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Maxx86
17th May 2009, 12:28
Thief 3 is absolutely one of the best single player games I've ever played. I loved the atmosphere, the gameplay, and even the plot (and trust me, games with interesting plots are as rare as diamonds).

But it had a HUGE problem. It was CRAP easy! even with the hardest difficulty!

In Thief 2, the hardest difficulty almost always had: "Do not kill anyone", which added a lot of fun to the game. Garret is not an assassin, killing people that are just doing their duty is completely unnecessary, that's how i've always felt. Also, a Thief shouldn't leave ANY trace of his passage. And missing guards are a trace i guess. Even knock-outs are a trace. That's why my favourite missions were "Framed", where you couldn't even blackjack anyone, and the mission of which i can't remember the name, where you have to map the manor in which they are going to make the masks exhibition, and you FAIL if anyone sees you.

In Thief 3, the hardest difficulty prevented us players to kill only unarmed people, leaving guards targettable with broadhead arrows. I really didn't like that. I've played the WHOLE game without even blackjacking any guard, killing only the shuriken guys from the Keepers that wanted to kill me and undead guys, and knocking out only the guard that patrols just outside Garret's home door. It has been hard, but incredibily funny.

Another thing to discuss, is the INSANE money amount i had in Thief 3. Maybe it was because i only used broadhead arrows to distract guards, I VERY rarely used any healing potion, and I really can't remember if I've used any gas arrow... And the very hard mode forced me to steal 90% of every mission's loot. but I really had TOO much money... And I'd have loved to be forced to choose between getting more water arrows or more moss arrows, instead of maxing them out before any mission.

So please... Make the game harder. Add another difficulty mode maybe where you cant kill/knockback anyone... but do it. Or add a way to reward those that don't kill/knockback anyone, like a true thief should do.
Add some ULTRA expensive equipment, so that the player ALWAYS has a way to spend his/her money.

Espion
17th May 2009, 12:37
I'd agree with just about all of that though rather than make new difficulty modes they should just do what you suggest in the modes available as standard. You don't want to overwhelm people with options on something like chosing a difficulty.

No killing on expert and don't overdo the loot. From previous experience with publishers, it's likely that more and more loot was added because the people testing Thief 3 were just crap, couldn't find enough, and then complained that they could never get enough equipment for the next mission. There's no garauntee of that, but I've been in so many situations where crap player's have whined about it so much that the Producer caved.

To be honest, I found Thief 1&2 well balanced. Even with all the loot stolen from previous missions I wasn't able to buy shed-loads of equipment.

HellionKal
17th May 2009, 14:58
The fact that THIEF 1+2 had "Normal", "Hard" and "Expert" difficulty levels while completely skipping "Easy", was a brilliantly executed subtle move that showed that the game was never intended to be..."easy". The fact that they didn't go with this in DS became rather evident in-game from the get-go...

It was such small details that, when combined, made THIEF the great game it was. Let's hope they bring them back, the way it should be.

Platinumoxicity
17th May 2009, 16:23
To be honest, I found Thief 1&2 well balanced. Even with all the loot stolen from previous missions I wasn't able to buy shed-loads of equipment.

That's a very good point that they should include in T4. In the original 2 games, even if you managed to get all the loot in a mission, you still had to carefully choose the equipment that you were going to buy for the next mission because your money was never enough to afford them all. :) That's what was also fubar in TDS. You could always start a mission with full gear because the loot was infinite and the shops sold all types of items every time.

Aristofiles
4th Jun 2009, 20:48
Agree! make the game but hard... :)

atleast make the combat extreamly hard even at the easy levels. Even in thief 1 i could easy take on 3 guards with a sword and win. Strike and retreat style. Make Gs combat skills crappy, Make it more or less impossible to shoot guards down with arows, remove the knife altogether.

Also one thing i never got was the diffrance between the knife and blackjack? thay did the same things right? the guards went down permanent so in my eyes the bj is just as bad.

Get in/ Get out without a trace, thats the way to go

DarthEnder
4th Jun 2009, 21:03
atleast make the combat extreamly hard even at the easy levels. Even in thief 1 i could easy take on 3 guards with a sword and win. Strike and retreat style. Make Gs combat skills crappy, Make it more or less impossible to shoot guards down with arows, remove the knife altogether.Yeah! And then the game designers can go right down to the unemployment office and start collecting their checks when the 99.9% of the gaming population that wouldn't play a game like that doesn't buy their game! That would be SOOO awesome!

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
5th Jun 2009, 08:26
Yeah! And then the game designers can go right down to the unemployment office and start collecting their checks when the 99.9% of the gaming population that wouldn't play a game like that doesn't buy their game! That would be SOOO awesome!

Are you saying Thief should appeal to the masses? Are you tuning my banjo? Are you stepping on my cornflakes?!

On TDS difficulty,

TDS with the minimalist project is much harder. You should give that a go if you haven't already.


So please... Make the game harder. Add another difficulty mode maybe where you cant kill/knockback anyone... but do it. Or add a way to reward those that don't kill/knockback anyone, like a true thief should do.
Add some ULTRA expensive equipment, so that the player ALWAYS has a way to spend his/her money.

Yay, I would love another difficulty that does that. And yea, they should make the more....exotic items cost more. Like uhm, paying a whole lot for invisibility potions. So I can ghost the next level a little easier. Tada, now I have something to spend my ghost money on.

