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View Full Version : Do you want a noise meter in thief 4



kin
18th May 2009, 04:46
Hell no i can hear my footsteps, only a nice gem

Terr
18th May 2009, 05:47
Only if they can't do a good job sculpting the sounds so that it's obvious anyway.

Same principle with the light gem: Use a HUD when you can't convey the same information through the game world.

So it's not about hud/no-hud, it is instead based on how consistently players are able to guess their own loudness.

CavaliereNero
18th May 2009, 07:17
Isn't this why we have ears? O_o Although I guess it would make the game easier for our hearing impaired players, but then they'd be missing out on the best parts of the game anyways. Half the fun is in the dialogue. ;)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
18th May 2009, 08:43
Isn't this why we have ears? O_o Although I guess it would make the game easier for our hearing impaired players, but then they'd be missing out on the best parts of the game anyways. Half the fun is in the dialogue. ;)

^
This is true. It is certainly nice to consider that players with a hearing disability would find the meter useful but, as you say, the sounds and dialogue are what makes this game.

Anyway, I voted 'No i want to hear my footsteps only'. I guess this will be the most common and obvious answer.

Neb
18th May 2009, 09:06
There's already something better than a noise meter. It's called "watch where the hell you're stepping" and it even works from a distance.

Fiddlesticks
18th May 2009, 09:16
Just make the sounds realistic, so no loud sounds which do not attract the enemies, like lockpicking when they are standing nearby, that's unrealistic.

huzi73
18th May 2009, 09:27
Guys dont be so blunt,there are times when no one noticed that metal grate in Baffords manor in the basement,(just before the guard infront of the chest with a flashbomb and an apple at its side).Hell,I could probably ghost Baffords in my sleep!But,sometimes its too dark to see the surface,and,when theres a guard nearby,simply not being able to see what your walking on could result in failure.While these moments are few and far inbetween,if this game intends to be financially successfull,it has to have at least an easy or even very easy mode with a noise detector,(and among other things,lots of extra arrows,no kill limit,no loot requirement etc...Or whatever else applies to console fans)while im NOT trying to dumb down this game,the general masses may find it too monotonous,and simply buy the latest unreal or whatever.Then,not due to our lesser folly of sentiment,but rather our greater folly of our pig-headedness,EM will not meet the sufficient sales target,and THIE5 will never get made.

Espion
18th May 2009, 10:07
Guys dont be so blunt,there are times when no one noticed that metal grate in Baffords manor in the basement

But surely the sound meter will only register once you step on the metal grate, by which point it would be too late?

I'm not going to vote yes on this one. For the reason I just gave I think a sound meter would come across as fairly pointless for the most part. Making noise in Thief is largely about observing your surroundings and knowing what's likely to make noise and what isn't. Telling me I'm making too much noise as I make it would be a little too late.

But...

I'm not going to vote no because the hearing impaired could definitely find it useful and for inexperienced/unskilled players it would help them get a much better idea of how they're interacting with their environment, either helping them play the game or helping them learn how to play the game.

It would almost be like subtitles for noise.

I'd vote "I don't mind," but such an option doesn't exist :rasp:

Espion
18th May 2009, 10:18
(and among other things,lots of extra arrows,no kill limit,no loot requirement etc...Or whatever else applies to console fans)

Bah... Catering to bad/stupid gamers is what has lead to the stagnation of the games industry. There's little challenge in games now and the moment someone tries to add some most people ***** and whine that the game doesn't complete itself for them.

I designed some puzzles for one of the last titles I worked on which were difficult, but then it was meant to be a puzzle based game (you have to think to complete it). The test department the publishers were using were so crap that none of them could solve the puzzle. In the end they requested we put in a cheat. Point the cursor at the top left of the screen, hold the A Button, drag it to the bottom right of the screen, and the puzzle solves itself for you.

The game completes itself for you!

When I read that request my faith in humanity died a little more. People don't want to be challenged anymore. They don't want to push themselves. They just want to be able to say "I completed that lol!" Even if they just pushed the damn "cheat" button :confused:

kin
18th May 2009, 10:37
But surely the sound meter will only register once you step on the metal grate, by which point it would be too late?
This is exactly why there shouldn't be any visual aids in sound perception and i hope EM understands this one very well.

Yotun
18th May 2009, 12:33
NO!!! And I'd personally not mind if they took the light gem away as well! Or at least gave as an option of removing it.

