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Watcheratthegatesofdusk
13th May 2009, 17:48
How about a thread regarding thoughts/and random ideas regarding the premise of T4?

Random feel, images and fragments phrases that popped up in my head :

You start a new game

Classical thief style intro with first a short text from some obscure scripture or text setting the mood.

Then a classical still image of any thief intro. Place: Garretts home - underground keeper compound (or Gamalls former lair)

Garrett voice-over, (Steven Russell) Something along these lines:

I was a thief.. Lousy home and no family, performing heists and avoiding people was what I did best. But things turned out a bit different then I expected. Being the "prophesized True keeper" and taking on an apprentice was not exactly part of my original lifestyle or retirement plan. But as some old friends once pointed out to me, the past is the past and life has a way of finding me, no matter how good a sneak I am.

some random thoughts/keywords.
Garrett keeping the balance by "relocating" dangerous artifacts from nobles.
Plot items from earlier games displayed at his keeper compound (with comments made from Garrett when the user walks up to them and views them),.
Apprentice having an increasingly separate plot line that eventually converges with Garretts, Someone targets the girl, garret must bust her out of captivity (player must play both characters respectively to escape ).
Garretts keeper compound gets robed when he is busy saving his apprentice (classical strategy) Garrett mumbles something about remembering why he used to work alone.
Dyan, Larkspur summons Garrett for an important job, Victorias "daughter" is revealed as missing.
The Hammers have a similar problem and wants Garretts help

any one else?

esme
13th May 2009, 18:47
I just did a very rough plot outline here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=990588&postcount=196)

acridrose
13th May 2009, 20:46
Or it could continue the plot from T2, revolving around Garrett finding and destroying a new metal gear project, potentially destroying the world with nuclear warheads.


http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6913/metalgear.jpg

Colonel! I found the new metal gear!! What do I do? :S

/Joke


(took me ages to make that picture, and get the metal gear in T2, lol)

DarthEnder
13th May 2009, 21:01
I just did a very rough plot outline here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=990588&postcount=196)And I did one here: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88496

"In Thief 4, Garret will be retired. You will play an up-and-coming thief in the city, and will run into Garret's female apprentice several times in the game.

The game will revolve around the awakening of an ancient god. The Pagans will find that for some reason, their magics can no longer animate the dead. Through the course of the game, it will be learned that the glyphs destroyed by Garret held one of the gods in slumber beneath the city. The new diety, a god of death and entropy, won't actually be up and walking around, but rather exists much like the trickster, and once released begins speaking in the minds of necromancers and the like. A new cult will form around him that refer to him as The Devourer, and they call themselves Ghouls(though they are not undead ghouls, the cultists themselves are humans). Conflict erupts in the streets between The Trickster's Pagans and their beastmen, The Builder's Hammerites and their newly redesigned automatons, and The Devourer's Ghouls and their undead minions. All the while this is happening the City Watch has come under control of a secret society, which turns out to be the remnants of the Keeper Enforcers, who have supplemented thier lost glyphs with some more traditional arcane magics.

During all of this you will be running around, trying to make your fortune stealing, and basically taking advantage of all of the sides of the conflict, all the while you will be unaware that The One True Keeper, Garret, is manipulating you into maintaining balance in the city by pitting you against all sides through his apprentice.

And also, Garret wears The Eye in the place of his mechanical eye. Why? It's a mystery"

esme
13th May 2009, 22:58
mmmm nice one

Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 17:41
Let's see how imagination of a true THIEF series fan runs in a script "scenario" matter. Maybe they don't have a script yet. Maybe all they've got are just ideas and sketches like many of us have and maybe they would like to hear what we have to say about this matter.Let's give it a try (and help them maybe), but let's keep it simple for the time beeing folks.What do you say ?

Watcheratthegatesofdusk
14th May 2009, 18:33
keep em coming.

Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 18:58
It would be fun to hear in Garret's voice some Hollywood lines mock

Ex : Michael Ironside, beating to unconscience with a baseball bat a fellow saying after it's done; "I hate losers! I hate them!"

Garret, after a cut scene in which he jumps (in the begining of a mission) into the back of a Hammerite guard and KO him: "I hate Hammerites ! I hate them all ! I hate how they're whining with their stupid hymns and prairs about of the Builder !! I would beat them all with their hammer over their mouth to silence them for good!!!" And then , whispering for himself after the short rage: "After all, silence and meditation is not a bad thing even for the Hammerites" lllooolll

Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 19:14
I tried to click on the pointed thread but it brings me ...here.So...your point is....? :)

Thievingtaffer
14th May 2009, 19:18
They're pretty much done the 'concept' phase, which means the story is mostly written.

Prince_VLAD
14th May 2009, 19:30
They're pretty much done the 'concept' phase, which means the story is mostly written.

Could be but if I were THEM , I couldn't have helped itnot looking here on this forum (this forum is pointed out from the official page). More than that, I would've created a team to bring up to me any interesting ideas discovered here,where THIEF series TRUE FANS are.So maybe the ...hope is not lost, they still hear us , even when they... create. :)
However it doesn't do any harm if one just make a simple sketch (story), does it ?

Hypevosa
14th May 2009, 21:15
Lets start with recent events:

Garrett has just defeated the "Hag" at the end of the 3rd game, the keepers have lost all their archives, their history, their power, and their influence. Garrett, however, has gained the power of the glyphs, as implied by the end of Thief 3 where he has the key shaped glyph on his hand. So our hero has now gained power, more power than anyone should be allowed to have... and so with that power, comes the curse of attempting to guard it from someone else.

Lets go back in history:
Thief 2: metal age. At the end, Garrett and Viktoria are victorious over the mechanists, using their own plot to turn all organic matter to rust against them, and destroying the mechanist sanctuary... however, not is all it seems, as a hooded figure runs away rust flying from his face. It is most likely Karass. In his devotion to creating the ideal world for the builder's arrival, he purged himself of as many of the human elements as he could, forging himself into, basically, a steam punk android.

Karass had power, influence, and wealth. Garrett stole all that from him, and more... He stole Karass's chance to be the first mortal to see the Builder's coming, and we all know that the power of beliefs is the most powerful, and terrible of all....

The first 2 or 3 missions are normal thieving missions, giving you the feel of the game, you know, spoiling you with the keeper powers you attained...

"Not much really changed. I was living well, no keepers to annoy me, always gold in my purse, although it wasn't always mine... and with my newly found powers certain parts of the job became a little -- easier..."

Naturally after attaining his power Garrett did what he did best... he stole stuff. Not much has changed for Garrett, he steals, earns favors, and generally hasn't changed much, except for maybe using his new found powers every now and then. Why pick a door when you can make one with a glyph? *Sigh* he however... still has to deal with the landlord, and getting his rent on time... One day he's making his way back from another successful job, Lord Bafford's really has to be running out of money at this point... when he walks past a man in an alley. They bump shoulders, "Hello Garrett" *Clank, shhhk shhhk shhhk* Garrett looks down just in time to see the flashbomb that was on his very belt at his feet and *flash* the screen goes white. The scuffle can be heard, clothing ruffling with the quick movements, and then *thunk* the screen goes from white to black.

"But my own carelessness caught up with me... Nothing good lasts forever... not in my trade."

Garrett awakens to find himself bound to what appears to be a rack, a hooded figure standing across from him, a fireplace behind him to assure his face cannot be seen. He turns and throws a bag of gold behind Garrett. "Yes, this is him, now go..." "It was my pleasure." The second voice is that of the man in the alley. A door is heard shutting behind Garrett. The man in the hood reaches into a desk and pulls out a piece of parchment, a flash from the fireplace shows a skeletal metal hand.

"You and I have soo much to discuss, Garrett... so much to catch up on..."

So Garrett has part of his powers stolen by Karass, only interrupted by the girl from the end of the 3rd game. You have part of your powers, and they aren't as potent as they were, but you slowly have to relearn everything you once could do so easily, and pursue Karass (and a profit) to keep him from his second attempt to wipe out all life in the name of the builder.