DarthEnder
5th Jun 2009, 08:35
A "Ghost" difficulty would be cool, but I'd prefer it if it was just something you did yourself as a bonus that the game recognizes. If you beat a level without disabling anyone, it gives you an award. Beat a level without getting spotted, you get an award. Beat a level with all the awards required to meet the definition of "ghosting", you get the ghost award..
Are you saying Thief should appeal to the masses?I'm saying easy mode should. And if you don't like it, don't play easy mode.

I'd like it if my Thief makers made enough money to not starve this time so I don't have to wait another 5 years for the next one.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
5th Jun 2009, 09:02
What kind of awards would they be? Just a simple stat saying you did it? Maybe if Garrett ghosts a level he will do a victory dance for the player. hehe I like that.

Well if your Thief makers didn't do such a crappy job last time maybe we'd be cool.

Yes easy mode should! I took your comment too generally to mean that the whole game should appeal to the masses. Easy mode or not, I don't think most people would be into this kind of game anyway. Maybe thief would sell better if Garrett used a lot of awesome one-liners like Duke Nukem does. "What? There's only one of you?" "It's time to steal and chew bubble gum....and I'm alllll out of gum"

ps. It was kinda lame how easily guards were killed in the Thief games.

Hypevosa
5th Jun 2009, 09:52
Tadd a way to reward those that don't kill/knockback anyone, like a true thief should do.

I take offense to that :( I take a good amount of pride in being able to incapacitate every single person in a level. I don't leave a trace of my ever being there, because no one remembers it! A thief should take any advantage he gets, because if he doesn't he risks getting caught or getting killed. Saying that he leaves no trace of his presence is absolute stupidity when, if you're doing your job well, every shiny thing in the whole damn place is missing! It's not a great mystery to know you've been robbed when that happens.

Like I said, I take pride in making everyone go to sleep (like they should at that hour). The only difference between my style and ghosting is everyone that I've robbed also suffers from a severe headache or a slight concussion...

Since the game will probably be made for PC and Xbox at least, we'll probably see achievements. Ghost will probably be one achievement. I also hope they have one in there for people like me called "Mister sandman".

huzi73
5th Jun 2009, 09:55
100%!!!!!!!!!!!

esme
5th Jun 2009, 12:46
I have to admit I take a certain pride in KOing every AI in a level

mainly so I can wander round looking at the level with my mouth open, I'm a tourist/explorer type player plus it makes finding secrets a lot easier

however I can ghost as well as most people

kabatta
5th Jun 2009, 15:25
You can ghost, but it is more satisfactory to see the bodies of unconscius people pilling up.

kaekaelyn
5th Jun 2009, 15:47
I agree. And it's so much fun to do it right at appropriate dialogue moments:

(NOT direct quotes)

"Probably just rats. UGHH..."
"If anybody comes in here, he's dead!" CLUNK
"Whatever it was, it's obviously gone now." THUD

I'm sure there are better ones than that, but that's what I could think of off the top of my head. I always love teaching arrogant guards a lesson with my blackjack ;)

kabatta
5th Jun 2009, 15:53
You can even enhance the discussion by responding in real life to the guard (if you feel particurarly kinky)

ToMegaTherion
5th Jun 2009, 16:03
Vigilance is our shield, that protects us from the UGH

BG_HHaunt
13th Jun 2009, 20:58
I think all the levels should be ghostable exept ones that can't be ghostable because of the plot.
And there must be a way to get all the loot while ghosting.
Also the awards idea was good.The awards may be some special crystals,invisibility potions,concealment potions (like the ones that conceal the sound of your footsteps in T2X) and other

jtr7
13th Jun 2009, 21:02
Easy on the power-ups, there. :p

Ragnalin The Thief
15th Jun 2009, 09:02
Thief 3 is absolutely one of the best single player games I've ever played. I loved the atmosphere, the gameplay, and even the plot (and trust me, games with interesting plots are as rare as diamonds).

But it had a HUGE problem. It was CRAP easy! even with the hardest difficulty!

In Thief 2, the hardest difficulty almost always had: "Do not kill anyone", which added a lot of fun to the game. Garret is not an assassin, killing people that are just doing their duty is completely unnecessary, that's how i've always felt. Also, a Thief shouldn't leave ANY trace of his passage. And missing guards are a trace i guess. Even knock-outs are a trace. That's why my favourite missions were "Framed", where you couldn't even blackjack anyone, and the mission of which i can't remember the name, where you have to map the manor in which they are going to make the masks exhibition, and you FAIL if anyone sees you.

In Thief 3, the hardest difficulty prevented us players to kill only unarmed people, leaving guards targettable with broadhead arrows. I really didn't like that. I've played the WHOLE game without even blackjacking any guard, killing only the shuriken guys from the Keepers that wanted to kill me and undead guys, and knocking out only the guard that patrols just outside Garret's home door. It has been hard, but incredibily funny.

Another thing to discuss, is the INSANE money amount i had in Thief 3. Maybe it was because i only used broadhead arrows to distract guards, I VERY rarely used any healing potion, and I really can't remember if I've used any gas arrow... And the very hard mode forced me to steal 90% of every mission's loot. but I really had TOO much money... And I'd have loved to be forced to choose between getting more water arrows or more moss arrows, instead of maxing them out before any mission.

