PDA

View Full Version : VIKTORIA - could she return in Thief?



Jilly The Taffer
16th May 2009, 17:30
Just speculating really, but wouldn't it be cool if our beloved Nymph returned?

Yes, she exploded into a huge plant, which then got consumed by vegetation-eating gas.

BUT

Was ALL of the plant consumed?
The highest pagan shamans/priestesses could gather around her death place and using all their pagan magic, could they somehow, bring her back?

OR

Is she immortal, remember, she isn't human. She's a nymph, and I've heard that Nymphs can spirit from plant/tree to plant/tree.
(remember in that cutscene in MA? When she appears before Garrett, wasn't she at first, just a few leaves blowing in the wind?)
So, when she exploded, could she have spirited out of Soulforge and to a nearby mansion garden or something?

AND

In the aforementioned cutscene in MA, wasn't that in fact in the Maw of Chaos?
Which means that Viktoria resides there, a different realm.
Which means that when she exploded, she could have just been re-sent back into the Maw.

Anyway, those are just my rambling theories :whistle:

Your ideas?

KuBiLaY17
16th May 2009, 18:45
as much as most of us would like to see her back in the series, it wont happen. she was in the first 2 series. If she had survived she would have reappeared in thief ds. But maybe thief 4 wont be after thief ds, maybe a prequel. or maybe it wont have garrett in it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
16th May 2009, 19:44
I obviously hold a biased view, but I don't believe that Viktoria "died" - not in any real sense of the word and especially as she is not human. So, yes, I think she could return in T4.

I consider that she merely retreated back to her roots and rests in a state of slumber and dormancy. Plantlife can remain dormant for thousands of years. During dormancy, growth stops and plants remains in a state of rest until good growing conditions return. They have evolved a range of strategies for thriving in challenging environments or surviving unusual conditions for long periods of time.

In each fragment of root or tiniest seed lies the fierce force of life - the drive within them is stronger than any other on our planet: that to "survive".

Yes, Viktoria lives.... :)


"Nature is often hidden, sometimes overcome, seldom extinguished."
- Francis Bacon

StalinsGhost
16th May 2009, 20:54
For a planet woman she was hawt.

Bring her back! So long as it's a logical return.

Terr
16th May 2009, 20:56
If she does come back, it'll be of the "took me years to recover in the ruins of soulforge" style return. 'Course, that's assuming there was some way for a spore etc. to escape ground-zero for the mutox.

Perhaps it is more likely we'd see Viktoria's "daughter" from some mystic funky-fruit left behind before she left which finally finishes germinating.

She certainly aren't active in TDS because that's Dyan's job.

huzi73
16th May 2009, 21:27
Hey taffers,notice that TMA was the complete opposite of TDP?In TDP,the Pagans became super strong,which resulted in Garret turning to the Hammers for help (as was suggested by the keepers methinks)in TMA,the Mechanists (basically a branch of extreme right wing Hammers)became a force,which resulted in Garret turning to the Pagans for assistence.Pretty much similar in concept.I feel,Viktoria should return,(if EM does resurrect her,please dont let us know beforehand,let us play the final game and be totally shocked/surprised to discover her) But what about the Trickster?The only super villain which sucked *** bigtime,was the final boss/old hag from TDS.Karras rocked.(please DONT feed us some bull***** and make him reappear thankyou..)(Thoug id love to see the return of the Mechanists)

Platinumoxicity
16th May 2009, 21:54
It would be nice to have this big memorial shrine built by the pagans inside the ruins of Soulforge, this large concentration of plants and vines growing out of the rust, where the pagans go to pay their respects.

CurtX
16th May 2009, 22:38
Since ghosts and apparitions are not new to the series, she could always make a return in that format.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th May 2009, 00:07
^
Except she isn't human, she's a tree spirit, and as long as the Earth/nature exists, so does she.

Viktoria could easily return as a clone of herself. Many plants clone themselves naturally to reproduce by sending a small shoot-like structure, called a runner, along the soil and this grows into a new separate plant that is genetically identical to the original plant. In other words, it is a clone. Technical term is 'vegetative propagation' - the process whereby a stem or root that is in contact with soil makes an exact replica of itself and this can be obtained without production of seeds or spores. Natural vegetative reproduction is mostly a process found in herbaceous and woody perennial plants, the latter fitting Viktoria perfectly. In a sense, this process is not one of reproduction but one of survival and expansion of biomass of the individual. It is, therefore, quite feasible to consider that after Viktoria sacrificed herself at Soulforge, the explosion that ensued would easily have spread organic matter far and wide.

Terr
17th May 2009, 03:05
It is, therefore, quite feasible to consider that after Viktoria sacrificed herself at Soulforge, the explosion that ensued would easily have spread organic matter far and wide.

While I could certainly see a "Viktoria as embodied spirit rather than plant-entity" angle, I have to disagree with the survivability of the Soulforge ending. We know that rust-gas doesn't have explosive effects from the cutscenes, it's more of a grey-goo scenario.

So it suggests the seals in Soulforge held, which in turns suggests everything inside got scoured clean. I highly doubt the cathedral leaked. And if it did leak because of pressure, whatever came out would have been full of rust-gas.

Now, turn on your "cut-scene vision" and read along:

Scene: Abandoned (and rumored cursed) ruins of soulforge, years later. The camera pans over twisted, rusted metal and earth in the neglected site.
A large corroded metal jar begins unscrewing it's top... from the inside. A a vine slowly forces it's way out, pluging down into the soil.

Zahr Dalsk
17th May 2009, 04:31
I feel, personally, that judging by the way the Pagans seemed to work - emphasis on nature, life, etc, Viktoria (and the Leafie Lord) could certainly return, just as the plants regrow every year in spring.

@huzi: I'm not sure the Mechanists were right-wing. Aside from Karras, most of them seemed very progressive, and embraced things like gender equality and technological advancement. Not very right-wing.

Terr
17th May 2009, 08:22
Right/Left isn't really a feature of the Mechanist vs. Trickster extremes, with the sole exception of environmental issues.

And, OK, maybe you could argue that the Pagans are more accepting of "other races"... ;)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th May 2009, 09:51
While I could certainly see a "Viktoria as embodied spirit rather than plant-entity" angle, I have to disagree with the survivability of the Soulforge ending. We know that rust-gas doesn't have explosive effects from the cutscenes, it's more of a grey-goo scenario.

So it suggests the seals in Soulforge held, which in turns suggests everything inside got scoured clean. I highly doubt the cathedral leaked. And if it did leak because of pressure, whatever came out would have been full of rust-gas.

Now, turn on your "cut-scene vision" and read along:

Scene: Abandoned (and rumored cursed) ruins of soulforge, years later. The camera pans over twisted, rusted metal and earth in the neglected site.
A large corroded metal jar begins unscrewing it's top... from the inside. A a vine slowly forces it's way out, pluging down into the soil.

As a 'tree nymph' (dryad/druidess) she embodies both spirit and plant entity. She is also a shape-shifter.
I used the term 'explosion' to describe the physical release of energy (matter/gases etc), not to suggest a 'bomb'-like effect - so whether we call it grey-goo or not, it makes no matter.
Yes, we can assume that the seals of Soulforge remained intact, but when I said 'far and wide' I meant within Soulforge - under every nook and cranny, inside the frames of the window panes, beneath the cracks in the stone flooring where soil is the foundation - the smallest element of her can survive (as nature shows us to be true), so I don't believe every trace of Viktoria's organic matter was obliterated. All these possibilities remain feasible...

I like your cut-scene scenario which entertains my suggestions that she is not dead, so that's always cool. :cool:
However, how do you suppose that what may be left of Viktoria is now to be found inside a sealed metal jar?

Platinumoxicity
17th May 2009, 10:06
She could return as the same person, with the exact same appearance, but she wouldn't remember anything about Garrett or the Eye or the Mechanists. Dyan, Larkspur and Garrett would be like: "Oh, taffin' Cripes, do we have to teach you everything all over again?" :) They would have to try to make her remember.

Terr
17th May 2009, 16:59
However, how do you suppose that what may be left of Viktoria is now to be found inside a sealed metal jar?

A figure darts between columns, as cold mechanical eyes turn left and right, whirring with menace. Reaching a small room, you see the shadowy figure search left and right. The figure steels itself, and plunges a claw-like tendril into it's own belly, muffling the sound and pausing to see if it was heard.

As a green glow begins to seep, a grapefruit-sized object (http://agraklanka.com/img/6a00c2252887de8e1d00c225283e1df219-320pi.jpg) is pulled out, soft yellow and green hues revealing a cowl with eyes that look back, glowing in kind. Whirring and clanking noises rise, from outside the room, and the scene is interrupted. The object is swiftly placed inside a cylindrical metal container, the top screwed on tightly by a hand whose tendril-fingers twist tightly, maintaining their grip on the metal through more than two full rotations.

Cut to the shadowy figure disappearing through the doorway. Abandoned below the table, a cylindrical canister embossed with the emblem of a gear.

Smooogy
17th May 2009, 18:01
Victoria's character seemed to draw her power from the Trickster, who died, and he was a GOD. If he can't come back, why should she able to, other than the fact that we like her?

The rust gas would have completely obliterated every trace of her. The only stretch (and it would be one) would be for a clone of herself, or a perhaps a child, to have been left behind with the Pagans before she went on her suicide mission.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th May 2009, 22:22
A figure darts between columns, as cold mechanical eyes turn left and right, whirring with menace. Reaching a small room, you see the shadowy figure search left and right. The figure steels itself, and plunges a claw-like tendril into it's own belly, muffling the sound and pausing to see if it was heard.

As a green glow begins to seep, a grapefruit-sized object (http://agraklanka.com/img/6a00c2252887de8e1d00c225283e1df219-320pi.jpg) is pulled out, soft yellow and green hues revealing a cowl with eyes that look back, glowing in kind. Whirring and clanking noises rise, from outside the room, and the scene is interrupted. The object is swiftly placed inside a cylindrical metal container, the top screwed on tightly by a hand whose tendril-fingers twist tightly, maintaining their grip on the metal through more than two full rotations.

Cut to the shadowy figure disappearing through the doorway. Abandoned below the table, a cylindrical canister embossed with the emblem of a gear.

Extremely well written, thank you for this most adequate explanation. :thumb:





Victoria's character seemed to draw her power from the Trickster, who died, and he was a GOD. If he can't come back, why should she able to, other than the fact that we like her?

The rust gas would have completely obliterated every trace of her. The only stretch (and it would be one) would be for a clone of herself, or a perhaps a child, to have been left behind with the Pagans before she went on her suicide mission.

I understand your conclusions from what we know of the events in T1 & 2 but I am trying to think outside the box (because we can) and suggest different ways as to why it might be feasible to think that she (and, yes, even the Woodsie Lord) could come back in T4. It makes for interesting debate in any case... let's continue. :)

Now, when you say the Trickster/Woodsie Lord/Constantine can't come back - who said that? No character, parchment or book has ever stated this as conclusive fact. You suppose this from general logic (of which I completely understand, of course, because we see him fall and 'die') but the Trickster is from a magical realm within this game and not governed by our own laws of time and space and physics. Now, when you say he is dead... I can only view that as refering to his outer persona/guises rather than his inner powers. Each are two different things. I believe it is only his (dark) power that was destroyed (or at least harnessed) - that part is clear. But as to whether he is "gone for good" is open for speculation, particularly as he holds the power to shapeshift. Perhaps he has only retreated, to scheme yet another plan and rise once again. As god of nature and chaos, one can naturally assume that he will always continue to exist... somewhere, somehow. That's my conjecture and assumption based on what little evidence we have as to what the Order of the Vine actually means.

Viktoria didn't draw her power directly from the Trickster, she drew it from the Earth. After the Trickster's subsequent death (if we agree on this), Viktoria continued on to lead the Pagans and was clearly in possession of all her powers. The Pagans worshipped the Trickster as their main male diety, nothing else. In Paganism, the divine is female and male and therefore there is always a Goddess as well as a God. If we are to view the Trickster as a God, then Viktoria was a Goddess. Pagan religion endows power in all things equally although many Dianic groups (one of the most ancient) worship only the Goddess and those that do acknowledge the God see the male deity as only a part of the mystery of the Goddess. Pre-Christian societies (in the real world) were very often matriarchal with women holding leading roles as goddesses, warrior-queens, lofty high priestesses and prominent spokespersons.

The Maw of Chaos could hold a lot more than has been revealed to us. For example, it isn't clear as to whether it was just a "gateway" into another even more magical realm, probably only accessible via portals yet to be discovered. We know the MofC continued to exist after the Trickster's demise because Viktoria took it over and even altered it. Now, in T: DS the MofC is not seen, for whatever reasons. This absence of insight means that there is plenty of scope for the devs to return to the MofC and give continuation to it.

