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View Full Version : Thief: The Beginning - The Case for a PREQUEL?



Teasza
15th May 2009, 12:51
MAJOR SPOILERS BELOW





























So, there's been some general discussion of this in other threads, but I think it's a big enough concept to deserve its own space: the case for making Thief:4 a prequel.

The thing is, I don't think it's possible to have Thief:4 set after Deadly Shadows, and still have Garrett the protagonist without seriously warping the story. The two seem to be mutually exclusive to me.

My instinctive reasons behind this are that by the end of DS, I felt Garrett's story as a proper thief had come to a close. He is now essentially the only Keeper, the true balance, and I seriously can't see how to reconcile that with the anonymous (and often petty) life he had before DS's finale. The City, too, has changed beyond recognition. The Keeper sect have been destroyed - Artemus and Orland are dead, the glyphs no longer exist, and the Keeper library can be seen by the whole city, proving they're as dead as they possibly could be. This is undoubtedly going to have a huge impact on The City and its inhabitants, and while this could be an interesting new world of Thief to explore, it's just that: new. Garrett no longer has any part in it.

A prequel, however, brings us right back to what so many people love about these games: just Garrett, The City, and some pure undiluted thievery. There is also huge potential for a really great storyline. Between his discovery by the Keepers and the first mission of Dark Project, more than ten years have elapsed. There is SO much scope for development here, and here are a few reasons why:

1. Garrett is not yet a Master Thief. This is something that really tickles me: you get to earn his Master Thief status for him. You get to cultivate a relationship with Cutty as your fence; you get to have some really challenging scrapes with the City Watch because you're still perfecting your art. I think this would be a really rewarding way to play, because by the end of the game, you've turned Garrett into the legend that we know him as today.

2. His initiation with the Keepers, something often referred to but never expanded on. Why did he leave them "out of the greater folly of anger"? What happened between them to end his training so catastrophically? What exactly did they disagree about? There's also Artemus' relationship with Garrett, which has been involved in all three games to date, but we're never told how it evolved or why Artemus seems more concerned than any of the other Keepers in following the career of his once-protege. I'm not suggesting we actually play through Garrett's stay with the Keepers in-game - after all, we need to keep a bit of mystery, and that would strentch the timeline out too far - but the following plot could centre heavily on why he left them, giving us some great tidbits of backstory along the way.

3. In a similar vein, we get to dwell more on the growing tensions between the Pagans and the Hammerites, and even between the Hammers and the sect that will eventually become the Mechanists. While it's nothing compared to the uphaul the City will go through at the end of DS, there's still a lot of changes going on at this point in the City's history. The technology in the City is progressing, and it would be nice to see a few mechanical steampunk monstrosities again after DS's bleak medieval lanscape.

4. A prequel means that we get the true heart of the Thief games preserved. After Deadly Shadows, the City is so changed that whether you like it or not, Thief as a game will have to look and feel considerably different to its predecessors. That may be a good thing, but if you want oldschool Garrett, I don't think they're going to be compatible. In a prequel, you get petty thievery at its finest, and since Garrett's already met the Keepers, there's still plently of opportunities for some nice mystic stuff to be thrown in. There's years to play with before Dark Project starts, enough for an entirely new, long and complex plot.

Thoughts? Verdicts? Suggestions?

InGroove2
15th May 2009, 14:28
So, there's been some general discussion of this in other threads, but I think it's a big enough concept to deserve its own space: the case for making Thief:4 a prequel.

The thing is, I don't think it's possible to have Thief:4 set after Deadly Shadows, and still have Garrett the protagonist without seriously warping the story. The two seem to be mutually exclusive to me.

My instinctive reasons behind this are that by the end of DS, I felt Garrett's story as a proper thief had come to a close. He is now essentially the only Keeper, the true balance, and I seriously can't see how to reconcile that with the anonymous (and often petty) life he had before DS's finale. The City, too, has changed beyond recognition. The Keeper sect have been destroyed - Artemus and Orland are dead, the glyphs no longer exist, and the Keeper library can be seen by the whole city, proving they're as dead as they possibly could be. This is undoubtedly going to have a huge impact on The City and its inhabitants, and while this could be an interesting new world of Thief to explore, it's just that: new. Garrett no longer has any part in it.

A prequel, however, brings us right back to what so many people love about these games: just Garrett, The City, and some pure undiluted thievery. There is also huge potential for a really great storyline. Between his discovery by the Keepers and the first mission of Dark Project, more than ten years have elapsed. There is SO much scope for development here, and here are a few reasons why:

1. Garrett is not yet a Master Thief. This is something that really tickles me: you get to earn his Master Thief status for him. You get to cultivate a relationship with Cutty as your fence; you get to have some really challenging scrapes with the City Watch because you're still perfecting your art. I think this would be a really rewarding way to play, because by the end of the game, you've turned Garrett into the legend that we know him as today.

2. His initiation with the Keepers, something often referred to but never expanded on. Why did he leave them "out of the greater folly of anger"? What happened between them to end his training so catastrophically? What exactly did they disagree about? There's also Artemus' relationship with Garrett, which has been involved in all three games to date, but we're never told how it evolved or why Artemus seems more concerned than any of the other Keepers in following the career of his once-protege. I'm not suggesting we actually play through Garrett's stay with the Keepers in-game - after all, we need to keep a bit of mystery, and that would strentch the timeline out too far - but the following plot could centre heavily on why he left them, giving us some great tidbits of backstory along the way.

3. In a similar vein, we get to dwell more on the growing tensions between the Pagans and the Hammerites, and even between the Hammers and the sect that will eventually become the Mechanists. While it's nothing compared to the uphaul the City will go through at the end of DS, there's still a lot of changes going on at this point in the City's history. The technology in the City is progressing, and it would be nice to see a few mechanical steampunk monstrosities again after DS's bleak medieval lanscape.

4. A prequel means that we get the true heart of the Thief games preserved. After Deadly Shadows, the City is so changed that whether you like it or not, Thief as a game will have to look and feel considerably different to its predecessors. That may be a good thing, but if you want oldschool Garrett, I don't think they're going to be compatible. In a prequel, you get petty thievery at its finest, and since Garrett's already met the Keepers, there's still plently of opportunities for some nice mystic stuff to be thrown in. There's years to play with before Dark Project starts, enough for an entirely new, long and complex plot.

Thoughts? Verdicts? Suggestions?


i see your point, but i think it's gonna be pretty hard to convince people... for me, it has alot to do with the fact that there are TWO games which would be considered "old school" and DS which is transitional (i'm being diplomatic here, i like the game, but i know some hate it...).

T1 and T2 are just so deep and masterful and are so ultra specific in why they are great despite their ahem "flaws" (not that i personally consider the games to even HAVE flaws... aside from AI's walking through doors and up stairs with their feet actually IN the stairs... minor details!). I can't see a way to really make people happy by trying to tie anything in, in terms of the lineage of the game, with that era. it's too much, it means too much to the franchise and the fans.

Your point about garret now being, kinda, too big to be anonymous is true, to a point. accept that keepers were never really in the spot light. The keepers knew about garret and people around the city knew of a "master thief" character, some of the mechanists knew of him, mainly just Karras. though the city WAS changed forever, I don't think there was, say, anyone who knew that garret saved the city...e specially since at the end of the game before he grabs the little girl, he's walking the streets as just another person.

My guess is that we're looking at a Garret coming out of retirement kinda thing. like the city has gone on for a few years and descended back into a really dark place and people, while maybe having heard of the legend of "garret the guy who took care of the old grey lady", he remains mostly a legend... so we could be looking at some townsfolk saying things like "oh my, it's true, i've seen the master theif!" something like that... i dunno.

cause also, you'd have thought that after taking care of Karras and his cathedral, who was becoming a prominet figure in the city, garret may have been more "known", but that's the thing about him, no matter what he does... he's IN the shadows.... he's like batman before batman got really popular and started making more public appearances.

again, i'm spitballing here.


Side note: I think Karras is the best villian ever, as far as i am concerned... what's weird is that i have a friend with the same (sur)name who speaks almost EXACTLY like that, he has a speech impediment... which i am not making fun of NOR do i think it's funny or novel... it's just a cooincidence that he talks like that.

tender19
15th May 2009, 15:04
I would like to see a story between TDP and TMA, as well the story between TMA and TDS. Or the story between Training and Lord Bafford's Manor. But yeah, prequels are cheap solutions.

DarthEnder
15th May 2009, 15:13
Prequel means no robots.

No thanks.


Between T2 and T3 though....hmm...

GmanPro
15th May 2009, 20:23
Between T2 and T3 would be awesome. I think it could really work out well

Nephthys
16th May 2009, 00:26
It's really hard to think of what the writers and developers will come up with, after a story that seems like a closed circle, I can't imagine anything that would fit in flawlessly.

But that being said, I've been itching to see the thief world done up with the capabilities of today's graphics.

I loved the Mechanists in Thief 2, they were terrifying in their devotion to what they were doing. I was just playing Thief 2 recently before I got caught up in finals and the Cathedral level, along with Angel Watch, are two of my favorite missions.

If only there was another faction, or sect in the Thief universe that wasn't the Hammers/Mechanists, Pagans, or Keepers. Then another story would come of it without much trouble.

Jilly The Taffer
17th May 2009, 01:13
1. Garrett is not yet a Master Thief. This is something that really tickles me: you get to earn his Master Thief status for him. You get to cultivate a relationship with Cutty as your fence; you get to have some really challenging scrapes with the City Watch because you're still perfecting your art. I think this would be a really rewarding way to play, because by the end of the game, you've turned Garrett into the legend that we know him as today.

I'm absolutely in love with this idea. To be able to CREATE the Master Thief. That will make us connect more personally with him, we will know more better.

However, do we want to know him that more deeply? To be him when he's weak and still untrained?

I guess it's up to us individuals. I, personally, would love this :)

Thieffanman
17th May 2009, 05:20
2. His initiation with the Keepers, something often referred to but never expanded on. Why did he leave them "out of the greater folly of anger"? What happened between them to end his training so catastrophically? What exactly did they disagree about? There's also Artemus' relationship with Garrett, which has been involved in all three games to date, but we're never told how it evolved or why Artemus seems more concerned than any of the other Keepers in following the career of his once-protege. I'm not suggesting we actually play through Garrett's stay with the Keepers in-game - after all, we need to keep a bit of mystery, and that would strentch the timeline out too far - but the following plot could centre heavily on why he left them, giving us some great tidbits of backstory along the way.

Thoughts? Verdicts? Suggestions?

Personally, I think an *awesome* prequel would be Garrett's training and early relationship with The Keepers, up to his falling out with them. It would work.

--Thieffanman

Durinda D'Bry
18th May 2009, 07:45
I think now prequels with Garrett are completely in FM competence. Thief 4 could not compete! And that is very good for us!

TeoRocker
18th May 2009, 08:28
There's basically one reason why I'd say no to a prequel, and I believe it's an important one.

The three Thief games came in that order (with no games before or in-between), because they highlight the most important events that have happened so far. A prequel would have to feature a less important storyline, least you want it to break the continuity of the main story so far. I suppose an official prequel expansion pack is not a bad idea at all; but a wholly new game should progress the story with something new.

Unless the prequel is years before Garrett was even born. That way, we can have a deep storyline without breaking the current story (maybe enhance it, even). But then there's another problem: No Garrett!

Abelo
18th May 2009, 21:16
You should DEFINITELY warn about major spoilers, Teasza

Terr
18th May 2009, 21:25
While a Prequel is easier to visualize than something following DS, it has problems.

Notably, you'll be playing a character who is much weaker than later-on, or else it'll be logically inconsistent. "Hey, why couldn't he do <crazy acrobatic move X> in Thief 1?"

But... you can combine the benefits of both, by dropping out Garrett. Focus on the apprenticeship of that waif from the end of Deadly Shadows.

Myth
18th May 2009, 21:53
I like this idea a lot. And making it a prequel does not mean that Garret will be a complete and utter newbie - he spent years with the Keepers to acquire the skills he had later used to become a Thief. So, he could still be the same agile sneak and witty, sarcastic bastard we love - just he will do a lot more THIEVING and a lot less running errands for the Keepers.

Crypto
18th May 2009, 23:00
A lot of people have been calling for a more down-to-earth plot, one involving politicians rather than gods and psychotic preachers. This would fit in well with Garrett's post-Keeper, pre–master thief days, when he isn't quite experienced enough to compete with the Trickster but is still talented, practiced (Keeper training), and intelligent enough to play a role in politics. It would also, as the OP said, keep the ending of TDS intact.

Terr: The point about talent, I think, is null. Acrobatic moves have no place in the franchise. But if you're going to look at it that way, a prequel would actually work better. In T1, T2, and TDS, Garrett is, what, in his thirties, maybe even early forties? He neither sounds nor looks particularly young. In this prequel he'd be in his twenties and supple as ever.

And of course it means he'll be doing some actual thieving, as Myth said.

HellionKal
18th May 2009, 23:17
Personally I'd much rather see the current storyline advance, rather than being drawn back into the past.

Yes, there is a large gap in the timeline between Garrett being initiated into the Keepers and the beginning of TDP. Yes, the finer details of that gap in the timeline have not been highlighted at all and YES it would be fun to know what actually happened.

But...a n00b Garrett simply does not cut it for me. I do not want to see him become the Master Thief (or even MAKE him the Master Thief by playing it through in the game, for that matter). Garrett, his skills, character and personality are all at their peak when the 3 games occur, and THAT is the Garrett we've learned to admire and love. Having to hand-hold him onto his training would SERIOUSLY ruin the admiration I have for him.

Besides, nearly all the missions he undertakes, be it mansion-raiding, warehouse-pillaging, catacomb-looting etc etc, already require him to be a Master Thief in order to pull them off. I mean, what missions should we do in case of a prequel, that will make him into the Master Thief? Pickpocket 3 people (6 or 7 on Expert)? Rob your neighbor and return to your haven? A lot of the epic feeling of THIEF games would be seriously hampered in the event of a n00b Garrett.

His early years, his training and why he left the Keepers can be brilliantly explained in-game via documents, books or journals. No need to base an entire sequel around that.

Terr
19th May 2009, 00:52
His early years, his training and why he left the Keepers can be brilliantly explained in-game via documents, books or journals. No need to base an entire sequel around that.

This. Show or tell, but don't make us play through "Garret Screws Up And Learns a Valuable Lesson" if it doesn't rise to eyeball-plucking epic-ness.

Nate
19th May 2009, 00:57
Well, prequel doesn't interest me as much...I already know how it turns out = less interest in playing through the story.

Crypto
19th May 2009, 01:36
Garrett, his skills, character and personality are all at their peak when the 3 games occur, and THAT is the Garrett we've learned to admire and love.

And you know this how?

Teasza
19th May 2009, 01:48
You should DEFINITELY warn about major spoilers, Teasza

Edited :) Apologies.

The Deuce
19th May 2009, 15:22
Teasza:

(*Major spoilers*)

I agree with you completely. What people need to realize is, if the game takes place after T3, and it has Garrett, he's not going to be the same Garrett anymore. Or if he is, it will seriously disrespect the first three Thief games more than a mere lousy game ever could.

In the Thief games, Garrett was cynical and selfish. There were things much bigger than himself going on around him, but he wanted no part of them, desperately trying to stay wrapped up in his own petty self-centered little world, and only getting dragged into things against his will. He was hardly an exemplary character, but he was a very interesting and fun character, and that's what made the games.

At the end of Thief 3, Garrett finally grows up and takes up the mantle of responsibility that comes with his power. He finally gets beyond himself, and sees the gravity and importance of the rest of the world. This is profound ending, because it represents a fundamental shift in one of the most defining aspects of Garrett's personality: his self-centeredness.

In all three Thief games, Artemus maintains his interest in Garrett and follows him around, because while disappointed at what Garrett has made of himself, he believes that there is still hope for Garrett: that Garrett can get beyond his childish, petty life, and become a true man who will live up to the potential that Artemus believes he has. Consider the following two Artemus quotes:

"If you've grown tired of how you live, come with me and we will show you a different way."

"Since you left us, you've been a stone rolling downhill. Now you must aim this remarkable momentum. It is past time for the balance to shift."

At the end of Thief 3, after Artemus has died and the Keepers have been destroyed, Garrett finally does this.

Again, the ending is profound. If Thief 4 comes after Thief 3, and has Garrett simply go back to his usual selfish ways, it will be *****ting all over the first three games. That would be a true shame, because the Thief series is one of the best, if not THE best, written games of all time, from a plot and characterization perspective. All three games tie together perfectly, and continue the same theme (Garrett's development as the One True Keeper) to its ultimate conclusion in a masterful way.

Now, a game could happen after Thief 3 without ruining it, where Garrett could come out of retirement to stop some major new threat to the city. However, to respect the previous games, Garrett would now have to be a hero rather than an anti-hero. Maybe he can still be an interesting character, but he won't be the same character. He could still be cynical. However, we won't see him being dragged reluctantly into saving the day when he'd rather just line his pockets, because protecting the city is what he does of his own free will now.

So count me in as preferring a prequel, if I had my druthers. I'd like an excuse to play rebellious, selfish Garrett again, without disrespecting the series.

It occurs to me that we *could* have a history-repeats-itself type plot, however. Garrett could have a pupil who, following in his footsteps, reacts against his instruction and goes astray. It could be interesting to see Garrett's reaction to this. While wanting to bring the pupil back (like Artemus), presumably Garrett would also see himself in them.

Teasza
19th May 2009, 15:59
Again, the ending is profound. If Thief 4 comes after Thief 3, and has Garrett simply go back to his usual selfish ways, it will be *****ting all over the first three games. That would be a true shame, because the Thief series is one of the best, if not THE best, written games of all time, from a plot and characterization perspective. All three games tie together perfectly, and continue the same theme (Garrett's development as the One True Keeper) to its ultimate conclusion in a masterful way.

