (someone we know from the past? Lord Bafford, Ramirez?).
Maybe they even abuse you for their plans, spread the rumor you have stolen something special from him (which was really stolen, but it wasn't your work), so you get hunted across the city at some point (kinda a dejavu :D).

At the end you have to work with the City Lord to get things straight and bring down the conspirators.

Ishikawa
26th May 2009, 13:20
Someone mentioned that the title Baron suggests the existence of some kind of monarchy, let's say every city has a baron or something. Let's take this up. Overall i have the feeling that with everything he has done, Garrett is still just a Thief, the only noblemans to care about him where Constantine, Karras and Truart, no? The Baron probably doesn't know or care about his existence. Wouldn't that be a nice twist, after all our point of view comes from the lowest part of the social ladder.

I would like Thief IV to show Garrett making sure his retirement funds are full, because he is sick of everything after the first three parts, sick of the city and sick of his destiny. And consequently he is going after everything he always thought was to dangerous to even think about touching.

Herr_Garrett
26th May 2009, 14:02
Read this. (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125692&highlight=baron)

And this. (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124649&highlight=baron&page=2)

Limesneeker
26th May 2009, 16:10
The Baron has always been an interesting character. His absence from the principle plot has always made him appear to be a man of great significance, sort of a Thief god-figure, powerful not through magic or technology (as in the previous games) but through sheer rank. It would be fascinating to have him be the antagonist of Thief 4. As to the initial questions, I'll answer to the best of my ability from the previous games:

Is he a feared tyrant? It doesn't seem like it, from the scattered conversations regarding him do not display him as being a monster.

Is he corrupt? Is he fair and honorable? Based on the general Thief universe, corrupt seems to be the trend for all major factions.

Do the City Wardens have power over him? No data one way or the other.

Is he a Pagan or a Hammer? Or is he something else? Probably he is unassociated with any faction, though he might be a closet support of one.

Is he a capable warrior or mage? Is he willing to go to excessive, dangerous lengths to restore balance to his city? Has he suffered the pagan/hammer war long enough? We'll see, if EM brings him up!

I have to admit: here lies the potential to expand the Thiefverse in a way we´re all looking for. Some forum members mentioned that the new plot shouldnt focus on magic and/or technology again but on a more "real" thread. Though I formerly suggested a new plot with magic and technology, I begin to like this new Idea and since something like a monarchy has already been mentioned in the former games, an expansion in this direction would feel very natural. (But of course: there still could be/should be magical subplot elements or even better: while the antogonist could have "realistic" goals this time, there still could be blurred/unclear mystical elements to uncover so that you never can be quite sure if there is still a greater unkown force behind the obvious things....)

Corvin25
26th May 2009, 18:40
Read this. (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125692&highlight=baron)

And this. (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124649&highlight=baron&page=2)

I will as soon as TTLG comes back up. >.<;

Corvin25
26th May 2009, 22:06
Read this. (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125692&highlight=baron)

And this. (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124649&highlight=baron&page=2)

Hmm...

Food for thought, this is.

I wonder if the devs are keeping up with these threads on TTLG? Done right, the Baron could be a very compelling character and/or villain.

hexhunter
26th May 2009, 23:01
I would like to see the Baron but I'd rather if Garrett went to the battlefront than the Baron just coming back to the City...

Maybe if the battle came all the way back to the city and it comes down to Garrett to end the war. The way things seem to be is that Blackbrook, the enemy, are opposed to the Hammerite religion, thus it may be that they have their own old god. Considering that Blackbrook is a city I imagine he isn't opposed to technology.

Indeed it may be the Builder himself...

Corvin25
26th May 2009, 23:48
I would like to see the Baron but I'd rather if Garrett went to the battlefront than the Baron just coming back to the City...

Maybe if the battle came all the way back to the city and it comes down to Garrett to end the war. The way things seem to be is that Blackbrook, the enemy, are opposed to the Hammerite religion, thus it may be that they have their own old god. Considering that Blackbrook is a city I imagine he isn't opposed to technology.

Indeed it may be the Builder himself...

What a twist that would be, if the Baron was the Builder in mortal form. The question is though, just how far does the Builder's influence spread? Is it a city-specific religion, or does it spread across the whole country?

He could be trying to spread his influence further to other places...