So please... Make the game harder. Add another difficulty mode maybe where you cant kill/knockback anyone... but do it. Or add a way to reward those that don't kill/knockback anyone, like a true thief should do.
Add some ULTRA expensive equipment, so that the player ALWAYS has a way to spend his/her money.

I am playing TDS for the first time (also my first thief game) and so far I haven't found it easy on the default dificulty but what your saying makes a lot of sense.;)

DarthEnder
15th Jun 2009, 09:21
What kind of awards would they be? Just a simple stat saying you did it? Maybe if Garrett ghosts a level he will do a victory dance for the player. hehe I like that.

Well if your Thief makers didn't do such a crappy job last time maybe we'd be cool.

Yes easy mode should! I took your comment too generally to mean that the whole game should appeal to the masses. Easy mode or not, I don't think most people would be into this kind of game anyway. Maybe thief would sell better if Garrett used a lot of awesome one-liners like Duke Nukem does. "What? There's only one of you?" "It's time to steal and chew bubble gum....and I'm alllll out of gum"I'm basically just saying for the difficulty settings to work like they do in Thief 1 and 2, and then add Achievements for ghosting levels. Or for doing other things above and beyond the requirements of Expert.

jtr7
15th Jun 2009, 18:13
The same three original difficulty settings, but spread further apart, and expert should be for those who actually want to play as artiste Master Thieves, where the player really has to live up to who Garrett is. If the player can't cut it, the player has no bragging rights.

Amateur, Intermediate, Master

Nate
15th Jun 2009, 23:38
There should be difficulty levels for all of the following:

1. AI difficulty (both intelligence AND perception).
2. Mission specific objective difficulties (ie: knock out 5 guards, or ghost mission, or find all the loot, kill 3 people, or no bodies found, and so on).
3. Carry Capacity Difficulty. Easy allows you to carry a ton of arrows and items, while Realistic/Expert limits you to 12 arrows and 1-2 magic items.

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 00:07
There should be difficulty levels for all of the following:

1. AI difficulty (both intelligence AND perception).
2. Mission specific objective difficulties (ie: knock out 5 guards, or ghost mission, or find all the loot, kill 3 people, or no bodies found, and so on).
3. Carry Capacity Difficulty. Easy allows you to carry a ton of arrows and items, while Realistic/Expert limits you to 12 arrows and 1-2 magic items.

In effect, just like the older games! \o/

Vae
16th Jun 2009, 01:51
I like the idea of having four difficulty levels, the first three in the spirit of T1/T2 and a fourth "master" difficulty for ghosting and/or other more challenging tasks. I also like the idea of renaming the difficulties to "Apprentice, Adept, Expert, Master". I think this would fulfill the playing style and ability of every player without anybody having to self impose anything on the game. This would also add a significant amount of replayability.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 02:45
I don't like the idea of a master difficulty because if it really consists of "ghosting" levels, then it's basically saying any other way of playing is inferior, which isn't cool. Make it more challenging than expert by adding, failure on body found, failure on engagement, but don't restrict the player's use of tools. Otherwise the game might as well just remove all your equipment for it.

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 02:52
Master would only disallow excessive anything and taunt players who don't like to play as Garrett. :p

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 02:55
Garrett is different for different players. My version of Garrett enjoys security, and that's why he knocks everyone out he can. He may not NEED to do so, but there's no reason to not take every advantage he can get.

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 03:02
That's you, not Garrett. He's a man of mystery--not international, though.

Thieffanman
16th Jun 2009, 03:08
So please... Make the game harder. Add another difficulty mode maybe where you cant kill/knockback anyone... but do it. Or add a way to reward those that don't kill/knockback anyone, like a true thief should do.

Idea: There was a "hardcore" setting for the game "Diablo 2": You only get one life; if you die, you lose everything you gained must make a new character. I say adapt something like this for Thief 4: Make a hardcore difficulty where, if you die, you lose everything and have to start at the beginning of the game again.


Add some ULTRA expensive equipment, so that the player ALWAYS has a way to spend his/her money.

Like what?

--Thieffanman

Nate
16th Jun 2009, 03:27
Well, gas arrows are basically super arrows (they knock out people and can put out light sources). They should be much more expensive than any other type of magic arrow.

Also, invisibility potions are pretty powerful in spite of their short duration, they should also be very expensive.

If potent magical arrows/items such as those above have purchase costs that reflect their power, players should always have a use for their loot.

If players still decide to hoard their $loot$, then give them an achievement if they save enough $ by the end of the game. Hehe, you could even call the achievement 'RETIREMENT!'.

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 03:33
Air Crystals should be more available as a natural occurrence, but still rare, more rare than in TDS, and Gas Bombs should be very rare and the most expensive.

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 03:33
I thought the prices for TMA were apt... the only thing that I thought was a smidge expensive was the speed potion, I'd have probably put it at 200-250 instead of 300...

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 03:35
Air Crystals should be more available as a natural occurrence, but still rare, more rare than in TDS, and Gas Bombs should be very rare and the most expensive.

No, NO GAS BOMBS, just give gas arrows their previous power and remove gas bombs all together.... Gas arrows cost 600 gold each in TMA, because of how awesome they were, and gas bombs were more powerful and cost only 375 in TDS... it didn't make sense at all. Just un-nerf gas arrows, and remove gas bombs all together.