Limesneeker
15th May 2009, 01:25
Because I think it fits and I want to get more feedback I´m posting my story suggerstion in this thread again:
.
As I said before, I think in order to continue the style of the series, it is important to create a storyline which is designed as a TRILOGY - even if the other parts will never be realised, it would create appropriate depth (again each part would highlight one of three (fanatic) factions)

So this are my ideas:



after the disappearance of the glyphs INDUSTRIALISATION got more and more powerful. The development caused that the trickster got a myth- the townsfolk started to think of him again as a never-existant fairy-tale character.
Even among the Hammers, mystics and priests, who believed in the Builder as actual god become only a few, the "mainstream-hammers" started to belief only in men and technology-some sort of a dark version of humanists. Unlike the Trickster, the Builder was never really manifest anyway.

Because of that,obvious magical phenomena (divine powers of hammer-priests included) got rarer,so that the common belief in gods and greater-forces vanished.



Economy, technology and money got more dominant and this caused corruption, poverty and disrespect for nature to get more dominant than ever.

Maybe the seperation even caused that the different districts look like different time periods: the poor districts remain in a dark-middle-age-state, while the rich-district represents an industrialized art-déco civillization - so progress is limited to the rich. (Through that idea, (minor or major?*) technological progress (relatively to Thief 1-3) could be integrated without harming the dark middle-ages elements)

So what does this technological extreme cause?

"Mystical/magical extremists" on the other side. United by the common goal to reassamble faith and belief in greater forces among the people of the city, hammer and pagan priests unite (though hostility remains) and ask the mages guild for support, which kept its secrecy during the whole development.
They hope that by making the existence of magic public, faith will be reastablished.
Maybe this causes internal conflicts among the mages guild as well. Pagans hope to summon forces of chaos with the help of mages, while hammer priests want to make it clear, that technology comes from forces other than men, namely the builder.


So we have materialistic, narrow-minded, atheistic technocrats, who would industrialize everything and dominate society on one side and a secret, UNDERGROUND group which contains magic, crazy mystics and god-worshipping, on the other side. Of course, the magic-side is too extreme as well, because they want to create a world order in which people are suppressed by priests and gods.


So again, keepers have to keep balance, this time between Magic and Technology. Because glyphs are gone, there tools are a combination of magic and technology (which is appropriate for the middle), maybe there is also support through non-fanatic members of both extremes (like wise-mages and nature-respecting industrialists)

Maybe this time the MAJOR objects of theft are experimental, technological devices and magical artifacts. Maybe the thief-guild plays an important role among the economies of the industrial side.

I suggest to plan the whole thing as a new trilogy, so this game could focus on stopping the magical side, which would otherwise accomplish some sort of mad plan - like summoning gods in order to destroy technological science or something... (in a way this would echo Thief 1, while creatin something new at the same time, which is the right combination in my opinion).



*
I´m not sure about that point: originally I only thought about additional steam-elements. But imagine a co-existance of spot-lights and rough-stone walls and swords (recently I saw a wine-cellar with modern, minimalistic, silver spotlights and rough, curved stone-ceilings. Maybe it works for Thief - maybe it doesn´t - in the end it does not influence the core of my story-line.
__________________

Corvin25
15th May 2009, 08:44
I don't like to post the same thing on 2 threads, but this is relevant. Dian and Larkspur are the current leaders of the pagans now... and they are without their god or nymph. The Builder and his disciples have literally "hammered" the Pagans to the point of desperation...

They cuts the vine and plucksie fruit
And never gives they anything back
The vine gives and gives all that it has
But now the vine will takes it back.

Dian and Larkspur are the current leaders of the pagans now... and they are without their god or nymph. The Wayward children of the Builder, the Mechanists, have returned to the Hammer, and now the Hammers have their technology. Mechanical eyes. Builder's Children (with new faces). STEAM ENGINES. Heavy auto-saws that can tear down trees faster than any axe. (but are mounted on wheels. No chainsaw massacre for you, Garrett.) Chemicals that can destroy plant life like the rust gas, but in a specific, controlled area.

The Builder and his disciples have literally "hammered" the Pagans to the point of desperation.

What if one or both of them decided that in order to compete with The Order of the Hammer... to preserve nature and carry out the Trickster's original vision for a perfect world... they would have to become immortal demigods themselves?? What if they decided that in order to survive, they would have to "advance" their power and magic as the Hammers have with technology and steel, thereby becoming masters of the very earth surrounding the city??

What if they brought the forest to the CIty (much like in LOTR: Two Towers), surrounding it and cutting off all supply caravans from farms and mines, thus causing it to starve and stagnate from within? What if, by utterly ruining city life as people know it, they would cause people to abandon the Hammers? Can steel and fire satisfy hunger and thirst? Can the Hammers truly BUILD anything without destroying something else for it? If the city wants to survive, they will have to do things the Pagan way. And those who don't will shrivel and die with their Builder.

This would be a great story of "restoring balance," in my opinion.

Planting trees and cracking walls will only get you so far, after all...

Icky6
15th May 2009, 12:55
Pardon if this has been said before, but I thought it definitely deserved its own thread.

To me, one of the most important things in a single player game is the story, and this is really what drew me to the Thief series. Both Karras and Constantine were interesting, unique villains. Even TDS had a story that was fairly well-crafted, although I'd say not as much as the others.

So this is just a simple request that a lot of time be taken to focus on the story. Because, oddly enough I think half of what Thief is about isn't... well, thieving.

tender19
15th May 2009, 15:01
I want a surprise :) Really, I'm not the writer of the Thief-games (but true, I'm a writer), but I want to enjoy this before I imagine things. It's because when I imagine things, is much better, than I get at the end, so... I'm not expecting anything. Make it great, epic with a not-caring point of view (every serious dialogue seemed real, but ridicolous at the same time, imagining what Garrett thinks), detailed story, but only by found clues, overheard dialogues... don't reveal much, but let me feel, that something big is going on. And surprise me with plot twists. That's all, I'm asking.

Nate
15th May 2009, 16:18
I still like the idea of the Hand Mages (and some greedy/short sighted nobles) trying to fill in the Keeper/Pagan/Hammer power vacuum since all three factions have declined. The Hand Mages can offer their own particular threat to the city.

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 16:21
I still think that since karass isn't dead he should at least make an appearance, if not be a key player in the next game.

Icky6
15th May 2009, 16:39
Wait how is Karras not dead?

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 16:57
At the end of thief 2 you can clearly see a hooded figure whose face is apparently rusting away, who quickly darts off the screen. Karass is the only person I could think of who might have made themself so mechanized as to be able to not be completely destroyed by the rust gas. It was -- probably-- a setup for the 3rd game by TTLGS, but since they never got to make Thief 3, and Ion Storm did, that string remains a loose end.

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 17:08
Actually, wait... I've watched the movie a few more times and just realized those are Garrett's fingers XD my bad...

I guess they could still bring him back, saying he was mostly machine before the gas went off... Sorry, I really thought that was a hooded person running away.

Iceblade
15th May 2009, 17:46
If you'll remember, even the machines had problems with that rust gas. Also Karras was pretty sealed up tight in Soulforge, and even as mechanized as he was, little of him would remain.

And going back to prior storylines would not be a good idea. Pagans are really weakened and the Hammers are still few in number and weak in influence. (Plus, how many mechanists would have returned to the order of the Hammer...very few would have wanted or been able to; a lot of mechanists joined due to popularity for the order of the gear not for religion reasons, those hammers that defected would not be allowed back in without some grueling repentance (and this is only for some) for committing heresy, and a large portion wouldn't want to join the Hammers to begin with.

Keepers are a bit of a wildcard as they (EM) could go any number of ways with these guys.