In relation to the rust gas, I still don't believe it would have obliterated every trace of Viktoria. This is because even herbicide/weedkillers cannot iradicate 100% of all plantlife it is designed to destroy. Organic matter is extremely resilient. Furthermore, given that Soulforge was a pretty big place and that the gas would have travelled quite a way further from its original source (but still within its walls), it would have become diluted/weakened as it mixed with other natural gases in the atmosphere. This diluted state means that it is less powerful at its furthest point... perhaps somewhere there lies Viktoria in dormant state?

It's fun to speculate... :cool:

Mr. Perfect
17th May 2009, 22:23
Uhm, not really. You could probably come up with a way to make it work, but it would feel like some sort of soap opera. "I didn't really die in that horrible explosion, because you see, I had AMNESIA! It is only now that I have regained my memory and come home!" You could then introduce the evil twin, the brain tumor, and possibly a illegitimate child with some cousin twice removed who's married to her best friend.:rasp:

That and she needn't pluck any more eyes out of Garrett's head! :eek:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th May 2009, 22:31
Uhm, not really. You could probably come up with a way to make it work, but it would feel like some sort of soap opera. "I didn't really die in that horrible explosion, because you see, I had AMNESIA! It is only now that I have regained my memory and come home!" You could then introduce the evil twin, the brain tumor, and possibly a illegitimate child with some cousin twice removed who's married to her best friend.:rasp:

That and she needn't pluck any more eyes out of Garrett's head! :eek:

Yes, but such a scenario suggests a human counterpart. Neither the Trickster or Viktoria were human. :p

She sought revenge when she plucked out his eye, she had suffered very much. :(
That aside, she more than made up for it and Garrett in return held deep respect and affection for her. :)

DarthEnder
17th May 2009, 22:46
She's dead Jim.

If she's not dead, it kind of makes her sacrifice at the end of T2 meaningless.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th May 2009, 22:53
If she's not dead, it kind of makes her sacrifice at the end of T2 meaningless.

Not necessarily. Her sacrifice would mean triggering a state of dormancy that she may not have wished for. We can call that 'death' if you like, but in plants (spores and seeds), death is really just a long sleep that can equate to hundreds or even thousands of years of non-activity; but it is still alive. A plant must 'rot' away completely (microscopically) before it can be considered truly dead. ;)

Smooogy
17th May 2009, 23:35
Not necessarily. Her sacrifice would mean triggering a state of dormancy that she may not have wished for. We can call that 'death' if you like, but in plants (spores and seeds), death is really just a long sleep that can equate to hundreds or even thousands of years of non-activity; but it is still alive. A plant must 'rot' away completely (microscopically) before it can be considered truly dead. ;)

I read every bit of your well written posts Viktoria ;)

And you certainly have a creative mind, and there's nothing wrong with that! But, the other guy made a point I was also thinking... If she's not dead, what about the emotional ending/sacrifice at soulfourge? We don't really want to overuse Viktoria do we? Or at least, insult the intelligence... Well not really insult the gamers, but you know what I mean. She dies in a magnificent display to stop Karras and if she comes back easily, that makes not a lot of sense.

That being said, I'm all for the Trickster God to return! If he can return like you say, bring both of em back! They were the most interesting characters anyway. Yeah, you would think it would be difficult to kill a god, but its determined by what your definition of a god is. At the end of thief the dark project, a keeper says that the trickster is dead. Surely the wise keepers would be well versed in the ways of deities one would think, and not make a blanket statement. If they knew the Trickster would always be there like you say, then they would have added some kind of ominous "beware the darkness of the eternal woods!" Message to indicate he might be lurkin

I would love for Viktoria to come back, but she admitted that her powers were weak when not in her forest. The way soulforge got a rust gas enema, I mean, come on, how in the world could she survive that? If only a tiny bit of viktoria is needed to survive and return, then I tell ya, the hammers got their work cut out for em :p That's like trying to fight John Carpenter's "The Thing!" You gotta destroy every single bit of her/it to make sure its gone! Looks like a good use for the old hammer smelting pots!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
18th May 2009, 08:33
Thank you. :)

Yes, perhaps I could be accused of letting my imagination run away with me. :o
It is fun to speculate and perhaps if Viktoria is gone for good (*sobs*), then some sort of shrine in her memory would be a nice touch to see in T4. :)

Smooogy
18th May 2009, 09:01
Thank you. :)

Yes, perhaps I could be accused of letting my imagination run away with me. :o
It is fun to speculate and perhaps if Viktoria is gone for good (*sobs*), then some sort of shrine in her memory would be a nice touch to see in T4. :)



I want another wood nymph at least! The Pagans are the coolest and she was a very memorable character, plus her transformation from evil in the first game to ally in the second was a neat twist. :thumb:

I've got the same problem with Shodan from System Shock :rolleyes: I want a System Shock 3 so badly, but old Shodan probably will never see the light of day! I'd say its a better chance we see Viktoria in T4 than Shodan in a SS3 :( ;)

You seem to know a lot about paganism and that interests me. Did you know that the word Villain was derived from a pagan word for forest dweller? LoL The Romans used the word "forest dweller" to make pagans seem like the baddies and now we still see the remnants of it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
18th May 2009, 11:07
Haha, yes, I am sure many would like to see more nymphs. :D

I agree about the good twist and it paid homage to the power of 'opposites' - the dark and light, the bad the good, the black and white, that exists within us all. Both are equal and neither can exist without the other and it is this balance which makes me question not the 'physical death' of certain deities in Thief, but only their loss of power and influence.

I am by no means an expert but I have extensively read theology, religion, classical mythology and philosophy for many years and my personal preference (from what I have learned) always favours nature-based belief systems, not because they are the oldest, of course, but because they seem to be the most sensible all round. The more we respect nature, even in our use of technology, the wiser I think we can become. Later religions seem to contradict the underlying message of, what I would call, 'spirituality' in terms of balance and equality.

Yes, the term 'Villain' derives from the Latin root "villanus" meaning someone/thing who is 'bound to the soil', later definitions included heathen, peasant, serf, farm, country dwelling, base or low-born rustic etc, up to its current day usage. Indeed, the 'baddie' scenario illustrates perfectly the intention to snuff out paganistic beliefs. The parallels between Christianity and paganism are obvious to see, far too many to mention in fact (I could write pages!) but as one example, consider all the Christian festivals that have their original roots in paganism. There can be no denial that the adoption of paganistic practices by later religions was to attract followers, to make the transition an easier one. Even Christian churches were built upon the foundations of pagan shrines. It was a relentless onslaught of an intended agenda. :(

kin
18th May 2009, 11:23
One thing I would love if victoria comes back is that there will be some levels with dense vegetation. In a new engine it will be marvellous.

Smooogy
18th May 2009, 15:24
Haha, yes, I am sure many would like to see more nymphs. :D

I agree about the good twist and it paid homage to the power of 'opposites' - the dark and light, the bad the good, the black and white, that exists within us all. Both are equal and neither can exist without the other and it is this balance which makes me question not the 'physical death' of certain deities in Thief, but only their loss of power and influence.

I am by no means an expert but I have extensively read theology, religion, classical mythology and philosophy for many years and my personal preference (from what I have learned) always favours nature-based belief systems, not because they are the oldest, of course, but because they seem to be the most sensible all round. The more we respect nature, even in our use of technology, the wiser I think we can become. Later religions seem to contradict the underlying message of, what I would call, 'spirituality' in terms of balance and equality.

Yes, the term 'Villain' derives from the Latin root "villanus" meaning someone/thing who is 'bound to the soil', later definitions included heathen, peasant, serf, farm, country dwelling, base or low-born rustic etc, up to its current day usage. Indeed, the 'baddie' scenario illustrates perfectly the intention to snuff out paganistic beliefs. The parallels between Christianity and paganism are obvious to see, far too many to mention in fact (I could write pages!) but as one example, consider all the Christian festivals that have their original roots in paganism. There can be no denial that the adoption of paganistic practices by later religions was to attract followers, to make the transition an easier one. Even Christian churches were built upon the foundations of pagan shrines. It was a relentless onslaught of an intended agenda. :(


Yeah I learned about world religions in a class I had in college and it opened my eyes to some interesting events throughout the ages. One of them being that Christianity seems to have "lifted" *coughs - no one kill me* a great many supernatural ideas from other religions. Look up the virgin birth and you'll see what I mean :whistle:

xXFl4meXx
18th May 2009, 16:41
Yeah I learned about world religions in a class I had in college and it opened my eyes to some interesting events throughout the ages. One of them being that Christianity seems to have "lifted" *coughs - no one kill me* a great many supernatural ideas from other religions. Look up the virgin birth and you'll see what I mean :whistle:

How dare thee! You HERETIC! BURN!

What did you watch Zeitgeist or something? :P Oh shiz nits.. I shouldnt be going off topic.. But yes.. Viktoria should be in Thief 4... & if she wont.. I am going to cry till I cant cry no more.. Actually.. Viktoria isnt as important as the Trickster.. Yeah hes the real badass..

HellionKal
18th May 2009, 16:46
Viktoria is dead, gone, ascended, mere rust-dust littering the ruins of Soulforge Cathedral, having sacrified herself so that Garrett would seize the day. Nothing could possibly change that. EM should leave it that way and concentrate instead on the creation of brand new but equally interesting characters.

Terr
18th May 2009, 16:47
I think the etymology of "villain" is less "bound to the soil" and more "farm-hand".

It doesn't describe a relationship to the natural world, but instead referred to socioeconomic class distinctions during the feudal ages.

Belboz
18th May 2009, 16:48
As viktoria was a plant based nymph she could have given a seed of herself to other nymphs to look after, it would take time for her to grow again, which is why she wasn't in thief 3, but after a while viktoria would be fully formed back as the nymph she was.

Smooogy
18th May 2009, 17:09
As viktoria was a plant based nymph she could have given a seed of herself to other nymphs to look after, it would take time for her to grow again, which is why she wasn't in thief 3, but after a while viktoria would be fully formed back as the nymph she was.


Now that's the right idea if you want a Viktoria replacement! It makes sense and is no more outlandish than some of the other developments thus far. :thumb:

Smooogy
18th May 2009, 17:24
How dare thee! You HERETIC! BURN!

What did you watch Zeitgeist or something? :P Oh shiz nits.. I shouldnt be going off topic.. But yes.. Viktoria should be in Thief 4... & if she wont.. I am going to cry till I cant cry no more.. Actually.. Viktoria isnt as important as the Trickster.. Yeah hes the real badass..

:cool:

Alex50
18th May 2009, 17:48
the appearance in temple Hammer new leader, but without fanaticism Karras. Which newly enters the mechanical device in life of the city. Garret keeps the balance. Finds the way to return Victoria. Therefor that to hear this secret, possible use the artifact - an EYE (he ancient, a great deal saw, and origin his unknown) 1-3 missions. Visit the Temple Hammer - searching for of the subject keeping spirit to Victoria. Visit Wood pagan - searching for subject required for ritual, marmosets and alive tree not pleased visit. Undertaking the ritual in heart wood.
the subject keeping spirit to Victoria will for the best be a stone to look like precious (the type emerald). Hammerit's taking away ruins of the plant has found and have sent him in its treasure house. The Gas destroyed the metal, alive body and plants. The Stone he can not damage. And stone this symbol land. А from the land grow all plants. The Good symbolism of the nature.
Konstantin can be not reborn. He is destroyed by Chaos during wrong called on ritual with Eye. He was absorbed its element.
The Rebirth to Victoria interesting, but this must be an initial episode of the plot. Allowing understand world Garrett. But do on this base of the plot uninteresting - not "TMA: episode two"

Terr
18th May 2009, 18:42
Yeeeeeahhh, I'd work on proofreading that one a bit. Or not using babelfish. I have a rough idea what you mean, but I'm still trying to figure out this "showering" business.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
18th May 2009, 22:50
I think the etymology of "villain" is less "bound to the soil" and more "farm-hand".

It doesn't describe a relationship to the natural world, but instead referred to socioeconomic class distinctions during the feudal ages.

I don't want to 'fight over words', (I love puns! :D) but I think you have misunderstood me. :)
I initially referred to the term 'villanus', not 'villein' and at base level it strictly means "bound to the soil/land" because it derives from the Latin word villa (farm, country home, estate). In relation to a person (and socioeconomic class distinction) the later appropriate term used was 'villein" meaning serf or peasant, ie "someone - who is bound to the soil (of a villa)" and who is owned by the feudal lord. This class of peasants were called the 'villani' and it has long been recognized by scholars that 'villanus' cannot be fairly equated with the 'villein' of later times.