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 03:43
It worked okay because we couldn't horde money, which is one of many reasons I'm against hording and and back-to-back missions through the whole game. It seems odd to say--I wish it was funnier than it is--but Garrett shouldn't be richer than every noble in the city we've seen combined. And the nobility shouldn't seem so poor. Apparently most of their money is tied up in the construction of their homes and property taxes. Garrett's even potentially richer at the end of TDS than the First City Bank & Trust alone, unless there are tens of thousands sitting in those safety-deposit boxes. :p

Hypevosa
16th Jun 2009, 03:52
Garrett has such a reputation that they probably make sure to not keep all or even a good chunk of their money in things that are... portable.

Thanks, that reminded me of one thread I thought was really important to make...

jtr7
16th Jun 2009, 04:16
Hahaha! Garrett could find that out and cash in!

Maxx86
4th Aug 2009, 14:42
I take offense to that :( I take a good amount of pride in being able to incapacitate every single person in a level. I don't leave a trace of my ever being there, because no one remembers it! A thief should take any advantage he gets, because if he doesn't he risks getting caught or getting killed. Saying that he leaves no trace of his presence is absolute stupidity when, if you're doing your job well, every shiny thing in the whole damn place is missing! It's not a great mystery to know you've been robbed when that happens.

Like I said, I take pride in making everyone go to sleep (like they should at that hour). The only difference between my style and ghosting is everyone that I've robbed also suffers from a severe headache or a slight concussion...".

Well, i can understand that every player has its onw idea of "funny"... But i am not speaking about that. I am speaking about difficulty, and i can see very little challange in stealing stuff in a place where everyone is asleep or dead.

Anyways, adding a "ghost" difficulty level would not alterate your game style. You would still be able to play in normal mode and whack everything that moves with your bow or your bat.

Another way of increasing difficulty would be limiting the number of times you can save the game while doing a mission...

About the loot... The idea of adding ultra expensive things was just an example... I would just love to see the tactical aspect of choosing what to buy before a mission back. TDS really lacked that aspect... But I also never understood why a thief should drop its money if he doesn't spend it completely in a shop, like in T1 and T2.

Flashart
4th Aug 2009, 19:22
I'd like a 4th "hard" level of difficulty, but still hold back from 100% everything as it still leaves some of the real Ghoster's something to aim at. If there was way that you could get the variety of stats from each mission boiled down into a managable file of some kind of data, then that would be a nice thing to as a "shorthand" stat to swap about the progress of your game. Howabout a dynamic "Wanted Poster".
Should difficulty be selected mission by mission, or at the start of each new game? I was thinking "Easy" might remove an AI or something from the game, giving more incentive to try a different playthrough once the game has been completed.

ToMegaTherion
4th Aug 2009, 20:32
Difficulty should be selectable at the start of each mission, not game. This makes it easier to replay levels at whatever difficulty you feel like. And it can be annoying to start a game at the hardest setting and then reach a frustrating difficulty spike. Although given the way that Thief plays, and the existence of help online, chances are there wouldn't be a difficulty spike that is too hard to overcome.

Also, depending on your style, you might like to change the difficulty around a bit, especially deciding on the objectives you like the look of. For example, if you were playing Dark Project and didn't like the no killing restriction on Expert, you might wish to play the human missions on Hard and the nonhuman missions on Expert.

Nate
4th Aug 2009, 22:32
Very Good Point, ToMegaTherion!

jtr7
4th Aug 2009, 23:26
But I also never understood why a thief should drop its money if he doesn't spend it completely in a shop, like in T1 and T2.

You do understand that weeks and months passed between missions, right? It only makes perfect sense that he would spend that money (and perhaps save some of it for his retirement), and this is also why he needs to do jobs just to pay the rent! :thumb:

"The landlord is coming tomorrow. You need to steal at least 850 loot to cover the rent and other expenses."

"Other expenses" includes, but is not limited to, more gear.




Also, it would not be a Ghosting difficulty at all if you could harm, incapacitate, confront, or kill any AIs.

Hecateus
7th Sep 2009, 02:08
Any thought given to a dynamic difficulty engine like Left4Dead has? I know TDS tried to be a little like this in some aspects.

Also, as a player, I would prefer to see consequences to actions good or bad; instead of say having to arbitrarily redo a level because I was seen or accidentally killed someone. Better to get Achievements for such success than to have to constantly redo levels.

jtr7
7th Sep 2009, 04:33
If you blow your mission, you failed. No erasing that in-game, and the story cannot progress.

Aceyalone7777
25th Nov 2009, 09:22
Well I don't know how many of you have, but I just finished T3 with The Minimalist project installed all in Ghost mode.

It took me about 20-hours (including loading zones) and I can tell you the feeling that I had when I managed to finish the game was among the VERY few I have managed to experience throughout my gaming life.

It felt like a true feat, like I was the one True Thief.
To really know what feeling was this about, only those that have finished the games below can understand!

Serious Sam 1 -> Serious Level
Doom 3 -> Nightmare level
Diablo 2 -> Hell Level

Especially the Museum level made me stick around 4 hours in the level trying to ghost it.
I can tell you only then I really used all the secret passages, all the dark corners and all the items I had. From noisemaker arrows, to oil flasks (yes even those!!!)

