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Hypevosa
17th May 2009, 19:49
Simple enough question, should time pass in real time?

If you allowed time to pass, it could add the pressure of needing to get a mission done before the guards switch shifts (and discover no one's there to switch with) or before dawn (assuming you start at night).

If the game is made where you have to get to your mission and back from it (through the streets) it would also be more important since getting back home through the streets during the day, while carrying a ton of loot from a recently robbed, and probably aware complex, would not be so easy as the shadows in the streets became more... sparse.

Neb
17th May 2009, 19:54
Simple enough question, should time pass in real time?

If you mean 'real time' as in real time then no chance. You wouldn't be able to do anything during the day.

If day/night cycles were quicker that would still be a problem. The shorter you make the daytime the shorter you make the night, which is when the player will be playing the game.

I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

Yotun
17th May 2009, 20:00
I don't think it would be a good idea. First, assuming the mission is in the night (and not say some place undergrounds, where its dark whatever the time), I'd imagine Garett would go well before dawn. If a mission needs more than 8 to 9 hours to finish, then there's something wrong with level design, and we've got bigger problems than whether or not time is passing (and yes I've played all the huge thief I and II missions). Accelerated time passing, no way, as that would be too unrealistic, and if you do implement guard shifts, would just be the equivalent of guards respawning every little while.

Also I think part of what made thief so special was the ability to go through things slowly, taking your time and spending your time waiting in the shadows patiently. I think putting a time limit in there would harm the fun.

I guess it may be more realistic to have some element like timed shifts, BUT, there's nothing too unrealistic in imagining guards are drawn for full night watches, and also nothing unrealistic to consider that once a guard has been downed, he can't go to wake up his replacement, meaning he won't be changed. Or if the replacement is woken up by some other person responsible, and goes to the patrol location, not finding the past guard there might just make him think he left the post early once his shift was done - given the quality of guards in most thief missions, I'd imagine it wouldn't be surprising to find some who aren't 'devoted' much to their duty.

Perhaps you can have a shifts system in a few mission, with the other being assumed that the guards are in for all night duty, with Garrett mentioning the shifts explicitly in the mission briefing, and showing his information on times and routes on the map.

But otherwise, it might just make for a replacement of respawning guards, and harm the pace of the game.

Hypevosa
17th May 2009, 20:02
If you mean 'real time' as in real time then no chance. You wouldn't be able to do anything during the day.

If day/night cycles were quicker that would still be a problem. The shorter you make the daytime the shorter you make the night, which is when the player will be playing the game.

I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

All it means is if you start a job robbing, lets say the Hammerite cathedral... you of course do it while they're holding mass or whatever they call it, and that means you have one hour until mass lets out, and all the hammers start roaming the building again, making your job harder. That's what I mean. Not that you can only play thief while your computer says it's 8 PM or later lol.

Neb
17th May 2009, 20:13
All it means is if you start a job robbing, lets say the Hammerite cathedral... you of course do it while they're holding mass or whatever they call it, and that means you have one hour until mass lets out, and all the hammers start roaming the building again, making your job harder. That's what I mean. Not that you can only play thief while your computer says it's 8 PM or later lol.

Haha, fair enough. My bad.

One of the beauties of the Thief games comes from giving the player enough time to sneak through the missions at their leisure. I'd love for the AI behaviour to be thoroughly fleshed out a little beyond simple patrol routes, giving the locations a new breath of life, but not if completing the level means making the player feel rushed.

johny2211
17th May 2009, 20:32
the idea of having a clock in the corner of the screen playing thief just isnt right :confused: and i dont want to feel like im playing ovlivion all over again, finding beds to sleep and all that is a complete different game style. if eidos are to make thief 4 great like the original then they need to stick with the same ideas and treak minor things, not create whole new aspects of the game because then you might as well call it something different like thiaf ;).

ToMegaTherion
17th May 2009, 21:24
I think the longest I ever took for a Thief mission was a little over 2 hours, so getting out before dawn is not an issue :)

On the other hand, a Thief mission with time pressure hasn't featured in a previous game, right? Apart from the trailing ones. So maybe something interesting can be done with one.

Mr. Perfect
17th May 2009, 22:04
I'd say not. Fallout 3 has a real-time-passing mechanism where one real second equals one game minute, and it's not something that works well when sneaking. By the time you sneak somewhere, the "day" is over.

Thieffanman
17th May 2009, 22:25
Hmmm . . . I say no. One of the things that made the "Thief" games so cool and unreal was the fact that everything happened at night; and there wasn't any pressure to perform/get done in a specific amount of time-- the pressure would be solely of the player's own making regarding how they want to finish the mission.