Now, a game could happen after Thief 3 without ruining it, where Garrett could come out of retirement to stop some major new threat to the city. However, to respect the previous games, Garrett would now have to be a hero rather than an anti-hero. Maybe he can still be an interesting character, but he won't be the same character. He could still be cynical. However, we won't see him being dragged reluctantly into saving the day when he'd rather just line his pockets, because protecting the city is what he does of his own free will now.

So count me in as preferring a prequel, if I had my druthers. I'd like an excuse to play rebellious, selfish Garrett again, without disrespecting the series.

You put it far more eloquently than I did. This is, down to a nicety, exactly why I'm uneasy about Garrett being the protagonist of a sequel set after DS. What we love about Garrett is his rebellion and his selfishness, as you said. To have him revert to that (albeit enjoyable) state of mind cheapens the profundity of his metamorphisis at the end of the third game. It means that he's essentially learnt nothing. His character arc, so skillfully developed over three whole games, might as well never have existed.

In that way, I suppose they've written themselves into a hole... but who ever really thought, after DS, that Thief:4 would be a reality? I would bet money that 90% of those involved with the making of DS thought that this was their parting shot for Thief, so they wrote themselves a climactic ending with perfect closure. No wonder opening it back up is problematic.

Maethius
19th May 2009, 20:32
Interesting.... while prequels are overdone in Hollywood and the gaming industry, if an excellent story and play mechanics are a part of it, why not? Personally, I think it might be more appropriate to have a game split into a prequel part that explains how Garrett evolved into the character he became for T1-T2, then snap forward to the current title, be it T1.5, T2.5, or T4.

BoldEnglishman
20th May 2009, 22:59
A lot of people have been calling for a more down-to-earth plot, one involving politicians rather than gods and psychotic preachers. This would fit in well with Garrett's post-Keeper, pre–master thief days, when he isn't quite experienced enough to compete with the Trickster but is still talented, practiced (Keeper training), and intelligent enough to play a role in politics. It would also, as the OP said, keep the ending of TDS intact.

This is the best time for a prequel, in my opinion. T2X has already dealt with the TDP/TMA interlude, and there aren't that many events that are even alluded to in the main games about this interlude period (rise of the Mechanists, fall of the Downwinders and subsequent growth of the City Watch, then... err...)

However, as I have said in another thread, the time of post Training, pre Bafford's leaves a lot of space for development. A list of things to consider:

- The original instruction manual stated that "You have a reliable fence, named Cutty,who's always on thelookout for good jobs. So far, he's never let you down". This implies that Garrett and Cutty have been working together for at least a few jobs previous to Lord Bafford's Manor.
- Several conversations one can overhear in both "Assassins" and "Thieves' Guild" from the Dark Project show us that the criminal underworld of the Thief universe is already aware of Garrett, and Garrett has already formed an infamous reputation as an independant Thief.
- Once again referring to Assassins, one can read a scroll in one of Ramirez' chests and learn about other elements of the criminal underworld: other fences (such as Victoria in the early days), other Wardens (Webster, Raputo, Dorcas Goodfellow), other thieves (Quince and Jacow, Willoby Bright)...
- ...not to mention all of the inmates at Cragscleft Prison...
- ...or Bafford's numerous gambling dens (Dreckboun for example).
- "Thief wanted for the theft of the gems of Sarnoth" appears during the Dark Project's intro movie: possibly suggesting that the "gems of Sarnoth" are the light gems, and that there was a time when Garrett did not have the light gem

I think the prequel period between Training and Baffords would, as the user I have quoted has mentioned, allow Garrett to go for more mundane missions. Lord Bafford's Manor, Assassins and Thieves Guild all paint a picture of what the City was like during "the Dark Age", before the rise of the City Watch, and while "crime ruled the streets". Far more dystopian than the Metal Age, and personally probably my favourite era of the Thief universe (before Garrett gets caught up in prophecy).

Teasza
21st May 2009, 10:44
This is the best time for a prequel, in my opinion. T2X has already dealt with the TDP/TMA interlude, and there aren't that many events that are even alluded to in the main games about this interlude period (rise of the Mechanists, fall of the Downwinders and subsequent growth of the City Watch, then... err...)

However, as I have said in another thread, the time of post Training, pre Bafford's leaves a lot of space for development. A list of things to consider:

- The original instruction manual stated that "You have a reliable fence, named Cutty,who's always on thelookout for good jobs. So far, he's never let you down". This implies that Garrett and Cutty have been working together for at least a few jobs previous to Lord Bafford's Manor.
- Several conversations one can overhear in both "Assassins" and "Thieves' Guild" from the Dark Project show us that the criminal underworld of the Thief universe is already aware of Garrett, and Garrett has already formed an infamous reputation as an independant Thief.
- Once again referring to Assassins, one can read a scroll in one of Ramirez' chests and learn about other elements of the criminal underworld: other fences (such as Victoria in the early days), other Wardens (Webster, Raputo, Dorcas Goodfellow), other thieves (Quince and Jacow, Willoby Bright)...
- ...not to mention all of the inmates at Cragscleft Prison...
- ...or Bafford's numerous gambling dens (Dreckboun for example).
- "Thief wanted for the theft of the gems of Sarnoth" appears during the Dark Project's intro movie: possibly suggesting that the "gems of Sarnoth" are the light gems, and that there was a time when Garrett did not have the light gem

I think the prequel period between Training and Baffords would, as the user I have quoted has mentioned, allow Garrett to go for more mundane missions. Lord Bafford's Manor, Assassins and Thieves Guild all paint a picture of what the City was like during "the Dark Age", before the rise of the City Watch, and while "crime ruled the streets". Far more dystopian than the Metal Age, and personally probably my favourite era of the Thief universe (before Garrett gets caught up in prophecy).

Personally, I think this is all gold. These ideas are great. Just because we don't know of anything major happening in the City before Dark Project, doesn't mean it didn't. To have a Thief game set around the different unlawful factions/personalities like the ones you mentioned above? So interesting. It reminds me of Ankh Morpork pre-Vetinari. This is a whole stewpot of existing characters just waiting to be expanded upon.

And the "gems of Sarnoth" idea is just inspired. You see, we've been given all these tidbits about Garrett's life before Bafford's Manor... it seems almost criminal to ignore them. (Ok, I admit it, pun intended.)

The Deuce
21st May 2009, 15:06
By the way, in that IGN interview (http://pc.ign.com/articles/982/982148p1.html) with D'Astous (which, though I'm trying not to be superstitious and pessimistic, sounds uncomfortably like "disastrous"), he hints at Thief 4 having choice and RPG elements.

That would seem to me to indicate a developing character: Either a younger Garrett honing his skills and making a name for himself, or his protege.

Taffer17
7th Jun 2009, 05:37
i would think a prequel would be the best solution but i have two major problems with it.

1) there could be no major storyline since there werent any huge, major events mentioned in teh toehr games that could have been a storyline worth an entire game. because of this, the keepers would probably have close to no role at all in this prequel. also, the light gem may be cool to steal in the very first mission, but that was one of the best things about thief compared to otehr sneaking games (i dont wanna say stealth because its used in other games. for example, sneaking int he dark in condemned. didnt work at all. u couldnt tell how visible you were. and third person doesnt indicate it since if u look at third person in TDS it is amazing that hte guards dont see you. you practically glow), so you would need to gain the light gem almost immediatly in the game otherwise the gameplay would be nowhere near as good. not to mention it all depends on the brightness setting you have too, so without the light gem you may think ur out in the open because the settings are too bright or you're in shadows because the settings are too dark. anyway, i cant see any space for a major storyline that are of the likes of the other three games.

2) even if there was a major storyline, a prequel gives even less room for a possible thief 5 if that were to get made in another 10 years...we thief fans must never give up home. there are still people out there who care for our well-being and want to satisfy our lust for a new thief game. but anyway, so the prequel happens and the story is all set to go into dark project...whats that? thief 5? well lets just throw it on after the end of TDS. it would be stupid for the games to jump all over in teh timeline

jtr7
7th Jun 2009, 19:25
The problem with a prequel is that Garrett would still be adjusting to his lifestyle, establishing his reputation, making connections (Basso, Basso's sister, Cutty, Farkus, other fences, stores, informants, servants willing to sell their masters out), and there would be no faction issues, corruption issues, balance restoration issues, and no glyph prophecies to entangle him. It would be a set of fan missions. Garrett wouldn't have lockpicks, and so he'd have to bash doors down, break windows, or slip inside behind a guard as he/she passes through a door. As a true prequel, it would have to be cruder and Garrett himself, less masterful. In fact, the prequel would probably have to center on Garrett becoming a Master Thief and getting Ramirez's attention, the Thieves' Guild's attention. The Keepers would be asking him to come back more than we ever saw, because they would not have yet learned how deep his disinterest in the Order is. It's only out of respect for Caduca and the Glyph Prophecies that Garrett's still alive to go after Bafford's sceptre, because he was going to be erased by Enforcers until Caduca saw that he was important for future events.

Yotun
7th Jun 2009, 19:42
I do not like prequels, so I don't like the idea. What's the point of a prequel? You know what will happen in the end and how things will turn out in the future. That's not interesting for me.
I want a sequel. And I've argued in this website why I don't want Garrett to return, or at least if he does, that I want him to be just in Thief 4 to be faded out, so that a new character takes over Thief 5. So that's me.

ChrisDS
8th Jun 2009, 19:31
I think it would be a perfect time to mess around with timeline... maybe Garrett can flashback into the past and we get to play through the history ... like he is searching his memory for the answer to questions in the present. Or he visits some old witch who helps him into a trance to do this.

I would say time travel but that is over done. I know the idea of searching memories is very assassin creed so maybe that is a no dice as well but it's just a throught.

It would be sad to see the series move away from Garrett that is for sure!

I really think they should mix it up and make it a prequel and present day and try to tie the two in because a prequel on it's own might be ok but alot of what we will see will just be the same ol'

Teasza
8th Jun 2009, 20:38
1) there could be no major storyline since there werent any huge, major events mentioned in teh toehr games that could have been a storyline worth an entire game. because of this, the keepers would probably have close to no role at all in this prequel.

The problem with a prequel is that Garrett would still be adjusting to his lifestyle, establishing his reputation, making connections (Basso, Basso's sister, Cutty, Farkus, other fences, stores, informants, servants willing to sell their masters out), and there would be no faction issues, corruption issues, balance restoration issues, and no glyph prophecies to entangle him.

I see no reason why either of these statements should be true. We know little to nothing of Garrett's past; who's to say he didn't have some major drama before TDP starts? It doesn't necessarily have to be supernatural, but there is no reason for it not to be. Garrett is already fairly familliar with the Pagan and Hammerite factions before the first game, so how did that come about? As for thieving experience, by Bafford's Manor, Garrett is already the master thief we know. He would have learnt how to use lockpicks WAY before this point; what kind of a thief bashes doors down? Everyone in the city would hear; he wouldn't last five minutes. Garrett would have been using lockpicks from the very beginning of his development.

I guess I don't see your post as problems with a prequel, jtr7. They all look like fantastic story development opportunities to me.

And for the final objection, that there would be no faction issues... Well, let me just direct you back to BoldEnglishman's post:

- Several conversations one can overhear in both "Assassins" and "Thieves' Guild" from the Dark Project show us that the criminal underworld of the Thief universe is already aware of Garrett, and Garrett has already formed an infamous reputation as an independant Thief.
- Once again referring to Assassins, one can read a scroll in one of Ramirez' chests and learn about other elements of the criminal underworld: other fences (such as Victoria in the early days), other Wardens (Webster, Raputo, Dorcas Goodfellow), other thieves (Quince and Jacow, Willoby Bright)...
- ...not to mention all of the inmates at Cragscleft Prison...
- ...or Bafford's numerous gambling dens (Dreckboun for example).

There you go. A seething stew of factions, enemies and alliances just waiting to be taken advantage of. There is so much material here that I honestly don't understand how anyone could say there is nothing to work with in a prequel.

BoldEnglishman
8th Jun 2009, 20:43
Unfortunately they do have a point regarding the lockpicks - Garrett only purchases lockpicks after disposing of the Horn of Quintus - he doesn't have lockpicks prior to "Assassins". You could go the T2X route however, and use 'improvised' lockpicks until more suitable tools can be found.

Teasza
10th Jun 2009, 17:09
Unfortunately they do have a point regarding the lockpicks - Garrett only purchases lockpicks after disposing of the Horn of Quintus - he doesn't have lockpicks prior to "Assassins". You could go the T2X route however, and use 'improvised' lockpicks until more suitable tools can be found.

Wow, that totally slipped my mind. I concede the point.

cheater_1
20th Feb 2010, 14:57
Oh I'm sure I will get FLAMED that this has been talked about before at length and some "administrator" will move this comment to the bottom of some obscure thread. But here goes anyway.

EIDOS MONTREAL, I sure hope you're listening.

The Thief game you are CURRENTLY working on must NOT follow TDS. TDS was an abberation. I could go on ad infinitum as to why, but I'm sure you all know.

I am suggesting, maybe even DEMANDING, that the next installment be called Thief The Beginning: Garrett's Story I am strongly suggesting that you make a prequel to TDP.

It would breathe new life back into the series. You could start with Garrett as a child and DOCUMENT his rise to master Thief. The possibilites are endless. An ENTIRE new trilogy could be created. And then, after the new trilogy is complete, you could cap it all off with a game that ends the franchise, placing it directly after TMA. A game that will replace TDS as the "3rd Thief".

The Thief timeline would be as follows: you'd have the 3 new prequel games, then TDP, then TMA, then the FINALE that would follow-up TMA. Deadly Shadows (in my opinion) is nothing more than a decent fan mission.

Oon Kuka Oon
20th Feb 2010, 15:33
Is there actually much to tell about Garrett's early days? Before the Keeper Training he was a street child, and earned his bread picking pockets and delivering letters - I don't think it would be very interesting. One could make a couple of missions that take place just after Keeper Training, Garrett leaving the Keepers and starting his career as Thief, but I think you can't make a full-sized game of that.

s guy
20th Feb 2010, 16:18
thief 3 had bad gameplay and level design, but the plot should not be ignored. It fitted with the one-faction-goes-corrupt-and-Garrett-restores-balance theme, but it was the team that wanted balance that went corrupt. It was a good finality to the Written Times. I used to think T4 should be between T2 and T3 as well, but jtr7 explained why it would be so much better to have it after TDS. And before you call me a pushover, it's called not being stubborn. Please back me up, jtr7.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
20th Feb 2010, 17:18
Oh I'm sure I will get FLAMED that this has been talked about before at length and some "administrator" will move this comment to the bottom of some obscure thread. But here goes anyway.

I am more than administrator, I'm Lady of The Vine and I am here to offer some sort of 'Order within the Chaos'. :p

Your new post is an interesting one, but as it discusses the possibility of a prequel to the story, I've merged into the existing discussion where it belongs.
And don't worry, the dev team will be reading.

Namdrol
20th Feb 2010, 18:51
...and some "administrator" will move this comment to the bottom of some obscure thread...


Go to your control panel, go into edit options, change Thread display mode to; Linear-Newest First
http://i565.photobucket.com/albums/ss97/KarmaNamdrol/Clipboard01.jpg

Then you'll be, at the top "of some obscure thread".

Loup
20th Feb 2010, 19:19
A prequel would be rather restricting for the developers since there is not much to work with between the training and Bafford's. As pointed out before, this is before Garrett becomes the master thief as we know him. It means a smaller number of tools (the lookpicks included). The story would also focus on establishing contacts and dealing with things which is of rather meagre standard compared to the earlier games. I don't say that that would be bad by itself, but scaling it down will make it focus on relations instead of the huge looming threats which was the focus in TDP and TMA. The game mechanics will need to be altered for a less skilled Garrett and the story will lack the depth any possible antagonists except maybe the wardens. I do like this idea on paper, but it may come of as a fan-focused game.

cheater_1
20th Feb 2010, 22:00
Well,I don't feel TOO bad. I didn't get ripped to SHREDS.

I'm not going to whine and cry that nearly ALL my new topics get merged as I watch other new topics that REHASH and revisit old, tired topics keep their OWN thread. It is MY destiny to get pushed around and shoved and manipulated.

At least a FEW people agree with me this time.

Loup
20th Feb 2010, 23:02
Well,I don't feel TOO bad. I didn't get ripped to SHREDS.

I'm not going to whine and cry that nearly ALL my new topics get merged as I watch other new topics that REHASH and revisit old, tired topics keep their OWN thread. It is MY destiny to get pushed around and shoved and manipulated.

At least a FEW people agree with me this time.

You start a thread which has the exact topic as another thread and you feel like you are being treated wrongly because Viktoria merged it?

Gillie
20th Feb 2010, 23:46
A prequel would be rather restricting. I would like perhaps a few flashbacks with Garrett of course and meetinga few others. Even the cradel how it was (Ooops) :rolleyes:
Just to show how it came about, he was far more than just an orphan on the streets anyway.
Often they can explain a lot more, that is just me thinking that is all.

cheater_1
20th Feb 2010, 23:55
I have MUCH better things to do than go back NEARLY one year and check to see if someone spoke about something I'm about to bring up today.

I daresay 98.9% of the contents of this ENTIRE forum have been talked about before, somewhere at sometime. GREAT ideas must be revisited and NOT merged onto some obscure thread that is more POORLY executed than the newer one (ah, that would be mine).

Lady_Of_The_Vine
21st Feb 2010, 01:15
This thread hasn't even exceed two pages yet, so I don't understand what your complaint is.
You certainly don't have to look back more than one year. All main discussions can easily be found in "Keeper Diary" thread. They are listed in alphabetical order and it would take you less than 30 seconds to locate a particular topic.

Your discussion talks about a prequel, so it belongs in here.