I know it has been discussed extensively but in my opinion only now I have fully experienced Thief!!!
No blackjacks, No alarmed guards, Ultra-high hearing and seeing sensivity (even when fully hidden they could see you, if close)

For me a Master Thief level just like this IS A MUST!

KittyCatAngel
25th Nov 2009, 10:44
What I loved about the difficulty settings in Thief 1 and 2 was also the fact that you'd get more objectives if you chose to play it harder, not JUST an increase in the amount of loot you had to get.

It made you want to improve quickly so that you could play the harder difficulties.

I don't remember Thief 3 doing that? Or am I wrong?

glyph07
25th Nov 2009, 11:37
Well I don't know how many of you have, but I just finished T3 with The Minimalist project installed all in Ghost mode.

It took me about 20-hours (including loading zones) and I can tell you the feeling that I had when I managed to finish the game was among the VERY few I have managed to experience throughout my gaming life.

It felt like a true feat, like I was the one True Thief.
To really know what feeling was this about, only those that have finished the games below can understand!

Serious Sam 1 -> Serious Level
Doom 3 -> Nightmare level
Diablo 2 -> Hell Level

Especially the Museum level made me stick around 4 hours in the level trying to ghost it.
I can tell you only then I really used all the secret passages, all the dark corners and all the items I had. From noisemaker arrows, to oil flasks (yes even those!!!)

I know it has been discussed extensively but in my opinion only now I have fully experienced Thief!!!
No blackjacks, No alarmed guards, Ultra-high hearing and seeing sensivity (even when fully hidden they could see you, if close)

For me a Master Thief level just like this IS A MUST!

I always loved to play Thief without using offensive tools of any kind. As for what I call defensive tools (I refer to oil flasks, flash-bombs etc...) I've got to admit that I don't really find them useful. I dunno, the time I need to think about which one is more convenient, I can certainly spend it to find a different solution.

Btw, I find the oil flask, at any rate, 100% ridiculous and I do hope that EM won't keep them.

Vae
25th Nov 2009, 11:57
What I loved about the difficulty settings in Thief 1 and 2 was also the fact that you'd get more objectives if you chose to play it harder, not JUST an increase in the amount of loot you had to get.

It made you want to improve quickly so that you could play the harder difficulties.

It did a better job with the added objectives...which inspired the desire to become more skilled.



I don't remember Thief 3 doing that? Or am I wrong?

As difficulty increased, the loot requirement did also, along with added "special loot items".

Here's the break down for each difficulty level for TDS:

Easy -
Find 30% of the mission's Loot.
Opponent Sensory Acuteness: Low
Opponent Combat Ability: Low
Number of Opponents: Low
Player Damage Resistance: High

Normal -
Find 40% of the mission's Loot.
Find at least 1 Special Loot Item.
Opponent Sensory Acuteness: Normal
Opponent Combat Ability: Normal
Number of Opponents: Normal
Player Damage Resistance: Normal

Hard -
Find 60% of the mission's Loot.
Find at least 2 Special Loot Items.
Opponent Sensory Acuteness: High
Opponent Combat Ability: High
Number of Opponents: High
Player Damage Resistance: Low

Expert -
Find 90% of the mission's Loot.
Find all 3 Special Loot Items.
Opponent Sensory Acuteness: Very High
Opponent Combat Ability: Very High
Number of Opponents: High
Player Damage Resistance: Very Low
Do not kill any non-combatants.

Munin
25th Nov 2009, 13:05
I'm a big fan of having optional objectives/achievements that the player can choose to attempt or not. I think the inclusion of a loadout screen showing various stats is a very simple and effective way of rewarding the more skillful player. Little things like the KO limit in Shoulsgate (?) work very well for me. Optional hard to grab special items etc... are also welcome.

Bumping up awareness levels is nice, but I am not a fan of things like AI doing more damage, or the player having less health, on higher difficulty levels. It comes across as unimaginative, cheap 'n' nasty, and illogical - particularly given the stealth nature of the game. Throwing in more AI is also usually implemented as a corner cutter when it comes to level design and gameplay. I would rather the dev's worked at altering guard placement and patrol modes (coupled with awareness levels) than just throw more AI on the pile. Maybe having something involving alarm systems that need to be deactivated on higher difficulty settings might be an option? Other areas like sewers, caves etc.. could involve traps that need to be disabled?

KittyCatAngel
25th Nov 2009, 13:07
I'd much rather have extra objectives added with difficulty than just an increase in loot.

Also, TDS was so easy because of the hand-holding dynamics of some of the gameplay, such as telling you what percentage of loot you had as you went and loot-glint.

glyph07
25th Nov 2009, 13:24
Maybe having something involving alarm systems that need to be deactivated on higher difficulty settings might be an option? Other areas like sewers, caves etc.. could involve traps that need to be disabled?

In the middle ages, early alarms systems were in forms of large gongs which are struck in case of disaster and emergency. In the outposts, bonfires atop a structure (usually a watch tower) are used to warn settlements of impeding invasions. The first true alarm system surfaced in 1852 and Edwin Holmes was the inventor. A simplistic device, it was actually a solenoid gong which sounded when the trip wire was disturbed.

I cannot really see alarm system implemented in Thief, particularly when something wild and modern has already been very successfully implemented by the Mechanists in TMA.