As viktoria was a plant based nymph she could have given a seed of herself to other nymphs to look after, it would take time for her to grow again, which is why she wasn't in thief 3, but after a while viktoria would be fully formed back as the nymph she was.

Yeah, that sounds good. :thumb:

Botlas
19th May 2009, 00:03
Seeing as any explanation of how she comes back would boil down to "it was magic," yes, I do think she could return.

Should she return? No, I think her sacrifice at the end of Metal Age was part of what made the ending so good. She uses Garrett in Dark Project, and then helps him in Metal Age. It's a good twist, and would be made less interesting if it turns out she didn't actually die.

GmanPro
19th May 2009, 00:10
Being one of my favorite characters from the series, I'd like to at least read something about her in Thief 4.

Terr
19th May 2009, 00:46
I initially referred to the term 'villanus', not 'villein' and at base level it strictly means "bound to the soil/land" because it derives from the Latin word villa (farm, country home, estate).

OK, but in that case, while a related word, it's not where we got "Villain" from.

The whole "bad guy" angle is attached to the serfs, not the land. The pejorative-ization of "villain" wasn't a denigration of nature or anti-pagan sentiment, but instead an expression of class conflict and distrust of the unwashed masses. (With a healthy helping of "The amount of wealth you have is indicative of your virtue" assumptions.)

Nate
19th May 2009, 00:58
I liked her too. But I think the depth of her sacrifice (and how she was killed) prevents this from being viable.

Myth
19th May 2009, 02:35
"Shh! Quiets you! Them manfools bes all abouts!" The Shamans' angry stare glared in to the moonlight night, and struck primal fear in Fafret's heart. He nodded and kept his head down, his feet flapping softly against the cobblestone floor. The night was cold, quiet and only the wind could be heard, howling in the narrow streets of the City. Some windows still shed dim yellow light, but all the doors were barred for the night and no one but Fafret and Ceila could be seen moving about.

The shaman had long red hair, braided and tangled with sweetroot blossoms and plumsie buds. Her body was slim and adorned with a robe of leaves and vine, and her footsteps light and nimble. Fafret liked the shaman, he had urges towards her, but was reluctant to express them. "Shaman strong - scary. She hits poor Fafret's head hard. She doesn't wants to mate."

"Stops mumbling you foolsie! We bes near them Hammerfools!" She was right - in the distance, a patrol of two large Hammerites made their way in to the imposing ruin of Soulforge cathedral - a dark, ominous shape, towering over the nearby buildings and soaking up the moonlight with it's twisted features. The Hammerites, mail-clad and armed, walked in the streets and talked quietly between each other, their footsteps echoing around the alleyways.

Somehow, Ceila and Fafret managed to evade them, and made their way in to the courtyard of the cathedral ruins. In the abandoned yard they saw the shy attempts of shrubs and mosses to reclaim some ground for the Woodsie Lord, after the destruction of the evil Karras and his stronghold. But still, most of the wide, tile covered area, was barren and gray. In the distance, a green light blinked, near the massive gates, sealed with wards by the Hammers.

The pagans rushed down, eager and trembling - Fafret's heart was beating faster and faster as they approached the entrance to the evil place. Before the massive steel gates, they met with five more women, all wearing attire similar to Ceila's, and all wielding the staffs of the Woodsie Magics, and three more men, armed and naked from the waist up. Fafret knew some of them, but kept quiet and let the shamans talk.

"You bes late Ceila! We cannot waiters for you all night. Them Hammerfools scurry about, like rabid dogs."

Ceila's face darkened, her emerald eyes gleaming with anger, but she remained silent. Fafret decided he did not want to get himself between the arguing shamans, and just drew his bow and waited. A mosquito landed on his arm and started sucking blood, which made the young pagan grin, revealing a missing front tooth. "Looksie - a bugsie." Without pause he grabbed the mosquito and ate it, making a loud sucking sound.

"Quiets you straw brain, don't brings them Hammers to us!" The older shaman was a stern, white haired woman with a wrinkled face, half covered with ritualistic tattoos.

Once again, Fafret looked down with shame, observing his own feet - hairy, with dried mud covering them up to the knees. "I bes no straw brain" - he thought. But then he remembered the sweet plumsies he had stored back in the shelter, and swiftly took his mind off the shaman.

The group of women chanted something with low voices and their staffs glowed with green light, as the crystals at their tips light up, resembling will-o-wisps. With a loud "clank", the ward sealing the gate broke off, and released the massive doors. Fafret had never been so scared in his life - when the massive doors swung open, he nearly soiled himself, expecting the deathrust to come and melt off his face.

However, the inside of Soulforge was dark, littered with broken gears and dead tin-men, and covered with dust. Thankfully, it was just regular dust, the one that makes you sneeze, not the one that makes your body look like a plumsie that had stayed too much in the sun.

Still, Fafret was very reluctant to put his feet on the floor, but could not show fear before Celia. The others quickly followed, and two of the other men light torches, their light barely reaching the other end of the vast chamber. Old machinery and tools lay around scattered and rusted, and the ceiling hid in darkness high above their heads. In the middle there was a patch of moss, the only greenery that had survived the horror.

"It bes here, i knows it! Here bes where Viktoria fell to thems tin men!" Celia's voice echoed in the large chamber with excitement. The others started mumbling, some even knelt and touched the blessed patch - it was moss beyond doubt, cool and fresh to the touch, as if it had grown alongside the bark of a tree deep in to the forest.

"Praise bes to the Woodsie Lord, we must starters!" The old shaman brought forth her staff and started singing, the younger ones accompanying her with their melodic voices. One of the men brought out a small wooden flute, another - a hand drum. Their music flowed, filling the chamber with life. The shaman sung of rain, of forests and foxers, and bears, and wolvers, of light and moss and mud and river, the melody flowed and the music became louder. Fafret and the others started dancing in a circle, shaking their weapons with the enchanting rhythm.

Slowly, a shy little twig sprouted from the moss patch, raising towards the green light shed by the six staffs above. Soon, another one papered, than a third, fourth and fifth.. They sprouted leaves, and grew higher, almost two elbows in length. The ritual continued for some time, the vines slowly growing and widening, a leaf sprouting hear, a bud - there.

Fafret had never been happier, and the sweet music and song made his heart light and free of care. The patch of moss widened, the air became colder and more humid, and the smell of fresh, damp soil filled the air.

"Whats this - foul witches and worshipers of the Trickster! FALL TO MINE HAMMER!" The shout came from the entrance - two Hammertes had discovered them. The steel clad men rushed forward, their bared hammers demanding blood and flesh - Fafret stopped dancing, along with the other three men, and drew his bow, his fingers trembling when they released an arrow. The flint headed stick could not pierce the thick mail of the first Hammerite, and if it were not for one of the others intercepting him, he would have broken Fafret's head like a ripe watermelon.

"Comes manfools! Here bes your grave!" Jubrek, one of the older and more experienced warriors, attacked with his staff, striking at the ankle of the other Hammer, bringing him down flat on his back. The first one, however, managed to strike at his opponent and broke his ribs with a hideous crack, sending him flying to the side. "AHAA! SWIFT JUSTICE UPON THEE VILLAIN!" His triumphant voice enraged Fafret, and the young pagan threw himself at the manfool, bare handed and with a mad glow in his eyes.

"Come then, lay thine self upon my anvil!" The Hammerite was strong, muscular and bearded. Before him, the soft cheeked pagan lad seemed like a child.

The blow came hard and faster than Fafret would have expected - pain burst forth in his mind like an explosion, as he felt his shoulder crack beneath the weight of the warhammer. As the lad fell down, he could see Celia and the other shamans still performing the ritual with zeal and determination.

The gentle twigs that had sprouted from the ground, now resembled a healthy tree, wrapped with vines and flowers, and two more extended downwards, almost like arms. "Woodsie lord helpers us, we does your will. Helpers us agains them manfools!" Fafret prayed with fervor, even if he was too young to have know the Woodsie Lord himself.

The battle still raged, Jubrek and the others now hard pressed against the Hammers - four more wretched tin men had made their way to the cathedral, drawn by the commotion. Much to Fafret's horror, a Hammerite priest was among them, flinging fiery hammer bolts at the pagan warriors, who fell, one by one, against the overwhelming odds.

Every breath gave Fafret a sharp pain, and his left hand was completely useless. Tears rolled down the lad's face, desperation overwhelming him as he saw a large Hammerite swing at one of the shamans, bursting her skull in an explosion of blood, brain and bone. "Noooo! - his voice was weak and gagged with tears, as he saw a second Hammer make his way towards Celia. - You runs Celia, runs now!" As the heavy steel head of the warhammer swung down in a wide ark, Fafret could not turn his eyes away. It was then, he realized he loved his shaman.

"BEGONE MANFOOL!" - A voice strong and melodious erupted, as a hand made of vine and twig burst forth and knocked the Hammerite warrior several feet back, causing him to miss his strike on Celia. On the patch of moss, stood a beautiful female, six feet tall and made of all manner of plants and forest things. She was beutiful beyond words, and Fafret did not know weather to laugh or cry. It was Viktoria, just as he remembered her from his childhood. Viktoria had returned.

(disclaimer, English is not my native language)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
19th May 2009, 12:47
^
@ Myth: This is excellent writing! :cool:
To add that English is not your first language, I bow to your talent. :worship:

***


OK, but in that case, while a related word, it's not where we got "Villain" from.
Absolutely right. :thumb:


The whole "bad guy" angle is attached to the serfs, not the land. The pejorative-ization of "villain" wasn't a denigration of nature or anti-pagan sentiment, but instead an expression of class conflict and distrust of the unwashed masses. (With a healthy helping of "The amount of wealth you have is indicative of your virtue" assumptions.)

Correct again. No disagreement with this. :)

Myth
19th May 2009, 13:41
This thread inspired me to write something on the go :) Still, if Viktoria should return that's the way i imagine it happening. Sounds plausible, yes?

Ishikawa
19th May 2009, 15:07
Okay i would like Victoria back as much as the next guy. She simply was one of the best characters ever. Hmm, imagine her being back for a while but also being scared of Garretts reaction to it (think Spike in Angel Season 5). Well, i for one would like a good surprise like that.

Teasza
19th May 2009, 16:10
I liked her too. But I think the depth of her sacrifice (and how she was killed) prevents this from being viable.
I absolutely adore Viktoria, but this is my sticking point. What was so affecting about the Sabotage At Soulforge scene was that she and Garrett finally reconciled - got even, if you will. After all the animosity between them in Dark Project and the earlier stages of Metal Age, it was fascinating to see their relationship growing to a point where Viktoria sacrifices herself for him and the City, and Garrett seems genuinely upset about it. To me, bringing her back cheapens her sacrifice.

That doesn't mean she can't still feature in a Thief plotline, though. Flashbacks, letters, cutscenes... oh, and if Thief:4 turns out to be a prequel, you don't need to worry about her being dead at all ;)

BoldEnglishman
20th May 2009, 23:42
Viktoria, thou arguments are impressive. I came into this thread thinking "nah, she's gone", however as you have said not even weedkiller can 100% annihilate that which it is designed to destroy.

I think there is every bit of possibility that Victoria may return. However, I must say that if Victoria returns... so must the Trickster. He was by far my most favourite character in all of the Thief games. I am a sucker for those who demonstrate awesome power, and demonstrate he did! Furthermore, some people believe Constantine was merely 'possessed' by the spirit of the Trickster. This would suggest that while his physical avatar was defeated, his spirit lingers on (like Sargeras in the Warcraft universe). Yet another theory is that the Hammerites defeated the Trickster in previous times, yet he returned for the Dark Project - so if he returned once before, he may as well return again.

Now, on with the speculation! One thing I have always wondered, is... was the Trickster really a god? The beauty of the Thief universe is that the player can interpret events in a number of ways. The main issue at hand is that the word "god" is quite subjective - how does one define a god? There is no surefire checklist that you can just go through to see if something is divine or not, and even if there was, I don't believe the Trickster would meet all of these criteria.

1. Both the Hammerites and the Mechanists worship "The Master Builder", while the Pagans worship the Trickster. However, as is even stated in the 10 commandments, it is possible to worship something which is not divine in nature (so-called 'false idols'). You can worship basically anything you want - so long as the belief and the faith in this object of worship exists. It doesn't have to be divine... so... the Master Builder and the Trickster are not instantly considered "divine" simply because people worship them.