Or perhaps he intends to destroy his own city so he can create a new one from the rubble. After all, one cannot create without destroying first. And the city is far too set in its ways to be "upgraded" as it is. The only way to move forward is to start over.

Of course, if the Baron is an ordinary mortal, the last thing he would want is for his city to be destroyed.

Direlord
27th May 2009, 14:26
The baron could want to do a urban renewal project though of tearing down all the slums and poor districts where Garrett happens to be living to make a more orderly city. It was mentioned i think in TDS about the winding of the streets being odd it was actually part of the big glyph that we find out later. Whats to say the baron wants to clear that entire area because of any taint in the builders eye or so.

I really do like the Baron being one of the higher bad guys in T4 maybe not the highest perhaps more of a pawn but I do think we should see him or at least his home in the game.

3 Fingered Jack
27th May 2009, 16:14
In a tabletop RPG I ran based on the thief world, the Baron was an oft felt but never seen presence that had "gone to join the war” but still managed to have his hands in the working of the city. I used the idea of Lord Ventari (sp?) from the discworld books and kind of made him the big gangster of the city.

Further "the war" was sort of an odd convenience that reinforced the feudal system. Despite being at war, all the city states still managed a healthy albeit illegal trade with each other.

Corvin25
27th May 2009, 17:34
In a tabletop RPG I ran based on the thief world, the Baron was an oft felt but never seen presence that had "gone to join the war” but still managed to have his hands in the working of the city. I used the idea of Lord Ventari (sp?) from the discworld books and kind of made him the big gangster of the city.

Further "the war" was sort of an odd convenience that reinforced the feudal system. Despite being at war, all the city states still managed a healthy albeit illegal trade with each other.

A semi-benevolent dictator, eh... Might work. Of course, he would have to be handled in a much darker, more serious light than Lord Vetinari.

I can sort of see that though. Crime is so rampant in the city, it would make sense for the Baron to have some sort of influence over the city Wardens. After all, the City Watch and even the Hammers seem to show some sort of fear towards him.

MasterTaffer
27th May 2009, 19:28
It would seem the current Baron is just the head of the corrupt nobility, and might be at war with Blackbrooke simply to raise taxes and furthar fatten his own pocket. Just another schmuck noble.

But if the current Baron dies, there's no reason a more sinister man couldn't take his place...

TheEye
6th Jul 2009, 11:07
yeah thief 4 should have a mission concerning the barron

Ravensnest
7th Jul 2009, 01:08
It would seem the current Baron is just the head of the corrupt nobility, and might be at war with Blackbrooke simply to raise taxes and furthar fatten his own pocket. Just another schmuck noble.

But if the current Baron dies, there's no reason a more sinister man couldn't take his place...

Mayhap a coup? Garret could be involved in bringing it about (for a large fee of course :D) perhaps stealing incriminating evidence about the old baron or something.

Nothke
9th Jul 2009, 00:28
Mayhap a coup? Garret could be involved in bringing it about (for a large fee of course :D) perhaps stealing incriminating evidence about the old baron or something.

Intersting, but I say: DONT TOUCH THE BARON DIRECTLY! Baron should never show up in game, he should just be an idealistic icon (maybe just show him on blurry paintings phisically). Bring in the rumors about him, let the whole city talk about him, but Garrett should not make contact with him, not even steal from his house... stealing from him, would mean the end of mistery, there would be no more questions and imaginations about "who is the Baron, what is he really?". and thief IS all about mistery.

But I just had an idea you are talking about a war. Yes, a war could happen, Blackbrook could strike back on the city in Thief 4, but Garrett should not be a soldier! NO WAY! he would just be a THIEF, using a "situation" for his "good" ways. It would be a great change of gameplay, steal from everybody, cause everybody is in panic, the city is burning, but AVOID war.

gryphos
13th Jul 2009, 21:44
I think he could be one of the most interesting characters in the game mythos, as long as he remains distant. I think the best ways to use him are to keep him as still mysterious even if you actually give him a cameo in the third act (which I think would be a great dramatic possibility). But he should only be a deus ex machina for the plot in a very limited and well writ way.

jtr7
14th Jul 2009, 04:50
...................

Secondary
1st Sep 2009, 01:24
a baron eh...sounds like the kind of person id like to steal from.

