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View Full Version : MECHANISTS - a comeback and , why not , a new FACTION...



Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 16:41
I would like to see a "come-back" of the MECHANICISTS in this game.I liked them very much in the second Thief game. Also other classic factions, the Hammerites, the Pagans and the Keepers.I liked how the Keepers were implemented in last Thief game (aka Thief III). I hope they'll keep that barometer of relationship between Garrets and factions.I'd like to hear more dialog from Garett (monolog I meant lol ), even something more cinical than usual if it is allowed.:p
How about a new FACTION in game ? World evolves and in Thief II, the Mechanicists emerged separating them from the Hammerites so why not this time something new (not in the same fashion, of course) ? Truth is that THIEF (all series) was so good that anyone would've played missions of every Thief game if they had been done them (I'm not talking here about the fans missions "pack").It has that splendid creepy atmosphere.When Thief III was announced I was afraid that they would spoil it, but they did it again great and I was happy...I would like the game's areas to be wider and to be "updated" to 2009 graphic engines if possible.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th May 2009, 16:50
At last! I've been waiting patiently for someone to create a thread for this faction. :thumb:
A direct link has been added to 'Keeper Diary' thread.

Now, just waiting for someone to create dedicated discussion for the other factions....(we already have one for the Pagans). ;)

Anybody *cough* going to dedicate a thread to Viktoria and pose the question of her possible return? *cough* :D

:whistle:

tender19
14th May 2009, 17:00
I think, what Thief 3 done to mechanist, is a shame. They just disappeared. Mechanist changed the city, security systems were great, only the Servants were dangerous. There should be still followers, some crazy old engineers, who still use the Children and Servants... I'd like to see an inventor's shoppe or a junkyard, where mech beasts still walk the earth but down/upgraded, changed, as personal security beasts. Not for the whole scenario, but one or two mechanist levels would be great.

Direlord
14th May 2009, 17:02
i'd like to see the mechanicists come back but they would need a good excuse as after T2 and the death of Karras the hammerites basically drove them out. Still another leader taking the hammerite approach but working in more of the mechanicist creations would be great. i would like to see the robots and cameras back again in some form.

The keepers would be the interesting faction as after T3 where the city finds out about them i can see them dissolving as their powers are now gone as well. Would they still be a secret society that nobody trusts? Would they be gone just leaving Garrett as the one true keeper?

Pagan and hammerites i think should be in the game still hating each other and not trusting the thief. I would think the Pagans would be a little more accepting of Garrett as Viktoria trusted him a small bit. Either case though their memories of Garretts past crimes against them should not be forgotten but if in the story they think they can use him for their advantage that should be possible.

If any new faction i would say one of the nobles or the higher ruling class. First 2 maybe 3 games were a lot of religious things. Too much chaos with the pagans and the Trickster or far to much order with the mechanicists. Why not have more of the strong prey upon the weak and the oppression of the religions by law.

This could bring back the mechanicist as I can think them not really going the whole builder thing but more cold science. Having the government of the city the nobility or whatever making harsh laws to stem the growth of the religions and put the people into more of a peasant state could be a decent story. You can bring back the plan of taking all the peasant and making them into machines for an army or just servants so the nobility wouldn't have to see or smell them anymore.

This could lead to a darker slum like city except for the closed off i think old quarter as well as giving a chance for the pagans and Hammerites to work with Garrett as bringing down the fall of the nobles plan would help them. If Garrett get his pockets lined with some gold and priceless treasures than thats fine too.

Not the most fleshed out of ideas but something i just thought of now.

Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 17:48
Well, I guess a disciples of Karras emerging ( he was influent enough so it wouldn't be surprisingly for anyone having disciples, right?) in town would end the needing of explaining the Karras disappearing, don't you think ?

DarthEnder
15th May 2009, 02:33
I say that the Mechanist organization should stay dead, but some of the ideas should have permeated the Thief world forever. But having left the idea of Servent's and exterminating all organic life behind with the death of Karras.

With most of the rank and file of the mechanists rejoining the Hammers, I would like to see the Hammers give technology another shot.

And the nobility of The City isn't even going to know what happened, and they've grown accustomed to the security of mechanist technology. Even with the mechanists gone, the nobility surely has the resources to find skilled minds and materials.


Basically, bring back the iron beasts in a big way. Have the Hammers building steam golems. Big, sturdy, made of steel.

And then have the nobility with clockwork golems. More elegant, more fragile, made of brass and various precious metals.

Then maybe even the city Watch has a few. Older models, maybe even repurposed Mechanist golems, they're loud, and dirty and made of cheap iron.


Heres a few examples:

Hammerite construct, made of iron, powered by a steam furnace:
http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/images/khador/warjacks/33003_destroyer_blister.jpg
Pagan construct, made of wood and stone, powered by a nature spirit:
http://www.tellurian.de/blog/media/72005_Woldwatcher_blister.jpg
Necromancer construct, made of iron, powered by a furnace that consumes souls:
http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/images/cryx/warjacks/34056_nightmare.jpg
The Watch's constructs, like the Hammerite's, but not as advanced:
http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/images/mercenaries/warjacks/41008_talon_blister.jpg
And the Nobility's expensive, fancy constructs that run on lightning powered clockworks:
http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/thumbs/lrg-185-32035_avatar_of_menoth_box_set.jpg

GmanPro
15th May 2009, 02:34
I do really want to see those cameras and robots back again. They were great

Prince_VLAD
15th May 2009, 23:40
I say that the Mechanist organization should stay dead, but some of the ideas should have permeated the Thief world forever. But having left the idea of Servent's and exterminating all organic life behind with the death of Karras.
.

You don't like variation at all ? Mechanicist brought color into Thief 2...

Belboz
16th May 2009, 13:56
well you can have mechanists if the storyline doesn't follow on from thief 3, but is actually set after thief 2 and before thief 3. Storylines dont have to follow any of the previous games, they can happen at anytime with in the life of the story.

BoldEnglishman
17th May 2009, 11:50
As Belboz has mentioned, it really depends when the new game is set. If the game is set after Deadly Shadows, then I agree with tender19. The Mechanists may be gone, but their technology and their legacy would not simply vanish overnight - a few pockets of Mechanist faith here and there, possibly congregating in areas of Mechanist importance, would be quite believeable.

I mean, in Thief II, the Lost City has practically become a Mechanist stronghold. We know that Karras gave Cavador orders that he remain at the KD site indefinetly, so what about the other Mechanists that were found there? The Keepers, the Mechanists and Garrett are the only ones who were aware of the Lost City's existence, and with the Keepers out of the picture, the Mechanists can basically continue living in the KD site without any interaction with the outside world, possibly utterly unaware of what happened to Karras back in the City (continuing to worship a man who is now long dead, however as I said this is only a possibility).

Also, what happened to Cavador? Still a prisoner?

Zahr Dalsk
17th May 2009, 17:55
Mechanists were one of my favourite factions in the series (alongside Pagans, ironically; Hammerites I actually didn't like all that much) and I'd love to see them brought back. Keep in mind that while Karras wanted to destroy all life, most of the Mechanists were focused on progress and not really aware of Karras' intentions.

I'd like to see Mechanists in Thief 4 not as a full-out faction such as the Hammerites or Pagans, but just appearing every now and then; following the events of the Metal Age I imagine they'd probably not want to draw too much attention to themselves for a while.

HellionKal
17th May 2009, 18:13
The Mechanist order accounted for quite a lot of members at the end of TMA, so it IS kind of a "mystary!!1one" whatever happened to them after Karras was blown up.

I'd be ok with a cameo-like appearence, in a similar manner that the Hammerites were handled in "the Metal Age" (like in "Shipping...and Receiving", with a weapons merchant commenting on the decrease of the Hammerites' orders on hammers, and a Hammerite commenting that this is due to the decrease of their numbers due to "the rise of the accursed HERETICS!", definitely among the greatest moments of the game).

Or at most Garrett having to deal with them (either face them or strike some sort of deal with the remnants of the Mechanists) on a mission or two.

But certainly not them being major players in the scene.



The Keepers, the Mechanists and Garrett are the only ones who were aware of the Lost City's existence, and with the Keepers out of the picture, the Mechanists can basically continue living in the KD site without any interaction with the outside world, possibly utterly unaware of what happened to Karras back in the City (continuing to worship a man who is now long dead, however as I said this is only a possibility).

Also, what happened to Cavador? Still a prisoner?

I've been wondering the exact same things for a long time now.

MasterTaffer
17th May 2009, 18:17
As far as I'm concerned, the Mechanists died as a faction at the end of Thief 2. With the head of their order turned to a pile of rust at the end of TMA, I don't see the Mechanist chain of command holding together very well, seeing as Karras had his fingers in every little part of the Order. Most likely the organization fell apart through lack of leadership and internal power struggles, and those who tried to bail after discovering Karras' true motives were reabsorbed into the Hammers after repentance.

At the same time, I'm not directly opposed to seeing remnents in the world. Seeing the occasional rusted Mechanist camera or Child of Karras here and there wouldn't be a bad thing. I forget who said it, but something ironic like seeing a helper robot used as a flower pot would also be a nice touch. But as for them coming back to power, I highly doubt it and do not wish to see that. The Mechanists are dead and should stay that way to prevent retread.

A faction I think would be interesting is the Hand Brotherhood, or the mages. Very little about the orginization is known, their secretive, mysterious and make interesting opponents. They very well could be up to something in that tower of theirs, last seen in Thief Gold. I think they would make a great antagonist faction, as there's plenty of blanks that can be filled in for their story.

Ice1019
18th May 2009, 03:52
Actually, I think the Mechanists were referred to in TDS, but only in passing (the ship captain's house had a Mechanist phonograph). I agree with the idea that the Mechanists as a faction should be gone, but their remnants remain. I think maybe a renegade Mechanist could be pretty dangerous, especially one who feels the destruction of his order has removed the last shreds of his morals, leading him to create some seriously dangerous machines that he only has tenuous control over.

Alex50
18th May 2009, 08:51
The Mechanist order can not be revived. They have grown from Hammerit's, and preached extreme ideas, but these ideas had a basis Hammerit's. Karras was Hammerit, and has broken away from them, having presented itself as the tool, then by embodiment of the Founder. If you played TMA - that remember final mission. All devoted followers killed also are transformed into the mechanical slaves. Others have appeared are unworthy and should be lost together with city. In TDS is said - Karras the tool above than founder thought -. He is announced heretic and his(its) machines were destroyed. Other machines were destroyed also. Therefore in TDS there are not enough of machines. Survived Mechanist's have returned to sources of the doctrine - Hammer.

At Hammerit's there are occasions to like and to hate Garrett. In TDP he has helped them to stop Trikster. In TMA he has destroyed Karras and has helped Hammerit's to leave from the false doctrine. (Recollect reasoning's disgraced episcope Hammerit in mission with theft of a mask)

In T4 should be present Pagan's and Hammerit's. They should try to use Garrett in the interests and to be at enmity among themselves. To put any of these fractions in the centre storyline - is silly. T4 it not fanmod or prikvel / sikvel TDP or TMA.

After decline there should be a revival. Steam golems, mechanical servants watching eyes, the gas lamps should be in temples Hammer and in houses of the lords. The appearance them should completely differ from TMA.

Aristofiles
27th Jun 2009, 13:41
I loved the machanist. I see no reason why thay dissapeared. Thier leader die
s and the whole organisation goes underground? I think thay lived on. perhaps in a smaller state but still around. Thier inventions was way to important for the city for them to be compleatly forgotten.

Doubt the Hammers would take them in again though. Hammers hate mechanist and thier devises. If the hammers got thier will through thay would probably kill them all off.

STEAMPUNK!

CaptainObvious
27th Jun 2009, 14:19
I never liked the Mechanists that much, to me they felt like a rip-off of the Hammerites without being as cool as them.

I wouldn't mind seeing a new faction though, like a powerful crime syndicate, for example.

hellknightlizz
27th Jun 2009, 14:45
It would be cool if Garrett had to steal something of value and ended up in soulforge with haunted mech beasts and undead mechanists wandering around....hehehe. After the poisonous gas had deactivated. That would be fun.

LOL undead mechbeasts.

Thieffanman
27th Jun 2009, 21:26
Now, just waiting for someone to create dedicated discussion for the other factions....(we already have one for the Pagans). ;)

Let's see: We have the thread for the Mechanists, you've stated that there's one for Pagans, we have one for the Keepers, and there already was one for the Hammerites . . . wasn't there?

What's left?

--Thieffanman

lurker667
27th Jun 2009, 21:55
New(ish) faction ideas:

Necromancers: all those undead have to come from somewhere, right?

Hand Brotherhood: remember those mages from Thief Gold?

Thieves Guild: its in the lore, and definitely thiefy.

High Society: upper class politics?




Lurker

huzi73
27th Jun 2009, 22:41
The thieves definately have their own faction, as seen in thief gold,their rival IS garrett.

CaptainObvious
28th Jun 2009, 14:52
Rip-off of the Hammerites? That's the second time I've heard wording like that, and it sounds like their origin is not understood, heh heh.

I know their origins, to me they feel just are too similar to the Hammerites, without being as cool. Doesn't have anything to do with their origins.

13LACK13ISHOP
28th Jun 2009, 16:58
I think that it would be best if the mechanist tech would be used by the hammerites. The hammerites need to evolve somehow and bringing the mechanists back would just not be needed.For gameplays sake they have to come back.

Herr_Garrett
28th Jun 2009, 18:36
I say that the Mechanist organization should stay dead, but some of the ideas should have permeated the Thief world forever. But having left the idea of Servent's and exterminating all organic life behind with the death of Karras.

With most of the rank and file of the mechanists rejoining the Hammers, I would like to see the Hammers give technology another shot.

And the nobility of The City isn't even going to know what happened, and they've grown accustomed to the security of mechanist technology. Even with the mechanists gone, the nobility surely has the resources to find skilled minds and materials.


Basically, bring back the iron beasts in a big way. Have the Hammers building steam golems. Big, sturdy, made of steel.

And then have the nobility with clockwork golems. More elegant, more fragile, made of brass and various precious metals.

Then maybe even the city Watch has a few. Older models, maybe even repurposed Mechanist golems, they're loud, and dirty and made of cheap iron.


Heres a few examples:

Hammerite construct, made of iron, powered by a steam furnace:

Pagan construct, made of wood and stone, powered by a nature spirit:

Necromancer construct, made of iron, powered by a furnace that consumes souls:

The Watch's constructs, like the Hammerite's, but not as advanced:

And the Nobility's expensive, fancy constructs that run on lightning powered clockworks:

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Are you a Mechanist Servant or something, so that you can't give up on this idea?

Although your perseverance is remarkable.

DarthEnder
30th Jun 2009, 02:22
You mean the two threads I posted it in? In the same week? Like a month and a half ago?

Yeah...I'm unstoppable...

Fatherwoodsie
3rd Jul 2009, 08:05
but the robots dont know that yet... so keep it a secret!

Hamadriyad
3rd Jul 2009, 08:24
A new faction, maybe. But mechanists again, nooo. They died, vanished. Leave it that way. I really don't like resurrection ideas.(viktoria again, constantine/trickster again etc.) They changed the city, right. But Hammers took back these changes after TMA.

esme
3rd Jul 2009, 11:10
Who's fueling and maintaining them, and how are they all getting away with it?
they are smart enough to fuel and maintain each other perhaps ?

Fatherwoodsie
3rd Jul 2009, 22:18
no need for refueling, they last the entire time you are playing the level at any given time. once their oven is distinguished, they shutdown collapse and never to be refueld. what a waste of water arrows...id rather douse torches then robots. how about midget gaurds, like oompa loompa minions?? its a joke its a joke! anyways when a robot has been defeated, it should trigger a signal that the other robots receive so they can come out and carry it back to the lab for fixing. it would be annoying if they fixed the robot on the spot, then you could never get rid of em!

LordGervasius
3rd Jul 2009, 23:19
Loved the mechanists. I would love to see a sleeper cell of mechanists make a comeback.

BTW, just because they didn't make an appearance in TDS doesn't mean that they can't come back. Mechanists were planning and plotting their next fiendish plan.

Herr_Garrett
4th Jul 2009, 10:36
The only way the Mechanists could come back would be on a big, cube-like ship, while a resurrected Karras screams into a megaphone from the prow:
"We are the Mechanists. Lower you shields and surrender you ships. Your culture will adapt to service us. You will be assimilated. Resistance is... futile."

And the Bots turn everybody into Servants.

:hmm:

DarthEnder
4th Jul 2009, 15:03
What makes the most sense is having the Baron take interest in the Mechanist's machines. He has the resources to find and secure the services of any surviving Mechanist's and to pay for the materials to have the machines made. And he's powerful enough that the Hammerites can't do anything about it.

And once the Baron starts using them they become "in style" and other Nobles follow suit.




Alternatively, you could go the route ofa fan capain, I forget what it was called...Shadows of the Metal Age or Hammerite Imperium I think...and combine undead and machines.

Basically taking Karras' process of creating Servants, and instead of using them on living people, using them on reanimated zombies. The end result is a creature that can be controlled like a Servant, but has the resiliency and all around immunity to KO's of a zombie.

LordGervasius
4th Jul 2009, 15:59
a cult that reanimates zombies would be cool

As a plot device, I think the mechanists serve an important role as the champions of technology in the thief series. If they aren' t brought back then somebody has to take their place.

One reason this is integral as a story device is because as a thief you need to steal stuff. The other side of that equation is, as a person who owns valuables you need to protect things. Mechanical watchers and guard-bots are sweet. Time lock safes, auto fire cannons, combination locks, all this stuff isn't possible without technology. The hammer security technology in TDS was lame.