My opinion, if they intend to add any 'aids' (that includes glints, loot outlines, sound meters, whatever) in the game for non-hardcore games they:
a) design the game assuming play WITHOUT them and then add them in as options that can be switched on for lesser players - rather than design the game WITH them assumed as default and as options to be turned off.
b) Have ALL of them optional giving the player the choice to toggle them off.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
18th May 2009, 14:38
No indeed.

Hey Espion, I like a puzzle now and then:) There is one problem I have with a good many of them though. The use of color! I'm colorblind and it drives me crazy when a game has a color based puzzle. There is ONE game I have played that catered to my minority; Audiosurf. That game let me edit the colors so I was able to play. I very much appreciated that.

So while I can say that I don't want to see it. I can acknowledge that there may be people who need it. Not idiots who like to be cheesy, but people who really just can't hear. I doubt they'd be playing Thief though. And a noise meter wouldn't really help anyway now that I think about it. I don't think there is much that can be done for someone who is hearing impaired other than to add subtitles. So yeah, either way a noise meter would be pretty pointless.

ps. I usually turn on subtitles in games. Not that I'm deaf, but sometimes I just can't hear what people are saying in my games. I use it to make sure I don't miss important dialogue.

Yotun, I wouldn't mind a sort of hardcore mode or just plain option that disables the light gem. That would be an interesting challenge. Besides, the less hud the better.

DarthEnder
18th May 2009, 17:11
Definitely want a sound level meter. It's not sure for measuring your own footstep, but for measuring ambient noise as well. If I know how loud my footsteps are normally on the meter, and I know standing next to this waterfall, the meter is already higher than my footsteps would be, I would know I could freely stand up and run here without anyone hearing me.

TeoRocker
18th May 2009, 17:14
I voted for no, but I wouldn't really mind it. Also, it could always be turned off by anyone who might hate it.

xDarknessFallsx
18th May 2009, 17:53
No. And if it's going in for the hearing impaired, then it should be a toggleable option so the rest of us have the option to NOT use it. I enjoyed the occasional surprise surfaces where I didn't see it was marble or steel that I was about to walk on. It helps make some tense and startling moments of 'OMG what did I just do' when you all the sudden here an unexpected 'clang'.

Direlord
18th May 2009, 18:04
I voted no i think it would take away from the game. For the light gem having that removed at high difficulty is one idea i agree with.

I think thief should have a incredibly minimal HUD. A light gem and a icon showing your item or weapon you are holding thats about it. No radar or compass we have a map for that. Also the map we should be able to write notes on it.

WVI
18th May 2009, 22:41
Bah... Catering to bad/stupid gamers is what has lead to the stagnation of the games industry.

Just popped in to say this is a myth.

Crypto
18th May 2009, 22:54
As others have said, much of Thief revolves around listening! We don't need a noise meter. We need to pay attention.

Nate
18th May 2009, 23:24
The noise Garrett makes while moving or picking locks is more than enough to let the player know how much noise they are making.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 02:20
Completely unnecesary. Thief already has terrific sound direction and a sound emter is unnecesary.

1N54N3
19th May 2009, 02:37
I voted no. I'm using the sound meter that god gave me, my ears.

Pangalactic
19th May 2009, 03:55
Why not compromise? No sound meter, but you still have to be aware of how background sounds affect whether people can hear you or not?

kin
19th May 2009, 04:30
Definitely want a sound level meter. It's not sure for measuring your own footstep, but for measuring ambient noise as well. If I know how loud my footsteps are normally on the meter, and I know standing next to this waterfall, the meter is already higher than my footsteps would be, I would know I could freely stand up and run here without anyone hearing me.

You can do the same thing with your ears.

WVI
19th May 2009, 04:52
To be fair, the footsteps in Thief 2 sounded much, much louder than they actually were. But yeah, with new technology, I doubt we'll ever need a meter for something the designers want to immerse us in.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 05:00
Why not compromise? No sound meter, but you still have to be aware of how background sounds affect whether people can hear you or not?

A fair compromise. I always would wonder how a Hammerite could hear me slinking by while standing next to a freaking generator that I could hear the next town over.

Espion
19th May 2009, 07:46
Just popped in to say this is a myth.

Well that's blatant baiting for a debate on the matter, but I'm not sure this thread is the place to do so.

I'm interested to hear your reasoning. Care to meet me here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=996563#post996563) to discuss it?