Davehall380
1st Sep 2009, 15:29
An interesting character. His inclusion would probably draw upon the war with Blackbrook as well. The beliefs and morailty of the hammers(mechanists), pagans, keepers and to some extent the nobility and city watch have all be well documented. The baron and the mages remain as the two 'others' in the game that have yet to be convincingly explored. To me, the Baron also seems to connotate the feelings of the first game, a more feudal relationship. The other two games fostered either a more industrial, beuracratic system or natural balance.

siranderson
5th Mar 2013, 16:15
"the City is broiling with social tension as it is ravaged by a plague and lorded over by a political tyrant known as the Baron"
dishonored feel and it has a plague and a baron/(what ever was his title guy ) who is evil like in dishonored ... come on really ???

also the cover image is garret climbing a building by grabbing on those ledges like in assassins creed ?

Yaphy
5th Mar 2013, 18:04
“Unfortunately, the City is broiling with social tension as it is ravaged by a plague and lorded over by a political tyrant known as the Baron.".

Does anyone thing that this sounds way to much like Dishonored?

MasterTaffer
5th Mar 2013, 18:07
“Unfortunately, the City is broiling with social tension as it is ravaged by a plague and lorded over by a political tyrant known as the Baron.".

Does anyone thing that this sounds way to much like Dishonored?

Tyrannical governments and the poor living in disease are common tropes in steampunk and Victorian settings, of which Thief and Dishonored both belong to. I'm sure we'll see a lot of comparisons and crossover between the two and a lot of back and forth "rip-off" claims.

Chilliwack
5th Mar 2013, 18:24
Tyrannical governments and the poor living in disease are common tropes in steampunk and Victorian settings, of which Thief and Dishonored both belong to. I'm sure we'll see a lot of comparisons and crossover between the two and a lot of back and forth "rip-off" claims.

True, but the plague as well?

WoodiseLady
5th Mar 2013, 18:25
Regarding Dishonored worries, remember that Dishonored was heavily inspired off of Thief, to the point where I've read Dishonored was the game Arkane made when they didn't get to be able to Make Thief 4. I'm sure Thief will have a distinctive feel to it, especially if we have prominent returns of the Pagans and Hammerites, which I sincerely hope we do.

MasterTaffer
5th Mar 2013, 18:28
True, but the plague as well?

"The plague" is often not a specific disease, but rather a term that refers to any viralent disease with a high mortality rate. So yes, it's not that odd.

siranderson
5th Mar 2013, 18:49
gotta say they should have known this was coming and released some info before dishonored was out
i know dishonored is inspired heavily by original thief games but the plague + evil baron makes it look like thief is imitating dishonored because original thief games didnt have those

also guess we are getting the feel that thief looks like dishonored cuz we played dishonored after tds
ill play deadly shadows and look at the screen shots again and see if anything changes

The Deuce
5th Mar 2013, 18:50
“Unfortunately, the City is broiling with social tension as it is ravaged by a plague and lorded over by a political tyrant known as the Baron.".

Does anyone thing that this sounds way to much like Dishonored?

Um, no. Aside from the part about the plague, the rest describes the situation in The City throughout all the previous games.

The Deuce
5th Mar 2013, 19:00
i know dishonored is inspired heavily by original thief games but the plague + evil baron makes it look like thief is imitating dishonored because original thief games didnt have those

The previous games did have The Baron. You never interact with him directly, as he seems to be out of The City waging war with another city, but you find notes of correspondence between him and other characters which make it pretty clear that he's an opulent tyrant.

MasterTaffer
5th Mar 2013, 19:02
The previous games did have The Baron. You never interact with him directly, as he seems to be out of The City waging war with another city, but you find notes of correspondence between him and other characters which make it pretty clear that he's an opulent tyrant.

I believe he was at war with Blackbrook if memory serves me right.

Indeed, I have yet to see anything fromt he narrative that falls outside of Thief's purview.

zcapp96
5th Mar 2013, 19:04
gotta say they should have known this was coming and released some info before dishonored was out
i know dishonored is inspired heavily by original thief games but the plague + evil baron makes it look like thief is imitating dishonored because original thief games didnt have those

Yes they did, an entire section of the city was walled off in the original because of plague! Only the nature of the plague was different. Even in TDS you had the Abyssal Gale which put the docks under quarantine.

