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View Full Version : Matchmaking, Stats and Leagues in Nosgoth



GeorgeCST
16th Feb 2014, 12:37
Hi. I was just wondering if Nosgoth will have a Rating and Matchmaking Tier/League System.

1. By Rating i'm refering to something like MMR (Matchmaking Rating) based on your wins/losses. Also it would be nice asside from MMR if you could easily see other players stats as well (Win/Loss, Kill/Death/Assist Ratio). I really liked this while playing Heroes of Newerth that you could easily see what type of players you were matched with.

2. A league system like the one in Starcraft 2 is what i was mentioning. So if you're over, let's say 1600 MMR, you get into Silver League and get matched with silver league players. It doense't have to be Copper/Silver/Gold, you can give it a Nosgoth spin. The thing is this is another type of reward system.

It's good to play for items/skills/perks but it's different to play for a "Better" rating or position. It gives you a sense of accomplishment and purpose. This is just my thought as i've been playing online multiplayer games a lot and having a rating system always drives players to be better and obviously to play more. What do you guys think?

Khalith
16th Feb 2014, 12:47
1. By Rating i'm refering to something like MMR (Matchmaking Rating) based on your wins/losses. Also it would be nice asside from MMR if you could easily see other players stats as well (Win/Loss, Kill/Death/Assist Ratio). I really liked this while playing Heroes of Newerth that you could easily see what type of players you were matched with.

I disagree with this, I don't want other people seeing my stats, I don't even want to see my stats. I'm not really interested in my numbers or any one else's numbers either, I just want to play and enjoy myself and do the best I can. If this is added I'd like the ability to just disable even seeing my own stats to. Mostly because I feel that the individual numbers are entirely meaningless, especially in a team based game, someone could have a really good kill to death ratio or a high win to loss ratio. So what?

Their team could have been covering each other really well or were just really good or maybe the other team could have just been really bad, or lagging, or trying classes they weren't that good with, etc. The assists? Maybe he managed to get a bit of aoe damage on an already injured opponent, not even intending to. The last thing the game needs is people that are obsessed over those sorts of numbers, if you want to know your own individual scores cool, I don't care about mine and I certainly don't care about your's either!

Edit: It reminds me of reaching a high rating in a certain other game, yet despite that accomplishment people felt the need to insult my team simply because their Win to Loss ratio was better than our's even though their overall rating was still lower, as if win to loss ratio even matters when your overall rating is higher.. Idiots like that soured me on the entire stat thing, I honestly want nothing to do with it.


2. A league system like the one in Starcraft 2 is what i was mentioning. So if you're over, let's say 1600 MMR, you get into Silver League and get matched with silver league players. It doense't have to be Copper/Silver/Gold, you can give it a Nosgoth spin. The thing is this is another type of reward system.

Long as I can opt out of it, fine. Personally I think something like this should be strictly reserved for full premade teams of 4.

GeorgeCST
16th Feb 2014, 15:33
Mostly because I feel that the individual numbers are entirely meaningless, especially in a team based game, someone could have a really good kill to death ratio or a high win to loss ratio. So what?

Their team could have been covering each other really well or were just really good or maybe the other team could have just been really bad, or lagging, or trying classes they weren't that good with, etc. The assists? Maybe he managed to get a bit of aoe damage on an already injured opponent, not even intending to. The last thing the game needs is people that are obsessed over those sorts of numbers, if you want to know your own individual scores cool, I don't care about mine and I certainly don't care about your's either!

.

That's why i said Kill/Death/Assist not just K/D ... I agree that KD doesen't tell you much, i never had good KD in HoN either because i was more team oriented than just agreessive killer. I still think those numbers can be important for some players.

Also if they're making Nosgoth as an E-Sport i think it should have these systems or something similar.

Violet-n-red
16th Feb 2014, 18:06
optional ranked play is a good thing, because then players can be separated for those who seek a challenge and those who's here just for fun.

as about stats - i don't care about them at all - as long as i'm not dying all the time and can at least see people doing some crazy stuff, i'm having fun. to me, it's more about single encounters.

