PDA

View Full Version : Notoriety and the trip home



Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 14:53
I was thinking about the fact that no matter how much you steal, no matter who you knockout (or kill if you're that kind of player), and no matter what trouble you cause... in spite of EVERYONE knowing who you are practically, you can somehow pass people- even guards- in the streets unharassed.

How about a system where, based on the distance from a person and the amount of light on you, a person would slowly recognize you. I'm not saying just as a thief or an infiltrator, but I mean be able to identify/ describe you. Yes everyone knows who you are already (practically) but they don't all know your face, because you never let them see it at all, or for very long. What if they started making posters?

Imagine if you will a player taking on 3 guards, in moderate shadows, and has to run for his life, leaving one alive. The next day there would be posters describing a shadowy figure wearing black clothing and a cloak, who carries a bow and a dagger, who is wanted for the murder of 2 guards, 500 gold dead or captured. Now that describes every thief in the city, but it makes your job harder for doing something stupid. But worse, let's say you did it in bright conditions. The poster would instead say Garrett, wanted for the murder of 2 guards, 500 gold dead or captured. Now you're screwed, because you really did something stupid. Everywhere you walk in the streets, every compound you enter, people now recognize you instantly. Some may run, some may call the guards. etc. etc.

Every place where you were identified would add that job to your poster, along with the estimate of gold stolen, increasing the bounty on your head. Maybe occassionally a bounty hunter would show up that you have to deal with, and maybe there could be a mission to sabotage the printing press used to make the posters after things got too hot to pull another job, i.e. over 2000 gold on your head or something. I don't know, it's just a suggestion that I think would be cool to have.

Anyways I'm off to a test, so I'll be back later to talk about it.

Terr
15th May 2009, 19:25
Hitman: Silent Assassin had a similar system. After every mission you'd get a newspaper (http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3674/doassaie1.jpg) that varied depending on how stealthy you were and your body-count, etc.

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 19:28
after I came up with the idea I remembered that from hitman. Instead of just knowing how notorious you are I'm suggesting in game consequences... i.e. keep your game clean, or things might just get a little too exciting on you. You'd probably have to go around and tear down the posters.... Your land lord would end up extorting you out of all your money as soon as he knew you were a fugitive... or he might just let a few guards into your room to collect the reward from them.

Botlas
15th May 2009, 20:25
If you recall from the intro of Dark Project, Garrett mentions how the Keeper is walking through the crowds and it's like no one sees the Keeper. So I figured it was part of the Keeper "powers" and the skills Garrett has. Not to mention that he wears a hood.

Van

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 20:35
Yes, but if the player is acting against garrett's keeper training and thieving instincts... i.e. running into bright light and fighting a guard head on, then that hood cannot do anything, because you'd have to be concealed and not able to see in order to not be identifiable. A hood only offers so much protection, and if anyone notices the offness of that mechanical eye Garrett is automatically identifiable.

huzi73
16th May 2009, 23:15
I love the idea!EM!?I summon your attention.(wink wink)

Hypevosa
17th May 2009, 04:43
:D thanks for the support

Espion
17th May 2009, 15:13
It sounds far too complicated and to be honest I wouldn't want to have to spend who knows how long running around the city pulling down posters if I was seen blackjacking someone. Besides, I'd probably just blackjack the person who saw me as well and that's likely to have an effect on their memory of what I look like.

Isn't Garrett fairly notorious anyway?

HellionKal
17th May 2009, 15:20
This counts among the several ideas seen on this Forum that if executed correctly could compose a very interesting and rather challenging stealth game.

I'm not sure about it being implemented on a THIEF game though. THIEF was entirely based around the missions and the missions alone. The trip home, WANTED posters, people recognizing you...let Garrett worry about that, not the player. It's not necessary to add THAT kind of realism to the game.

Terr
17th May 2009, 17:10
The problem is that it can become a feedback loop. You do badly, the game gets more difficult, so you do badly, so it gets more difficult...

And sometimes the only way to amend things is through some mundane and dumb arbitrary task.

Hypevosa
17th May 2009, 19:36
It sounds far too complicated and to be honest I wouldn't want to have to spend who knows how long running around the city pulling down posters if I was seen blackjacking someone. Besides, I'd probably just blackjack the person who saw me as well and that's likely to have an effect on their memory of what I look like.

Isn't Garrett fairly notorious anyway?