Chilliwack
10th Mar 2013, 21:44
Does anybody else think that the Baron should be voiced by Kelsey Grammer?

Caduca
10th Mar 2013, 22:36
how about this to **** us all over-Garrett is the baron, he pretends to go away for business and thieves a lot then returns to his manor house, controlling the city with his accumulated wealth, (this can't happen, we know Garrett's story, where he has lived etc it is just a joke, do not take it seriously)

fbdbh
10th Mar 2013, 23:11
It's interesting how suddenly these old posts suddenly are relevant again.

Btw, I'm a pretty experienced Thief-player (although not native english speaker), but I never noticed these Baron-references... or more probably I didn't give much thought to them.

MasterTaffer
10th Mar 2013, 23:29
It's interesting how suddenly these old posts suddenly are relevant again.

Btw, I'm a pretty experienced Thief-player (although not native english speaker), but I never noticed these Baron-references... or more probably I didn't give much thought to them.

Looking Glass created a very expansive world for their game. Mentions of various characters that are one offs to continued secondary plotlines going on in the background that are not necessarily related directly to the plot are all over the place. it's a rich world.

Chilliwack
10th Mar 2013, 23:37
Looking Glass created a very expansive world for their game. Mentions of various characters that are one offs to continued secondary plotlines going on in the background that are not necessarily related directly to the plot are all over the place. it's a rich world.

I'd personally like a chance to steal from those whiny blue-blooded Rothchilds. ;)

MasterTaffer
10th Mar 2013, 23:39
I'd personally like a chance to steal from those whiny blue-blooded Rothchilds. ;)

They live in an apartment in the more expensive side of town. I doubt they have as much as they let on.

Chilliwack
10th Mar 2013, 23:44
They live in an apartment in the more expensive side of town. I doubt they have as much as they let on.

They were invited to the party by the Mechanists, though their invitation was lost.

Obviously they must have had some pretty large gardens if Karras was interested in them. For all we know, that whole building, not just that apartment, could have been their house.

fbdbh
10th Mar 2013, 23:45
Looking Glass created a very expansive world for their game. Mentions of various characters that are one offs to continued secondary plotlines going on in the background that are not necessarily related directly to the plot are all over the place. it's a rich world.

This is one of the reasons I like these games... probably I focused more on the more mysterious and magical references... I love how they never elaborate or expand upon these references, my mind fills the gaps with joy and shiver.

What's ALARUS? Who was the Necromancer? Why is there a Burrick at Raminez's place?

But I sure as hell never paid attention to the mentions of the Baron.

fbdbh
10th Mar 2013, 23:46
I'd personally like a chance to steal from those whiny blue-blooded Rothchilds. ;)

Hah! Fantastic characters.

MasterTaffer
10th Mar 2013, 23:48
They were invited to the party by the Mechanists, though their invitation was lost.

Obviously they must have had some pretty large gardens if Karras was interested in them. For all we know, that whole building, not just that apartment, could have been their house.

Karras didn't give servants to everyone that donated and attended his parties, either. He gave specifically to those who had rooftop gardens, but he hob-nobbed with all the nobles in order to get in their graces. Nobles are an inclusive group, and if a noble without rooftop gardens gets a gift like a watcher eye or a child of Karras, he's going to talk about it to other nobles.

Karras was simply playing the politician in inviting the Rothchilds.

Chilliwack
10th Mar 2013, 23:51
Karras didn't give servants to everyone that donated and attended his parties, either. He gave specifically to those who had rooftop gardens, but he hob-nobbed with all the nobles in order to get in their graces. Nobles are an inclusive group, and if a noble without rooftop gardens gets a gift like a watcher eye or a child of Karras, he's going to talk about it to other nobles.

Karras was simply playing the politician in inviting the Rothchilds.

You don't know that. If I remember correctly, Karras's recordings on the wax cylinders stated that each and every one of the noble families would receive a servant of their very own.

And the nobles can't be THAT inclusive if the Rothchilds are so disgusted that the Bumblesons were invited.

The BUMBLESONS!!!

It's preposterous! :(


I can't help but wonder... will the noble families find a common enemy in The Baron? Nothing unites people better than a common hatred.

MasterTaffer
10th Mar 2013, 23:54
What's ALARUS?