GeorgeCST
16th Feb 2014, 18:22
Getting rank points at the end of the game doesn't have an impact on the moment to moment encounters during gameplay. And yes, those who want to play unranked can do so, (and there could be an option for them to not see their stats if they choose) and those who want competitive games can play ranked, then everyone is happy.

faeral
16th Feb 2014, 19:17
e-sports would not function without ladder / league. i'm sure they are thinking about it. this wouldn't affect casual play, i presume there would be unranked games as well.

faeral
16th Feb 2014, 19:23
Long as I can opt out of it, fine. Personally I think something like this should be strictly reserved for full premade teams of 4.

having a Duo Queue option to play with 1 friend with a solo rating is nice, since a team of 4 cannot play together all the time, but parts of a team can still practice semi-competitively this way without scrimming.

Wobbley
16th Feb 2014, 20:28
The way I see it we are actually talking about three things here: Basic statistics, then using these statistics to create a matchmaking system and a ranking. I have spent a good chunk of the last 10 years playing MOBA games, FPS, RTS and MMOs both competitively, and casually. I will divide it into these three topics based on relevant experience. This is a long post so there are some TLDR. If you are going to quote me I prefer you read the long version first though :)

Statistics
Personally I love statistics, and I just don't mean the simple K/D or Wins/Losses I mean the interesting stuff as well that you never consider. What is your most used spell, what side do you play the most, what character is your favourite etc. The way I see it though there should be a line between what stats are public and which are private. The statistics I am mentioning below are account based and permanent statistics, not the ones you necessarily see during a game.

Private statistics
These are the kind of statistics that in my opinion is in everyone best interest to be kept private, as they can shift the focus away from the actual game, lead to people being abused, or players wanting to maximize. Stats i consider best kept private are for example K/D ratio and W/L ratio.

The reason I want to keep this private is that I have experienced to many times an elitist (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=elitist) player giving crap to someone with a low KD ratio. Player badmouthing someone with bad stats for picking a carry, or simple reminding him of that fact every time he screws up. Statistics are great, but sometimes people get too obsessed by them and use them as a measure of skill even though this is not their purpose. Statistics never tell you the whole story, especially not in a team based game. What if the 0.5 KD ratio guy always plays a medic, or a support. Meaning he dies but his team wipes the enemy out. Badmouthing someone before the game even starts in a team based game usually crushes morale and does nobody any good. If the game goes good you are still left with a bitter taste in your mouth, and if it goes really bad them people just start blaming each other.

Public statistics
Public stats are the ones that are done in broader strokes, and can not be directly interpreted as a measure of skill. They are simply informative, or tell others players something about your experience so far. Examples of this could be Wins (just wins), amount of time played, what side you have played the most, your most played character and so on. These kinds of things are interesting to see, yet they do not determine your skill, simply your experience. Some MOBA games have already implemented this. Dota2 presents your three "most successful heroes" the algorithm on how this is calculated is secret, but I believe it is based on how much and how well you have played these heroes in your games. SMITE on the other hand has a more direct approach, in addition to your account level they give you level's on each hero. This is gained simply by playing the hero, and only tells other players how much you have played the hero, not how good you are at him. It is important to note that experience != skill, people will be more hesitant to jump to accusations based on stats if you show experience and not more direct stats.

TLDR: Public and private statistics. Positive/Neutral statistics can be public, wins, most successful hero, favourite faction etc, show a players experience. Negative statistics K/D ratio, W/L ratio and comparisons in general that can be wrongly interpreted as a measure of skill should be kept private.

Rating system
In a competitive game there is no doubt that there should be a matchmaking system, but implementing a matchmaking system simply based on a players W/L ratio would be a terrible idea. The matchmaking system for an online game has a major impact on how well the game is perceived. Players that have even matches are likely to play more than when they get utterly destroyed or destroy their opponent. An example of this would be SMITE, who had a horrendous matchmaking system for a team based game, and that in practice did not work 80% of the time. It worked like this:

Imagine a player has a number saying how good they are it would simply try to match the team numbers such as: 10 + 10 + 10. Would be one team and the other team would be 1 + 1 + 28. On paper these teams are even since both are 30, but in reality these teams are not even close. First of all the skill gap is too wide and the two 10 players could constantly feed on the clueless 1 players. The 1 players would feel frustrated and not learn anything at all because the skill difference would be too big, while the 28 player would just feel frustrated because there is nothing he can do about the situation. He could have played flawlessly but the gap is simply too big and the enemy team too advantage of the situation. The three times 10 team would win easily and not really had a challenge or an entertaining game. (I have been on both sides, and even though the even team sucks less, it still sucks)

Public vs. Private rating
It is fairly hard to calculate a players rating in a team based game. The outcome of the game is not solely depended on one player, and there are numerous other factors that decide how the game will play out. Therefore I can say without a doubt that I personally prefer the rating to be kept private. There should be a rating system, but this should be kept private and the algorithm should be unknown. Much like with K/D ratio people feel instantly superior and believe they can decide what or how you should play because of their higher rating.