Also, the reason why threads (on the exact same topic) are merged is that the dev team can view all discussion in one thread with speed and ease. I think this is much more important for the community - they don't have the time to trawl through several independent threads. New threads may have a different introduction but they ultimately contain the same arguments.

I hope we can return to topic now.

jtr7
21st Feb 2010, 01:17
Searches would be so much simpler, and there would be less pages to sift through, if discussions took place in fewer threads on the matter.



As has been said, a prequel means Garrett has less of everything. No weapons or Keeper training, etc, or if it takes place between when he left the Order and before the Bafford job, he's superstitious, less skilled, and has far fewer contacts, and there are no signs of his involvement with the Factions. A graphic novel would suit those years better.

xAcerbusx
21st Feb 2010, 01:54
Prequels are just so overdone these days. I'm sick of them.

Yeah, this statement basically sums up my thoughts on Thief 4 being a prequel. When I heard Deus Ex 3 is now a prequel, I just rolled my eyes. Thief and Deus Ex shouldn't have to share space on the market with all of these other hideous video game and film prequels that are flooding stores.

New gamers may have never played Thief 1 through 3, but give them some credit for being capable of following along, at least. Look at Mass Effect 2. Selling way more than the original, and doesn't bother to recap much from the first game. Which says that new gamers are picking it up and enjoying it, regardless. No need to 'reboot' everything. That just cheapens it.

Tell a new story, and so long as the gameplay and story are compelling, people will enjoy them, and sales will reflect that. The 'apocalyptic' nature of Deadly Shadows' climax lends itself to a fresh, new story anyways. It sort of wipes the slate clean, as it were.


A graphic novel would suit those years better.

Couldn't agree more.

Gillie
21st Feb 2010, 02:28
Searches would be so much simpler, and there would be less pages to sift through, if discussions took place in fewer threads on the matter.

As has been said, a prequel means Garrett has less of everything. No weapons or Keeper training, etc, or if it takes place between when he left the Order and before the Bafford job, he's superstitious, less skilled, and has far fewer contacts, and there are no signs of his involvement with the Factions. A graphic novel would suit those years better.

Yes a novel maybe, that was just my thoughts not reality. I will remove the post/s

jtr7
21st Feb 2010, 02:43
Your posts are fine, Gillie. :)

cheater_1
21st Feb 2010, 05:59
Well, I DISAGREE about a prequel not living up to expectations.

To me, there seems SO much more to tell. We clearly entered the storyline in the latter half of GARRETT'S escapades. We need a beginning.

BUT heck, if Montreal can live up to TDP and TMA, I won't complain.

Loup
21st Feb 2010, 07:24
cheater, try to meet the arguments instead of just stating what you think.

Loup
21st Feb 2010, 07:34
Well, I DISAGREE about a prequel not living up to expectations.

To me, there seems SO much more to tell. We clearly entered the storyline in the latter half of GARRETT'S escapades. We need a beginning.


Like... what? The menial jobs just to get his rent paid, meeting a few contacts. What more is there to say that would be the foundation for a compelling story?

TDP started where his life started to get really interesting. TDS opens up for the developers to take Garrett in countless directions. If they don't have any relevant extraordinary antagonists then there is still countless of other influential individuals in the city. The game may go in countless different directions while a prequel has a very restricted timeline to work with.

cheater_1
21st Feb 2010, 18:21
I feel I am the TRUE starter of this thread. I feel I OWN it. It was started nearly a year ago and has been on ice since. I have stated and PROVED that a prequel has much more merit than continuing a story that the MOST of us feel is at a dead end.

Some of the world's most favorite movies and books and games are PREQUELS. And there is a reason for that: They BREATHE new life back into a something that is tired OR they fill in missing pieces. I just can't believe that there are still a FEW hold outs who have no interest in what happened before TDP. If I could guesstimate a timeline of 1-10, I'd put TDP at 7. There's a LOT more to tell before than after. Don't CHEAPEN then series by turning it into another JAWS 9 or Rocky 25.

That's my argument. I challenge ANYONE (without going into ridiculous made-up details of "this is what the keepers would do" and "this is how Garrett would act") to dispute WHY the entire first 50% of this story--or ANY story-- should not be told.

Tic toc tic toc.

Oon Kuka Oon
21st Feb 2010, 19:43
Thief isn't one of those things that have got prequels. If they have a working prequel, it doesn't mean that Thief would. You haven't told us what so interesting could have happened before TDP.

xAcerbusx
21st Feb 2010, 21:41
That's my argument. I challenge ANYONE (without going into ridiculous made-up details of "this is what the keepers would do" and "this is how Garrett would act") to dispute WHY the entire first 50% of this story--or ANY story-- should not be told.

Tic toc tic toc.

It's already been told, actually. The first cutscene shows how Garrett was discovered by The Keepers, the training mission shows how he was trained as one, and the cutscene after that explains why he left.

Honestly, it doesn't strike me as all that interesting of a period. But, hey... different strokes.

Yaphy
21st Feb 2010, 22:12
If Garrett isnt the protagonist; a prequel is the way to go. I dont mean just before Thief I. I mean long before Thief I, when The City is young and different. Maybe even more mystic then now. However I really hope that Garrett is the protagonist in Thief IV.

Loup
21st Feb 2010, 23:34
I feel I am the TRUE starter of this thread. I feel I OWN it. It was started nearly a year ago and has been on ice since. I have stated and PROVED that a prequel has much more merit than continuing a story that the MOST of us feel is at a dead end.

Some of the world's most favorite movies and books and games are PREQUELS. And there is a reason for that: They BREATHE new life back into a something that is tired OR they fill in missing pieces. I just can't believe that there are still a FEW hold outs who have no interest in what happened before TDP. If I could guesstimate a timeline of 1-10, I'd put TDP at 7. There's a LOT more to tell before than after. Don't CHEAPEN then series by turning it into another JAWS 9 or Rocky 25.

That's my argument. I challenge ANYONE (without going into ridiculous made-up details of "this is what the keepers would do" and "this is how Garrett would act") to dispute WHY the entire first 50% of this story--or ANY story-- should not be told.

Tic toc tic toc.

What is your argument? That there has been good prequels? That is actually not an argument, but a statement. You still haven't given a single example of this huge amount of story between that Garrett leaves the keepers and Bafford's. What is the actual potential?
What is there to work with to make an interesting storyline?

What did he do in that time? Probably menial burglaries and establishing various contacts and informants. Other problems is antagonist and the fact that there are various tools which he don't have yet.

jtr7
21st Feb 2010, 23:42
Yes. Please describe the potential game so it doesn't sound merely like a guy who steals in a steampunk setting.

cheater_1
22nd Feb 2010, 01:10
LOUPY, you did just what I expected. You predictably violated my request to NOT create some make believe story as to what YOU think happened before TDP.

C'mon!!!! The backdrop for a prequel has yet to be written. It exists in the WRITER'S head.

Heck, you may has well have said that George Lucas wouldn't have any material to come up with before Star Wars: A New Hope. Well, I GOT NEWS for ya, he came up with an entire trilogy. Let's not debate the quality of episodes 1-3, but you get the picture.

You may as well ask your dog as to what it thinks should preceed TDP. It is not for us to decide. There are no SET rules for EM to follow. Remember, leave the DETAILS to the writers.

Even if the prequel were just ONE game, it would be more than easy to fill up one DVD with content ranging from Garrett's Birth to when he got caught by the keepers..... progressing to when he ventures out on his own......... leading right into TDP.

To say that Eidos wouldn't be able to make a game out of ALL that, INSULTS their ability as world makers. HOW dare you all!!

jtr7
22nd Feb 2010, 01:46
Nice try. You don't seem to have noticed that a lot of us want a Thief game, not just any ol' fun game, and not a good or great game, but a great Thief game. Too many of your ideas are for fine for games in general, or fan-fiction, but not a Thief game. Keep it Thief-based and describe Thief game-mechanics and Thief themes. Screaming is still not very effective, and still isn't going to make you any more heard.

The backstory is strongly hinted at in the fiction we've already been given, and even though it's not a full picture, it does flat-out contradict many of your ideas--many of which are so general or only skim the surface, and even the employees of EM cannot read minds. Garrett has a character arc and he's a changed person after he gets his eye ripped out. Before that, he didn't know the Trickster was real, he was superstitious and believed in luck and that he could influence it. He was not as confident in himself as he was later on, and he still held some immature views. Going backwards would mean a less developed character all around, more bratty, less equipped, less connected, and no real threats against the Balance, no mixing it up with the Factions, and no actions that would have an obvious bearing on future events. A prequel has to play it safe and cannot mess too much with territory the existing fiction has already covered--especially not in a well-written way, instead of cheesy jump-the-shark unoriginal writer's-block cliches--while a sequel is more openly dangerous, more satisfyingly challenging, and thrusts an entire Faction into a big scary unknown with no powers but expiring intel from the past and contingency weapons training. We've never seen all the Factions Balanced before. We've never seen a Garrett that wasn't fulfilling a Glyph Prophecy, or being manipulated by Keepers. If Garrett gets caught by an enemy, there are no Glyphs to guide Keepers to his rescue again. Any prophecy will have to come through non-Keeper sources, and any manipulation to fulfill any Prophecy, too. A prequel Garrett would play like a long series of training missions, with Garrett finding flashbombs for the first time, and rope arrows, and crystals, etc., and again, it would all be a little to GTA without the 'A'. If you disagree, this would be a perfect place to list examples. Saying we're wrong is meaningless in and of itself.



Anyway, talent can only take a team so far. Time, money, resources, technology, and how many people there are in key positions are also needed. It's not an insult to say they are limited. It's fact, and has nothing whatsoever to do with their talent. They also cannot humanly predict how their ideas will be received by focus groups and playtesters. It's ungrounded flattery to say EM can do whatever they want and time and money and resources have no say, and to keep coming up with ideas that are extraneous instead of tightly focused on what it is that makes a Thief game is helping no one. I have great confidence in their abilities to make stuff, I just don't have any confidence that Thief is the goal rather than money and acclaim, which don't have anything to do with what makes a great Thief game. Looking at the games that keep coming out and seeing which ones garner the big praise, I don't see any of them doing what Thief does best, and I fear for Thief 4. I see half-assed animations continue to reign supreme. If you've been paying attention, you know EM hasn't hired their animators yet, with less than a year-and-a-half to go.


What makes a Thief game a Thief game? What do all the Thief games have in common? That's the starting point.

Mugsey05
22nd Feb 2010, 03:05
I think there is merit to both arguments. On the one hand, it is true that there really cannot be much more development of Garret as an actual thief following TDS. Whatever arguments one wants to make about the quality of the gameplay (I liked it, personally), the storyline is an appropriate ending for the trilogy and is exactly what the series had been leading up to. Garret is a completely changed person at this point; he is no longer a thief, but the "One True Keeper" that the everyone had been waiting for to replace the "First Keeper" as head of the Keeper Order. Even supposing the developers disregarded the previous indicators that there was to be a time of peace following the prevention of the coming Dark Age, since Garret isn't a thief anymore, there'd be no more looting, no more pickpocketing, or anything of that nature; to do justice to the storyline, it would either be Garret sitting behind a desk giving orders to fellow Keepers or Garret going out himself to root through drawers for information about this or that.

However, it's also true that there couldn't be any cataclysmic events in a prequel (though I would love to follow Garret's progression from a recent deserter of the Keepers to a master thief). Honestly, the way to go would either be to do a prequel that focuses on some kind of political power shift in the city that Garret gets involved in, or to show some of the earlier conflicts between the Pagans and the Hammerites (although this would be somewhat anticlimactic as the player would already have knowledge of how things turn out vis-a-vis the subsequent games).

Frankly, I would love to see the developers do is take the 3 games and do a complete overhaul, combining all three into one massive game, somewhat in the spirit of GTA, having a completely interactive city of epic proportions where every building can be accessed and there are all sorts of valuables for a clever thief to steal. Throw in a lot more of the side missions (e.g. stealing the gold dagger or disposing of the body in TDS) and fill in some of the missing storyline between Garret's desertion in the TDP opening and TDP proper with a cut scene of him leaving and a few more training missions to introduce the player to the city and I think Eidos would have one hell of a game on its hands.

Also, Cheater, please stop capitalizing arbitrary words in your posts. It really isn't necessary.

cheater_1
22nd Feb 2010, 03:24
JTR, let's work backwards. First off, there is NOT less than a year and a half to go. TRUST me. Although I have no direct connections with anyone at EM, Thief 4 will NOT, 100% sure, bet your life guarantee, drop anytime in 2011. And a 2012 release is more than likely to happen in the second quarter.

Next, you have indicated that a prequel translates into a LESS than great game. "Too many of your ideas are for fine for games in general, or fan-fiction, but not a Thief game." I have purposely omitted any ideas other than a prequel. I am vague on PURPOSE. Once again, leave it to the writers to make a great Thief.


Now, all the reasons you listed for why a prequel should NOT happen are, in fact, why it SHOULD happen. As I read your post, I thought, "this guy gets it. He really gets-- AH, nope. Guess he doesn't get it."

You made a case exactly why it SHOULD happen: "Going backwards would mean a less developed character all around, more bratty, less equipped, less connected, and no real threats against the Balance, no mixing it up with the Factions, and no actions that would have an obvious bearing on future events." I think these are STRONG reasons for a prequel. Again, let the developers build their world.

"while a sequel is more openly dangerous, more satisfyingly challenging, and thrusts an entire Faction into a big scary unknown with no powers but expiring intel from the past and contingency weapons training." OUCH!! You are realizing you are taking a shot at EM with that, don't you? You have little faith in their ability to create all of the above while utilizing a different timeline (Before TDP).

All this talk about keepers and glyphs keeps you GROUNDED with what has already happened. You are, once again, showing little faith in the devs ability to build a world around what was NOT brought into play in TDP. Look at the how the CITY evolved in TMA. Look at the new and different things brought into play. Have you no faith in the devs ability to bring new things into play?

Finally, when you talk about limitations, here is what you are trying to say, in your own round about way. "I don't want a prequel because Garrett won't be as cool or tough as he is now. It won't be as fun because he'll be a little kid and won't have the abilities as he does now."

Well, there is NOTHING more satisfying than watching a character GROW. Whether it be book, movie, video game, LIFE. To be stuck in chapter 23 for the entire time makes for a very boring story.

jtr7
22nd Feb 2010, 03:39
Of course there are merits on both sides. Cheater just needs to list the ones he sees, and make a habit of doing it at least once per discussion, and it would be nice if he added layers to it to support his stance. :) Showing an understanding of what is involved in making a game would really be productive for all concerned, too.

The Baron going off to war with Blackbrook, and having the Wardens rise in power in the Baron's absence and doing dirty dealings with Blackbrook's Underguild, are things that could be worked with. The arrival of Viktoria working as an agent for Warden Raputo (without getting involved too much in the overall story) could be touched upon. We could learn more about Webster and Raputo. We could see the Thieves' Guild at its peak power. Garrett could be working with Cutty, Basso, and we could learn what was up with Issyt the Beggar and Garrett letting him borrow his Lucky Hand of Glory and why Garrett was lacking the confidence in his stealth skills (no Glyphs is my guess) to even own a Hand of Glory )or maybe it's something sentimental? A gift?). Sangar could hook Garrett up with another job and we could see their relationship. For the heart-strings, Garrett could interact with street people he knew before he joined the Keepers, and the City Watch could kill them, hardening his heart further.



It would not be Thief 4, but some other development later, for EM to rebuild 3 games in one, and then to add what amounts to another set of games woven in. I don't know how anyone can think that's a good idea and that the game would be good. It would be too much packed in, and each kewl thing would detract from the others. It's not a game made for everything and the kitchen sink. It's stripped down and tightly-focused.

Mugsey05
22nd Feb 2010, 04:01
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Just because no one has ever done an adequate job of integrating a series into one game doesn't mean that it can't be done. And I'm not talking about just throwing all three games back to back and calling it "Thief Platinum" or something to that effect. I'm talking about taking advantage of the computing power that is now available to take the existing Thief story and taking it to the next level and make the earlier games what they should have been. One of the biggest complaints everyone had about TDS is that the city was a huge disappointment. I feel that any addition to the Thief storyline at this point is either going to be inconsistent or is going to feel horribly forced.

What I'd rather see is a completely revamped trilogy. Get rid of all the bugs and the glitches, fill in some of the time gaps between the training mission of TDP and TDP proper as well as the gaps between TDP to TMA and TMA to TDS, create an interactive world for the player to explore at his/her leisure. Refine or remove some elements of the games that didn't work well (e.g. the climbing gloves), add new elements and enhance the difficulty of the game to reflect the additional elements. Change the monetary system so that it actually matters. I'd like to be able to explore the city as it seems to be collapsing in upon itself, see what's going on with the people in the city, interact more with the factions rather than shooting some bricks with an arrow or tossing a tree in an oven.

Immersion should be the name of the game at this point, try to create a world that the player can completely lose him/herself in. What's more important is that it's feasible. Revamp the old missions to bring them up to today's technical standards, add a few additional twists and turns to make the game feel new, but, because most of the work would already be done as far as the core game development goes, the majority of the budget and work could go into the one thing that Thief has yet to deliver: a world worth exploring. I combed every inch of the city in TDS after every mission, stealing everything I could and going everywhere available, but there just wasn't enough there to work with. The story line is essentially finished; a few things could be done here or there in terms of background (which could easily be worked in prior to the events of TDP in terms of training missions, seeing as how there really isn't a lot to cover without going back and creating an entirely new history for the series). What should really be done now is breathe new life into the games and push the games to realize their full potential.

jtr7
22nd Feb 2010, 04:08
I'm not talking about "possibility", there.


Probability and motive and time and money are the issue. Why would they do it--keeping in mind it's a business and "things we'd like to see" are not what it's about?