What on earth were you doing blackjacking someone who was directly under a light, while someone else was staring you in the face? Not very thiefly. but yes, blackjacking someone probably would effect their memory, so you'd just become a hooded figure to them. Garrett is notorious, but people don't see his face all the time - or else he'd have been turned in by his land lord for the amazing amount of money probably on his head eons ago.


This counts among the several ideas seen on this Forum that if executed correctly could compose a very interesting and rather challenging stealth game.

I'm not sure about it being implemented on a THIEF game though. THIEF was entirely based around the missions and the missions alone. The trip home, WANTED posters, people recognizing you...let Garrett worry about that, not the player. It's not necessary to add THAT kind of realism to the game.

Well, if you look at the first person vs 3rd person argument, people keep bringing up the fact that in Thief, YOU are supposed to be Garrett, which makes sense since you decide what he does. So if YOU **** up his life by making him kill someone in direct light while someone else is looking, and not getting rid of that person, I think YOU should pay some sort of penalty. Unless we want to disassociate you completely from him, in which case I still think you should be in control of the mission where he disables the printing press... it would be a fun mission after all.


The problem is that it can become a feedback loop. You do badly, the game gets more difficult, so you do badly, so it gets more difficult...

And sometimes the only way to amend things is through some mundane and dumb arbitrary task.

Collecting posters is no different than a mission, except your goal isn't some generic item of value, but your ability to do thieving without having to be constantly making sure you avoid every corner with a guard on it. Plus, the game would MAKE you go disable the printing press as a mission, and you'd be doing fine again.

Espion
17th May 2009, 19:42
What on earth were you doing blackjacking someone who was directly under a light, while someone else was staring you in the face?

Lol... Yeah, one of my numerous intricate plans that went wrong.

I can't remember the specifics but it involved a guard in a well lit area with a shadow behind him. I distracted him by pinging a broadhead of a metal wall nearby, scuttled across the room whilst he was distracted to hide in the shadows.

Once he returned I stepped out of the shadows and just as I blackjacked him a servant walked into the room and saw me attack. I had to chase down the servant and knock her out too.

I think it was in the Mechanist Cathederal in Thief 2.

Good times :)

Hypevosa
17th May 2009, 19:52
Lol... Yeah, one of my numerous intricate plans that went wrong.

I can't remember the specifics but it involved a guard in a well lit area with a shadow behind him. I distracted him by pinging a broadhead of a metal wall nearby, scuttled across the room whilst he was distracted to hide in the shadows.

Once he returned I stepped out of the shadows and just as I blackjacked him a servant walked into the room and saw me attack. I had to chase down the servant and knock her out too.

I think it was in the Mechanist Cathederal in Thief 2.

Good times :)

That does sound like a fun time XD really, that servant had some nice timing. That's the kind of thing you see scripted in a movie.

Odyseeos
2nd Jun 2009, 16:40
Hitman: Silent Assassin had a similar system. After every mission you'd get a newspaper (http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3674/doassaie1.jpg) that varied depending on how stealthy you were and your body-count, etc.

I liked that particular idea, although I didn't like Hitman all that much. There's a fundamental difference in game philosophy. Garrett is essentially active upon the envoironment, Hitman is more passive, at the mercy of the Makers determination to suddenly create inexpensive adrenaline, rather than tension and suspense. Garrett doesn't require omniscience to function. There's the feel, albeit illusive I suppose, that if Garrett had to do something stupid because the Makers required it, Garrett would be like any free mercenary, pick up and go home. There's no requirement to make an uninformed, likely disastrous, foray. You don't have less than 30 seconds to find out what your home looks like or die.

For Thief, if you run into trouble, you hit yourself in the forehead and recognize that you did something stupid. That if you had been properly observant, you would have predicted the outcome of what you did. The contest is between the Makers' subtlety and the player's suspicion of that and care. For Hitman, very often, the game provides a tree of possibilities which must be attempted before they can be evaluated. You're dependent upon adverse surprise.You seldom have means available to make an apt choice. There's no genuine contest between the Makers' cunning and the player's determination to apprehend it.

Hypevosa
2nd Jun 2009, 18:41
Maybe outside your apartment door would be a newspaper you could choose to pickup and read or not. I also have been taffin with the idea of maybe having your land lord increase your rent with your notoriety, you know... make it worth his while not to turn in the suspicious shadowy character in the 3rd room down the hall (if I remember right, haven't played TDS in a while). Just some system where there's more incentive to be stealthy than just not having to run away.