So with the big three so weakened, all of the factions are fairly equal: City Wardens/Thieves Guilds (those that survived Truart would have become quite powerful without their competition), Hammers, Keepers (without secrecy they are way weaker), Pagans (we have got to see some power return here cause they are almost gone as a faction, a return of Viky in one form or another would be great), the Hand Brotherhood (which could result in a necromancer plot...but I really don't see this as being the best for a main arc), the nobility (an overarching struggle for dominance with several gaining great power due to former Mechanist help....the technological know-how would not just disappear....there are going to be nobles who would hire these guys for their expertise...and don't forget that the Citus Amicus is still at large), and of course the Baron (who could return at anytime to consolidate control). Speaking of which, wouldn't it be great to rob the Baron's place finally...we've never had the chance to and it seems that FM authors are more scared of touching that place than they are of the keepers.

Hypevosa
15th May 2009, 17:57
well with the machines all that rust would probably end up snuffing out their furnace, but I do like your point about the fact that the 3 original power structures: Keepers, Builders and Pagans, have basically collapsed. The only ones with influence and power really are the thieves guilds and the nobles. Maybe a new player could be entered... as long as they don't pull an Indiana Jones and put aliens in it, I'll probably be OK with a new influence entering the arena.

If it follows thief 3 though, I definitely think there should be a story involving Garrett's newfound power, and someone who might wish to get it for themselves.

Limesneeker
15th May 2009, 19:10
Well i dont really know how the new plot should look like. But for me one thing is certain: it shouldnt focus on the same old factions - otherwise the same ideas would be repeated - there must be some natural progress.

At the same time there should be logical and plausible links between the old factions and the new things which will arrive....

DarthEnder
16th May 2009, 01:48
Not sure why you guys think Karras is all cybered out. You can see him walking around in his control room in soulforge and it's not like he has mechanical limbs. He's clearly just wearing a little armor.

When the gas went off, that guy was toast.

Nate
16th May 2009, 02:18
Hehe, Meca-Karras returns as a T800 Terminator programmed to kill Garrett......perfect!

ToMegaTherion
16th May 2009, 10:30
I would really like an avoidance of cheesy save-the-world plots as we saw in the previous three titles. They got old even during Dark Project! Some manner of political machinations in the complex (i.e. not just two old tired Hammer/Pagan factions) society of the City would be much more interesting, I think, for a plot to tie missions together.

Limesneeker
16th May 2009, 12:54
I would really like an avoidance of cheesy save-the-world plots as we saw in the previous three titles. They got old even during Dark Project! Some manner of political machinations in the complex (i.e. not just two old tired Hammer/Pagan factions) society of the City would be much more interesting, I think, for a plot to tie missions together.


agreed. But still, the plot should be of epic proportions with far reaching effects....

Platinumoxicity
16th May 2009, 13:09
Yeah, let's have some more down-to-earth ideas rollin'

What if some corrupt politicians hired Garrett to steal some precious relics from another nation's religious institutions (Getting tired of hammerite cathedrals) and fundamentalists would bring holy war to the city?

That story would be too short though. Garrett would only have to steal them back and return them.

huzi73
17th May 2009, 23:11
This is just my crappy idea...1st of all,Garrett wasnt trained as a thief,he was trained to be a keeper.How about Garrett training the girl from the TDS ending in the way of the keeper?Garrett is now all laid back and running the show as a keeper,dedicating his time to somehow regain the prophecies or whatever.Then,she finds out about his past,and becomes a thief.But in doing so,completely messes up the balance(re-obtaining the eye for the pagans?Not knowing it will resurrect the trickster?)then she ends up in a whole lotta crap and gets kidnapped.(this should all happen within the 1st half of the game)then,players continue as Garrett,who finds out from some lower level keepers that shes missing.Since Garrett had a soft spot for her,he goes looking for her through a series of eavesdropping/undercover missions.And at the end,a cliff hanger ending,with Garrett watching from the shadows,if he saves her,well and good,if he watches,she ends up being used as a sacrifice in order to resurrect Viktoria?But this decision may be linear,with Garrett making one of the two,instead of allowing the player to choose.Whether the Trickster reappears or not is debatable.Making the plot/story in this way will serve multiple purposes.
1:it will not ignore the little girl from TDS,
2:It will give old fans closure to the fact that they can still play as Garrett.
3:It will give us a chance to "sample" EM's take on the little girl
4:If fans like her,she will be the protagonist in T5,if they dont,T5 can continue with Garrett,at some later point clarifying by means of a "3 months earlier" cut scene,revealing exactly why Garrett was unable to rescue her.(and possibly also why he now wants nothing to do with the keepers,whom he worked so hard with in order to keep [excuse the pun...] them in existence).This way,all loose ends are tied up,mopping up the mess ION STORM created story wise...
What do you think?

Flashart
18th May 2009, 10:48
Agree with lots of that.I don't think you can give a choice at the end as you need a strong
platform to build T5 on.
Personally, I'd like a new faction/threat, with Garrett playing them all off against each other for "balance". It'd be nice to see Viktoria return, maybe at the end?
What I think was the problem with TDS is that it seemed to paint a lot of story into a corner,
which is why there's a lot of debate at the moment.
I couldn't see The Keepers going away quietly, but is retreading old ground with them any benefit?
For me I think a few new characters that still stand at the end of T4 would be good for the series and the FMs. The city must survive.

Platinumoxicity
18th May 2009, 12:48
The story should start immediately from the end of T3.

Child: "Let go of me!"
Garrett: "That's not for you."
Child: "Please, sir I'm hungry."
Garrett: "You have talent. It's no easy thing to see a... hehe... "keeper". Especially one who does not wish to be seen, hehe."
Child: "Let go of me!"
Garrett: "As you wish... Wait, here. Get yourself something to eat."

Child: "He gave me a purse full of gold. what a generous, strange man. I tried to catch up to him to say thanks but before I could lift my eyes from all the money he had vanished into the mist."

Garrett: "I do not hope that anyone has to take my position in the future. Partially because it brings danger and responsibility, but mostly because it brings competition to my game. :) "

Now that's how you reset the series and get a clean start without any children or true keeper mumbo-jumbo.

Yotun
18th May 2009, 13:10
I agree with the point about no more cheesy save-the-world stuff from this God, magical being, whatever. In a way I think Thief II had the best villain of all, because he was just a human being, and th story had layers of intrigue and conspiracy in it.

I also think they should not return to the hammers, pagans, and keepers. Those were three factions, for three games, and made a good closure to the trilogy. While they should be part of the world of Thief, I think they should not be its centre any more, and should allow for a new angle to it.

I also personally feel Garret's story is reaching closure - but I don't want to see him gone in Thief 4, or not be playable. What I would think would be a good idea, would be to introduce a new character, probably the boy/girl from the end of Thief 3, who you can play in a few missions, but not the majority of them. That way, you introduce the character, and if you have him/her be expertly constructed, make him acceptable to many of us old players, so that he can go on to become the main character in Thief 5. But if they just replaced Garrett altogether immediately, the change would seem forced to many of us. The introduction to the character and relation to thief should be given in the training mission and the introduction to it when describing the objectives. However IF there is to be a second character with Garrett, the relationship must be carefully constructed so as not to look out of line with Garrett's character. Garrett would NOT 'adopt' a child - he works and lives alone. He could potentially find a place for the child to stay, and 'look out for it', occasionally giving it tips - the training mission of the game, where Garrett takes the child to a mission to 'explain' basic thieving concept to it, could start with Garrett explaining how he's doing this once and once only.

___________________________________

Now as to the story itself. I want a story that moves away from supernatural Gods and monsters, and comes into the realms of humans. I would like to see a story that is centred on power plays, conspiracies, and intrigue among the main nobles and families in the city. The concept would be that the main centres of power in the city are gone, and new ones are coming to take their place. The hammers once held unquestioned power in the city, and the keepers oversaw it from the shadows, but now they're both weak, and others are building their power bases.

The idea would be to find out that many of the nobles in the city aren't as naive as may have been previously thought. That some of the greater families at least had their own networks, underground spies and perhaps even members with some mystical abilities - and that at least some of the most powerful players knew about the secrets of the city - the keepers, the plans of Karras, and though at times not yet powerful enough to stop these influences, were secretly building their own back-up plans, or pursuing their own conspiracies, while all the while expanding their influence and networks.

With the old trilogy having reached its conclusion, there has to be movement forward away from the old factions - and the story could reflect this in its narrative. The main villain to me would be a human, and his motives and thoughts could reflect the belief that for too long humans have looked to the past, on Gods, ancient glyphs, and sunken cities, instead of trying to take power with their own hands. He/She should reflect that ambition, cold logic, intrigue and secrecy can sometimes be more dangerous that Gods, or magic, or madness.

It could tie in well with Thief 5 and 6 where you realise further unfolding schemes that build on top of each other, from more secret and more clever adversaries. And this does not mean that the threat in the game could not be large and epic enough.

I have various ideas for potential scenarios. I imagine the city at war, filled with decease and starvation, driving people to thievery, or to join the military forces, and the nobles expanding their guard ranks. Garrett could find himself drawn into a political plot of intrigue without him wanting to, himself being treated as a pawn, and discovering that not everything is as it seems, that much of what seems natural is artificially kept for some to increase their strength, both militarily and economically, to achieve goals that are both grand in scope, but have consequences that are not to Garrett's liking. I'm not going to write down a full plot here, but you get the point.
What I do not want, is a simple plot of 'balance' between 'magic and technology'. I think we've had enough of those.

Corvin25
18th May 2009, 21:09
The Baron has returned, and has learned of all the things that have been happening in the city while he was away. Hammer/Pagan wars, chaos beast invasions, all life nearly being wiped out by cult leaders, and worst of all, keepers trying to run the city instead of him. Well he's suffered this long enough. It's time for him to take back the city.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88813

Yotun
18th May 2009, 22:31
I had a different idea in mind... Consider this.

I remember that in Thief II the baron was supposed to be off in a war. I thought perhaps the baron is still supposed to be in the war - which keeps going on, and starts harming the city, as food supplies become more scarce, resources are diverted to the war, and desperation, famine and decease spreads to the city.

But you find out - the baron is actually dead, assassinated in the war by an operative of one of the nobles. The war is not in fact going bad - the forces of the city are prevailing and victorious. The crisis is manufactured, as one great house is using forces to control food caravans and create an artificial shortage - while accusing allies of the city at war of blocking these caravans and supplies (while it will be found out in the game that the supposed allies of the enemies of the city are instead desperately through diplomatic means trying to ensure that they remain neutral in the conflict, and assure they have nothing to do with the blocked supplies).
The suppliers are secretly under the control of the great house, and the resulting inflation in prices, results in both them gaining the financial upper hand, and amassing a large contingent of guards and a small private army, of people who enter their service enticed by the pay they can offer, and the chance of improvement in their life. The house ensures the most loyal are brainwashed to absolute commitment to the house. The hammers have lost their strength and have been driven off from being major players in the city - they are now confined to their factories and forges, building weapons and armour which the prevailing house purchases. Meanwhile one faction in the hammers alligns itself more with the prevaling house - they pretend to remain commited to the Builder religion so as not to create tension in the existing power order, but instead are now building sophisticated war machines and equipment for the house. They have taken control of the prisons - and given that the desperation in the city has led to many people turning to crime, the prisons are full - and in some the prisoners converted to slaves working on war machines.

The army at war is taken over by the assasin, himself the son of the leader of the great house and one of the leading generals, who commands total respect and admiration of his soldiers. The rival city is eventually defeated, and the son sets himself as its ruler. Documents are 'discovered' that show how the rival city was allied with some of the noble houses in the city - these are in fact forgeries that the son uses to accuse the noble enemies of his house back in the city. A company is sent to return to the city, and once there, the ultimate plan is to proceed to take the city over under the pretext of restoring order, destroying the rival nobles and setting the house which is guiding this to the position of kings. Then they plan to relax their grip on the food caravans, and claim resonsibility for the turn in fortunes. This validates the brainwashing they did to their guard companies and creates an army absolutely loyal to them, while also making the commoners love them and commit to them. Then with the vast war arsenal assembled, and prepared propaganda of needing to take revenge on the allies of the enemies that created the crisis, - and which the glorious army of the city defeated - the head of the noble house, and now king, would proceed on a path of conquest and dictatorship, aiming to build an empire with the city as the hub and his house as lords. This is validated by his believes in the superiority of his house, that the wishes of those of noble blood take precedent over the lives of the commoners who will die in the process, and of the right of the city, as the most developed and powerful city in the world, to rule over others. The main villain would be this noble, a mix between a Hitler and Julius Caesar figure, and his son, the assassin of the baron, and now supreme general of the army at war, could make an appearance in another thief game. The plot could explicitly differentiate him from the previous villains and threats to the city too, to highlight the closure of the original trilogy. It could be found out that this house was aware through its connections of much of what was going on in the city - of the existance of the keepers, of the plans of karras, and was secretly buildings its own networks, back-up plans, and power base. It could be found out that the new villain has a contempt for those looking to the past, past Gods, past philosophies, past books and tomes, and that the rise to power of his house was made possible by the fact that the old powers that ruled the city lost their strength in the original trilogy. In that the main villain was always aware of what was going on and how those powers fell, and has utter contempt for them, would highlight him as a potentially much more serious threat, and of the potential of human ambition and belief in one's superiority to be much more dangerous and cruel than simplistic magical beings.

Garrett would initially have no interest in all of this, and for him, rulership by the baron or whomever other noble is irrelevant, as is whether others starve or not. However, he finds himself drawn into all of this, as he finds himself the target of the assassins of the house, and false accusations of stealing documents from the house. With his own life in danger, he is forced to find a way to end the schemes of the nobleman - and in another game, it could be relieved that the false charges were placed by another house, who played Garrett as a pawn to ensure the downfall of the main villain in this game, and to ensure its own survival and eventual rise.

I would personally much enjoy a storyline such as this, rather than a magical story about this God, or that magic wielding madman, and I think concepts such as war, propaganda, brainwashing of the army, extremist nationalism, and, in effect, fascism, are much more relevant to our world than any of the issues tackled by thief up to now.

Crypto
18th May 2009, 22:45
The return of the Keepers is crucial. They're too awesome to scrap. I'd love to see them conjure up some brilliant, twisted conspiracy to reassert themselves in the City. Even without the help of the glyphs, they're a force to be reckoned with.

Hmm. Maybe a corrupt group of Keepers is out to rediscover the glyphs for some sinister design. Maybe they've been hired by a cunning politician or foreign threat.

I'd also like to see the Hand Brotherhood play a central role. They're deadly, mysterious, and antisocial—great recipe for villainy. And the Downwind Thieves, or some thieving organization, could be interesting as an Ocean's Eleven–themed sideshow.

Oh, and we need to see the Baron.

EDIT: The Cursors! Back from hiding, technologically advanced ... delicious.

Yotun
18th May 2009, 22:52
I don't want the keepers back personally. I never liked them,or the idea of prophecy and everything being foretold...

Crypto
18th May 2009, 22:53
I don't care much for prophecy (and I believe they wouldn't be able to do that without glyphs), but I love their manipulative, cloak-and-dagger way of business.

Platinumoxicity
18th May 2009, 23:34
I always believed that the keepers were sort of weak and "powerless" and Garrett was the working representation of what they were always trying to be. The keepers never did anything, never influenced anything and never accomplished anything. They were powerless in front of their own prophecies, because prophecies aren't really prophecies if you can influence them and change the outcome.

Their fallacy was discovered in T3 and they were wiped out and the remains were sweeped under the rug. We should move on.

Hypevosa
18th May 2009, 23:49
I don't think they should disappear, I think that knowing of Garrett as the True Keeper, they would attempt to assist him still in some endeavors. So they'll probably pop up once more in the game (at least the head guy, whatever his name was) and end up dying in his defense.

Platinumoxicity
18th May 2009, 23:57
I don't think they should disappear, I think that knowing of Garrett as the True Keeper, they would attempt to assist him still in some endeavors. So they'll probably pop up once more in the game (at least the head guy, whatever his name was) and end up dying in his defense.

Some of us have a very different opinion of what a "true keeper" is. ;)

Jables_Kage
19th May 2009, 08:05
i personally think garrett is what makes the game so good, i dont want to be some apprentice or that girl from TDS. I want to be garrett!!!

Maethius
20th May 2009, 18:47
Thief 1 was really about the rise and fall of the Pagan = progress of nature/magic

Thief 2 was about the rise and fall of the Hammer (well, Mechanist) = progress of man/machine

Thief 3 was about the rise and fall of the Keepers = history/control

That being said, perhaps Thief 4 should portray the rise and fall of a force attempting to unify all of the above? The only other option is for the rise and fall of something entirely different, naturally. I think there are opportunities for either story to branch out of the lost past (vanished civilization beneath the City, the destroyed and zombie infested Old Quarter).

I don't see Garrett as becoming an avatar of the Keepers, but rather now being hunted equally by at least four faction; the Pagans (his use to them is ended), the Hammers (he's destroyed and blasphemed their whole culture!), the Keepers (he's exposed, embarrassed and betrayed them) and the City Watch (well... he does have about 5,000 crimes to answer for). Perhaps Garrett is going to start his own little guild, The Balance, or some-such, which stresses the use of all abilities (nature, constructs, and lore) to escape these influences and to undermine the rise of any and all of them.

Just a very vague thought.

Smooogy
20th May 2009, 19:31
I want the pagans, hammers and the keepers all to return, plus the addition of a fourth faction to spice up the story since the keepers have now lost all their knowledge

Aristofiles
3rd Jun 2009, 17:26
Garrett has turned old and retired... he have put his old lifestyle behind him and have settled down, the young girl he orphaned in deadly shadows have grown up and taken on his old title as a master thief of the city and since then thay have lost contact mutch like how Garrett himself turned away from his Keeper masters at a young age.

But his past will catch up on him once more....

Garretts old pupill turns up brutaly murdred and it turns out that she have given birth to a child who is now left in Garrets care. The child is kidnaped however and the kidnappers demand that Garrett uses his old skills once again to steal a golden scepter. Garrett preforms the task but is betrayed and framed.

through his search for clues Garrett will discover the identety of a mystic and secret society of wealty and influential nobles who will use all thier powers and stop at nothing to achive thier ultimate goal, imortality and eternal youth, even if it means the end of the entire city.

Once agin Garrett have been used as a pawn in the hands of evil. Once again he must save the city, himself and the only family he have left...

Alathanar
3rd Jun 2009, 18:39
At the end of Thief 3, the keeper order was left decimated. Their headquarters had been discovered. The glyphs, the source of the keepers powers, were gone, and with them, the library of knowledge and prophecies had been erased. The keepers themselves had been left with no choice but to disappear and go into hiding.

With no-one to maintain the balance, the animosity between the hammers and the pagans has escalated into all out war. A war that is threatening to rip the city apart.

Both sides view Garrett as a threat and they are hunting him. His hideouts are burned to the ground and each time he barely makes it out alive.

Garrett is left with no choice. He must restore the balance. He must reform the keepers.

He must reforge the first glyph....

Platinumoxicity
3rd Jun 2009, 20:53
At the end of Thief 3, the keeper order was left decimated. Their headquarters had been discovered. The glyphs, the source of the keepers powers, were gone, and with them, the library of knowledge and prophecies had been erased. The keepers themselves had been left with no choice but to disappear and go into hiding.

With no-one to maintain the balance, the animosity between the hammers and the pagans has escalated into all out war. A war that is threatening to rip the city apart.

Both sides view Garrett as a threat and they are hunting him. His hideouts are burned to the ground and each time he barely makes it out alive.

Garrett is left with no choice. He must restore the balance. He must reform the keepers.

He must reforge the first glyph....

I thought that the lesson of TDS was that the City finally grew up from having to rely on magical glyphs and sinister controllers to keep itself from falling apart. Now that there are no glyphs or prophecies, the balance is even harder to break since the keepers are not there to try to influence everything and accidentally taffing everything up.

Alathanar
3rd Jun 2009, 21:16
The lesson I took from Thief 3 was "who watches the watchers"? We have seen that the keepers themselves were not immune to corruption...will the hammers or pagans be any better if left to their own devices?. They each hold incompatible beliefs...and sooner or later they will have to confront one another. Neither side will be willing to concede ground to the other...conflict is inevitable.

Nothke
13th Jun 2009, 17:58
Now, this is kind of just for fun, but you all say:
"How will the story continue?"
"It's over, Garrett has a complete story!"
"If they continue, it should have to be a different protagonist, not Garrett"
"Ah, if they make another charachter it's going to be so stupid!"
"The whole story begins and ends the same, it's finished!!!"

well, the simplest thing you can do, keep Garrett, and the story "on line" is to make Garrett loses memory somehow, and you start from the begining... huh, simple...

kabatta
13th Jun 2009, 18:16
*thump*
12 hours pass...
Garrett: Who am I? *sees a piece of broken glass* UUUUUUUU.....shiny! I must take it!

Later that day he wanders into a manor:
Garrett: more shiny things!
Guard: stop right there, thief!
Garrett(blisfully not noticing the guard): another shiny thing...and another...
Guard(anoyed): Garrett, you taffer! Look at me when I'm talking to you!
Garrett(looks around for the guy, then looks at the guard): who now?
Guard: You, you taffin burrick of a man!
........
*things get blurry around here*

Hamadriyad
13th Jun 2009, 18:31
*thump*
12 hours pass...
Garrett: Who am I? *sees a piece of broken glass* UUUUUUUU.....shiny! I must take it!

Later that day he wanders into a manor:
Garrett: more shiny things!
Guard: stop right there, thief!
Garrett(blisfully not noticing the guard): another shiny thing...and another...
Guard(anoyed): Garrett, you taffer! Look at me when I'm talking to you!
Garrett(looks around for the guy, then looks at the guard): who now?
Guard: You, you taffin burrick of a man!
........
*things get blurry around here*
:D really funnny

lefty
13th Jun 2009, 23:02
The amnesia thing has been done in pretty much every game sequel ever.

jtr7
13th Jun 2009, 23:04
And every long-running television series. It's usually a cop-out for writers who have run out of ideas.

Nothke
14th Jun 2009, 00:55
And every long-running television series. It's usually a cop-out for writers who have run out of ideas.

exactly, that is why i'm joking

jtr7
14th Jun 2009, 01:49
I figured you were, but being on a public forum, one never knows who will take it seriously. :p

Nate
14th Jun 2009, 02:44
Amnesia???? You're serious????

Amnesia is for people who can't write a story beyond a primary school level (here's looking at you LucasArts!!!)

ToMegaTherion
14th Jun 2009, 09:48
Amnesia is a useful tool in video games when you are throwing a character into a situation where they ought to know what's going on, but of course the player doesn't know. Don't think it's too useful in sequels except for desperation.

Belboz
14th Jun 2009, 11:51
I was thinking about the first game where the keepers trapped the Trickster with glyph magic with a fake eye, the keepers may have lied to garrett about the fake eye being able to kill a god, with the keeper glyphs now gone, then the trickster would be able to escape from the trap as the trap that traps him would no longer exist, and as the tricksters is a god that uses the olde magic before glyphs he could use that magic to resurrect viktoria, as most of the magic seemed to be creation and destruction magic, as opposed to the keeper glyphs that seem to write mainly prophercy, and do some other stuff as well. As the pagans have carried on worshipping the tricksy lord then he would already have latent power awaiting him from all that sacrifice and worship.
Then on the Hammerite side you could have the emergence of the rebirth of the builder, or thou this builder is actually a fake, a puppet actually controlled by the recently released trickster.
As a side option you could have the thieves guild being controlled by a powerful merchant from the east, and varing for underhanded control of the city using the thieves guild to do stuff and point the blame elsewhere like at garrett or at undermining the control of the lords and baron if the city state. And this merchant is some how in partnership with the pagans who want to return the city to grass and forrest. Then there's the barron and some of the other lord who were away attacking some other city state, as mensioned by the citizens of the city in the first two games, which was missing in the third game, the rumour was that the barron was loosing the war, so you could also add that there are forign troops in the city trying to take control of the city as well. Then in the middle you've got garrett trying to sort this mess out, or just profiting from the mess up to a point then having to sort all the mess out.

Flashart
14th Jun 2009, 12:13
A new "Hammerite" priest initiates an "Inquisition" against the former Keepers, gathering sensitive information about the city, it's factions and politics. A weakened Pagan army kidnap the Baron to use as a bargaining chip against the cities poilce/military, maybe using the Lost City as a base.
A "priest/wizard/magician" threatens the city with a plague of undead/disease from the catacombs of the ruined Soulforge.
Now, if I could only tie these three together somehow...

fayfuya
14th Jun 2009, 18:59
I'm not ready to play ANY other character instead of Garrett, no Thief without Garrett and i don't give a damn about that girl, you can create a plot that she becomes the main enemy in Thief 4 or something i don't care about her as long as i play Garrett.....or another young man, maybe Garrett's young brother that he never knew of or something...but come on....no Garrett....no Thief.

fayfuya
14th Jun 2009, 19:01
WAIT I GOT A BRILLIANT IDEA, old Garrett doesn't wish to die, so he steals from somewhere somekind of a time machine or a age-killer machine that turns him into a young oily Thief again!...then the real game begins or something...

Psi Yamaneko
14th Jun 2009, 19:32
The plot line intended for T2 Gold could make for an interesting basis. What with the Necromancers and the Balmoraal and everything.

Acorn
23rd Jun 2009, 22:49
I agree with the natural progress idea. And Thief isn't THIEF without Garrett as the main character.
[ The girl could fade in the background, she choses to be the new first keeper in a new organization with.. no glyphs, that just watches and records history. And we rarely see her. She could be Garrett's new contact in the Keepers.. She doesn't have to take Garrett's place as a thief, or be his sidekick which is probably worse.. Garrett is not Batman and doesn't need a Robin. ]

There are still several Angles that are under-explored in the Thief saga.

The nobles and city power politics has not been explored very far at all.
The Baron who rules the city is only mentioned a couple of times, for one thing.
He has supposedly been away in a war a long time.
Questions that rise about him:
Who has ruled while he was away? Are they still in power?
How would they feel when/if he returns to take over again?
What about the war? Is it over? Is it escalating? Who is he at war with and why?
There could be stories and missions based on this and intrigue between the nobles. Also wealthy merchants that aspire to Nobility.

I remember also liking the guard missions and learning about some of these people. Mosely and Truart for instance.
Part of the game plot could involve whoever is in charge of the city watch now and who they back or who backs them among the nobles. There could be new missions involving the city watch and their political entanglements.

The story could also, as suggested, explore/involve the precursors or their items.

Also, the thieves guild:
Is there a new leader of the thieves guild?
Does he aspire to power in the city? Does he want Garrett taken out for not joining the guild?
Maybe it involves items he has found in the lost city?
A magic item that has gained control of him, or that gives him power?
Then you could go to the pagans who maybe turn out to be the descendants of the precursors and have some lore that explains it a bit.
Or the Hammers have something that the Builder said about it.

The Builder is also under explored in the game. Some of the things that it is written he did or ordered may have to be undone. Or re-done.
The Hammers, instead of standing around at their cathedrals could go places and perform rituals. or have some sort of parade down the street and then a hellfire and brimstone sermon in the town square, drawing people you can pickpocket. They need to hammer down a pagan holy site. Make some trouble.

The Pagans need a new leader who does something as well. They need to dance around a bonfire or something and make a sacrifice, not just stand around all the time. Or give the Burricks a "snackrifice". What if they have a new god.. a water/sea god or nymph? How about putting them out in the woods in hidden villages again, instead of in town.

How about adding an assassins guild? And then Garrett pisses them off..

citywolfdreams
24th Jun 2009, 04:42
Because I think it fits and I want to get more feedback I´m posting my story suggerstion in this thread again:
.
As I said before, I think in order to continue the style of the series, it is important to create a storyline which is designed as a TRILOGY - even if the other parts will never be realised, it would create appropriate depth (again each part would highlight one of three (fanatic) factions)

So this are my ideas:



after the disappearance of the glyphs INDUSTRIALISATION got more and more powerful. The development caused that the trickster got a myth- the townsfolk started to think of him again as a never-existant fairy-tale character.
Even among the Hammers, mystics and priests, who believed in the Builder as actual god become only a few, the "mainstream-hammers" started to belief only in men and technology-some sort of a dark version of humanists. Unlike the Trickster, the Builder was never really manifest anyway.

Because of that,obvious magical phenomena (divine powers of hammer-priests included) got rarer,so that the common belief in gods and greater-forces vanished.



Economy, technology and money got more dominant and this caused corruption, poverty and disrespect for nature to get more dominant than ever.

Maybe the seperation even caused that the different districts look like different time periods: the poor districts remain in a dark-middle-age-state, while the rich-district represents an industrialized art-déco civillization - so progress is limited to the rich. (Through that idea, (minor or major?*) technological progress (relatively to Thief 1-3) could be integrated without harming the dark middle-ages elements)

So what does this technological extreme cause?

"Mystical/magical extremists" on the other side. United by the common goal to reassamble faith and belief in greater forces among the people of the city, hammer and pagan priests unite (though hostility remains) and ask the mages guild for support, which kept its secrecy during the whole development.
They hope that by making the existence of magic public, faith will be reastablished.
Maybe this causes internal conflicts among the mages guild as well. Pagans hope to summon forces of chaos with the help of mages, while hammer priests want to make it clear, that technology comes from forces other than men, namely the builder.


So we have materialistic, narrow-minded, atheistic technocrats, who would industrialize everything and dominate society on one side and a secret, UNDERGROUND group which contains magic, crazy mystics and god-worshipping, on the other side. Of course, the magic-side is too extreme as well, because they want to create a world order in which people are suppressed by priests and gods.


So again, keepers have to keep balance, this time between Magic and Technology. Because glyphs are gone, there tools are a combination of magic and technology (which is appropriate for the middle), maybe there is also support through non-fanatic members of both extremes (like wise-mages and nature-respecting industrialists)

Maybe this time the MAJOR objects of theft are experimental, technological devices and magical artifacts. Maybe the thief-guild plays an important role among the economies of the industrial side.

I suggest to plan the whole thing as a new trilogy, so this game could focus on stopping the magical side, which would otherwise accomplish some sort of mad plan - like summoning gods in order to destroy technological science or something... (in a way this would echo Thief 1, while creatin something new at the same time, which is the right combination in my opinion).



*
I´m not sure about that point: originally I only thought about additional steam-elements. But imagine a co-existance of spot-lights and rough-stone walls and swords (recently I saw a wine-cellar with modern, minimalistic, silver spotlights and rough, curved stone-ceilings. Maybe it works for Thief - maybe it doesn´t - in the end it does not influence the core of my story-line.
__________________

This sounds really awesome! Both ends of society provide interesting settings to explore (and steal from) and the way you described the evolution of City Life seems very natural... one might almost say the logical conclusion of what Looking Glass intended.

Acorn
24th Jun 2009, 12:53
Ok, heres my fan plot. ;D Mine is a less magical alternative..

The Baron returns from the war victorious and receives a hearty but not well meant greeting from the nobles. The common people line the streets and cheer though, being commoners.

Lord Bafford, who has been regent of the Lords council in the Baron's absence, greets the Baron and bows with a false smile, as do the rest of the Nobles. Garret watching from up in the dark rafters because he wanted to get a look at this guy.
The Baron and Nobles discuss the war and the baron getting back to running the city. All of a sudden an assassin enters through a window not far from Garrett. The hooded figure creeps along a beam and then begins getting his weapon together. Garrett looks back down at the party goers [inner monologue about the situation] Looks back at the assassin. Looks down at which one he/she could be aiming at. All of a sudden Lady so-and-so who has had a bit much to drink, trips in front of the Baron and takes an arrow in the back. The assassin flees through the window as someone hits the alarm and emergency lights light the rafters. Garrett is seen as he tries to make it to the window.
Mission: flee over the roof tops with all city guards being alerted [by gongs] and make it to your safehouse.

Thats all I got so far... this could be part of a story involving magic though.

fraten
24th Jun 2009, 15:28
well with the machines all that rust would probably end up snuffing out their furnace, but I do like your point about the fact that the 3 original power structures: Keepers, Builders and Pagans, have basically collapsed. The only ones with influence and power really are the thieves guilds and the nobles.

I do like that idea very much. In every part of Thief Garrett brought back the balance of all powers. So of course in Thief4 Garrett has to cope with another party. I would like to see that Sherriff Truart (eh, his successor) is planning something evil.

tarhiel
26th Jun 2009, 14:12
I was also thinking about the story.
We know that Keepers no longer exists- all thier glypths from ther precious books vanished, Garret fullfilled the prophercies- has a mark on his hand. Thus, keepers are history, and I don´t wanna have them in T4. No ressureciotn of keepers, please.And no ressurection of Trickster either.

But Garret has a new apprentice- that girl in the very last custcene from T3. So maybe, she can be the main character of the game, instead of Garret, who is older (let´s say in his 30 or more). I don´t know how about you guys, but i feel, his sotry is told and closed with T3. But I would like to have him as a tutor, or master, who train you, and you come to him for advices. And it might not be bad to have one mission (one of the final ones) where he have to help you with stelaing, creating diverison for you in really hard mission (of course, he would be completely controlled by PC.).

OR- Garret sill would be main character, but authors will let some backdoors opened for Thief 5, where that girl would be main character (Garret doesn´t have to necesarilly die). By backdoor opened I doesn´t mean, by all means, unfinished plot in T4. Plot of Thief 4 should have been a closed one (just like Thief one - they just told you at the end of prophercy in some book (you didn´t really knew this all the game long), and, de facto, plot of T1 was closed).

Acorn
26th Jun 2009, 17:53
The kid doesn't have to chose to become a thief. She can be the future leader of the keepers. And the Keepers still exist, they just don't have glyph magic or prophesies anymore. They record true history (as opposed to that written by the victors) and watch what really goes on. They still have stealth magic, just like Garrett.

This way the Keeper faction still exists as a non-interference faction like they seemed in the beginning. Garrett basically would leave her with them to raise and Garrett probably taught her some things about stealth. I don't see Garrett raising her like a daughter. But to be a thief? He said she was a KEEPER so I think he more likely dumped her off with the remaining keepers. She could be in her teens by T4.

tarhiel
10th Jul 2009, 23:27
Acorn,

Keepers ceased to exist completely, because they heave no meaning now. They had to preserve history, yes, but only as those, who watch so that dark age woudn´t not come. In all previous games, they are the catalists (not pagans, not hammerites), who pulled the story onwards, because of the prophercies, which has yet to be fulfilled, but now the are no longer needed. And besides, what kind of history they would preserve, if their books was empty, after Garret activated the final glyph (in final video in TDS)? No, keepers ARE history.

You are right about that kid- she doesn´t have to become thief, but maybe she will be the only thing in virual world Garret cares about (Victoria, Artemus, both died), the only thing he would love (as a friend, or parent).
Actually, I never really understand that girl at the end (It is one of those "sucks" hint for other developers to continue, but, luckily, it is the only hint form TDS game at all, if I remember correctly. )- I know, she is like memory of Garret- she spokes exactly those lines, as Garret spoke in first video in TDP, when he was young pocket thief in streets, and met Artemus (at least I think it was Artemus), she bears resemblance to him because of her live as pocket thief. And Garret then speaks exactly the words of Artemus from the very same video. So it is quite natural, that fans thinks she will become his apprentice.

But I correct my previous post in this Thread:I WANNA GARRET BACK!!!

jtr7
10th Jul 2009, 23:38
...................

gryphos
13th Jul 2009, 04:16
Whatever is done with the girl, I don't think that you can exclude her from some dramatically important role in the next one - it would be sloppy storytelling to introduce something significant at the end and then ignore it completely in the next turn.

As for Garrett... I don't see him changing the momentum of a lifetime over night to become the "loving hero" and "hopeless romantic". But I don't see him remaining unchanged by the events of the last three games either. He may not want to admit it, but he has been faced three times with an upper and a lower road to take, and has in all three cases chosen to stick around rather than cut an run when it got too messy. He IS a hero, though, a complex one. I don't think you can throw that out, though as I see it, you have to weigh the momentum of his comfortable selfishness and greed with the deeper principles that led him to first join the Keepers and become their best before becoming so angry at their complacence that he left.

jtr7
13th Jul 2009, 04:38
.......................

Platinumoxicity
13th Jul 2009, 07:35
Whatever is done with the girl, I don't think that you can exclude her from some dramatically important role in the next one - it would be sloppy storytelling to introduce something significant at the end and then ignore it completely in the next turn.


The girl in the end of TDS is no good storytelling, it's not sloppy storytelling, not significant, not a major plot twist. She's simply a trap. Ion Storm had no intentions to continue the series, and they wanted to make sure that nobody else would either, so they cut 30 seconds of extra footage to the end that would make it extremely hard for a sequel to stay true to the series because of the "introduction" of something that really doesn't belong to Thief.

Mwahahahahaa! You can never make a better Thief game than I did because Garrett has to take a sidekick now! -Warren Spector laughed and said with an evil tone right before recieving a note of Ion Storm's bankrupcy.

ToMegaTherion
13th Jul 2009, 08:13
Since it isn't the same people doing the story, they can do whatever they like, including ignoring previous things if they get in the way.

FriendlyStranger
13th Jul 2009, 08:56
The girl in the end of TDS is no good storytelling, it's not sloppy storytelling, not significant, not a major plot twist. She's simply a trap. Ion Storm had no intentions to continue the series, and they wanted to make sure that nobody else would either, so they cut 30 seconds of extra footage to the end that would make it extremely hard for a sequel to stay true to the series because of the "introduction" of something that really doesn't belong to Thief.

Mwahahahahaa! You can never make a better Thief game than I did because Garrett has to take a sidekick now! -Warren Spector laughed and said with an evil tone right before recieving a note of Ion Storm's bankrupcy.

That' a load of serious bs sry. Your and many other's problem is, that you only take one kind of storytelling into account. The classic continous plot. Example: Garrett gets born - "joins" the Keepers - Splits from the Keepers - Saves City from Constantine (Constantine gone) - Saves City from Karrass (Mechanists gone) - Fulfills The Prophecies (Glyphs gone) - Takes an apprentice (Now has Sidekick) - and so on.

What you do NOT take in account are all the other ways to write a game story - flashbacks, prequels, alternate history (what would have happened if Constantine wasn't betrayed in TDP...). I could cope with that, if you (not you in special Platinum) wouldn't try to force this view upon others. You don't say "I think the glyphs are gone" you say: "The glyphs ARE gone". I don't like that, let others have their ideas too please.



Since it isn't the same people doing the story, they can do whatever they like, including ignoring previous things if they get in the way.

I agree.

Platinumoxicity
13th Jul 2009, 11:10
What you do NOT take in account are all the other ways to write a game story - flashbacks, prequels, alternate history (what would have happened if Constantine wasn't betrayed in TDP...). I could cope with that, if you (not you in special Platinum) wouldn't try to force this view upon others. You don't say "I think the glyphs are gone" you say: "The glyphs ARE gone". I don't like that, let others have their ideas too please.


No, actually it's the "girl-in-the-end-of-TDS"-syphatizers who can't stand the idea of another kind of continuity. They can't see how the story could continue in any other way because their interpretation is the quickest, easiest and most likely one. When you think of all that could happen, you need to examine the whole storyline, not just the very end of the trilogy in order to think of possible scenarios.

I'm not really saying that everything I say is the exact truth. I'm just semi-seriously trying (And doing a very bad job at it) to change the minds of those who see the "sidekick/character change" as the only possible continuation, because they can't take into account anything besides the very end in their in their imaginings.

Basically, my idea of the story starting point is that "If 90% of the players of the previous installment can predict quite precisely how the story continues in the sequel, the story of the sequel is not clever enough." ;)

I didn't have any idea what "The dawn of the Metal Age" meant back then, and then I got something magnificent.

Flashart
13th Jul 2009, 11:34
I'd like some sort of continuation to the story, we've had 3 games worth so to tear it down now seems a little pointless. I'd also like the girl mentioned in T4,(even if she TAKES NO OTHER PART in the game). It just helps keep that continuation flowing. Similarly, if Garrett had grown a large glowing mushroom on the end of his nose at the end of TDS, and it wasn't there in T4, I'd like to know where it went.
There's no reason why the story need be "painted into a corner" as TDS pretty much wound up a lot of issues. I would however, like an acknowledgment of what has happened previously.

FriendlyStranger
13th Jul 2009, 12:03
I'm not really saying that everything I say is the exact truth.

Ok, I misinterpreted then - sry. But I didn't want to critize you in special. I just thought to glimpse this " I'm an expert, so shut up attitude " I witnessed a few days ago in some threads here...

Platinumoxicity
13th Jul 2009, 13:03
Ok, I misinterpreted then - sry. But I didn't want to critize you in special. I just thought to glimpse this " I'm an expert, so shut up attitude " I witnessed a few days ago in some threads here...

I don't think anyone honestly does that, unless they are trying to educate genuine idiots about simple basics. Mostly they're just trolling. Like me.

FriendlyStranger
13th Jul 2009, 15:15
Mostly they're just trolling. [SIZE="1"]

ah ok.

zombie32
16th Jul 2009, 03:27
About 10 years ago a major gaming magazine held monthly contests for game designs by readers. I thought of a game where you played the head doctor of an abortion clinic. I called it "Womb Raider". The story involved your clinic surrounded by militant, machine-gun wielding Christians out to crucify you. You were locked inside for your own safety when all the lights went out, and the souls of thousands of babies you murdered began wailing and chasing you through the building as you vainly searched for an escape route. For this advanced idea I never even received an honorable mention! Do you really really think I ought to be the guy to design the new Thief game??

jtr7
16th Jul 2009, 03:30
......................

anderman51
7th Aug 2009, 22:08
The status of the City currently is that the Pagans have been weakened by the death of Viktoria and the banishing of the Trickster. I refuse to believe the Trickster is dead, merely forced back to his realm for the time being. The Hammerites have lost a brilliant (if insane) brother in Karras. The Keepers have lost their power with Garrett being the True Keeper. By leaving the Keepers initially Garrett has shown that he has no desire to direct the events of the City like some puppeteer.

This will create a void that I could see the story's antagonist fill. Without the Keepers there to keep a watchful eye on things forces that were normally subdued are free to do as they will. An entity that manipulates the factions of the City for their own personal gain. The only thing standing in the way would be Garrett.

I don't see the Keepers leaving the story either. They may have lost their abilities to read into future events, but they still have knowledge of the past that Garrett will need. Also, what forces have been freed now that the Glyphs have lost their power?

jtr7
7th Aug 2009, 22:18
...................

the_steved
20th Aug 2009, 17:01
I had already post this before but here it goes again... Garrett should train the girl and she eventually becomes a bad thief just like he was but even worse. She could try to revive trickster or vicktoria (even if she was nice) for evil purposes or something like that and Garrett has to foil her plan before it's too late. The possibilities are endless you could do a race to an artifact where winning gives you an edge on a future mission somekind of side quest. Tell me what you think!

Herr_Garrett
20th Aug 2009, 17:07
Tell me what you think!

I think it sucks no end.

the_steved
20th Aug 2009, 17:17
I think it sucks no end.

lol you're funny!

Do you really need an ending to make a plot... anyways i was simply giving an idea of where to start from... if you want to add something please do... I just think that since TDS ends with the girl, she should have a part to play in the next game OR she should be a turning point during the last missions of the game! You want an ending GARRET DIES... happy!??

minus0ne
20th Aug 2009, 17:42
I think, no, hope, Eidos Montreal took one or several writers on board at the start of T4 development. These people are professional writers, we are not.

lol you're funny!
I don't think he was kidding.

kin
20th Aug 2009, 17:56
Tell me what you think!
Thank god EM has finished with the story.

the_steved
20th Aug 2009, 21:22
Thank god EM has finished with the story.

Danm tough crowd... sheesshhh

imperialreign
20th Aug 2009, 22:38
my thoughts: http://ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1576706#post1576706

bribri86
21st Aug 2009, 13:33
The coming of the One True Keeper, which we wait for with dread???

I'm game for that.

Davehall380
21st Aug 2009, 13:48
Theres a whole community of ideas out there - I cant wait to see what angel the devs take on this topic (because I have a sneaky feeling that what they do choose just might alienate some people)

esme
21st Aug 2009, 17:16
they should already have the basic story outline sorted, they'd need at least that much to get budget approval, anything we can suggest that might get picked up would be refinements, in game features or perhaps side stories

Herr_Garrett
21st Aug 2009, 18:36
I feel a great disturbance on the Forum. I think this thread will be merged... soon.

jtr7
21st Aug 2009, 21:48
The story they start with will morph and grow and shrink and adapt throughout the development. 'Tis the way of things. :)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
22nd Aug 2009, 00:32
I feel a great disturbance on the Forum. I think this thread will be merged... soon.

Yes, just as the prophecy foretold. Done. ;)

Secondary
24th Aug 2009, 18:49
I really like this one (*rubs hands together...cracks knuckles, etc*)

the thief games revolve alot around the prophecies scribed by the keepers, I see no reason why that should stop and I do see to possible directions for that plotline to go in.

1. since Garret is the one true keeper, the other keepers have been dissolved...so is no one scribing prophecies/ what happens if Garret outlives the keeper prophecies?

2. or, in the previous games Artemus hints to Garret that the volumes of keeper prophecies are enormous and TDS never says that the dark age was the end of the prophecies. so if we assume there are more and the books are in Garrets possession we ahe a potential plotline. now, weve seen what happens when Garret forces the hand of prophecy (the clokctower mission in TDS, he effectively brings about the fullfilment of a prophecy by himself), but what would happen if Garret learned something from the tomes and tried to PREVENT a prophecy from being fullfilled?

jtr7
24th Aug 2009, 23:13
There are no glyphs, no glyph magic, so therefore, no glyph prophecies. In Orland's last scene, he tells us the prophecies stopped. They couldn't see what was coming, nor could they see past it, but finally guessed the correct course of action. Garrett's main role as One True Keeper is over, he did what the other Keepers could/would not, and kept the Balance which meant the end of the Keepers "forever", as the game tells us. It will seem like forever before the glyphs come back. The storyline can still continue, but the Keepers will not be manipulating anybody according to hints and bold passages they read in the glyphs, anymore, and they are not the only ones who can foretell the future, not the only ones who manipulate, and not the only ones who can use magic. If it's a sequel within Garrett's lifetime, it will be different, but potentially new and exciting, while not ignoring the previous events, but using the handicaps the story imposed to put the Keepers in new but familiar roles. A Keeper could still find prophecy in another seer's visions, and there are many other people who have prophetic visions. All the factions can still exist, but they are all balanced now. They should remain so for some time, and there are plenty of other minor factions that can rise up, and the balanced major factions can stand up against them with the protagonist as their ultimate and almost unwilling weapon.