1) Mechanists alarm systems might be retrieved by a new enemy/power....quite cheap solution though...
2) Developing Mechanists tech I fear would take Thief time setting too far from its original world

I think that this has also been discussed somewhere else, but I took the occasion to throw the ball once more and see if someone have a good idea as to how introduce alarm systems without falling into game repetitions.

Platinumoxicity
25th Nov 2009, 13:39
The Hammerites had sophisticated alarm systems in TDP already, they didn't need the mechanists. Lord Bafford also had an alarm but it was in the form of a gong.

So, Thief's "original world" also includes those alarm systems.

glyph07
25th Nov 2009, 13:42
The Hammerites had sphisticated alarm systems in TDP already, they didn't need the mechanists. Lord Bafford also had an alarm but it was in the form of a gong.

So, Thief's "original world" also includes those alarm systems.

Jeez, u're right, how could I have forgotten them :eek:...forget it, better if I concentrate on my job! Today must be a wrong one! :rolleyes:

Munin
25th Nov 2009, 13:50
I cannot really see alarm system implemented in Thief, particularly when something wild and modern has already been very successfully implemented by the Mechanists in TMA.


Yes, I see what you mean, and I was not even a fan of the tech-alarms in T2, but pully system designs with bells and gongs etc... might be workable. There is little evidence of the Mechanists in T3 (at least from what I remember) which would suggest something like a systematic rejection of their ideas/inventions by the city inhabitants after their fall. Also, I am kinda hoping the next game will be a prequal, of sorts, to T1... or at least a branching story arc, or return to roots, that takes place in the same kind of setting that was first introduced. :)

Edit: Oh, god. I completely forgot about the Hammer's alarm system aswell. :scratch: Still, that may be due to the fact that I only ever caused it to activate once... and that was just to experiment. :)

jtr7
25th Nov 2009, 22:59
Buttons, alarms, and security cameras in Cragscleft; buttons and alarms later in the Hammer Temple (Undercover and Strange Bedfellows); buttons and alarms in Ramirez' estate. The security cameras (Watchers) in TMA were just different models built on the same code, with the addition of the little alertness level light on the side; the eyeball plants were different models built on the same code, but without any connection to an alarm or any notification.


The fact that so many who don't like this stuff in TMA forget TDP/Gold had them all along tells me it's not so foreign to the world as they thought. :p

Hypevosa
25th Nov 2009, 23:14
I can see some group making an ex mechanist do work against their will through blackmailing them. "We'll tell the hammers about your history if you don't produce..." kinda deal. If we want mechanist tech, we can bring it bout through various means... it would be a nice surprise in my opinion, but it shouldn't be something absolutely pervading this game unless this game encompasses a mechanist revival or something.

jtr7
25th Nov 2009, 23:48
I still like the idea of a local tinkerer, a non-Mechanist inventor, messing around with disassembled 'bots, using a boiler as a potbelly stove, and the maintenance 'bots with the top half of their boilers cut off, filled with soil, and used as planters! :)

Hypevosa
26th Nov 2009, 02:56
I find that a wonderfully ironic image, though that's probably a more pagan supremacy thing than a true tinkerer... or just a former mechanist who saw the error of his ways before the events at soul forge.

jtr7
26th Nov 2009, 03:15
Naw. There are plants and flower beds all over The City and hammers have gardens and plant trees. :)

Not every inventor or machinist needs to have any connection to Hammers/Mechanists.

There were machinist shops all over the older titles.

Loup
3rd Dec 2009, 01:02
How do you think the city evolved after the fall of the machinists? If the rise of the machinists is a consequence of TDP and "uppsetting the balance" hence we saw a greater deal of mechanics in TMA. TDS dealed with the keepers instead in a city which sorely lacked mechanics which I must say felt quite odd compared to the earlier representations of the city.

Sorry for going off topic.

What do you people say about traps which could be disarmed in other ways than triggering them? A pressure plate could be sabotaged by jamming something under it etc.

About difficulty on hard, expert.
What about greater consequences when discovered? The guard won't return to the lowest level of alert but kept on a higher alert (somewhere inbetween the usual talking to themself state and the searching state). Guards reporting to others on the same floor or area etc. The guards could also slightly randomize their patrols after a spotting ( opening doors to rooms and taking a quick glance before continuing the patrol.)

jtr7
3rd Dec 2009, 01:14
How do you think the city evolved after the fall of the machinists? If the rise of the machinists is a consequence of TDP and "uppsetting the balance" hence we saw a greater deal of mechanics in TMA. TDS dealed with the keepers instead in a city which sorely lacked mechanics which I must say felt quite odd compared to the earlier representations of the city.

Sorry for going off topic.

We got threads that cover that, hot enough to forge steel with. I hate how TDS not only gutted 99% of the Mechanist impact, but 99% of the tech and building materials that already existed in TDP before Karras was born, including in the sealed Old Quarter, that predated the TDP story by more than 5 decades! The walled-off Old Quarter was just as advanced as the City in general in TMA!


Back on topic: Traps could already be disarmed, but yeah, by triggering them with arrows or objects laying around or flipping a switch, so expanding on the concept and giving Garrett more to do with loose objects and arrows, as before, but in more ways would be a welcome change. Taking what was established and evolving it forward. Like taking how Garrett had to stack two pieces of broken statue on a pedestal and stand on another to open the Keeper Chapel, he could take junk objects and place them where the trap cannot trigger (it's quieter that way), or at least continue the idea of pre-triggering the traps.