Bring back the mechanists or a suitable replacement to give garret a real security measure to combat. The mechanists or some order seeking to advance technology should be just as much a fixture in this series as the hammers, pagans, and undead.

Platinumoxicity
4th Jul 2009, 16:06
Alternatively, you could go the route ofa fan capain, I forget what it was called...Shadows of the Metal Age or Hammerite Imperium I think...and combine undead and machines.

Basically taking Karras' process of creating Servants, and instead of using them on living people, using them on reanimated zombies. The end result is a creature that can be controlled like a Servant, but has the resiliency and all around immunity to KO's of a zombie.

Reminds me of the remote controlled drones in Assault on Dark Athena or the cyber soldiers of the Strogg empire in Quake 2. :) But instead of reanimating corpses with technology, controlling magically reanimated dead creatures. Interesting...

...But in my opinion, a bit much. :scratch:

KaiserJohan
4th Jul 2009, 16:23
I'd rather skip a new faction. Most likely it won't be anything good if they do one -- something like the Keeper Assassains guys -- I wouldn't trust another studio to do a faction that feels right.

Just work with the old factions, there's no need to introduce new ones. There's several unclosed chapters still, such as the Eye talking about returning in TDS, that can be used as story. Adding another faction to provide storyground is just cheap and overused at this point.

massimilianogoi
7th Jul 2009, 14:56
they are smart enough to fuel and maintain each other perhaps ?

Agree!! :thumb:


No KARRAS.

The Hammers held Heresy Trials and apparently stripped The City clean of 99% of their presence. The Hammers have Inquisitors, and we know how nasty they can be. The Mechanists would be weaksauce. Neo-Mechanists would be smote down! Karras did not share his secrets derived from Precursor technology.



All we need are more remnants of tech and architecture and discarded toys that few know how to fix. A tinkerer with a junk yard that makes new things from the old stuff, but no Frankenstein bots, please!

Where did you noticed about that Hammers Heresy Trials??

More: Karras served his cause with already prepared technician, so it was impossible that he kept all the precursor secret, sorry, jtr7. We only know that many of them were re-absorbed in the Hammerite order, but we don't know if they kept intact their ideals.

gryphos
7th Jul 2009, 20:54
Basically taking Karras' process of creating Servants, and instead of using them on living people, using them on reanimated zombies. The end result is a creature that can be controlled like a Servant, but has the resiliency and all around immunity to KO's of a zombie

>>In (if I recall correctly) the Eavesdropping mission, you break into a building with a couple of large glass tanks with bodies floating in them like bacta tanks, a couple of servant masks nearby, and a corpse on a prep table. Now Truart was swiping the dregs of society for Karras - folk who wouldn't be missed or matter if they were and in the Mechanist Seminary, we find some of them in process of becoming servants. They are ALREADY dead. So Karras is using rubber band aetheric "scientistic" magical necromancy. The servants are already zombies of a specialized sort - they just are fresh enough to still retain tortured memories to mutter about.


The hammer security technology in TDS was lame.
Bring back the mechanists or a suitable replacement to give garret a real security measure to combat. The mechanists or some order seeking to advance technology should be just as much a fixture in this series as the hammers, pagans, and undead.

The Mechanists WERE cool, and Karras was a good villain. But the necrotic mutox is like the atom bomb in a magical world. The Hammers would not want that tech or any related tech in anyone else's hands for precisely the reason that we don't want nukes in just anyone's hands either. Even the Baron. jtr7 has adequately discussed reasons that this faction has been effectively erased. As for the Baron, he's out fighting Blackbrook, so he's not around to take charge of any tech the Hammers don't want him to have anyway. Furthermore, I think it likely that the Keepers, on the sly probably helped insure that the Nobles who had any squirreled away were ratted out to the Hammers in order to maintain the balance. That said, I think it also likely that there might be some former Mechanists who might possibly be non-factional enough that they would be received back into the fold, albeit, in a permenantly cloistered house arrest. I think that it is possible that this was the fate of Cavador, who seemed to me rather more of the clueless technical genius, content to invent for whomever would allow it, but otherwise willfully unconcerned with politics. He squealed readily enough when Victoria questioned him ("spilled his guts" but "not literally") He didn't die like a fanatic. If he escaped or was rescued by Hammers after Viktoria died, he could still be around, in some remote cloister, a penitant Hammer.

I don't buy refueling robots. They constantly droned on about "Builder refuel us" meaning Karras, who seemed to keep the final secret of how they worked to himself. Others manufactured parts, but he did the final assembly to keep power in his own hands alone. A select few (like Cavador) may have been able to understand it, but... the remains of the bots would be melted down or retained as flower pots.

Tohtori
8th Jul 2009, 00:43
Keepers were studied and revealed for player in T3 and Hammerites and Pagans in previous games. That's why Thi4f need new mysterious group.

Maybe Mechanists could come back. Not as faction though but a small underground cult with even more insane prophet. Thieves guild could also be good faction. Or perhaps the mages could come back or keeper would divide and form new different and mysterious faction. Or maybe nobles could for a freemason-like conspiracy.

Zahr Dalsk
8th Jul 2009, 04:57
Mechanists were a great part of the setting; they were the main key to the uniqueness of the Thief 2 setting. I'd love to see them brought back and see more steampunk, Thief 2 styled areas in Thief 4.

Zahr Dalsk
8th Jul 2009, 05:14
Brought back how?

As in we get more noble houses missions. I imagine the Mechanist Order would get back together after Karras' death.

kabatta
8th Jul 2009, 05:39
Maybe some come back demented from the prison/purification torture chambers of the hammerite order. A prisoner uprising in a night when most of the inhabitants of the building are at the religious ceremony. Starting from the bottom they can scrap some help from the remaining believers in the city, living as vagabonds in derelict buildings, going to the place where soulforge once was. Realising that Karras has failed and the whole order was vanquished because of the lack of his faith. Togheter, that group of delirious men and women reform a hip new underground religion based on initial mechanist doctrine, adding their own collected desillusions. Others with weak character are added to the group. They may ass well be a malevolent neo-mechanist group or bent on creating hordes and hordes of servants.
The scripture that uses the industry processes and mechanism as methaphores can be minimized to be shadowed by explanations of the sins of the first order. The time when mechanists were the leading the religious and political scene of the city beying called the "bronze time" so that the folowind uprising would the "the silver time".
The robots would be changed to a more sophisticated look, made from smaller, more fragile gears made out of iron, covered in a silver-like colour. Taking theese changes in consideration the robots can be a little more resembling to humans. To look normal, but with porcelain cold faces, clothing and garmets hidint the cold metall "skin". Such robots may as well be guarding the safe house where you could see the failed models. Not to mention that the mechanism is not the coal burning oven, but a complex system that integrated the necrotic mutox: they ingest plants to be stored in a dispenser that systematically pushes some of it in a lower recipient that contains the mutox . There, the gas is made, it pushes it's way into more systems based on pressure that facilitate moving. The weapon can be a integrated arbalet in the hand of the female modell and a small bomb launcher in the head of the male modell. In the course of creating such dangerous robots a few rookie mechanist died of course, however, they pressed on to perfect the child of the builder.
The hammers of course are infiltrated by a few former mechanists that supply with information abouth places that are going to be raided by the inquisition, the moves that the hammerites are going to do, etcetera.
But...my imagination runs amok. :P

kabatta
8th Jul 2009, 05:58
I started with the same supposition that the remaining mechanists would be pathetic compared to the former ones, but in the meantime my imagination started to take control and create a fantasy idea withouth any real base or logic. :p

Zahr Dalsk
8th Jul 2009, 08:58
All we know is that Soulforge was destroyed, taking out Karras and a lot of Mechanist machinery.

Would nobles would be willing to give up their high-tech Mechanists who keep the mansions secure and advanced, and don't bother them with Hammerite religion? (The nobles far preferred Mechanists - they found Hammerite priests embarrassing.)

And would the Hammerites have the strength to make the nobles give them up? I really doubt it. The nobles have money and power, they have guards, and the Mechanists have Iron Beasts, Turrets, Watchers, etc, meaning the Hammerites would have to be suicidal to actually try and make a move against them.

More to the point, the Mechanists would still have the City's support if they came back. No one in the city likes Hammerites. Most people were pretty happy with Mechanists. Karras' plans were only known to Garrett and Viktoria, and to a few suspicious Mechanists who figure what he was up to - in short, nowhere near enough people to actually make the city believe it.

The only people who really hate Mechanists are the Pagans and Hammerites. The nobles like them. The City Watch like them. The common people like them. The Hammerites can denounce Karras as a heretic, sure, but they can't really DO anything about the Mechanists.

And that's just Mechanists who continue their work openly. There are also those who might choose to remain undercover in the KD Site, kept well supplied by their brethren in the noble houses through the Cetus Amicus. Possibly other lost underground places accessible only through ocean.

Bringing back Mechanists would be perfectly feasible, and it would help restore the wonderful Thief 2 feel to the series.

Hamadriyad
8th Jul 2009, 09:11
And we can't dismiss TDS, right?;)

Zahr Dalsk
8th Jul 2009, 09:12
Cite them, then, if you would be so kind.

massimilianogoi
8th Jul 2009, 11:43
I don't buy refueling robots. They constantly droned on about "Builder refuel us" meaning Karras, who seemed to keep the final secret of how they worked to himself. Others manufactured parts, but he did the final assembly to keep power in his own hands alone. A select few (like Cavador) may have been able to understand it, but... the remains of the bots would be melted down or retained as flower pots.

"Friend Gorrick,

He's not the only one who knows how to refuel/are functioning the robots:

M14B04.STR: "Please make thou haste in repairing this Child -- that treacherous Pagan didst harm it most grievously. But fear not that any more of thy companions will be harmed, for the saboteur hast been subdued...

-- Friend Pendelus"

If someone knows how to repair one thing, he surely knows also how it's functioning.

More:

M06B10.STR: "Friend Coltus,

Recent experiments have confirmed my fears -- mere water can indeed halt the Builder's Children! If a significant amount of moisture pools in the aft boiler, the result is complete paralysis! The weather has been agreeable of late, but if a thunderstorm were to strike....
Coltus, I task you with fixing this problem immediately. Water poured directly into the boiler may shut the Children down, but you must at least be competent enough to protect them from a simple rain shower!

-- Father Karras"

I guess some mechanists could hide and been escaped from the Hammerites trial. Plus: the noble took advantage from the mechanists devices, so it could be auspicable that they want to use again that technology, obviously after having checked them for their security (that the devices are not an hided weapon, as the servants). Let's think to the modern estates: what between them hasn't a set of security cam? :) We can also paragon the robots to the guard-dogs. They are tirelessly guarding their territory. So what noble could not have them?

Herr_Garrett
8th Jul 2009, 11:49
Right as always, jtr.

Really would you embrace a sect again that took all your money for a security system that didn't work (both in MA and DS) properly, and wanted to kill you? And turned people into mindless whatevers? And was out to destroy your beautiful garden? And hates burricks?

Not really. Moreover, since the Hammers judged that the Mechanist teachings were heresy, I suppose anyone who supported them or even dared to apply their technology would find themselves on the rack in the blink of an eye.

Also, consider the fact that the Bots were big, clumsy, and frightening. The Mechanists didn't have the time to perfect them, so they (the Bots) wouldn't be much favoured. The security systems were maintained by Mechanist brothers/sisters - whom are either dead or incarcerated.

massimilianogoi
8th Jul 2009, 13:43
... The security systems were maintained by Mechanist brothers/sisters - whom are either dead or incarcerated.

It's very strange that a faction strongest than the Hammers as the Mechanists were, would not have entered in a war before falling. After all the greatest part of the faction and bots were out whene the Soulforge accident happened, so they could engage a fight, and evenctually even win, against the Hammers and all the other ones that tried to arrest/kill them...

Zahr Dalsk
8th Jul 2009, 17:32
I forgot to mention that the nobles couldn't have been impressed for long after Garrett circumvented all the security devices they purchased and cleaned house.

That's a nice claim to make, but how much truth is there to it?

Garrett robbed Gervaisius and Truart. And... that's all. And he was the only one who managed it.

I think since the rest of the Nobles' security worked perfectly, they'd probably be quite happy with the Mechanists.

Moreover, dialogue in Thief 2 indicates that the nobles dislike Hammerite behavior and religion and far preferred the Mechanists. Even if the Mechanists didn't have better technology, the nobles would have preferred them because they were more progressive and charismatic than Hammerites.

(By the way, Mechanists didn't have anything against nobles keeping gardens. Source: Thief 2. Missions: Blackmail, Casing, Masks.)

gryphos
8th Jul 2009, 21:36
There is not a sensible way to bring the Mechanists back. They were fun in T2... but they served their dramatic purpose and it would take some hydraulic shoe-horn to make them fit again. Let dead horses lie. Hammers remain as the agent of steampunk flavoring. To be sure, they may work a bit different here and there than in T1 because circumstances have forced them to adapt - BUT - keep the Hammers, HAMMERS, not new mechanists. Also, a more fanatic and insane prophet than Karras would be so divorced from reality I'm not really sure he'd be any more effective as a villain than a poached egg.

As for Keepers, I'd think that the majority would be hostile toward the guy who wiped out their method and purpose for existing, and as such would be aggressive enemies. I don't see them being organized enough in the immediate aftermath to be the major enemy, but they are good kickers for dramatic action. And even though they have lost the magic of the glyphs, many are still highly skilled at stealthy, scouting/spying skills, with others very skilled experts in many kinds of esoteric lore. Some small number though, like Artemis, would be more inclined to accept their lot and move on because they thought Garret was doing the right thing.

gryphos
8th Jul 2009, 21:57
He's not the only one who knows how to refuel/are functioning the robots:
>> Right. What I said is that there would be a select few who were technical experts on the higher level tech. As suggested by the quotes above, not all the glitches were known to mid-level Mechs, much less the rank and file, or their observations would be of no consequence. Furthermore, if every Mech was an expert, why bother to go to KD to kidnap Cavador? Why not go to the local Mech shrine and nab Benny the Mechanist?

As for the nobles attitudeds post TMA, upon learning that Karras was infiltrating booby-trapped tech into their houses with something that utterly destroys all life around it... Hmmm. Keep the biocidal fanatic's incomprehensible, unreliable, and very expensive tech around... or just go out and buy a dozen guard dogs and a flock of watch geese for a fraction the price?

Zahr Dalsk
8th Jul 2009, 22:04
As for the nobles attitudeds post TMA, upon learning that Karras was infiltrating booby-trapped tech into their houses with something that utterly destroys all life around it...

Except they aren't going to learn that, because the destruction of Soulforge also meant the destruction of all the servants, removing any evidence.

Zahr Dalsk
9th Jul 2009, 02:01
All they'll know is there was a disaster at Soulforge.

If word did get out about what Karras planned, the Mechanists could simply lie and say they knew what Karras was up to, and recalled the servants and destroyed Soulforge to stop him. After all, no one saw what happened there aside from Garrett, and he's not the sort to brag about it.

Zahr Dalsk
9th Jul 2009, 04:46
You just skipped over the Heresy Trials part

Which never really made a lot of sense either, just shoehorned in there with no explanation, or indeed, any justification on how the small, fragile Hammerite order was able to take down the Mechanists.

The debate here of course is what makes more sense, for Mechanists to return and stay gone (we've already established that their return would be awesome, all that's discussed is the feasibility lore-wise) and while some existing lore conflicts, most points towards Mechanists still being around in solid strength.

Herr_Garrett
9th Jul 2009, 06:13
Which never really made a lot of sense either, just shoehorned in there with no explanation, or indeed, any justification on how the small, fragile Hammerite order was able to take down the Mechanists.

The debate here of course is what makes more sense, for Mechanists to return and stay gone (we've already established that their return would be awesome, all that's discussed is the feasibility lore-wise) and while some existing lore conflicts, most points towards Mechanists still being around in solid strength.

If you count being in the tanty counting cockroaches as being united, well, then you are right.

The fact is that lore-wise the Mechanists are gone (source: Thief: Deadly Shadows). Oh, there could be some people who still like them, I'll grant you that, but that's it. They are like Elvis-fans, really. While there is a King, a leader, the world is pink and fluffy and everything is nice. When he's gone, pinkness and fluffiness are gone too, welcome to the real world. And they just get used to it.

Although, yes, possibly there are some people who harbour bad feelings, on the lines of: "Why on earth did we not kill all organic life? Why? Unclean flesh and all that crap."
But they are taken care of by the City Watch and the Hammer Inqusitors.

As for the question that how could the Hammers destroy the Mechs utterly: we don't know for certain that how many Hammers went over to the Mechs. It might be less than half of them. And in addition there was the Watch, some Pagans possibly, and the innocent bystanders. Total blue milk run, I suppose, and even more so with the Mechanists likely to be running around like headless chickens - because, you know, Karras died.

massimilianogoi
9th Jul 2009, 08:52
You just skipped over the Heresy Trials part, and the part where I pointed out the Hammers taking advantage of the situation to reinstitue themselves into The City. The City Tribune and City Chronicle and whatever other newspaper in town would be on it, like they were with the Abysmal Gale and the Quarantine at Docks. And you skipped the part about the Balance and the entire end result of all of TMA and the end of TDP/Gold. They are gone and the Mechanists cannot be connected with the Hammers anymore or the trilogy pretty much meant nothing, and the restoration of Balance meant nothing. Let them go another 50 years first.

Again, you people are ignoring that the Mechanist are most powerful and in major number than the Hammers, so they could have engaged a battle, most of them could be escaped, and only someone would be captured and passed through the Heresy Trial. We don't know who did it. The Keepers wrote that the Mechanist religion was disbanded, but maybe only in the City??