2. Even if the Master Builder was a divine god, we never ever see him or hear of him intervening in the life of the City at all - not even the Keepers mention him. However, we encounter the Trickster in the flesh (obviously), and the Keepers have several records of him (for example, when entering the Keeper Compound in the Old Quarter, the Keepers mention that "were the Trickster not opposed, he would bring destruction upon the entire City"). Clearly then, the Master Builder and the Trickster are not on the same level - the Master Builder might be a god, but this does not immediately mean that the Trickster is. While Garrett may call the Trickster a god... the Keepers (you know, those guys who are supposed to know everything) never refer to the Trickster as a god.

3. When skulking around Constantine's mansion, he seems to have quite a few books in his possession - books on magic and nature. Why would a god have any need for such useless objects? Surely, if the natural elements of the world are anchored to his presence, he would not need a book to tell him this or that.

4. Also, a god would not have to rely on artifacts to accomplish that what he wants. Surely a god is omnipotent - if the Trickster were a god, could he not just open up a portal to 'that other realm beyond the Maw' without the aid of the Eye? He is dependant on the Eye to finish the ritual - I didn't think a god needed to be dependant on anything.

5. Even though this is just my opinion, it is my belief that it is quite possible the Trickster was human. It is never stated anywhere that he isn't or wasn't. It is possible that the Trickster was simply a human mage who had acquired so much power that he practically was immortal. There are plenty of other fictional stories where mages have used magic to ascend to unfathomable heights, and while there is no evidence of gods existing in the Thief universe, there is heaps of evidence - even evidence the player encounters - of magic existing. Going back to definitions, magic is so loosely defined, that magic can basically do anything. The Trickster can shape shift, extend his own age (or become totally immortal), teleport, shape mountains, create deadly portals... all with the aid of magic. Humans wield magic in Thief as well - the Hand Brotherhood, Mechanist/Hammerite/Pagan priests, Keepers... so why not Constantine?

Now going into even further speculation, it is possible that the post of "the Trickster" existed before Constantine did. Just as Karras, towards the end of the Metal Age, started confusing himself with the Builder (almost declaring himself to be the physical manifestion of the Builder), so it is also possible that a human can usurp the position of the Trickster - declaring himself to be as such. If Constantine was so powerful to usurp this position, the frail minds of the Pagans are not going to deny him this position, and really believe that the Trickster has come into being. A good reference here is the series/movie Stargate... where countless billions of people are lulled into worshipping so-called 'gods' who are really just aliens with superior technology. Replace technology with magical powers, and Constantine can fit right in.

All of this can apply to Victoria as well - she might be human as well.

Smooogy
21st May 2009, 00:42
Unfortunately it causes problems in a storyline when you kill an important character and then have them return. It depletes their charisma because you're always thinking in the back of your head - well, if he/she dies again, they'll just find a way to defeat death again

Stath MIA
21st May 2009, 01:07
It would be awesome to see Viki come back but, nonetheless, it just isn't very plausible. I normally role my eyes when people get miraculously resurrected and Smooogy is right, it makes the character weaker at the core.

esme
21st May 2009, 11:41
but who would moderate the forum

;)

Smooogy
21st May 2009, 17:29
but who would moderate the forum

;)

Oh our dear Viktoria will always be here for us ;)

Why not have a Viktoria clone or daughter? I mentioned on a thread earlier that she could have left an important seed behind before she attempted her suicide mission at soulforge. I would buy that without too much resistance.

Dominus
22nd May 2009, 06:01
here's a modern Viktoria:
http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/14273490/batman-arkham-asylum/videos/batman_trl_freeflow_51509.html

kabatta
3rd Jun 2009, 17:07
What if the Trickster needed the book, the artefact, etcetera because the form encountered in the game was merely an incarnation of his. Same for Viktoria. From what I know incarnations are weaker than the original, and relatively distinct. I would find feasable a return by a possesion.

Hamadriyad
4th Jun 2009, 08:10
I don't want any resurrection. She died. Rest in peace.

huzi73
4th Jun 2009, 21:00
Viktoria, thou arguments are impressive. I came into this thread thinking "nah, she's gone", however as you have said not even weedkiller can 100% annihilate that which it is designed to destroy.

I think there is every bit of possibility that Victoria may return. However, I must say that if Victoria returns... so must the Trickster. He was by far my most favourite character in all of the Thief games. I am a sucker for those who demonstrate awesome power, and demonstrate he did! Furthermore, some people believe Constantine was merely 'possessed' by the spirit of the Trickster. This would suggest that while his physical avatar was defeated, his spirit lingers on (like Sargeras in the Warcraft universe). Yet another theory is that the Hammerites defeated the Trickster in previous times, yet he returned for the Dark Project - so if he returned once before, he may as well return again.

Now, on with the speculation! One thing I have always wondered, is... was the Trickster really a god? The beauty of the Thief universe is that the player can interpret events in a number of ways. The main issue at hand is that the word "god" is quite subjective - how does one define a god? There is no surefire checklist that you can just go through to see if something is divine or not, and even if there was, I don't believe the Trickster would meet all of these criteria.

1. Both the Hammerites and the Mechanists worship "The Master Builder", while the Pagans worship the Trickster. However, as is even stated in the 10 commandments, it is possible to worship something which is not divine in nature (so-called 'false idols'). You can worship basically anything you want - so long as the belief and the faith in this object of worship exists. It doesn't have to be divine... so... the Master Builder and the Trickster are not instantly considered "divine" simply because people worship them.

2. Even if the Master Builder was a divine god, we never ever see him or hear of him intervening in the life of the City at all - not even the Keepers mention him. However, we encounter the Trickster in the flesh (obviously), and the Keepers have several records of him (for example, when entering the Keeper Compound in the Old Quarter, the Keepers mention that "were the Trickster not opposed, he would bring destruction upon the entire City"). Clearly then, the Master Builder and the Trickster are not on the same level - the Master Builder might be a god, but this does not immediately mean that the Trickster is. While Garrett may call the Trickster a god... the Keepers (you know, those guys who are supposed to know everything) never refer to the Trickster as a god.

3. When skulking around Constantine's mansion, he seems to have quite a few books in his possession - books on magic and nature. Why would a god have any need for such useless objects? Surely, if the natural elements of the world are anchored to his presence, he would not need a book to tell him this or that.

4. Also, a god would not have to rely on artifacts to accomplish that what he wants. Surely a god is omnipotent - if the Trickster were a god, could he not just open up a portal to 'that other realm beyond the Maw' without the aid of the Eye? He is dependant on the Eye to finish the ritual - I didn't think a god needed to be dependant on anything.

5. Even though this is just my opinion, it is my belief that it is quite possible the Trickster was human. It is never stated anywhere that he isn't or wasn't. It is possible that the Trickster was simply a human mage who had acquired so much power that he practically was immortal. There are plenty of other fictional stories where mages have used magic to ascend to unfathomable heights, and while there is no evidence of gods existing in the Thief universe, there is heaps of evidence - even evidence the player encounters - of magic existing. Going back to definitions, magic is so loosely defined, that magic can basically do anything. The Trickster can shape shift, extend his own age (or become totally immortal), teleport, shape mountains, create deadly portals... all with the aid of magic. Humans wield magic in Thief as well - the Hand Brotherhood, Mechanist/Hammerite/Pagan priests, Keepers... so why not Constantine?

Now going into even further speculation, it is possible that the post of "the Trickster" existed before Constantine did. Just as Karras, towards the end of the Metal Age, started confusing himself with the Builder (almost declaring himself to be the physical manifestion of the Builder), so it is also possible that a human can usurp the position of the Trickster - declaring himself to be as such. If Constantine was so powerful to usurp this position, the frail minds of the Pagans are not going to deny him this position, and really believe that the Trickster has come into being. A good reference here is the series/movie Stargate... where countless billions of people are lulled into worshipping so-called 'gods' who are really just aliens with superior technology. Replace technology with magical powers, and Constantine can fit right in.

All of this can apply to Victoria as well - she might be human as well.

Good point(s).Mythos, write a book and I will buy it!I cant wait for her to return, 10 bucks says she does!

kaekaelyn
4th Jun 2009, 21:19
Somehow, I find a return of the Trickster much more plausible than a return of Viktoria, but I'll have to finish re-playing through TDP and TMA before I return with some storyline ideas :)

Aristofiles
27th Jun 2009, 14:16
I dont think the builder or the tricksters are gods at all. I think the builder is a saint and the trickster was a powerfull demon (one of many in the pagan mythology). Thay are both worshiped as gods though by thier followers (pagans and hammers)

Acorn
27th Jun 2009, 17:40
*
I don't think Victoria should return, she was pretty dead.

The pagans should get some new power beings and leaders. What about a woodsie council? They should also move back to the woodland villages.

They would have shamen chiefs and some representatives from the wilderness spirits. A couple new beings. Some Elf Lords.
How about a water nymph?
An ape beast could be one of the council chiefs. Imagine the dialogue there... :D

Hypevosa
29th Jun 2009, 02:12
Well the trickster could be as much a god as the norse gods... in that he isn't omnipotent or imortal, just special. Even the greek gods weren't omnipotent, and even their immortality could be compormised by a little hein's blood.

TheEye
4th Jul 2009, 09:56
she took Garret's eye... she is in a better place now -HELL! let her stay there!:naughty:

Hamadriyad
4th Jul 2009, 09:58
she took Garret's eye... she is in a better place now -HELL! let her stay there!:naughty:

Yes indeed.

Flashart
4th Jul 2009, 14:12
Larkspur is mentioned as violent and unstable. Maybe Dyan enlists Garrett's help in some kind of resurrection, or just a straight forward power struggle.

Mistress Vixen
1st Aug 2009, 16:11
I would like to see her return in Thief 4 as I felt she was a much underutilised character in the previous games

Hamadriyad
1st Aug 2009, 16:33
I don't want to see any dead character. Dead should stay dead. Rest in peace.

negative_len
1st Aug 2009, 18:55
Unless it's a prequel, in which case, green light ahead. Though in a shielded or cleverly constructed way, so as to fit in storyline-wise with TDP. Remember, at the start of TDP Garrett and Victoria could have known each other previously, it's not stated. Watch the movie.

My opinion? If Thiaf is a prequel, Victoria should be in it.

kabatta
1st Aug 2009, 19:18
Hah! Hah ha ha ha. Diane not good enough for you people?

hellwalker
1st Aug 2009, 19:28
mysterious sexy women will be our undoing.

negative_len
1st Aug 2009, 21:03
Hah! Hah ha ha ha. Diane not good enough for you people?

Who?

Hamadriyad
1st Aug 2009, 21:46
Dyan, also known as the Priestess of Wood or the Woodsie Priestess, was a pagan priestess and leader of the Order of the Vine after the death of Viktoria.

negative_len
2nd Aug 2009, 01:39
Oh, Dyan, right. Dyan I get.

You know, one thing that TDS was lacking in majorly was main faction characters. Even Inspector Drept was only mentioned once or twice and made one very brief storyline appearance. Dyan and Larkspur were practically the only notable Pagans, and I don't even remember if you met them in the flesh or not. Certainly, they didn't do anything very interesting. They may not even have had any unique lines. Thief 4 has got to remedy that.

kabatta
2nd Aug 2009, 05:57
My appologies. I must be a terrible taffer for gettin wrong Dyan's name.

Hamadriyad
2nd Aug 2009, 07:51
Actually I quoted from thief-wiki. Heh heh. :D (for Dyan post)
But thanks. I didn't know that. :)

Hamadriyad
2nd Aug 2009, 08:48
Ahh, first keepers' compound, now thief-wiki. I wonder don't we have a site that we can completely trust?

kabatta
2nd Aug 2009, 08:48
Good one. To confuze doors leading to wisdom and hidden secrets with a plain old key. > : )

PlumsieTaker
3rd Aug 2009, 07:49
She went out with such a bang in TMA, I don't think bringing her back would work at all.

Although It could be possible in cameo flashback for a cutscene/dialogue mention/daughter? Albeit not a major role like TDP/TMA.

vowdy
3rd Aug 2009, 09:41
There's plenty of other characters which they can implement. No need to use old ones (except for Garrett then..)

Tutterbug
3rd Aug 2009, 10:08
There's plenty of other characters which they can implement. No need to use old ones (except for Garrett then..)

well spoken pal. exactly what I was thinking - don't get up cheesy highway shall we?

Burrick
3rd Aug 2009, 10:14
I never played the first Thief, so I would like to meet Viktoria "again", since for me it is a new character I wouldn't have got to big a prob with her reappearance.

Tutterbug
3rd Aug 2009, 10:21
oh plz won't you shut up? lets just break the whole canon, cause you didn't play all of the games. you didn't play TDP? What's your qualification to post in this thread then? Read and learn before posting - you don't got whats Thief about until you fully experienced it!