DarthEnder
19th May 2009, 15:12
I enjoyed the occasional surprise surfaces where I didn't see it was marble or steel that I was about to walk on. It helps make some tense and startling moments of 'OMG what did I just do' when you all the sudden here an unexpected 'clang'.How exactly would a sound meter remove this? Since the meter isn't going to register the sound you make until AFTER you've stepped on the grate, the situation you described would still happen to you all the time.

Kennerinn
19th May 2009, 18:55
Ambient sound is always a factor, but there is no need or justification for a “sound gem.” Not only would the physics be difficult to figure -- does sound that Garret make affect the meter? Is it all sound? Determining how distance plays a part, etc -- but the metaphysics would be difficult as well. If a thief falls off a rope arrow and lands on cobblestones with no one around to hear, will it still alert a guard?

WVI
19th May 2009, 19:06
Sorry, I didn't really back up my claim, but I wasn't trying to spark anything. Taken it over thar.

Maethius
19th May 2009, 20:24
More accurate noise over a meter... and I want to finally be able to buy soft-soled boots! As for not seeing a noisy grate in a dark room... well, that's all a part of the all important mood of the game!

ZylonBane
19th May 2009, 20:43
Why not compromise? No sound meter, but you still have to be aware of how background sounds affect whether people can hear you or not?
I'm not getting how this is a compromise. If there's no sound meter, of course you're going to have to figure out on your own how audible you are.

Besides which, if the AI audio perception model takes local masking sounds into effect, a sound meter would be impractical anyway. I could be tap-dancing over marble but if a guard is standing next to a turbine he's still not going to hear me. With multiple AIs, it's impossible to condense all that information into a single meter.

DarthEnder
19th May 2009, 21:26
Not if you can apply your own experience to the meter. If you know for example that walking across grating causes your footsteps to spike, say, 2/3rds of the way up the meter. And you know that standing next to a turbine like the one that guard is standing next to causes the meter to idle at 3/4ths of the way up the meter, then you know that you can walk back and forth across the grate all day and that guard isn't going to hear you.

theBlackman
19th May 2009, 21:28
You have a sound meter. It's called EARS. A meter is another way to NOT HAVE TO DEVELOP YOUR OWN SKILL LEVEL.

The idea SUCKS BIG TIME.

All you people want to give the player STEROIDS. Instead of the basic premise of LEARN YOUR TOOLS and PRACTICE, you seem to want to make the game the same garbage as all the rest of the games. Take all the challenge away and give the player all the fancy HUD and other crap that lets them laze through the game. Make it so simple and mindless that a 6 month old babe can play.

Most of such ideas are more damaging to the game than I can express.

MasterTaffer
19th May 2009, 22:01
You have a sound meter. It's called EARS. A meter is another way to NOT HAVE TO DEVELOP YOUR OWN SKILL LEVEL.

The idea SUCKS BIG TIME.

All you people want to give the player STEROIDS. Instead of the basic premise of LEARN YOUR TOOLS and PRACTICE, you seem to want to make the game the same garbage as all the rest of the games. Take all the challenge away and give the player all the fancy HUD and other crap that lets them laze through the game. Make it so simple and mindless that a 6 month old babe can play.

Most of such ideas are more damaging to the game than I can express.

I can appreciate the sentiment of not wanting the game too simplified, but work on your social skills a little bit, man.

randomtaffer
19th May 2009, 23:23
To take the gem idea further, what about an option to turn the light gem off?
See how well you've learned your shadows!

WVI
19th May 2009, 23:27
I can appreciate the sentiment of not wanting the game too simplified, but work on your social skills a little bit, man.

Big time. Yeesh.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
19th May 2009, 23:42
Watch it, he's the king of the beach.

He probably just hasn't gotten over the crushing disappointment he felt when TDS came out. Eidos raped his game. You can't just forget that.

theBlackman
19th May 2009, 23:44
I can appreciate the sentiment of not wanting the game too simplified, but work on your social skills a little bit, man.

I appreciate your concern about my "social skills", suffice it to say, that such skills applied here would, in the main, be so subtle the point would be lost.

If I wanted to be social, I would invite them for coffee and cake.

If blunt and plain speech is offensive to you, live with it. My opinion is just that, "my opinion", it carries no more weight than any other. But one thing it never is is HUMBLE.