Maybe if you got a certain number of knockouts the paper could read "Bafford's mansion robbed blind, and no one remembers a thing!" or "Guards asleep on the job!" and stuff like that. Obviously anyone murdered would be on there, and multiple bodies would result in it claiming there's a serial killer on the loose. A side article could talk about mysterious moss growths discovered around the city if you use alot of moss arrows. Another side article could talk about plans for places to switch from torches to electric / gas lights if you use alot of water arrows. There are alot of fun little possibilities for a newspaper.

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 18:45
Hitman: Silent Assassin had a similar system. After every mission you'd get a newspaper (http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3674/doassaie1.jpg) that varied depending on how stealthy you were and your body-count, etc.

Not to be anal, but Hitman: Blood Money was the one with the newspaper noteriety system.

Garrett is already as notorius as they come, so I think if they add a system, it should be based more on how much commotian he's caused in a certain district.

I'de come up with more, but I've got a splitting headache right now.

Odyseeos
2nd Jun 2009, 22:41
Maybe outside your apartment door would be a newspaper you could choose to pickup and read or not. I also have been taffin with the idea of maybe having your land lord increase your rent with your notoriety, you know... make it worth his while not to turn in the suspicious shadowy character in the 3rd room down the hall (if I remember right, haven't played TDS in a while). Just some system where there's more incentive to be stealthy than just not having to run away.

Maybe if you got a certain number of knockouts the paper could read "Bafford's mansion robbed blind, and no one remembers a thing!" or "Guards asleep on the job!" and stuff like that. Obviously anyone murdered would be on there, and multiple bodies would result in it claiming there's a serial killer on the loose. A side article could talk about mysterious moss growths discovered around the city if you use alot of moss arrows. Another side article could talk about plans for places to switch from torches to electric / gas lights if you use alot of water arrows. There are alot of fun little possibilities for a newspaper.

That's great!!! Maybe even a host of hyper-alert guards added for mass murder! :lol:.

Hypevosa
2nd Jun 2009, 23:29
That's great!!! Maybe even a host of hyper-alert guards added for mass murder! :lol:.

Yeah assuming they read the paper I think every guard would just be slightly more... twitchy when it came to noises from behind. They'd probably start spinning about at the first noise from behind them.

"Hey Benny"
"BACK OFF YOU TAFF I HAVE A WIFE AND... oh... it's just you"
"Geez, what are you so nervous for?"
"Don't you read the paper?"
"No I don't... wait, you can read Benny?"
"Well there's a serial killer about, robbed (insert place here) and murdered a bunch a folk."
"And what makes you think he'll rob us eh?"
"I dunno... I'd just rather not get stabbed on the job, it would be hard explaining that 'un to the wife..."
*both cough and return to duty*

DarthEnder
2nd Jun 2009, 23:34
The problem with this is exactly as you describe it. Garrett looks like every other thug in the entire city. They all wear black with hoods, carrying weapons. The guards would be detaining every other person on the street.

The reason people recognize Garrett isn't because they know what he looks like it's because when the villain is in his iron sanctum of impregnability and he sees a guy man in black they go, "Well, that must be Garrett because nobody else would have gotten in here."

Whereas on the street, the man in black could be Garrett the Master Thief or Donny the Streetrat or Frank the Cutpurse etc.

MasterTaffer
2nd Jun 2009, 23:36
Or Garth the Jaywalker...

Hypevosa
2nd Jun 2009, 23:39
That's why an actual picture of his face is important, because although everything else about him can be associated with someone else, a mug shot with that mechanical eye spells serious issues. His hood can only hide his face so well, and if you can see their face, they could see yours at some point (distance and lighting into account).

The Mental Age
3rd Jun 2009, 00:40
The reason people recognize Garrett isn't because they know what he looks like it's because when the villain is in his iron sanctum of impregnability and he sees a guy man in black they go, "Well, that must be Garrett because nobody else would have gotten in here."

They already DO that. Every time in the Thief games, when a guard is alerted to your presence, they always shout, "STOP!! THIEF!!" They don't know if you're a mass murderer, a psychopath, or all of the above, but they DO know you're a thief. :scratch:

Anyway, a notoriety system in a game like Thief would be awesome. They were supposed to do something like that with Assassin's Creed, but it didn't really work out. (Sounds like they're fixing it for the second game, though. Yay.) That would add so many more levels of gameplay - you could either be a good little sneaky thief and go completely unnoticed or be more infamous than the Tooth Fairy. -grumbles- Tooth stealer, steal my tooth...

huzi73
3rd Jun 2009, 12:03
Make a poll,Garrett shoudnt be a poster boy though...