A family extension of the Bonehoard where descendents of the Alarus family are buried. The entrance collapsed at some point, likely from a lack of maintenance as the Bonehoard was abandoned at some point when it became completely infested by both undead and burricks.


Who was the Necromancer?

Azaran the Cruel. He was a former member of the Order of the Hand (the Mages) who took an interest int he forbidden art of necromancy. After his expulsion, he set out on an expidition to recover the Book of Ash, the premier tome on undeath in the Thief world. He found it and took his life shortly after in a death ritual. The Book of Ash itself can be found in his spire in the level "Life of the Party."


Why is there a Burrick at Raminez's place?

Pejoratively refered to as the Sir's "nasties", the two burricks in Ramirez's basement are his pets. It's considered a crap job/punishment to be forced by Ramirez to take care of them. They have also caused damage to the foundations of Ramirez's manor in the past with their tunneling, as a building contractor's note mentions in the game. What happened to his pets is unknown after Ramirez died; they were likely euthenized.

MasterTaffer
11th Mar 2013, 00:02
You don't know that.

Yes I do. There are notes in various missions in the game detailing the various types of gifts given to specific nobles for their contributions to the Mechanists. Likewise, it's stated multiple times in the plot exposition that Karras was buttering up the nobles to gain enough buzz to donate the servants into their homes. Sucking up to only choice nobles not only would breed dissent, choke off the Mechanists' funding (they were a splinter sect of the Hammers and they funded their operations through donations), and raise suspicion when the nobles tried to figure out why nobles like Lord Bafford and Gervaisius get special treatment while others did not. Trust me, a group as obsessed with status like nobility would just dig and dig to figure out the correlation.


And the nobles can't be THAT inclusive if the Rothchilds are so disgusted that the Bumblesons were invited.

The BUMBLESONS!!!

It's preposterous! :(

The rich being snobbish and spreading rumors about one another is a common trope. Said denegration is a form of political maneuvering amongst people who prize their status above all else. Speak highly to their face and speak ill behind their back. It happens a lot in Thief as well as other palces that use nobility as a world element. At least Donal and Reuben, the heads of the Downwinders, have the respect to curse each other out to their face.

Chilliwack
11th Mar 2013, 00:17
Yes I do. There are notes in various missions in the game detailing the various types of gifts given to specific nobles for their contributions to the Mechanists.

eB3_iW04keQ

7:55

"I present to each... A GIFT."

"EACH" in this case meaning all the nobles invited. The Rothchilds were invited.

But why are we arguing about this useless bit of Trivia. Let's get back to the Baron. Does anybody have any theories on him? Is he relatively young, or old?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
11th Mar 2013, 00:25
It's interesting how suddenly these old posts suddenly are relevant again.

I was thinking the same thing. :D

MasterTaffer
11th Mar 2013, 00:27
eB3_iW04keQ

7:55

"I present to each... A GIFT."

"EACH" in this case meaning all the nobles invited. The Rothchilds were invited.

Touché, but once again we know where the Rothchilds live. They are in an apartment building nearby the Necromancer spire. There is no rooftop garden on the building; I've been up there. Just because a servant was donated doesn't mean it was reserved strictly for those with rooftop gardens. Once again, exclusivity amongst the noble population would arouse suspicion through resentment.

Not to mention the plant life in the districts adjacent to Angelwatch had died from the air pollution from the tower with the sole exception of the rooftop greenhouse on the roof below Carlysle Armory. These likely survived because they were not directly exposed to the pollution.


But why are we arguing about this useless bit of Trivia. Let's get back to the Baron. Does anybody have any theories on him? Is he relatively young, or old?

I speculate the Baron in the events of Thief 2 was in his middle set of years, as he inherited the post from his father when he passed. The previous Baron was particularly pious and donated to the Hammers quite a bit, but the new Baron seemed far more interested in his war with Blackbrook and rescinded funding for the Order of the Hammer, much to the chagrin of High priest Markander. Without an idea of how old the former Baron was when he died, any speculation I have on his age is strictly that; speculation.

Caduca
11th Mar 2013, 00:30
hmmm here is a thought, why didn't the baron get a robot then? seems like he would try give one to the baron

MasterTaffer
11th Mar 2013, 00:32
hmmm here is a thought, why didn't the baron get a robot then? seems like he would try give one to the baron

The Baron was away from the City at the time of the Metal Age overseeing his campaign against the citystate of Blackbrook.