You don't just break the trilogy's storyline just cause some haven't played all of its parts!

Burrick
3rd Aug 2009, 10:36
ok,ok cool down - no need to become aggressive! it was no serious request I made, I just wanted to state "for me, she is a new character".

Tutterbug
3rd Aug 2009, 10:44
your request wasn't serious, no it rather seemed silly. and no I'm not cooling down it sets me up when people don't even respect the basics. just don't provide us with ur clumsy little remarks -ok?

my concern is, that the people get the wrong idea on what Thief is and was, noobs to the series like you influence other noobs with your uncontrolled, badly reasoned thoughtz ya are posting in here. this wents all the wrong way! plz don't spoil the truth with your wrong perspective on Thief! You are ruining the game and its reputation - you could even have a bad influence on the development of Thief 4.

I'm set up man, really set up.

Nate
3rd Aug 2009, 13:52
I seriously doubt that the devs would bring back dead characters like that.

Burrick
3rd Aug 2009, 14:13
Yes I want Viktoria to appear again.:thumb::thumb: Because it is my opinion!

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
3rd Aug 2009, 16:31
Of course Victoria could come back as she is a is a Nymph/wood spirit. Remember the cut scene in thief 2 when Garrett is following a trail of blood though the forest and Victoria materialises from the earth in from of him? There is this glowing light that her physical forms around, which I guess represents her spirit. I doubt the rust gas would affect her spirit in any way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnmieVnER34

One way to bring her back is to perhaps present an optional storyline where Garrett performs a demanding summoning ceremony with the pagans using that "holy tree" in the docks we saw in T3 (or several ones/holy plants along with several other artefacts).

kabatta
3rd Aug 2009, 17:33
Viktoria cannoth come back because the rust gas consumed her mater, soul, essence. I would greedely like to see her again, but it would ruin her image . Better leave that for the fan missions.
Burrick: we want you to play all thief games.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
3rd Aug 2009, 21:08
oh plz won't you shut up? lets just break the whole canon, cause you didn't play all of the games. you didn't play TDP? What's your qualification to post in this thread then? Read and learn before posting - you don't got whats Thief about until you fully experienced it!

You don't just break the trilogy's storyline just cause some haven't played all of its parts!

Just because someone has not played the original two games, does not mean you are able to tell them to shut up, or that they are somehow not qualified to post in this (or any other) thread. May I remind you that this is a public discussion forum and all are welcome. Please check your private message box, thank you.

Hamadriyad
4th Aug 2009, 08:25
"Yayy, Viktoria is return."
"But how?"
"That's not important man, this is a fantasy game." :mad2:

You want her return because you like her. I like her too and I was upset when she DIED. But she died because story doesn't need her anymore. Even Garrett can be sacrificed If the Thief universe needs it. You should think what's better for the story and what's not. Bring back Viktoria: this is not. This is just a greedy wish of Viktoria lovers.

FriendlyStranger
4th Aug 2009, 09:44
I think especially since Viktoria is a magical creature there is no telling, if she can return or not. Just think of the mythological creature Phoenix which dies and rises again of its ashes. Such a property could also be thought up for Viktoria - her mortal hull destroyed, but able to regrow in the sacred wood sanctuary of the pagans.

You have to make the difference between what you want to see in T4 and between what is possible. Not everything you don't like is impossible and not everything other people like is impossible.

I would prefer the return of good old characters instead of a bad one like Gamall.

And yes I also think the return of the Trickster is even more likely, since there is no telling if he is dead or not. And I don't think a god is likely to die just because someone drops of a forged Talisman into a ceremony. Maybe his spirit is trapped within The Eye now, who knows.

Hamadriyad
4th Aug 2009, 11:35
You have to make the difference between what you want to see in T4 and between what is possible. Not everything you don't like is impossible and not everything other people like is impossible.


I couldn't agree more.

Viktoria is a magical creature, yes. But If there is a possibility of her return, we would have a clue about that. But I don't remembr such a clue, I remember pagans mentioned about her as dead.
By the way, I don't think Gamall was a bad one.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
4th Aug 2009, 12:01
Well what the rust gas did was consume all organic matter, thus destroying her physical body, thus physically killing her. However, the Thief universe is a spiritual one which means that death does not constitute the end of existence. What I was suggesting was that while Victoria truly is dead (with her link to the physical world destroyed ) there might be another way for her to anchor her spirit in the physical world (unless it is impossible or spirits to "return from the beyond" if once "crossed over".)

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
4th Aug 2009, 12:03
I couldn't agree more.

Viktoria is a magical creature, yes. But If there is a possibility of her return, we would have a clue about that. But I don't remembr such a clue, I remember pagans mentioned about her as dead.
By the way, I don't think Gamall was a bad one.

The tree in the pagan area of the docks could be such a clue.

the_steved
4th Aug 2009, 17:39
Just because someone has not played the original two games, does not mean you are able to tell them to shut up, or that they are somehow not qualified to post in this (or any other) thread. May I remind you that this is a public discussion forum and all are welcome. Please check your private message box, thank you.

Personnally I think that like in everything there is a way to tell something to someone. Maybe he wasn't polite in the way he said it but he still does have a point. Everybody here is posting hoping for Eidos not to screw this up and to most thief fan screwing Thief 4 means another TDS. I too think that staff from Eidos could get the wrong idea and take for granted that TDS did well in terms of sales and just wind up making a similar experience... let's face it there will never be a game like the two first games not because they don't want to do it... they just can't they don't have the leadership nor the vision that looking glass had... no matter whom from the original team you put... some games are made classic by their appearance in time... simply that... Mario 64 is still better than Mario Galaxy on so many levels it's mind bugging...

Hamadriyad
4th Aug 2009, 17:50
The tree in the pagan area of the docks could be such a clue.

I don't think so. When I said clue, I meant some conversations, written metarials etc. It was just a tree. Yes it was important for pagans but every organic metarial is important for them.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Aug 2009, 21:23
Personnally I think that like in everything there is a way to tell something to someone. Maybe he wasn't polite in the way he said it but he still does have a point.

Yes, I agree that he has a point but, as you confirm, there is a better way to express ourselves without the need to be rude. Once one begins to attack people on a personal level (rather than their 'ideas/suggestions'), the original message we try to convey loses focus and becomes lost and wasted. This is the point of my post - to guide and remind all taffers here to remain civil to each other and open-minded. This is the only way to retain good, constructive discussion. :)

negative_len
5th Aug 2009, 01:57
No offense to anyone here, but I think there is a major problem with asking existing fans with what the future storyline of a series should be since they tend to focus on nitty-gritty details that were not intended to have major future impact instead of what would be a good story for the new game. This is just a generalization but I think it's very true.

If it works and it's going to make a good storyline and it doesn't clash with what's gone on before, consider doing it! I'm not talking about the bringing back to life, which might work or might not work, or even Victoria in general, I'm talking about various details people mention that weren't meant to have future repercussions, but, if taken gospel, might end up doing so inadvertently.

Personally, I like the clone/descendant thing, as it actually makes sense and has some great dialogue and storyline possibilities. The new Victoria would be aware of her previous self's interactions with Garrett but wouldn't actually have experienced them herself. I can see that working well. If it's a prequel or possibly even in between the first two games, well, that's something else.

Hamadriyad
5th Aug 2009, 08:00
jtr7, you misunderstood me but I am sorry, this is totally my mistake. I answered Friendly. He said:

"I would prefer the return of good old characters instead of a bad one like Gamall"
If I didn't misunderstand him, he meant Gamall is non-depth, badly represented character. When I said she wasn't bad I meant she has depth as previous antagonists. :)

Sorry for confusion. But thanks for information about Gamall. It helped me to understand Gamall.

Hamadriyad
5th Aug 2009, 08:41
No problem, really.

You are right. Glyphs were just like the one ring for Keepers. And for Gamall (Gollum) of course. :)
(Wow, there are lot of similarity. Long life, shape distortion, soul distortion, temptation of power... :D )

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
5th Aug 2009, 14:42
Hamadriyad: None of the good in Gamall mattered because she was murderous and skin-stealing 'til the end. Her actions destroyed the Order. She lost her chance for redemption by not stopping 'til it was over for her. She clearly had no clue how to prevent or undo the Unwritten times without the Sentients. Since that's over, she cannot give the ex-Keepers a clue to undo the Third Dark Age. Like Gollum, the good inside didn't save his soul, but with Gamall the good inside didn't save lives even as Gollum did. As much as she was addicted to the controlling Glyphs, she was just plain rotten, and all the good meant nothing.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk: Since the Pagans believe Viki is dead, they wouldn't know if the Sapling came from her if she was alive. The overseas shipment is interesting in itself, but the possibility that Viki or another forest guardian are responsible for it is interesting too. The plant, however, was brought in to give the Shaman more power to raise the dead in the Catacombs, and possibly to power the Shamans during the civil war with the Hammers. There are three mentions of an overseas route to other parts of The City, with this one relating to the Pagans. I wonder if they paid for the shipment, too. And I wonder why Albert meant so much to the Pagans for them to fight the Hammerites over his body?

I am not disputing the fact that she is dead, what I am pointing out is that being dead does not exclude any character from making an appearance or returning to the game.
Brother Murus and Gamal had for example been dead for quite some time, and were still able to communicate with G. If V can not return physically, one could always let her make an appearance in a "true dream" warning/preparing G for some future trail or a "run Luke, run!- type moment".

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Aug 2009, 15:51
I have had to delete some pointless/rude posts above.

Friendlystranger, if you believe someone is posting in here under multiple accounts please PM details and link me. No need to make accusations in public, you could be completely wrong.
Herr_Garrett, it might help the situation by not becoming involved in disagreements that did not originally involve you. It just flames - as is evident from the response you received.
Tutterbug, please learn to express yourself better otherwise I'm going to have to get serious with the infraction tool - and I don't wish to have to go down that road because I want my taffers to get along.

This is a polite request and I hope you all take note as I do not intend to repeat myself. No more taffin' around in here now, otherwise you guys know how I change when my leaves get ruffled. ;)

Flashart
5th Aug 2009, 16:19
It's a difficult choice, resurrecting only well thought out characters means less new good characters. I like the relationship between Garrett and Viktoria (I don't mean romantic, before anyone's blood pressure raises), so maybe a "guest appearence" as a vision or weakened entity might be the best option.
I like toying with the notion that Viktoria returns in some way to plead for Garrett's help to topple Larkspur (who we know is nuts *pun*) and help Dyan restore balance within the Pagans. This offers the "War" subplot with the Hammers, and by implication threatening the City.

tarhiel
10th Aug 2009, 12:49
I always saw Victoria as some kind of nymph (you doesn´t have to believe her that she was so powerful, Trickster was boasting too- they are both death now. Never was fully explained who is she or Tirckster, who was whorshipped as god. He might be devil or some form of faun, we would never known for sure), but she IS dead. That whole thing with speculaitng she might survive - oh yeah, and Trickster is not dead too. He is just pretending, just like fatker Carras. They all will pop up on us in Thef 4! They all get mutilated, join thier forces in process of reawakenig, and, behold, now there is Victrikstarrass!!! Buhahaha!

*REALLY big sarcasm!!!*

tarhiel
10th Aug 2009, 12:52
Please, no returing of Victoria,Trickster, Karras, Enforcers, etc... it is bad idea, whatosoever I liked this character. I´m sure EM is able to come up with new story and characters.

ToMegaTherion
10th Aug 2009, 13:12
I always saw Victoria as some kind of nymph (you doesn´t have to believe her that she was so powerful, Trickster was boasting too- they are both death now. Never was fully explained who is she or Tirckster, who was whorshipped as god. He might be devil or some form of faun, we would never known for sure), but she IS dead. That whole thing with speculaitng she might survive - oh yeah, and Trickster is not dead too. He is just pretending, just like fatker Carras. They all will pop up on us in Thef 4! They all get mutilated, join thier forces in process of reawakenig, and, behold, now there is Victrikstarrass!!! Buhahaha!

*REALLY big sarcasm!!!*

And they are interred into a giant mecha-burrick. With cannons. Epic.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Aug 2009, 23:34
Haha! :D

vesemir
11th Aug 2009, 11:23
Please, no returing of Victoria,Trickster, Karras, Enforcers, etc... it is bad idea, whatosoever I liked this character. I´m sure EM is able to come up with new story and characters.