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 09:55
I also share the opinion the Mechanists can/should reappear in one or another form. I don't believe in this canon restrictions... I think there should be some Mechs left anywhere who stick to their path. They wouldn't belief their way was wrong, they would just think bad Garrett intervened in their first plan and prevented the Builder's arrival.

They could start to combine themselves with the technology, maybe add in stronger magical influences, maybe even the glyphs. They could experiment with augmentation technology or cyborgs. To become more like the Builder wants them to be in their eyes.

Herr_Garrett
9th Jul 2009, 10:07
I don't believe in this canon restrictions.

Then continue writing the Bible desregarding that Jesus was crucified. Oh what fun! Just think of the possibilities!

:mad2:

As for the rest: have you played MA? Because, you know, this story was told in MA...

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z156/donutmikey/Funny/facepalm_implied.jpg

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 10:19
The Bible can't be compared to Thief. Faith is not negotiable.

On the other hand I would like to see lets say Moby Di.ck re-written. That's not forbidden and could become exciting.

And @ the rest: Oh sry it was told in TMA? I think I missed the part after Karras' death then.

Herr_Garrett
9th Jul 2009, 10:52
The Bible can't be compared to Thief. Faith is not negotiable.

It can be compared inasmuch as both of them have a canon, which is not to be disregarded. I don't give a damn about faith. This was a handy example - but nevertheless misunderstood...


On the other hand I would like to see lets say Moby Di.ck re-written. That's not forbidden and could become exciting.

And @ the rest: Oh sry it was told in TMA? I think I missed the part after Karras' death then.

Go ahead, try and make a Moby D.ick 1.5. I'll read it with interest, I promise.

Yes, it was told in MA. The Servants, remember? Those poor sods "augmented" with magic and cyberstuff, to make them "more useful"? And the Servant-ified Mechanists in Soulforge? I think this comes under the heading "combining themselves with technology".

esme
9th Jul 2009, 11:13
just a side point but Karras' chamber could have been made airtight with vents only to the outside air the instant he became aware that something was wrong, so it is possible Karras isn't dead

he was an engineer of sorts and every engineer I know likes having backup systems, belt braces and a bit of string with a button on the end, just in case
--EDIT--
on the other hand having just looked at the briefing video (cs16.avi) he wasn't in his chamber when the necrotic mutox was released, so maybe he did get caught by it, he isn't shown anywhere as being enveloped in a gas cloud and dissolving though

Hamadriyad
9th Jul 2009, 12:02
If Karras didn't die, what happened to him? The most reasonable thing is assuming Karras died in my opinion.

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 12:03
Herr Garrett you seem to be unable to maintain a basic amount of civility, mind your statements.

And I talked about the mechanists augmenting themselves not some poor dead pagans. btw it's not clear what the servants exactly are, they don't seem to be steam powered robot-cyborgs.

As jtr always says "read what's been said" - I wonder why he didn't point that out in this special case - uhmm maybe because you share his opinion.



Since he wasn't in his chamber, but rather, in the seminary, he could've dropped through a trapdoor in the floor. Since there was no more rust gas left, his plans would be set back until he could get more, if possible.

Where was the trapdoor, we didn't see it, you inventing stuff or what? Isn't that against the law of Thief?!?


Karras died? Prove it, Friendly! I don't believe you. We never see it happen! The look on his face was only in surprise that something was amiss and a bout to make a mess! He was so augmented the rust gas wouldn't hurt him!:mad2::mad2:

He wore a helmet, his face was perfectly human. No heavy augmentation to a no longer flesh degree. But I guess you get that from some unused text which ought to appear in deleted level region X-91 only present in the pre alpha from March '99 ...

hey, I'm sure its more likely that Karras started screaming in the rust gas cloud, then took his suitcase whispering to his servant: " Ok Cedric, lets move to kuba and lets never come back - the canon demands it. Don't forget your rubber ducky pal and clean up the whole city from the servant's rests and machines. The canon will thank you if we are never to be mentioned again."

yeah of course, but my ideas are against the canon... reappearance of Mechs, how stupid I was to even THINK in such bizarre ways.

And yeah I stated already I would find it exciting if we get an alternative story progress version. The reappearance of Mechanists would of course only be an alternative story for you, since I do not think the Mechs couldn't reappear, within a normal story for T4. That thought that they can't reappear is your daydream, not mine.

massimilianogoi
9th Jul 2009, 15:57
Since he wasn't in his chamber, but rather, in the seminary, he could've dropped through a trapdoor in the floor. Since there was no more rust gas left, his plans would be set back until he could get more, if possible.

LOL. Jason: don't reveal my FM :lol: Anyway, I don't know if you joked. So I ask you: is so stupid this possibility? I should be very interested to your reponse.

kabatta
9th Jul 2009, 16:20
The last movie in TMA shows a shocked Karras that looks at a rust gas coming at him quickly. The building was full of vegetation. A hole connecting to the outside world would have helped spread the mutox. Therefore, Karras is as dead as can be. My imagination says that the rust sand Garrett was checking out in the same video was the remains of Karras.

Hamadriyad
9th Jul 2009, 17:21
I agree with your imagination.:D

Herr_Garrett
9th Jul 2009, 18:17
Herr Garrett you seem to be unable to maintain a basic amount of civility, mind your statements.

And I talked about the mechanists augmenting themselves not some poor dead pagans. btw it's not clear what the servants exactly are, they don't seem to be steam powered robot-cyborgs.

As jtr always says "read what's been said" - I wonder why he didn't point that out in this special case - uhmm maybe because you share his opinion.


Where was the trapdoor, we didn't see it, you inventing stuff or what? Isn't that against the law of Thief?!?

He wore a helmet, his face was perfectly human. No heavy augmentation to a no longer flesh degree. But I guess you get that from some unused text which ought to appear in deleted level region X-91 only present in the pre alpha from March '99 ...

hey, I'm sure its more likely that Karras started screaming in the rust gas cloud, then took his suitcase whispering to his servant: " Ok Cedric, lets move to kuba and lets never come back - the canon demands it. Don't forget your rubber ducky pal and clean up the whole city from the servant's rests and machines. The canon will thank you if we are never to be mentioned again."

yeah of course, but my ideas are against the canon... reappearance of Mechs, how stupid I was to even THINK in such bizarre ways.

And yeah I stated already I would find it exciting if we get an alternative story progress version. The reappearance of Mechanists would of course only be an alternative story for you, since I do not think the Mechs couldn't reappear, within a normal story for T4. That thought that they can't reappear is your daydream, not mine.

So you stick to your s-hit, we stick to ours. That about wraps it up.

As for minding my manners: or else...? :mad2:

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 18:21
So you stick to your s-hit, we stick to ours. That about wraps it up.

As for minding my manners: or else...? :mad2:

Nobody can force you to behave, but calling others a ******* retard shows what one ought to think about you and your arguments. I took the measures available on this board. Have a nice day.

kabatta
9th Jul 2009, 18:24
Passive aggresive still counts as aggresive in the whole picture.

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 18:25
Passive aggresive still counts as aggresive in the whole picture.

So I'm the one to blame because others use plain insults and breaking the forum rules? Or how do you mean that?

I would say, someone who cannot even stand the existance of another opinion in such an alarming way that he/she uses cuss words has no place on any discussion board.

kabatta
9th Jul 2009, 18:36
I mean you should all cut it out. Even if you put your card on the table or hinting them (cards= agreivity), it doesn't mean that you have to fight. There are opinion, counter oppinions. Period. I'm not pointing fingers. Ijust think that you people should mellow out.

Herr_Garrett
9th Jul 2009, 18:37
Nobody can force you to behave, but calling others a ******* retard shows what one ought to think about you and your arguments. I took the measures available on this board. Have a nice day.

:lol::mad2::lol::mad2::lol:

http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs42/f/2009/132/0/9/Star_Trek_Spock_Agree_With_Me_by_schematization.gif

I take this sort of stuff from Spock only.

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 18:38
I mean you should all cut it out. Even if you put your card on the table or hinting them (cards= agreivity), it doesn't mean that you have to fight. There are opinion, counter oppinions. Period.

So I should just take beeing insulted for my opinion - well you can forget that. It won't happen. Even if certain persons lack the mental ability to behave along the most basic conventions, one has not got to accept such behaviour.


:lol::mad2::lol::mad2::lol:

http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs42/f/2009/132/0/9/Star_Trek_Spock_Agree_With_Me_by_schematization.gif



ROFL great I'm a huge Star Trek fan and I love people which show self irony - thx for that.

kabatta
9th Jul 2009, 18:40
Dibbs on the firsts seats in the flame warr? I sell imaginary chainsaws too. Get them whyle they are still hot.

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 18:41
Dibbs on the firsts seats in the flame warr? I sell imaginary chainsaws too. Get the whyle they are still hot.

And don't forget the popcorn.

kabatta
9th Jul 2009, 18:48
I got it right here. Let the games begin. Oh...and the first one that gets banned from obvious killing the forum rulles gets a ferrari. The ferrai is imaginary too.

gryphos
9th Jul 2009, 19:39
>>I also share the opinion the Mechanists can/should reappear in one or another form. I don't believe in this canon restrictions... I think there should be some Mechs left anywhere who stick to their path. They wouldn't belief their way was wrong, they would just think bad Garrett intervened in their first plan and prevented the Builder's arrival.

Sure. I can buy some Mechs reappearing in one form... ya know the ones suckered in fresh who were not original hammers and are of the blind faith sort who check their brain at the chaple door when they go out into the street in sack-cloth with sandwich board signs doomsaying about how "KARRAS WILL RETURN FROM HIS TRAP DOOR AND ALL WHO ARE AGAINST HIM WILL DIE! but i'll sell you an indulgence for a few pennies..."

FriendlyStranger
9th Jul 2009, 19:53
>>I also share the opinion the Mechanists can/should reappear in one or another form. I don't believe in this canon restrictions... I think there should be some Mechs left anywhere who stick to their path. They wouldn't belief their way was wrong, they would just think bad Garrett intervened in their first plan and prevented the Builder's arrival.

Sure. I can buy some Mechs reappearing in one form... ya know the ones suckered in fresh who were not original hammers and are of the blind faith sort who check their brain at the chaple door when they go out into the street in sack-cloth with sandwich board signs doomsaying about how "KARRAS WILL RETURN FROM HIS TRAP DOOR AND ALL WHO ARE AGAINST HIM WILL DIE! but i'll sell you an indulgence for a few pennies..."

Thx for supporting my view. It's good that not everyone has something against other people's opinion.

massimilianogoi
10th Jul 2009, 07:57
The last movie in TMA shows a shocked Karras that looks at a rust gas coming at him quickly. The building was full of vegetation. A hole connecting to the outside world would have helped spread the mutox. Therefore, Karras is as dead as can be. My imagination says that the rust sand Garrett was checking out in the same video was the remains of Karras.

A SEALED trapdoor??? Mmmmh... Naaahhh... The Mutox could not pass XD And maybe this trapdoor didn't bring to the outside world, but to some secret passage to secret room.


I was joking, I'm afraid.


I totally buy into the games' story. Karras is dead. He cannot hide from the Glyphs unless the Glyphs protect him. All happened as it was written, and there was more...

So it's so stupid this idea? :confused:

massimilianogoi
10th Jul 2009, 08:29
You run into trouble if you try to connect it to the official games, but by itself it's okay. I'm not saying it's stupid, I just believe the OMs don't make it very plausible. Don't worry about it, Mass', and just make your FM the best T3 Mechanist FM EVER! I can't wait to see the Mechanists and technology in the Flesh Engine. :)

Its seems the "good cooky for the doggy" :p. The initial purpose of my FM was the continuation of Thief 3, since at the time we know that there will be no more Thief, so the FM story have to be very connected to the official games. So you think isn't very plausible :hmm: Hmm... then I will invent something other..

Hamadriyad
10th Jul 2009, 08:56
What is flesh engine?

massimilianogoi
10th Jul 2009, 10:31
You're not obligated to. ;) Especially since there's a Thief 4 coming and your project is an FM where there are no rules but the ones you make (that the computer lets you do), and because it's your right to do what you want with your own projects!

Personally, just seeing the Mechanists and their technology in the Flesh Engine would likely be cool enough for everybody!

No, I wanted write a continuation, so, because I'm a logical person, I pretend that my mission are logical too, that's why I was interested to your POV, assumed that you are one of the greatest conoisseur of this game (not that I speak in singular; IMO is only one game subdivided in four parts, if we consider also Thief Gold).


What is flesh engine?

The graphic engine of Thief - Deadly Shadows.

gryphos
13th Jul 2009, 20:31
>>btw it's not clear what the servants exactly are, they don't seem to be steam powered robot-cyborgs.
Again, I think that the evidence in eavesdropping strongly suggested some kind of steampunk necromancy. The locked outbuilding on the (west?) side had a couple of glass tanks of noxious green fluid with a body floating in it, the work table had the corpse of one of Truart's street people on it, and servant mask parts nearby, and another servant laying nearby if I recall. The servants that are up and moving are constantly moaning like some unquiet dead... OK it doesn't out and out say they are steampunk zombies, but...


>>Thx for supporting my view. It's good that not everyone has something against other people's opinion.
I support the return of the Mechanists with tongue firmly in cheek. As long as they are the disgruntled remnants like the ones that missed the Heavan's Gate Kool-aid party (say from the KD site; "gee things sure change once you get off duty to take shore-leave!") then I'm OK with one residing on a corner of the night market before being husled off by the watch for disturbing the peace.

DarthEnder
14th Jul 2009, 15:25
I like how you keep trying to say 99% of the Mechanists were wiped out when, frankly, none of your evidence support that.

All the information you posted said was they were "disbanded". I don't know how you get this whole "scoured the city clean!" angle from that.

Besides which, if the Hammers eliminated 99% of the Mechanists, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY HAMMERS ANYMORE. That was one of the whole plot threads of TMA, was that they Hammerites were practically a dead organization by the end of the game because so much of the order became Mechanists. If the Hammerites didn't reabsorb most of the Mechanists back into their religion, they wouldn't be a power in the city themselves anymore.

The only logical conclusion for the trials is that the Mechanists that were aware of Karras' plans were executed, and those that weren't were reinstated into the Hammerites. Out of necessity, the Hammerites needed them back. In fact, most of the Mechanists, after finding out what Karras' was doing probably WANTED to rejoin the Hammerites. It's still the same basic Faith after all.


Like I said, I think the Nobles hiring on Mechanist remnants for their own personal security and conveniences makes the most sense for their inclusion in Thief 4. The Nobles desire their technology, but not their ideals.

I do agree that, as a faction, the Mechanists are done. Any involvement of the Mechanist would boil down to "Frank, the former mechanist, now Lord Largebottom's personal house engineer."

That or, "Cavador, The Baron's Master Artificer" :p


On the subject of mechanist servants being some kind of steampunk zombies, that's clearly not the case because you can still knock them out. They're alive...after some fashion. It's just not explained how exactly.

Fatherwoodsie
14th Jul 2009, 17:21
[QUOTE=DarthEnder;1061308

The only logical conclusion for the trials is that the Mechanists that were aware of Karras' plans were executed, and those that weren't were reinstated into the Hammerites. Out of necessity, the Hammerites needed them back. In fact, most of the Mechanists, after finding out what Karras' was doing probably WANTED to rejoin the Hammerites. It's still the same basic Faith after all.QUOTE]

what is this malarky? i dont know where you get off making a story that doesnt exist. why cant you just realize that after thief 1 they said "alright lets try soemthing new", i think they just said lets see how far we can take the hammerite to a new level. thus, created the mechanists. then at the end of the "metal age", ion storm came in and said "alright throw the hammerites back in there since they, (lgs) had a good thing going, and well take it from there".
although they are similar, i dont think the hammerites were "transformed" into the mechanists. and what do you mean "probably wanted to rejoin"? its just a game.lol your making it sound like they have a mind of their own. no hard feelings. maybe im wrong anyways

DarthEnder
14th Jul 2009, 17:49
Um, it's all over Thief 2. Most of the Mechanists are former Hammerites. Karras WAS a Hammerite. They're the same basic religion, faith in the Builder. Mechanists became Mechanists because to them it seemed like the natural progression of the Builder's faith.

Afterwards, they'd be all "Huh, our mechanist leader was a madman trying to destroy all life. I still believe in the Builder though. I'd like to be a Hammerite again."

Fatherwoodsie
14th Jul 2009, 18:57
yeah it shows you how long its been since ive played that game. my fault.

gryphos
14th Jul 2009, 21:15
>>On the subject of mechanist servants being some kind of steampunk zombies, that's clearly not the case because you can still knock them out. They're alive...after some fashion. It's just not explained how exactly.

Then why are both the people in the Mechanist Seminary on the prep table corpses? The servants are not zombies in the more specific sense that the other zombies in game are, but... dead street person+precursor artifact+Mechanist mad science = steampunk zombie once they start walking around mumbling about how cold they are.

gryphos
14th Jul 2009, 21:18
Obviously, the Hammers had enough of a presence to figure definitively in TMA and resurface to power in TDS. I suspect that their attitude toward penitant Mechanists would depend on which flavor they were: heretic Hammers, or raw recruits.