Chilliwack
11th Mar 2013, 00:33
hmmm here is a thought, why didn't the baron get a robot then? seems like he would try give one to the baron

Karras seemed to be a bit afraid of the Baron's wrath, and didn't want the Baron involved in his machinations. Luckily, the Baron was away fighting with Blackbrook during the whole Metal Age thing. So Karras couldn't have invited him, even if he wanted.

negative_len
11th Mar 2013, 03:26
I was minutes into the thread before I noticed the "2009." So prophecies do exist... if you write enough of them.

zhunt
11th Mar 2013, 07:29
when i hear the term baron i find myself picturing some toffy posh guy twirling his moustache. he has a bad french revolution style wig, a monacle, and a snuff box. he wears those shoes with the big buckles on the front. he challenges people to duals by slapping them on the face with a lace glove but is the type who would faint if a highwayman put a pistol in his face.

hardly sounds like a worthy adversary. sounds like someone who needs a punch in the face.
seriously hope hes more of devious hardman whos earnt his power by cunning and hard knocks, killing of people who stood in his way on his rise to the top, not some simpering panzy who was born with a silver spoon in his hand.

fbdbh
11th Mar 2013, 08:40
when i hear the term baron i find myself picturing some toffy posh guy twirling his moustache. he has a bad french revolution style wig, a monacle, and a snuff box. he wears those shoes with the big buckles on the front. he challenges people to duals by slapping them on the face with a lace glove but is the type who would faint if a highwayman put a pistol in his face.

hardly sounds like a worthy adversary. sounds like someone who needs a punch in the face.
seriously hope hes more of devious hardman whos earnt his power by cunning and hard knocks, killing of people who stood in his way on his rise to the top, not some simpering panzy who was born with a silver spoon in his hand.

Ah, sweet preconceptions and stereotypes. No, he won't be a soft guy.

Chilliwack
11th Mar 2013, 10:19
Ah, sweet preconceptions and stereotypes. No, he won't be a soft guy.

Well, we don't know that for certain. Be may be one of those "privileged" types of characters who seeks to take far more than he deserves. A lot of highly skilled swordsmen/duelists/soldiers from Victorian times appeared quite effeminate at a glance, like the villain from Rob Roy. (his name escapes me)

Now obviously I'm not saying he SHOULD be like that. But it wouldn't be bad if he was, IF HE WAS WRITTEN WELL.

... Of course, looking back at the posts, I think when you say "he won't be soft," I thought you meant "he will not be feminine or classy."

No, he will absolutely NOT be soft, in terms of character and brutality. ;)

fbdbh
11th Mar 2013, 17:51
According to the marketing materials, The Baron is a tyrant, so I guess he's very powerful. (Edit: look at the official webpage, to the left, I think it's him).

But even if he was absent, I wonder how could he let something like Karras happen.

Chilliwack
11th Mar 2013, 19:54
According to the marketing materials, The Baron is a tyrant, so I guess he's very powerful. (Edit: look at the official webpage, to the left, I think it's him).

But even if he was absent, I wonder how could he let something like Karras happen.

You have to remember that this is a medieval steampunk setting. There is no instantaneous, long-distance communication, and no cars. At best, they'd have something like carrier pigeons to deliver messages. And even those can take weeks.

fbdbh
11th Mar 2013, 20:51
You have to remember that this is a medieval steampunk setting. There is no instantaneous, long-distance communication, and no cars. At best, they'd have something like carrier pigeons to deliver messages. And even those can take weeks.

Um...

A ruler has agents, substitutes, money - even in middle ages there was just no need for telecommunication to get the word out real quickly... also, I don't think Karras' rise was mere weeks.

MasterTaffer
11th Mar 2013, 20:56
Um...

A ruler has agents, substitutes, money - even in middle ages there was just no need for telecommunication to get the word out real quickly... also, I don't think Karras' rise was mere weeks.

Very true. Karras' rise wasn't something the Baron was likely oblivious to. He was probably aware, but had no real reason to be concerned or feel a need to break off his engagement of Blackbrook in war.