Loup
3rd Dec 2009, 09:19
The main reason I'd like alternate disarming techniques is that some traps makes alot of noise (or should do it) Think about the falling stone trap in bonehoard. We would probably never se such a trap in a fancy mansion but you get the idea. About traps in a mansion, they would probably have some kind of mechanism to disable the trap. I mean the owner still wants to be able to reach his own valuables. Could be really artsy to. Twisting a wallfitted torch a little, placing a long metalobject between two stones in the wall etc.

Kyrvias
17th Aug 2010, 07:14
After reading through the thread, I have a few thoughts. (And this technically isn't necro posting, since the mods want fewer threads. So says the sticky thread!)

Anyway. First off, as to difficulty levels. I think going back to normal, hard, expert is a wonderful idea. Simply designed, and subtly influenced, as said. But having a "Ghost" difficulty is a horrid idea. It's alright if you can get some achievements or such by ghosting a level on "expert", but having a difficulty level catered to a specific playstyle seems wrong to me. It's basically saying that the hardest difficulty can only be done ONE way. And isn't the Thief series about variety?

Secondly, difficulty and loot: Mostly for boredoms sake, I started a new game of TDS on my xbox. (Yes, after all these years, it's still kicking.) In my opinion, there should be different sliders for difficulty. Such as a slider for AI situational awareness, a slider for how much loot is required to be stolen, etc. I LOVE playing when the AI is smart enough to spot me. But having to steal 90% of the loot is tedious, in my opinion. If I don't have enough to buy things, that's my fault.

Lastly, I'm all for guards having random patrols, but ONLY when they're aware of your presence. What kind of guard/soldier randomly patrols? It's extremely inefficient, to say the least. But like someone else said, it'd be nerve-wracking if they randomly searched rooms when aware of your presence.

Asadar
17th Aug 2010, 08:35
Anyway. First off, as to difficulty levels. I think going back to normal, hard, expert is a wonderful idea. Simply designed, and subtly influenced, as said. But having a "Ghost" difficulty is a horrid idea. It's alright if you can get some achievements or such by ghosting a level on "expert", but having a difficulty level catered to a specific playstyle seems wrong to me. It's basically saying that the hardest difficulty can only be done ONE way. And isn't the Thief series about variety?

:thumb: Agree with that. The old and simple difficulty levels "normal, hard and expert" are enough. "Ghost" is just a self-challenge for expert players in my opinion.

About the loot... I dislike the "pourcent" system (%). I would prefer a system called stealing a gold value approaching a particular value depending on the mode of difficulty. Garrett is a master thief, he can assess the value of his loot without knowing (miraculously) the percentage of objects in the place.
The value of gold could be worth about 65 or 75% of objects in the map on Expert. But not 90%, I agree with that. ;)

And yes, the random patrols are a good idea only, in my opinion, if they are aware of your or someone else presence !
I mean, if they are alerted because of a situation of war, agression, etc. they could do random patrols. But in an empty place where they used to be, with a specific spot to keep and a specific mission (the same as every day) ... why bother? Old habits die hard.
By cons I'm not against small random deviations in the regulation ... a guard might suddenly want to take a fresh apple in the kitchen. :D

... just one question more : why are you writting in cyan ? :scratch:

Platinumoxicity
17th Aug 2010, 09:46
Anyway. First off, as to difficulty levels. I think going back to normal, hard, expert is a wonderful idea. Simply designed, and subtly influenced, as said. But having a "Ghost" difficulty is a horrid idea. It's alright if you can get some achievements or such by ghosting a level on "expert", but having a difficulty level catered to a specific playstyle seems wrong to me. It's basically saying that the hardest difficulty can only be done ONE way. And isn't the Thief series about variety?

I agree. I'm a ghoster myself but having a specific "ghost" difficulty mode is bad because it hints the player that every mission is absolutely possible to pass without doing any harm to AI. When there's the expert mode you are always unsure whether the mission could be ghosted. A "Ghost" difficulty will make the game easier for no reason. The level designers shouldn't have to bother with thinking whether some area can be snuck through in all situations. If a level is designed to allow blackjacking, it makes it more challenging and fun for ghosters. Everyone wins.

But one thing I can't stand. Loot requirements that are secondary objectives but they still require you to risk exposure by infiltrating every area in the mission location. For a long time I haven't had the patience to play through Thieves' Guild, but one day I decided to ghost it through. I succeeded in my mission except I was 500 short on loot. I just broke into a secret casino and criminals' den, plus 2 heavily guarded mafia lords' mansions, all filled with the people who hate me the worst in the world, within 2 hours without anyone seeing that I was ever there and now I need to go back because I couldn't get the catfood on the shopping list? I happily pressed Ctrl-Alt-Shift-End and congratulated myself for the fine accomplishment of ghosting Thieves' Guild. Now I'll never have to touch that mission again.

Kyrvias
17th Aug 2010, 15:40
... just one question more : why are you writting in cyan ? :scratch:

I... don't know. I like cyan?