WVI
19th May 2009, 23:45
It's not that anybody's offended; It just makes you look like a jacknut. There's a difference between blunt and rabid.

theBlackman
19th May 2009, 23:49
It's not that anybody's offended; It just makes you look like a jacknut. There's a difference between blunt and rabid.

I have no idea what a "Jacknut" is but if it means opinionated, I do be that. :lol:

WVI
19th May 2009, 23:53
>_> In my mind, it means a crazy person who's also aggressive. I'll illustrate.

Decent: I don't like this idea. [explanation why]
Blunt: This idea sucks. [explanation why]
Rabid: YOU ARE DESTROYING THE SOUL OF THIEF. YOU ARE ALL HERETICS. SHUT YOUR WORDHOLE THIS GODDAMN SECOND. Oh I'm sorry, you don't like when I post things that make you worry about my mental health DEAL WITH IT.







...okay, maybe some exaggeration on my part, but it certainly doesn't help!

theBlackman
19th May 2009, 23:58
>_> In my mind, it means a crazy person who's also aggressive. I'll illustrate.

Decent: I don't like this idea. [explanation why]
Blunt: This idea sucks. [explanation why]
Rabid: YOU ARE DESTROYING THE SOUL OF THIEF. YOU ARE ALL HERETICS. SHUT YOUR WORDHOLE THIS GODDAMN SECOND. Oh I'm sorry, you don't like when I post things that make you worry about my mental health DEAL WITH IT.







...okay, maybe some exaggeration on my part, but it certainly doesn't help!

Good answer, sharp mind behind it. But exaggeration or not. The message, rabid or not, is there.

Don't say what you mean, you might hurt someone's feelings or be politically incorrect, is one of the main problems with the social milieu today.

WVI
20th May 2009, 00:03
Usually, I don't mean things like "put a sock in it", so I don't see the problem. >_>; There's a difference between being well-spoken and profane. Hell, I never hold back anything I have to say, but you don't see me going "you seem to want to make the game the same garbage as all the rest of the games". That's a little...nutty. Jacknutty.

Point is, I totally agree with what you're saying! I'd rather use intuition than a sound meter as well. I just don't think people suggesting it are basically taking a sledgehammer to the Mona Lisa.

randomtaffer
20th May 2009, 00:06
"put a sock in it" is actually quite polite for the internet.

Nate
20th May 2009, 00:07
Errr, yeah. A sound meter isn't necessary (or even desirable).

WVI
20th May 2009, 00:10
"put a sock in it" is actually quite polite for the internet.

"For the internet"? Well, you certainly won't see me disagreeing with that.

Slugo
20th May 2009, 00:21
Sound meter sounds dumb! There, I've said it!

FrankCSIS
20th May 2009, 00:28
Seems like one more way to witness the game instead of playing it.

As such, I'm opposed to it with all the fury that I have in me.

Or I would, anyway, if I weren't so damn tired.

Shuttlecat
20th May 2009, 00:35
No noise gem. I think the light gem is good enough.

MasterTaffer
20th May 2009, 01:01
Good answer, sharp mind behind it. But exaggeration or not. The message, rabid or not, is there.

Don't say what you mean, you might hurt someone's feelings or be politically incorrect, is one of the main problems with the social milieu today.

I'll be the first one to stand up and say that political correctness is a completely asinine form of censorship, but there's a difference between being politically correct and being polite. You can communicate what you mean without the need to be politically correct OR "rabid" as we're calling it.

You might call it a "Happy Medium."

Vae
30th May 2009, 10:39
You have a sound meter. It's called EARS. A meter is another way to NOT HAVE TO DEVELOP YOUR OWN SKILL LEVEL.

The idea SUCKS BIG TIME.

All you people want to give the player STEROIDS. Instead of the basic premise of LEARN YOUR TOOLS and PRACTICE, you seem to want to make the game the same garbage as all the rest of the games. Take all the challenge away and give the player all the fancy HUD and other crap that lets them laze through the game. Make it so simple and mindless that a 6 month old babe can play.

Most of such ideas are more damaging to the game than I can express.

I couldn't agree more. :thumb:

Sierra Oscar
30th May 2009, 11:16
If it was not necessary in the other thief games I doubt it will be necessary in Thief 4 - considering sound technology has come such a long way now and the likes.

Herr_Garrett
30th May 2009, 11:48
Not if you can apply your own experience to the meter. If you know for example that walking across grating causes your footsteps to spike, say, 2/3rds of the way up the meter. And you know that standing next to a turbine like the one that guard is standing next to causes the meter to idle at 3/4ths of the way up the meter, then you know that you can walk back and forth across the grate all day and that guard isn't going to hear you.