Cookie Spy
11th Mar 2013, 21:22
I'd like to see some nobleman or woman we're already familiar with to hire Garrett for a elaborate scheme againt the baron but then sell him out as anticipated :D

:-D
12th Mar 2013, 13:20
Here's his face taken from the poster at the drawbridge, or at least I assume its his face

http://s12.postimage.org/4geb2koih/baron.jpg

He basically looks like a grumpy old miser. Perfect target, really.

McQuestion
12th Mar 2013, 20:00
Yes, I well remember The Baron while trailing Mosley in The Metal Age, always in the background, always a rumour, never seen, much like Garrett. These are the truly bad asses. It's like The Emperor is coming to visit The Death Star. Finally, The Baron iscoming back to The City and he's gonna clash with Garrett, who has been mucking about with every faction around!

InGroove2
12th Mar 2013, 20:33
Here's his face taken from the poster at the drawbridge, or at least I assume its his face

http://s12.postimage.org/4geb2koih/baron.jpg

He basically looks like a grumpy old miser. Perfect target, really.

http://kusanaki.fr/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/john-carpenter4.jpg

kind looks like john carpenter

fbdbh
12th Mar 2013, 21:02
I'm a bit concerned that this game will be yet another one of those orwellian dystopies, like hl2 or hunger games or dishonored etc.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
18th Mar 2013, 22:48
Here's his face taken from the poster at the drawbridge, or at least I assume its his face

http://s12.postimage.org/4geb2koih/baron.jpg

He basically looks like a grumpy old miser. Perfect target, really.

I chuckled. :D

sneaksietaffer
7th Apr 2013, 07:29
It would be hilarious if unknownst to Garrett that the Baron turned out to be a distant uncle and if the Baron had no legitimate heir, he might consider passing on his wealth and power over to Garrett provided Garrett doesn't first rob him of everything he's got. :lol:

CaptainObvious
7th Apr 2013, 11:57
I don't really like that. I preferred it when the Baron was in the background an ominous figure, merely mentioned, not pictured.

shallala
10th Apr 2013, 13:11
hello everybody,

I was just reading along this forum for the last months, and as an old fan of the thief series, I decided to become a little bit more active. My recent thoughts were about Thiefs story.

Does anybody has noticed that they have already revealed the Barons Name? Some of the posters are mentioning a "Lord Northcrest" as the Baron of the City. I am referring to one of the posters shown on the official thief website at the "newsletter" section. If you watch close at these posters, which are appearing on some of the first in-game screenshots too, you will notice that most of them are callings to join some sort of organisation called "the Watch"; apperently some sort of neighborhood watch, trying to recruit people for their program. Concerning the quantity of such posters in the City, "The Watch" seems to be quiet an important part of the story.

I just wanted to share my "sightings"...

Kyle Hyde
10th Apr 2013, 13:51
Hi!

Yeah, there is a Northcrest Road in Thief - The Metal Age according to this list:
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120985

But I think just mentioned by name in a book (I just played that mission, it's "Framed").


I still think Thief 4 will mostly tie to the themes in The Metal Age. Sheriff Truart was reforming the City Watch and hiring all kinds of people, a lot of criminals too. So they got a little out of hand.

I guess it will build on that.

Platinumoxicity
10th Apr 2013, 15:34
I still think Thief 4 will mostly tie to the themes in The Metal Age. Sheriff Truart was reforming the City Watch and hiring all kinds of people, a lot of criminals too. So they got a little out of hand.

I guess it will build on that.

But Sheriff Truart's City Watch was disbanded completely. At least if you consider how the organization looks like in TDS. No more shiny steel helmets, blue uniforms or female officers. Even the insignia is different.

Oh, but of course I forgot that Thief 4 will just pick and choose stuff from the entire trilogy without any logic or chronological sense to it.

Kyle Hyde
10th Apr 2013, 16:06
Things change in the Thief universe all the time.

That is a principle of the series.
So I don't see them being unable to shine in former glory again, especially with the help of the Baron, who is back in town.

I don't think anyone of you would complain if the pagans or hammerites would be on the uprise again, although they were weakened as well.
In my opinion it would be the easier way out and less interesting.

(doesn't mean that anything EM does will be more interesting...that depends of course)

CaptainObvious
10th Apr 2013, 16:12
I hope there's more to the story than a simple rebels/evil opressor dynamic that we've seen countless times in games already.