A separate competitive mode that provides a public rating would in my eyes be beneficial for the game in general. This way the people who wish to show of their skill or play in a more serious environment are able to do so. This is important because the competitive scene is usually what promotes a game, decides how the game will be balanced, what the meta-game is, and give the average player something to learn from.

TLDR: A good rating system is important, keep the default rating private. Create a competitive mode with public rating because this will drive the game forward, give new meta, and show the average player new tricks.

Rankings (League system)
I have no proper first-hand experience with a ranking system so I would only be talking about things I have no real knowledge or experience with, although there is one thing I do know about it. Providing a rating system where all the players are always visible gives players something to strive for, but keeps the ones at top kind of stressed. I have some friends that play Starcraft pretty seriously who are pretty high up there (Grand Master and Master). It is no longer a game for them, they are sometimes "afraid" of playing on a bad day because they don't want to lose their standing. They might be taking the game too seriously, but on the other hand I kind of understand them, when you get that high up you want to stay there. They actually have separate accounts where they can "warm-up", "relax" or actually play it with friends and treat it more casually.

TLDR: I have no real first-hand experience with such a system. So threw in some second-hand experience. Rating systems might make things more "stressful" but at the same time give the players publicity.

faeral
17th Feb 2014, 08:56
nice post wobbley. i agree with pretty much everything.

i would just like to add that the public ratings should be team-based & not individual-based. so public ratings are attached to Team Rosters. then you can have any level of stat detail available by member when you look at the roster.

the soloQ/duoQ matchmaking ratings could be private, since this competitive gametype is the source of the majority of trolling for any team-based game. keeping this ladder private would allow players of any particular skill level to find even matches, but the ladder would be more casual-friendly since players would not take the bracket so seriously without a public rating to flaunt.

that being said, some of the most-watched channels on Twitch are SoloQ rating climbers, so there is also that to take into account.

is it reasonable to have a private soloQ MMR queue & a public soloQ MMR queue? or does that divide the population too much?

Khalith
17th Feb 2014, 15:27
is it reasonable to have a private soloQ MMR queue & a public soloQ MMR queue? or does that divide the population too much?

Not in a team based game in my opinion. It doesn't matter how good you are personally, if you don't have your team to back you up you'll get shredded, granted it works in some games, I've seen vids of someone playing a spy in TF2 and since that class has the ability to one shot people and hide he is able to sneak around and instakill anyone that tries to go for the objectives while his team captures the objective for himself.

Even then, top score or not he still would have lost the round if his team weren't going for the objectives! It's definitely not an easy thing to do either, takes a lot of skill but his class is built for that, the devs of this game have already stated they don't want to give any class the ability to one shot someone with a single attack which I can agree with.

Wobbley
17th Feb 2014, 17:24
i would just like to add that the public ratings should be team-based & not individual-based. so public ratings are attached to Team Rosters. then you can have any level of stat detail available by member when you look at the roster.

I am not sure I agree on this one, depends on how you define Team Rosters. I would like to believe that a majority of players that play team based games rarely have a full team. Maybe two or three friends and then the rest are random people. So having a "Team Roster" for only full teams would prevent the majority of the community from getting a rating. An alternative would be the ability to create "Groups" and adding friends to that group, when you play with those specific friends your team would get a rating or something like that.

I still believe that there should be public individual ratings for people who want to have them (such a ranked matchmaking mode). I like to play ranked sometimes when I am alone or with a friend and we feel like "being serious" as we call it. Usually we just pick whatever and have fun, but playing on a more competitive environment helps me become a a better player faster and allows me to to easier identify my weakness.



the soloQ/duoQ matchmaking ratings could be private, since this competitive gametype is the source of the majority of trolling for any team-based game. keeping this ladder private would allow players of any particular skill level to find even matches, but the ladder would be more casual-friendly since players would not take the bracket so seriously without a public rating to flaunt.