Of course they can do something like that, but not in 24 months with a modest-sized team. If you have one job to do in one afternoon, and you want to do the best you can, versus, you have 4 jobs to do in one afternoon...good luck. I guarantee you'll be looking for ways to cut corners. Look at Assassin's Creed II and realize it took a minimum of 150 people, raised to 450 people near the end, to make a game that is not as big as all the Thief games-plus-side-quests-in-one would be.

EM has, right now, about 40% of the 150 members it took to make ACII, and they have a goal of finishing the game in 1 year and 2 or 3 months from now. Unless Square-Enix grants them more time, and they go over their goal of a 24-month development cycle, or unless EM changes their goal of having no more than 80 persons on the team in the end, Thief 4 has automatic natural restrictions on what the team can and will achieve, and it's a lot easier on everybody if they make a single solid focused game. Since T4 will be EM's second game ever, with a goal of making industry-changing games and making their mark, and with the reception of DX3 unknown at this time, T4 can't be self-sabotaged by the team trying to cram so much into it in a short time.




I've yet to see a game that contains even half the material the devs imagined for it. The imagination just easily does things that cannot be translated into C++.

Mugsey05
22nd Feb 2010, 04:17
I just have a feeling that any game they produce that will try to manipulate a storyline that is more or less complete as is will just feel too much like a desperate bid for more money. A successful revamp of the series can do so much more than a forced prequel or sequel can when there isn't all that much to add to the storyline without completely changing the nature of progression of the game. At that point you're just whoring out the title for as much as you can get, and no matter how you dress it up, a whore will always lack any real satisfaction when you finish. I would prefer to see the developers take a risk with something that could turn out great than to see a lackluster product turn up on the shelves because a few people got greedy and took the path of least resistance.

Loup
22nd Feb 2010, 09:54
Mugsey, do you even realise the amount of work that would be needed just to remake all the missions of thief 1,2,3? Then you suggest a openworld? I guess you want a freely roamable city? You are talking about making mechanics for one game, and then content for at least 4 if not 5 games if you count the extra missions between training and Bafford's, TDP ending and TMA start.

Are you serious with this suggestion or do you simply not have a clue about game development?

And for "chester_1" I made you this comic strip since you simply miss the point that I make when I write them.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7694/communicationq.jpg

You still haven't given us a single example of how the story will progress and how it would be made compelling except that it is interesting to see how Garrett turned out the way he did.

Your example with Starwars is simply idiotic since it spans a much greater range of characters, places, intrigues etc than in between training and Bafford's.

As said before, the storywriters will have to keep to the setting. That setting, less tools, less contacts, no involvement no links to the prophecy will force the game to drop part of the mechanics, not give us any huge interesting missions or special locations like angelwatch, haunted cathedral etc. Just because we want to find out more about what Garrett did before Bafford's does not mean that it would be a good game. The writers will have to keep within the setting and if they detract to much from it, the prequel will feel pushed and out of place when it tries to sum it all up for TDP.

jtr7
22nd Feb 2010, 10:07
:lol::lmao:




And although that backstory may be of interest to us fans, and although we experts could play with less gadgets and a less-skilled Garrett, it would be amazing if EM would make a Thief game where there are less gadgets and skills and knowledge for the players to work with, when so many mass-market players are asking for more more more equipment and abilities.

Mugsey05
22nd Feb 2010, 19:08
Thank you, Loup, I do have an idea of how much work this would entail and I am aware of the development process for a game. Seeing as neither I nor Cheater has disrespected you personally, it would be appreciated if you could show the same courtesy and conduct yourself with a modicum of civility unless you wish to continue behaving like an ill-mannered jackass.

I understand it would be an ambitious undertaking, but ambition is what leads to improvement. If you're fine with saying "oh, well it's just too much work," fine. But, seeing as you seem to agree with my views that the story is more or less completed, there doesn't seem to be too many other places for Garret to go. I would rather see a smooth, finished revision and expansion of the older games than some flashy forced addition lacking any real substance.

I'm not talking about reinventing the wheel, here. There are plenty of games with long plotlines, additional side quests, and an open "free roam" city. GTA, The Godfather, Zelda, Mafia, Baldur's Gate, Boiling Point, Far Cry 2, Assassin's Creed 2, Spiderman, and Prototype immediately come to mind. Yes, some of the games ran into difficulties, but those games all were brand new, they had to create new levels, design a story line, design characters, write dialogue, create new game engines or manipulate existing ones to make the games work, so it's understandable that there would be a few glitches and bugs along the way, as well as some ideas that get abandoned due to budget restrictions or lack of time.

By reworking the original Thief games, much of that work would be reduced. Yes, there would be a lot of intensive coding to be done, but most of the story would already be there, the characters are already there, most of dialogue would already be written. Most of the elements that make for a truly great game are already there (plot, cast of characters, historical background), the only thing lacking is that we haven't been able to get a good look at the world which contains them. As far as your comments about the additional material between the plots of the games, I had suggested filling those with cut scenes and maybe an extra training mission following the Keeper training mission in TDP, I fail to see how you think that would constitute enough material to cover in two games.

Loup
22nd Feb 2010, 20:39
Thank you, Loup, I do have an idea of how much work this would entail and I am aware of the development process for a game. Seeing as neither I nor Cheater has disrespected you personally, it would be appreciated if you could show the same courtesy and conduct yourself with a modicum of civility unless you wish to continue behaving like an ill-mannered jackass.

I understand it would be an ambitious undertaking, but ambition is what leads to improvement. If you're fine with saying "oh, well it's just too much work," fine. But, seeing as you seem to agree with my views that the story is more or less completed, there doesn't seem to be too many other places for Garret to go. I would rather see a smooth, finished revision and expansion of the older games than some flashy forced addition lacking any real substance.

There are plenty of games with long plotlines, additional side quests, and an open "free roam" city. GTA, The Godfather, Zelda, Mafia, Baldur's Gate, Boiling Point, Far Cry 2, Assassin's Creed 2, Spiderman, and Prototype immediately come to mind. Yes, some of the games ran into difficulties, but those games all were brand new, they had to create new levels, design a story line, design characters, write dialogue, create new game engines or manipulate existing ones to make the games work, so it's understandable that there would be a few glitches and bugs along the way, as well as some ideas that get abandoned due to budget restrictions or lack of time.

By reworking the original Thief games, much of that work would be reduced. Yes, there would be a lot of intensive coding to be done, but most of the story would already be there, the characters are already there, most of dialogue would already be written. Most of the elements that make for a truly great game are already there (plot, cast of characters, historical background), the only thing lacking is that we haven't been able to get a good look at the world which contains them. As far as your comments about the additional material between the plots of the games, I had suggested filling those with cut scenes and maybe an extra training mission following the Keeper training mission in TDP, I fail to see how you think that would constitute enough material to cover in two games.

I might have been a little rude which I apologize for. The tone against Cheater is because he has been going on like this in various threads and never making any concrete arguments or examples.

The whole point of either making a prequel or sequel is to find a good foundation for making a good story. The general tone on the forum suggests that people are still interested in Garrett and seeing more of him, and in a new story. You state that
Garret is a completely changed person at this point; he is no longer a thief, but the "One True Keeper" that the everyone had been waiting for to replace the "First Keeper" as head of the Keeper Order. Even supposing the developers disregarded the previous indicators that there was to be a time of peace following the prevention of the coming Dark Age, since Garret isn't a thief anymore, there'd be no more looting, no more pickpocketing, or anything of that nature; to do justice to the storyline, it would either be Garret sitting behind a desk giving orders to fellow Keepers or Garret going out himself to root through drawers for information about this or that.

This is your interpretation of the ending, and it is an interpretation among other interpretations. There is actually nothing that pins Garrett to being changed or going to command the keepers. This is your own speculations. A completely different interpretation of the ending of TDS is that Garrett is finally free to do what he want. There is no prophecy which holds him to any certain path. Why would Garrett give up being a thief? Do you really mean that you think that Garrett, when he is finally free of the keepers, that he'd turn 180 degrees and lead them? This is nothing but your own speculations and does don't even add up to the fact delivered in the story and Garrett's attitude though out all of the three games. He has finally been rid of them. Please point out what makes you think that this is a plausible interpretation.

If you check the thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=100112&page=7) about the possible continuation after TDS you'll see that no one want a story which feels desperate or far fetched. Following Garrett for another game should only be done if it is done in a good way. If the story writers can't come up with a relevant and convincing continuation then the idea of a sequel should indeed be scrapped.

Your idea of adding a open world is what makes me question you knowledge since just the open world is a huge undertaking which still hasn't been perfected in any game yet. It requires a whole team only focusing on building and filling it with content which, without counting the actual missions and storyline, represents the time and money for development of a single game (and the things that happens between training and Bafford's could be enough for a storyline, even if it would be very restricted and rather mundane, hence 5 games in my earlier post.) It is also the issue with quality. I want a good game, not a game with a huge chunk of content And to what point and purpose? Open world is discussed in this (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=98741&page=9) thread and I'll gladly discuss it further.

But the main issue is that you idea of refining thief is that is simply make the whole thing all over again while people want something new.

jtr7
22nd Feb 2010, 21:13
It's time to ask again:

Why do 30 seconds of the final cutscene mean more to some of you than the entire frikkin' story right up to that point, including Garrett's reaffirmation earlier in the same cutscene--after the Final Glyph's activation--that he's still Garrett and glad to be rid of the Glyphs? Huh? No Glyphs means no Keepers. You'd know that if you paid attention to the entire trilogy instead of fixating on 30 seconds entirely out of context! Sorry, it's not as open to interpretation as you want to say it is, when Garrett himself stated he never wanted to see another Glyph again before "she" showed up. And since the Final Glyph was activated, and after such a crazy journey to make it happen, you want to casually decide none of it mattered. It's not only my "interpretation" to say the trilogy did matter. Not one of you who want Garrett to be a father-figure/mentor/leader has even attempted to give grounds for Garrett becoming another person altogether in light of the evidence to the contrary and certainly not without keeping it in context of the trilogy and everything leading up to Garrett pursuing the End of All Glyphs to intentionally bring about the End of Words, the Unwritten Times, etc., and none of you who want Garrett to be a father-figure/mentor/leader understand how there are no Keepers without the Glyph Prophecies, and how the story stated flatly there are no more prophecies, etc. You don't even try. You think what you want overrides reality. It can't, not without work, which you lift no finger to do.




You are NOT "interpreting" the story if you are simply ignoring 99.9% of it.

Mugsey05
22nd Feb 2010, 23:22
I might have been a little rude which I apologize for.
Accepted, I may have reacted a bit harshly, for which I also apologize.

As to both of your points on Garret's hatred of the Keeper's, it's true that he holds them with disdain for the majority (perhaps entirety) of the three games, but if he had no intention of further involvement with them, why would he go out of his way to identify himself as a Keeper? I admit that you are correct on my point about Garret being the new leader of the order, I extrapolated from a fragment of text stating that the First Keeper was a surrogate for the True Keeper, "whose eventual arrival [they] await with dread." It makes sense to me, but you are correct, there are certainly other ways to interpret those words.

As to Jtr7, when did the trilogy say that the glyphs and glyph prophecies preceded the Keepers? There's another quote that states "the earliest writings on the glyphs were indeed cautionary...yet remarkably, regrettably inadequate." If the glyphs preceded the Keepers, then who was it taking these first notes on the glyphs? Is it not entirely possible that there was a pre-existing order who, having dedicated themselves to preserving the city's balance, adopted the glyphs after learning how to use and control them? Orland does say towards the end of TDS that "the glyphs have become our [the Keepers] keepers." Once again, this is only my interpretation of these quotes, but couldn't that mean that there was a point in Keeper history that did not depend upon the use of glyphs? If not, what would be the point of all the stealth training and the combat training when they could have all simply used their glyph doors/the teleportation glyph and used the little glyph shirukens. There has to be a reason that the Keepers would have developed the physical component to the training, it wouldn't make sense to put oneself through rigorous physical and stealth training if it was possible to just use magic to get around and kill one's enemies.

Once again, that's just the way I came to understand the elements of the game. By all means let me know if there are other quotes in the game that directly contradict my interpretations.

cheater_1
22nd Feb 2010, 23:42
Whoa! Whoa! WOAH!!

I think a few people here need to take a STEP back and stop treating Thief like it's a world that actually EXISTS.

I will NEVER provide any concrete examples. That's be design. It's not ANYONE'S place to talk about storyline and what is possible or what is not possible.

JTR is the epitome of the overzealous fan who treats THIEF as if there are concrete rules to follow. Things can only happen this way or that way. Blah blah blah. Once again, it is the writer's who come up with the story. If they want to create a SEQUEL that KILLS OFF Garrett in the opening scene, so be it. If they want his illegitimate midget son to be the next Thief, so be it. If they want to start out Thief 4 by having Garrett wake up from a bad dream (a dream that was Thief Deadly Shadows) and make Thief 4 the second half to TMA, so be it. If they want Garrett to fall through a time portal and make Thief 4 set in the future with him wielding rocket launchers and laser guns, Go with it.

DO you all get where I'm going? There is not TOO MUCH that is sacred as far as storyline goes. Now, my outrageous examples will never happen, but it not for US to write the story and endlessly talk about what Garrett would do. The more I think about it, the more I hope EM makes a FEW shocking changes in the storyline. (I'd really like to see something wacky like dream sequences incorporated into the gameplay or even the killing off of Garrett if this is to be the last Thief Game produced).

If Eidos does indeed go with a sequel (the SAFE bet) then they better compensate in other areas and not just make the standard "part 4" that continues part 3. Look at the success of any book, movie, game, play, after the original trilogy has run it's course. It's abyssmal for the most part.

I'd even be open to a MIDQUEL that happens between TDP and TMA.

Namdrol
22nd Feb 2010, 23:53
Cheater_1 my heart sinks when I see your name as having just posted.
You leave yourself so wide open with your moronic posts and I'm desperate to give them the replies they deserve.
But having looked at the myspace page you link to from here as your homepage, I have serious doubts as to your mental state, so I feel it would be too cruel to speak to you as I would if I thought you were sane.

jtr7
23rd Feb 2010, 00:03
I want Thief, cheater. You want some game that involves stealing. If you want Calvinball, then I suggest you petition for the SDK/Editor so you can make the game you want, meanwhile, I'll hope for a game that more resembles Thief than some other game.

I'll ask you again, what makes Thief...Thief? What do all the games have in common? That's Thief. What does Thief do and have that no other game has? And I'm not talking poly-count or resolutions of sounds and textures. That is Thief. 1+1=2, I don't care if you disagree, you're wrong. The protagonist's name is Garrett, he's male, he lived some part of his youth on the streets and was recruited into the Keeper Order. At what point do you stop believing what you are told by the devs, and go off into your own world where nothing is what it simply is anymore? What makes Chess not Checkers? What makes Baseball not Cricket? There are rules and they make a thing what they are, and your preference doesn't matter against the facts.


EM could absolutely make a game called Thief 4 about Squire Shaunus's career in the City's Rumpleball League. EM could certainly make a game about climbing Mt. Everest and stealing someone else's glory. The only changes I expect EM to make will be for profits and ego, because nothing else makes sense.




And as a fan, I only get loud and fanatical (a synonym of zealous, if you didn't know), when suggestions are made that have nothing to do with the game at hand. No, the game shouldn't include a minigame of pin-the-tail on Basso. No it shouldn't give you everything Oblivion and GTA give you. No it shouldn't be like Assassin's Creed. The more you scream for absurd additions and to water the game down with things that lose its focus, and believe stupidly that more is better in a Thief game, the more I will tell you "No". If you can't defend your stance while respecting what makes Thief unique and special in the industry, I will tell you "No." As a proud fanatic, I oppose all idea that demonstrate gross ignorance of even the basics yet are delivered as though they are valid in how the new game should be made, and I oppose all ideas that demonstrate disrespect for what Thief is that other games are not. You have demonstrated you don't know what makes Thief unique and wonderful and precious, and that you do no care. Someone has to care, and I'm glad it's me and my fellows.



No, the Thief world does not really exist, but the words and images that tell an existing story do exist and you are all too willing to corrupt and pollute it for not one good reason. The protagonist's name is Garrett. Tell me I'm wrong. The games say and show many things that a new game with a "4" appended to it should respect. For you to tell me it does not, is your problem, and I expect EM to know what the game says and what it does not. If EM makes a game that turns Thief into some industry cliche, no one here is obligated to play it, support it, or care. Why are you picking on Thief and wanting it to be ruined? What is your compulsion?

Loup
23rd Feb 2010, 00:20
I think a few people here need to take a STEP back and stop treating Thief like it's a world that actually EXISTS.

The issue is not that anyone is treating it as a existing world, but simply having an interest in a story which actually fits the already given events.



I will NEVER provide any concrete examples.

If you are implying that you will never back up anything that you say with an actual argument or example I think it is time to start ignoring you.


It's not ANYONE'S place to talk about storyline and what is possible or what is not possible.

Not anyone's place? Your are aware that you are writing in a thread which is located in a forum which is made for the very purpose that the dev's can listen in on the discussion about Thief? It is not even about what is possible or not. It is possible to have the story revolve around a plant named Tim but that is not relevant. Coming with ideas of a storyline, with or without Garrett is though. If your aren't interested in discussing then you should stop posting.



JTR is the epitome of the overzealous fan who treats THIEF as if there are concrete rules to follow. Things can only happen this way or that way.

And you continually fail to grasp that simply ignoring the storyline of the older games and all its aspects is not a good foundation of neither a sequel or prequel. It is not even about not being able to think outside of the box, people have being doing so in various threads about possible other storylines and different kinds of protagonists. The thread you are currently posting in is about a prequel. And by being a prequel it needs something to be a prequel to, which in this case is the given story.



If Eidos does indeed go with a sequel (the SAFE bet) then they better compensate in other areas and not just make the standard "part 4" that continues part 3. Look at the success of any book, movie, game, play, after the original trilogy has run it's course. It's abyssmal for the most part.