With a clock keeping time, you have to worry about the arrival of day. The constant, timeless night aspect added to the gothic feel of the game that made it so great :).

Nope; I say keep it nighttime, all the time-- no clock :).

--Thieffanman

CurtX
17th May 2009, 22:36
The game doesn't need a day/night cycle. It's not Grand Theft Auto or the Elder Scrolls. And as for having time limits, I'm not a big fan of those in games. They can be good if used sparingly on a single mission. But I definitely don't want to be rushed through the entire game. That's a big no - no.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th May 2009, 22:42
It's a resounding 'no' from me too, sorry. :o
Also, I hate it when games expect you to "go to sleep" during the passing of day and night/time, in order to boost your health or decrease general fatigue etc. I would just find anything like this annoying in T4. I just want to get on with the action. :D

DarthEnder
17th May 2009, 22:45
Bad idea is bad.

Platinumoxicity
17th May 2009, 22:56
I think there should be 1 mission during the day. Let's say that Garrett has no other choise but to move during the day because he's in a rush. It would be nice to see the City just once in broad daylight. :)
Wasn't "Precious cargo" in T2 early in the morning or something? Cragscleft prison was during the day but you spent most of the mission underground.

But real time progression... No. In all Thief -games, the level design relies on shadow placement and if the sun and the moon would move around the sky, there would be only 1 moment in the night when the shadows would be exactly where they're supposed to be. Some places would be impossible to sneak through when the moon is not right and you would have to wait for it to move.

TeoRocker
17th May 2009, 23:39
How long does it take for someone to finish a mission? 1 hour? 2 hours? or maybe 3? If we want to be realistic, guards don't change shifts so soon, and if you spend so much time just to complete a mission then you're probably doing something wrong :P

I'm all against things like this. They detract developers from focusing on the features that are actually good and enhance the GAMEPLAY, rather than half-arsed realism that offers absolutely no satisfaction or replayability in the long run.

And if you're thinking that it's just an innocent idea that won't hurt anybody, well.. it's not. Unlike in-game, time does matter... 3d Realms being the perfect example.

Nate
18th May 2009, 01:35
I like the idea of some missions having a time element to them (like the above example of Hammerites in mass for 1 hour, and then wandering the cathedral afterwards).

However, since I've never seen a Thief mission that would 'realistically' take longer than a few hours, there shouldn't be a 'must get this done before dawn' time element to the game.

That said, I would like to have a choice of daytime/night time for choosing missions (for example, the Hammerites would be out in the city/furnaces during the day = guards, but the cathedral would be brighter and less thief friendly OR Hammerites would be in their bunks and more guards during the night, but the cathedral would be darker).

xDarknessFallsx
18th May 2009, 01:35
i vote 'no time progression' for all the above. the only thing that might work that might be cool would be to start a mission at twilight time, and have it shift to dark over the first 10 or 15 minutes of gameplay... and then stay dark for the rest of the mission. no clocks associated with it. no fear of morning coming. no rush- just purely for effect. i really hope the nighttime sky look beautiful. with a game that takes place solely at night. i would love to see gorgeous realistic, plentiful stars and star formations, a milky way sort of galaxy kindve visible spanning through the sky, a beautiful moon, and beautiful realistic clouds floating by. clouds that change is nice. cirrus one level... cumuilonimbus another. etc.

Can I ask a question of Thief gurus? where (ie, what world) does Thieif take place on? is it ever made clear in the story? i get a vibe that it is 'other worldly'... not of this Earth. i like that it feels a lot like here, but it doesnt feel necessarily here. if it can have the freedom to not be earth, i like that the night sky could have anomalies in it such as small faint nebula being visible light years away... or star clusters... or maybe very faint distant second moon or somemthing. im not saying lets get all star wars on this, but some goodness in the sky to make it a tad more magical and beautiful to look at through swaying trees and rustling leaves. if Thief is known to take place on earth, then that sucks and i would hate for that point to be spelled out for us in thief 4. in general, no need to define everything for the gamer. some Mystery and unanswered questions can be good

Mr. Perfect
18th May 2009, 01:42
i really hope the nighttime sky look beautiful. with a game that takes place solely at night. i would love to see gorgeous realistic, plentiful stars and star formations

At the risk of changing topics, the constellations could be in the shapes of the Glyphs. :cool:

ZylonBane
18th May 2009, 01:46
I can sum this debate up in three words:

Timed missions suck.

MasterTaffer
18th May 2009, 02:43
Day and night cycle does not lend itself well to THief's design and would detract from the experience significantly. Some things just don't work for everything.