Rieknor
17th Aug 2010, 17:14
That's why my favourite missions were "Framed", where you couldn't even blackjack anyone, and the mission of which i can't remember the name, where you have to map the manor in which they are going to make the masks exhibition, and you FAIL if anyone sees you.

I could not agree more.

xAcerbusx
17th Aug 2010, 23:46
More important than the difficulties themselves are the bonus objectives presented on Hard and Expert difficulties. I loved that stuff in Thief 1. Thief 2 seemed to have slightly less of that, but in TDP, just picking a higher difficulty, for example, in Cragscleft, meant you had to break at least one person out, which meant you more throroughly explored the map, etc. It radically changed how you approached the mission.

I definitely want that stuff back.

ToMegaTherion
18th Aug 2010, 09:06
Cragscleft is a good example of how higher difficulties can change a level in non-standard ways.

Nightwynd
18th Aug 2010, 10:19
Or howabout Bonehoard? Higher difficulties opened up whole new areas. :cool:

Tryst
19th Aug 2010, 07:22
What kind of guard/soldier randomly patrols?
Any guard who knows their job.

As a security guard myself, I can tell you that it's often a written instruction that patrols should take a random route and at random times. Even when patrol points are used, it often doesn't matter what order or time they are tagged so long as they are all done during each patrol. I have been on sites that require hourly patrols and I have often done two 20 minute patrols, one after the other instead of waiting the hour.

You can understand why if you are a Thief player, routine means precictability. That allows someone to time their venture according to your patrol times/routes. In effect, you may as well not even be there.

Hypevosa
19th Aug 2010, 17:14
The question I have though is - how many guards actually do patrol randomly? Surely there are a good number of lazy guards who don't want to walk through doors randomly all the time and take convoluted routes to the next patrol point? What kind of company do you work for tryst, out of curiosity?

tinetone
7th Aug 2011, 21:48
If there would not be so much loot and eqiptment just lying around in the City game would be a bit harder. So less free eqiptment, not so blind guards, not killing people on hard is good. Longer alerts for guards on dificould setting, ability to climb on leathers or ropes or crates... so more persistend guards when you`re spoted. Guards witch will tell other guards...
About mission requests, I dont like 3 special loot in every single mission. Always 3 never 2 never 4... so boring. I want secret areas like in T2 when sometimes finding would be necesary on dificould settings.
About ghosting I think it should be medal for ghosting a mission as it should be for blackjacking every guard in mission, getting all loot, finding all secret areas...
Limiting gold can be made with different aproaches. People who wont buy your loot or will buy just cheapest junk so you will have some dificoulties to get a buyer, people who will sell you eqiptment for insane prices, you will have to find cheaper suplier, suplies wich wont just lay around the city and respawn every single night it is the same for loot. Missions with less loot or loot wich is very well hidden and dont make 90% stolen loot just to finish mission.

Xalxitz
31st May 2013, 00:11
Hey Guys, after having lurked around for quite some time, I want to contribute to the forum myself. Because I'm somewhat of a masochist when it comes to game difficulty, I usually find myself unable to play anything below the highest difficulty.

I'm also a big fan of Thief and wanted to give some thoughts about difficulty in a stealth game, especially reallistic AI, and have a discussion wheter it should have place in Thief (maybe in a mod), if it would be fun, etc.

Here are some thoughts I gathered:

No more telekinetic hands - Can't steal shiny stuff right under the servant's nose while he is directly looking at it or opening doors 2 meters away right under a torch while staying in the shadows undetected.

Realistic Lighting - If you're in a room with 2 torches, 1 fireplace and 1 lantern, well I don't know about you, but I doubt pitch black shadows have a place there, even in the corners (wrong neighbourhood, buddy).

Field of view - The human field of view extends to 60 degrees, starting from the nose, on both sides. That makes 120 degrees. (Did you know that the guards in thief see with their abdomen? Yes, seriously. Animations like turning their heads have no ingame-effect. And also: When guards see something creeping around just outside their field-of-view, they should turn their head instead of just keep looking straight and mumble something about rats...

Realisitc AI Behavior: Guards will tell each other of intruders and put themselves in a higher alert-level than normal. Given a high enough number of them is available, they form groups to seek you out, while leaving some comrades behind, who will be extra nervous until their buddies come back and report. The groups will search through the map, wake up any sleeping/unconscious People and ordering reinforcement.

Any guard who is not completly braindead or drunk will notice open doors/closed doors, changed envirnonment, like crates blocking his patrol path or a rope arrow leading into the toilet, etc. But more so other NPC's who cross their patrol path will be missed and searched for and eventually reported.

Realistic first person/third person mode (Short and sweet) You can see your lower body in first person mode. If your foot touches light, chances are high you might get noticed.

However if you think this would let you fail in every single mission, I might throw you a little bone there. Remember the city in thief deadly shadows? I don't know if it was just me, but the city guards instantly could differentiate noises and short glimpses of normal citizens and thieves. Come to think of it, it would be really difficult to program the AI to react to that correct. But well, unlike Hitman Thief isn't about hiding in plain sight and I never really cared about the city that much, so I don't care much about this one. Now to the easiest to implement of the features: Guards with helmets can't be knocked out in higher difficulties or wake up after a certain amount of time/mission scripts. I don't care much about that since hardcore Thieves won't knock him out anyway, but just saying.

Do you have any more ideas to make Thief more realistic?