Hamadriyad
18th Jun 2013, 09:35
No Hammers, Pagans or Keepers!

http://www.shacknews.com/article/797...nity-questions


Raptorll: Are the old non-City Watch factions going to return--such as the Pagans, Hammerites, and Keepers--if only to give life to The City?

Because it's a reinvention, we are not going back to the old factions. We want new factions. The last story didn't give us a lot of options. We wanted to take a step back and make sure we have everything right for a new, fresh experience within this universe. There may be some references back to keep the following happy, but it will be all new groups.

The two new factions are the Baron and he has The Watch. We also have a dissident group called the Raven. There is a political conflict that Garrett finds himself in the middle of. There will be characters associated with the group that will reveal themselves within the game.
:mad2: Damn you EM!

Verrenus
18th Jun 2013, 10:53
No Hammers, Pagans or Keepers!

http://www.shacknews.com/article/797...nity-questions


:mad2: Damn you EM!

And down the drain goes the magic and wonder of the Thief series... :mad2:

Hamadriyad
18th Jun 2013, 11:31
What a shame! Also, probably it means there will be no hammer haunts.

contrarian
18th Jun 2013, 13:13
Well, here's what I do like about that article:

Conan: The Thief community has quite a few mission authors. Will there be support for fan-based missions or additions to the game?

Right now our focus is to make the best possible single-player experience, but we may address that later when we are satisfied. We thought about options like an editor, but right now the mandate is to focus on single-player.

That's something you don't hear everyday. Single player? What's that? Massively Multiplayer Online is where the money's at. Create a world and make people pay to play in that world. So, I'm happy that EM is focusing on single player.

fbdbh
18th Jun 2013, 13:22
No Hammers, Pagans or Keepers!

http://www.shacknews.com/article/797...nity-questions


:mad2: Damn you EM!

Order vs. Rebels. So it's basically Dishonored. Again.

EM, I can't decide if I should laugh or cry. This could be a great game, I have no doubts, but it will be the worst sequel and the most insulting act ever made to a fan community in the history of gaming. Seriously.

Look at the developers of Might and Magic X. The developers of Armikrog. The developers of Carmageddon: Reincarnation. They might be doing some things wrong, but they have the heart of their franchise. (My point with Armikrog: even a spiritual successor is better than this official reinvention.)

Verrenus
18th Jun 2013, 13:25
EM, I can't decide if I should laugh or cry. This could be a great game, I have no doubts, but it will be the worst sequel and the most insulting act ever made to a fan community in the history of gaming. Seriously.

I second this wholeheartedly :thumb:

sterlino
19th Jun 2013, 00:35
pretty incredible and illogical decisions.

they want a sure success but they won't please the fans of the original thief... this is a real no.sense action.
At this point
i am very curious to see how this will end next year.

KalashnikovAli
19th Jun 2013, 01:00
No Hammers, Pagans or Keepers!

http://www.shacknews.com/article/797...nity-questions


:mad2: Damn you EM!

*Sigh* This makes me sad.

Edit:

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2013/06/18/thief-ps4-e3-preview/

Quite a short article, but the writer seems to think this Thief is a little too similar to Dishonored.

Edit 2.0:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/125142-Thief-Gameplay-Trailer-Shows-Off-Garrett-In-Action

Here's another that seems to think the same.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
19th Jun 2013, 09:20
UPDATE, FYI:





Raptorll: Are the old non-City Watch factions going to return--such as the Pagans, Hammerites, and Keepers--if only to give life to The City?


Thief Devs: Because it's a reinvention, we are not going back to the old factions. We want new factions. The last story didn't give us a lot of options. We wanted to take a step back and make sure we have everything right for a new, fresh experience within this universe. There may be some references back to keep the following happy, but it will be all new groups.

The two new factions are the Baron and he has The Watch. We also have a dissident group called the Raven. There is a political conflict that Garrett finds himself in the middle of. There will be characters associated with the group that will reveal themselves within the game.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/79782/thief-dev-answers-community-questions

Nightwynd
19th Jun 2013, 10:09
Are you sure it's "The Raven" and not "The Graven"? There's reference for something called "The Graven" on the official site. See the "Characters" section on the official site for reference.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
19th Jun 2013, 10:41
Thanks, must have been a misprint on the article. Shame, I prefer Raven. :D