DarthEnder
14th Jul 2009, 21:56
You saw TDS. Do you see much sign of the Mechanists in the game, other than a few gadgets? All the metal plating is gone from most buildings, including in the rich areas. Or do you have another theory? You skipped the Heresy Trials, and the fact that Hammers have Inquisitors, and also the fact that the Keepers show no concern for them as a faction. Brother Uriel asked for a quarter of the usual order of hammers from Kilgor. Two missions away from the end of the game, we saw that Gervaisius still had Father Norrell as his chaplain. The Mechanists abandoned the Hammers' most sacred holy symbols (they are powerful, if you remember), and heresy would fall before the wrathful might of angry Hammers jumping on the opportunity to go after a heretical body of stunned believers who just had their head cut off. The Hammer texts state that to denounce the Hammer is to denounce The Builder--blasphemous. The Builder's Chalice destroys heretics and heathens when called upon. Brother Reginald was recommended for a flogging for not praying at a statue on a couple of occasions. Do you think they would be suffered to live without crippling punishment that could kill them? Look what was done to the prisoners of Cragscleft for doing so much less than the Mechanists did. You want to show me in-game evidence for a formidable Mechanist presence? Where is your in-game evidence?I like how all of the questions you asked me there, were answered in the second half of my post that you didn't quote.

Primarily that they aren't Mechanists anymore. They are Hammerites again. If the Hammerites hadn't reabsorbed the Mechanists, they wouldn't be a power again in DS.

Which is more evidence than your usual "take a half sentence from a readable that wasn't even in the final game, make up a big long story to go along with it, then try and pass the whole thing off to people as canon and point them to the half sentence when they try and argue".

But no, the fact that there were Heresy Trials and the Mechanists were disbanded of course means every Mechanist in the city was executed. Because, as has been mentioned many times before, it makes total sense for an organization much weaker than another to be able to try and execute that organizition without most of its former members returning first.


Again, I'm not arguing that the Mechanist organization, and its machines, no longer exist as an organization. They're absense from DS is evidence of that(that, or that the designers are just lazy). I'm arguing that the Mechanists themselves, the individuals, were "wiped out". When it makes much more sense that most of them rejoined the Hammers.

There's as much evidence to support one theory as the other, which is to say, absolutely none for either.

Burrick
16th Jul 2009, 08:51
Then why are both the people in the Mechanist Seminary on the prep table corpses? The servants are not zombies in the more specific sense that the other zombies in game are, but... dead street person+precursor artifact+Mechanist mad science = steampunk zombie once they start walking around mumbling about how cold they are.

But you don't know, what they are doing in there exactly. Maybe this is just an experiment to test out new mask layouts on corpses, or maybe they are just trying to create zombie servants, but until now have only used living individuals. the little room in Eavesdropping could just be a laboratory and not the factory.

Hamadriyad
16th Jul 2009, 09:28
I don't think that servants are zombies. I remember something, a conversation or a letter I don't know but I remember a sentence something like this: They are crying.
Probably those voices are not cry, just weird voices. But I think they are not dead, they are aware of what they are but they can't do nothing.

Hamadriyad
16th Jul 2009, 10:19
Yes, you are right. Also If they living, it is hard to explain how they don't effect by rust gas.



Speaking of which, we could have Mechanist Haunts.

Hammerite faction is an old faction. Mechanists were new. I think that's why we don't have Mechanist haunts in TMA. But after TMA, yes, we could have. Especially near of ruins of soulforge. In fact, we should have. Maybe in Thief IV?;)

Hamadriyad
16th Jul 2009, 11:44
Oh, and the Servants are affected by the rust-gas. :)

Ah, right. If they are not affected, where they are? So Karras sacrificed them to apply his plan.

Keeper Gurgul
16th Jul 2009, 17:14
The only prerequisite for Haunts is the desecration of their graves, leading to possession of their corpses. We never see the graves of deceased Mechanists. They would likely just get cremated, so a Mech Haunt would probably be rare. A Neo-Mech Haunt, maybe, since they would have really unorthodox practices to keep the religion alive.


There could be a level based in the ruins of Soulforge, overgrown with vegetation and Pagan magic vines. As one of the users suggested, it could feature Karras' ghost, furious to see his beloved creations rusting and being slowly but irresistibly absorbed by the forest - as well as the Mechanist Haunts who were violently killed by the mob after their leader's plan was exposed to the public, and without proper burial were subsequently possesed.

Burrick
16th Jul 2009, 17:45
You didn't notice the ones soaking in the tanks, motionless and panting? Why would they need five corpses of the type Karras is asking Truart for (2 pagans, and a thief. As well as two servants who may or may not supposed to be a guttersnipe and a prostitute) if they couldn't actually test the masks on them, and a living human would do much more nicely? The Masked Servants are already made and figured out at this time. The room is labeled "Servant Shop" in DromEd, and there are masks (labeled "Lost City Mask") on steam-powered armatures for placement on faces, tanks for treating the Servants somehow, chemical distillation lab equipment, and a pit in the floor for more corpses. It's too strong an implication to be dismissed. The only things missing are the blue mummy wrappings, and the brass plating and helmet for the clothing.

Of course I did notice the ones in the tanks, maybe the mechs were testing if the servants are waterproof and therefore well sealed against the rust gas. no getting wet, no gas going through.

servant shop could mean anything, maybe they dispose of broken servants there - throwing the corpses down into the secret room, removing masks for recycling, reuse. If they fail the water test, they are dismantled and disposed.

Nothke
16th Jul 2009, 18:25
I just finished playing Thief 2, and I taught I know, but after the last cutscene, I don't really understand what rust gas is!? It apparently kills everything organic, but in the cutscene you see Garrett rubing, what looks like rust gas, between his fingers, and dosn't look harmfull at all. So...

Is Karras actually dead?

I would like to see Karras again, you could accidentally bash into him in an asylum, or prison cell going completely insane (Cragscleft perhaps, put out there by hammerites), he could just be like an easter egg, not actuall story character.

No mechanist servants should return, but you could just also bash into some accidentally, like an inactive robot, or that golden-child-that-pops-and-freaks-you-out. I mean, all of these servants listened to Karras' orders, and it would be really hard programming them back to someone elses orders. If I were a Hamerite after Soulforge sabotage, and found out about his plans, I would like to shut down all the machines forever, and not touch them! Despite all of you, I think its good they didn't make any appearance in TDS, because all Mech. machines would be banned.

Hamadriyad
16th Jul 2009, 19:12
I just finished playing Thief 2, and I taught I know, but after the last cutscene, I don't really understand what rust gas is!? It apparently kills everything organic, but in the cutscene you see Garrett rubing, what looks like rust gas, between his fingers, and dosn't look harmfull at all. So...

Is Karras actually dead?


Just after sabotage we leave soulforge.And we back there after rust gas finish its job and destroy all organics.Garrett is rubing rust gas after reaction in that cutscene.
And I think Karras is dead. Maybe we can see him as easter egg.(it would be nice.)
If I was a Hammerite and I saw Karras, I wouldn't put him in a jail. I would kill him.

kabatta
16th Jul 2009, 19:12
Nothke, if you would have paid attention to the first mechanist mission, easdropping, you would have known that the necrotic mutox deactivates in a short time after the chain matter consuming reaction. It leaves behind only harmless rust.
Doctor's orders: Get back there and play again. You don't want to miss the good stuff in thief. :P

Nothke
17th Jul 2009, 00:35
Nothke, if you would have paid attention to the first mechanist mission, easdropping, you would have known that the necrotic mutox deactivates in a short time after the chain matter consuming reaction. It leaves behind only harmless rust.
Doctor's orders: Get back there and play again. You don't want to miss the good stuff in thief. :P

hahaha, thank you DOCTOR! I will, looks like I didn't pay too much attention... I was looking not to get caught by a passing guard, and was like "yes, you are the man Karras, and you are a fool Truart for taking a deal, just finish it already!"

smalljil
17th Jul 2009, 11:44
Of course I did notice the ones in the tanks, maybe the mechs were testing if the servants are waterproof and therefore well sealed against the rust gas. no getting wet, no gas going through.

servant shop could mean anything, maybe they dispose of broken servants there - throwing the corpses down into the secret room, removing masks for recycling, reuse. If they fail the water test, they are dismantled and disposed.

i never did see it this ways - i also thought they were using the corpses - but i like the idea:thumb:

DarthEnder
17th Jul 2009, 12:43
I always forget something with the lists, especially off the top of my head. I coulda swore I quoted this not too long ago. Skipping over that is expected from the Coterie of the Comprehension-Challenged:




Who did the Mechanists cater to? WHO? The Nobility, right?

Home of The Wieldstrom Museum...


Or will the Coterie keep insisting the games are lying or that I'm somehow grossly misinterpreting plain English?


Here's more English for ya. You guys focused on the word "disbanded," rather than a Keeper writing about them in the past tense.

Who's holding onto the past instead of seeking something new?So now, rather than using one obscure readable to make your point, your using multiple unrelated ones and trying to make your point via the transitive property?

"Mechanists worked for the rich, the Wieldstrom Museum is in the rich neighborhood, there's nothing mechanist in the museum(unless of course you count thinks like, oh, I dunno, the LIGHTNING BARRIERS), therefore the Mechanists must all be dead!"

It's a ridiculous assumption.

kabatta
17th Jul 2009, 13:05
That tesla security system seems pretty far fetched. It does seem to have mechanist elements wich consolidates the fact that not all mechanist technology was discarded.

Herr_Garrett
18th Jul 2009, 06:15
How come the Gormeghast trilogy wasn't mentioned as a possible influence? A huge rambling castle the size of a city, most of it in ruins, full of mad people living their mad lives on and on, rarely meeting each other in those thousands of acres of stone...?

Burrick
19th Jul 2009, 12:35
Why do you think the flesh-hating Karras would keep the Servants' flesh from consumption (the biggest flaw with your fanon), and how do you think the mummy wrappings are a good material for sealing out rust-gas and needing to be wet (just give them the frogman diver suits), and how are the Servants supposed to all get soaked before the rust-gas rips through The City? The Servants themselves are fuel for the rust-gas effect! You could start to argue that they all take a dip in a bath as the first set of instructions Karras sends them, but the last cutscene never touches on that concept. A Servant is seen cleaning a greenhouse window, and then leaves for Soulforge. The Servants enter Soulforge and release the Necrotic Mutox.

You still don't need corpses, Mechanists wouldn't keep corpses around rather than dispose of them entirely, not make a pit in the floor for corpses, and failed corpses would be consumed by the rust-gas, and not just die. The body is mostly water and that doesn't stop the Rust-Gas from breaking up the organic material and desiccating the bodies completely. Water by itself would make a good barrier, if it was only water and thick enough to keep the mutox from reaching organic material before becoming inert.

If you use the in-game materials (all of it, not pieces and parts) and see the story in it's rich detail, and weren't given over to wishful thinking, you'd have stronger theories.

So no one here suspects any Frankenstein tech? Even though Frankenstein (Son of Frankenstein, specifically) is cited as an influence? The movie Metropolis was an even heavier influence, too.


there is no need to become aggressive ok?

maybe Karras did want the servants to be a version of men the Builder would like, maybe they needed to be rustgas proof in case his plans were discovered too early, maybe he wanted to use them as reusable weapons dunno. there are much possibilties. who said these were wrappings, maybe its only lamellae, furthers who knows whats beyond them. why not use frogsuits? maybe the nobles do prefer a more classy styled servant, not a diver suit chump. maybe they gather the corpses to make one big transport on a cart instead of 7 transports, thats time saving.

its not up to you, to judge my posts whether they are strong or not.

massimilianogoi
19th Jul 2009, 13:14
The Builder's Chalice as a weapon?? Then why they didn't used against the Trickster, or Karras? Or maybe Garrett too?

The Mechanists where in larger number than the Hammers, so let's see how the Hammers could proceed to a Trial without any previous war. Without counting al the combat robots spreaded by the city...

Yes, the Keepers wrote that they are disbanded, but they don't told how. Maybe the main parts of them rejoined the Hammers, and then started themselves the Trial of their own superiors (like Vylnia, Pheegan), who hides the real plan of Karras, or maybe only Karras know this plains, and the Trial was a farse. We have to know that the Mechs had from their side the whole city watch faction, plus nobles. So it should be difficult for the few remains of the Hammers to start a trial by their own.

Still, we have to think to all those Mechanists remained in the Markham Isle and in the Lost City where Cavador were, they could be not awared by how happened at Soulforge, or what were the real plain of Karras, so they could have kept intact their faith in Karras. In other way they could refuse their old city camarades since they merged again with the Hammers, and see them as heretical.

Thief 3 could be ambiented in a part of the town where the mechanist technology are not present.

Herr_Garrett
19th Jul 2009, 14:35
... or, precisely, that there couldn't have been as many Mechs as Hammers, is the fact that Karras relied on Truart to supply the subjects for his experiments. Now, with the Hammers, who are a serious force and political power, we can see that they can incarcerate anyone whom they wish, even against the magistrates' will - as shown in the newspaper article in DS.
The Mechs, apparently, can't do that. That implies that they had not much power politics- or society-wise.

Also, a conversation in Ambush! further causes me to think that there weren't many Mechs... "they wouldn't stand a chance against a real army", one guy says about their Bots and the Mechs themselves. I assume that the Bots because they are too weak, and the Mechs because they are too few.

massimilianogoi
19th Jul 2009, 16:06
... or, precisely, that there couldn't have been as many Mechs as Hammers, is the fact that Karras relied on Truart to supply the subjects for his experiments. Now, with the Hammers, who are a serious force and political power, we can see that they can incarcerate anyone whom they wish, even against the magistrates' will - as shown in the newspaper article in DS.
The Mechs, apparently, can't do that. That implies that they had not much power politics- or society-wise.

Also, a conversation in Ambush! further causes me to think that there weren't many Mechs... "they wouldn't stand a chance against a real army", one guy says about their Bots and the Mechs themselves. I assume that the Bots because they are too weak, and the Mechs because they are too few.

Never heard this. Anyway, why then the Hammers doesn't attack the heretics, just when they were formed? We all know all the heavy influences the Mechanists done in the City, and that surely wasn't pleasible for the Hammers, so why they didn't got rid of this problem previously, if they are stronger than the Mechs??

kabatta
19th Jul 2009, 16:25
When Karrass left the hammerite order, he took a lot of followers with him.

massimilianogoi
19th Jul 2009, 17:51
A lot?? I've seen just two or three guards turned into servants...

kabatta
19th Jul 2009, 17:55
That's because Karras in the big night of the releasing of rust gas disbanded all the order/ sent them away from soulforge. Those who you see in the last level were the ones he picked to stay with him. After all...the builder's children can't handle fine operations as well as a pair of human hands. *wink* *wink*
ps: jtr7 right here will come with the exact text. yup...i can see it coming. :D

massimilianogoi
19th Jul 2009, 20:00
Oh, sorry kabatta, I read wrong... ahhaahah

I read that when at Soulforge Karras left this world took alot of followers...

Too many study these days :p

massimilianogoi
19th Jul 2009, 23:59
I wouldst to have thee under my control, else dead! Indeed...I'd have had both.



Could you explicate me this phrase, please? To what referred Karras? And what he means for "Indeed...I'd have had both"?





Oh, and y'all should check this kind of cool stuff out. Dev questionnaire, by Daniel "Digital Nightfall" Todd:
http://www.ttlg.com/articles/t2interview/

Specifically: http://www.ttlg.com/articles/t2interview/4.html


There's lots of this stuff scattered about the 'Net.

What hits this with the Mechanists?

massimilianogoi
20th Jul 2009, 03:13
Karras tells GARRETT he wants Garrett under his control and dead. I ask if this means controlled and dead at the same time OR controlled first, dead second.

"else" in my translator means something like "otherwise", so Karras could want Garrett under this control, otherwise dead.


The questionnaire is to show some of the sources some of the devs borrowed from:
Frankenstein, Metropolis, things that influenced the devs. But if you don't think they are connected, this is bad for you, and I'm not going to bother breaking it down.

Two of the designers that made Eavesdropping were:
PRIMARY:
Rich Carlson, who cited Son of Frankenstein.
SECONDARY:
Emil Pagliarulo, who cited Metropolis.

Mere coincidence? Nothing special about that?

Yes yes, I've seen both the films, but I see not so many influences for the creation of the Mechanists.

Burrick
20th Jul 2009, 13:12
I wouldst to have thee under my control, else dead! Indeed...I'd have had both.


Message number two of six. {beep}
(Karras Greetings again, guests! I pray your spirits do not suffer from my absence. I present to each a gift: the most wondrous yet of my innovations, a living worker suited to all household tasks, ready always to perform your bidding. I call them the 'Servants.' The Servant knows not how to lead or gossip. The Servant knows only how to tirelessly perform thy will, be it cooking, cleaning, or gardening. Please accept them with my gratititude. But the tour continues. Pray, to follow Vilnia once again.

Message number three of six. {beep}
(Karras Lords and Ladies, behold the Builder's Chapel! It is here we reflect upon the Builder's great plan. The Servants I am giving thee are examples of our strivings toward his ideals. Before they were Servants, the souls behind the masks were lost and unproductive. Now they are models of efficiency. Alas, if only I could be there to share with thee the wonder of this moment! But I digress. On with the tour!

Message number four of six. {beep}
Karras: Privileged gue- Privileged gue- Privileged gue- Privileged gue- {scratch} Privileged guests, I trust thee will enjoy this feast presented by the Servants I have given you. Imagine! A short while ago, these Servants were confined to an asylum. Mentally feeble, they were of no use to anyone. Now they are safe and productive. Now they know happiness. Would that I could be with you tonight for the Servants make excellent cooks. After you dine, Friend Vilnia will guide thee on to the gallery.