I completely agree with this.
Lets see:
T1 was about pagans and they'r gone
T2 was about hammers (yes!) and they'r gone
T3 was about keepers and they'r gone too.
(by "gone" I mean they don't want to take over the world anymore or otherwise change it)

Bringing back any of this factions or their leaders in T4 will lead it to look like another (much improved though) mod. But we don't wanna play mods, do we?

esme
11th Aug 2009, 11:35
I play mods ;)

Hamadriyad
11th Aug 2009, 11:41
I completely agree with this.
Lets see:
T1 was about pagans and they'r gone
T2 was about hammers (yes!) and they'r gone
T3 was about keepers and they'r gone too.
(by "gone" I mean they don't want to take over the world anymore or otherwise change it)

Bringing back any of this factions or their leaders in T4 will lead it to look like another (much improved though) mod. But we don't wanna play mods, do we?

T2 was about the mechanists, not hammerites. (mechanists are different faction even though they are corrupted hammerites.)

vesemir
11th Aug 2009, 11:54
but you get the point, right? :)

Hamadriyad
11th Aug 2009, 12:00
Hehe, yes I got the point and I totally agree with you. :)

darkmagicasorseer
14th Aug 2009, 11:43
T2 was about the mechanists, not hammerites. (mechanists are different faction even though they are corrupted hammerites.)

There should be a new offshoot faction from the pagans (order of the vines) which could be the order of the beast where there will be lycanthropy werewolves and other beastly monsters. Viktoria will be there and asking help from Garrett again.

Platinumoxicity
14th Aug 2009, 11:52
There should be a new offshoot faction from the pagans (order of the vines) which could be the order of the beast where there will be lycanthropy werewolves and other beastly monsters. Viktoria will be there and asking help from Garrett again.

In which part of the timeline would the story take place then? It would have to be somewhere between T1 and T2.

darkmagicasorseer
14th Aug 2009, 12:28
In which part of the timeline would the story take place then? It would have to be somewhere between T1 and T2.

Hmm, i think it should be after TDS, because the Keepers have lost their glyphs powers that allows them to maintain balance in the world. Hence one of the faction may get overpowered and "spill over" into an offshoot faction, having another "mechanist" is redundancy. Therefore we should have a new offshoot faction from the Pagan. Where the first thief is about the Pagan and their plant themselves, how about we focused on their beast? Beast that can shape shift into humans and hide in plain sight could prove a dangerous adversary for Garrett. Plants and Beast are two very distinct elements of nature.

darkmagicasorseer
14th Aug 2009, 12:45
Please, no returing of Victoria,Trickster, Karras, Enforcers, etc... it is bad idea, whatosoever I liked this character. I´m sure EM is able to come up with new story and characters.

I like the enforcers, however they didn't hide in the shadow while hunting for Garrett which is disappointing. I think the enforcers should be Garrett with no "Don't Kill Anyone (TM)" objective.

Cetus Amicus
14th Aug 2009, 13:04
Opps, I'm a bit late to this thread. Sorry for interrupting the current discussion on time placement for the game.:eek:
As much as I liked Viktoria as a character I've got mixed feelings about her possible return in the next game. While it would be nice for her to return there is also the possibility that it would cheapen her sacrifice and alter the reverence given to her character. (The only immediate example that comes to mind is SEGA's character Shadow the Hedgehog.)
Furthermore I also like the idea of trying to find Garrett some new opponents rather than re-using old factions (as mentioned by tarhiel) ...however I'd be a bit too nostalgic to see the Pagans and the Hammers completely missing from the game; it would feel a bit empty.

Psychomorph
8th Jan 2010, 17:05
If she returns, she betta looks like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EaV221bYaso/SgcnvTuf_vI/AAAAAAAABbo/eK3oUkXWlM8/s400/poison_ivy.jpg

:D

esme
8th Jan 2010, 17:22
men! :rolleyes: *sigh*

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Jan 2010, 18:24
Haha! :D

A nice picture, but she's not... shall we say, 'dark' enough, imo. :p

GhostStealth
8th Jan 2010, 20:53
I always thought about Viktoria having a child somewhere, daughter like a mother kind of thing or something, but nothing lasts forever, unless zombified in thief universe, perhaps a foolish idea :lol: but a child can look similar to its mother and be called for Viktoria, they are same sap after all, but I agree with it should be something beautiful, if such were to happen, a woodsie lady to arrive. :o

Odyseeos
8th Jan 2010, 21:14
If Viktoria can stretch herself into two football fields of vine and parthenogenize frog-eggs, I'd reckon she's not terribly predictable. Worse, I imagine she's natively fluent in Tricksterese.

Platinumoxicity
8th Jan 2010, 22:31
I always thought about Viktoria having a child somewhere, daughter like a mother kind of thing or something, but nothing lasts forever, unless zombified in thief universe, perhaps a foolish idea :lol: but a child can look similar to its mother and be called for Viktoria, they are same sap after all, but I agree with it should be something beautiful, if such were to happen, a woodsie lady to arrive. :o

Take that thought and apply it to a timeline where Viktoria never died. Imagine, would you still think anywhere close to this if she was still alive? Would it still be a good idea to have her and also a mini wood-nymph that serves no purpose in the story at all?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Jan 2010, 21:59
Viktoria should look like a beautiful woman, not a skank, a ho, or a fan of plastic surgery.

In other words, you wish her to be 'natural' and remain 'mysterious'? ;)

Jilly The Taffer
5th Oct 2010, 17:38
Just out of curiosity...
I've got an...idea for something and I want other Taffers' opinions on how our unpredicable Garrett would react of Viktoria's return to him.

AlexOfSpades
5th Oct 2010, 18:02
I think he would feel a spark of happiness inside him, but then hide it with under his mask of arrogance, just to keep his "lone wolf doesnt care about you" style.

But i cant imagine what he would say to her.

Hamadriyad
5th Oct 2010, 18:24
He should kill her, because she shouldn't return. Seriously, I don't want to think the possibility of her return.

Hypevosa
5th Oct 2010, 18:44
I'd expect an extreme amount of suspicion and caution on his part for at least a short while until everything turned out to be legit for one reason or another... and if they didn't he'd try to do what's necessary to fix things and get revenge since someone was obviously ****ing with his head.

Aside from that I think he'd be happy.

TH1EF
5th Oct 2010, 19:44
Aside from that I think he'd be happy.

Garrett: Viktoria? But.. I thought you were..
Viktoria: Deadsie? Well, I managed to plant a piece of myself outside Soulforge Cathedral before entering to battle Karras and his foolsie minions.
Garrett: Oh, So what about...
Viktoria: The Trickster? Wellsie.. he's back toosie, and gunning for a piece of your Thiefy ass Garrett!
Garrett: So that means..
Viktoria: Yep, he wants the other one as wellsie.
Garrett: Oh my... < PLUCK! > Arrrrggghhhhhhhh! My eye! My eye!
Viktoria: Manfoolsie Garrett! (Blows a Kiss)
Garrett: < Stumbles about dazed and confused >
Viktoria: Love is blindsie Garrett! Hahahahahahaha!

Happy? I'll opt for the "Extreme amount of suspicion and caution on his part."

Vae
5th Oct 2010, 19:50
:lol:...That's pretty funny.

JFSOCC
5th Oct 2010, 19:51
I'd expect an extreme amount of suspicion and caution on his part for at least a short while until everything turned out to be legit for one reason or another... and if they didn't he'd try to do what's necessary to fix things and get revenge since someone was obviously ****ing with his head.

Aside from that I think he'd be happy.

I lol'ed

And Yes Hypevosa I think this is likely.

The question really is: Did he care about Viktoria?
I'm tempted to think yes, but maybe that's just the romantic in me.

Viktoria was like the Anti-Garett. Passionate about a cause greater than her own life, driven. She knew how to plan (as evidenced by her having set up a network in the first game, big enough for the Mafia to take note. [notebook during: assassins!]) But was impulsive by character (not taking the time to plan leading to her sacrifice.)

Garett seems like the opposite: Doesn't really care in the builders plan, the Pagan's are a mere nuisance to him, He even doesn't really care about keeping the balance. He does care about numero uno. It's not that he can't care about other things, he just wants to avoid all the difficulties that entails. (like having to spring someone's girlfriend from prison)
Garett usually has a plan, he only "wings it" when he feels he has no other option.

Now, opposites attract. But I'm not sure (how) it would work. She's not a human, and her good looks are created by her skill, but that's not the true Viktoria, is it? There in also lies the authors possible resurrection of Viktoria. IF they want, they can claim that it was merely the avatar Viktoria that died. The "soul" or core of her being, might be damaged but alive, somewhere in the earth, waiting for enough grass or trees to regain strength and re-create herself.
-
That said however, much as I like Viktoria, I think it would be shameless fanservice to bring her back. If you can't kill your darlings, or if your narrative is plot driven instead of character driven, you weaken the story; subsequently the game.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Oct 2010, 21:37
He should kill her...

He wouldn't; he couldn't. :p

Caduca
6th Oct 2010, 01:53
Being a fan of the pagan hierarchy, i think it would be nice if Viktoria and The Woodsie Lord returned. However, their story has been told. The trickster is obviously festering in The Maw trying to reagain his power for another attempt at destroying the hammers and Viktoria is obviously needing to heal and regrow into a new avatar.Besides, i don't think The woodsie lord would be very happy with Viktoria after she made an alliance with the very man who destroyed his plans. If any appearance is made, it should be cameo, in reference. For example, a pagan shaman saying 'i bes have a vision from the Honeymaker, he bes showsie me that the hammers built over somes of the Horthane Woods'. Something like that. And for Viktoria, dyan could be heard saying "I only agreed to leadsie us 'til Viktoria returnsies, she is takings a very long time this time' or Garett could be read a book about Viktoria and say "Viktoria. Hmph. The only pagan with any intelligence.Probably because she's been around a lot longer than any of them, except for Constantine. In any case, it's probably better if they are both dead...if they can die".
What do you guys think? do you think that simple things like this,hinting but not confirming would be a good idea? Or do you think it has to be one or the other, full appearances or none at all?

massimilianogoi
6th Oct 2010, 04:36
I obviously hold a biased view, but I don't believe that Viktoria "died" - not in any real sense of the word and especially as she is not human. So, yes, I think she could return in T4.

I consider that she merely retreated back to her roots and rests in a state of slumber and dormancy. Plantlife can remain dormant for thousands of years. During dormancy, growth stops and plants remains in a state of rest until good growing conditions return. They have evolved a range of strategies for thriving in challenging environments or surviving unusual conditions for long periods of time.

In each fragment of root or tiniest seed lies the fierce force of life - the drive within them is stronger than any other on our planet: that to "survive".

Yes, Viktoria lives.... :)


"Nature is often hidden, sometimes overcome, seldom extinguished."
- Francis Bacon

I'm sorry to disappoint you http://i33.tinypic.com/2vdh478.gif

T2 CS16: "

.......................
.......................


Garrett: All this? It was written?
Keeper: All.
Garrett: Viktoria's death... and Karras... was it written? In your books?
Keeper: All is... as it was written.
Garrett: And there's more?
Keeper: Yes.
Garrett: Tell me!

"

So, if the Keepers weren't mistaking, Viktoria should have to be dead. Otherwise also Karras could be still alive somewhere.


I think he would feel a spark of happiness inside him, but then hide it with under his mask of arrogance, just to keep his "lone wolf doesnt care about you" style.

But i cant imagine what he would say to her.

You forget that she's teared an eye of him, so it's impossible that Garrett, ended the Karras's matter, wouldn't feel a revenge sentiment for her.


He should kill her, because she shouldn't return. Seriously, I don't want to think the possibility of her return.

Funny thing is that your nick is just Hamadriyad XD

Hamadryads (Ἁμαδρυάδες) are Greek mythological beings that live in trees. They are a specific species of dryad, which are a particular type of nymph. Hamadryads are born bonded to a specific tree. Some believe that hamadryads are the actual tree, while normal dryads are simply the entity, or spirit, of the tree. If the tree died, the hamadryad associated with it died as well. For that reason, dryads and the gods punished any mortals who harmed trees.


I think he would feel a spark of happiness inside him, but then hide it with under his mask of arrogance, just to keep his "lone wolf doesnt care about you" style.

But i cant imagine what he would say to her.


He should kill her, because she shouldn't return. Seriously, I don't want to think the possibility of her return.


If she returns, she betta looks like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EaV221bYaso/SgcnvTuf_vI/AAAAAAAABbo/eK3oUkXWlM8/s400/poison_ivy.jpg

:D


Haha! :D

A nice picture, but she's not... shall we say, 'dark' enough, imo. :p

ROTFL!! That's true. Viktoria is more like a monster, and more, she's brown, not redhead XD

This, instead, could be some pagan prostitute. Prostitutes were always a charming character in the Thief games, despite of Truart's persecutions. I remember the funny "debate" between the Lady Van Vernon's guards against the Master Willy's ones.