And yet another generalisation which adds nothing to the discussion.

BigCole
23rd Feb 2010, 03:41
Here's an idea for the story: what about having Garrett going back to stealing again, but instead of just a regular pickpocket, he's more of a Robin Hood type?

The city might be in an economic recession (similar to the beginning of T2 when he said it was hard to find enough loot) and the Baffords might be found to be stealing from the common folk, or there is a new oppressive government that forms as a result of what occured at the end of TDS.

It seems believable enough to me. There is a lot of populist sentiment going on right now, why not incorporate it into the game?

I see it playing out this way: There is a new worry among the populace after the Keepers have been exposed and the statues and the Hag assaulted the city, so a very totalitarian government is elected and they immediately begin persecuting former Keepers. Because of all the damage that is done to the city, spending goes up on trials and persecutions, and the rich are taking advantage of the poor. Garrett goes on a quest to thwart the rich people by stealing from just people like the Baffords, and maybe you can implement a good/evil scale like Fable so if you steal from the common folk you go more evil, but if you steal from the government you go more good.

There's a lot that could be said about the aftermath of TDS that wouldn't tarnish Garrett's newfound selflessness. I think it would make good faction based drama play out too.

Rahl
23rd Feb 2010, 07:41
Here's an idea for the story: what about having Garrett going back to stealing again, but instead of just a regular pickpocket, he's more of a Robin Hood type?


Garrett and Robin Hood in the same sentence? This is the worst idea i read on this forum so far...

glyph07
23rd Feb 2010, 07:43
Garrett and Robin Hood in the same sentence? This is the worst idea i read on this forum so far...

Auch! U're right, it really hurts!:mad2:

jtr7
23rd Feb 2010, 08:06
If these guys were given a game that had all their un-Thiefy suggestions, would they leave us alone to enjoy our Thief games?

glyph07
23rd Feb 2010, 09:46
If these guys were given a game that had all their un-Thiefy suggestions, would they leave us alone to enjoy our Thief games?

I think not, they'd come here still, saying things such as:"See? We played it and it was awsome, it was like Thief, just better!" :mad:

jtr7
23rd Feb 2010, 09:52
I thought of that, and they'd feel proud for spending their time that way. I fear EM will actually think these guys deserve their ideas to be made tangible under the banner of Thief 4.

Loup
23rd Feb 2010, 09:53
So we should ignore that Garrett haven't cared a rats ass about people before this? And then we should lump everything which in the thief universe is driven by different neutral agendas into two generalizing categories "good" and "bad"?

It always strikes me how the dumbest ideas always comes out of people who seriously think that things are either good or bad out of a universal rule instead of grasping that what is good can be bad and bad can be good depending on your point of view. Like the whole idea of chaos vs order. It is not like any of the factions are the baddies but they see each other as evil.

Leave the good and bad generalizations to children's stories and propaganda.

glyph07
23rd Feb 2010, 10:22
I guess I don't see your post as problems with a prequel, jtr7. They all look like fantastic story development opportunities to me.

The obesrvations made by Jtr7 in relation to a prequel I believe are xfectly reasonable as yours becuase they talk about ipothetic scenarios and they depend also on how much far back in time this prequel would go.

However, let me tell u why I'm not happy about a prequel:

1) I'd never, ever, ever would know anything about Garrett before TDP (more than the few details we already know that is). As a fan and as player, I find thrilling the fact that mystery is kept around this character. I'm very passionate about the story line of the series and to me, as far as Thief is concerned showing too much of the past is a true spoiler, a ruin for the athmosphere surrounding the game, and above all, something completely opposite to Garrett's way of being. Now, I accept that the games are not only about Garrett, but I believe that their strengh lays also in the fact that they are impreganted with Garrett's philosophy of life: mystery, silence and shadow.

2) Considering the inconsistencies already present in TDS in relation to the precedent games, I find incredibly difficult to think that EM would really manage to create a prequel perfectly sound and coherent with TDP and TMA. If a prequel showed the same faults of TDS, as far as the story line is concerned, it'd be really a disaster. Quite frankly the risk is not worth the attempt. Besides, I'd rather have EM concentrated in creating a sequel, where some of the inconsistences of TDS are somehow explained, or adjusted.

jtr7
23rd Feb 2010, 10:48
To remark again to that Teazsa quote:

The ideas sound good because they are built and extrapolated from what we've been given. The appeal is the story, not playing a game that is essentially underdeveloped Thief and undoing everything that the story and arc have done. It's fine for a graphic novel, as long as it's written to be more powerful than the story told in the games. In order for me to be interested in a prequel, the writing has to be the strongest material and really show honestly, not cheaply and easily, the reasons for Garrett's jaded and sociopathic stunting. Done well (whatever that means), the prequel would make the story of the games heavier and darker and richer, but that would be a miraculous gift of writing that is so rare in the industry. Therefore, I don't want it. And I want a game that shows what Garrett's gonna do now with his world changed so fundamentally and how alien it is now, and not be locked into a set of plots and sub-plots that must terminate cleanly at a preset point called The Dark Project. A good prequel cannot turn any of the established story into confusion, especially any aspect that is revered by the community. The sequel, however, is much looser, but still cannot create confusion of the past, and must understand and hold to the themes, though it can rearrange them and play with them.

ToMegaTherion
23rd Feb 2010, 12:13
The idea that the protagonist of the next element of a series has to be the same protagonist as the previous element is simply dogma. Such a strong statement has no foundation in either logic or precedent.

Just to give a hint to stop people wasting their time writing irrelevant posts: citing a lot of things where the protagonist is always the same does not count as precedent here.

Loup
23rd Feb 2010, 13:14
The idea that the protagonist of the next element of a series has to be the same protagonist as the previous element is simply dogma. Such a strong statement has no foundation in either logic or precedent.

Just to give a hint to stop people wasting their time writing irrelevant posts: citing a lot of things where the protagonist is always the same does not count as precedent here.

I don't see any post in which people have stated that Garrett have to be the protagonist just because he was the protagonist in TDP, TMA and TDS. The discussion is based on if he is the protagonist.

So what are you getting at?

ToMegaTherion
23rd Feb 2010, 13:49
Apologies everyone, I was reading an earlier page of the discussion and didn't realise there were further pages, so my comment above was rather out-of-context.

So, to make an attempt at a constructive post instead, I'd like to pick up on something jtr7 just said that I think is pretty important and quite central to a lot of the discussions that go on round here. He effectively makes the point that there is nothing really like Thief, in many aspects, not just a few. And I think we can probably extend that to "...and there never will be". This leaves us in a problematic position, where we all have things like Thief but not quite like Thief that we'd really like to see. But we'll never see those things, unless they're in a game with the "Thief" title. That's the only way they'll ever come into being. This is quite troublesome: for most games when you have some ideas you want explored you'll just haver to sit back, relax, and wait until games of that type appear. It is difficult to see a satisfactory resolution. Actually, no, I'd go so far as to say it's impossible to reach a satisfactory solution. Either the group who want Thief games to mean something very "pure" will end up disappointed, or the people who want some thief-related idea that isn't quite pure Thief will never ever see it appear. There is no escape.

BigCole
23rd Feb 2010, 17:10
Auch! U're right, it really hurts!:mad2:

And who gave you guys the title of "Arbiter of Garrett's character?"

Sorry, but you die hard fans make up about 1-5% of all the Thief fans out there. Stop dismissing ideas that aren't your own.

I think most of you people just really want The Metal Age with a graphics lift, god forbid they try to take the character in a new direction or anything :rolleyes:

Pieter888
23rd Feb 2010, 20:10
And who gave you guys the title of "Arbiter of Garrett's character?"

Sorry, but you die hard fans make up about 1-5% of all the Thief fans out there. Stop dismissing ideas that aren't your own.

I think most of you people just really want The Metal Age with a graphics lift, god forbid they try to take the character in a new direction or anything :rolleyes:

I don't like the idea either simply because:
Garrett: takes from everyone, gives to himself.
Robin Hood: takes from the rich, gives to the poor.

It doesn't fit:scratch:

BigCole
23rd Feb 2010, 20:15
The only reason I suggested that is because someone earlier posted that Garrett couldn't continue being regular selfish Garrett. He is the one and only true Keeper now and that bestows some new set of responsibilites on him (which we don't know what they are).

Pieter888
23rd Feb 2010, 20:27
The only reason I suggested that is because someone earlier posted that Garrett couldn't continue being regular selfish Garrett. He is the one and only true Keeper now and that bestows some new set of responsibilites on him (which we don't know what they are).

Good point, though I like the non-caring-self-centred Garrett as he is like now.

I wonder how the story will progress if Garrett won't poke his nose in businesses where it doesn't belong, I guess trouble will have to find him instead :rolleyes:


However Garrett should go back to stealing somehow anyway, his money will deplete sooner or later and Garrett is not really a guy who would apply for a job in a store... well a liquor store maybe :whistle:

jtr7
23rd Feb 2010, 23:25
Garrett always pokes his nose in others' business. And they can't have anything to do whatsoever with the Keepers or the Prophecies, and Garrett's next moves have to be unknown by others for once.


Garrett already did his job as One True Keeper. He did the one act that no other Keeper would or could do, and he stopped the Keeper corruption. It's time to move on. He has nothing and no one to guide him like he did through the whole trilogy. He got what he always wanted. Let him have it, and let him have the consequences of getting his deepest wish. Once again, you are fixating on a few seconds of a cutscene rather than putting it squarely in the context of the rest of the 99.99999% of the story.

Loup
23rd Feb 2010, 23:27
The only reason I suggested that is because someone earlier posted that Garrett couldn't continue being regular selfish Garrett. He is the one and only true Keeper now and that bestows some new set of responsibilites on him (which we don't know what they are).

And what suggest that he, "as the true keeper" has any responsibilities to attend to?
We don't know anything about any new responsibilities because there is nothing that suggest that he has any.

Compared to people like you who tend to ignore the actual foundations of discussing things which presenting arguments based on facts, others try to actually make out what has been told in the story and by looking at the characters behaviour, recognize a pattern which reflects the characters general point of views.

By doing people does not react positively to suggestions that does not make the slightest sense to what we already know about the character.



Stop dismissing ideas that aren't your own.


It is not about dismissing ideas that are different from other peoples, but dismissing ideas that does not make the slightest of sense compared to what we know about the character.
It makes just as little sense as if I suggested that Garrett should have a keyblade in thief 4 because some absurd speculation between seeing a key shaped scar and bright lights.


You on the other hand has shown that you do exactly what you proclaim that other people are doing.

You think that Garrett has changed, based on speculations. Then you state a idea which is dismissed, and in response you dismiss not that person, but try to generalize it to a whole group which you then further generalize as fanatics.



I think most of you people just really want The Metal Age with a graphics lift, god forbid they try to take the character in a new direction or anything

Even more speculations and a very poor attempt to fanatizise people who actually present arguments compared to people who base everything they say on opinions or speculations and ignores any context and earlier placed arguments.

What I know, there is not a single person of the frequent posters on this forum who wants revamped TMA.

jtr7
23rd Feb 2010, 23:35
I know it's hard to keep in mind, but this is a Thief forum, not a general gaming forum. If you can't keep your suggestions for T4 Thief-related, then many of your ideas will have no grounding and won't be received. If you'd read the threads, you'd know that we've gotten quite controversial while keeping it Thief-related, and have made radical suggestions that don't trample the heart of Thief.

Which is worse? Dismissing un-Thiefy ideas or dismissing Thief? You are dismissing the very games T4 should be a sequel to, and therefore, your ideas are being dismissed. Keep it rooted in Thief, show respect for Thief's heart and soul, learn something about the industry (we'll know if you don't), and you'll have ideas that are informed.



If you don't like Thief and want to change most of what it is, why are you here if not to be trouble-maker? T4 should be a Thief game. How's that incorrect? How is it that when you have no argument, you all make the same fallacious claims. I want T4 to be faithful to the roots of TDP/TMA, not be TDPand TMA. They are the starting point, the building blocks, but you have not read much here if you can honestly believe we aren't pushing for a game that offers more than any game out there right now. You want Thief to be a follower of other industry cliches, and we want Thief to be a leader that other games are intimidated by and respect and can only aspire to be. We want to see T4 blow the trilogy away (appearances are secondary, gameplay is number one) while being faithful to the core design principles. I want to see Thief push industry boundaries, and get away with breaking with convention. Making it like other games is playing it safe and taking the easy path to money. Join us, join us now!

You've dismissed us, and you complain you are being dismissed. See the problem? You've dismissed what we love about Thief.

BigCole
24th Feb 2010, 01:21
If you don't like Thief and want to change most of what it is, why are you here if not to be trouble-maker?

Because you don't have a monopoly on what makes Thief Thief. You've already clearly shown your disdain for most of TDS when I loved that game. I still think the best one out of all of them was TDP, and my least favorite was TMA. The only reason I think TDP was better than TDS was because the first one had HUGE missions, and the atmosphere in some of them were just superb. I also think that the first one had more freedom in terms of movement, you couldn't swim in the third one, and in the first one swimming turned out to be quite useful in some cases (the Prison and the Bonehoard come to mind). And there were no rope arrows in the third one, and the gloves came in handy...not very often. Like I've said before, I think this is because the developers tried to make the game for the Xbox and not solely for the PC, thus the game felt physically restraining.

As far as the story is concerned, I do think Garrett has a new sense of responsibility he didn't have before. How could he not? While the Keepers were corrupt in the third one, they (Garrett) did spend an awful lot of time in the first two trying to keep the balance. With that power vacuum, it's only a matter of time before some faction tries to gain control again.

Edit:

And I also dunno why you guys think I'm dismissing Thief. I love these games or else I wouldn't be on these forums. I've been wanting a sequel for years now, and I'm really looking forward to it and seeing what the Devs can do with the universe now. The reason I'm complaining is that you guys seem to not care for any new ideas whatsoever (calling them unthiefy) when I think it's new ideas that constantly make games evolve to be great. I don't think Garrett's character should be changed, just evolved. It's not impossible to have a selfish character perform good works, that's the whole point of an anti-hero.

esme
24th Feb 2010, 13:25
new tomb raider game announced

this time Lara Croft finds herself as a male human cyborg resembling a certain californian governator sent back from the future to ancient egypt to ensure the future happens so cyborgs never get developed - any paradoxes resolved in future games ... maybe

battle against aliens armed with virus weapons bent on wiping out humanity so they can use the pyramids as landing pads for their spacecraft

wade through firestorms of bullets taking heinous damage and deliver non lethal solutions to the enemy aliens to preserve the 12 rating

you are our last hope, never give up, never surrender

bit of a departure from the normal Lara Croft character but hey the busty, fiesty, fat a*sed bimbette with guns look is so yesterday so we decided to ignore all the prior work we put into developing the character and go in a new direction


with apologies to eidos, the tomb raider authors, the entire tomb raider franchise, james cameron and the entire terminator franchise, the entire stargate franchise and the entire galaxy quest franchise

ToMegaTherion
24th Feb 2010, 13:52
It seems clear to me that a Thief / Galaxy Quest crossover would be so awesome it would hurt.

esme
24th Feb 2010, 16:05
It seems clear to me that a Thief / Galaxy Quest crossover would be so awesome it would hurt.

but only if it were "done properly"™, of course

otherwise it would just be a cheap knock off of a worthy pair of franchises

I'm trademarking the use of the phrase "done properly"™ and all of it's variants as no one has actually defined what this means, all subsequent uses will require payment of 0.07 GBP to myself, paypal and all major credit cards accepted and cash is never refused

Flashart
24th Feb 2010, 17:17
If T4 follows TDS then Garrett could be changed enough to become a guardian, a monk, or an alcoholic, or anything if he so wishes. It's that wide open.
A prequel (to me) serves no real purpose than to deny TDS ever existed. I'd rather bite the bullet and develop the story from TDS that way you can introduce elements that maybe only come to fruition in T6 etc. TDS ending wasn't great but at least it's a blank enough page to build from. Any prequel has to suffer from us knowing where Garrett is during T1, T2 and TDS. I'll agree you could get some interesting stories in the gaps but it's not driving the overall story onwards.
Where I can see value in a form of prequel, is with an expansion disc, with an editor and maybe a collection of individual prequel set missions.

Loup
24th Feb 2010, 18:01
As far as the story is concerned, I do think Garrett has a new sense of responsibility he didn't have before. How could he not? While the Keepers were corrupt in the third one, they (Garrett) did spend an awful lot of time in the first two trying to keep the balance. With that power vacuum, it's only a matter of time before some faction tries to gain control again.


Garrett has never cared for the balance. The whole idea of "the balance" only the keepers view of the power struggle in the city and their own philosophy around the need of balancing the different powers. None of his actions was personally grounded in the struggle to "maintain and correct the balance". Garrett acted in the first game out of a mix of that the whole thing got kind of personal with his eye and the fact that he didn't like the possible outcome if the trickster would succeed since it would be a risk for his own survival. The same reason in TMA. And in TDS, well they tried in a quite bad manner to portray that Garrett in the end of TMA wanted to learn more about what is written. I do admit that TDS has a story which is quite confused about how it is supposed to portray Garrett. Is he supposed to show interests in the affairs? And to what extent? Is it only about the things which actually is about him?
In the end it comes out a little dull and cliché without actually portraying anything about his own opinions or thoughts. One thing is sure though. He is free of the prophecy and by this time he is really tired of being a part of the whole thing. He is not a "true keeper" in the sense of the super hero who will continue seek to "balance" the powers. He is the true keeper within the prophecy since is actions leads to what has been foretold. Prophecy is not about making people do things, but fortelling events which does not need to explain why they will occur. It is nothing that suggests that Garrett acted as he did in TDS "in fear of the Balance being upset"



The reason I'm complaining is that you guys seem to not care for any new ideas whatsoever (calling them unthiefy) when I think it's new ideas that constantly make games evolve to be great. I don't think Garrett's character should be changed, just evolved. It's not impossible to have a selfish character perform good works, that's the whole point of an anti-hero.