Interesting but rather sounds like these quotas are supporting that the servants ain't dead. they seem more or less brainwashed or something like lobotomized. plus I can hardly see any similiarities to Frankenstein or Metropolis. There are no tesla apparatus within the mechanist buildings, the dont seem to do a lot with electricity , the robots and machines work with steam.

smalljil
20th Jul 2009, 14:51
wow pretty cool quotes burrick:thumb:

I always thought that the servants where undead... but it really seems that they are living people.:eek:

massimilianogoi
20th Jul 2009, 15:46
They are. Definitively.

HellionKal
20th Jul 2009, 15:53
If I'm not mistaken there is a small room outside the Mechanist Seminary in the "Eavesdropping" mission, in which there are a couple of corpses preserved in a vats-like thing and one more corpse lying on a slab while a machine that seems ready to put one of Karras' Servant Masks on it is hanging above...I always thought that they were more "Cyborg-like" than really Living or un-dead.

KittyCatAngel
20th Jul 2009, 16:02
If I'm not mistaken there is a small room outside the Mechanist Seminary in the "Eavesdropping" mission, in which there are a couple of corpses preserved in a vats-like thing and one more corpse lying on a slab while a machine that seems ready to put one of Karras' Servant Masks on it is hanging above...I always thought that they were more "Cyborg-like" than really Living or un-dead.

They're like voodoo zombies!

Alive bodies, but dead brains. BRAAAAAAINS.

What is wrong with me? 0_o But yeah, I kind of see them as a mixture of living and cybernetics, but it always sounds like they are laughing or crying, as though they can't control themselves? So perhaps just their bodies are being controlled and their minds are morbidly aware of it?

I DON'T KNOW!

massimilianogoi
20th Jul 2009, 20:12
If I'm not mistaken there is a small room outside the Mechanist Seminary in the "Eavesdropping" mission, in which there are a couple of corpses preserved in a vats-like thing and one more corpse lying on a slab while a machine that seems ready to put one of Karras' Servant Masks on it is hanging above...I always thought that they were more "Cyborg-like" than really Living or un-dead.

Those could be just experiments finished bad, or subjects dead within the transormation.

esme
21st Jul 2009, 10:39
If I'm not mistaken there is a small room outside the Mechanist Seminary in the "Eavesdropping" mission, in which there are a couple of corpses preserved in a vats-like thing and one more corpse lying on a slab while a machine that seems ready to put one of Karras' Servant Masks on it is hanging above...I always thought that they were more "Cyborg-like" than really Living or un-dead.
I seem to remember there is a secret chamber underneath that one full of dead peasants waiting for processing, there's some loot down there too ... if I have the right mission

massimilianogoi
21st Jul 2009, 14:34
Ah! Interesting thing!! Never seen this one.

kabatta
21st Jul 2009, 17:23
I seem to remember there is a secret chamber underneath that one full of dead peasants waiting for processing, there's some loot down there too ... if I have the right mission

If I'm not mistaken there should be a smal bag of gold and a ring/ only a ring in the patched version.

esme
21st Jul 2009, 17:37
Ah! Interesting thing!! Never seen this one.

it's in the room with this guy

http://www.boxtechnic.com/thief/lab.png

and if you absolutely must see it before you play click this link labsecret.png (http://www.boxtechnic.com/thief/labsecret.png)

however I'll leave the small exercise of how you find it to yourself

kabatta
21st Jul 2009, 18:35
I don't want to alarm anyone, but it contains the bow upgrade. ;)

massimilianogoi
21st Jul 2009, 20:53
Kabatta, I have to ask you to spoil game details...

massimilianogoi
10th Sep 2009, 13:03
This is nearly how the Mechanists should should appear on Thief 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnm55N9opEI

Take inspiration, developers! :)

Voodoo
10th Sep 2009, 17:13
jtr7 you speak truth again

Herr_Garrett
10th Sep 2009, 18:58
jtr7 you speak truth again

'Tis rare when he doeth not.

Hamadriyad
25th May 2010, 19:57
I was thinking about a new faction and an idea came to me. Maybe a crime organization become organize. They may spread fear amongst people. (not like thieves guild, more like mafia) But then, we have already city wardens,but people don't know that. Let the people know what happens in the City and see what will happen. Murders, chaos. I don't know. Just an idea.

Namdrol
25th May 2010, 20:14
Yes, I think the City Wardens and or some criminal gang formed from ex keepers are prime candidates to be protagonists in the next game.
Although my personal wish would be to see more of the necromancers/mages and the Baron

massimilianogoi
9th Nov 2010, 08:39
Interesting but rather sounds like these quotas are supporting that the servants ain't dead. they seem more or less brainwashed or something like lobotomized. plus I can hardly see any similiarities to Frankenstein or Metropolis. There are no tesla apparatus within the mechanist buildings, the dont seem to do a lot with electricity , the robots and machines work with steam.

Didn't you take a close look at the Angelwatch building, didn't you?..

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/556/angelwatch.th.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/angelwatch.jpg/)

This seems in all respects a mast to me. It could be a mast, and as it's installed here, it could be also installed over Soulforge.


They're like voodoo zombies!

Alive bodies, but dead brains. BRAAAAAAINS.

What is wrong with me? 0_o But yeah, I kind of see them as a mixture of living and cybernetics, but it always sounds like they are laughing or crying, as though they can't control themselves? So perhaps just their bodies are being controlled and their minds are morbidly aware of it?

I DON'T KNOW!

You got it. This could be the nearest eplanation to the truth: their bodies are being controlled and their minds are aware of it, but the can't do anything about.

Hypevosa
9th Nov 2010, 09:42
A big metal ship with one of angelwatch's angels as its manatee (not mast) would be pretty awesome to me.

massimilianogoi
9th Nov 2010, 10:13
A big metal ship with one of angelwatch's angels as its manatee (not mast) would be pretty awesome to me.

Manatee?? ROTFL

http://www.google.it/images?hl=it&source=imghp&biw=1660&bih=864&q=manatee&btnG=Cerca+immagini&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Anyway, I've understood what you mean. You mean the figure beyond the ship's face. It should be nice, yes.

Hypevosa
9th Nov 2010, 14:31
Hmm, I remember someone informing me they were called manatees at one time or another.

The internet, however, calls them figure-heads.

Internet trumps in my book.

massimilianogoi
10th Nov 2010, 00:14
Internet is BETTER than books ;) It's vox populis, than is almost always the truth.

maikaal
11th Nov 2010, 11:59
I hated Mechanists and I probably would pass Thief 4 if it had them in it. Robots in medieval setting, even if it's pseudo medieval? come on! I was never for realism in games, but this is just too much - even now in modern times we don't have fully functional humanoid robots. They spoiled the atmosphere in T2, together with bad level design, and T2 stands as my second biggest disappointment in gaming, after Mafia 2.

TheWoodsieLord
11th Nov 2010, 12:47
The robots don't belong in Thief... But I didn't hate them half as much as I hated the cameras. They're just plain stupid.

massimilianogoi
11th Nov 2010, 13:02
Medieval settings?? Do you have a kinfd of idea of what STEAMPUNK is????? Apparently not... Bad level design... buhauhuhauhauhauaua I can't hold anymore.

Thief 2 is alot better in design than that horrible Thief 1, with triagular-footed-handed men, empty rooms, and 256 colours awful textures. Thief 1 neither supports the mousewheel and the quicksave, it's alot more boring than Thief 2.

Hypevosa
11th Nov 2010, 13:19
You do realize thief is supposed to be steam punk not medieval... right? Even the first game had tons of machinery in it that littered the city streets. The first game also had cameras in it (in crags cleft, though there were only 2). There was no machinery or controlled electricity of any sort in medieval times.

I didn't find the robots to clash with the environment, mainly since the ROBOTS were done correctly. They were huge, had a boiler and a steam stack coming out of them. They were buggy at best, and very clunky as I would expect from a new technology.

The servants were not robots - they were dead people. Karras somehow found a means of using his technology and programming to make them work again.

I'm not entirely sure if the cheribs were children or robots, though I'm inclined to believe robots based on how they look more like a small C3PO than anything. There's a reason there was only one of them though (2 if you believe the one in soulforge and angelwatch were different). They were likely Karras' life work.

TMA did have fewer fantastic environments though - I did like the fantastic environments from TGold.

TheWoodsieLord
11th Nov 2010, 13:27
Medieval settings?? Do you have a kinfd of idea of what STEAMPUNK is????? Apparently not... Bad level design... buhauhuhauhauhauaua I can't hold anymore.

Thief 2 is alot better in design than that horrible Thief 1, with triagular-footed-handed men, empty rooms, and 256 colours awful textures. Thief 1 neither supports the mousewheel and the quicksave, it's alot more boring than Thief 2.

So you think that the graphics are what makes TMA superior to TDP?

Thief is a pseudo-medieval steampunk fantasy... and in TMA it was way too advanced, and in TDS it was way too medieval. TDP balanced it perfectly.

JFSOCC
11th Nov 2010, 14:05
Robots and Cameras felt more like cyberpunk than steampunk, so on that front, I'm with thewoodsielord

I dislike Robots for the same reason that I dislike zombies, and to some extent monsters.

I feel that humans are perfectly capable of fitting the bill of enemies and other villainous roles, in fact, I feel that humans can fill the entire spectrum of characters in any game. We're a diverse bunch, we have people we consider near superhuman, and slobs we consider to be nothing more than a joke.
Zombies and robots don;t need good writing as to what their motivation or purpose is, and that makes them weak characters by definition. They are cookie cutter enemies to populate an area, for those writers that are too lazy or otherwise unwilling to flesh out something better. There's a reason people love Benny, and it isn;t because he's a mute guard that attacks you when he sees you. I felt sorry for Blackjacking Benny one time, I have never felt sorry for killing off a robot or a zombie.

maikaal
11th Nov 2010, 14:43
You do realize thief is supposed to be steam punk not medieval... right?

You do realize that I was saying that Thief has a pseudo-medieval setting, not medieval setting... right?

Anyway, I don't care how it is called, steam punk or cyber punk, if it doesn't work - it doesn't work. If it works for you - good for you. I'm happy that there are people like TheWoodsieLord who know what a good level design is and that robots and cameras are absolutely out of place in a pseudo-medieval stelth game.

TheWoodsieLord
11th Nov 2010, 15:50
Robots and Cameras felt more like cyberpunk than steampunk, so on that front, I'm with thewoodsielord

I dislike Robots for the same reason that I dislike zombies, and to some extent monsters.

I feel that humans are perfectly capable of fitting the bill of enemies and other villainous roles, in fact, I feel that humans can fill the entire spectrum of characters in any game. We're a diverse bunch, we have people we consider near superhuman, and slobs we consider to be nothing more than a joke.
Zombies and robots don;t need good writing as to what their motivation or purpose is, and that makes them weak characters by definition. They are cookie cutter enemies to populate an area, for those writers that are too lazy or otherwise unwilling to flesh out something better. There's a reason people love Benny, and it isn;t because he's a mute guard that attacks you when he sees you. I felt sorry for Blackjacking Benny one time, I have never felt sorry for killing off a robot or a zombie.

The only zombies that I liked were the ones in the cradle, as they seemed to have had some sort of personality, you could find out about them by reading the various scraps of paper found throughout the level.

I didn't like the monsters either... feels wrong sneaking past an animal - because they can smell you (in real life)! For example, I think that the Lost city would have been a lot nicer if it was populated by massively inbred leftovers of the original survivors.

Hypevosa
11th Nov 2010, 20:32
So you all want the steampunk element to be a background piece and never play in the forefront of the series? That's what TDP had - steampunk technology that was all just background pieces and magic playing around in the forefront. In TMA the opposite was true - magic was put on the backburner and steampunk tech took the forefront. It also went in line with the power being in the pagans hands in the first game and power being in civilization's (mechanist's) hands in the second. In the third they each played an equal roll (or closer to equal than in either previous game). Each game actually followed the narrative in this respect, the balance of power being thrown with Garrett's actions, and then finally when all power was destroyed the Keepers were the only ones left with too much... and the most prominent element in that game was the Glyph magic.

We haven't really been describing it correctly either. Thief is a Medieval-Steampunk-Fantasy world. Usually all 3 elements aren't mixed together. While medieval and fantasy usually go together, steampunk is usually set in the viktorian period. You could even see when you looked at the setting in TMA there was much more Viktorian than in TDP.

So you both want medieval fantasy to be more prominent, and feel TMA went too far into the steampunk aspect of the thief universe.

The 4th game has the unusual position of not being able to follow the old narrative's direction. If I had to guess, I'd say the next natural direction would be to go for the social powers and go with the nobles/baron, etc. Fantasy and steampunk either playing no role, or at least an equal one.

TheWoodsieLord
11th Nov 2010, 21:37
So you all want the steampunk element to be a background piece and never play in the forefront of the series? That's what TDP had - steampunk technology that was all just background pieces and magic playing around in the forefront. In TMA the opposite was true - magic was put on the backburner and steampunk tech took the forefront. It also went in line with the power being in the pagans hands in the first game and power being in civilization's (mechanist's) hands in the second. In the third they each played an equal roll (or closer to equal than in either previous game). Each game actually followed the narrative in this respect, the balance of power being thrown with Garrett's actions, and then finally when all power was destroyed the Keepers were the only ones left with too much... and the most prominent element in that game was the Glyph magic.

We haven't really been describing it correctly either. Thief is a Medieval-Steampunk-Fantasy world. Usually all 3 elements aren't mixed together. While medieval and fantasy usually go together, steampunk is usually set in the viktorian period. You could even see when you looked at the setting in TMA there was much more Viktorian than in TDP.

So you both want medieval fantasy to be more prominent, and feel TMA went too far into the steampunk aspect of the thief universe.

The 4th game has the unusual position of not being able to follow the old narrative's direction. If I had to guess, I'd say the next natural direction would be to go for the social powers and go with the nobles/baron, etc. Fantasy and steampunk either playing no role, or at least an equal one.

I feel that the Pagans are actually the ones with most power again. The fall of the Mechanists strenghtened them, and caused a general distrust towards advanced tech in general (thus the much less present machienery in TDS). I don't think that Pagans were powerful enough to have an open base in the middle of Auldale even during the time the Trickster was alive.

Silentbutdeadly
15th Nov 2010, 13:23
I think it'd be a massive shame not to use the Mechanist ideas in some form again as their inventions brought excellent gameplay devices to the series. Bearing this in mind, I'm wracking my brain to think of possible ways to reinclude them despite Karras' almost certain death and the Hammerite Inquistion. The options I can come up with are:::

a_ Have some Mechanists survive and due to the weakened powers of the Hammers and Pagans (and Keepers) they are able to open legit 'Device' businesses selling security to the nobles etc

b_ Have some Mechanists flee to another city/area (like the Hidden City) to avoid the inquisition and have Garrett somehow end up there too (maybe just for a mission)

c_ Set it as a prequel of TDP with the rise of the Mechanists only just starting. This could have a young Garrett with slightly lesser abilities to start with (eg hand deployed moss/water rather than bow) breaking into some fledgling inventors within the Hammers, doing something or other to hold-back the advance of the tech (which would enable devices of a similar ability to the ones in TMA up until that point)

d_Have some magix involved to replicate alarms and sentries although I don't know where the off-switch/boiler would be.

I must say I never played TDS so not sure what will and won't fit into the story paths laid down in that game - but my favourite of my options are A and C. A could be tied into having a new faction consisting of a Mafia type group of organised criminals possibly hiring some retired Mechanists to make them devices in exchange for protection.

massimilianogoi
15th Nov 2010, 14:53
Good ideas!!

For the c: remember that the Mechanists formed themselves as a consequence of the Trickster's troups invasion at the Hammerite Temple.

Platinumoxicity
15th Nov 2010, 15:23
I don't think that Pagans were powerful enough to have an open base in the middle of Auldale even during the time the Trickster was alive.

Nor would they ever want to. Pagans despise manfools' buildings, bricks and metals. They wouldn't set foot in the City unless they had no choice. They live happily isolated out of sight in the woods and the countrysides.

TheWoodsieLord
15th Nov 2010, 17:19
Nor would they ever want to. Pagans despise manfools' buildings, bricks and metals. They wouldn't set foot in the City unless they had no choice. They live happily isolated out of sight in the woods and the countrysides.

But still, they do have bases inside the city, in Auldale, South quarter and the docks. And the guard obviously isn't able to remove them from any of those places, meaning they are of considerable power and/or influence.

And let's not forget that Woodsie himself lived in a manor, albeit a twisted one.

Platinumoxicity
15th Nov 2010, 18:03
But still, they do have bases inside the city, in Auldale, South quarter and the docks. And the guard obviously isn't able to remove them from any of those places, meaning they are of considerable power and/or influence.

I think (this is my own speculation) that they only existed inside the City because the developers wanted to implement a half-assed faction system and the main factions of the Thief universe are the Hammers and the Pagans. The Pagans in Thief 1 were nowhere to be found in the City, because they lived in the woods like the village in T2. In Thief 2 they had deployed agents to spy on their new enemy, the Mechanists. But there were no settlements of Pagans in the City because the manfools "builds their houses of dead stone and their roofs of dead wood". In TDS there were Pagans in the City because the devs wanted 2 opposing teams, both located inside the City because the open world wasn't large enough to allow the player to enter the wilderness. Why would the Pagans take part in such a huge hypocricy as to live inside buildings that they despise so much? I think the addition of Pagan settlements in manfool city areas in TDS is just as non-canon as the sudden removal of rope arrows and Garrett's sudden inability to swim.

But that's just my opinion.