Odyseeos
3rd Jun 2009, 13:30
It sounds far too complicated and to be honest I wouldn't want to have to spend who knows how long running around the city pulling down posters if I was seen blackjacking someone. Besides, I'd probably just blackjack the person who saw me as well and that's likely to have an effect on their memory of what I look like.

Isn't Garrett fairly notorious anyway?

You're right to the extent that T3 defined Garrett as well-known to the city. His picture was everywhere, and he was termed a known murderer by random characters. I imagine, that was for byte-saving. There is no clear sign in T1 or T2 that Garrett has ever been seen committing a crime, or is generally known outside the Keepers, except by rumor. Even though he was betrayed by his fence, whether he was seen or not, is a function of the Player, if I recall. But, if initialized anonymity is game-desirable, there is a narrative problem with respect to continuity over the four games.

Who knows how many potential narrative solutions there are to such? Off-hand, a number of people remarked that, at the end of T3, Garrett had become young and had lost his scar. Not a great solution, but it is there. What might be integral, riveting, and brilliant is not restricted to the present, thank goodness. I dunno; making anonymity part of the game seems interesting, and I doubt it should be ruled away off the cuff.

To my mind, Garrett (of T1) would have left town as soon as he was identified as a media darling. Bad for business, and situates him as an oaf rather than a master of thieves.

However problematic to maintaining the story-line it might be, I don't think it's an intractable technical problem. Every time a player upsets A!, there are levels of upset, which are defined by global change in one or more AI numbers. How many levels there are on that is an engine's first meat and potatoes, I'd guess. Whether someone is friendly or neutral is due to AI numbers. In theory, you could have a huge number of potential reactions with entire sub-routines for each. You could make it complicated, but the basic fact is the norm for every game. Mad Monks don't attack Mad Monks; but if you suddenly give some of them Lode Runner's numbers, you have a war. If the numbers are changed back, you have peace among Mad Monks; Lode Runner too, if you want it.

Hypevosa
7th Jul 2009, 22:54
more discussion, yay!

jtr7
7th Jul 2009, 23:07
...................

AngelRose777
9th Jul 2009, 20:59
wow this sounds like some interesting stuff. I'd love to see more realism and consequences in general, especially with the a.i. I'm all for it!

Hypevosa
9th Jul 2009, 22:48
yay random support!

[PT] Garret [PT]
10th Jul 2009, 15:01
I was thinking about the fact that no matter how much you steal, no matter who you knockout (or kill if you're that kind of player), and no matter what trouble you cause... in spite of EVERYONE knowing who you are practically, you can somehow pass people- even guards- in the streets unharassed.

How about a system where, based on the distance from a person and the amount of light on you, a person would slowly recognize you. I'm not saying just as a thief or an infiltrator, but I mean be able to identify/ describe you. Yes everyone knows who you are already (practically) but they don't all know your face, because you never let them see it at all, or for very long. What if they started making posters?

Imagine if you will a player taking on 3 guards, in moderate shadows, and has to run for his life, leaving one alive. The next day there would be posters describing a shadowy figure wearing black clothing and a cloak, who carries a bow and a dagger, who is wanted for the murder of 2 guards, 500 gold dead or captured. Now that describes every thief in the city, but it makes your job harder for doing something stupid. But worse, let's say you did it in bright conditions. The poster would instead say Garrett, wanted for the murder of 2 guards, 500 gold dead or captured. Now you're screwed, because you really did something stupid. Everywhere you walk in the streets, every compound you enter, people now recognize you instantly. Some may run, some may call the guards. etc. etc.

Every place where you were identified would add that job to your poster, along with the estimate of gold stolen, increasing the bounty on your head. Maybe occassionally a bounty hunter would show up that you have to deal with, and maybe there could be a mission to sabotage the printing press used to make the posters after things got too hot to pull another job, i.e. over 2000 gold on your head or something. I don't know, it's just a suggestion that I think would be cool to have.

Anyways I'm off to a test, so I'll be back later to talk about it.


i think that only works with real-time play cause if u do on bright light ull have to be the whole game running from everyone

Hypevosa
10th Jul 2009, 19:04
what do you mean by real time play? o.O