You still don't get it...
It is not about any suggestions, it is still only the suggestions which is simply out of context to the character. Letting a character evolve is not about adding something that does not go with his earlier persona. It is about making the character change slowly by what changes around him. Nothing gave us the slightest hint that he had actually have changed, except for actually having a slightly more interest in actually cooperating with the keepers which is clearly stated by his interest in the prophecy.

jtr7
25th Feb 2010, 03:32
How Garrett became "Big Daddy" and found out he had a Little Sister:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/GIdeaComic.jpg

Loup
25th Feb 2010, 09:33
I actually thought that he was about to fire his lazor in the third line. ^^

The last picture is the nuclear reaction of paradox which is that Garrett would actually start caring about other people. Which wipes out the whole city replacing it with flowers and pink bunnies.

ToMegaTherion
25th Feb 2010, 09:35
I don't really mind whether Thief 4 is a sequel, a prequel, exists between two of the previous games, or whatever, as long as it isn't cheesy and, in particular, I don't hear the words "the balance".

jtr7
25th Feb 2010, 09:47
Well there goes the prequel, and there goes the Garrett is still the One True Keeper and/or starting a new Order concepts. :p

ToMegaTherion
25th Feb 2010, 09:51
Well... if you start the prequel after Garrett has left the Keepers and don't actually have any Keepers talking, you can probably escape the phrase "the balance". It'd be a stretch, but there would be some quite cool potential there; I have an image of a game where, for those unfamiliar with the storyline of the series, the whole Keepers and Balance thing isn't at all thrust in their faces, so they get some story about some thief, while there are subtle messages for the old timers, without being at all obvious, that tells us it is a particular story about a particular Thief.

The starting a new Order concept would fail the cheesiness test anyway.

Loup
25th Feb 2010, 11:49
It could be a 4 hour long game based only on quick time events where two keepers are discussing the possible metaphysical aspects of order and chaos.... and the balance. Fully ported from console with loading screens saying "press x in the right moment to get keeper X to counter Keeper Y's argument about the idea of the dualism being restricting to the knowledge of the universe".

Teasza
25th Feb 2010, 13:23
I have MUCH better things to do than go back NEARLY one year and check to see if someone spoke about something I'm about to bring up today...GREAT ideas must be revisited and NOT merged onto some obscure thread that is more POORLY executed than the newer one (ah, that would be mine).

I am SHOCKED and HURT.

;)

Anyhow, I still think a prequel has a lot of merit, for the reasons I discussed in the OP. We have very little information about Garrett's life before Bafford's Manor; there are loads of hints of juicy stuff that happened before we are introduced to him in TDP. How he found the light gem, for example, and how he managed to stay separate from the Thieves' Guild and the numerous other underworld factions. There is no reason a storyline before said mission should revolve around an inexperienced Garrett - it's a gradual rise in skill, after all. It's not like he was a novice all the way up to Bafford's, and then BAM, he was a master. He's clearly been a skilled enough thief to work up a significant reputation before TDP begins.

That said, if it's a choice between accepting a sequel or being lumped into the same category as cheater_1, I'll, er... go for the sequel.

Loup
25th Feb 2010, 16:31
nah Teasza, we won't lump you into the same category. And your post is much better executed than his, which was some confused ideas of sequels being bad in general and that he is in some kind of position to demand thing by the developers.

He also states that he will never give a concrete example or argument for what he says so it is best to just ignore him from now on.

jtr7
25th Feb 2010, 20:57
Garrett's not inexperienced, he's much-less experienced. He's more rebellious but also less confident. He has less knowledge and experience of persons, places, and things, and only "places" is a good thing. He's never heard of Viktoria and the Trickster may as well be a myth for all he knows. It would be a game more suited to fans, and not a good game to start the series with, only because there would be even less newcomers who would like it. I'm not sure what story there could be to stretch out over 12 to 16 missions, when he dealt with Ramirez and the Thieves Guild both in one mission each. He wouldn't deal with them before that, except for ignoring their recruitment tactics.

cheater_1
25th Feb 2010, 23:15
Once yet again, HOW DARE you all insult the developers. Many people here have so little faith in THEIR ability to create a 20-30 hour game based on an approximate 25 YEAR SPAN of Garrett's life.

Don't argue the number, oh you predictable people. It's arbitrary. It's a SAFE bet that Garrett wasn't 12 years old in TDP, nor was he 45.

I am sickened. Repulsed. Embarrassed. I too am insulted that so many "fans"-- and I use that term loosely--think that the developers just couldn't MANAGE to create an interesting game that looked like, tasted like, smelled like, and sounded like TDP and TMA if it were set during the many years before TDP happened.

and you people call yourself fans of THIEF.........HA!

Namdrol
25th Feb 2010, 23:20
please, just stop...

jtr7
25th Feb 2010, 23:21
Of course, the more he keeps going, the easier it is for me to ignore. :D

Mugsey05
26th Feb 2010, 05:19
Loup, please forgive me for ever questioning your insults towards Cheater; I see now that they were entirely justified.

jtr7
26th Feb 2010, 05:28
A new day has dawned! \o/

Albi
26th Feb 2010, 07:12
I think that a prequel would be cool but at this point it is inevitable that the next game will be a sequel with a female protagonist. no point putting so much discussion into the "wat ifs" i rekon.

jtr7
26th Feb 2010, 07:56
Uh oh.

glyph07
26th Feb 2010, 09:17
I never understand Taffer's irony....but u're jocking Albi, aren't u?! :scratch:

Albi
26th Feb 2010, 09:28
why? am i wrong?

glyph07
26th Feb 2010, 09:42
Your "female protagonist" belongs to the " what ifs" too, just under a different chapter :D

Albi
26th Feb 2010, 09:46
its more than likely with garretts story comming full circle and the little girl being introduced at the end of TDS. i have no doubt in my mind that will be the game. maybe you will be Garrett but i dont think so.

jtr7
26th Feb 2010, 09:52
Aargh!

glyph07
26th Feb 2010, 09:57
Aargh!

Patience jtr7....be patient....breath in, breath out! ;)

Teasza
26th Feb 2010, 12:07
I think this thread should be renamed "The Mental Breakdown Thread".

glyph07
26th Feb 2010, 13:11
I think this thread should be renamed "The Mental Breakdown Thread".

hm...of the heretics or of the good samaritans who try, and try and try with all they might to make see sense? :D

Loup
26th Feb 2010, 13:29
its more than likely with garretts story comming full circle and the little girl being introduced at the end of TDS. i have no doubt in my mind that will be the game. maybe you will be Garrett but i dont think so.

Please Albi, the part about the girl, it is a joke right? Please tell us that.

esme
26th Feb 2010, 15:25
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:
oh for one single, solitary, solid, piece of taffin news about who will be the protagonist then we can get past this cr*p once and for all

for the builder sake René put us out of our misery on this one pleeeease I'm begging you

I'm going to have an aneurysm if I read one more post about is it going to be the girl is it going to be Garrett

Namdrol
26th Feb 2010, 17:45
Mind Albi hasn't said he wants the girl, just iho it will be.

esme
26th Feb 2010, 18:17
I didn't say he wanted the girl nam I'm not having a pop at anyone about this

I just think we have done this particular topic to death, zombified it, redone the animated corpse of it to death, woken up the zombie and are in the process of doing it to death again and one word from Squenix would kill all this endless rehashing of the same points over and over and over with nothing new ever brought to the table, like a well placed fire arrow.

the topic is done, in the absence of new information can we please let the poor thing die

it's not as if someone is going to come along in a days time and start with "actually if you look at this...." and we all end up grinning and sheepishly looking at each other for being so foolish, perhaps throwing in the odd ironic facepalm

sorry nam, sorry albi I'm not having a go at you I'm just starting to suffer a serious vacuum overload on the information front here, this continuing lack of information coupled with the endless going round in circles is starting to harsh my karma in a most egregious manner

--EDIT--

oh and I have some sort of flu so I'm a really unhappy bunny to start with

Platinumoxicity
26th Feb 2010, 18:59
Don't mind him. He's just someone who played TDS through once when it came out and after recently watching it's cutscenes on youtube he acts upon the vague concept of the series that emerged from that.

cheater_1
26th Feb 2010, 20:15
See, many of you are INSIDE the box. I am BOTH inside and outside the box. I transcend the BOX.

You all are ASSuming Garrett will return as the lead character of Thief 4. I bet a few of you are praying to the keepers that he will.

read as Yoda, "Hmm....too attached to Garrett you have become. Hhm. Train yourselves to let go of everything you hold dear. Attachment leads to jealousy, jealousy leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hateful have you become. HHhhmmm!!"

Garrett may have been my favorite video game character EVER. Steve Russell did a phenomenal job at bringing him to life. Yet, it wouldn't faze me in the LEAST if Garrett didn't make an appearance in Thief 4 at all.

TRUE fans feel as I do. It is the zealots who feel that Thief was CREATED just for their own enjoyment and must continue on in a part 4 that offers nothing more than better graphics. I mean, C'MON, the storyline is not even in the top 5 things that made Thief a game that WE HOLD DEAR. TRUE Thief fans know it is a combination of 1st person immersion, think before you act (non button mashing), great voice acting, superb graphics and locations, and the "sounds" of Thief that made us love the game. It needed a BARE BONES storyline to hold it all together. Let us sneak into a mansion and find what we needed to find and get out in one piece. Precede that with a 30 second set-up clip and THAT'S....ALL....WE....WANT and NEED.

And from what I know, anything IS STILL possible, at this point in time.

esme
26th Feb 2010, 20:32
you are a real person and not some mad hallucination sent by this bug to drive me insane with inane drivel are you ?

it's getting really difficult to be sure at the moment

jtr7
26th Feb 2010, 20:58
Don't feed the trolls. Whoops! I forgot, he likes the label and considers it a badge of honor. :lol:

glyph07
26th Feb 2010, 20:59
See, many of you are INSIDE the box. I am BOTH inside and outside the box. I transcend the BOX.

You all are ASSuming Garrett will return as the lead character of Thief 4. I bet a few of you are praying to the keepers that he will.

read as Yoda, "Hmm....too attached to Garrett you have become. Hhm. Train yourselves to let go of everything you hold dear. Attachment leads to jealousy, jealousy leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hateful have you become. HHhhmmm!!"

Garrett may have been my favorite video game character EVER. Steve Russell did a phenomenal job at bringing him to life. Yet, it wouldn't faze me in the LEAST if Garrett didn't make an appearance in Thief 4 at all.

TRUE fans feel as I do. It is the zealots who feel that Thief was CREATED just for their own enjoyment and must continue on in a part 4 that offers nothing more than better graphics. I mean, C'MON, the storyline is not even in the top 5 things that made Thief a game that WE HOLD DEAR. TRUE Thief fans know it is a combination of 1st person immersion, think before you act (non button mashing), great voice acting, superb graphics and locations, and the "sounds" of Thief that made us love the game. It needed a BARE BONES storyline to hold it all together. Let us sneak into a mansion and find what we needed to find and get out in one piece. Precede that with a 30 second set-up clip and THAT'S....ALL....WE....WANT and NEED.

And from what I know, anything IS STILL possible, at this point in time.

Hi! Hi! :lol: Cheater, u're so UNbelievable that for the FIrst time u MAde me GENuinely LAugh my Head off!

esme
26th Feb 2010, 21:22
Don't feed the trolls. Whoops! I forgot, he likes the label and considers it a badge of honor. :lol:

I find myself at one and the same time to be relieved and saddened that he isn't a hallucination

I almost prefer the feeling I had when I wasn't sure

this is really trippy

I blame the epinephrine

Namdrol
26th Feb 2010, 21:43
Check out cheaters myspace page which he has listed in his profile as his homepage. (self proclaimed greatest cheating internet chess player ever)
But you know what I like?
He's bugsh.it crazy, but here?
No more or less than us lot and it often feels contrived compared to the intensity of our passion for this old game.

esme
26th Feb 2010, 22:01
do you mind if I don't, I'm really not that interested in him

jtr7
26th Feb 2010, 22:08
You've just "taken your first step into a larger world." :p All his hot air, let right out through the wide open window. Ahhhhh....

esme
26th Feb 2010, 23:43
I always found it easier if I just didn't read his posts but in my addled state I was halfway through that one before I realised

it's all the capitals

it's very distinctive

and they're so long he puts so much effort into them

I almost feel guilty not reading them sometimes

is it normal to go lightheaded when you cough

jtr7
26th Feb 2010, 23:51
:lmao: :( :lol: :D

esme
27th Feb 2010, 00:18
oh great I can have some more pills then I can go to bed

yay :(

oh I have had some really strange dreams on these babies

they do seem to be shifting things

so nite y'all, sogni d'oro, an all that good stuff m'outtahere :zzZ:

Teasza
10th Mar 2010, 18:26
I think we should all club together and buy esme a bottle of vodka and a long weekend at a spa resort. With no mention of mysterious young girls following in their mentors' footsteps.

esme
10th Mar 2010, 23:57
sorry hon I had flu

I wouldn't recommend following in my footsteps, the tablets at night were those beechams flu plus things, they just gave me really weird dreams when I could sleep and they upset my tum too

too much ? .. too much !

the rest of the time I was knackered from lack of sleep or spaced out on various meds

maybe I should have stayed off the forums while I was ill

naaah :D

thanks for the vodka n spa thought ;)

Teasza
11th Mar 2010, 15:43
There's no ill that vodka and a spa can't cure! Except maybe a spa of vodka. But that's another story.

Quick, someone post a picture of Garrett relaxing in a vodka spa!

esme
11th Mar 2010, 16:28
give me vodka, a spa and chocolate and you can have Garrett ;)

..... hmmm I never realised I could be bought so cheaply :o

Hypevosa
11th Mar 2010, 17:41
you are a real person and not some mad hallucination sent by this bug to drive me insane with inane drivel are you ?

it's getting really difficult to be sure at the moment

Actually Cheater_1 could be related to some kind of game for the forums where the devs slowly leak information, kinda like how in the Halo forums on bungie there was an anonymous poster, I think it was Mendicant Bias or something like that? Probably not, but who knows?

esme
11th Mar 2010, 17:52
Actually Cheater_1 could be related to some kind of game for the forums where the devs slowly leak information, kinda like how in the Halo forums on bungie there was an anonymous poster, I think it was Mendicant Bias or something like that? Probably not, but who knows?

if the devs do leak information in this manner, I hope they would develop a more reasonable character for delivery, it wouldn't bode well for the game if they thought this particular style of delivery was an appropriate one for the project

"we want to leak information anonymously to the forums, what sort of persona should we use ?

'a' - someone no one will listen to or treat seriously
'b' - someone everyone will listen to and treat seriously

ok thats unanimous, 'a' it is then"

I can't see it myself

Hypevosa
11th Mar 2010, 18:32
Well you can't deny that people are indeed reading what he writes, at least for now. I agree it's not a good long term approach.

Loup
11th Mar 2010, 18:45
Actually Cheater_1 could be related to some kind of game for the forums where the devs slowly leak information, kinda like how in the Halo forums on bungie there was an anonymous poster, I think it was Mendicant Bias or something like that? Probably not, but who knows?

If you check the google searches on him I don't think that there is a dev impersonating him.

cheater_1
12th Mar 2010, 00:03
Take it from the HORSE'S mouth. I am no mole.

jtr7
12th Mar 2010, 01:01
Well you can't deny that people are indeed reading what he writes, at least for now. I agree it's not a good long term approach.

I don't. Heh heh. Although I do respond to certain pull-quotes here and there.

esme
12th Mar 2010, 12:28
Well you can't deny that people are indeed reading what he writes, at least for now. I agree it's not a good long term approach.

I'm not, I put him on ignore after reading his rant about Thief corrupting people, I can't even see his posts

Teasza
12th Mar 2010, 12:50
I'm not, I put him on ignore after reading his rant about Thief corrupting people, I can't even see his posts

I admit though, his suggestion of making a game where Garrett has to teach a class of preschoolers was unexpected gold. I mean, I would pay good money to watch that.

esme
12th Mar 2010, 12:54
but how much dross did you have to pan through to find that speck of gold ?

Jace_Auditore
20th Jun 2010, 14:38
I was thinking that now that Garret is the One True Keeper,hes not a thief anymore.However,the game is called "Thief"4,so I think that a precuel would be the best option,something between The Dark Project and The Metal Age,or The Metal Age and Deadly Shadows,so we could still play with the "Garret Thief" that we all know and love.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/raspwils/1Thief2cover2.jpg
http://siliconsasquatch.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/thief_the_dark_project_boxcover.jpg
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080711212337/thief/images/7/7a/Final_cutscene_20.jpg

Platinumoxicity
20th Jun 2010, 16:30
I think you have totally misunderstood the whole thing.

Garrett actually was the True Keeper the whole time all the way from when he joined the keepers. That's the reason why he was always in the prophecies and ended up saving the City 3 times. Why is that so hard to understand? When he fulfilled the last prophecy and destroyed the glyphs and everything that the Keepers stood for, his job as the True Keeper was done. The idea of the "True Keeper" was that the Keeper order was in fact corrupt, and the only way to be a true keeper was to not stand idly by, but to actually change things. Garrett got rid of that corrupt system, just like it had said in the prophecies. Now he's just a thief with a wild past and an open future.

Jace_Auditore
20th Jun 2010, 17:30
I think you have totally misunderstood the whole thing.