In the original artworks of Deadly Shadows, pagan people were depicted in vast forest areas and their little clay huts with straw roofs were situated in gloomy swamps. Those locations were apparently cut from the final version when they decided to go with the open world structure. They combined the mood of the original designs with the environment of derelict city structures, and the only thing left from the original concepts was the color scheme of dark blue and ghostly green.

massimilianogoi
15th Nov 2010, 22:31
... I think the addition of Pagan settlements in manfool city areas in TDS is just as non-canon as the sudden removal of rope arrows and Garrett's sudden inability to swim.

But that's just my opinion.

...

"Non ci siamo, ragazzi..." http://randagi.altervista.org/ipb/style_emoticons/default/nono.gif The Pagans invaded the city, in TDS, because they wanted to destroy the buildings, the walls and everything made by stone and metal. It's clear that you don't know well the story.

DOCdyanletter.sch:

...have enchanting your bow, so you cans do us these favors. First, bes many cornerstones in them city that we have readied for you to make greening. You bes will know which cornerstones because they have greensy markings. Use your mossing arrows on them, then our magicer vines bes will grow there...

The vines were meant to destroy the walls of the buildings.

OQburiedseedletter.sch:


Brother Severence- Tis gone from bad to worse! We managed to bury the body - finally! But the graveyard hast become quite o'ergrown with plants of all types. No manner of ax nor blade can halt their unnatural growth. We fear 'tis Pagan magics. But we know not how they accomplished it! Do please advise us, if thou hast any idea how to proceed. Most vexedly, Brother Archibald

SM3paganreport.sch:


The Pagan Situation By Keeper Tallo

The Pagans have begun to infiltrate into more areas, using decaying infrastructure to mask their presence. They now have sanctuaries in almost every district. Dyan, their high priestess, was the successor to the Pagan leadership after the wood nymph Viktoria was desiccated. Dyan's is often seen with a staff, although it has not been available for study. Her commander, Larkspur, is aggressive and dangerous. The two control a large number of Shamans who invoke the powers of plants both to hurt and to heal. I believe the Pagans are able to accelerate plant growth such that it could rapidly culminate in a great imbalance. Recommend further observation.

Silentbutdeadly
17th Nov 2010, 00:17
Good ideas!!

For the c: remember that the Mechanists formed themselves as a consequence of the Trickster's troups invasion at the Hammerite Temple.

Its been a few years since I played T1 :D - would in between 1 and 2 work?

Platinumoxicity
17th Nov 2010, 05:25
Quotes from TDS

Exactly. That kind of pagans do not exist in the other 2 games. The pagans in Thief 2 didn't like the City so they stayed away from it. The pagans in TDS didn't like the City so they moved in and wanted to destroy it from around them. That development was as well explained as the complete absence of any traces of the mechanists. The pagans in TDS even speak differently than the ones in T2. With all the "bees" and stuff. :)

massimilianogoi
17th Nov 2010, 08:57
Its been a few years since I played T1 :D - would in between 1 and 2 work?

No, it's one of the latest T1 missions. Check @ thief.wikia "Strange Bedfellows".


Exactly. That kind of pagans do not exist in the other 2 games. The pagans in Thief 2 didn't like the City so they stayed away from it. The pagans in TDS didn't like the City so they moved in and wanted to destroy it from around them. That development was as well explained as the complete absence of any traces of the mechanists. The pagans in TDS even speak differently than the ones in T2. With all the "bees" and stuff. :)

That Pagans were always the same, they just decided to arm themselves (while before they were pacific) and solve their question with weapons, you forget that tens and tens of them, women and children included, were slaughtered by the Mechanists.

Platinumoxicity
17th Nov 2010, 18:05
That Pagans were always the same, they just decided to arm themselves (while before they were pacific) and solve their question with weapons, you forget that tens and tens of them, women and children included, were slaughtered by the Mechanists.

So, after a holocaust when their numbers were the lowest, and both their higher leaders were dead, they decided to attack instead of fallong back and regaining their strength?

...and according to Pagan beliefs does the Earth appreciate people taking it's stones and smelting them to blades to take lives?

okay I'm not going there. They're religious nuts. Trying to point out flaws in their logic and inconsistencies in the way they practice or fail to practice their preachings is like telling water not to be wet. :D

TheWoodsieLord
17th Nov 2010, 18:40
So, after a holocaust when their numbers were the lowest, and both their higher leaders were dead, they decided to attack instead of fallong back and regaining their strength?

...and according to Pagan beliefs does the Earth appreciate people taking it's stones and smelting them to blades to take lives?

okay I'm not going there. They're religious nuts. Trying to point out flaws in their logic and inconsistencies in the way they practice or fail to practice their preachings is like telling water not to be wet. :D

Wouldn't call it a holocaust, more of an invasion, and since Truart's influence helped Karras almost completely exterminate almost all pagan sympathisers inside the city, and those in the woods were attacked by the mechanists themselves, they were forced to become more agressive or to become extinct.

Also, let's not forget that people started trusting technology less since the fall of Karras (hence the less apparent tech in DS), and the Hammer popularity and influence also recieved a hit.

massimilianogoi
17th Nov 2010, 22:06
Wouldn't call it a holocaust, more of an invasion, and since Truart's influence helped Karras almost completely exterminate almost all pagan sympathisers inside the city, and those in the woods were attacked by the mechanists themselves, they were forced to become more agressive or to become extinct.


Agreed.

MILO1985
20th Nov 2010, 02:41
I just don't get the point of hammerites in theif 3, mechanists are the natural step of evolution for hammerites, they designed robots, motion sensors submarines, and then they go back to wood and nails ?

Also I don't get the jump in technology, they just discovered elictricity, then all of a sudden they make bionic eye camera implants.

Voodoo
20th Nov 2010, 13:25
LOL yeah the good ol' mechanists those bastards I didnt like them much. But they did have superior technology and changed the world of thief I dont think they should have entirely disapeared there should be remnants of their existence.

pall
20th Nov 2010, 13:33
Elektricity was know from long time, 50 years before TDP, maybe even longer. World of thief is steampunk-fantasy setting where both powerful magic and technology exist. Garrett eye is probably some king of steampunk small camera like gadget sending images intro his brain via optic nerve, since if i recall correctly, Victoria only ripped out his normal eye without optic nerve.

Ps:since i;m from not english country, please forgive me any langue errors.

glyph07
20th Nov 2010, 16:43
I think (this is my own speculation) that they only existed inside the City because the developers wanted to implement a half-assed faction system and the main factions of the Thief universe are the Hammers and the Pagans. The Pagans in Thief 1 were nowhere to be found in the City, because they lived in the woods like the village in T2. In Thief 2 they had deployed agents to spy on their new enemy, the Mechanists. But there were no settlements of Pagans in the City because the manfools "builds their houses of dead stone and their roofs of dead wood". In TDS there were Pagans in the City because the devs wanted 2 opposing teams, both located inside the City because the open world wasn't large enough to allow the player to enter the wilderness. Why would the Pagans take part in such a huge hypocricy as to live inside buildings that they despise so much? I think the addition of Pagan settlements in manfool city areas in TDS is just as non-canon as the sudden removal of rope arrows and Garrett's sudden inability to swim.

But that's just my opinion. (...)

I totally agree with you, and as for the counter reply that the Pagans wanted to invade the City to destroy it, in TDS we don't have anything substantial related to their presumed attempts. In TDS the Pagans takes action in response to Garrett's decision to obliged their request and as long as the games develops an absurd chaos of Pagans against Hammerites against the City Watch etc...happens, and despite some places of the City under the control of the Pagans, well, they were so under control that it was very easy to pass trough them.

massimilianogoi
20th Nov 2010, 17:05
When Garret visits the Pagan Sanctuary to steal the Jacknall's pawn, he sees that there are Pagans who are training themselves with weapons, then he exclaims "So, the Pagans are preparing for a war!", hence they surely haven't good intentions towards the City. And there's more: in Old Quarter, near the sewer, we find a pagan that wrote a note: he's doing some necromancy to resume the corps inside the Fort Ironwood, and surely it's not just to kill hammerites... they wanted to destroy the City and create the chaos between it.

TheWoodsieLord
20th Nov 2010, 19:32
When Garret visits the Pagan Sanctuary to steal the Jacknall's pawn, he sees that there are Pagans who are training themselves with weapons, then he exclaims "So, the Pagans are preparing for a war!", hence they surely haven't good intentions towards the City. And there's more: in Old Quarter, near the sewer, we find a pagan that wrote a note: he's doing some necromancy to resume the corps inside the Fort Ironwood, and surely it's not just to kill hammerites... they wanted to destroy the City and create the chaos between it.

The pagan necromancer in the old quarter sewer has revived the corpses in order to prevent the Hammerites from burying his friend, who was a pagan sympathiser, obviously, in a Hammer graveyard. He wanted to shoot a cornerstone there with a moss arrow (which would make the land "suitable" for a pagan's burial), but the Hammers would see him, so he raised the dead in order to give himself more time to find a solution. Garrett can solve the problem either by stealing the Pagan's wand or by shooting the cornerstone at the graveyard.

I think that the pagans have taken a more "popular" approach (to use their newfound popularity in the city and distrust towards technology when the people learned of Karras's plot). This might also be a result of the fact that the Pagans are now lead by humans (Dyan and Larkspur), while, in the past, their leaders were mythical creatures (Woodsie and Viktoria).

Platinumoxicity
20th Nov 2010, 20:13
...or maybe the devs at Ion Storm just messed things up? They needed to homogenize the factions because developing 2 groups so vastly different in a simple game like TDS would've been too hard. The original pagans were infiltrators, spies and guerrillas. Some of them weren't even human. They needed to move the pagans from the forests to the City to get 2 matching opponents. They had to make the subtle spies and infiltrators, the pagans and their beast friends into just plain human warriors like the Hammers are, because making 2 different sets of AI was too much to ask. All this... just to get a barely working faction system. Ion Storm ruined the contrast between the factions and reduced them into these Red vs Green, two identical groups fighting an all-out war, for the sake of fighting the war.

Faction vs Faction used to be interesting. In Thief 2 there was a Nazi-like party with insane ideals doing ethnic cleansing with formidable efficiency, and there was a quiet resistance group of covert operatives of the other side waiting for a chance to strike back from the shadows. In TDS there was Red vs Green. And it was trivial anyway since the whole game was about the keepers and their own squabblings inside the order. What on earth was the point of the faction system in TDS?

massimilianogoi
21st Nov 2010, 09:17
...or maybe the devs at Ion Storm just messed things up? They needed to homogenize the factions because developing 2 groups so vastly different in a simple game like TDS would've been too hard. The original pagans were infiltrators, spies and guerrillas. Some of them weren't even human. They needed to move the pagans from the forests to the City to get 2 matching opponents. They had to make the subtle spies and infiltrators, the pagans and their beast friends into just plain human warriors like the Hammers are, because making 2 different sets of AI was too much to ask. All this... just to get a barely working faction system. Ion Storm ruined the contrast between the factions and reduced them into these Red vs Green, two identical groups fighting an all-out war, for the sake of fighting the war.

What the heck are you saying??

These are all the AIs that Ion Storm, except for the Mechanists, that is work of mine:

http://i54.tinypic.com/xf44yb.jpg

MUCH MORE than two AIs... I don't like at all the way you talk about Ion Storm... they made a great work, the best of the previous chapters. I fell in love of Thief just for TDS, and then I played the other two games, and alot of fan missions, but my preferred remains always TDS, just because of its quality, both in graphic and in music, and the playing is anything but basic...

I hope Eidos Montreal will follow the TDS path, except for the lack of swimming/rope arrow/decend ladder-climbing/few decend Garrett's motion.

Platinumoxicity
21st Nov 2010, 09:36
MUCH MORE than two AIs... I don't like at all the way you talk about Ion Storm... they made a great work, the best of the previous chapters..

No, there's one AI when you look at the whole system in a wider spectrum.

I'm saying that Hammerites could have been standard AI but pagan agents would have needed to have an entirely different behavior to appear like the covert agents they were supposed to be. Unlike any AI seen in TDS. The AI system in TDS was already pretty obsolete, all the actions of anyone could be easily predicted, even if the AI in question wasn't even human. For example, the pagan agents should've been stealthy and with advanced tactics such as luring pursuing forces to an ambush where others in hiding could take out an otherwise too large opposing force. These kinds of different AI I expected from at least the Keeper Assassins, and they couldn't even do telepathic communication between AIs right. You have to admit, there was no variety in the AI in TDS other than what types of weaponry can be used to defeat each type.

And I'm not saying that Thief 1 and 2 were better. I'm saying that IS took a shortcut in TDS by forcing the faction system to the release and homogenizing the 2 opposing teams. This created a continuity in the story that would make reverting to the original concepts a retcon, and some people would rather not have a game at all than have one retcon in it.

(although one could say that TDS owes T4 that retcon because the way they changed the pagans for TDS was a retcon itself.)

Hypevosa
21st Nov 2010, 09:43
But how diversely do the AI's actually act? The point wasn't that there actually was a single AI file, so much as all the AI are so homogeneous that they might as well share one. The point was that they made 2 factions act basically the same except for the skin they wore where they were previously very different in their tactics.

I can rename the same file forty times and it's still the same file. I can make a little change here or there, but it will still appear exactly the same unless I work hard to make it different. Ion storm didn't work hard to make them different, probably because they didn't have the time since they got ****ed over trying to fix or work around a faulty engine. That engine is the source of nearly all of the woes we can associate with TDS (except for art direction for those of us who don't like the blueness). It sucked up all their time trying to just get a game to ship on time that was at least passable, and that's a shame.

We all know it isn't really Ion Storm's fault so much as whoever that damned programmer was who made their engine... or the idiot who decided to fire the engine designer who might have been able to fix alot of it if he'd been given the time to.

Do we even know why the engine guy got kicked off the team before the game was finished?

Asadar
21st Nov 2010, 10:01
We all know it isn't really Ion Storm's fault so much as whoever that damned programmer was who made their engine...

I think the guys from Ion Storm were doing their job, and the programmer was doing his one too. In my opinion we can't blame them for that. But I think the true problem was the commercial decisions: I regret that it is the commercial constraints that have ruined their work and I think that's the reason why we have a game reduced to a nice game, certainly, but nowhere near as good as it could be if they had not a commercial leash around the neck. Person(s) who designed the game engine do have to respond to a request, that's their job. The problem is that the personn who asked for this engine, has probably done without much consideration of the needs of the development team, for a sake of speed and efficiency.
Like many things in TDS, I think the factions have been victims of the limited time and resources left to the development team. And I think they had to be the first disappointed by the result, because there is a severe lack of freedom of development in TDS, and it shows. What I reproaches to TDS in short, this is not the game itself, but the will which was due: to make a game, not to be a game, but to be a quick salable product. :(

massimilianogoi
21st Nov 2010, 10:38
No, there's one AI when you look at the whole system in a wider spectrum.

What??? This is completely wrong... But try to explicate it better, so I can understand what you mean... Maybe you mean just one kind of skeletal animations?


But how diversely do the AI's actually act? The point wasn't that there actually was a single AI file, so much as all the AI are so homogeneous that they might as well share one. The point was that they made 2 factions act basically the same except for the skin they wore where they were previously very different in their tactics.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2ykgqx3.jpg

... And this is just a skin change, for you?

pall
21st Nov 2010, 13:16
Err... why the taff pagan warrior is so tall?

Asadar
21st Nov 2010, 14:24
I asked myself the same question. :D

massimilianogoi
21st Nov 2010, 15:57
Calculate that an average female is around 170 tall, then that Hammerite though guard will be near 180; made the correct proportions with that Pagan, he would be around 2,30 meters!! He's a giant, indeed!

http://i51.tinypic.com/24l8m4w.jpg

glyph07
21st Nov 2010, 16:31
When Garret visits the Pagan Sanctuary to steal the Jacknall's pawn, he sees that there are Pagans who are training themselves with weapons, then he exclaims "So, the Pagans are preparing for a war!", hence they surely haven't good intentions towards the City. And there's more: in Old Quarter, near the sewer, we find a pagan that wrote a note: he's doing some necromancy to resume the corps inside the Fort Ironwood, and surely it's not just to kill hammerites... they wanted to destroy the City and create the chaos between it.

All hints of nothing never well developed or properly explained but left to the players interpretations and deductions. No good.

Platinumoxicity
21st Nov 2010, 22:02
What??? This is completely wrong... But try to explicate it better, so I can understand what you mean... Maybe you mean just one kind of skeletal animations?


What I mean is this.. What does every hostile AI in Thief do in the game world when idle? They patrol or stand guard. They walk around in their familiar environment happily. All of them. Animations are different but the functions are not. What would a pagan agent do in a hostile environement like The City? They would probably sneak from shadow to shadow or use the rooftops like Garrett. And they would be much more alert than Hammerites that are casually patrolling their familiar neighborhoods.

What does every hostile AI in Thief do when they go to combat mode? They attack, and make a racket so that their friends will come to aid them. They charge straight on. A different type of AI would run and hide, and ambush a pursuing more powerful opponent in cooperation with a few friends that they signal with secret audio signals (like birdcalls).

Every enemy in Thief always follows the same plan. They guard, patrol, search, attack or flee. And all of these functions are the same, except attacks are either melee or ranged. That's what I meant with one type of AI. Be it an Iron Beast, a City Watch archer or a fire elemental, they act the same way. I expected Puppets in the Cradle to be these super ghouls that are more intelligent predators than brainless zombies, but they were just guards in jumpsuits and steel wire, twitching, and with half of their dialog deleted and the rest replaced with hissing.