Are you deaf or what? If you can't work out that if you stand next to a working Boeing engine, you can shout all you want, no-one will hear you, than a "noise-meter" won't help you.

This is really sad. I agree with theBlackman, apparently some people are out there to destroy Thief. First the the weapon-upgrade crap, then the warmachine-wanna-more-mechs stupidity, and now this mindlessness.

Why? Really, why?

Flashart
30th May 2009, 12:40
I'm completely neutral about a noise meter. I probably wouldn't use it, given the choice.
But I do think it might be worth including one for those with less than great audio on their pc's, or playing in less than ideal situations (noisy household etc), factor in people with hearing impairments and it seems rather unnecessary to deny the gaming experience to what may be a significant number of people.
Even if it's just a "secondary" glowing gem which could be turned off.
It's like the light contrast +/- keys, you didn't have to use them but sometimes playing in a brightly lit room, it's the only way.

BlooferLady
30th May 2009, 16:20
................................ um. What?

Some of the arguments for a noise meter seem to be simply to aid a very small group of people who need to work out another way to game. "Noisy households"? Isn't that what headphones are for? And you don't need a great audio system to play thief. I've enjoyed it for many years on my laptop, and I've only very recently gone and bought external speakers because it's built ins are so awful. In any case, I once more direct you to the headphone aisle. The only group of people I can't just call lazy is the hearing impaired. But then again, if you're a deaf gamer, seems to me you've probably come up with a way to play through games without sound. In any case, you don't need to be able to hear the sounds your feet are making. You can watch where you step. Ever tried playing Thief on mute? It's awful, but you can do it. The hardest thing is not being able to hear guards.

I haven't even heard any really good suggestions for how to implement this. Any sound you make will only be registered after the fact. What good does that do anyone? I say improve the auditory responsiveness of the guards, especially in regards to ambient sound. You don't need a sound meter.

Flashart
30th May 2009, 16:31
Why didn't I think of that! For those that want to, they can go out and buy a set headphones, that should shift loads more copies of the game. Or perhaps we can build them into a "Thieftype" snood.

Knight
6th Jun 2009, 21:03
When the sound will be horrible, i need it, but in t1,t2,t3 was the (footstep) sound pretty good. So when Eidos will create a good sound system, i dont need it:)

vowdy
6th Jun 2009, 21:37
It's not needed in any way.

Nikoladze
6th Jun 2009, 23:33
It won't be necessary if the game takes into account EVERYTHING that can generate noise, making the sound based gameplay consistent. But it wouldn't hurt to include a sound meter as an option.

DarthEnder
7th Jun 2009, 07:45
So many people here hate the hearing impaired...

Shadow Blade
7th Jun 2009, 07:58
No sound meter I think itll actually spoil the experience to an extent

Herr_Garrett
7th Jun 2009, 09:16
So many people here hate the hearing impaired...

It's not about hearing impaired people, of cripples, or blacks or Jews or whatever, it's about having a stupid and totally useless feature forced upon us. Period.

Vae
7th Jun 2009, 09:33
Yeah, this is pretty obvious to practically everyone. This is one of those "I can't believe we are having this conversation" threads.

Shadow Blade
7th Jun 2009, 11:28
I find that something that spikes or does something everytime you move or make a noise would be a little distracting. Besides I really cant see a sound meter in Thief to me it just doesnt fit. Makes me feel like the character is a cyborg or a mech or something futuristic (maybe my imagination is a little on the wild side)

ZylonBane
7th Jun 2009, 15:49
Makes me feel like the character is a cyborg or a mech or something futuristic (maybe my imagination is a little on the wild side)
If that's what you consider a wild idea, I can virtually assure that no, your imagination is not in the least on the wild side.

DiegoFloor
7th Jun 2009, 18:00
I'm not sure about a 'noise meter' specifically. But some improvements on the sound engine are definitely good! Something like volume comparison (don't know if there's a better term for it) for cases where your foot steps won't be heard because there is some machine making more noise, for example. Better sound propagantion would be nice too.

This is the sort of things that are more than welcome in the Thief series! :)

TheEye
6th Jul 2009, 10:57
more meters would just fill up the screen and make the game look stupid

jtr7
6th Jul 2009, 11:02
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/thief/images/7/71/Garrett.gif