GmanPro
18th May 2009, 04:28
I say no to a Day/Night cycle, but I wouldn't say no to daytime levels...

Platinumoxicity
18th May 2009, 08:50
Can I ask a question of Thief gurus? where (ie, what world) does Thieif take place on? is it ever made clear in the story? i get a vibe that it is 'other worldly'... not of this Earth. i like that it feels a lot like here, but it doesnt feel necessarily here. if it can have the freedom to not be earth, i like that the night sky could have anomalies in it such as small faint nebula being visible light years away... or star clusters... or maybe very faint distant second moon or somemthing. im not saying lets get all star wars on this, but some goodness in the sky to make it a tad more magical and beautiful to look at through swaying trees and rustling leaves. if Thief is known to take place on earth, then that sucks and i would hate for that point to be spelled out for us in thief 4. in general, no need to define everything for the gamer. some Mystery and unanswered questions can be good

Thief doesn't take place on Earth. The continents don't resemble Earth at all and everything is beautifully messed up. :) And if you look closely to the Thief 1 ending cutscene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGZA-KDy87Q), you can see two moons behind the statue there. Also the crazy hobo "scientist" who lives in the attic in "Life of the Party" in T2, talks about another world, a "distant blue jewel" in the sky.

But it should forever remain a mystery what world it actually is. Off topic. :whistle:

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
18th May 2009, 15:02
another No.

Timed missions and escort missions are the bane of video games for me. And day/night cycles are just plain pointless for a Thief game. OH god while I'm at it, please don't have timed button press junk in my Thief.

Hypevosa
18th May 2009, 17:29
XD I agree, quicktime events would be just a little out of place here

xDarknessFallsx
18th May 2009, 17:41
Thief doesn't take place on Earth.
But it should forever remain a mystery what world it actually is. Off topic. :whistle:
Not entirely off-topic, as it was related to my nighttime sky thoughts... which is related to the passing of time. But yep, now that it's answered... all is well. Thanks for the info!

Direlord
18th May 2009, 17:58
I agree with the no to real time for the overall game but like a lot of ideas being put in the forum some i think could work for individual missions. The hammerite mass i actually think is a good one sure you have an hour till they wander that does not mean instant loss. It could just mean a lot more guards wandering about. Some will stay in the church which you might want to get into for the mission or to snatch some rare loot, they could be heading to their cells to pray or some off to work.

However having the hour might not work what if you clear everything in 30 mins but the church what are you going to do wait? I think a better idea would be maybe 15 mins or when Garrett reachs a certain point the church lets out early. The orginal plan being they would be in mass for several hours due to some Hammerite holiday. They let out early for whatever reason and Garrett should give one of his famour remarks of them finishing so quick. Making it scripted though its a mission thing and against what the OP suggested. Reminds me a bit when you are going to the Cathedral in T2 to hear the cop and Karras's meeting. Even though it starts at a time and i think the story you have 10 mins the meeting only starts when you are at your listening point.

theBlackman
18th May 2009, 19:31
No thank you. There are some FMs with a time limit. Left for dead ( I think) and Keeper of the prophecies, where G needs to find an antidote or die.

That works. But in the main, if I take 14 casual hours to wander through a game because I sat in a shadow for 30 minutes timing the guard patrol, so be it. That's my choice. The fact that a mission "Can" be done in under 3 minutes (Bonehoard normal level), doesn't mean that there should be a time limit on the guy that takes 4 hours to do the same mission.

Terr
18th May 2009, 20:09
And if you look closely to the Thief 1 ending cutscene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGZA-KDy87Q), you can see two moons behind the statue there."That's no moon..."

But seriously, they're probably streetlamps, or distant windows. Compare vs. lit windows later in the same video. They've even both at the same height.

Terr
18th May 2009, 20:11
All individual missions should be no-time-limit, doubly so if you have to find any hidden levers or doorways.

Perhaps you can do day/night cycles in "city streets", but IMO it's the wrong focus for the game.

Kennerinn
19th May 2009, 19:13
Maybe a twilight mission, but daylight? I have honestly never asked myself, “What does Garrett do during the day?” I don’t care because his nights are so much fun.

I hope they are careful with any timed missions, they can suck if they distract from the main story line. They could work as a subplot though. I’m picturing something along the lines of this:
Guard’s payroll leaves the bank at 8:15.
On your way to do the main plot line you hear a clock strike 8.
Queue voice over, “I guess it’s time to make the guards miserable.”
That way your mission isn’t over if you miss the deadline, but you are rewarded if you go. Just a thought.

Smooogy
19th May 2009, 19:30
Time limits aren't needed I think unless the mission requires Garrett pull it off with certain parameters.