But game AI has come a long way from TDS. (Or one could say from Thief 2 since at least in that game the AI had memory.) Some of the most engaging gameplay moments have come to me in F.E.A.R, where these creepy ninja soldiers would hit you, run away super fast and sit in the ceiling next room waiting for you to walk in so that they could scare your socks off by jumping on you. Or those red-eyed ghost zombies that would sneak up behind you, hit you and run away again. They would sit waiting for you to do one mistake. If you'd turn your back for a second they'd be chewing your arse off. If you'd back yourself into a corner they would stay back and just wait for you to move away from a well-defendable position. Thief needs AI that's not so vulnerable to Garrett's expertese at hiding. Someone or something needs to at least try to sneak up on Garrett some day. :)

Voodoo
21st Nov 2010, 23:50
lol someone sneak up on Garrett never lol although I think Artemis did that a few times or am I wrong??

massimilianogoi
22nd Nov 2010, 02:44
What I mean is this.. What does every hostile AI in Thief do in the game world when idle? They patrol or stand guard. They walk around in their familiar environment happily. All of them. Animations are different but the functions are not. What would a pagan agent do in a hostile environement like The City? They would probably sneak from shadow to shadow or use the rooftops like Garrett. And they would be much more alert than Hammerites that are casually patrolling their familiar neighborhoods.

What does every hostile AI in Thief do when they go to combat mode? They attack, and make a racket so that their friends will come to aid them. They charge straight on. A different type of AI would run and hide, and ambush a pursuing more powerful opponent in cooperation with a few friends that they signal with secret audio signals (like birdcalls).

Yes, but also Thief 1 and Thief 2 made this, while you mentioned directly TDS, discrediting it.


But game AI has come a long way from TDS. (Or one could say from Thief 2 since at least in that game the AI had memory.)

"at least" you said?... As if TDS didn't have this... Guards and other AIs remembers if they has seen an enemy previously in Thief: Deadly Shadows too.

Platinumoxicity
22nd Nov 2010, 07:35
Yes, but also Thief 1 and Thief 2 made this, while you mentioned directly TDS, discrediting it.

Yes the AI in Thief 1 and 2 was almost the same. But that doesn't cahnge the fact that Ion Storm did nothing to improve, or diversify it. In fact they made it worse. (See the memory problem and their lack of stamina, plus the lack of a swordfighting system) And the addition of the faction system created a false contituity in the series where the Hammerites and the Pagans were made so similar compared to eachother that they became this trivial, uninteresting fight between 2 irrelevant forces in a perpetuated war that had nothing to do with the story.





"at least" you said?... As if TDS didn't have this... Guards and other AIs remembers if they has seen an enemy previously in Thief: Deadly Shadows too.

No, they don't. Their dialogue might change from "WTF" to "Ahaa there you are" but their behavior won't change to being more careful. In the originals a guard that had pursued you earlier became much more aware and basically jumped at shadows. In TDS they behaved like nothing had ever happened. They still would think that the noise they heard was rats.

massimilianogoi
22nd Nov 2010, 12:06
...(See the memory problem and their lack of stamina, plus the lack of a swordfighting system)...

??? o_O

1-) Lack of stamina?

2-) Lack of a swordfighting system? That is?

huzi73
22nd Nov 2010, 13:03
??? o_O

1-) Lack of stamina?

2-) Lack of a swordfighting system? That is?

Jeez, dude, stop trying to defend an invalid arguament! Platinum's 100% correct, as far as I remember, the guards in T1/2 were way more proficient with their swordplay. The guards in TDS seemed like thugs rather than... guards. While thats fine for cut-throats, pagans and bandits, it's pretty damn unrealistic for trained, proffesional guards. By lack of stamina, I'm assuming many other folks never had a " run for your life" moment in TDS. Damn, I had MANY moments like that (especially when being chased by trees in the Pagan forest from the Trail of Blood level in TMA). In TDS, there wasn't a single AI that gave chase around more that two or three corners. Do me a favour, go and play TDP again, get the attention of a Hammerite haunt and see how long he persues you.

Hypevosa
22nd Nov 2010, 17:22
lack of sword fighting system is in reference to how guards in the old games would parry and do combos and hilt punch you and do a half dozen things besides just swing in the same direction. TDS had no such diversity in swordplay (although it is partly because of the fact there was no sword for Garrett too).

AI in TDS couldn't run for more than 20(?) seconds before running out of stamina and just giving up. While I might appreciate this system for people wearing full plate armor or something like that, normal folks aren't so heavily outfitted that they can't at least run for an entire minute straight. If they bring back the stamina thing they need to at least make people able to pursue you for a minute, and have them gradually slow at 30 seconds instead of basically stopping.

The memory problem he's referring to is how people would always go to no alert even if they watched you run off or you attacked them, unlike in the old games how guards who'd experienced you would be genuinely more alert the second time you taffed across their path.

Platinumoxicity
22nd Nov 2010, 18:27
Thanks for clearing that up. I have a suspicion that one of the main reasons why Garrett doesn't have a sword in TDS is because it would have required many extra things.

1: A similar sword attack system on the player like in T1 and T2. In TDS there was only "attack" which dealt damage directly in front of Garrett, regardless of which vertical direction the player was aiming at, and blocking wasn't available in the game at all.
2: AI that would use their swords like they do in T1 and T2. In TDS the AI just play a stabbing animation with the sword and if the player is close enough he takes damage.
3: Swordfighting would have had to be in 1st person for better control of blocking and hitting. Obviously the whole game was aimed at a 3rd person mode audience so changing to 1st person when carrying a sword would have been an inconvenience for those players.

The dagger was an easy way out. Very easy. Actually it was pretty lazy. Having a sword would have been more consistent and it would have prevented the "2 blackjacks" problem but it would have required extra programming in many sectors like any major feature you include in a game. So they duplicated the blackjack, made it lethal and changed the model and animations.

...that or it was the engine's fault again. Which again makes one think... What were they thinking when they chose that engine? We could've had a "Thief III - The Deadly Shadows". :D

Hypevosa
22nd Nov 2010, 18:39
I have a feeling there was a tremendous amount of man hours spent trying to work with and make workarounds in the engine JUST to get a working game on time, and we can thank alot of TDS's discrepancies and shortcomings for that.

Speaking of the old games' AI though, something I'd appreciate would be not having auto-alert. I remember on a few occasions where a guard was super alert he could not even be looking at me and if my light gem got above 2 shades they'd turn around and attack instantly. Or if I let up the creep button of a single moment. Guards on super alert in the old games were a little ridiculously aware.

Zhukov
25th Nov 2010, 08:10
I wouldn't mind a new order rising in the City with the Pagans, Hammerites, and Keepers shells of their former selves, sort of like the Hammers in TMA. I wouldn't mind the City descending into chaos, thugs ruling the streets with the nobility holed up in fortified mansions or walled communities. Missions would be primarily based on infiltrating these hardened but lucrative places. Who knows maybe you would be stealing food and medicine instead of loot. Other missions would have you dealing with the warlords/gang leaders wanting you dead for some reason getting chased through the ghettos or sewers by their henchmen.

massimilianogoi
27th Apr 2011, 22:10
I still have to understand why @ Angelwatch there were so many organic support, as wooden ceilings, and wooden furniture... didn't Karras forbid all the wooden things, because of the Trickster one?

Keeper_Riff
28th Apr 2011, 05:40
The Angelwatch was a powerful transmitter to communicate with Markham's Isle. So, when the rust gas was released, the tower would go down like any organic would, and Karras would know his plan was actually working seeing the loss of signal. And of course, he didn't want someone to survive using his building as cover.

Nephthys
28th Apr 2011, 07:12
I don't think it's completely right to blame Ion Storm for the engine's quality, since as people have said, it wasn't the IS team's fault the problems sprung up, and the deadlines did not help. The real question is if whether or not the engine's confining qualities effected the story heavily, or if IS had a very similar story and plan for the environment, factions, etc. whether or not the engine had problems.

It's hard to say whether or not they would have changed the diversity of the Pagans and Hammers, or not. And that's what I think is the real mystery here.

Hamadriyad
28th Apr 2011, 09:49
The Angelwatch was a powerful transmitter to communicate with Markham's Isle. So, when the rust gas was released, the tower would go down like any organic would, and Karras would know his plan was actually working seeing the loss of signal. And of course, he didn't want someone to survive using his building as cover.
I don't think that was the reason. I think he wanted Angelwatch looks natural to other people, unlike the Soulforge. Soulforge was his castle, his protection. But Angelwatch can be wasted.

Hamadriyad
28th Apr 2011, 10:08
Possibly. Actually I've never think that before, and I am sure there are more things that I don't think yet. That's why Thief is so awesome. It is a very detailed game and not simple, not at all.

massimilianogoi
29th Apr 2011, 00:02
Angelwatch was a tower of metal. It wasn't going to go down, and neither were all the stone fortresses, but the ones that had wooden supports, flooring, rooms, etc. It communicated with Markham's Isle using light signals. Angelwatch wasn't sealed, and the carpeting (found mostly in the guest and visiting areas), cloth, beds, banners, paintings, crates and wooden dinnerware and cookery (there will be no one around who will need to eat again, so it makes sense to have such things made to disappear, and there are Masked Servants there to set off the reaction), the library books would create a pretty concentrated gas cloud (and there's a Masked Servant in there to get the reaction going)...

Yes, but also in Soulforge I've found wooden things, that's strange indeed: all the beds in the camerates, all the chests in there, and the hatches where you can hook the vine arrows... Now, I just want to hope that is for the developers's laziness to not have another materials, otherwise Karras would fall in contraddiction, having wood even in his most intimate place...

And for the Servants @ Angelwatch: that Servant in the library was with a noble woman, so in the moment of the signal, surely it wasn't there anymore. Same for the other Servants wandering around in kitchen, because there were still nobles when Garrett visited the Castle Of The Future.

ChristheThief
29th Apr 2011, 20:34
I wouldn't mind seeing a spin-off of the fection, leg by Cavador perhaps?

Or see the return of the Trickster.

We will have to wait and see....

massimilianogoi
29th Apr 2011, 20:50
Hmmmm.... Brother Cavador, unluckily, fell in the Pagans's hands, and I don't guess they are light-handed with the Mechanists, who slaughetered their people... I'm afraid Viktoria and her fellows tortured him, to make him spit anything the wanted to know, then killed him :-(

Dasubervixen
29th Apr 2011, 20:55
I've always wanted to learn more about the Precursors. It seems that they may have not all died when their city was buried. Where did the survivors go and what became of them? They had an order called the "Guild of Enlightenment". That was much like the Keepers. One of them was even called the "Keeper of the Keys". Did the Guild of Enlightenment become the Keepers? Now that the Keepers are gone and Garret is the only true Keeper left. Will he have to start a new order to maintain balance?

Thief: Return of the Precursors.

Dasubervixen
29th Apr 2011, 23:14
Without the Glyphs there can be no Balancing.
Not sure what you mean by that.

massimilianogoi
30th Apr 2011, 00:12
All the known Glyphs was destroyed by the activation of the Last Glyph.

See the end of TDS.

Dasubervixen
30th Apr 2011, 00:19
All the known Glyphs was destroyed by the activation of the Last Glyph.
But wasn't it the Precursors or even some race before them that wrote the glyphs? How do we really know that they were found? How do we know that they were all assembled correctly by what's her name?

massimilianogoi
30th Apr 2011, 00:31
http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Glyph

Dasubervixen
30th Apr 2011, 01:14
http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Glyph
The function of the glyphs are many, and take numerous forms. Their exact purpose is hard to define"

That leaves a lot of maneuvering room.

"Thief: Deadly Shadows, in fact, wholly transforms the picture of the glyphs."

Should Deadly Shadows really be considered part of canon? I don't think so.

"Glyphs are different from magical spells in their nature: they are, to some measure, sentient"

A clue to what happened to the Precursors?

Dasubervixen
30th Apr 2011, 02:15
What's worse; casting away all of TDS and related plot assertions through all the games, or rewriting the canon of Karath Din?
Deadly Shadows should be like the season seven of Dallas. A dream and a bad one at that.

massimilianogoi
30th Apr 2011, 12:19
Deadly Shadows should be like the season seven of Dallas. A dream and a bad one at that.

You're aberring. TDS was the best of all the games, a bad controlling doesn't justify a scorn like that...

massimilianogoi
30th Apr 2011, 14:54
From a technical standpoint, TDM is a clunky mess too, worster than TDS.

massimilianogoi
1st May 2011, 12:54
Let's hope Thief 4 will be different and alot better, in this only point of view, that is a TDS flaw, indeed, maybe the only relevant flaw I've noticed. When you jump in irregular surfaces sometimes the wrestling fly position happens, that is almost unbearable, most because you're followed by some enemy from which you want to escape, jumping onto some obstacle.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5755/321321j.jpg

Hamadriyad
8th May 2011, 06:44
Glyphs are gone, ok, but saying Keepers are gone too is a little bit wrong in my opinion. They are not dead, so they can continue to observe The City, hoping glyphs will come back one day. Maybe they can change their name until that day. -Observers in Fringe aren't too similar our Keepers? They can't interfere and they are too robotic but still smilar.-
They shouldn't have an important role in the plot though.

massimilianogoi
8th May 2011, 09:34
What were these secret tunnels running through private properties?

Platinumoxicity
8th May 2011, 09:42
What were these secret tunnels running through private properties?

I'm pretty sure that the keeper magic door next to the docks district gate wasn't the only secret tunnel in the City.

massimilianogoi
8th May 2011, 12:29
Yeah, but still I have to see a practical example of tunnel through private properties. Some name?

Hamadriyad
8th May 2011, 13:24
The people are alive, but they have nothing to do any Keeping of any Balance with. I would not be happy if they were not in serious trouble with the citizenry, the City Watch, the Hammerites, the Barony, with all their secret tunnels and buildings running through private property and all over and throughout The City. I would expect a major round-up, interrogations, fear, anger, shock, questions of espionage and intelligence compromises, and I would also expect some Keepers to become librarians, historians, records keepers, book keepers, archivists, secretaries, merchants (a potentially nice bit in T4), and also tell the Baron and his military generals things they should know now that the Keepers cannot predict the future or foresee what known threats may do. I would expect some to become mercenaries, some to flee The City (as I would expect some Mechanists did), some to become cooks and housekeepers, some to enlist in the military, and basically integrate where they could according to their purely human specialties, should they avoid mass persecution.

The Order and everything it stands for and the means by which they work, aside from human skillsets, are dead. There is no Keeping anymore, or we must rewrite major and emphasized TDS canon.
So, what will they do? Just give it up, after all those years? If I was a Keeper, I would never give up. I would search any ways to come glyphs back,-don't get me wrong, I don't want glyphs back, I want to see they want them back, and try to do that.- and restoring the balance. Of course some of them may be librarian, historians etc. But it should be a cover for them, since they can't be invisible anymore.

massimilianogoi
8th May 2011, 13:38
So, what will they do? Just give it up, after all those years? If I was a Keeper, I would never give up. I would search any ways to come glyphs back,-don't get me wrong, I don't want glyphs back, I want to see they want them back, and try to do that.- and restoring the balance. Of course some of them may be librarian, historians etc. But it should be a cover for them, since they can't be invisible anymore.

:thumb:

For the Mechanists too. jtr7 is too pessimistic. Their stories aren't finished.

Hamadriyad
8th May 2011, 15:28
I don't want Keepers back, but I want to see their new path, like how I want to see Mechanists, not as a faction. I said they can be a new faction before, but I guess it wouldn't be good. But definitely I want to see how some of them are still trying to gain glyphs again hopelessly. And some of them still would be informers for Garrett.
I hope Thief 4 won't make the same mistake with TDS, and erase them completely without any trace.

Prince_VLAD
30th Jan 2012, 05:38
mmm...after two years they're still debating in my thread. I am quite delighted Viktoria ! I bis see you, I know you're there in the shadows...hehe :p

HellionKal
30th Jan 2012, 10:30
They actually stopped debating since last May, but way to bring it back up :P

DarkDagger
31st Jan 2012, 20:03
I hope Thief 4 won't make the same mistake with TDS, and erase them completely without any trace.

Really...?

CaptainObvious
16th Feb 2012, 18:06
The first trilogy and the whole Balance deal between nature and progress is over, and I wouldn't mind a breath of fresh air with a new faction. IIRC there have been mentions of the City being at war with someone, how about them having lost and being occupied by a new faction?

tarvis79
16th Feb 2012, 18:11
I hated the Mechanists, mostly as a comparison to the Hammerites. I'd love to see a whole bevy of new factions, rather than just 1.

Moreth
18th Feb 2012, 07:07
I might be wrong but it seemed to me that glyphs were only part of what made keepers a one of several power centers within the city. The most obvious thing that gives Keepers power isn't glyphs, it's information. The keepers seem to be the only faction who looked at the city as a whole. Were they nosy and intrusive? Of coarse they were/are. It's the nature of power to be used for good or ill. If I had to select a faction to play it'd be the keepers simply because they fit how I play the closest. ie: It's not about morality, it's about completing the mission. Great discussion :)

mo

george12123
2nd Apr 2012, 10:09
Back to mechanists all I want to see of them are a few rouge engineers in a few nobles manisons keeping the security running for those who still want them.

Scene Idea!
Garrett needs to repair his eye, he has run a Hammer Checkpoint and entered a old mechansit stronghold (hammers are going to destroy it later). He is halfway through and suddenly a large metal door opens. A security bot rusted over completely starts limping towards Garrett spewing messages about the word of Karrass in a strained rusted and faultering voice, before stopping right before Garrett and collapsing.

I would defecate myself if that happened.

Hamadriyad
2nd Apr 2012, 12:31
Really...?

Yes, really. You have doubts?

DarkDagger
2nd Apr 2012, 17:28
Yes I do. They were mentioned a lot of times in TDS.