Garrett actually was the True Keeper the whole time all the way from when he joined the keepers. That's the reason why he was always in the prophecies and ended up saving the City 3 times. Why is that so hard to understand? When he fulfilled the last prophecy and destroyed the glyphs and everything that the Keepers stood for, his job as the True Keeper was done. The idea of the "True Keeper" was that the Keeper order was in fact corrupt, and the only way to be a true keeper was to not stand idly by, but to actually change things. Garrett got rid of that corrupt system, just like it had said in the prophecies. Now he's just a thief with a wild past and an open future.
I didn´t thought it that way.Well if Garret its still a Master Thief(and the main playable character),i gues I cant complain!!!!
But I dont know why I still want thief 4 to be a prequel,like If the end of Deadly Shadows was actually"The End",and not a stupid cliffhanger..

Platinumoxicity
20th Jun 2010, 22:07
But I dont know why I still want thief 4 to be a prequel,like If the end of Deadly Shadows was actually"The End",and not a stupid cliffhanger..

Yes, it was "the end" of a big story (The story of the keepers) spanning 3 games. Thief 4 is a beginning of a new story, and Garrett is far from finished with us. He knows now that his life is no longer written in a book in advance, and every choice he makes is his own. He always wanted to be left alone, but something big always appeared between him and his money. Now anything is possible.

jtr7
20th Jun 2010, 22:15
Here ya go:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88704

Vae
20th Jun 2010, 22:37
Prepare for a thread merge...

Sharazito
16th Sep 2010, 22:02
Making a prequel with Garrett is not very smart.. Maybe with a diferent character.. If not just continue the story..

Rieknor
17th Sep 2010, 00:14
I think you have totally misunderstood the whole thing.

Garrett actually was the True Keeper the whole time all the way from when he joined the keepers. That's the reason why he was always in the prophecies and ended up saving the City 3 times. Why is that so hard to understand? When he fulfilled the last prophecy and destroyed the glyphs and everything that the Keepers stood for, his job as the True Keeper was done. The idea of the "True Keeper" was that the Keeper order was in fact corrupt, and the only way to be a true keeper was to not stand idly by, but to actually change things. Garrett got rid of that corrupt system, just like it had said in the prophecies. Now he's just a thief with a wild past and an open future.

And you forgot to say...The Garret that we all know, always will do thiefy things, and being or not a Keeper will never change any of that.
Without the loot of a fancy mansion, or a Hammerite complex, how will he subsist? The Keepers never pay as much as being a thief.(I think he said that once in TDS)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
17th Sep 2010, 08:48
Prepare for a thread merge...

... Hold on tight now. :flowers:

wolfenstein
4th May 2011, 22:34
MAJOR SPOILERS BELOW
.

2. His initiation with the Keepers, something often referred to but never expanded on. Why did he leave them "out of the greater folly of anger"? What happened between them to end his training so catastrophically? What exactly did they disagree about? There's also Artemus' relationship with Garrett, which has been involved in all three games to date, but we're never told how it evolved or why Artemus seems more concerned than any of the other Keepers in following the career of his once-protege. I'm not suggesting we actually play through Garrett's stay with the Keepers in-game - after all, we need to keep a bit of mystery, and that would strentch the timeline out too far - but the following plot could centre heavily on why he left them, giving us some great tidbits of backstory along the way.


Thoughts? Verdicts? Suggestions?

From replaying the games recently, and with more attention paid to the story lines.

I think Garrett left the keepers because for them the universe is deterministic and set and Garrett seems fundamentally at odds with this. Stating that he can make his own future and doesn't need them (the keepers)

Im not sure if interpreted that correctly but its just a guess based on the dialogues between the keepers and Garrett.

I think Garrett wants to believe that not everything is pre determined and he is not living his life according to some Keeper Prediction.

Maybe I'm placing too much on a small section of conversation and adding heavily from my interest in the current debates going on in Physics over the Nature of reality and the Measurement Problem (whether we create the result of the observation merely by observing it)

But yeah ... thats my thought on the subject you mentioned :)



I think you have totally misunderstood the whole thing.

Garrett actually was the True Keeper the whole time all the way from when he joined the keepers. That's the reason why he was always in the prophecies and ended up saving the City 3 times. Why is that so hard to understand? When he fulfilled the last prophecy and destroyed the glyphs and everything that the Keepers stood for, his job as the True Keeper was done. The idea of the "True Keeper" was that the Keeper order was in fact corrupt, and the only way to be a true keeper was to not stand idly by, but to actually change things. Garrett got rid of that corrupt system, just like it had said in the prophecies. Now he's just a thief with a wild past and an open future.

+1 I actually really like this interpretation. Well said.

cofiking
5th May 2011, 09:46
Damn it! the prequel sounds good but the evolution of the game with a entirely different story sounds good too! what to do...hmm imagine if they made two stories in one game. A prequel with garrets memories and the future when he is old and is doing who knows what. This crossed my mind because there are movies and books written which have these time shifting methods in them, and i don't recall any game that did this type of thing.

jtr7
5th May 2011, 10:53
If a sequel can jump ahead long after all the ex-Keepers have died off, and the next couple of generations have passed as well, then I'd be fine with that as the starting point, as it would start off on a reasonable canonical point while allowing a return of Glyphs and a need for Balance, and not place Garrett in a position of any kind, let alone one that breaks with character or his purpose across the trilogy.

Platinumoxicity
5th May 2011, 10:59
I think Garrett left the keepers because for them the universe is deterministic and set and Garrett seems fundamentally at odds with this. Stating that he can make his own future and doesn't need them (the keepers)

Im not sure if interpreted that correctly but its just a guess based on the dialogues between the keepers and Garrett.

I think Garrett wants to believe that not everything is pre determined and he is not living his life according to some Keeper Prediction.


Exactly. You can actually see this in the story. Garrett wanted to disbelieve in the prophecy nonsense so strongly that he actually set it aside from his mind. When players played TDP, nothing in the story indicated that the keepers were predicting the future, and Garrett in his denial did not know. The player knows what Garrett knows. In TMA the keepers tried to tell Garrett how things were and I think they did not entirely understand what was going through Garrett's mind, and only in the very end he was convinced. Actually he did not find out anything new, just something that was already in his head but was forgotten on purpose.

Everything is predetermined. Circumstances produce events. Events produce perception, and perception of events and circumstances produces decisions and actions. And if that decision is to believe that everything is not predetermined, and the action is to attempt to exercise "free will" by doing something useless and random, it's still not free will. Circumstances produced a chain of events that led you to want to do random actions to prove yourself something that you want to think is true. (All of this is thought of in the setting of Thief, not real world. In our universe there is quantum mechanics that allows the electrochemical actions in our brain chemistry to make decisions)

But Garrett's status as the true keeper was never known until the end of TDS, because Gamall had stolen and hidden/destroyed all the books about that matter. If the keepers would have known all that,they wouldn't have allowed Garrett to leave them. And ironically, Gamall's plans would never have been discovered.

Sunlenko
5th May 2011, 11:12
My guess is that we're looking at a Garret coming out of retirement kinda thing. like the city has gone on for a few years and descended back into a really dark place and people, while maybe having heard of the legend of "garret the guy who took care of the old grey lady", he remains mostly a legend... so we could be looking at some townsfolk saying things like "oh my, it's true, i've seen the master theif!" something like that... i dunno.
I like this idea a lot, and then you could also end with training that little girl.
I'd like that little girl to play a important role, so he could have someone to care about, in the same way he cares about Victoria at the end in T2.

Sunlenko
5th May 2011, 11:34
In the Thief games, Garrett was cynical and selfish. There were things much bigger than himself going on around him, but he wanted no part of them, desperately trying to stay wrapped up in his own petty self-centered little world, and only getting dragged into things against his will. He was hardly an exemplary character, but he was a very interesting and fun character, and that's what made the games.

At the end of Thief 3, Garrett finally grows up and takes up the mantle of responsibility that comes with his power. He finally gets beyond himself, and sees the gravity and importance of the rest of the world. This is profound ending, because it represents a fundamental shift in one of the most defining aspects of Garrett's personality: his self-centeredness.
True, he grew over his selfishness, but that doesn't mean he lost it, he still retaines it. a similar thing can be seen at the end of T1, where he could have said no at killing the Trickster. You would say that's because he otherwhise get killed anbd stuff, but that's also a reason at T3 why he activated the final glyph. The same thing happens at T2: he killes Karras to avenge Victoria and save the city (selfishness?), but also to save himself from the rust gas. i think a sequel would work, becuase he could stay himself

jtr7
5th May 2011, 11:45
Again, this need to have a relationship...

Platinumoxicity
5th May 2011, 11:49
I like this idea a lot, and then you could also end with training that little girl.
I'd like that little girl to play a important role, so he could have someone to care about, in the same way he cares about Victoria at the end in T2.

I don't see any reason why Garrett would go through the trouble of taking an apprentice of some sort. Think about it. What could anyone possibly accomplish by "passing on their skills to the next generation"? Garrett strives for getting enough wealth so that he doesn't need to struggle when he's too old to go about thieving. After his retirement nothing matters. Everything that happens in the world after one perishes is irrelevant, and being concerned about it is insane. Especially in Garrett's case because he's a bad man with a dangerous life.

He's not an evil man though. He's not evil enough to risk passing on his responsibilities to an innocent child, like what the keepers did to him. He's different from the keepers, and always does the opposite of what the keepers would have done. So instead of taking a child under his wing and forcing the child to endure all the hardships he has, he doesn't. Because it's wrong. Reminds me of childhood religious indoctrination. It's like giving a child an invisible death sentence. It's like teaching someone that pain is not pain so that they wouldn't mind being tortured. People seem to have no idea how susceptible a young mind is.

Thief 2X Shadows of the Metal Age is a good story about indoctrination and brainwash of an innocent by someone who is a bad influence. Zaya's pain was exploited and she was taught to think that the bad things she did were for a greater good, and she never questioned it until it was too late.

cl0ck83
5th May 2011, 14:10
Well why not start telling the story of Artemus(Arty) how he became a Keeper.
he was old when found garret in the streets.

Perhaps he was like Garret, But found a prophecy that states that he will be the master of a young man who will give balance to the order.

Sorry for my English.

Maethius
5th May 2011, 15:28
I don't see any reason why Garrett would go through the trouble of taking an apprentice of some sort. Think about it. What could anyone possibly accomplish by "passing on their skills to the next generation"? Garrett strives for getting enough wealth so that he doesn't need to struggle when he's too old to go about thieving. After his retirement nothing matters. Everything that happens in the world after one perishes is irrelevant, and being concerned about it is insane. Especially in Garrett's case because he's a bad man with a dangerous life.

Interesting.... you did play through TDS, right? Is there any doubt whatsoever at the end that he's taking on the girl as an apprentice in the exact manner he was introduced to the keepers? Or that, through all the games he's had a change of heart and finally accepted the Keeper's Mark because he's seen the value of balance? Part of the heart of the entire series is really the redemption of Garrett. In fact, that's what makes the games so excellent as a story... the protagonist stays himself yet changes himself. He grows and matures.

Why take on an apprentice? Simple... the Keepers were messed up, and Garret now has an opportunity to remake them using all he's learned. He sees the need for them, but not in the image of what they had become.

Platinumoxicity
5th May 2011, 16:31
Interesting.... you did play through TDS, right? Is there any doubt whatsoever at the end that he's taking on the girl as an apprentice in the exact manner he was introduced to the keepers?

Yes there is. You did play through TDS, right?

ChristheThief
5th May 2011, 16:41
No!

No prequel.

Tryst
5th May 2011, 17:04
Yes there is. You did play through TDS, right?

True, have to agree with you. All he said was she had a talent because it wasn't easy to see a keeper, especially one who did not wish to be seen.

However, one can argue that it was simply conveying a message. Now the glyphs were gone, the power that the keepers once had to remain invisible in plain sight was gone also since this power stemmed from the glyphs. That would make the girl just an ordinary waif with no talent at all and Garrett was simply mistaken about her talent because he was so used to the passive power of invisibility that he momentarily forgot that the glyphs were what made it possible.

jtr7
5th May 2011, 23:11
Not only that, the Keepers acted according to the Glyph Prohecies, now gone, as well as not having an Interpreter or Translator who loses lifeforce just to pull the trick off, which doesn't even require eyes to see.

wolfenstein
6th May 2011, 00:24
OK i need to dissect this carefully


I don't see any reason why Garrett would go through the trouble of taking an apprentice of some sort. Think about it. What could anyone possibly accomplish by "passing on their skills to the next generation"?

Well, given that Garrett left the Keepers out of the folly of anger, it means the keepers angered Garrett in some way, maybe he wants to take on an apprentice because he feels like he has something to teach and the keepers are no longer around for him to rejoin to bestow his knowledge.

My honest opinion of the ending of TDS is that Garrett sees himself in that girls shoes and wants to right the wrongs he feels he suffered at the hands of the keepers. He obviously distrusts the keepers and maybe he felt her skill of perception may lead her into the hands of the keepers or worse.


Garrett strives for getting enough wealth so that he doesn't need to struggle when he's too old to go about thieving. After his retirement nothing matters. Everything that happens in the world after one perishes is irrelevant, and being concerned about it is insane. Especially in Garrett's case because he's a bad man with a dangerous life.

I genuinely dont think Garrett is a "bad" person. I think he's a person who has had to look out for himself and learnt that thieving is a way to survive if you're alone on the streets as a child.

Nature vs Nurture, im sure he could've been an average person if he had been raised like every one else, he wasnt and as such he had a set of choices laid in front of him. Starve on the streets or be a pick pocket. One thing leads to another and he meets the keepers who do something to cause Garrett to distrust them, feeling betrayed some how, he returns to the only life he knew before this betrayal. The life of a thief. Except now he is an awesomely skilled thief.


He's not an evil man though. He's not evil enough to risk passing on his responsibilities to an innocent child, like what the keepers did to him. He's different from the keepers, and always does the opposite of what the keepers would have done. So instead of taking a child under his wing and forcing the child to endure all the hardships he has, he doesn't. Because it's wrong. Reminds me of childhood religious indoctrination. It's like giving a child an invisible death sentence. It's like teaching someone that pain is not pain so that they wouldn't mind being tortured. People seem to have no idea how susceptible a young mind is.

I think you're right to say he isnt evil , since the term evil is subjective based on societies views of moral right and wrongs.

But whilst Garrett is "different" to the Keepers, he was a Keeper and ultimately fulfilled the keepers prophesies against his own conscious wishes. I think taking on some one as an apprentice need not be just some evil enterprise of creating a villain, with out sounding patronising he could teach her other things then just thieving (like the saying goes "to catch a thief you have to think like a thief") and we really dont know what if any training he might provide this perceptive street urchin.


Thief 2X Shadows of the Metal Age is a good story about indoctrination and brainwash of an innocent by someone who is a bad influence. Zaya's pain was exploited and she was taught to think that the bad things she did were for a greater good, and she never questioned it until it was too late.

No comment.


Interesting.... you did play through TDS, right? Is there any doubt whatsoever at the end that he's taking on the girl as an apprentice in the exact manner he was introduced to the keepers? Or that, through all the games he's had a change of heart and finally accepted the Keeper's Mark because he's seen the value of balance? Part of the heart of the entire series is really the redemption of Garrett. In fact, that's what makes the games so excellent as a story... the protagonist stays himself yet changes himself. He grows and matures.

Why take on an apprentice? Simple... the Keepers were messed up, and Garret now has an opportunity to remake them using all he's learned. He sees the need for them, but not in the image of what they had become.

I agree with some of what you said, but other parts im not so sure on.

The ending of TDS clearly introduces us to a new character, but leaves the door open for literally ANY scenario. aside from the apprentice story line, she could just be an element in a wider story and an associate of Garrett. Who knows?

I know we all dream of a better future for our beloved Garrett and hope he could some how go from hated outcast to redeemed hero (which he is) but I doubt Garrett would remake any keeper type clan if not simply for the fact that the Keepers have ALWAYS tried to "stay out" of whats happening, In every game the keepers never took any REAL steps at direct intervention, they always instigated events by disclosing information to 3rd parties and letting them set their agenda for them.
Then sitting back and saying "i told you so".

let me know what you think though :D

Hamadriyad
6th May 2011, 07:34
True, have to agree with you. All he said was she had a talent because it wasn't easy to see a keeper, especially one who did not wish to be seen.

However, one can argue that it was simply conveying a message. Now the glyphs were gone, the power that the keepers once had to remain invisible in plain sight was gone also since this power stemmed from the glyphs. That would make the girl just an ordinary waif with no talent at all and Garrett was simply mistaken about her talent because he was so used to the passive power of invisibility that he momentarily forgot that the glyphs were what made it possible.
I don't think he forgot that. He doesn't that glyph power from the beginning after all, he never used glyphs. -except TDS-
But he has talent and Keeper training, so he is the master of stealth, a real master unlike Keepers, he can be invisible without magic. -not literally of course- So, he was just referring that I think, and joking around.

jtr7
6th May 2011, 09:28
And there's nothing simple about Garrett the loner taking on an apprentice, when he's never ever expressed any desire along a similar line, nor shown a single character trait required for the many tasks to do so. Let Garrett remain Garrett and let's see him now that there are no Keepers and Glyphs guiding, adjusting, thrusting him along a predestined path, and watch the man who always wanted to "just" be a master thief without any Keeperisms or Glyphy things dogging him, finally get what he thinks he's always wanted, and come to appreciate, too late, the good side of the Keeper Order.

cofiking
6th May 2011, 09:37
what if Garrett makes a new keeper sect? with him in charge? nah

jtr7
6th May 2011, 12:26
He has nothing to keep any sort of balance. There are no Glyphs. No Glyphs means no Glyph Prophecies. No Glyphs means no Interpreter or Translator. No Glyphs means no knowledge of who, what, when, where, or how the The City will be threatened or saved. No secret Compound, no books, no Historica Propheticus, no secret network of passages, no creation of Talismans and Keeper Keys to seal off threats that cannot be destroyed, no failsafes to set up for events to come centuries later, and other Glyph-made or -required tools for keeping the Balance. Garrett cannot live long enough to see anything resembling a Keeper Order. The Glyphs are gone "forever". No Glyphs = no Keepers.

ToMegaTherion
6th May 2011, 13:06
Overly simplistic thinking, surely. Lack of prophecies doesn't negate the principles of the Keepers. There may be no balance with a capital B but the concept of balance still makes sense. Not that it really matters because there's no reason to think Garrett actually cares about this concept at all (the interpretation that he was helping the Keepers in Deadly Shadows just to get to the bottom of whatever tomfoolery was causing his life to be controlled is the most appealing to me). Further, they're making a Thief game, so Garrett will be a thief, not a keeper. One fundamental concept of Thief that we can probably all agree on is that the main character should be a thief.

Platinumoxicity
6th May 2011, 13:24
One fundamental concept of Thief that we can probably all agree on is that the main character should be a thief.

Most, but not all it seems. There are those who think back at the series and can't remember anything else than the last 30 seconds of the TDS outro.

Maethius
6th May 2011, 15:12
Yes there is. You did play through TDS, right?

Yep, and I just watched the vid through again. The point made in virtually copying the intro scene from the first game is an indication that a new story is about to begin in a virtually identical manner... fundamental ironic storytelling 101. Otherwise there was no point whatsoever in taking the effort to duplicate the scene... it would have been a perfect accident.

After all, the whole point of that video is to show (in order):

1) Glyphs lose their power (note the Keepers still exist)
2) The Keepers, as they have become, cease to exist
3) The Hammers exist as is, stuck in their ways (Thief world consistency kept)
4) The Pagans exist as is, stuck in their ways (Thief world consistency kept)
4) Garret mirrors the role of his mentor, indicating his conversion into a mentor (acceptance of the True Keeper mantel)

With all of that, it would seem the real change to follow in the world would be Garrett's restructuring of what the Keepers are meant to be, bringing up the Order in the image of who he has become through his experiences. He has seen more of all aspects of every aspect of the world of The City, and is the perfect one to begin the Keepers anew.

Platinumoxicity
6th May 2011, 16:27
Yep, and I just watched the vid through again. The point made in virtually copying the intro scene from the first game is an indication that a new story is about to begin in a virtually identical manner... fundamental ironic storytelling 101. Otherwise there was no point whatsoever in taking the effort to duplicate the scene... it would have been a perfect accident.

As has been said many times, the scene isn't "duplicated" in TDS like you say. It has been left incomplete on purpose so that it doesn't impose any strict continuity from that point forward. Remember, in TDP the keeper gave Garrett a choice, and Garrett chose "yes". That part was never seen in the TDS outro. So the end doesn't force a specific continuity. The child could just as well choose "no" if Garrett were to even ask the question, which BTW he doesn't do in the video. It's entirely possible that Garrett just lectures the kid that stealing is wrong and tells the kid to get lost.

And you're right. There might have been no point to add that part in the end cutscene. And yes, it's very clear that the last 30 seconds were added as an afterthought. The game could well have ended in the part where Garrett sits alone looking at the sunrise. Maybe there was too little human interaction in that version of the end, since in T1 and T2 there was always Garrett and Artemus having a conversation, and in the end of TDS Artemus wasn't available anymore.

Vae
6th May 2011, 18:45
Yep, and I just watched the vid through again. The point made in virtually copying the intro scene from the first game is an indication that a new story is about to begin in a virtually identical manner... fundamental ironic storytelling 101. Otherwise there was no point whatsoever in taking the effort to duplicate the scene...

Garrett wasn't hiding, and he was lit up by a street lamp...the kid was nothing special.

The point of the scene with Sally, was to show how far Garrett had come in his life...she was just a device that was used for Garrett to reflect on his own personal story. A child trying to steal from him at that point in time, and saying, "please sir, I'm hungry"...simply triggered the memory of his youth, and the words that were once spoken to him. He becomes aware of this while speaking back the words, and smiles at the realization of how he'd come full circle in his life. She was just used as a tool to fulfill this purpose...nothing more.

jtr7
7th May 2011, 01:06
There is no asking of her name, no addressing her by her gender, no real expression of being impressed, no invitation to another way of life, no confidence in his station, no invisibility in the light of the setting sun (Garrett never could hide in light without potions, while Keepers could disappear in any light levels without them), and Garrett wasn't practically yanked up off the ground by his wrist when he was caught. There is no duplication or identical manner in either delivery or character, nor were the most important words ever said to her. Garrett doesn't speak assertively as much as he echoes some phrasings in a glazed-over distant manner. Garrett is still Garrett, and the most important thing he said in the final cutscene was how he was still anti-Glyphs, and therefore, all they came with.

Fatherwoodsie
7th May 2011, 05:54
i dont know about the idea of a prequel.

the devs dont have to come up with a story that requires to be stretched out for sequels to come....they can just make a specific story for each individual game that is yet to come out, they dont necessarily need to "follow each other"

tinetone
8th Aug 2011, 18:07
When players played TDP, nothing in the story indicated that the keepers were predicting the future,

But Garrett's status as the true keeper was never known until the end of TDS,
But what if story was never ment to be a trilogy? And only a commercial success of T1 lead to T2 and T3?

PS: Call me heretic but I`m sick of Garrett saving the world/the City over and over again. I think we need something new.

dsung
8th Aug 2011, 18:13
But what if story was never ment to be a trilogy? And only a commercial success of T1 lead to T2 and T3?

The Metal Age were named at the end of TDP. TDS were teased with the last dialog "And there is more? - Yes. - Tell me."

Thief was a trilogy. From the beginning. Garrett's story is told.

Vae
8th Aug 2011, 20:08
How has Garrett's story been told? Why would Garrett's career be over at 30 years old?...:confused:

The story of the Keepers is over, not Garrett's story...He's finally come into his own as a master thief, with a long road of mystery yet to unfold.

DarkDagger
8th Aug 2011, 22:22
I agree with you that Garrett isn't out of the picture, but don't count the Keepers out :)

Platinumoxicity
8th Aug 2011, 22:24
But what if story was never ment to be a trilogy? And only a commercial success of T1 lead to T2 and T3?


That's probably exactly what happened with Thief 2. Remember, LGS used to make flight simulators that nobody bought. Thief was an experiment that worked. The last line indicating this mysterious "metal age" was there to add to the possible continuity.



PS: Call me heretic but I`m sick of Garrett saving the world/the City over and over again. I think we need something new.

I don't mind that either. It's unfair when the theme of the first game in the series is saving the world, because that implies that the rest have to have that theme too. Taming it down afterwards somehow makes less sense than reving it up.

One thing that supports this is that Garrett's destiny has been fulfilled, and there are no more prophecies of the apocalypse. For 2 reasons. Firstly because Garrett made them stop, and secondly because there isn't going to be a global threat for Garrett to deal. Prophecy is weird that way. Maybe even if Garrett would try to help the world in Thief 4, the world wouldn't let him because it's not his destiny. Garrett never wanted any of that burden but now it could be that somehow he's gotten used to it and can't see why nothing he does can accomplish anything. Finally he would get it, when a new unexpected savior, or saviors, even the entire populace itself would step in to save the day. In addition to him getting his lifelong wish of being left alone by the keepers, he would find justification for his cynicism in the fact that nothing and nobody really matters and everything any one man does is usually pointless.

xDarknessFallsx
8th Aug 2011, 23:09
I hope they don't start T4 by passing the torch to someone other than Garrett, and hope they don't end T4 with a passing of the torch. No torch passing needed or desired here. And if T4 fails like some might say T3 did, I don't want to feel locked into such a strong deviation in the foundation of what makes Thief what it is by poor decisions. We are almost locked into Sally thanks to T3. Just imagine if Garrett had also died in T3. I have yet to feel a true sequel to T1/T2 has been made and don't want the rug ripped out from under me before I've had at least another couple games of true Thief. If i had my druthers, Garrett would never go away :). But then again, I believe imagination and creativity could devise many fun stories and situations that involve our master thief; some can't see the possibilities.

jtr7
9th Aug 2011, 01:02
Garrett doesn't have to save the world this time, but that's exactly what he would be doing if he were a still a Keeper. Thankfully, they wrote it so that's all over, but that doesn't mean all the powers aren't struggling for control and needing to get slapped down and humbled. Garrett helped to humble the uppity members of the Thieves' Guild, the City Watch, the Wardens, the Nobility, the Opera House usurpers, and the brothels, too, and other various aggressive persons and groups on his way to saving The City, before he knew he was even that ultimate path. People cross him, he shows them up. He puts himself in situations where he's likely to be crossed, and have a reason to take the piss. Since the last three games have been about bringing Balance to the Factions, and now they are Balanced, I'd like to see them stay Balanced for the rest of Garrett's life, while the uppity members of the social and antisocial strata get slapped down.

This leaves one major group: The Hand Brotherhood of elementalist mages. They were not humbled, and actually hadn't gotten uppity but for Azaran the Cruel, and the corrupt splinter group of his followers were never dealt with, so they are ripe for bringing to the fore, and The City sure could use some relief from all the necromantic nodes disrupting a complete life/death cycle. The chapters dealing with the Baron and his war with Blackbrook were never written out for us, and between the Barony, the Necromancers, and how the Balanced Factions are in a strong position to fill the remaining power vacuum and stabilise The City, there's a good story there, without Garrett compromising his core nature as he further matures.

In T4, I'd like to see the Balanced Factions self-sustain The City and keep it Balanced between themselves, because they themselves are Balanced and keeping their own internal interests, not overruning each others', and when the outside forces make a move against The City, Garrett unwittingly helps the Factions do their part for themselves and together create and impenetrable fortification of society as a whole just by being who they are at their best.

xAcerbusx
9th Aug 2011, 01:14
Garrett doesn't have to save the world this time, but that's exactly what he would be doing if he were a still a Keeper. Thankfully, they wrote it so that's all over, that doesn't mean all the powers aren't struggling for control and needing to get slpaaed down and humbled. Garrett helped humble uppity members of the Thieves' Guild, the City Watch, the Wardens, the Nobility, the Opera House usurpers, the brothels, and various persons and groups on his way to saving The City. Since the last three games have been about bringing Balance to the Factions, and now they are Balanced, I'd like to see them stay Balanced for the rest of Garrett's life, while the uppity members of the social and antisocial strata get slapped down.

Yeah, I liken it to Batman.

Yes, Batman has saved the world... countless times. But that doesn't mean a story about him simply solving a series of murders is any less engaging. In fact, those types of stories are some of the best-selling Batman comics ever written.

I'd like to see the criminal underworld of the City fall out of balance this time. It feels like there's a lot more story to be told with regard to the Wardens, and their struggles with the greater political and legal infrastructure of the City. Yes, it would be on a smaller scale than "Oops! Time to save the world!" but it would play to some of series' greatest strengths: Environment, Theft, and Subterfuge.

DarkDagger
9th Aug 2011, 10:19
I agree with you people, but remember what The Eye said. It was "We have much in common, little man. We are both marked...destined always to be part of history...never just observers." I don't think that means for Garrett to just steal and mind his own business. Still you can argue that he has already accomplished great things. I don't know the right answer, and thats the great thing about Thief.

tinetone
9th Aug 2011, 18:15
Garrett doesn't have to save the world this time,
I think saving the world three times and robbing every mayor bank/museum/manison is the peak od his career. If you want it to progres he has to save the world again from even greater danger and that makes it boring. If he doesnt save the world it just makes his career decline and boring again.
Prequel would save this problem.

Vae
9th Aug 2011, 18:28
There won't be a prequel...and the protagonist for T4 will have an epic story.

jtr7
9th Aug 2011, 19:22
I think saving the world three times and robbing every mayor bank/museum/manison is the peak od his career. If you want it to progres he has to save the world again from even greater danger and that makes it boring. If he doesnt save the world it just makes his career decline and boring again.
Prequel would save this problem.

Uh, that wasn't Garrett's idea of a career. Being nagged by the Keepers and their Glyph warnings, and being forced into responsibility for The City wasn't his idea, ever. He wants to be a thief and he keeps getting caught up in huge historical events that threaten his own interests. I don't want him to keep saving The City. :scratch:

A prequel creates a ton of story and game problems.


We haven't seen the majority of The City, so I strongly disagree he's robbed every building. In TMA alone, 30 mansions had Masked Servants, and we don't see 30 mansions in the whole trilogy.

Platinumoxicity
9th Aug 2011, 20:19
I think saving the world three times and robbing every mayor bank/museum/manison is the peak od his career. If you want it to progres he has to save the world again from even greater danger and that makes it boring. If he doesnt save the world it just makes his career decline and boring again.
Prequel would save this problem.

That is just an illusion. A less epic story isn't necessarily worse if it comes after. Especially since the established continuity supports the notion that Garrett's job as the savior is finished. The most important thing now is that even if Garrett would have the power to help, he doesn't have to. And after all those times of being dragged into it, Garrett is going to go out of his way, to not have to. He could finally realize that without the keepers, none of those things he prevented could have had a chance of happening in the first place, and maybe by staying out of the way the world wants to go, he might actually be doing it a favor. Now that there is the balance he was destined to create, there's no longer a guarantee that what he does doesn't set the balance off again.

jtr7
9th Aug 2011, 20:40
Now things can get really bad for Garrett himself. He has no Keepers reading Glyph warnings to save him this time, and his best Keeper friend is dead, and the woman who kept him safe from the wrath of Keepers who don't like him is dead. The threats he now faces are not written in Keeper prophecies. Basically, he has less help and less people pulling strings for him behind-the-scenes and cutting him free from his entanglements. What's coming could be the worst time of his personal life, and The City is probably not grateful enough to save him. It's been a long time since Garrett was truly scared and staring actual death in the face.

Hamadriyad
9th Aug 2011, 20:55
Now things can get really bad for Garrett himself. He has no Keepers reading Glyph warnings to save him this time, and his best Keeper friend is dead, and the woman who kept him safe from the wrath of Keepers who don't like him is dead. The threats he now faces are not written in Keeper prophecies. Basically, he has less help and less people pulling strings for him behind-the-scenes and cutting him free from his entanglements. What's coming could be the worst time of his personal life, and The City is probably not grateful enough to save him. It's been a long time since Garrett was truly scared and staring actual death in the face.
:thumb:
Exactly. Finally we can see something really different from older titles. Exciting, isn't it? A prequel would be a cheap solution to continue the series, a really boring way, indeed.
I don't think EM will make a prequel anyway.

jtr7
9th Aug 2011, 23:59
I'd like the writing to get more serious than that and move laterally with what is, not in new onion layers. I'd like it to take what's already there into account first, before going yet another typical route of cheap and easy milking. Even though my idea is not original, it doesn't ignore anything established, and it actually challenges the writer to work on a more educated level, even if it can still get watered down for the middle school market.


Anyway, there's no point in working out details that'll never be used, but the potential for a different game that isn't a departure, and embraces the established nature, without regurgitating it, and tying up several loose ends now that the main theme of the trilogy is wrapped up, and The City is now set upon a Balanced path, while the darkness is still restless and Garrett thinks he's free to thieve without Keepers and Keeper Prophecy dogging him, it's high time he discovered the grass isn't greener, but can be worse, even if The City as a whole remains safer than it's been for nearly 60 years, decades before he was born. There is still great pain and suffering and hidden atrocity a thief may discover simply for not supposing to be there to see it, and not seen witnessing it or the aftermath.

Necromancy still plagues The City, regardless of the Factions, and also because of the Factions, depending on specific actions taken against people in specific locales. Who better to promise the Barony and Nobility an end or significant reduction of the necromantic scourge none living have ever known was possible, than the Necromancers? There is corruption aplenty and big promises with a semi-hidden agenda, all right there for the fiction to almost write itself. A genuine clean-up of The City's undead, the Barony turning a blind-eye to the hidden non-monetary price the Necromancers ask for in return, which is also not a threat to The City overall, and with no saving the world by anyone necessary, and a potential tie-in with underhanded revenge by Blackbrook officials or hired mercenaries from ruined Great Families in Blackbrook, and the insular and aloof Hand Mages holding the key to undoing the Necromancers' horrific plans. Not that this matters at the end of the day.

xAcerbusx
10th Aug 2011, 02:05
I don't think EM will make a prequel anyway.

I'm still not so sure about that. It's the easy way out. Making a prequel, you can deftly side-step the pitfall of being compared to previous entries in the series, which is why it's such a huge trend in both gaming and films. With quality of both forms of media falling rapidly, it's an easier sell to simply say "Well, it may not be like the other entries... but it's an all-new series!"

In my mind, the single biggest question yet to be answered is whether or not EM will have the courage to let this game be a proper sequel that stands on its own two feet, or if they'll take the low road into Prequel Town.

tinetone
10th Aug 2011, 08:48
:thumb:
Exactly. Finally we can see something really different from older titles. Exciting, isn't it? A prequel would be a cheap solution to continue the series, a really boring way, indeed.
I don't think EM will make a prequel anyway.
Prequel or sequel can be both equally cheap solution.

Hamadriyad
10th Aug 2011, 09:41
Prequel or sequel can be both equally cheap solution.
No. Making a sequel is far harder than making a prequel. At least for Thief. Keepers and prophicies are gone now. They were very important in older titles you know. Now, they have to make a decent game, write a good story without these powerful weapons. They have to set Garrett free, and they don't have an example front of them.
In case of a prequel, well, it is very easy.Not just easy, boring too. Keepers and prophicies again. We have enough already.
And before Keepers, Garrett was not a master thief, just talented. We want to see master thief, don't we?
Of course a sequel may be bad and cheap, but this is because making a sequel is the hard thing to do.

tinetone
10th Aug 2011, 11:42
If it is harder to make a seqel there is more probability it will be bad one.
Besides why prophecies again? Just becouse there are later it doesnt mean we have to hear them now.
There could be some keeper here and there but we dont need a lot of them. And there could be a lot about backgrounds of some people.