Caduca
6th Oct 2010, 09:52
Originally posted by massimilianogoi

Garrett: All this? It was written?
Keeper: All.
Garrett: Viktoria's death... and Karras... was it written? In your books?
Keeper: All is... as it was written.
Garrett: And there's more?
Keeper: Yes.
Garrett: Tell me!

OK, first of all we have been over this, dead to the Keepers could mean dead in the sense of her physical form. As for Kkarras coming back, that isn't possible because he had no magical or spiritual properties by which he could return.

And your information about Hamadyrads and Nymphs, which are both fictitous species obviously means that there are no rules. If they bring back Viktoria then they bring her back, its up to them how nymphs/hamadryads function in the story, besides many games/stories etc haven't even followed common ideas when it comes to real-life events. I don't want people ruling it out because it somehow doesn't fit in with Greek mythology. the point is, it doesn't need to.

Saying that, i don't want Viktoria or The Woodsie Lord to reappear for a while. I want the next two games to focus on the regular thief but perhaps show the Pagans and Hammerites are at war and maybe show sides that we haven't seen to them like many magical and mythical beasts have that been unseen.
Also you should be able to tip the balance, a little like the sub-quests for the factions. For example, if you kill two hammerites guarding a building, the next night you find out that because you killed them, the pagans were able to succeed in their attack and so the building is half destroyed with vines and trees growing from it. Also if you help one side too much then different things could happen. you could get two side-missions, one is if you help the Hammerites too much, you wake up captured by pagan Beastmen and being offered as a sacrifice and you have to escape. the second, if you help the Pagans too much, involves Hammerites capturing you and intending on 'purgeth the wickedness of his mind, allying himself with minions of the Trickster, by purifying his soul in the furnace, it ist the only way i canst think of'

AlexOfSpades
6th Oct 2010, 21:32
Hey, Viktoria is a shapeshifter. She went from a wood-made woman to a gothic styled pale lady.

Why not a redhead with.... well, such... round features...!

Tryst
7th Oct 2010, 15:34
The trickster isn't dead, he is a god and while his mortal shape was destroyed, his spirit returned to the underworld from whence he came. It would be quite possible for him to re-appear in another mortal form.

Viktoria is another matter, although she is a plant, she is still completely mortal. She has some strange powers but nothing akin to those of a god. If she returned, I would prefer it to be a parody of herself created by the trickster seeking revenge on Garrett, playing on his weakness for her.

Garrett would know that, as a plant, there could be some way that she may have survived the soulforge rust gas, albeit in another form. The trickster would also know this and that Garretts guard would be down if Viktoria returned. After the previous encounter, Garrett would become too suspicious if the trickster tried another direct approach so using this parody of Viktoria would seem a logical alternative. It would also be more in keeping with the tricksters style to use a persons weakness against themselves.

On first meeting:
Garrett: Viktoria, I had hoped that some part of you survived Soulforge. I just couldn't believe that you were gone forever.
Viktoria: It would takes more than the mere toys of manfools to kill me forever. My roots grow deeper than you think.

The last sentence being a cryptic clue to the fact that her "roots" are in the underworld, manipulated by the trickster.

AlexOfSpades
7th Oct 2010, 15:39
The last sentence being a cryptic clue to the fact that her "roots" are in the underworld, manipulated by the trickster.

That's clever. The kind of thing that you only notice after your second playthrough, and makes you smile.

JFSOCC
7th Oct 2010, 16:42
Tryst, while I wouldn't mind terribly seeing viktoria again, I'd be really disappointed if I had t see the trickster god again.

Hypevosa
7th Oct 2010, 17:26
Garrett would know that, as a plant, there could be some way that she may have survived the soulforge rust gas, albeit in another form.

I'm imagining Garrett hiding against one of the columns or machines at the soulforge entrance when a small budding flower grabs his attention - he plucks it, and later plants and nurtures it in a pot on his desk.

There goes my hopeless romantic again.

AlexOfSpades
7th Oct 2010, 18:01
I'm imagining Garrett hiding against one of the columns or machines at the soulforge entrance when a small budding flower grabs his attention - he plucks it, and later plants and nurtures it in a pot on his desk.

There goes my hopeless romantic again.

Aaaaawww!!!!!

That would never fit the Thief dark theme, but it was a nice idea anyways.

Hypevosa
7th Oct 2010, 18:10
I'm not saying he'd scour the entrance for a token of the Lady Vine while getting cannoned to death, I just don't really see why Garrett would refuse if the opportunity presented itself in a non-endangering fashion (hence the idea of him happening upon it while actively hiding himself from the builder's children).

massimilianogoi
3rd Dec 2010, 23:33
Garrett: All this? It was written?

Artemus: All.

Garrett: Viktoria's death... and Karras... was it written? In your books?

Artemus: All is... as it was written.

Garrett: And there's more?

Artemus: Yes.

Garrett: Tell me!

Artemus: By Caduca lecture of one of our secret books, Viktoria's spirit will be always with us

Garrett: Whay you mean with this?

Artemus: Viktoria is a Nymph, and she cannot be defeat at all.

Garrett: We're gonna to face her again?

Artemus: This is what the Glyphs said... Did you really believe that the only metal and fire of the Karras's bombs could eliminate a magical creature? She's lost her form, but her spirit will continue to live, unless she receives the same backspell Constantine's got.

http://i51.tinypic.com/5w9x68.jpg

Vae
4th Dec 2010, 01:32
...you'd just cheapen the sacrifice.

Nate
4th Dec 2010, 03:07
Agreed with jtr7 and Vae on this one!

Besides, I really don't see any appeal in Viktoria....she was never more than a semi-competent henchman(woman).

I mean, she failed to kill Garrett when she took his eye (resulting in the death of her god...talk about FAIL), she needed Garrett's help against Karras while contributing very little, and she failed in her big plan to take out Karras (but did give a little assist to Garrett by sacrificing herself....again with the FAIL).

Viktoria sucked!

Vae
4th Dec 2010, 03:17
Yeah, Viktoria was a LOSER...she don't dezerv no stinkin' rezerekin'...:rolleyes:

Hypevosa
4th Dec 2010, 03:38
A man who sacrifices himself and dies taking a bullet save someone else has made a tremendous sacrifice. If he happens to be resuscitated at the hospital a few hours later it should not change the sacrifice that was made.

Vae
4th Dec 2010, 04:04
Personally I love(d) Viktoria. I love everything about her, though the finality of her sacrifice is what made it sublime.

Nate
4th Dec 2010, 04:12
Well....if he effectively didn't in the end make any sacrifice (because he resurrected), then by definition it DOES change the depth of the sacrifice.

Now if he doesn't know he is just going to resurrect, at least the depth of his intent remains unchanged....that does count for a lot.

So Viktoria sacrificed herself in order to give Garrett a chance at saving Nature.....so that was a noble gesture.

Still doesn't make up for the fact that she is only semi-competent....facts are solid on that one! Who wants to see half competent characters coming back to life?

Hey, lets bring back Caduca, Orland, Artemus and the Sheriff too....it will make Thief 4 so much better! Their story is done, as is Viktorias.....and I fear as is Garrett's as well....

That (and the 'Mystery Hand') is the reason I think we'll be seeing a new protagonist. I don't think the devs are planning on going backwards to find their characters/plot.

ChristheThief
4th Dec 2010, 11:01
It don't think we should see Viktoria in Thief IV, she has had her time in the Thief series imo.
Do we really have to bring back old characters? She did have great power that's for sure but she sacrified herself at the end of Thief II she's gone and that's the end of her story.

Nate
4th Dec 2010, 12:26
Bravo!

I am sure the devs can fill out a wonderful story with new characters (and maybe a couple of guest appearances from oldies).

Besides, if we wanted to see an old character come back, I KNOW it wouldn't be Viktoria that we would all vote for. Common guys, admit it! We are all missing 'Heartless Perry' something fierce!

massimilianogoi
4th Dec 2010, 15:22
...Common guys, admit it! We are all missing 'Heartless Perry' something fierce!

Huh?

JFSOCC
4th Dec 2010, 15:55
No resurrections.


...you'd just cheapen the sacrifice.

+1 (10chars)

Nate
4th Dec 2010, 19:10
Massimilanogoi?!?! You've forgotten Heartless Perry?????

Common man, you have to remember him. He's the guy who endures endless hours of horrible torture in TDS...just to keep you safe! He was Garrett's best, and most loyal friend!

Thugo
4th Dec 2010, 19:46
I think he was one of the fences in the 3rd game. But I remember him being a coward..... :P

synchro_w
4th Dec 2010, 20:15
i am not gone, manfools.
i am here,
I AM ALL AROUND!!

from the pollen of spring grown flowers
to the weeds that grow thru cracks in walls....
i listen
i wait
i hear
i live
i breathe

i am HERE!

massimilianogoi
5th Dec 2010, 04:06
Massimilanogoi?!?! You've forgotten Heartless Perry?????

Common man, you have to remember him. He's the guy who endures endless hours of horrible torture in TDS...just to keep you safe! He was Garrett's best, and most loyal friend!

No... I know him well... -_- "...see the bruses?" "Mylooord, he's your cousin!"

What meanst "something fierce", in this case?

If he was his best and most loyal friend, I figure what could be the worst one...


i am not gone, manfools.
i am here,
I AM ALL AROUND!!

from the pollen of spring grown flowers
to the weeds that grow thru cracks in walls....
i listen
i wait
i hear
i live
i breathe

i am HERE!

:thumb:

Nate
5th Dec 2010, 04:09
Hehe, the point is that Garrett doesn't have many friends...let alone good loyal ones.

massimilianogoi
5th Dec 2010, 04:12
Yet again... LOYAL??

Nate
5th Dec 2010, 22:05
..... you lost me there.

massimilianogoi
5th Dec 2010, 23:49
I would like to know what "our" Viktoria thinks about this argument, about the return of her counterpart... :-P Yet I've never had the pleasure to read a comment of her...

massimilianogoi
6th Dec 2010, 02:21
Lol... But she should defend her personnage.

Odyseeos
6th Dec 2010, 03:34
Read page 1 of this thread.

"Aspect of nature" isn't possible. Viktoria is a being with an "I". I must not define her, a fortiori, as something to look at.

massimilianogoi
6th Dec 2010, 03:38
"Aspect of nature" isn't possible. Viktoria is a being with an "I". I must not define such a being as something to look at.

???

Odyseeos
6th Dec 2010, 03:59
Viktoria e una persona.

Or else, this entire discussion will be easily deleted, by Viktioria.

massimilianogoi
6th Dec 2010, 04:17
Viktoria e una persona.

Or else, this entire discussion will be easily deleted, by Viktioria.

Then why being with an I? I didn't have understood this expression.

Odyseeos
6th Dec 2010, 05:20
To Massimilianogoi: Yea! You're absolutely right. That "con" is a linguistic bubble, possibly because she's being talked about, but probably being more involved than that. I think, what such descriptions intend one to do is to transform the verbal stuff to a situation that one can stand under. Does that make any sense to you? Not to me either. But here we are.


For Jtr7: A "sentient plant" is not a binding description of the entity. We saw her in the shape of a plant. We saw her in the shape of a human being. My recollection is that the only defining boundary we have is, "We are old...associates" with the word 'associates' given an acute turn by the speaker.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
7th Dec 2010, 00:02
I would like to know what "our" Viktoria thinks about this argument, about the return of her counterpart... :-P Yet I've never had the pleasure to read a comment of her...
As jtr7 pointed out, I have already stated my point of view regarding Viktoria's return. There is nothing else for me to add.
I very much enjoy reading what others have to say on the subject. :)

Nekroface
10th Dec 2010, 18:08
Maybe they could introduce her twin sister Ivy..... ;)

Thrallismos
10th Dec 2010, 20:45
I have a question: Viktoria was in the TDA? With Constantine I think. I did not understand that cutscene at all-why constantine gave not the sword to Garrett? Why was Viktoria there? I didn´t catch everything so I got to ask you. Thank anyone who will answer my questions.

Nate
10th Dec 2010, 21:58
Viktoria was a wood nymph and Constantine was a Pagan God (named the Trickster).....they both planned on unleashing chaos/nature on humanity = would have destroyed civilization. However, they needed a special artifact to do the necessary ritual (the Eye)....problem was that this 'Eye' was locked away with Hammerite magic in a cursed Cathedral.

Enter Garrett....Constantine saw that Garrett was the city's best thief and could possibly retrieve this 'Eye'. So Constantine sent Viktoria (effectively his ally/henchman) to offer Garrett a thief job in order to test his skills. The job was to steal a magical sword.