Hamadriyad
2nd Apr 2012, 20:29
Who? Mechanists?
Anyway, to mention is not enough. I would want to see some rusty robots, empty Mechanist buildings and such. Not just words.
Especially I would want to see Angelwatch.

DarkDagger
2nd Apr 2012, 20:41
The Pagan level... And you backed off from your words that they are completely ignored from TDS, didn't you? Thief is a game that shows past events not as a return to the same levels, but with readings and such. Did TMA talked about Constantine all the time? Not to mention that the content for Mechanists is really well put.

Hamadriyad
3rd Apr 2012, 09:08
I played TDS only once, and that was a long time ago, so I might forgot what I read.
Anyway,the situation is different. Mechanists is a faction that doesn't exist anymore, but Pagans still exists. TMA didn't talk about Constatine all the time, because there was no need for that, we had enough Pagans in TMA.
On the other hand, since Mechanists doesn't exist anymore (as a faction) they were not a part of TDS. But how come so much inventions, and such a big influence suddenly disappeared? If it was 100 years ago. Absence of traces of Mechanist is not only harmful to atmosphere of TDS,but it is also nonsense.

Platinumoxicity
3rd Apr 2012, 09:52
If it was 100 years ago. Absence of traces of Mechanist is not only harmful to atmosphere of TDS,but it is also nonsense.

TDS was development hell, so the absence of things that had to be left out don't need to be considered as canon. Garrett didn't really forget how to swim. Rope arrows didn't disappear. Mechanists didn't disappear without a trace. The City Watch really did still have their bobby helmets. The City districts weren't really the size of medium-sized shopping malls. Garrett did actually wear his cloak.

...those are all compromises caused by development- and game engine limitations that don't need to be considered part of the continuity, and can be fixed in a modern technology sequel.

Hamadriyad
3rd Apr 2012, 10:20
Sure. I am just hoping Thief IV won't repeat that.

tarvis79
3rd Apr 2012, 12:14
It actually makes lots of sense for the Mechanists to disappear as a faction. They were a splinter faction from a mainstream religion, the Hammerites, and their existence depended almost entirely on one man-Karras. They were just as much a cult of personality for Karras as they were a true religion. When it was conclusively shown by his idea to murder everyone that the man was insane, any surviving Mechanists would likely disband. It's like the Peoples Temple not existing anymore after the Jonestown massacre.

They also didn't vanish "without a trace." We hear about the ruins of Soulforge, the Cetus Amicus, and something called the heresy trials. That may not be everything.

Hamadriyad
3rd Apr 2012, 12:38
Are you sure you read my post?
I am not saying disappearing of Mechanists as a faction doesn't make sense, I am saying that disappearing of its inventions, devices, and influence does not make sense. Please post after read properly.
And yes, I forgot, we read and hear about them. But I said before, it is just not enough.
Anyway, as Platinum pointed out, it was because of limitations.

tarvis79
3rd Apr 2012, 15:19
I only read Platinum's post, I wasn't reacting to yours. Still, I would say it makes a degree of sense if we assume Karras was the only one who knew how to build/maintain the inventions. Victrolas can be found throughout TDS, and we saw that the iron beasts eventually ran out of fuel and died, but I suspect that you're right that Watchers, at minimum, should not have simply vanished.

george12123
3rd Apr 2012, 22:58
I would say it makes a degree of sense if we assume Karras was the only one who knew how to build/maintain the inventions.

Ok that simply boils my britches.
Karrass invented them, mechanist engineers could maintain them, for example: Shoalsgate Station they had cameras and also a mech engineer who was talking to a guard the engineer even knew how the cameras knew who was an intruder or not.
Also the mansion (forgot mission name and name of house, shock horror) that had cameras and turrets every 5 metres and Karrass was not there but i bet a few mechanist engineers were though.

Your assumption is out of the question. Sorry for the rant i just needed to let off some steam. :whistle:

DarkDagger
4th Apr 2012, 11:08
My assumption is that the City folk despise almost everything connected to the Mechanists. Example the widow Moira: "That silly viktrola annoys me--why must we have that ugly Mechanist thing crouching in our bedroom?"
Also now that the Hammerites have their power and influence, they consider the works of the Mechanists to be heresy... and we know what happens to heretics right?

Hamadriyad
5th Apr 2012, 17:03
I only read Platinum's post, I wasn't reacting to yours. Still, I would say it makes a degree of sense if we assume Karras was the only one who knew how to build/maintain the inventions. Victrolas can be found throughout TDS, and we saw that the iron beasts eventually ran out of fuel and died, but I suspect that you're right that Watchers, at minimum, should not have simply vanished.

Your post was right after mine, and "without any trace" was in my post, so I thought you reacted mine. But I don't remember any post that Platinum says disappearing of Mechanists as a faction is nonsense either.
Anyway, I don't want to see any working robots, hell no. But I would want to see some robots, maybe malfunctioned or completely broken. Robot pieces hear and there.
Besides, Karras may be a genious, but he is not the only one.

@DarkDagger

Such an influnce can not disappear in such a short time. No matter how powerful Hammerites can be. And just because a faction doesn't exist anymore you don't despise a thing you like suddenly.
If Hammerites forced people to leave from Mechanist devices, then we've should seen some traces of that.

DarkDagger
5th Apr 2012, 19:31
That's exactly the time between DS and MA... You can't know these things for sure, and as mentioned before Mechanist stuff is all around DS.

Hamadriyad
5th Apr 2012, 20:00
Mechanist stuff is not all around DS, at all. I read all mentionings about Mechanists in TDS and they say pretty much nothing. TDS feels like Mechanists only invented a god damn victrola. That's ridiculous.

DarkDagger
5th Apr 2012, 20:48
Clearly you haven't played the game much, or at least explored it.

Hamadriyad
6th Apr 2012, 09:15
Well, that might be true that I forgot (even though I don't think so). Then please fresh my memory.

Platinumoxicity
6th Apr 2012, 11:16
Clearly you haven't played the game much, or at least explored it.

And I'm pretty sure you've explored the wrong game. Face it. It's as if Thief 2 never existed. Everything that you can see in TDS is the same old wrought-iron hammerite stuff that was all over the Dark Project, and there's even less of it than there was in that game. None of the brass and patina was there. And the mechanists reconstructed or built many of their installations from scratch, and they were all brand-new. Nothing is like that in TDS. Everything is old, worn and crappy. Everything is medieval and there's no sign of victorian white plaster concrete or large silver-laid sheet glass windows. I expected Auldale to look more like Dayport or the Bank in Thief 2, but it was all that same grey brick and small windows as far as the eye could see.

One could argue that the gas lamps and the... wait there weren't even any ether lamps or collector towers in TDS! I was going to say that those things could arguably be of mechanist origin, but it seems that technology actually reverted to pre-TDP standards, since the only lamps seen in the streets are normal electric lights, and there are no cordless ether lamps or collector towers. Those things were hammerite-made lights that presumably extracted their power from starlight and moonlight using those green-tipped antennae.

But! There's one mechanist thing in addition to the phonograph that made its way to TDS. The gas wall lights. They didn't make their way all the way, allowing reignition with a flick of a switch, but at least they are there.

george12123
6th Apr 2012, 20:54
There may be no evidence of Mechanists being in the thief world in TDS. But in TDS they were referenced quite a bit in a few books and I did overhear some hammers talk about them also the last words of Karras are on a recording in the museum.

DarkDagger
7th Apr 2012, 07:46
Let me copy something...

"Yup. I see more in a day than I reckon most folks ever do. Like when I was guttin that mackerel. Bet nobody will believe what came out of its belly. Nobody believes old Eli. Guess they think the salt air shriveled my thinkin cap. Well, maybe it did. Reminds me of the time I was working my scrimshaw when that metal whale came floatin by. Made a sound I won't never forget. There was even words on it. Cetus Amicus. You don't forget a thing like that. Breathed fire too. So scared I nearly whittled my thumb off."

That's one. Find the others if you wish I don't feel like doing it for you. If anyone wants that PM me. Also I already explained why there isn't any Mechanist stuff around. Hammerites = No Mechanists therefore taking the technology process in the City the way it was in DP.

Platinumoxicity
7th Apr 2012, 09:09
Also I already explained why there isn't any Mechanist stuff around. Hammerites = No Mechanists therefore taking the technology process in the City the way it was in DP.

That could be described as "nonsense" -if I'm not mistaken. Although I could be wrong because I'm not a native English speaker.

-Everyone knows that there are some text references to mechanists in TDS.
-There are also victrolas, but actually those things existed before the mechanists. There's one in the Shalebridge Cradle. Although the one at Moira's is directly said to be of mechanist origin.
-There are no physical leftovers, and I'm going to put my money on the explanation that the developers ran out of time. It was not a priority to reference the earlier games heavily, so they did all they could, using easy techniques. Like text resources and a sound file or two.

But I do not believe for a second that it went the other way around. That the "Hammerite heresy trials" were an event set in stone early in writing, that made all mechanist-related stuff completely forbidden in TDS. It makes much more sense for it to have been added into the lore to justify the absence of mechanist-related content. And that is a good enough explanation for me.

I don't think it would be considered extremely canon that mechanist stuff was wiped out. I think that since TDS had so much trouble with development, a lot of stuff, including things like mechanist relics, City Watch guard models and Kurshok animations were abandoned. They are compromises that don't need to be repeated without a reason. There can be mechanist stuff in Thief 4, and the City Watch can have those bobby helmets again.

Motion capture is expensive and difficult. Especially in the past. Thief 2 had a fair share of compromises too. Like the recycled swordfighting animations that the apemen use during barehanded combat. It looks ridiculous, but Thief 2 had very few new animations added to the humanoid NPCs, and it wasn't a high priority to give a new set of combat animations to an enemy only encountered in one level. Just like it wasn't a high priority to make the Kurshoks more like the Lovecraftian inbred hunched "deep ones" so they left them very much humanlike in their movement and behavior. Makes one wonder though, why the obscure giant ratmen got their own animations but the kurshok didn't?

DarkDagger
7th Apr 2012, 10:24
We also don't have writings of the Hammerite massacre that occurred during T1, the killing of the High Priest and such. It is in itself for the Thief games to hide the plots of previous games, and I think that adds to the hardcorness of the game. Having model changes isn't something that DS had done for the first time. Also again we have to mention the limitations of the console. Imagine the Mechanist stuff that developers could've put in if the game had the level sizes of its predecessors. And if they've put Mechanist stuff all around the place that would've rob DS from having its own feeling.

fbdbh
29th May 2012, 13:25
I'm nearing the end of Thief 2 (it may be my 7th walkthrough or so), and I have a few thoughts.

I think it is a bit dangerous to assume that Thief can erase such enormous phenomenon as the Mechanists. TDS felt wrong in this aspect. It is okay to have a unique atmosphere, it is okay that the lore allows that historical facts are distorted.

However, Thief 2 took time and every chance to imply what happened to the Hammerites, there are still a few Hammerites around, texts, chapels, cemeteries. Mechanist talk about how they felt about the change. It was very cruel to take away everything related to the Mechanists. What they have achieved is remarkable. What happened to Angelwatch? The huge amound of Iron beasts, mask? They could have been melted, since Hammerites were against this kind of evil progress, but what about the Bank, the nobles? I assume that the majority of the City was shocked to find out what Karras was up to, but why throw away completely useful tools and devices, like the security mask?

If the Order of the Hammer was so influential (which I really doubt, because 1. they had a fall before, 2. they made the Mechanists!) that they supressed every idea or memory about progress... even then, there should be much more. I really hope that some nobles in Thief 4 still own some of these iron things. The Cetus Amicus in a warehouse! Or altered iron beasts. Without Karras's face obviously, but still... the whole concept of the Mechanists is fantastic, yet completely a natural evolution from the Hammerites... there should be more of this idea. If not Mechanists, then something else. I really loved how not only technology progressed, but how it was supported by art: sculpture and the art deco styles. Where is that progress? Who did it harm? It would be really stupid to say that Hammerites want to get rid of that as well. They're purist, but they're not representing the whole City.

So. More mechanists or mutations of religion.

Hamadriyad
29th May 2012, 13:42
May the Builder bless you!

Platinumoxicity
30th May 2012, 07:50
If the Order of the Hammer was so influential (which I really doubt, because 1. they had a fall before, 2. they made the Mechanists!) that they supressed every idea or memory about progress....

The hammerites aren't the enemies of progress. The total opposite. The hammerites are the proponents of progress and technological advancement. Their mission is to improve the world through the things that mankind can create, using the tools that the master builder gave them. They are the opposite of the forces of natural chaos, that wish that everything would come from nature and man could never spoil the earth by taking things and twisting them to their own selfish needs. The pagans want the dangers of the wilderness to determine who lives or who dies. Those are the enemies of progress.

The mechanists had one thing that made them different from the hammerites. And that thing was Karras. He wanted to take the idea of progress one step too far. Away from both the future that the hammers work for, and the past that the pagans support. He wanted technology to replace life itself. He got all the support he wanted because of his opportunism and more open approach with his religion. Eventually though even the mechanist followers caught up on his plans, and Karras needed to resort to forcefully "installing faith" into his closest protectors. That's why all the guards in Soulforge are masked slaves.

Anyway, I liked the way the "intermediate" mechanists looked in Thief 2X - Shadows of the Metal Age. Sort of like mechanists in modified hammerite armor. It would be cool to still see a "protestant mechanist" church operating, with symbols depicting father Karras nailed upside down on a gear, and the hammer still functioning as the main symbol, to remind everyone of the importance of the old ways of the order. This church would be like an enterprise of engineers working as a religion, trying still slowly to bring about the builder's paradise, but without destroying the old world in the process.

I made a neo-hammerite modification of my mechanist girl. :p
http://a0.vsoh.com/mechhamm.png

fbdbh
30th May 2012, 08:35
Nice :)

One of the missions I played in the weekend was the Precious Cargo and there was a conversation between two mechanists: one of them was fully converted, the other was still citing the old ways. Something like:
"Look at this house, what a shame to see this fine wood rot. Nail & hammertime, brotha'!"
"Nay, wood is vile. Metal all the way, lasteth forever like my hair wax."
It was very interesting to hear this different kind of interpretation of progress and building.

MasterTaffer
31st May 2012, 18:05
I've always imagined the Hammerites went on a huge smear campaign after Karras' death and did everything they could to eliminate remnents and memory of Karras and his machines in the public concious. Without their charismatic leadership, the Mechanists were ill equipped to fight for themselves in the public image. Not to mention a few may have caught wind of Karras' plan and may have fled the sect. Those left alive either repented or were killed. Hell, I bet quite a few "criminals" in Cragscleft were muttering Karras' name at one point.

History is written by the victor.

Yes, the Hammers are pro-progress; but they're also fanatical religious fascists. Anything that does not fall in line with their harsh tenets tends to be deemed heretical. Given that they viewed Karras as a heretic when he was alive, what makes you think they would keep or allow his devices in death? They more than likely grabbed everything they could and melted it down into slag to prevent Karras' blasphemy from living on.

keeperr
2nd Jun 2012, 18:05
The Keepers were my idols until we met the Keeper enforcers.
It made me wonder why they wanted Garrett to do anything for them, and makes me wonder why any keeper would ever leave the compound, specially to go on crazy missions and get lost and die in places like the lost city or why enforcers wearn't the ones to come save Garrett after meeting Constantine. Or why they wearnt sent to take out the Trickster, nor Karras or the hag.
The enforcers just didn't sit right IMO, however would be amazing if the Keepers were back up again how they were in the first two games. Not translating glyph or reading prophecies but records and predictions?
Obviosly the Hammers & Pagans will be in thief 4 and would be good to see a few Mechanist references again. As well as references to the Trickster, and the hag etc More than Thief3 did anyway, I too was shocked at their lack of evidence for ever existing!
Not looking forward to the beasts, especially the crazy T3 ones. Or any other new ones. Completely bizarre move introducing new beasts. IMO. madness.

TheWoodsieLord
2nd Jun 2012, 18:23
Not looking forward to the beasts, especially the crazy T3 ones. Or any other new ones. Completely bizarre move introducing new beasts. IMO. madness.

I found the T3 beasts to be superior to the ones we encountered in the previous two games. At least they were (mostly) sentient beings, and despite my fondness towards Burricks, I found them and similar creatures (especially the fire elementals and ****) to be atmosphere-breaking.

Platinumoxicity
2nd Jun 2012, 18:47
I think the special monsters and other AI in TDS could have been done better. But obviously it was just details, and they didn't have the resources. The kurshok could have had their own hunched fish-people animations, to reflect the decay of their species and society closer to blind cave-dwelling beasts. The Cradle staff were comical, in their black-painted servant model look. They should have been more ghost-like. The statues should have been indestructible, haunts didn't even need to exist in their makeshift form, and zombies should have looked like real decaying corpses.

And most importantly, the Enforcers should have been stealthy assassins. Completely mute and silent, sticking to the shadows, quick, deadly and with a collective intelligence. They also should have left ordinary citizens alone.

It seems that all the special AIs in TDS were just haphazard slight variations of the normal guard AIs. I'm not saying that Thief 2 did much better, but as with all other subjects, improvements and innovations were expected.

DarkDagger
2nd Jun 2012, 20:29
I agree with you except on the zombie part. Take a look and tell me that's a normal person:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090311221233/thief/images/thumb/c/ca/TDSZombies.JPG/830px-TDSZombies.JPG
It never seems to amaze me no matter how bad the AI in the Thief games is, it's still a lot better then most of the games to this date.

Prince_VLAD
10th Aug 2012, 10:43
mmm my thread still is alive...I just wonder if UBISOFT Montreal payed attention, too as you all had.