I am not sure I quite follow you on this one, could you perhaps explain it again, did I indirectly comment on this one based on my comment to the previous quote?



that being said, some of the most-watched channels on Twitch are SoloQ rating climbers, so there is also that to take into account.

This is what I was trying to say as well. The serious players will want to stream, play competitively, and fight for that ranking position or rating. I believe this is good for any game, as it will move it forward, create new ways of playing, and most importantly give it a presence in various gaming related websites.



is it reasonable to have a private soloQ MMR queue & a public soloQ MMR queue? or does that divide the population too much?

I would prefer for this to be divided so that players who want to play casually or seriously can play with people with the same mindset. This way any frowning or bad blood during a match can hopefully can be reduced. As you mentioned there there might be a problem with population, but that is decided with numerous factors. How are the servers divided, how good is their netcode, and which mode will "dominate".

There was an incident where players with very high rating in a moba game called Heroes of Newerth would have to for 30 minutes unless they picked the specific mode that was the most popular. This was simply because the system had a hard time finding a "fair" game due to the players rating. I consider such things a "luxury problem" that only impact a minority of the population and is something I can live with.


Not in a team based game in my opinion. It doesn't matter how good you are personally, if you don't have your team to back you up you'll get shredded, granted it works in some games, I've seen vids of someone playing a spy in TF2 and since that class has the ability to one shot people and hide he is able to sneak around and instakill anyone that tries to go for the objectives while his team captures the objective for himself.

Even then, top score or not he still would have lost the round if his team weren't going for the objectives! It's definitely not an easy thing to do either, takes a lot of skill but his class is built for that, the devs of this game have already stated they don't want to give any class the ability to one shot someone with a single attack which I can agree with.

I agree with your reasoning and general idea, but I rather like to see alternative solutions, then simply removing it. Giving rating to an individual player is pretty inaccurate and broken, but this is why I would prefer to have multiple ratings, as it is often normal in team based games. If you look at highly competitive games such as Starcraft 2 or DoTA 2 you will notice that they have numerous ratings often divided into categories such as:

Solo Rating: xxxx
2 vs 2 Rating: xxxx
Rating with team "SUPER KEWL": xxxx
And so on

This gives competitive players a sense of progress and an incentive to queue solo, and they can play competitively without being on edge. An example of this would be my crazy good Starcraft friends, compared to me they are like micro/macro managing tactical gods. They often queued 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 with me even though I am way inferior to them in Starcraft. They did not care about their rating in that mode, so they could try some new tactics in a challenging game while having fun with a friend that did not take the game as seriously. I am not saying Nosgoth should have a rating per game mode as that might not fit into the game, but perhaps a solo rating in addition to a group rating.

faeral
18th Feb 2014, 06:18
i think we're both pretty much on the same page. things will get convoluted if i try to reply to everything in sequence, so i'll try to tl;dr.

4 queue types:

a) Team Queue - You have a Team Roster ( which can have more than 4 players, so you can pick up players if full team is not online ), with a Public Team Rating. Individual performance would not affect this rating. Your wins / losses would adjust your Team Rating by a proportional amount based on the disparity in rating between your team & the opponents.

Individual stats could be private or public within a Roster, this would have no effect on the rating itself.

b) Solo Queue / Duo Queue - You have a Public Solo Rating in this Queue. You have the option of queuing with up to 1 friend.

c) Private Solo Queue / Duo Queue - You have a Private Solo Rating in this Queue. You have the option of queuing with up to 1 friend. This would have the effect of giving balanced matches to players, but in a slightly more relaxed environment with the lack of a Public Rating.

d) Pub Matches - Custom games, no rating, no restrictions.

So publicly, each player would have:

Team Queue -> The Dirty Mousepads [ roster name ]: XXXX
Solo Queue [ public ]: XXXX

with

Solo Queue [ private ]: Unlisted -- I'm just not sure if this Private Solo Queue is a worthwhile idea if players are just as happy to mess around in pub matches casually. Would there be enough of a demand for players to want balanced matches without a public rating?