Garrett completed the job (which was to rob Constantine's own home). Constantine let Garrett keep the sword as a reward, and because he wanted Garrett to have the best chance possible at his next job...

Which was to steal the 'Eye'. Garrett had to go on a bunch of cool missions to find these magic keys/glyphs to unlock the haunted Cathedral where the 'Eye' was held.

Garrett eventually completes his mission, and returns to Constantine to give him the 'Eye' and get his payment....but Constantine and Viktoria betray him. They take the 'Eye' and then rip on of Garrett's eyes out of his head to bind with the 'Eye'....yeah, apparently the 'Eye' needs an eye to work properly. Haha, funny little fact is by doing this, they effectively anointed Garrett as the True Keeper....which is a huge issue in TDS.

They then leave Garrett for dead...but some Keepers show up and help Garrett escape. Garrett then goes to the Hammerites for help in stopping Constantine (Garrett wants revenge). The Hammerites know what ritual Constantine is going to try casting, and offer Garrett a 'fake Eye'...which is a bomb that will explode if Constantine tries to use it for his ritual. So Garrett's job is to swap out the real 'Eye' for the 'bomb Eye'.

Garrett ventures into the Maw and is eventually successful in swapping out the Eyes....and Constantine is killed when he attempts to activate the 'bomb Eye'.

Platinumoxicity
10th Dec 2010, 22:32
-Also noting that The Eye was not a friend of Constantine or Viktoria. They were exploiting The Eye's powers because a so-called "god" of the past has no place in the present. Constantine's powers were just no match for an advanced civilization with technology and weapons, so it needed to syphon better powers off a more powerful entity in order to stand a chance against the City. The Eye is not a pagan artifact. It's on no-one's side. That's probably why the ancient keepers chose it to be one of the catalysts of the final glyph.

Nate
10th Dec 2010, 22:42
???? The Artifacts ARE Keepers from the past! They sacrificed themselves and had their consciousnesses bound to the items...but only the eye seemed able to focus its will at all.

Platinumoxicity
10th Dec 2010, 23:13
???? The Artifacts ARE Keepers from the past! They sacrificed themselves and had their consciousnesses bound to the items...but only the eye seemed able to focus its will at all.

Never heard this. Any quotes to back that up? jtr? Bueller? Anyone?

Nate
10th Dec 2010, 23:26
The story in TDS explains this.

Nate
10th Dec 2010, 23:36
Hmmm, from the stuff the Eye said and the writings = I thought the consciousness in the artifacts were the sacrificed Keepers.

massimilianogoi
11th Dec 2010, 01:04
... and The Paw used to be Gruliac's hand, B]

This is a Jackall's pawn, not a Gruliac's hand

Platinumoxicity
11th Dec 2010, 08:09
The Eye was at least once before "contained" by the Keepers, and later was in the hands of the Pagans, inflicting the Hammerites, who got ahold of it and intended revenge against the Pagans with it, but then the Trickster came after it, resulting in the Cataclysm.

Was that how it went? I thought that the Hammerites discovered it and tried to contain it in the cathedral cellar, but it always got out and back to hovering over the altar. And they tried and tried again until the Eye got fed up and summoned the cataclysm for it's own amusement. What is the real timeline of The Eye anyway?

Platinumoxicity
11th Dec 2010, 16:43
Oh. I always thought that the cataclysm was all about just Hammerites vs The Eye, and the Keepers helped to contain The Eye while the Hammerites and "the watchmen" were trying to contain the destruction in the frontlines. I had never heard that the Trickster had anything to do with the event itself. I thought that Constantine just recently got interested in The Eye because he found a way to incapacitate it in order to exploit it's powers. Remember, The Eye would never willingly submit to anyone's will, no matter how much that someone fancies himself a god. In my knowledge the timeline was such:

-The Eye refuses to work with the Trickster sometime in the distant past
-There's nothing the Trickster can do about it, so he remains powerless until...
-The Eye causes the cataclysm
-The Eye is contained
-The Trickster has found a way to incapacitate the sentients so now he has a reason to attempt to obtain The Eye.
-Events of TDP.

The reason why it's hard to believe that the Trickster had something to do with the cataclysm is that he hadn't discovered the way to control the Eye yet. If he had, he would've already stolen The Eye during or before the cataclysm. If the Trickster did come for the Eye in the cathedral, then there's an integrated continuity error within TDP itself.

Platinumoxicity
11th Dec 2010, 23:17
Yes he knew how to control the Eye's powers but only if the Eye couldn't fight back. That's what the chemical extracted from the mountain flowers came in. It made the Eye lose consciousness so the Trickster could have his way with it. That's why even though the Eye normally likes to annoy Garrett with it's chatter, we couldn't hear anything during the Trickster's ritual in the Maw. It was asleep.

In the earlier unreleased version of Thief, the Eye used to be on the Trickster's side. There's even an unused voice file where it calls the Trickster it's "master" but as I said it was never used. I think the way the Trickster needed to drug it to make it co-operate was also added at that time. I guess LGS didn't want the Trickster to appear to have too much power and they disassociated the Eye from the Trickster on purpose. Instead of there being a powerful ancient god with a magical artifact, there was an old, obsolete and pathetic god that went out of his way to steal a little power, to rise up again, only to be fooled and struck down by a lowly little thief. :)

Platinumoxicity
12th Dec 2010, 09:36
I'm not sure whether we're agreeing or disagreeing anymore. I'm not sure why else would the Trickster need to knock out the Eye other than to pacify it for the ritual. I guess that it makes sense that the Eye which likes causing chaos would prefer the order of the Vine over the Hammerites, but I still don't think it would do anything anyone else tells it to do. The Trickster wanted to use it's powers for his ritual but he needed to force it to use those powers because otherwise it wouldn't have obeyed. The Eye is neutral, although sadistic. It's an equal opportunity terrorist. :) It would bury a pagan village under a landslide just ot hear the last paniced dying thoughts of suffocating innocents under tons of soil, just as well as it would like to hear the last bits of hope fading away as Hammerite soldiers would be forced to kill their own friends over and over again to protect themselves.

And what does the outward appearance of the rock have to do with this? I didn't really get that part.

Odyseeos
12th Dec 2010, 13:57
Was the Old Quarter's abandonment unrelated to Murus?

Didn't Constantine deliver attractive arguments in his tree writings? Rousseau, the sixties? Before Pol Pot, millions of people were intent to live in Constantine's view. It's not a dead argument. Nor is Karras'.

What I saw was a desire to bring about a perceived good.

I think, one oughtn't boil down the problematics of T1 and T2 to that of T3, where possession of power was perceived as the good.

Keeper_Riff
14th Dec 2010, 07:17
Murus didn't have anything to do with the Cataclysm other than getting killed by it himselfErm... I thought brother Murus died at least several days before cataclysm because of brother Martello's experiments with explosives or something.


I am wracked with the agony of guilt. The Master Builder cannot spare the cursed coward that I have become. If only I could bring myself to confess what I know about the death of Brother Murus. His soul will never rest unless we perform the Ritual of Consecration upon his grave. But the priests will surely ask why such a thing need be done, and I am too weak a Builder's servant to face their wrath.


A novice passing the cemetery yestereve said he saw a strange glowing figure walking therein, but upon investigating found that the apparition had vanished. Those who heard his story laughed and blamed his vision on an excess of ale, but I am not so quick to dismiss it. I remember the burial of our beloved Brother Murus last week and the feeling that something was wrong. I shan't relate the story to Brother Martello, since he was much attached to Brother Murus, and mourns his loss still.

LoucMachine
12th Oct 2013, 03:01
Well, I dont want to reactivate an old thread anymore, but i googled the question because i see Viktoria and Master Taffer around the forums and landed here...

As we know today, since Garrett s eye is no more mechanical, we can say events from thief 1 never happened in T4 universe.... and since Pagans wont appear (apparts from maybe secrets you will find) we will probably never hear of Viktoria again... so probablilities are high that in the new universe Viktoria never, dont and wont exist anymore...

As for Mister Master Taffer , a Quote from Stephan Roy : ''If we decided to backpedal and add in “taffer” because a bunch of people wanted it, we’d get another complaint the next day from someone else saying, “Why stay stuck in the past?”''

Taffer is an expression that wont be anymore...

I cant help but feeling very weird (bad) about the new universe/story/lore :(

xDarknessFallsx
12th Oct 2013, 03:16
I could be wrong, but I swear one of the gameplay demo vids has one of the guards saying 'taffer' at one point? Maybe from E3. But maybe I'm mistaken.

If Jenivere is now a magpie, Viktoria might be a potted plant in Garrett's hideout? ;)

LoucMachine
12th Oct 2013, 03:19
A potted plant taffin' in the clocktower? :D

MasterTaffer
12th Oct 2013, 05:05
Talking with Emanuel Garcia and Nic Cantin, the impression they gave me was that "Taffer" would not be the exclusive curse word like in the previous trilogy, but rather one of many curse words. Until evidence other than a vague comment, I'll be sticking with what they told me.

xDarknessFallsx
12th Oct 2013, 05:15
Did you seek out or did they explain why it was important for them to incorporate such strong, blunt language for the swear words that makes it seem more like modern day speech, rather than a more timeless 'of the past' or 'other worldly' approach for that? Yes, Wiki may say the F word was invented hundreds of years ago... that doesn't mean its repeated use in a Thief game makes it a welcomed word for the Universe the game is set in. To me, it's another way that makes the reimagined world seem less magical than before. Of course, maybe I just answered the 'why' right there.

LoucMachine
12th Oct 2013, 05:21
I hope you are right... You played the demo ? did you actually heard it in the demo ? ( just curious, not trying to prove anything... unless you heard it :))

and what do you think about the gap between the 2 parallel universes ?
I know we dont know anything about the story except for the prologue but still, we talk about Viktoria but it feels like many other thing now ''never existed'' too.

Dont you think it feel more like a ''paid fan-made campaign running on unreal engine with AAA bujet'' or something that can really add up to the lore ?

Thanks :wave:

xDarknessFallsx
12th Oct 2013, 05:49
Dont you think it feel more like a ''paid fan-made campaign running on unreal engine with AAA bujet'' or something that can really add up to the lore ?
Unfortunately, with the absence of Stephen Russell and many gameplay changes that have been made to the lore, surrealness, mechanics, etc., it sort of does feel like a well-funded fan-made campaign. Perhaps they are hiding a lot from us for now and we will be pleasantly surprised with similarities when it launches.

LoucMachine
12th Oct 2013, 06:41
''many gameplay changes that have been made to the lore, surrealness, mechanics, etc.''
I think you mean gameplay changes, and changes made to the lore, surrealness, mechanics, etc. XD
It just turns out funny :P

Still hope they are hiding alot of the good stuff and deliberately make us starve for now, so it feels like a real feast when we finally get to explore this game :D

xDarknessFallsx
12th Oct 2013, 07:32
''many gameplay changes that have been made to the lore, surrealness, mechanics, etc.''
I think you mean gameplay changes, and changes made to the lore, surrealness, mechanics, etc. XD
It just turns out funny :P
I've had over 3,000 posts. Cut me some slack; they can't all be perfect ;) (Don't let the 2,908 sum total showing up next to my name deceive you. I've deleted some posts before.)

Keeper_Riff
12th Oct 2013, 07:46
A man who works on Russian translation told us that he met the word "taffer" exactly ONE time (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdarkfate.org%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D4602.msg176256%23msg176256) in all texts and sound files. Or at least in that part of material he looked through at that time.

LoucMachine
12th Oct 2013, 08:26
DarknessFalls Dont get angry I just found it was funny and wanted you to laugh with me :rasp:

DJ Riff yeah I feel like most of the lore is gonna be hidden and/or easter eggs.

InDIGnation
12th Oct 2013, 09:58
Could Viktoria return? I'm not sure, let's ask her.

Hey Vikky; are you appearing in the new THIEF? ;)

xDarknessFallsx
12th Oct 2013, 13:19
DarknessFalls Dont get angry I just found it was funny and wanted you to laugh with me :rasp:

DJ Riff yeah I feel like most of the lore is gonna be hidden and/or easter eggs.
I was being silly. I did laugh with you :)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Oct 2013, 07:54
Hey Vikky; are you appearing in the new THIEF? ;)

Of course Viktoria will be there! :D


To solitary places, my friend do walk.
Reveal your soul, sing and talk,
To every leaf and every stone,
every branch, feather and bone.
Call me what you will by name;
in soil and root, I remain the same.


;)

LoucMachine
13th Oct 2013, 16:46
Hahaha Viktoria, Best answer i could hope for :wave:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Oct 2013, 16:49
I am pleased. :friends: